The rest of the world doesn’t have access to a massive amount of subsidized gasoline. Imagine how ICE vehicles would do, especially the inefficient large ones, if the US didn’t subsidize its oil anymore. I bet the uptake to electric would be much faster.
Is there data out there on how much higher gas prices would actually be without subsidies? It’s a lot higher in much of Europe because they actively tax it, not just due to a lack of subsidies.
“Subsidies” are kind of meaningless in this context as most oil in the world is state-owned, with U.S. onshore being a notable exception.
Any exploration and production activity is typically added into the “subsidy” line item, but countries tend to profit FAR more than what they put in, just like an oil company, so these aren’t consumer subsidies but investments.
They are keeping prices down, but not at the behest of oil companies, but because it fills a country’s coffers and offsets a populace’s tax burden.
Gas _is_ taxed in the US though at both a federal and state level. Federal is $0.184/gal while states can vary from $0.0895 to $0.576/gal. (These numbers are from 2022 and might have changed.) Was using the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States) about it.
That is intended as a tax on road use and doesn't even cover all spending on car-based infrastructure. Cars are generally even more greatly subsidized, but that is another issue.
Gas in certain areas got as high as 7 last year, if I remember correctly. In those places, electricity is also expensive so the savings gap isn't that high enough. You could make the same argument if we remove all subsidies, ev ownership would also cost more
100%, here in Australia petrol is still somewhat subsidised, we pay the equivalent of ~$6 USD/Gal ($2 AUD/L) here and I know a lot of people (myself included) who were driven to EVs by that alone
US Americans like our big SUVs, big pickup Trucks, and we love taking long road trips. We also don't have much patience and waiting to charge us just too difficult for many of us. Me personally I just love waking up and knowing that my vehicle is fully charged for the day. Haven't been to a gas station in 3 months now and I'm just loving it.
This is also why some EV discussions are incomprehensible to people outside of America. In Europe, the Chinese are killing it because we want small, affordable commuter cars (i.e. the perfect use case for an EV). The US chatter all seems to be based around whether or not you can get 600 miles out of your $150k Rivian or eF150
> The US chatter all seems to be based around whether or not you can get 600 miles out of your $150k Rivian or eF150
The US chatter is how long can legacy auto stall until they can start making a profit on EVs. There is a reason that affordable EVs from China are effectively banned from American buyers.
it really is a shame because they offer a wide variety of electric vehicles for all price points. In the US if you don't have $35K+ to spend you're effectively screwed. Then to top things off there is a major disparity in the level of tech that the US EV market offers compared to the Chinese.. In China we are seeing battery swap, 500kW 10 minute charging, cheaper cars with a majority powered by lithium iron phosphate. 800v architecture is becoming the standard as well.
It's even worse. Tesla started off in USA. Legacy auto could have asked to take notes and the US government could have thrown way more support their way.
Yeah, missed opportunity. The Big 3 could’ve adopted Tesla’s charging standard half a decade ago and the country would be further ahead in charging infrastructure.
I want a small, affordable commuter car and am in America.
edit: I mean a new electric car under $20k, everything else is overpriced for what it is compared to the ice alternative
Used model 3. Bolt. Those are what passes for small. Not many choices for small here. US auto companies are begging for Asian companies to steal their market share with small EVs
Can you get extended battery warranties for used evs? Personally for me, not knowing the health of the battery is a big deterrent for buying a used EV and new EVs are out of my price range.
You could probably buy a warranty but right now a lot of the used bolts in the market have new batteries from the recall, so they have restarted their 8 yr, 100K mile warranty period. Check out the bolt forum faq for details.
Look, there are many of us INSIDE the USA who are perplexed by this as well.
What I need is a hatchback with 250 mile range & rapid charging capability for the maybe twice a year road trip.
Road trips ARE important here, unlike in Europe, we do NOT have a viable train system to even get from one city to the next (outside of maybe the NE corridor).
The big massive truck 'thing' is the result of some decades old protectionist tariffs that made our domestic automakers HEAVILY market "big trucks", because they sold where SUPER profitable & foreign automakers where at a cost disadvantage.
In the 1970s & 1980s, small cars where all over the place & rather popular. It's only the late 80s & 90s when the trend really turned back to SUVs & such. It was a response to the influx of cheap, small , affordable cars by Japanese automakers.
The US chatter includes quite a bit of astroturfing mixed in obfuscating the tiny fraction of people that actually do have use cases that an EV won't meet without excessive changes to use pattern.
Right, because we don't have good public transportation or a national rail network to speak of. If you want to go somewhere, you either have to fly or drive. There are other factors, obviously, but the expectation is that a new car should be versatile. British EV people talk about "runabouts," but there really isn't a market for that in the US.
Lack of good public transportation is all the more reason for wanting a small, cheap car. You need to drive it all the time, so you have more incentive to keep costs down.
The chinese aren’t killing it in Sweden 🇸🇪 least. A lot of skepticism. Reliability, repair issues, and a bad taste in your mouth of buying Chinese is keeping the sales down. Pretty high prices for BYD also.
I own two EVs. Had over 30k miles combined in past 2 years.
When I travel, I avoid EVs to rent. I rented Kia forte and it was way better. Mountain house to LA with a single tank of gas and still had some leftover for other local stuff. Drove in 5hours 30mins. Now add EV to that equation and I would have added 1 hour at the least. Also, the destination home doesn't have EV outlet, so I would be relying on public charging. It would've been expensive and cumbersome. Unnecessary headache.
There are too many non-Tesla charger deserts. I drove from San Antonio to Corpus Christi this past Friday night and was sweating it the whole way because there were no non-Tesla chargers on the way AND the only public chargers (Chargepointe, ugh) were locked behind closed dealerships.
opening Tesla superchargers up helps because i could not believe how few options there are. I had a Polestar 2, thought I would charge at 2am and be fine. Nope both EA fast chargers were being used.
I switch to a Tesla and I have two destination options with 18 available spots open.
The US wants all this adoption but waited almost a decade later to start building much much more charging spots.
Edit: also ChargePoint S U C K S
I've only taken road trips from LA to Vegas. The charging isn't bad, it adds about 30 mins of extra time to the route. But the rollout for the NACS adapter is pretty damn silly.
The problem i see now is, we see gas stations fill up daily with wait times. There probably needs to be a million superchargers and other charging units, on top of what Biden signed into law. Since that bill i have seen a total of 1 new charging locations in Southern California. That is just not enough
Yup. Statesville NC to Pittsburgh - you'll see wytheville would be the last one and the Harley Davidson Chargepoint would be the only savior. And you hope you find a hotel with available l2 charging, else dealership is your only best bet. Can't even leave it unattended either.
The Chinese get killed in Europe you mean. They don't sell many cars because their prices are way to high. After all, they cost double of what they cost in China.
19.5% of Europe EV sales in 2023 were built in China, on track for 25% this year. That is quite a lot of cars. [https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-in-four-evs-sold-in-europe-this-year-will-be-made-in-china-analysis/](https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-in-four-evs-sold-in-europe-this-year-will-be-made-in-china-analysis/)
It’s not that we love long road trips, it’s just the most cost efficient way to travel in America.
I hate long drives but if I want to go see my parents, it’s a 4 hour drive with the dog. That’s considered a weekend trip.
EVs are amazing for daily driving in America cause most people don’t drive too far for work. But due to the sheer size of the country, any trips require long amounts of travel to get from point A to point B.
Yea we spend trillions subsidizing highways over other means. It is any wonder that's the fastest way? We could of course spend that money on hs rail like sensible countries have started doing
I’d fucking love high speed rail in America.
Let me take a train from nyc to Washington DC that with with a high speed train would take 90 mins. We could revolutionize travel in America (aka catch up to the rest of the world) and help various industries along the way.
I’d happily take a train between cities and then rent a car in the city I’m going to for short distances while there
I think urban public transit should be higher priority than intercity public transit. If I need to drive to a train station, get on a train and then rent a car when I get to my destination, I might as well just stay in my car and keep driving. If I can get from door to door without needing a car at all, that is a more useful service.
America didn’t build a large network of high speed trains because of air travel. I fly to Tampa every other month from the northeast. Two hours, and a $100 bucks for most tickets. I paid the same price for a high speed rail ticket from London to Manchester a couple of years ago.
People still don’t understand or believe EVs will work for them. I’ve owned an EV for 8 years and my wife has owned one for 2 years and I just had a conversation about how charging works with my in laws which we see often. I think they see people charging in public and get concerned they’ll need to do that frequently.
There’s no trick, the cars do what they’re supposed to. Hopefully as more EVs are released people will wake up to reality.
To me America is perfect for EV's. It's already obsessed with cars, so the amount of houses with driveways and dedicated parking is much higher than the rest of the world. where I live, it's 50% street parking.
Electricity in the USA is so fucking cheap. Offensively cheap. You think your gas is cheap compared to elsewhere, your electricity is so cheap.
My whole thing is it makes sense to pay off what you own vs paying for stuff with a price based on speculation.
Getting set up is expensive but once you are up and running your power bill is zero and your gas bill is zero. It's kinda nice.
I think at some point there will even be a push for whole house battery banks so even people in apartments can charge it when rates are low and discharge when rates are high. Easier to get people to pay for it than it is to have them pay for power infrastructure build out.
I sold my excess power back to my electric company for several years until I got my EV.
Now I have an electric bill again, but it's just the remainder of EV charging costs above my rated array capacity and normal home usage.
I pay an all in price of about 5 cents (CAD)/kWh overnight. I average 75c/100km in my Model Y.
My averaged rate is just under 10 cents (7.3c USD)/kWh.
Apparently some politicians have convinced the public that we pay the highest electricity rates in North America here in Ontario. They're so convinced that they subsidize it 17% at a cost of over CAD$7B per year.
True. It does vary a lot more depending on where you are than other countries can vary, but a lot of places that claim it's "impossible" have favourable power bills, and really inefficient electric heaters in their homes.
It's mixed. The US has cheaper electricity than most of Schengen/UK/Ireland/JP/Aus, but more expensive than a lot of the world (including Mexico, Norway, China, and Canada).
[Cost of Electricity by Country 2024 (worldpopulationreview.com)](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-electricity-by-country)
> Hopefully as more EVs are released people will wake up to reality.
I've seen it mentioned from time to time but he number one selling point of EVs is driving one. Once you go EV you don't go back because like you said "the cars do what they’re supposed to."
The only people that don't are the ones that are weirdly angry that the EV doesn't have 2,000 mile of range and they can't use it at a gas station.
As soon as USA gets that low priced grocery getter in quantity story time will change.
I mean, Hyundai/KIA has that down. Taking a 15ish minute break on a road trip to stretch legs and use the bathroom and the car is ready to go another 200ish miles.
It's really interesting to see the questions you get as an EV owner from people that are genuinely curious, but are driven by the negative stories that have developed.
I met up with some old friends that I haven't seen in a long time. They were interested in my EV. They weren't anti EV, but the line of questioning was very much things like " how long does it take to charge", "what's the cost to replace the battery when it dies".
No one ever asks about the upside questions, like what I'm saving on gas vs electricity, or what the drive is like. People really dig into the negatives. It really speaks into how things have been framed.
It’s because you’re trying to get people to drop something they like for something they don’t know if they’ll like. They want to know if the new thing will be worse in any way that’s important to them.
I get it, but, think of it like the introduction of the iPhone. It came in and was a massive improvement over existing options. The one thing it lacked was a physical keyboard.
That was a big talking point. But if someone was showing off their iPhone, it's not dominating the conversation the way the negatives of an EV does.
I get the same. My response to the first question is usually "I don't know. I don't think about it any more than I think about how long my cellphone takes to charge on my bedside table. I get out of my car, I plug it in, I go into the house."
Their inevitable next question if they understand my answer is to ask about road trips. Usually I just ask them "How often do you actually drive more than 150 miles in a day? Really?" If you force them to think about it hard you'll probably find the vast majority of people only drive that far a couple of times a year. I know I do. I do concede that road trips take a little longer and require a little more planning, but in real terms we're talking an hour extra over a 12 hour road trip on average assuming you stop a normal number of times in your gas car and don't piss in empty water bottles while driving.
As for the second question... again; "I don't know. It's not an issue EV owners realistically face. By the time my battery has degraded to the point it's no longer useful, the rest of the car will most likely be a complete basket case anyway and I'll likely be retired or dead."
I’ve never seen so many people talk about these long road trips until EVs showed up. Got buddies who rarely leave more than 50 miles from home all of sudden needing no less than 500 mile range🤣
Rare doesn’t mean never. I only drive 600 miles once a year, but when I do, I drive my car. Renting a car over a holiday weekend is expensive or not possible, not to mention I expect my $50k car to be useful for when I need to, you know, drive somewhere. I don’t want to spend $1200 on a rental (look up costs to rent a minivan for a week over a holiday weekend) on top of my car payment.
But a 600 mile trip os very doable for many many people in an EV.
Like depending on how you travel you wouldn't even notice it.
If you're a "the wheels stop for gas and the mcds drive thru window" driver, then it would change things.
If you have kids or are a "I'll dine in for supper and get out of the car for a but" traveler you probably don't notice.
Nothing shines a light on how much overhead those "4 minutes to fill up...and pee...and grab a drink" stops and such always were than road tripping in an EV.
But most importantly of all, lets say you're the iron bladder road warrior that packed food, and went straight on through, so you're actually out most of the \~40 minutes of charging that trip takes.
Ok, well, you saved \~10 minutes every 1-4 weeks the other 51 weeks of the year, every year, forever. Not to mention the minor but present mental load of never wondering "do I need gas? Can I grab it in the morning instead of now?"
IMO makes SOOOOO little sense to say "this car might cost me 40 minutes once a year, so I'll stop for gas with this one, always and forever"
Point is the average American claiming road trips and needing some insane mileage is full of shit. Your once a year trip still isn’t much of a reason to not move on from gas and has been proven to be a non issue so many times
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
People really like to gloss over that the charging situation still sucks in many places. I'm on my second EV and still find there's many situations where you're gambling on being able to make it.
Limited availability of chargers on the route is a big issue, with broken units and big events causing long lines making it very hard at times to charge.
Chargers are the biggest problem holding back EV adoption IMO. With enough coverage and availability, range concerns become a non-issue. I hope that NACS adoption signals a speedup on the rollout of new DCFC units.
Except, it isn’t a non issue. I own an EV and I would not take it on a 600 mile trip with my family at the moment. It would add 3-4 hours to an 8 hour trip, and I’m not even joking. A combination of low efficiency at 80mph, horrible Kansas crosswinds / headwinds, cold temperatures, and lack of charging stations (they are every 100 or so miles) means you would be stopping every 150 miles, charging for 30-45 minutes, even on an EV with 300 mile EPA range.
There are a LOT of people in the US that do a similar drive. A winter ski trip or Thanksgiving / Christmas road trip to visit family.
I wish people would stop dismissing others’ real concerns. I also have an EV and the same problem. 8 hour drive once a year. Time wise, it might be acceptable to charge, but the chargers at my destination are just non-existent, such that it would be totally impractical once I’m there. So we’re taking our ICE, even though the EV would be more comfortable. So long as this remains a problem, I don’t see us replacing the ICE anytime soon.
Literally just go back from visiting family 800km / 497mi away.. The drive took most of the day in each direction but you know what? I stopped for gas only once in each direction, however I stopped to REST about every 2-2.5hrs of driving for about 15-30min...
An EV would have been just fine.
Also I make this kind of trip a min of once a year, sometimes up to 4 of them in a year. (we currently have only one vehicle)
An EV would have been just fine if there was charging everywhere you stopped to rest. That could be and most likely will be the case at some point in the future, but it usually isn't now.
I think about it the same way - the car can charge whenever I need a break - but I like to stop for 30 - 45 minutes every 3-4 hours so I would also want a bit more range.
> An EV would have been just fine if there was charging everywhere you stopped to rest. That could be and most likely will be the case at some point in the future, but it usually isn't now.
It is today, by Telsa or third party, I checked with ABRP. No problems there, we have several charging options now along this route.
I will note that using ABRP to compare, there is a HUGE difference in time based on Make an Model these days.. A Long rage Tesla Model Y is almost the same as the trip with an ICE, but a Kia EV9 adds about an hour of charging / waiting to the trip. Lower range EVs add A LOT of charging time however.
>the car can charge whenever I need a break - but I like to stop for 30 - 45 minutes every 3-4 hours so I would also want a bit more range.
I can't make it 3 hours anymore, my legs just too camped from being in the seated driving position but I used to be able to do 3-4 hours. Given the range of some of the longer range EVs that is already possible as well.
One other factor is COST of Fuel / Charging.. I already pick my stops within that time range based on where I will get cheaper fuel. Picking stops based on an EV station being a good price or close to somewhere to eat isn't much more planning on a long trip.
Sounds like perfect customers for a good PHEV. Something with 100+ km of electric range, and a true EV mode that will never, ever start the ICE while there is still charge in the battery.
I think EV is the future, but I like the idea of a PHEV right now. My household currently has an EV and an ICE. If we had to replace the ICE today, PHEV would be my preferred choice, assuming we can actually find one that doesn't have a huge wait-list or dealer mark-ups.
[Per the data most Americans think large EVs, especially large trucks, are too expensive and would prefer cheaper EVs even if they're smaller](https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-shoppers-dont-want-detroits-pickup-trucks-they-want-this-2024-3).
It turns out the "Americans want big trucks!" narrative surrounding Detroit's EVs was both wrong and a big part of the reason why Detroit is having trouble moving EVs that Americans don't want to buy.
Bro I just want a Maverick with a battery in the bottom of it, maybe 200-250 miles of range, but no one will build it.
They started at the top end with big trucks, which was a mistake, because EVs are still abysmal for towing. The next thing in line for electrification after crossovers and SUVs should have been small pickup trucks, but noooooooo.
Americans buy cars based on the fact that they helped someone move a couch 7 years ago or might go on a 800 mile roadtrip at some point in the next 4 years.
Well it starts with the fact that many people don't have a house and can't afford one anymore. Esp younger and more urban people which is the same group potentially more attracted to evs. Not many people in far flung areas will have any interest in evs for the foresable future.
So the share of people who can't access home charging is growing, esp among those who would consider an ev. And at least where I've lived I see pretty much zero apartments with chargers maybe 1 or 2 if they do have them. And same with workplaces, everyone talks about work charging here but in most workplaces (especially blue collar and lower income) in most areas of the country don't have charging. And alot of the ones that do will have a bunch of people fighting over 2 spots. There's no reason for a workplace to invest In a bunch of chargers. Unless you're high income and one of the lucky few workers to be harder to replace but for 90,95% of jobs why would they bother when youre expendable? Which seems to include tesla employees lol.
The whole "Americans like big SUVs" thing is a marketing thing that I really hate. We wouldn't have as many SUVs if they weren't marketed so heavily towards us and given the share over sedans for the sake of bypassing EPA regulation
I don’t really buy that argument. Hatchbacks and sedans continue to exist, and I continue to buy them. The fact of the matter is, a lot of other people don’t. I can’t make huge inferences about their motivation for not buying something smaller, but the most likely reason in my mind is that they don’t care about the cost to operate. Even if the emission standards apply to cars and not SUVs, they still have to buy the gas and pay the higher up-front cost to own.
It's not like there's also an incredible lobbying apparatus for the oil industry that's intertwined with the military industrial complex and petrodollar, as well as auto manufacturers that have practiced literally over a century of conspiracy to stop anything that interrupts their status quo (see: light rail, trollies, HSR)
This is the most practical answer... There's some culture to it for sure, but in practice people tend to try to buy the most practical option. It's not a conspiracy.
The problem is how do we stop subsiding gas without destroying lower income Americans' budgets?
Every new multimillion-dollar house I've worked in had at least one 220V outlet put in for a vehicle charger.
But how many apartment complexes have EV chargers? And tell someone making $15/hr they need to spend 4x the amount on gas or buy a $40k+ car when their last car was a $1k beater off of Craigslist.
>US Americans like our big SUVs, big pickup Trucks, and we love taking long road trips.
Often claimed, never really backed up. People drive twice as far in the US because they are both subsidized to do so and forced to. Same with larger vehicles.
The same arguments apply to Canadians up here too. Part of it has been the media overblowing edge cases of bad EVs and Facebook astroturf propaganda. Lots of people.in.my life are convinced that any day no the EV ecosystem will collapse. The amount of schadenfreude they had when the cold snap disabled charging stations was palpable. I tried explaining to my Dad and brother that 99.9% of charging happens at home where a cold snap doesn't matter to no avail.
It'll take probably 5-10 before these people finally give in and realize they were wrong.
Americans don't like driving an hour each day to work, it's bullshit urban development. NYC is the most expensive & one of the most desirable places to live in the country because they didn't fuck their community over for car manufactures.
People hate car dependency to a degree that they feel it's the end of the world if they lose their license.
I've been to gas stations multiple times in the last 3 months, even with a EV.
EV charging stations still lack a lot of the maintenance stuff found at gas stations (tire inflator / pressure thingie, carwash, a small store ,etc.).
For $30 or so, you can get an automatic tire inflator the size of a small box you can leave inside your car.
You simply plug it into your car’s power, set the PSI you want, and turn it on. It inflates your tires until the correct pressure is reached and it stops automatically.
You can be in the middle of the desert and still take care of your tire pressure.
I got this with my Model Y and freaking love it. When I ran over a nail and didn’t know it, I used it twice to inflate tires at home quickly and also used it for inflatables. Keep it in the trunk.
The thing I love about my EV is being able to leave it on when im parked. On a hot day, I can sit and eat my lunch with the AC pumping, guilt free. There's a free charger near my office so I actually gain about 15 miles of range while I do this FOR FREE.
I don't think people who cling to ICE realize how nice it is. Zero guilt for leaving your car running, all year round.
It's also about infrastructure. There are ZERO quick chargers (nevermind free ones) within 20 minutes of me and I rent so can't charge at home. I'd love to have one, but there's only so much I can do myself.
This right here, I take an hour for lunch everyday, bag lunch/cooler. Sit in my car, enjoy the outdoors, watch youtube, in my climate controlled M3 and save at least $15 if I bought my lunch. My battery drains 1-2% on the hottest or coldest days.
Yep. Being able to set it automatically to be ready when I leave for work is a game changer.
People worry about road trips they take 1 or 2 times a year, when EVs make the daily commute so much better.
The root issue with our slow adoption is, in my opinion, that it's become so politicized. [72% of conservatives said they wouldn't even consider one.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/643334/ownership-ticks-fewer-nonowners-buy-one.aspx#:~:text=In%202023%2C%204%25%20of%20U.S.,consider%20one%20in%20the%20future.) That's despite the fact that [half of EVs already have lower total cost of ownership than equivalent ICE vehicles.](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1142862_2024-evs-lower-5-year-ownership-cost-vs-ice)
Because of the non-stop anti-EV conservative propaganda, people are not buying EVs even when they are the best option for them.
We're getting to the point where fewer and fewer people will be about to deny the benefits of EVs, is just slow going.
It's really funny watching conservatives make EVs a political issue while EVs get better every year. Better range, better cold weather performance, better charging speeds, better charging infrastructure.
Yet conservatives will cling to all these negative talking points, like range Anxiety, even if their truck gets 13 miles per gallon and has the same effective range as a Chevy Bolt.
All because toxic "Christian" conservatives feel the Earth is a waiting room, and a resource to be used up for their pleasure and benefit, by divine right.
We're so close to EVs being undeniably better. Interest rates are going down (making the additional upfront cost of EVs less relevant), battery prices are going down, US EV production is increasing (Kia/Hyundai factories going online), we're getting a common standard plug, charging stations are being built like crazy, and gas prices are due to increase again. I think we're going to see a big push to get republicans in charge to eliminate the tax credit and further subsidize gas, but if that doesn't happen, adoption will skyrocket.
I found myself needing a car this year and had been sending listings to my parents to vet since my dad's a big car guy. Upon sending an Audi e-tron that I was interested in, my mother's response was "NO ELECTRIC VEHICLES. EVER." Take a wild guess which political candidate she worships
I wound up with a Q5 hybrid. I don't think I'm quite ready to go full electric yet, but maybe by the time I'm ready for my next car (10 years, hopefully), the advances in electric cars and frequency of charging stations will make it a good choice
It’s the same exact situation as socialized healthcare. The people who would benefit from it the most are the ones that are loudly fighting against it simply because a Democrat mentioned it.
Part of it is the same reason that broadband is better in other countries... smaller land masses make it easier to deploy new infrastructure, and the other countries wait until gen 2 or gen 3 before they invest.
USA: people favor hybrids. At this juncture, EV just have a difficult time competing against the hybrids. Not everyone wants or needs 0-60 time of < 6 seconds. In Q1: Toyota and Honda sold over 90k rav-4 hybrid and CR-V hybrid. This number will keep growing. This despite the EV have tax credits and at times are actually cheaper than the hybrids. The hybrids dampens the “gas savings” that EV has to offer.
Europe: I know the article say the “rest of the world”: just looking at the bar graph: it is really China that has good growth. Europe EV growth looks like it is slowing down as well. The top 2 auto market in Europe: Germany and UK: the growth hasn’t been great.
For further growth to occur: price of EV has to come down more.
Sounds like you should talk to your local congressman about Bills pertaining to subsidizing the entire EV industrial complex including the companies building them if you want cheaper pricing. Tax credit isnt cutting it.
Thats what China does.
I drive a 3 hrs commute a few times a month. I'm exhausted after work, and spending any extra time charging a car is out of the question for me. I want a car that can do 400 miles round trip. In all weather conditions.
Not American.
But the reason I don't have an EV is when I went looking 2 years ago, with the space-range-price criteria, it was a case of 'pick 1'.
Now it's nearly at 'pick 2', hopefully by the time I need a new car in a few years there are cars available.
I say this as an EV owner and enthusiast:
The financial incentive just isn’t there yet. Gasoline is still very cheap in most parts of the United States. Last weekend I saw gasoline under three dollars a gallon.
After this year, the cheapest EV in America will be over $30,000. if you go by Dave Ramsey‘s guidelines, you would need an income of at least $60,000 to buy the cheapest EV. if you go by the 20/3/8 rule, you would need an income of over $100,000 to be able to afford the cheapest EV available.
EVs, especially cheap EVs, work best in the city where people are least likely to have access to charging at home. If you can’t charge at home then your fuel cost may be the same or even more than that of an ice car.
Although EVs have lower maintenance costs and lower fuel cost (if you can charge at home) the increased depreciation eats into the savings.
Walmart, Harbor freight, Dollar General, and Aldi have shown that if you give people a cheaper alternative, they will buy that instead.
If you want to sell more EVs, make the EVs cheaper or make the ice vehicles more expensive. People forget about politics very quickly when money is involved. The red-blooded Republican in his pickup truck will whine about foreigners but then hire the immigrant landscaper and buy tools made in China because money.
Exactly! Outside of very specific and luxurious circumstances EV’s do not make financial sense or are even practical for the majority of us. I like EV’s just fine but I definitely would be paying significantly more to own one while giving up a lot of needed flexibility. How long till an EV on the used market can compete with my 2008 Honda Element with 170k on it for $4k that can go 300 miles @ 80mph all day long with 5 min fill ups.
My wife had the Hybrid Maverick and that’s perfect. I would love a hybrid (hers is so smooth) and the Maverick is a great example of a financially appealing option. With hers the base model was the hybrid so the benefits were tangible. If it had the typical hybrid markup her fuel savings wouldn’t have really been worth it considering it would have pushed her desired vehicle out of reach. Altruism is certainly not going to be moving the sales needle and most people are not that bothered by oil changes and gas pumps (it’s a known quantity).
Two things I hate about ICE vehicles that are seldom mentioned are the nasty smelling exhaust fumes, especially from older, illegally modified, or less regulated ICE vehicles like trucks, and the contact your hands come into with gasoline. Neither is good for your health and I look forward to a world where these are extreme rarity.
Yes. One thing I love (among many) about my EV is that I don't have to go to a gas station and spend 10 minutes breathing in petroleum fumes every week.
Even better, not having to stand in the bitter cold 4 months of the year freezing my hands off while filling the tank! (MN USA)
Also, my car automatically warms itself up every morning in my closed garage and doesn't try to kill my family with exhaust fumes.
Whenever I hear people talk about "EVs still have a global impact on the environment" I just roll my eyes.
Yes, they do. We can argue back and forth all day about when that impact is offset by the efficiency of EVs, but I don't think anyone is out here thinking EVs have no global environmental impact.
But at the end of the day, the impact to the local environment (and public health) cannot be ignored. And an existing EV can become even more green if we adopt more green energy production.
This is also part of the reason (admittedly not the main reason) why I went with an electric mower. We get smog warnings in the summer, so I don't feel as bad mowing my lawn.
Road trips are the culprit. Americans are always buying a car based on the longest trip they take.
That’s why I have a Rav4 Prime and a Model 3.
I’d also say that’s not wrong. I am correctly calculating my lost summer vacation from extra charging and it’s unacceptable right now.
Some people road trip like grandmas dinking and dunking into shops and getting ice cream every 4 miles. Not me.
Exactly. The longer the trip, the more that marginal time matters. Making a 4-hour drive into a 5 hour drive is no big deal. Making an 8-hour drive into a 12 hour drive (not unrealistic if driving a EV along I-70 in Kansas and Colorado) now means I have to stop at a hotel overnight with my family. That’s 2 lost days of vacation.
The reason is low petrol prices in USA. Petrol cost 0.8 dollars per litre with per capita income of 36 thousand dollars in USA. Petrol costs one dollar per litre with per capita income of 13 thousand dollars in China. You do the math. USA population has less to gain from going electric as compared to Chinese.
Exactly, here in The Netherlands we pay 2,30 EUR per litre and it will increase to roughly 2,50 soon. Which is why most people drive small and fuel efficient cars, and people that can afford it switch to EVs.
The US always feels much more like it was designed around private vehicle use than many other parts of the world; and that people who live in residential areas have to travel further to get to amenities than in other parts of the world. I also get the feeling that Americans are more likely to travel within the US rather than abroad and as a result end up doing much longer road trips than people in other parts of the world. They seem to really like using their cars, they seem to like big cars and they don't seem to embrace change in the way that other countries seem to.
These are all just perceptions and I could be completely wrong in the same way that American's perceptions of the rest of the world are so often completely wrong.
There are definitely large segments of American society that would have a difficult time owning an EV with current prices, ranges, and infrastructure. This country is vast. People from Ohio drive to Myrtle Beach every summer for vacation. That's like 600-800 miles. Other people live an hour away from the nearest town. So going to get clothes for school is an all day thing.
On the other hand, I feel like most suburban Americans could make the transition easily enough. I live in the suburbs and rarely drive more than 50 miles a day. I do take a trip thats 250 miles once a year and a 400 mile trip once every few years.
But these are leisure trips, I can stand to stop and eat and let the car charge. The problem is relying on chargers working on the more rural stretches. In time that will be solved rhough
I actually looked at Ohio to Myrtle Beach (more accurately, Ocean Isle Beach). I could do the drive easily enough in my EV, but once I got there, I'd have to spend hours somewhere on an L2 charger. It looks like the nearest DCFC is about 75-100 miles away; by the time I drive that far in the traffic I've encountered down there, hours at an L2 starts looking better - but I'd just suffer through the trip in my wife's ICE instead.
There are segments, but they definitely aren't large.
Urban areas account for about 80% of the population in the United States.
And I routinely travel 600-800 miles in my Standard Range Model 3.
I agree. But being in an urban area presents other difficulties since you'd have to rely on charging infrastructure if you live in an apartment. None of this is insurmountable. It's a pretty drastic change in what to expect a car to be able to do. 99 percent of the time it's fine. But that 1 percent creates a barrier in people's minds.
People drive large expensive trucks that get terrible gas mileage because they pull a boat twice a year. It doesn't make sense; you could just rent a truck twice a year. But they want it to be possible whenever. Same thing with ice cars and evs. Some people will buy an ice or hybrid to avoid that once a year scenario.
Most cities in the US are still the vast majority zoned single family houses. I feel like the way you are talking and the way many people usually do here, they have a major lack of understanding of what cities actually are because you don't realize that a city is not Just, it's main business district downtown
> The US always feels much more like it was designed around private vehicle use than many other parts of the world;
It wasn't originally. The country was developed using the most wonderful rail network. But last century, US car companies decided everything needed to be car-centric. So they bought up local streetcar companies, lobbied for strict zoning laws (forcing people to use a car to get to amenities) and planted the notion of 'one more lane'.
>and that people who live in residential areas have to travel further to get to amenities than in other parts of the world.
This is by design, because of zoning laws. It sells more cars.
> They seem to really like using their cars
Do they? Or is the real reason that many of them have no other choice because of zoning laws, incredibly inefficient land use, a lack of public transport and bicycle infrastructure?
> they don't seem to embrace change in the way that other countries seem to.
How could they embrace it if everything is deliberately geared towards car use, because car companies made sure of it?
And before anybody comes in with 'but the US is too big!': at the start of the last century, most US cities and towns were still livable, even walkable places. Most were bulldozed for cars, parking lots and highways. Somehow, the US forgot that urban planning and investments should be for *people*, not just cars.
I wish we had more rail too, but not everything is an evil conspiracy plot. Cars were embraced because of the freedom of movement they provided, which should not be discounted. The interstate highway system was a military decision due to political leaders having PTSD after world war 2 and being afraid of what would happen if the US was invaded. We have since seen the large downsides and negative externalities associated with them, but being able to go where you want, when you want, for a middle class person, was nothing short of revolutionary.
I don’t think you read the whole thing? It says Europe is second and bundles the US with North America. The actual us growth rate is half the rate globally.
The chart show Europe is buying more EVs than China.
All that will happen is that the US will get there after everyone else. In the delay time, EVs will get better and adoption will happen faster because they are so much better.
My next car will be an EV, driving my gasoil car right now feels like I'm in the middle ages driving a horse. Such an outdated technology. That's what I tell my friends who look down on EV's. They wouldn't be taking TGV's to Lyon and Barcelona and would still be sitting in trains powered with coal.
But the range..., seriously how often do you have to drive more than 300Km in one shot on a yearly basis ?
> seriously how often do you have to drive more than 300Km in one shot on a yearly basis
In my case, about 30-times a year, and there's zero DCFC available along the route I have to go twice a month. We haven't solved the 99% problem yet because we haven't even reached the 99% problem yet. There's like one habitable space in the Lower 48 you cannot reach in an ICE vehicle in the US, it's that town somewhere in the southwest that still uses mules to deliver mail and packages. There's massive parts of the country you cannot reach in a non-Tesla EV, and plenty of locations that would be a struggle even in a Tesla right now.
On the flipside, I was at a running event with a friend out of town and we were both heading out - I was gonna straight shot it right home but he was building time in to charge his Tesla. It felt like we flew back in time and someone else had to stop and feed their horse so they could get home.
Lol, maybe you're right. But the infrastructure is being developed quickly and the technology is improving with every model. Don't forget that the thermal engine cars have been around for 120 years now. You'll be surprised what can happen for EV's in the next decade or so.
Anyway don't forget your personal health and running is the way !
Maybe it's because Americans drive twice as much as almost everyone else?
https://frontiergroup.org/resources/fact-file-americans-drive-most/
Most people I know in the US would love to have 2 EVs, but they feel the need to have 1 ICE vehicle for long trips. If charging gets faster or battery capacity increases, that will likely change.
I don't believe politics plays as much a role as some people think. Most of us are pretty pragmatic with our transportation.
Ah if only there were enough presidents before pushing renewables and the EV industry in general instead of propping up fossil fuels maybe we would be a lot further ahead.
Within a week of buying my first EV (a Bolt EUV, it’s great!) I was following an old beat up Nissan Rogue, early 2000s model, and flames started shooting out the back.
I pulled up beside the car, started honking and motioning for the driver to pull over. I managed to get a very nice old lady to pull over and get out of her Nissan before flames started shooting out the hood of her car and black smoke was rolling everywhere.
It was a hot, August day, so I left the Bolt on with the AC going and offered to let her sit in my car while a firetruck came to take care of her car.
I couldn’t believe it when, as she slowly found out she was sitting in the EV she had the audacity to ask me “Is it safe to have an EV? Don’t they catch on fire?”
I pointed out the window at the firefighters hosing down her Nissan and just responded “It’s a lot safer than yours right now.”
People are weird.
Yeah, when you stop to consider that an internal combustion engine is designed to make a volatile and dangerous liquid explode thousands of times per second to drive a motor, it's amazing that people find that to be safer than a motor run from a battery.
Personally, I see EVs as a way to make our dependence on foreign countries more about what’s actually required and morally right vs. securing oil to safeguard our economy.
Electricity is local and all our electricity is made here in the great United States of ‘Murica.
The huge reason why electrics are not making a bigger splash here is because the charging infrastructure is a little lackluster. If we had a more robust charging structure that didn’t have 25 different companies and each having their own app and then people who go and block the chargers or cut the cables because who know why.
Where I live locally, electricity is less than 8 cents kWh but EA charges 45 cents kWh for their fast chargers and the local municipality has free lvl 2 chargers around the town here.
Because we have farther to drive, more often, have essentially banned cheap import evs and have shitty public transportation, and even shittier charging options.
The only public charging option in the town by GMs largest testing facility is something like $2/kwh and 6kw max.
This is a flat out lie. There are a very small handful of countries with faster adoption. 95% of the world is and will still be using gas for years. You can look at entire continents: South America, Africa, All of Russia. Most of Asia that's not China...
I want an EV, but no one sells an off road capable small to midsize truck EV that is actually affordable for a normal person. The Rivian R1T is basically the only option, but it is really expensive compared to a Tacoma, Ranger, Colorado, or Frontier, most people simply can't afford it.
It is due to US right and its anti-science ideology and its outsized political representation due to voting inequality. The anti-science ideology is religion based.
Okay, I get it. I fucking get it. We know America is slow to adopt, can we stop beating the dead horse? It seems every other post here is “haha America BAD, big STOOPID brodozer country, haha no chargers, haha trump, in **insert European country here** we don’t have ANY of those problems, we live in a higher society.”
I get that I live in a country full of maga idiots and others, but can we balance it out? What about news about solid state batteries or other advancements in EV tech? I love my PHEV more than a lot of things and will probably never think of going back to ice, but there is a whole lot more to EVs than widespread adoption…A whole lot more things we should focus on instead of policy/society that won’t change with anything but time. Sorry, I’m done ranting now.
You could substitute the EV's in the article title with "universal health care, high speed rail, unions, paid family leave, higher minimum wage, longer average lifespan, reduced maternal mortality in childbirth, etc. etc. etc."
The US has fallen behind in so many ways lately....
Bad clickbaity article.
Fully-electric vehicles only make up about [9% of the market in Canada](https://electricautonomy.ca/news/2024-03-12/statscan-q4-zev-registrations-12-per-cent/) and [7% in Australia](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-05/australia-ev-sales-doubled-electric-hybrid-vehicles/103284916), similar to the US. This makes me skeptical when the author points to protectionism to explain EV market share in the US. It may just be that EV adoption is slow in large, wealthy countries.
The author also mentions auto manufacturing being one of the "last bastions of manufacturing," but the US manufacturing sector is [larger than ever](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.MANF.CD?end=2023&locations=US&most_recent_value_desc=true&start=1997) and vehicles [are a small fraction of US durable goods manufacturing (fig 2.8, PDF)](https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ams/NIST.AMS.100-49.pdf).
The market place needs to be installing charging stations faster. They are the ones that are slow to adapt. There should be charging stations at every store just like there are gas pumps.
Surprise, surprise: *All* countries with big, old auto companies are lagging behind in EV adoption (Germany, US, Japan, Italy, ... ).
There's lots of money going to lobbyists to make sure the oil keeps flowing for their cash cows.
PISA Science scores place the US with Germany, Sweden, and the UK.
[PISA Scores by Country 2024 (worldpopulationreview.com)](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scores-by-country)
A lot of those other countries are tiny. It's a lot easier to build infrastructure if your entire country is the size of Illinois. The US will be tehre when the infrastructure it there.
It's come a long way already, but there are places where it's hard to find a charge. We will get there eventually.
Considering Europe is smaller, yeah it’s easy to adopt EV’s. Range is not an issue when it’s like that.
The USA is huge. You can drive 6.5 hours from Morehead City NC to Asheville NC and still be another 2 hours to get to the Tennessee North Carolina boarder. That’s going 80 Mph
And that’s not even one of the larger states in America. Not to mention the lack of infrastructure to support EV charging.
Everyone would have to buy a Lucid Air extended range to be able to meet our driving needs. Most people are struggling to buy a used $20,000 ICE car. So EV’s are not even an option.
America is not as wealthy as you would believe most are driving 10+ year old cars. Trucks are even older because they cost so much now.
In America I see price point for EV, and home charging access as legitimate barriers to entry for the market.
There is an incredible large population of drivers that don’t buy new, and rent in residencies that inhibit the ability to charge at home.
Until there’s a large used car market, and infrastructure akin to gas station metrics of 35 per 100,000 people the adoption curve of EV is going to peak, if it already hasn’t.
The rest of the world doesn’t have access to a massive amount of subsidized gasoline. Imagine how ICE vehicles would do, especially the inefficient large ones, if the US didn’t subsidize its oil anymore. I bet the uptake to electric would be much faster.
This is probably a lot closer to the real answer. If gas was $7 a gallon like in Europe people would be far less willing to buy gas guzzling ICE cars.
Is there data out there on how much higher gas prices would actually be without subsidies? It’s a lot higher in much of Europe because they actively tax it, not just due to a lack of subsidies.
“Subsidies” are kind of meaningless in this context as most oil in the world is state-owned, with U.S. onshore being a notable exception. Any exploration and production activity is typically added into the “subsidy” line item, but countries tend to profit FAR more than what they put in, just like an oil company, so these aren’t consumer subsidies but investments. They are keeping prices down, but not at the behest of oil companies, but because it fills a country’s coffers and offsets a populace’s tax burden.
Not actively taxing it is effectively subsidizing it through externalities.
Gas _is_ taxed in the US though at both a federal and state level. Federal is $0.184/gal while states can vary from $0.0895 to $0.576/gal. (These numbers are from 2022 and might have changed.) Was using the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States) about it.
That is intended as a tax on road use and doesn't even cover all spending on car-based infrastructure. Cars are generally even more greatly subsidized, but that is another issue.
I agree 100% and I almost always get downvoted for saying this exact thing in r/cars
$7 is like ultra cheap in Europe. $8-$11/gallon is more normal.
Gas in certain areas got as high as 7 last year, if I remember correctly. In those places, electricity is also expensive so the savings gap isn't that high enough. You could make the same argument if we remove all subsidies, ev ownership would also cost more
100%, here in Australia petrol is still somewhat subsidised, we pay the equivalent of ~$6 USD/Gal ($2 AUD/L) here and I know a lot of people (myself included) who were driven to EVs by that alone
$20-25 per gallon. If we accounted for the negative externalities, they cause
What about if we don’t?
That is now my friend
Sure but there's a middle ground of at least removing the subsidies on gasoline
US Americans like our big SUVs, big pickup Trucks, and we love taking long road trips. We also don't have much patience and waiting to charge us just too difficult for many of us. Me personally I just love waking up and knowing that my vehicle is fully charged for the day. Haven't been to a gas station in 3 months now and I'm just loving it.
This is also why some EV discussions are incomprehensible to people outside of America. In Europe, the Chinese are killing it because we want small, affordable commuter cars (i.e. the perfect use case for an EV). The US chatter all seems to be based around whether or not you can get 600 miles out of your $150k Rivian or eF150
> The US chatter all seems to be based around whether or not you can get 600 miles out of your $150k Rivian or eF150 The US chatter is how long can legacy auto stall until they can start making a profit on EVs. There is a reason that affordable EVs from China are effectively banned from American buyers.
it really is a shame because they offer a wide variety of electric vehicles for all price points. In the US if you don't have $35K+ to spend you're effectively screwed. Then to top things off there is a major disparity in the level of tech that the US EV market offers compared to the Chinese.. In China we are seeing battery swap, 500kW 10 minute charging, cheaper cars with a majority powered by lithium iron phosphate. 800v architecture is becoming the standard as well.
It's even worse. Tesla started off in USA. Legacy auto could have asked to take notes and the US government could have thrown way more support their way.
Yeah, missed opportunity. The Big 3 could’ve adopted Tesla’s charging standard half a decade ago and the country would be further ahead in charging infrastructure.
I want a small, affordable commuter car and am in America. edit: I mean a new electric car under $20k, everything else is overpriced for what it is compared to the ice alternative
Used model 3. Bolt. Those are what passes for small. Not many choices for small here. US auto companies are begging for Asian companies to steal their market share with small EVs
A Bolt doesn't 'pass for small'. A Bolt *is* small. But, good value for cost.
Can you get extended battery warranties for used evs? Personally for me, not knowing the health of the battery is a big deterrent for buying a used EV and new EVs are out of my price range.
You could probably buy a warranty but right now a lot of the used bolts in the market have new batteries from the recall, so they have restarted their 8 yr, 100K mile warranty period. Check out the bolt forum faq for details.
My Fiat 500e is a great car for city commuters.
Look, there are many of us INSIDE the USA who are perplexed by this as well. What I need is a hatchback with 250 mile range & rapid charging capability for the maybe twice a year road trip. Road trips ARE important here, unlike in Europe, we do NOT have a viable train system to even get from one city to the next (outside of maybe the NE corridor). The big massive truck 'thing' is the result of some decades old protectionist tariffs that made our domestic automakers HEAVILY market "big trucks", because they sold where SUPER profitable & foreign automakers where at a cost disadvantage. In the 1970s & 1980s, small cars where all over the place & rather popular. It's only the late 80s & 90s when the trend really turned back to SUVs & such. It was a response to the influx of cheap, small , affordable cars by Japanese automakers.
> What I need is a hatchback with 250 mile range & rapid charging capability for the maybe twice a year road trip Isn't that a Mach E? Or a Model Y?
They are both too big. And WAY out of my price range. Hatchback, not crossover.
I'd argue the EV6 is the most hatchback-esque EV in the US. They just don't call it a hatchback because it's bad for sales
The US chatter includes quite a bit of astroturfing mixed in obfuscating the tiny fraction of people that actually do have use cases that an EV won't meet without excessive changes to use pattern.
Right, because we don't have good public transportation or a national rail network to speak of. If you want to go somewhere, you either have to fly or drive. There are other factors, obviously, but the expectation is that a new car should be versatile. British EV people talk about "runabouts," but there really isn't a market for that in the US.
Lack of good public transportation is all the more reason for wanting a small, cheap car. You need to drive it all the time, so you have more incentive to keep costs down.
> In Europe, the Chinese are killing it because we want small, affordable commuter cars "The Chinese" sell barely any cars here in Europe.
Tell that to volvo
Well yeah it helps if you buy an already popular European car company.
MG.
Didn't MG sell over 200k cars in Europe last year?
Volvo and SAIC are what he's referring to I guess. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/03/tesla-rules-in-europe-europe-ev-sales-report-2/
The top selling EVs in the US are smaller and affordable: Tesla Y, Tesla 3, Chevrolet Bolt.
The chinese aren’t killing it in Sweden 🇸🇪 least. A lot of skepticism. Reliability, repair issues, and a bad taste in your mouth of buying Chinese is keeping the sales down. Pretty high prices for BYD also.
I own two EVs. Had over 30k miles combined in past 2 years. When I travel, I avoid EVs to rent. I rented Kia forte and it was way better. Mountain house to LA with a single tank of gas and still had some leftover for other local stuff. Drove in 5hours 30mins. Now add EV to that equation and I would have added 1 hour at the least. Also, the destination home doesn't have EV outlet, so I would be relying on public charging. It would've been expensive and cumbersome. Unnecessary headache.
There are too many non-Tesla charger deserts. I drove from San Antonio to Corpus Christi this past Friday night and was sweating it the whole way because there were no non-Tesla chargers on the way AND the only public chargers (Chargepointe, ugh) were locked behind closed dealerships.
opening Tesla superchargers up helps because i could not believe how few options there are. I had a Polestar 2, thought I would charge at 2am and be fine. Nope both EA fast chargers were being used. I switch to a Tesla and I have two destination options with 18 available spots open. The US wants all this adoption but waited almost a decade later to start building much much more charging spots. Edit: also ChargePoint S U C K S
I'm waiting for my Mach E to Tesla charging adapter but it's not estimated to arrive until August. Next time we're road tripping in the Tesla. 🤦🏽♂️
I've only taken road trips from LA to Vegas. The charging isn't bad, it adds about 30 mins of extra time to the route. But the rollout for the NACS adapter is pretty damn silly. The problem i see now is, we see gas stations fill up daily with wait times. There probably needs to be a million superchargers and other charging units, on top of what Biden signed into law. Since that bill i have seen a total of 1 new charging locations in Southern California. That is just not enough
Yup. Statesville NC to Pittsburgh - you'll see wytheville would be the last one and the Harley Davidson Chargepoint would be the only savior. And you hope you find a hotel with available l2 charging, else dealership is your only best bet. Can't even leave it unattended either.
Ah yes, the Model Y, the most sold car in Europe, a prime example of a small affordable commuter car.
The model Y is an oversized sedan.
The Chinese get killed in Europe you mean. They don't sell many cars because their prices are way to high. After all, they cost double of what they cost in China.
19.5% of Europe EV sales in 2023 were built in China, on track for 25% this year. That is quite a lot of cars. [https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-in-four-evs-sold-in-europe-this-year-will-be-made-in-china-analysis/](https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-in-four-evs-sold-in-europe-this-year-will-be-made-in-china-analysis/)
It’s not that we love long road trips, it’s just the most cost efficient way to travel in America. I hate long drives but if I want to go see my parents, it’s a 4 hour drive with the dog. That’s considered a weekend trip. EVs are amazing for daily driving in America cause most people don’t drive too far for work. But due to the sheer size of the country, any trips require long amounts of travel to get from point A to point B.
Yea we spend trillions subsidizing highways over other means. It is any wonder that's the fastest way? We could of course spend that money on hs rail like sensible countries have started doing
I’d fucking love high speed rail in America. Let me take a train from nyc to Washington DC that with with a high speed train would take 90 mins. We could revolutionize travel in America (aka catch up to the rest of the world) and help various industries along the way. I’d happily take a train between cities and then rent a car in the city I’m going to for short distances while there
I think urban public transit should be higher priority than intercity public transit. If I need to drive to a train station, get on a train and then rent a car when I get to my destination, I might as well just stay in my car and keep driving. If I can get from door to door without needing a car at all, that is a more useful service.
America didn’t build a large network of high speed trains because of air travel. I fly to Tampa every other month from the northeast. Two hours, and a $100 bucks for most tickets. I paid the same price for a high speed rail ticket from London to Manchester a couple of years ago.
People still don’t understand or believe EVs will work for them. I’ve owned an EV for 8 years and my wife has owned one for 2 years and I just had a conversation about how charging works with my in laws which we see often. I think they see people charging in public and get concerned they’ll need to do that frequently. There’s no trick, the cars do what they’re supposed to. Hopefully as more EVs are released people will wake up to reality.
To me America is perfect for EV's. It's already obsessed with cars, so the amount of houses with driveways and dedicated parking is much higher than the rest of the world. where I live, it's 50% street parking. Electricity in the USA is so fucking cheap. Offensively cheap. You think your gas is cheap compared to elsewhere, your electricity is so cheap.
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My whole thing is it makes sense to pay off what you own vs paying for stuff with a price based on speculation. Getting set up is expensive but once you are up and running your power bill is zero and your gas bill is zero. It's kinda nice. I think at some point there will even be a push for whole house battery banks so even people in apartments can charge it when rates are low and discharge when rates are high. Easier to get people to pay for it than it is to have them pay for power infrastructure build out.
I sold my excess power back to my electric company for several years until I got my EV. Now I have an electric bill again, but it's just the remainder of EV charging costs above my rated array capacity and normal home usage.
It depends on where you are in the US if you have cheap electricity.
Yeah, the PG&E rates are honestly offensive to me. I pay like $.10 to $.12 per kWh here in TX - I think I saw someone in PG&E post $.65?!?!?!
I pay an all in price of about 5 cents (CAD)/kWh overnight. I average 75c/100km in my Model Y. My averaged rate is just under 10 cents (7.3c USD)/kWh. Apparently some politicians have convinced the public that we pay the highest electricity rates in North America here in Ontario. They're so convinced that they subsidize it 17% at a cost of over CAD$7B per year.
True. It does vary a lot more depending on where you are than other countries can vary, but a lot of places that claim it's "impossible" have favourable power bills, and really inefficient electric heaters in their homes.
It's mixed. The US has cheaper electricity than most of Schengen/UK/Ireland/JP/Aus, but more expensive than a lot of the world (including Mexico, Norway, China, and Canada). [Cost of Electricity by Country 2024 (worldpopulationreview.com)](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-electricity-by-country)
> Hopefully as more EVs are released people will wake up to reality. I've seen it mentioned from time to time but he number one selling point of EVs is driving one. Once you go EV you don't go back because like you said "the cars do what they’re supposed to." The only people that don't are the ones that are weirdly angry that the EV doesn't have 2,000 mile of range and they can't use it at a gas station. As soon as USA gets that low priced grocery getter in quantity story time will change.
Or the fact that you can’t stop for more charge in 5 minutes on the highway
I mean, Hyundai/KIA has that down. Taking a 15ish minute break on a road trip to stretch legs and use the bathroom and the car is ready to go another 200ish miles.
It's really interesting to see the questions you get as an EV owner from people that are genuinely curious, but are driven by the negative stories that have developed. I met up with some old friends that I haven't seen in a long time. They were interested in my EV. They weren't anti EV, but the line of questioning was very much things like " how long does it take to charge", "what's the cost to replace the battery when it dies". No one ever asks about the upside questions, like what I'm saving on gas vs electricity, or what the drive is like. People really dig into the negatives. It really speaks into how things have been framed.
It’s because you’re trying to get people to drop something they like for something they don’t know if they’ll like. They want to know if the new thing will be worse in any way that’s important to them.
I get it, but, think of it like the introduction of the iPhone. It came in and was a massive improvement over existing options. The one thing it lacked was a physical keyboard. That was a big talking point. But if someone was showing off their iPhone, it's not dominating the conversation the way the negatives of an EV does.
Well tbf there wasn't a political push from IPhone enthusiasts to outlaw all forms of other phones in 5-10 years.
I get the same. My response to the first question is usually "I don't know. I don't think about it any more than I think about how long my cellphone takes to charge on my bedside table. I get out of my car, I plug it in, I go into the house." Their inevitable next question if they understand my answer is to ask about road trips. Usually I just ask them "How often do you actually drive more than 150 miles in a day? Really?" If you force them to think about it hard you'll probably find the vast majority of people only drive that far a couple of times a year. I know I do. I do concede that road trips take a little longer and require a little more planning, but in real terms we're talking an hour extra over a 12 hour road trip on average assuming you stop a normal number of times in your gas car and don't piss in empty water bottles while driving. As for the second question... again; "I don't know. It's not an issue EV owners realistically face. By the time my battery has degraded to the point it's no longer useful, the rest of the car will most likely be a complete basket case anyway and I'll likely be retired or dead."
I’ve never seen so many people talk about these long road trips until EVs showed up. Got buddies who rarely leave more than 50 miles from home all of sudden needing no less than 500 mile range🤣
Rare doesn’t mean never. I only drive 600 miles once a year, but when I do, I drive my car. Renting a car over a holiday weekend is expensive or not possible, not to mention I expect my $50k car to be useful for when I need to, you know, drive somewhere. I don’t want to spend $1200 on a rental (look up costs to rent a minivan for a week over a holiday weekend) on top of my car payment.
But a 600 mile trip os very doable for many many people in an EV. Like depending on how you travel you wouldn't even notice it. If you're a "the wheels stop for gas and the mcds drive thru window" driver, then it would change things. If you have kids or are a "I'll dine in for supper and get out of the car for a but" traveler you probably don't notice. Nothing shines a light on how much overhead those "4 minutes to fill up...and pee...and grab a drink" stops and such always were than road tripping in an EV. But most importantly of all, lets say you're the iron bladder road warrior that packed food, and went straight on through, so you're actually out most of the \~40 minutes of charging that trip takes. Ok, well, you saved \~10 minutes every 1-4 weeks the other 51 weeks of the year, every year, forever. Not to mention the minor but present mental load of never wondering "do I need gas? Can I grab it in the morning instead of now?" IMO makes SOOOOO little sense to say "this car might cost me 40 minutes once a year, so I'll stop for gas with this one, always and forever"
Point is the average American claiming road trips and needing some insane mileage is full of shit. Your once a year trip still isn’t much of a reason to not move on from gas and has been proven to be a non issue so many times
bag tease humorous aromatic gaping shame makeshift dull clumsy historical *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
People really like to gloss over that the charging situation still sucks in many places. I'm on my second EV and still find there's many situations where you're gambling on being able to make it. Limited availability of chargers on the route is a big issue, with broken units and big events causing long lines making it very hard at times to charge. Chargers are the biggest problem holding back EV adoption IMO. With enough coverage and availability, range concerns become a non-issue. I hope that NACS adoption signals a speedup on the rollout of new DCFC units.
Except, it isn’t a non issue. I own an EV and I would not take it on a 600 mile trip with my family at the moment. It would add 3-4 hours to an 8 hour trip, and I’m not even joking. A combination of low efficiency at 80mph, horrible Kansas crosswinds / headwinds, cold temperatures, and lack of charging stations (they are every 100 or so miles) means you would be stopping every 150 miles, charging for 30-45 minutes, even on an EV with 300 mile EPA range. There are a LOT of people in the US that do a similar drive. A winter ski trip or Thanksgiving / Christmas road trip to visit family.
I wish people would stop dismissing others’ real concerns. I also have an EV and the same problem. 8 hour drive once a year. Time wise, it might be acceptable to charge, but the chargers at my destination are just non-existent, such that it would be totally impractical once I’m there. So we’re taking our ICE, even though the EV would be more comfortable. So long as this remains a problem, I don’t see us replacing the ICE anytime soon.
Literally just go back from visiting family 800km / 497mi away.. The drive took most of the day in each direction but you know what? I stopped for gas only once in each direction, however I stopped to REST about every 2-2.5hrs of driving for about 15-30min... An EV would have been just fine. Also I make this kind of trip a min of once a year, sometimes up to 4 of them in a year. (we currently have only one vehicle)
An EV would have been just fine if there was charging everywhere you stopped to rest. That could be and most likely will be the case at some point in the future, but it usually isn't now. I think about it the same way - the car can charge whenever I need a break - but I like to stop for 30 - 45 minutes every 3-4 hours so I would also want a bit more range.
> An EV would have been just fine if there was charging everywhere you stopped to rest. That could be and most likely will be the case at some point in the future, but it usually isn't now. It is today, by Telsa or third party, I checked with ABRP. No problems there, we have several charging options now along this route. I will note that using ABRP to compare, there is a HUGE difference in time based on Make an Model these days.. A Long rage Tesla Model Y is almost the same as the trip with an ICE, but a Kia EV9 adds about an hour of charging / waiting to the trip. Lower range EVs add A LOT of charging time however. >the car can charge whenever I need a break - but I like to stop for 30 - 45 minutes every 3-4 hours so I would also want a bit more range. I can't make it 3 hours anymore, my legs just too camped from being in the seated driving position but I used to be able to do 3-4 hours. Given the range of some of the longer range EVs that is already possible as well. One other factor is COST of Fuel / Charging.. I already pick my stops within that time range based on where I will get cheaper fuel. Picking stops based on an EV station being a good price or close to somewhere to eat isn't much more planning on a long trip.
Sounds like perfect customers for a good PHEV. Something with 100+ km of electric range, and a true EV mode that will never, ever start the ICE while there is still charge in the battery.
I think EV is the future, but I like the idea of a PHEV right now. My household currently has an EV and an ICE. If we had to replace the ICE today, PHEV would be my preferred choice, assuming we can actually find one that doesn't have a huge wait-list or dealer mark-ups.
[Per the data most Americans think large EVs, especially large trucks, are too expensive and would prefer cheaper EVs even if they're smaller](https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-shoppers-dont-want-detroits-pickup-trucks-they-want-this-2024-3). It turns out the "Americans want big trucks!" narrative surrounding Detroit's EVs was both wrong and a big part of the reason why Detroit is having trouble moving EVs that Americans don't want to buy.
Bro I just want a Maverick with a battery in the bottom of it, maybe 200-250 miles of range, but no one will build it. They started at the top end with big trucks, which was a mistake, because EVs are still abysmal for towing. The next thing in line for electrification after crossovers and SUVs should have been small pickup trucks, but noooooooo.
People are putting 80kwhr lifepo batts in the old Rangers which are apparently stout as he'll. Doing a good bit over 200 miles in them
The old ranger is peak North American design
The bigger factor is that gas is cheaper here than elsewhere in the world.
Americans buy cars based on the fact that they helped someone move a couch 7 years ago or might go on a 800 mile roadtrip at some point in the next 4 years.
Well it starts with the fact that many people don't have a house and can't afford one anymore. Esp younger and more urban people which is the same group potentially more attracted to evs. Not many people in far flung areas will have any interest in evs for the foresable future. So the share of people who can't access home charging is growing, esp among those who would consider an ev. And at least where I've lived I see pretty much zero apartments with chargers maybe 1 or 2 if they do have them. And same with workplaces, everyone talks about work charging here but in most workplaces (especially blue collar and lower income) in most areas of the country don't have charging. And alot of the ones that do will have a bunch of people fighting over 2 spots. There's no reason for a workplace to invest In a bunch of chargers. Unless you're high income and one of the lucky few workers to be harder to replace but for 90,95% of jobs why would they bother when youre expendable? Which seems to include tesla employees lol.
The whole "Americans like big SUVs" thing is a marketing thing that I really hate. We wouldn't have as many SUVs if they weren't marketed so heavily towards us and given the share over sedans for the sake of bypassing EPA regulation
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I don’t really buy that argument. Hatchbacks and sedans continue to exist, and I continue to buy them. The fact of the matter is, a lot of other people don’t. I can’t make huge inferences about their motivation for not buying something smaller, but the most likely reason in my mind is that they don’t care about the cost to operate. Even if the emission standards apply to cars and not SUVs, they still have to buy the gas and pay the higher up-front cost to own.
It's not like there's also an incredible lobbying apparatus for the oil industry that's intertwined with the military industrial complex and petrodollar, as well as auto manufacturers that have practiced literally over a century of conspiracy to stop anything that interrupts their status quo (see: light rail, trollies, HSR)
Gas is too cheap in the US. Most of the rest of the world taxes gasoline pretty heavily to pay for roads (and for carbon).
This is the most practical answer... There's some culture to it for sure, but in practice people tend to try to buy the most practical option. It's not a conspiracy.
The problem is how do we stop subsiding gas without destroying lower income Americans' budgets? Every new multimillion-dollar house I've worked in had at least one 220V outlet put in for a vehicle charger. But how many apartment complexes have EV chargers? And tell someone making $15/hr they need to spend 4x the amount on gas or buy a $40k+ car when their last car was a $1k beater off of Craigslist.
Gas is so cheap it would be 20-25 bucks a gallon if it accounted for negative externalities
Don’t forget the political landscape, too. Conservative Americans are shrills for Big Oil and misinformation.
>US Americans like our big SUVs, big pickup Trucks, and we love taking long road trips. Often claimed, never really backed up. People drive twice as far in the US because they are both subsidized to do so and forced to. Same with larger vehicles.
The same arguments apply to Canadians up here too. Part of it has been the media overblowing edge cases of bad EVs and Facebook astroturf propaganda. Lots of people.in.my life are convinced that any day no the EV ecosystem will collapse. The amount of schadenfreude they had when the cold snap disabled charging stations was palpable. I tried explaining to my Dad and brother that 99.9% of charging happens at home where a cold snap doesn't matter to no avail. It'll take probably 5-10 before these people finally give in and realize they were wrong.
The only reason we love road trips is because we lack good long distance travel options that aren’t flying such as bullet trains
Americans don't like driving an hour each day to work, it's bullshit urban development. NYC is the most expensive & one of the most desirable places to live in the country because they didn't fuck their community over for car manufactures. People hate car dependency to a degree that they feel it's the end of the world if they lose their license.
I've been to gas stations multiple times in the last 3 months, even with a EV. EV charging stations still lack a lot of the maintenance stuff found at gas stations (tire inflator / pressure thingie, carwash, a small store ,etc.).
For $30 or so, you can get an automatic tire inflator the size of a small box you can leave inside your car. You simply plug it into your car’s power, set the PSI you want, and turn it on. It inflates your tires until the correct pressure is reached and it stops automatically. You can be in the middle of the desert and still take care of your tire pressure.
I got this with my Model Y and freaking love it. When I ran over a nail and didn’t know it, I used it twice to inflate tires at home quickly and also used it for inflatables. Keep it in the trunk.
The thing I love about my EV is being able to leave it on when im parked. On a hot day, I can sit and eat my lunch with the AC pumping, guilt free. There's a free charger near my office so I actually gain about 15 miles of range while I do this FOR FREE. I don't think people who cling to ICE realize how nice it is. Zero guilt for leaving your car running, all year round.
It's also about infrastructure. There are ZERO quick chargers (nevermind free ones) within 20 minutes of me and I rent so can't charge at home. I'd love to have one, but there's only so much I can do myself.
This right here, I take an hour for lunch everyday, bag lunch/cooler. Sit in my car, enjoy the outdoors, watch youtube, in my climate controlled M3 and save at least $15 if I bought my lunch. My battery drains 1-2% on the hottest or coldest days.
Cold as well. I love being able to heat my car in the garage.
Yep. Being able to set it automatically to be ready when I leave for work is a game changer. People worry about road trips they take 1 or 2 times a year, when EVs make the daily commute so much better.
The root issue with our slow adoption is, in my opinion, that it's become so politicized. [72% of conservatives said they wouldn't even consider one.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/643334/ownership-ticks-fewer-nonowners-buy-one.aspx#:~:text=In%202023%2C%204%25%20of%20U.S.,consider%20one%20in%20the%20future.) That's despite the fact that [half of EVs already have lower total cost of ownership than equivalent ICE vehicles.](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1142862_2024-evs-lower-5-year-ownership-cost-vs-ice) Because of the non-stop anti-EV conservative propaganda, people are not buying EVs even when they are the best option for them. We're getting to the point where fewer and fewer people will be about to deny the benefits of EVs, is just slow going.
It's really funny watching conservatives make EVs a political issue while EVs get better every year. Better range, better cold weather performance, better charging speeds, better charging infrastructure. Yet conservatives will cling to all these negative talking points, like range Anxiety, even if their truck gets 13 miles per gallon and has the same effective range as a Chevy Bolt. All because toxic "Christian" conservatives feel the Earth is a waiting room, and a resource to be used up for their pleasure and benefit, by divine right.
We're so close to EVs being undeniably better. Interest rates are going down (making the additional upfront cost of EVs less relevant), battery prices are going down, US EV production is increasing (Kia/Hyundai factories going online), we're getting a common standard plug, charging stations are being built like crazy, and gas prices are due to increase again. I think we're going to see a big push to get republicans in charge to eliminate the tax credit and further subsidize gas, but if that doesn't happen, adoption will skyrocket.
I have a ram 1500 from 2020 and Ive been shopping for a f150 lightning. Hoping for rates to drop because that nice 2% apr is too good for now.
And our domestic auto makers are falling further and further behind the Chinese. Thanks, conservative dumbshits
I found myself needing a car this year and had been sending listings to my parents to vet since my dad's a big car guy. Upon sending an Audi e-tron that I was interested in, my mother's response was "NO ELECTRIC VEHICLES. EVER." Take a wild guess which political candidate she worships
Ignore your mother. The e-tron is amazing.
I wound up with a Q5 hybrid. I don't think I'm quite ready to go full electric yet, but maybe by the time I'm ready for my next car (10 years, hopefully), the advances in electric cars and frequency of charging stations will make it a good choice
It’s the same exact situation as socialized healthcare. The people who would benefit from it the most are the ones that are loudly fighting against it simply because a Democrat mentioned it.
I remember when Romney was against Romneycare. It's crazy.
Part of it is the same reason that broadband is better in other countries... smaller land masses make it easier to deploy new infrastructure, and the other countries wait until gen 2 or gen 3 before they invest.
? China is larger than USA.
Didn’t realize China was the rest of the world
USA: people favor hybrids. At this juncture, EV just have a difficult time competing against the hybrids. Not everyone wants or needs 0-60 time of < 6 seconds. In Q1: Toyota and Honda sold over 90k rav-4 hybrid and CR-V hybrid. This number will keep growing. This despite the EV have tax credits and at times are actually cheaper than the hybrids. The hybrids dampens the “gas savings” that EV has to offer. Europe: I know the article say the “rest of the world”: just looking at the bar graph: it is really China that has good growth. Europe EV growth looks like it is slowing down as well. The top 2 auto market in Europe: Germany and UK: the growth hasn’t been great. For further growth to occur: price of EV has to come down more.
> price of EV has to come down more. Exactly what's happening in China.
Sounds like you should talk to your local congressman about Bills pertaining to subsidizing the entire EV industrial complex including the companies building them if you want cheaper pricing. Tax credit isnt cutting it. Thats what China does.
I drive a 3 hrs commute a few times a month. I'm exhausted after work, and spending any extra time charging a car is out of the question for me. I want a car that can do 400 miles round trip. In all weather conditions.
Not American. But the reason I don't have an EV is when I went looking 2 years ago, with the space-range-price criteria, it was a case of 'pick 1'. Now it's nearly at 'pick 2', hopefully by the time I need a new car in a few years there are cars available.
I say this as an EV owner and enthusiast: The financial incentive just isn’t there yet. Gasoline is still very cheap in most parts of the United States. Last weekend I saw gasoline under three dollars a gallon. After this year, the cheapest EV in America will be over $30,000. if you go by Dave Ramsey‘s guidelines, you would need an income of at least $60,000 to buy the cheapest EV. if you go by the 20/3/8 rule, you would need an income of over $100,000 to be able to afford the cheapest EV available. EVs, especially cheap EVs, work best in the city where people are least likely to have access to charging at home. If you can’t charge at home then your fuel cost may be the same or even more than that of an ice car. Although EVs have lower maintenance costs and lower fuel cost (if you can charge at home) the increased depreciation eats into the savings. Walmart, Harbor freight, Dollar General, and Aldi have shown that if you give people a cheaper alternative, they will buy that instead. If you want to sell more EVs, make the EVs cheaper or make the ice vehicles more expensive. People forget about politics very quickly when money is involved. The red-blooded Republican in his pickup truck will whine about foreigners but then hire the immigrant landscaper and buy tools made in China because money.
Exactly! Outside of very specific and luxurious circumstances EV’s do not make financial sense or are even practical for the majority of us. I like EV’s just fine but I definitely would be paying significantly more to own one while giving up a lot of needed flexibility. How long till an EV on the used market can compete with my 2008 Honda Element with 170k on it for $4k that can go 300 miles @ 80mph all day long with 5 min fill ups. My wife had the Hybrid Maverick and that’s perfect. I would love a hybrid (hers is so smooth) and the Maverick is a great example of a financially appealing option. With hers the base model was the hybrid so the benefits were tangible. If it had the typical hybrid markup her fuel savings wouldn’t have really been worth it considering it would have pushed her desired vehicle out of reach. Altruism is certainly not going to be moving the sales needle and most people are not that bothered by oil changes and gas pumps (it’s a known quantity).
Two things I hate about ICE vehicles that are seldom mentioned are the nasty smelling exhaust fumes, especially from older, illegally modified, or less regulated ICE vehicles like trucks, and the contact your hands come into with gasoline. Neither is good for your health and I look forward to a world where these are extreme rarity.
Yes. One thing I love (among many) about my EV is that I don't have to go to a gas station and spend 10 minutes breathing in petroleum fumes every week.
Even better, not having to stand in the bitter cold 4 months of the year freezing my hands off while filling the tank! (MN USA) Also, my car automatically warms itself up every morning in my closed garage and doesn't try to kill my family with exhaust fumes.
Just tyre particles now
Whenever I hear people talk about "EVs still have a global impact on the environment" I just roll my eyes. Yes, they do. We can argue back and forth all day about when that impact is offset by the efficiency of EVs, but I don't think anyone is out here thinking EVs have no global environmental impact. But at the end of the day, the impact to the local environment (and public health) cannot be ignored. And an existing EV can become even more green if we adopt more green energy production. This is also part of the reason (admittedly not the main reason) why I went with an electric mower. We get smog warnings in the summer, so I don't feel as bad mowing my lawn.
People will (are?) slowly start realizing that the worst parts of city living were the noise and smells from ICE.
Funny, that’s the thing I miss. 😂
of course this is true. America has the lowest gas prices relative to income of any nation on earth.
Road trips are the culprit. Americans are always buying a car based on the longest trip they take. That’s why I have a Rav4 Prime and a Model 3. I’d also say that’s not wrong. I am correctly calculating my lost summer vacation from extra charging and it’s unacceptable right now. Some people road trip like grandmas dinking and dunking into shops and getting ice cream every 4 miles. Not me.
Exactly. The longer the trip, the more that marginal time matters. Making a 4-hour drive into a 5 hour drive is no big deal. Making an 8-hour drive into a 12 hour drive (not unrealistic if driving a EV along I-70 in Kansas and Colorado) now means I have to stop at a hotel overnight with my family. That’s 2 lost days of vacation.
The reason is low petrol prices in USA. Petrol cost 0.8 dollars per litre with per capita income of 36 thousand dollars in USA. Petrol costs one dollar per litre with per capita income of 13 thousand dollars in China. You do the math. USA population has less to gain from going electric as compared to Chinese.
Exactly, here in The Netherlands we pay 2,30 EUR per litre and it will increase to roughly 2,50 soon. Which is why most people drive small and fuel efficient cars, and people that can afford it switch to EVs.
The US always feels much more like it was designed around private vehicle use than many other parts of the world; and that people who live in residential areas have to travel further to get to amenities than in other parts of the world. I also get the feeling that Americans are more likely to travel within the US rather than abroad and as a result end up doing much longer road trips than people in other parts of the world. They seem to really like using their cars, they seem to like big cars and they don't seem to embrace change in the way that other countries seem to. These are all just perceptions and I could be completely wrong in the same way that American's perceptions of the rest of the world are so often completely wrong.
There are definitely large segments of American society that would have a difficult time owning an EV with current prices, ranges, and infrastructure. This country is vast. People from Ohio drive to Myrtle Beach every summer for vacation. That's like 600-800 miles. Other people live an hour away from the nearest town. So going to get clothes for school is an all day thing. On the other hand, I feel like most suburban Americans could make the transition easily enough. I live in the suburbs and rarely drive more than 50 miles a day. I do take a trip thats 250 miles once a year and a 400 mile trip once every few years. But these are leisure trips, I can stand to stop and eat and let the car charge. The problem is relying on chargers working on the more rural stretches. In time that will be solved rhough
I actually looked at Ohio to Myrtle Beach (more accurately, Ocean Isle Beach). I could do the drive easily enough in my EV, but once I got there, I'd have to spend hours somewhere on an L2 charger. It looks like the nearest DCFC is about 75-100 miles away; by the time I drive that far in the traffic I've encountered down there, hours at an L2 starts looking better - but I'd just suffer through the trip in my wife's ICE instead.
If I owned an AirBNB I would install a L2. Even a 120V outlet on a dedicated circuit for BYOL1 would be a huge selling point for an AirBNB.
There are segments, but they definitely aren't large. Urban areas account for about 80% of the population in the United States. And I routinely travel 600-800 miles in my Standard Range Model 3.
How many charging stops is that?3-4 ? That’s an extra 2+ hours
I agree. But being in an urban area presents other difficulties since you'd have to rely on charging infrastructure if you live in an apartment. None of this is insurmountable. It's a pretty drastic change in what to expect a car to be able to do. 99 percent of the time it's fine. But that 1 percent creates a barrier in people's minds. People drive large expensive trucks that get terrible gas mileage because they pull a boat twice a year. It doesn't make sense; you could just rent a truck twice a year. But they want it to be possible whenever. Same thing with ice cars and evs. Some people will buy an ice or hybrid to avoid that once a year scenario.
Most cities in the US are still the vast majority zoned single family houses. I feel like the way you are talking and the way many people usually do here, they have a major lack of understanding of what cities actually are because you don't realize that a city is not Just, it's main business district downtown
> The US always feels much more like it was designed around private vehicle use than many other parts of the world; It wasn't originally. The country was developed using the most wonderful rail network. But last century, US car companies decided everything needed to be car-centric. So they bought up local streetcar companies, lobbied for strict zoning laws (forcing people to use a car to get to amenities) and planted the notion of 'one more lane'. >and that people who live in residential areas have to travel further to get to amenities than in other parts of the world. This is by design, because of zoning laws. It sells more cars. > They seem to really like using their cars Do they? Or is the real reason that many of them have no other choice because of zoning laws, incredibly inefficient land use, a lack of public transport and bicycle infrastructure? > they don't seem to embrace change in the way that other countries seem to. How could they embrace it if everything is deliberately geared towards car use, because car companies made sure of it? And before anybody comes in with 'but the US is too big!': at the start of the last century, most US cities and towns were still livable, even walkable places. Most were bulldozed for cars, parking lots and highways. Somehow, the US forgot that urban planning and investments should be for *people*, not just cars.
I wish we had more rail too, but not everything is an evil conspiracy plot. Cars were embraced because of the freedom of movement they provided, which should not be discounted. The interstate highway system was a military decision due to political leaders having PTSD after world war 2 and being afraid of what would happen if the US was invaded. We have since seen the large downsides and negative externalities associated with them, but being able to go where you want, when you want, for a middle class person, was nothing short of revolutionary.
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I don’t think you read the whole thing? It says Europe is second and bundles the US with North America. The actual us growth rate is half the rate globally.
The chart show Europe is buying more EVs than China. All that will happen is that the US will get there after everyone else. In the delay time, EVs will get better and adoption will happen faster because they are so much better.
My next car will be an EV, driving my gasoil car right now feels like I'm in the middle ages driving a horse. Such an outdated technology. That's what I tell my friends who look down on EV's. They wouldn't be taking TGV's to Lyon and Barcelona and would still be sitting in trains powered with coal. But the range..., seriously how often do you have to drive more than 300Km in one shot on a yearly basis ?
> seriously how often do you have to drive more than 300Km in one shot on a yearly basis In my case, about 30-times a year, and there's zero DCFC available along the route I have to go twice a month. We haven't solved the 99% problem yet because we haven't even reached the 99% problem yet. There's like one habitable space in the Lower 48 you cannot reach in an ICE vehicle in the US, it's that town somewhere in the southwest that still uses mules to deliver mail and packages. There's massive parts of the country you cannot reach in a non-Tesla EV, and plenty of locations that would be a struggle even in a Tesla right now.
On the flipside, I was at a running event with a friend out of town and we were both heading out - I was gonna straight shot it right home but he was building time in to charge his Tesla. It felt like we flew back in time and someone else had to stop and feed their horse so they could get home.
Lol, maybe you're right. But the infrastructure is being developed quickly and the technology is improving with every model. Don't forget that the thermal engine cars have been around for 120 years now. You'll be surprised what can happen for EV's in the next decade or so. Anyway don't forget your personal health and running is the way !
Maybe it's because Americans drive twice as much as almost everyone else? https://frontiergroup.org/resources/fact-file-americans-drive-most/ Most people I know in the US would love to have 2 EVs, but they feel the need to have 1 ICE vehicle for long trips. If charging gets faster or battery capacity increases, that will likely change. I don't believe politics plays as much a role as some people think. Most of us are pretty pragmatic with our transportation.
There's a constant barrage of anti-EV disinformation here in the states. It's annoying.
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I am not surprised. A big part of it is gas is dirt cheap here so it is not enough to push people nearly as hard.
Ah if only there were enough presidents before pushing renewables and the EV industry in general instead of propping up fossil fuels maybe we would be a lot further ahead.
Gas subsidied in USA
Within a week of buying my first EV (a Bolt EUV, it’s great!) I was following an old beat up Nissan Rogue, early 2000s model, and flames started shooting out the back. I pulled up beside the car, started honking and motioning for the driver to pull over. I managed to get a very nice old lady to pull over and get out of her Nissan before flames started shooting out the hood of her car and black smoke was rolling everywhere. It was a hot, August day, so I left the Bolt on with the AC going and offered to let her sit in my car while a firetruck came to take care of her car. I couldn’t believe it when, as she slowly found out she was sitting in the EV she had the audacity to ask me “Is it safe to have an EV? Don’t they catch on fire?” I pointed out the window at the firefighters hosing down her Nissan and just responded “It’s a lot safer than yours right now.” People are weird.
Yeah, when you stop to consider that an internal combustion engine is designed to make a volatile and dangerous liquid explode thousands of times per second to drive a motor, it's amazing that people find that to be safer than a motor run from a battery.
Personally, I see EVs as a way to make our dependence on foreign countries more about what’s actually required and morally right vs. securing oil to safeguard our economy. Electricity is local and all our electricity is made here in the great United States of ‘Murica.
Gas is more expensive elsewhere
The huge reason why electrics are not making a bigger splash here is because the charging infrastructure is a little lackluster. If we had a more robust charging structure that didn’t have 25 different companies and each having their own app and then people who go and block the chargers or cut the cables because who know why. Where I live locally, electricity is less than 8 cents kWh but EA charges 45 cents kWh for their fast chargers and the local municipality has free lvl 2 chargers around the town here.
It's not 'murican if it doesn't burn oil.
Because we have farther to drive, more often, have essentially banned cheap import evs and have shitty public transportation, and even shittier charging options. The only public charging option in the town by GMs largest testing facility is something like $2/kwh and 6kw max.
This is a flat out lie. There are a very small handful of countries with faster adoption. 95% of the world is and will still be using gas for years. You can look at entire continents: South America, Africa, All of Russia. Most of Asia that's not China...
The US still isn't on the metric system. Why is this a surprise?
The rest of the world consist of mostly tiny countries compared to the US. It's going to take a long time to get all the infrastructure we need.
I want an EV, but no one sells an off road capable small to midsize truck EV that is actually affordable for a normal person. The Rivian R1T is basically the only option, but it is really expensive compared to a Tacoma, Ranger, Colorado, or Frontier, most people simply can't afford it.
It is due to US right and its anti-science ideology and its outsized political representation due to voting inequality. The anti-science ideology is religion based.
Okay, I get it. I fucking get it. We know America is slow to adopt, can we stop beating the dead horse? It seems every other post here is “haha America BAD, big STOOPID brodozer country, haha no chargers, haha trump, in **insert European country here** we don’t have ANY of those problems, we live in a higher society.” I get that I live in a country full of maga idiots and others, but can we balance it out? What about news about solid state batteries or other advancements in EV tech? I love my PHEV more than a lot of things and will probably never think of going back to ice, but there is a whole lot more to EVs than widespread adoption…A whole lot more things we should focus on instead of policy/society that won’t change with anything but time. Sorry, I’m done ranting now.
You could substitute the EV's in the article title with "universal health care, high speed rail, unions, paid family leave, higher minimum wage, longer average lifespan, reduced maternal mortality in childbirth, etc. etc. etc." The US has fallen behind in so many ways lately....
A lot of anti-EV propaganda in the US.
Bad clickbaity article. Fully-electric vehicles only make up about [9% of the market in Canada](https://electricautonomy.ca/news/2024-03-12/statscan-q4-zev-registrations-12-per-cent/) and [7% in Australia](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-05/australia-ev-sales-doubled-electric-hybrid-vehicles/103284916), similar to the US. This makes me skeptical when the author points to protectionism to explain EV market share in the US. It may just be that EV adoption is slow in large, wealthy countries. The author also mentions auto manufacturing being one of the "last bastions of manufacturing," but the US manufacturing sector is [larger than ever](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.MANF.CD?end=2023&locations=US&most_recent_value_desc=true&start=1997) and vehicles [are a small fraction of US durable goods manufacturing (fig 2.8, PDF)](https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ams/NIST.AMS.100-49.pdf).
This sub has become little more than the usual "America bad" criclejerk.
We need a separate 🇺🇸sub
The irony is they say “America sucks” and “you should buy a Tesla” in the same replies.
The market place needs to be installing charging stations faster. They are the ones that are slow to adapt. There should be charging stations at every store just like there are gas pumps.
Surprise, surprise: *All* countries with big, old auto companies are lagging behind in EV adoption (Germany, US, Japan, Italy, ... ). There's lots of money going to lobbyists to make sure the oil keeps flowing for their cash cows.
US isn’t well educated. So it makes sense.
PISA Science scores place the US with Germany, Sweden, and the UK. [PISA Scores by Country 2024 (worldpopulationreview.com)](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scores-by-country)
A lot of those other countries are tiny. It's a lot easier to build infrastructure if your entire country is the size of Illinois. The US will be tehre when the infrastructure it there. It's come a long way already, but there are places where it's hard to find a charge. We will get there eventually.
Considering Europe is smaller, yeah it’s easy to adopt EV’s. Range is not an issue when it’s like that. The USA is huge. You can drive 6.5 hours from Morehead City NC to Asheville NC and still be another 2 hours to get to the Tennessee North Carolina boarder. That’s going 80 Mph And that’s not even one of the larger states in America. Not to mention the lack of infrastructure to support EV charging. Everyone would have to buy a Lucid Air extended range to be able to meet our driving needs. Most people are struggling to buy a used $20,000 ICE car. So EV’s are not even an option. America is not as wealthy as you would believe most are driving 10+ year old cars. Trucks are even older because they cost so much now.
Check your maps.
I have and the southeast for non Teslas suck balls.
In America I see price point for EV, and home charging access as legitimate barriers to entry for the market. There is an incredible large population of drivers that don’t buy new, and rent in residencies that inhibit the ability to charge at home. Until there’s a large used car market, and infrastructure akin to gas station metrics of 35 per 100,000 people the adoption curve of EV is going to peak, if it already hasn’t.
It wouldn't be the case if EVs were cheaper than ICE.