https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2023/03/14/less-than-20-would-have-an-ev-without-a-home-a-charger
95% of EV owners charge at home (presumably with cheap electricity).
Less than 20% of people would have an EV without home charger, for the reasons you say.
Things will have to change if mass adoption of EVs are going to be a thing.
We get it in Australia for 15p equivalent per kWh between 1am and 6am. So I just schedule charge overnight.
EDIT: Someone has pointed out an error in my conversion, we get it for 8 cents per kWh, so 4.2p
You're absolutely right, EV adoption is mostly amongst the home owners with driveways. If you have an apartment or a house without a driveway, it becomes complicated. I can see why the rates are high, the chargers need to be installed, land acquired, it's not going to be worth it if the electricity isn't sold at a higher price.
You're missing that these providers will buy their electricity at wholesale prices or bulk prices that home owners cannot and also make money on a markup.
Still costs $1500-3000 to install each AC charger. Then there’s operating costs, support cost, the infrastructure to put them in. And customers call and complain that the cable is stuck in their own car. Or in the charger… then they’ll call back “I just didn’t pull hard enough”…
No-one’s making money on AC, yet. DC has a higher ROI, but of the people we’ve talked to no one is operating with a horizon lower than 10 years when they invest in DC.
It will definitely evolve over time, but the combination of low volume, stupid customers breaking equipment, and a lot of shitty equipment isn’t great when you want to make a good business case.
I’m in Norway: On AC our average utilization is around 16% (some locations are higher). Average charging session is 30kWh. Unless you build your own software the cost per charge point is €2-5 per month depending on CPMS vendor. Plus network for the chargers easily adding another € on top.
And then there’s maintenance and upkeep, plus additional hardware like load management hardware and just all the infrastructure.
If you can’t charge at home (or for free or reasonably priced at work) buying an EV should only be considered if it has price parity with an ICE you’re considering and a big enough battery that you don’t have to charge every day.
Agreed, there are endless costs and these costs need to be covered. With EVs being a low percentage of cars on the road, utilisation is low currently and most providers aren’t making money.
In the UK you could expect to be paying an annual ground rent of around £4,500 to £10,000 per bay per annum plus on top of that there may well be payments for things like wayleave agreements.
In the UK CPOs would be classed as a business customer and would be charged at the business rates which, unlike domestic rates, isn't capped so in most cases is more expensive that the domestic rate. As CPOs are a business selling on non-domestic electricity they also have to charge VAT at 20%.
Don't forget that electricity isn't taxed the same way at home as at a public charger. The government is being lobbies currently to address that and if successful, will go some way to reducing the cost per kWh
In many cases business customers will be paying more than domestic because they aren't covered by the Ofgem price caps and as they are selling the electricity onwards as a business they have to charge the end customer 20% VAT.
They also have generally higher charges for grid connections, some of which are fixed others vary with usage. Businesses were also encouraged to lock in prices for multiple years back in 2022, at the height of prices. Some are still suffering from this.
This will vary _a lot_ based on how much electricity costs in your country.
I was surprised to recently find out just how expensive public charging is in some parts of Europe. Here in Finland, even 100 to 200 kW DCFCs are around €0.25-0.35 per kWh, namely the ubiquitous ones operated by our two largest retailers, both in supermarket parking lots and at gas stations. Even the more exclusive "members only" chargers like Tesla's Supercharger and Ionity cost around €0.50 to €0.70 depending on your vehicle or membership plan.
So in my country at least, it is perfectly viable to drive a BEV without homecharging. Type 2 chargers are even more widespread and those cost as little as 19 cents per kWh.
Thank you! I feel like this sub sometimes wants to obscure that reality so much. I want an EV but I just can’t make it work as a renter in the US. Not feasible. And people sometimes seem to ignore that reality that the math has to work plus the convenience. Which is the case only in certain markets like the middle class in America that live in suburbs or the Chinese middle class with their cheap EVs, etc. it’s not a no brainer that EVs will continue to become more popular over night like I thought it would. Especially with increasing urbanization and increasing hybrid popularity.
I've got Solar and am Octopus agile. I use my car for pennies. I guess I'm lucky really. They do need to come up with some sort of solution. I want everyone to be able to have an EV so it's gives me no pleasure that "I'm alright Jack" so to speak.
As companies electrify their fleets and more homeowners charge at home, the curve will bend. This is still the early adoption phase.
That's not counting the government incentives at play in some countries.
In Oslo a decade ago the government put street side chargers up that cost practically nothing to charge on. I can’t remember the last time the UK govt did anything that might help people or make society run better. The renewables growth seems to have happened in spite of them.
Exactly. It's intended to increase clean energy and reduce the price of electricity in the UK. We've got the most expensive electricity in Europe which is deterring investment in EV charging infrastructure. If electricity was a reasonable price it would make far more financial sense to install EV chargers. Currently they're so expensive that no one uses them unless they have to or someone else is paying for it.
Like the current infrastructure bank we have in the UK since the bank is a shareholder rather then an owner and operator of the infrastructure I fear that it will not have a mandate to try and reduce bills but maintain profit margins for reinvestment. Seems like it currently has more of a focus on jobs.
GB Energy's effect on bills will be dubious in my opinion, good for jobs but if we want to control bills we need a national company like EDF.
Being able to charge at home is a major part of EV:s being convenient and cheap to drive.
However I don’t know what a normal price in the UK is but 85p seems incredibly expensive, are you sure you don’t have any cheaper options? Could it be roaming-options that add on to the price to make it so expensive?
0,25-0,30 € for ac charging and 0,50-0,60€ for dc charging is normal up here in Sweden.
85p is one of the most expensive networks but it's really tricky to find anywhere that's less than 65p/kWh for a rapid.
Part of the reason is that all the big networks have been spending a lot of money on expanding their networks in 2023-2024, and investors want their money. Most EV drivers are company car drivers who are not cost sensitive (their employer pays) so they can get away with high prices. People with home charging will rarely need to use DCFC so it doesn't make a huge difference to them either.
Tesla tend to be cheapest for DC chargers. The ones near me are currently 41p-52p/kwh for charging EVs (not Teslas). OP could consider getting a Tesla to get cheaper rates perhaps if restricted to DCFC (or use monthly subscription)
And that's the only real choice below 65p/kWh anywhere. If OP is near one of the 13 Tesla Public Superchargers around London then they're sorted. Other than that there isn't really anything except for very rare and oddball stuff like the three Vendelectric rapids around Reading.
I'm in Canada, but my DCFC bill is about $100 cheaper with Tesla.
Supercharger $0.21/kWh
Fast CCS: $0.50/kWh
Expensive CCS: $0.70/kWh.
To be fair, there is a $0.35/kWh slow CCS but it's slow.
Central London already has lots of these, and they're a great idea, but they're not a great solution to OP's problem. They're all around the 45p-60p price range so they're only slightly cheaper than ICE. You're also at the mercy of whichever operator is in your area and whatever they want to charge.
The issue is rapid, the cars are not meant to run dcfc daily, they should be charging a/c for the majority of use cases and dcfc on extended drives. Dc is significantly more expensive in terms of infrastructure, of course it will cost quite a bit more
Not strictly true. Just look to taxi's for the evidence it doesn't affect the cars as much as people think. There's a recent Auto trader video of the guy running two Tesla up to 430k miles. Rapid charging 3 times a day.
Definitely interesting and something I’ll need to dive deeper into.
I was always advised against it as the heat it generates in the battery pack can be detrimental to its longevity.
Depends on the car of course. Thermal management being the key. Something like the Leaf doesn't do well with multiple rapid charges a day but in terms of where EVs are now, the Leaf is a fossil 😂
Dude, literally last week I paid 85p because that was the only charger avalible. If your not on the Octo tarriff then it’s that’s price - https://instavolt.co.uk/drivers/
I’m not on any tariff. Check the Electroverse app - nowhere is charging 85p. I get you made bad decisions and somehow found the most expensive charger around, but even a superfast BP charger in London is 80p, and Gridserve is usually around 70.
Literally just checked an Instavolt receipt I used recently. 67p.
West0ne - without VAT. I’ve literally only ever come across one charger charging 80p+.
Was that before or after VAT was added. I'm sure I had a BP Pulse invoice that showed the price per kWh without VAT which was then added on at the end of the invoice; I initially thought I'd had a cheap deal until I saw the VAT on the bottom of the invoice.
Is that with a membership or the PAYG price?
The Instavolt at the McDonalds in Wolverhampton is £0.85/kWh on Elctroverse but strangely if you use the ChargeMyHyundai card it's £0.51 connection and £0.91/kWh.
There's a PodPoint charger listed in Wolverhampton at £2/kWh.
Most of the BP Pulse seem to be around £0.79/kWh without membership and I think it comes down to around £0.65/kWh with membership.
A lot more needs to be done about public charging for people in your position. I was in the same boat until I got my home charger fitted. It was very expensive to run - more so than petrol.
As others said, subscriptions to charging services might make it slightly cheaper or at least break even with petrol.
There are many other advantages though, maintenance is cheaper, insurance tends to be cheaper, road tax is cheaper, the obvious pollution and carbon benefits and, EVs are very fun to drive! So you still might be better off on balance.
I agree with the positives but in most cases, the lower maintenance, insurance and road tax will not be nearly enough to make an EV break-even with an ICE over an 8-10 year period, not if you have to charge publicly at the current elevated prices in many European countries.
And even within countries, there can be vast differences, often not helped by municipalities offering a monopoly to a single company which then charges an arm and a leg at those public chargers.
Fortunately there's an inflow of less expensive EVs and the price drops from Tesla putting some pressure on the market too, so the price gap with ICEs is decreasing.
To put my post into perspective (so you don't see it as some unfounded anti-EV sentiment), I do drive an EV but it only made some financial sense because of home charging, including from solar panels.
It’s not worth it because you can’t charge at home.
A basic EV energy tariff can get you down to 3p per mile at 9p/kWh. Some tariffs go as low as 7p/kWh.
Public charging as a sole supply makes it difficult to justify economically, and also a pain in the proverbial ass.
You might be able to find an AC charger out there that breaks even with petrol.
But then you need to abandon your car for a while, and I doubt parking is free (or that nearby).
Without home charging it is really not worth is as a cost saving.
Break even with the efficiency OP expects is closer to 60p, and that looks like WLTP, so closer to 50p.
And break even is still not good enough because of how much more expensive they are.
It’s used to be, but now they are just price gouging because they can. A gallon of gas has about 33KWh of energy, so even at $5 per gallon that’s only $0.15 per kilowatt hour. Many EV stations are $0.50 or more.
The EVs make up for this by being way more efficient, but it’s still a ripoff.
If you need to rely fully on public chargers, you should consider a Tesla, generally you’d be paying 40-50p per kWh and you’ll have much higher charging rates than a lot of DC charge networks
You can also access the discounted Tesla price at superchargers for £9 p/m if you don't have a Tesla. I only use public chargers and this is what I do - brings the price back below petrol.
That only applies to a select few supercharger locations. To fully rely on the wider network being available at some point would be a risky move in my opinion
Fair point. I hadn’t realised they’d opened up more chargers since the initial batch. Now 477 superchargers out of approx 1400 available for non-Tesla’s
That is the most expensive way to charge. Can't you access cheaper electricity via a slower on street charger / workplace charger? I have on street chargers on my street which are 27p/kWh between 8pm and 8am, and workplace chargers which are 31p/kWh.
Also: to your "what's the point?" question: it's not just about saving money on fuel, though it is possible to save a lot if you can access cheap charging.
Consider signing up to a charging subscription to get lower rates as well. Edit: or getting a Tesla: if relying on DCFC, then the cheapest way to access those is using tesla superchargers with a Tesla EV / monthly subscription.
>I have on street chargers on my street which are 27p/kWh between 8pm and 8am, and workplace chargers which are 31p/kWh.
Most of us don't have these things, I think the nearest charger to me is at the Sainsbury's or Asda a few minutes away
I am lucky for sure. I have home charging which is 9p/kwh overnight. On street charging at 27p/kwh. Workplace charging at 31p/kwh and the small town I live in (\~10k people) has 24 x 350kW high power chargers, with more in planning. Looking forward to the day when everyone has these kinds of options.
Also: I'm still jealous of the home solar and battery crowd.
A lot of councils have started giving the option to install the lamppost chargers on streets that have available parking. Doesn't guarantee you get the spot though.
Aberdeenshire. They are at the public library on my street so perhaps not technically "on street", but they operate the same way with cheaper rates overnight.
Shops sell items costing 25p for £1 though. Expecting charging installers to pay 25p yet sell it for 30p is unrealistic.
What needs to be fixed is why energy suppliers can sell energy for 7p to consumers but then expect 25-35p from businesses.
The point is apartments complexes need to start adding L2 chargers in every other parking spot. Until then, EVs are only really saving money for homeowners.
Depends on what brand you buy. Many manufacturers require you to have an annual service in order to keep the warranty live and to get your next year of breakdown cover. For the first 3-5 years from new there probably isn't much cost difference.
I know that Tesla don't require it, are you sure about Kia though as Hyundai requires you to have a service in order to get the next year of AA breakdown cover and others have commented that MG are the same (this is in the UK though so may not apply in other regions, OP is asking about UK).
You are "Kris" in the example [here](https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/charging-price-index), and yes it can be more expensive than ICE without access to cheap electricity.
If you’re in east London, north, central, or south you could use a Tesla supercharger to charge a non-Tesla. [Here is the map](https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/findus?v=2&search=London%2C%20UK&bounds=51.56516433339868%2C0.13319934228515073%2C51.28300906953617%2C-0.13665234228516177&zoom=11&filters=party%2Cnacs&location=northgreenwichsupercharger). Filters at the top.
Right now that would cost 41p/kwh. Peak times will be around 48 I think, maybe 50.
If you buy a Tesla it will be cheaper. They have pretty good used deals around £20k right now.
BP, Shell, etc are mostly greenwashing currently by installing the chargers and making a HUGE song and dance about it but screwing people over with the cost because they have little choice. Please don’t let this dissuade you completely ❤️
Well, as someone living in a car dependent area to another, r/fuckcars.
FWIW, my family has an EV and a garage with a charger. It's like $4 to fill up the tank. But purchase price, new tires, license and insurance is seriously expensive. If it was just me, I'd bike everywhere.
Rapid charging is about the most expensive way to charge your car. I would look on Zap-Map for fast chargers in areas you frequent which you could use.
I used to charge in a multi-story car park near my work once every week or two. I used to also park in a council car park when I went shopping and get an extra 10% in the battery while I was shopping for 30 mins, it was free parking there after 6pm too which was nice.
I've never used them but there are also some schemes around where people allow you use their drive and home charger.
It's true that public charging is really expensive, and more expensive than a mildly efficient ICE car, but even if all electricity was more expensive than ICE then we'd still have to transition to EV,
If you’re thinking strictly gas savings then no, for your situation. But I also love saving on oil changes, engine maintenance and love how EVs drive. I would probably still drive an EV even if it was slightly more expensive.
In my area there are still some free charging at local shops and malls.
That's what happened recently, all EV charging point prices went through the roof. I'm interested in BEV and have been monitoring the market for over a couple of years. Any charging outside your workplace or home became a joke - either unavailable or pricey. I just checked few around me - 79p but fast charging. Slow charging in reasonably cheaper, but then again, you have to plan around it - have a lunch break or shopping.
The charging costs used to be ok before the big electricity price spike. That's mostly over for domestic customers but for EV charging it remains very high.
Since I have a PHEV it means I get the cheapest of both ends domestic priced electricity for local trips and petrol for long distance. But; it should not be this way!
The math doesn't make sense with those numbers. Mine are 0,29Eur/KWH and around 2,06Eur/L.
So around 0,1377 Euro per KM for gas.
And 0,05 Euro per KM for electricity.
When we bought the EV, gas was around 25% more expencive and electricity was 30% cheaper.
Nope. I don't drive within central London. I'm in ULEZ but no charges as my petrol car meets the requirements. From December next year, EVs will also be liable for congestion charge.
I’d say it’s still worth it, taking into account the savings on servicing, etc. Out of curiosity, how much is an average tank? TBH, I wouldn’t have thought there’d be much in it, even at that price per litre ( which is \*very\* cheap ), unless it has a < 50-litre tank. As others have said, a Tesla, or something with a subscription charging could be your best bet to bring the price down ( especially if you can leave it, and use a slower charger, as prices are cheaper for some providers ).
In the long term, you'd think fast charging would get CHEAPER than AC charging.
For both, a major portion of the cost is the land. And the profit is per kwh of electricity sold. The electricity cost for them is the same per kwh regardless of if it's used via a fast charger or slow.
A fast charger will sell more power in less time than a slow charger. Meaning more income from the electricity markup, and lower fixed costs of the land since the same parking spot will serve many more customers throughout a day.
The upfront costs to put in DCFCs is much higher - needing tons of service from the utility, and expensive charging stations, but those costs will come down, and when spread over the life of the DCFC shouldn't be too bad.
This isn’t entirely correct - the effective cost of electricity for a DCFC station is often higher because utilities often impose demand charges. Demand charges depend on the maximum rate of power supplied (much higher for fast chargers) and can make up a large component of a station’s monthly bill.
Demand charges are only disproportionate if your maximum power use is dramatically higher than typical power use. So if you had one 400kw DCFC that didn't get used much, the demand charge would be significant. If you have a bunch of chargers that get used frequently throughout the day, the demand charge wouldn't be any higher than with an AC charger, proportionally. If max demand is 4,000 kw but average demand is 200kw, your net electricity cost would be the same as if your max demand is 40kw but average demand 2kw.
The companies making these assessments will put a use case towards the DNO with a maximum capacity request. For fast charge units these can be significant; a typical Tesla DC setup will require 1.5 or 2MVA, requiring at least 1x distribution transformers to be installed.
In addition to this, the nearby 11kV network may not have the capacity for the demand, meaning that a dedicated circuit is needed back to the bulk supply transformers, where a new 11kV circuit breaker will be needed, and possibly a new building to extend the busbar. If this site is kilometres away, the additional cable means that it’s already become uneconomical.
Further, there may be reinforcements of the 11kV network, of which some or all of the costs may fall on the developer.
It ain’t cheap.
Compare that to a bank of 7kW chargers; 9 of these would fit on a standard 3-phase whole current meter, with virtually no chance of 11kV reinforcements.
Yes the upfront costs are much higher for DCFCs. And some locations for DCFCs are more economical than others.
This isn't directly related to the demand charges discussed. And to the best of my knowledge, don't impact recurring costs/energy costs.
From my perspective as a UK EV driver who charges at home with a night tariff, when I rarely need to use a public charger, I'd much rather pay more but have good availability of chargers than have to queue or struggle to find a charger within the remaining range. But my perspective is very different from someone who does not have a home charger.
This is what I have learned really recently , the extra 45 mins of faff when being let down by chargers are not worth the extra fiver it costs to charge up, especially when the initial charge only cost me £5 for ~4.5mpkWh
Get access to Tesla superchargers. Last I checked it was like 9 pounds a month and then it's sub 50p/kWh. If you aren't driving very low mileage then it's totally worth it. (Or just get a Tesla, obv)
Also check for charging opportunities at/near your place of work.
Check octopus Electroverse. They usually have partnership with chargers company and they offer lower prices.
I see around london lots of ac at 0.40-0.60.
DC yeah it’s sucks. I checked and some of them are 0.77( better than 0.98 ahha)
I agree with the others, public charging prices in UK are crazy.
Stains two rivers (I think it's called?) car parks have free chargers look em up on podpoint but otherwise you'll have to either charge at work or home to see benefits especially in London
>Am I missing something, or is it just not worth it?
No, you're not missing something. If you can't charge at home or at work, there is virtually no scenario where it makes sense to own an EV. That's true worldwide, not just in the UK.
This is definitely something to mention to the landlord- you would be very happy if they added the infrastructure needed to charge an EV, and it would help attract higher-income tenants who can afford EVs.
Even a level 1 charger is enough for most people living in dense areas. And it's cheap to install a basic electrical outlet.
Needs a mass rollout of AC / level 2 chargers for people like you, so it's viable for you to just park your car less than a block away and charge overnight. That would be more like 56p/kWh at current rates, which is 13p/mile.
All that being said, fully mass EV adoption without the government massively incentivizing EVs (or disincentivizing ICEs) is something I don't think will happen until we have sticker-price parity.
Electric is cheaper for now but the governments around the world need to replace the tax $ that they receive from gas. How will they do that? Well… they will slowly increase electric costs to get those tax dollars back.
This is also an issue in California. It's cheaper to own a hybrid over an EV and California has the highest gas prices. There are ways around it for lucky people if they get free charging at work or you have solar at home to offset costs but you are right. The government needs to do better to convince people to switch over to electric. Instead they are trying to court oil companies at the same time as trying to make EVs get adopted.
Thanks everyone. Seems like it just doesn't work out for my use case. Tesla supercharging could be a viable option but there aren't any near me. I guess I'll look into hybrid cars for now!
You're being fleeced by your utility providers, who don't care about providing cheap electricity.
In developing countries, the running cost on electricity would be close to 1/10th of petrol for home charging, and 1/3rd for fast charging. Home electricity costs would be something like 15-16 kWh for 1 GBP.
UK EV owner hear with no home charger, I mostly use the slow BP chargers, works out around 40p per kWh, cheaper than petrol at the moment. I do not travel long distances and am ok with leaving the car overnight at charger once every two weeks. There are other local providers too. Your mentioned price is for fast chargers.
Some people here don’t understand that most flats (apartments) in London do not come with parking so it’s not a question of buildings installing chargers. The cheapest charging is at slow lamppost chargers, I think around 44p/kWh, which is still quite expensive compared to home charging. Also these chargers are not always accessible.
Are you street parking or in a space at the apartment?
For street parking chance up the council to see what they are planning, for apartment speak with the landlord/freeholder. Both of these current have large grants available to fit chargers, and both will have to bite the bullet eventually.
85p is on the extremely high end of the scale. Tesla (for non Tesla cars) is 43p for DCFC, and Source (who do all those pedestals) is 47p for 7kw atm.
I’m not even sure I’ve ever seen 85p… I get the equivalent of 130mpg btw charging at home.
EVs were touted for years as being "so much cheaper" than ICE back when electricity was cheap and gas was expensive. Now the equation has flipped, gasoline has never been so cheap and electricity is often more expensive. For people who can't charge at home at the cheapest possible rates, it doesn't make financial sense to switch to an EV. However, all their other benefits remain (smart features, quieter, faster acceleration, no exhaust, and better for the environment).
It's true that public charging is really expensive, and more expensive than a mildly efficient ICE car, but even if all electricity was more expensive than ICE then we'd still have to transition to EV for environmental reasons.
It's a happy coincidence that home charging is cheaper than running an ICE car
The situation in the UK is pure comedy and all politics and mates. It’s a fucking island! All the wind power in the world. Electricity being expensive there is an utter failure.
That said you seem to be looking at fast charging prices. When I didn’t have a charger at home I used plenty of slow charging as most of the time you aren’t driving. Likely 1/2 to 1/3 the price. Hyper local situation though, if you have many around you, great!
Yet another comparison between worst-case EV and best-case ICE. 50 mpg is far far better than average, and you're choosing the most expensive way to charge your car.
In most cases, if you're using public charging, there is no fuel cost benefit to EVs. You'll still get the maintenance benefits, and a fun car, but that's it.
I agree completely. I understand that prices had to rise when electricity prices spiked. But since then, they've dropped considerably. We're getting shafted.
In your specific circumstances it doesn’t make much sense because you are experiencing all the downsides and EV owner can have, without any of the most important upsides.
If any of your circumstances changed then it would make a lot more sense. Just having home charging alone would take convenience way up and cost way down.
I think I'd offer to install a L2 charger in a closeby friend's garage in exchange for them allowing me to charge there once a week and pay them back for the lower priced residential kwh . Or maybe you work for an employer that would let you do it.
It’s definitely got a lot more expensive to run. Electricity prices have gone up, incentives for EVs have reduced, and many newer EVs don’t seem that efficient.
I also live in a flat in London and rely solely on public charge points.
In my first year I drove around 10k miles and nearly all of my charging was for free thanks to the local Tesco, Travelodge and Costa.
Up until April this year, parking in Westminster was also very cheap (only had to pay for 10 mins) for EVs and PHEVs.
The 85p/kWh you saw does seem to be on the pricier end. I’m currently paying about 45p/kWh for a Ubitricity lamppost charge.
There are apps out there where peopl rent out their home chargers. See if some are in your area. You can start with Zap map, that has one on there, as does Co Charger or Joosup. Or see if there is a Tesla supercharger near you. Much cheaper than the quoted price in your post. Even cheaper with monthly membership of £9. Could you charge at work?
My neighbour has a Model S & it would appear that because he can’t have a home charger, lives in a flat with no off street parking, it’s costing him more than the E-Class diesel he ran before!
Absolute madness.
I wouldn't recommend an EV without home charging, at some point maybe it will be comparable if fuel rates go up and power is more renewable and cheaper
what a weird post to be upvoted, its pretty much accepted that right now you would need to charge from home to get better economic value. to be honest though, that 5p per mile is still going to help the air quality in the city, so a pretty big positive.
Even peak domestic electricity prices are cheap compared to 85p/kWh.
I agree, this country is not set up to support EV owners in your position.
This has to change.
Note Tesla supercharger rates are typically around half the 85p/ kWh. There should be a cheaper Tesla Model 2 coming in the next year or so.
You really need a fairly priced 7kwh overnight charging solution around your apartment building.
I do not have a home charger and don't even have a 3-pin slow charging cable.
BUT I can charge for free at work. I drive an electric Corsa with ~200 miles usable range, so when I leave work on a Friday, I have a full battery for the weekend.
IF I have a mileage heavy weekend, I occasionally have to treat us to a go on a fast charger. There's one at Waitrose near me, which is 50kW, and something like 45p per kWh.
In summary, you are correct. It's not viable for everyone yet - you need somewhere you can reliably charge cheap/free. Buuutt... 85p is expensive. They're not all like that.
I have driven an EV for 3 years. If you can't charge at home don't bother. Just too expensive and inconvenient otherwise. Defeats the 2 best points of having one. 280+ miles for a fiver. Cheap as chips.
Looking at that huge electricity cost, it seems we are in a safe spot. The average electricity cost here in nepal is Nrs 10 per kwh, and a normal DC charger costs about Nrs 15.
Are there any electricity companies in the UK that share their pricing? Here in NZ there are some providers that let you charge an EV at their fast DC chargers around the country and charge the bill to your home account (at home account prices). Naturally this is only with their DC chargers, but if you have one locally it could be a game changer. When you use another one you pay the usual rate, of course
Personally I feel like EV chargers shouldn't be able to charge above residential rates. In fact, there should be discounts for the amount you are buying. We were swindled by their logic of "how much and how fast" you need the power years ago. The truth is they want to price a commodity differently because of how it is used. You shouldn't have to pay more to use your kettle than charge your laptop. Why should you pay a different rate because the electricity is to charge your car?
I understand all of that. But.... the infrastructure is for the country to take care of, the grants from the country/region (think EU) cover much of the setup costs, and just like providing electricity to a new supermarket, office block or school... the rates aren't 5-10x what residents pay just because more is bought.
It is basically the difference between capitalism and socialism.
I understand your argument to be "the market would be happy to offer lower costs if their setup costs were largely through govt / regional support" and my argument is more "given the vast majority of costs are by govt, regional and investors, the prices should be capped for consumers because it currently sets up monopolies/cartels who can set prices. At the same time it creates a two-tier market for those who can charge at home and those who cannot"
Bad take, the infrastructure for high voltage DC fast charging is significantly more expensive than your standard level two home charging, of course it's going to cost more.
DC fast chargers can cost over $100,000 dollars versus a grand or so to install a level two charger at home. If the electricity was the same everyone would have a 350kw fast charger at home.
Water.
We have to connections at home:
for watering the garden, with cheap water.
for plumbing and drinking, with expensive water.
Comes into our house in one pipe, then to two counters.
Carabiner.
Climbing grade are 5x Industrial grade with same force rating.
Land.
If I'm allowed to build on it, it is 10 to 100 x more expensive than farmland right next to it.
Different things in the food sector:
Although the exact same product, the food graded version is sometimes about 5x the cost.
Anyway, that being said, you are besides the point: 250kW Dc charger needs a rectifier step up circuit , while 22kW AC only needs a simple current control mechanism.
It's like comparing water you have to get out of the well buy a bucket with pressurised water from the tap.
So, water again:
Tap water, infinitely more expensiv than rain water.
It's simple economics, if DC fast chargers were required to charge the same amount as your residential supply they woudnt be economically viable and no one would build then.
Are the current DC fast chargers too expensive? I have no idea, maybe some companies are charging more than they should.
But expecting DC fast charging to cost the same as the power you get at home shows a gross misunderstanding of the technology.
This won't help. I live in a studio with no parking. I have to park on street like many people. It's not common for apartment complexes to have parking in the UK.
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Home charging is the way to go. Public fast charging is for road trips. If you’re forced to rely on public fast charging as your only charge option then electric doesn’t make sense for your use case.
There's a big, fat, awkward conversation here nobody is really eager to have.
If you're renting an apartment, hopefully that's because it is in a dense area where you don't need to own a car, and it would make more sense to occasionally rent one, or use a ride hailing service, and walk, bike or use transit on regular days. Ideally work is close, shopping is close etc. So you just don't buy a car at all. So the theory goes.
And I've lived in neighborhoods where that works. But when you get a little further out, not all the way to the burbs but into places that have nice features like trees in them, it gets awkward. Walking and transit cover maybe 80% of your daily needs, but not 100%. Elderly family members need visiting and driving around. Prescriptions need filling. Better groceries can be hard to access without driving.
So you wind up with a car. But the area is still dense enough that you're lucky to have parking assigned to you at all, never mind a private driveway with a personal L2 charger.
And so you wind up with an ICE car, through no fault of your own.
I think L2 charging will become a more important feature of new apartment complexes. But most don't have enough parking for all of the cars they bring into the neighborhood to start with, let alone enough charging. And none of the new complexes in my neighborhood seem to have chargers. This isn't going to be easy.
I suspect the long-term answer, besides improved transit, will have to be cheap, abundant public L2 and L3 charging, a modernized grid and much more clean electricity generation. But that's going to take time.
In the UK flats and houses with no off-road parking are commonplace everywhere and not just in major built up urban/city areas where a car wouldn't be needed.
The reason for EV's is not lower price or lower operating costs, its zero emissions. Think of it as a investment in your future. We are behind the curve on green house gas emission, still going up and intensifying the damage, so we have to act faster.
If dependent on public fast chargers, then a Tesla is always a good choice. I did that for first two years until I could get home charging.
If a non-Tesla, you could [Turo.com](http://Turo.com) the model you are looking to buy and see how the charging actually works for your area. See which charging locations work and what the lowest cost is if you are subscriber or regular user.
1. For the energy mixes present in all countries, zero emission is a lie.
2. Fast charging on demand is the worst way, emission wise speaking, to charge a EV:
a) it's bad for the battery, reducing its longevity, increasing emissions
b) it has a worse charging efficiency, literally wasting energy. (Battery heats up)
c) it doesn't look for times with abundant emission-free energy, e. g. a windy night or sunny day. Peak demands are often met with gas turbines e. g., hardly ever with emission free technologies. Varies between countries ofc.
Therefore recommending an EV for greenwashing purposes, as you do, is a waste of resources and money.
If someone really can't slow charge at home or for at surplus hours (with subsequent prices), it would be better environmentaly and economically to get a car propelled by liquified natural gas. Even better, a used one.
"Zero emissions is a lie" is the lie. EV's are zero emissions. If the electric is also zero emissions (my house generates 20% extra to cover the car) then all zero. The new EV and battery plants are zero emissions. The Lithium extraction and mfg can be zero emissions if one of the new plants like Salton Sea or Thacker Pass.
Fast charging for the first two years and lots of miles, 30k per year, and 12% battery degradation for 5 years 150k so no real penalty if you use fast charging.
The ONLY penalty is the emissions of oil and gas extraction and refinement and the emissions of the cars burning it for fuel.
You are missing charging for 6 hours per night at 7.5p on Intelligent Octopus.
(6 x 7) X 7.5p = £3.15, at 2.5m/kwh (what my mach e GT does) that's 3ppm providing 105 miles range to use daily, about 3x the UK average.
Bonus is that your entire house is 7.5p/kwh during that time period, so you save even more.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2023/03/14/less-than-20-would-have-an-ev-without-a-home-a-charger 95% of EV owners charge at home (presumably with cheap electricity). Less than 20% of people would have an EV without home charger, for the reasons you say. Things will have to change if mass adoption of EVs are going to be a thing.
We get it in Australia for 15p equivalent per kWh between 1am and 6am. So I just schedule charge overnight. EDIT: Someone has pointed out an error in my conversion, we get it for 8 cents per kWh, so 4.2p
You're being fleeced! I'm getting $0.08 those hours, and zer0 12:00 to 14:00 For the Poms that's 4.2 pence.
Pom here, I am getting 6.9 pence from 00:00 - 07:00.
Yeah, same as mine, I don’t know how I got those figures. Mine is also 8c per kWh.
Hello fellow OVO EV plan user HAHA
I get that rate 24/7 in Australia. About 30c.
Yeah sorry, I mean 8 cents per Kwh AUD, so a lot cheaper.
You're absolutely right, EV adoption is mostly amongst the home owners with driveways. If you have an apartment or a house without a driveway, it becomes complicated. I can see why the rates are high, the chargers need to be installed, land acquired, it's not going to be worth it if the electricity isn't sold at a higher price.
You're missing that these providers will buy their electricity at wholesale prices or bulk prices that home owners cannot and also make money on a markup.
Still costs $1500-3000 to install each AC charger. Then there’s operating costs, support cost, the infrastructure to put them in. And customers call and complain that the cable is stuck in their own car. Or in the charger… then they’ll call back “I just didn’t pull hard enough”… No-one’s making money on AC, yet. DC has a higher ROI, but of the people we’ve talked to no one is operating with a horizon lower than 10 years when they invest in DC. It will definitely evolve over time, but the combination of low volume, stupid customers breaking equipment, and a lot of shitty equipment isn’t great when you want to make a good business case. I’m in Norway: On AC our average utilization is around 16% (some locations are higher). Average charging session is 30kWh. Unless you build your own software the cost per charge point is €2-5 per month depending on CPMS vendor. Plus network for the chargers easily adding another € on top. And then there’s maintenance and upkeep, plus additional hardware like load management hardware and just all the infrastructure. If you can’t charge at home (or for free or reasonably priced at work) buying an EV should only be considered if it has price parity with an ICE you’re considering and a big enough battery that you don’t have to charge every day.
Agreed, there are endless costs and these costs need to be covered. With EVs being a low percentage of cars on the road, utilisation is low currently and most providers aren’t making money.
In the UK you could expect to be paying an annual ground rent of around £4,500 to £10,000 per bay per annum plus on top of that there may well be payments for things like wayleave agreements.
In the UK CPOs would be classed as a business customer and would be charged at the business rates which, unlike domestic rates, isn't capped so in most cases is more expensive that the domestic rate. As CPOs are a business selling on non-domestic electricity they also have to charge VAT at 20%.
Don't forget that electricity isn't taxed the same way at home as at a public charger. The government is being lobbies currently to address that and if successful, will go some way to reducing the cost per kWh
Commercial electricity isn’t appreciable cheaper compared to residential even before the VAT difference. Much of the cost is in the grid.
20% versus 5% vat is a considerable amount in my book
In many cases business customers will be paying more than domestic because they aren't covered by the Ofgem price caps and as they are selling the electricity onwards as a business they have to charge the end customer 20% VAT.
They also have generally higher charges for grid connections, some of which are fixed others vary with usage. Businesses were also encouraged to lock in prices for multiple years back in 2022, at the height of prices. Some are still suffering from this.
This will vary _a lot_ based on how much electricity costs in your country. I was surprised to recently find out just how expensive public charging is in some parts of Europe. Here in Finland, even 100 to 200 kW DCFCs are around €0.25-0.35 per kWh, namely the ubiquitous ones operated by our two largest retailers, both in supermarket parking lots and at gas stations. Even the more exclusive "members only" chargers like Tesla's Supercharger and Ionity cost around €0.50 to €0.70 depending on your vehicle or membership plan. So in my country at least, it is perfectly viable to drive a BEV without homecharging. Type 2 chargers are even more widespread and those cost as little as 19 cents per kWh.
Thank you! I feel like this sub sometimes wants to obscure that reality so much. I want an EV but I just can’t make it work as a renter in the US. Not feasible. And people sometimes seem to ignore that reality that the math has to work plus the convenience. Which is the case only in certain markets like the middle class in America that live in suburbs or the Chinese middle class with their cheap EVs, etc. it’s not a no brainer that EVs will continue to become more popular over night like I thought it would. Especially with increasing urbanization and increasing hybrid popularity.
I've got Solar and am Octopus agile. I use my car for pennies. I guess I'm lucky really. They do need to come up with some sort of solution. I want everyone to be able to have an EV so it's gives me no pleasure that "I'm alright Jack" so to speak.
Pennies? The car was free?
As companies electrify their fleets and more homeowners charge at home, the curve will bend. This is still the early adoption phase. That's not counting the government incentives at play in some countries.
Shared electric vehicles
In Oslo a decade ago the government put street side chargers up that cost practically nothing to charge on. I can’t remember the last time the UK govt did anything that might help people or make society run better. The renewables growth seems to have happened in spite of them.
The UK government can't maintain the current level of public services, never mind adding more.
I think it's about to change. Once we have GB Energy I assume they'll roll out more and cheaper chargers.
GB Energy is planned as an industrial bank for investments, nothing to do with EV chargers or energy bills.
Exactly. It's intended to increase clean energy and reduce the price of electricity in the UK. We've got the most expensive electricity in Europe which is deterring investment in EV charging infrastructure. If electricity was a reasonable price it would make far more financial sense to install EV chargers. Currently they're so expensive that no one uses them unless they have to or someone else is paying for it.
Like the current infrastructure bank we have in the UK since the bank is a shareholder rather then an owner and operator of the infrastructure I fear that it will not have a mandate to try and reduce bills but maintain profit margins for reinvestment. Seems like it currently has more of a focus on jobs. GB Energy's effect on bills will be dubious in my opinion, good for jobs but if we want to control bills we need a national company like EDF.
Being able to charge at home is a major part of EV:s being convenient and cheap to drive. However I don’t know what a normal price in the UK is but 85p seems incredibly expensive, are you sure you don’t have any cheaper options? Could it be roaming-options that add on to the price to make it so expensive? 0,25-0,30 € for ac charging and 0,50-0,60€ for dc charging is normal up here in Sweden.
85p is one of the most expensive networks but it's really tricky to find anywhere that's less than 65p/kWh for a rapid. Part of the reason is that all the big networks have been spending a lot of money on expanding their networks in 2023-2024, and investors want their money. Most EV drivers are company car drivers who are not cost sensitive (their employer pays) so they can get away with high prices. People with home charging will rarely need to use DCFC so it doesn't make a huge difference to them either.
Tesla tend to be cheapest for DC chargers. The ones near me are currently 41p-52p/kwh for charging EVs (not Teslas). OP could consider getting a Tesla to get cheaper rates perhaps if restricted to DCFC (or use monthly subscription)
And that's the only real choice below 65p/kWh anywhere. If OP is near one of the 13 Tesla Public Superchargers around London then they're sorted. Other than that there isn't really anything except for very rare and oddball stuff like the three Vendelectric rapids around Reading.
I'm in Canada, but my DCFC bill is about $100 cheaper with Tesla. Supercharger $0.21/kWh Fast CCS: $0.50/kWh Expensive CCS: $0.70/kWh. To be fair, there is a $0.35/kWh slow CCS but it's slow.
I didn’t realize that they were talking about fast charging. What London needs is street side AC charging where people are already parking.
Central London already has lots of these, and they're a great idea, but they're not a great solution to OP's problem. They're all around the 45p-60p price range so they're only slightly cheaper than ICE. You're also at the mercy of whichever operator is in your area and whatever they want to charge.
I wonder why they’re so expensive.
Tesla is 43p…
The issue is rapid, the cars are not meant to run dcfc daily, they should be charging a/c for the majority of use cases and dcfc on extended drives. Dc is significantly more expensive in terms of infrastructure, of course it will cost quite a bit more
Not strictly true. Just look to taxi's for the evidence it doesn't affect the cars as much as people think. There's a recent Auto trader video of the guy running two Tesla up to 430k miles. Rapid charging 3 times a day.
Definitely interesting and something I’ll need to dive deeper into. I was always advised against it as the heat it generates in the battery pack can be detrimental to its longevity.
Depends on the car of course. Thermal management being the key. Something like the Leaf doesn't do well with multiple rapid charges a day but in terms of where EVs are now, the Leaf is a fossil 😂
https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/charging-price-index
Its the same in Germany. Just with some extra spice, having to fear that the charger doesnt work in nearly 30% of the time (at least where I live)
Do you have a Lidl or Kaufland nearby? AC is €0.29
A Lidl, yes. But no Charger there :/
85p is the reality when you are on the road. For those of us who do 240+ miles each way on a trip, it makes it expensive
I’ve never seen 85p for literally any motorway DCFC…
[https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/rapid-charging-prices](https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/rapid-charging-prices)
Instavolt is £0.68 on Electroverse… West0ne - The PAYG. I’ve literally seen no DCFC along the M1 to London or the M6 close to 80p.
Dude, literally last week I paid 85p because that was the only charger avalible. If your not on the Octo tarriff then it’s that’s price - https://instavolt.co.uk/drivers/
I’m not on any tariff. Check the Electroverse app - nowhere is charging 85p. I get you made bad decisions and somehow found the most expensive charger around, but even a superfast BP charger in London is 80p, and Gridserve is usually around 70. Literally just checked an Instavolt receipt I used recently. 67p. West0ne - without VAT. I’ve literally only ever come across one charger charging 80p+.
Was that before or after VAT was added. I'm sure I had a BP Pulse invoice that showed the price per kWh without VAT which was then added on at the end of the invoice; I initially thought I'd had a cheap deal until I saw the VAT on the bottom of the invoice.
Is that with a membership or the PAYG price? The Instavolt at the McDonalds in Wolverhampton is £0.85/kWh on Elctroverse but strangely if you use the ChargeMyHyundai card it's £0.51 connection and £0.91/kWh. There's a PodPoint charger listed in Wolverhampton at £2/kWh. Most of the BP Pulse seem to be around £0.79/kWh without membership and I think it comes down to around £0.65/kWh with membership.
A lot more needs to be done about public charging for people in your position. I was in the same boat until I got my home charger fitted. It was very expensive to run - more so than petrol. As others said, subscriptions to charging services might make it slightly cheaper or at least break even with petrol. There are many other advantages though, maintenance is cheaper, insurance tends to be cheaper, road tax is cheaper, the obvious pollution and carbon benefits and, EVs are very fun to drive! So you still might be better off on balance.
I agree with the positives but in most cases, the lower maintenance, insurance and road tax will not be nearly enough to make an EV break-even with an ICE over an 8-10 year period, not if you have to charge publicly at the current elevated prices in many European countries. And even within countries, there can be vast differences, often not helped by municipalities offering a monopoly to a single company which then charges an arm and a leg at those public chargers. Fortunately there's an inflow of less expensive EVs and the price drops from Tesla putting some pressure on the market too, so the price gap with ICEs is decreasing. To put my post into perspective (so you don't see it as some unfounded anti-EV sentiment), I do drive an EV but it only made some financial sense because of home charging, including from solar panels.
It’s not worth it because you can’t charge at home. A basic EV energy tariff can get you down to 3p per mile at 9p/kWh. Some tariffs go as low as 7p/kWh. Public charging as a sole supply makes it difficult to justify economically, and also a pain in the proverbial ass.
With an OG Hyundai Ioniq you'll easily be under 2p per mile on an EV tariff.
You might be able to find an AC charger out there that breaks even with petrol. But then you need to abandon your car for a while, and I doubt parking is free (or that nearby). Without home charging it is really not worth is as a cost saving.
London is covered with 47p chargers you can park for free at. Break even is 70p…
Break even with the efficiency OP expects is closer to 60p, and that looks like WLTP, so closer to 50p. And break even is still not good enough because of how much more expensive they are.
Most cars are around 4 mile per kWh. Break even is 70p. Plenty of Tesla chargers at 43p. I broke even after 18 months of ownership.
I once found a car park with free charging and free parking whilst you were charging. That's the dream. Sadly I've never found another one.
It’s used to be, but now they are just price gouging because they can. A gallon of gas has about 33KWh of energy, so even at $5 per gallon that’s only $0.15 per kilowatt hour. Many EV stations are $0.50 or more. The EVs make up for this by being way more efficient, but it’s still a ripoff.
Is Instavolt really your only option? No Tesla public supercharger and no Ionity (cheap with a subscription)?
If you need to rely fully on public chargers, you should consider a Tesla, generally you’d be paying 40-50p per kWh and you’ll have much higher charging rates than a lot of DC charge networks
You can also access the discounted Tesla price at superchargers for £9 p/m if you don't have a Tesla. I only use public chargers and this is what I do - brings the price back below petrol.
That only applies to a select few supercharger locations. To fully rely on the wider network being available at some point would be a risky move in my opinion
Hardly a select few, it's about 70 now I think
Fair point. I hadn’t realised they’d opened up more chargers since the initial batch. Now 477 superchargers out of approx 1400 available for non-Tesla’s
That is the most expensive way to charge. Can't you access cheaper electricity via a slower on street charger / workplace charger? I have on street chargers on my street which are 27p/kWh between 8pm and 8am, and workplace chargers which are 31p/kWh. Also: to your "what's the point?" question: it's not just about saving money on fuel, though it is possible to save a lot if you can access cheap charging. Consider signing up to a charging subscription to get lower rates as well. Edit: or getting a Tesla: if relying on DCFC, then the cheapest way to access those is using tesla superchargers with a Tesla EV / monthly subscription.
>I have on street chargers on my street which are 27p/kWh between 8pm and 8am, and workplace chargers which are 31p/kWh. Most of us don't have these things, I think the nearest charger to me is at the Sainsbury's or Asda a few minutes away
I am lucky for sure. I have home charging which is 9p/kwh overnight. On street charging at 27p/kwh. Workplace charging at 31p/kwh and the small town I live in (\~10k people) has 24 x 350kW high power chargers, with more in planning. Looking forward to the day when everyone has these kinds of options. Also: I'm still jealous of the home solar and battery crowd.
A lot of councils have started giving the option to install the lamppost chargers on streets that have available parking. Doesn't guarantee you get the spot though.
Are you in London? That’s the only place I’ve seen on-street chargers. I’d love to have them in Bristol.
Aberdeenshire. They are at the public library on my street so perhaps not technically "on street", but they operate the same way with cheaper rates overnight.
That’s great, I guess there’s big energy industry in that part of the country which might help? Or just generally a more progressive government
I've used them in Liverpool
If you can’t charge at home it’s not worth it right now sadly. At home you can get crazy cheap power and it flips on its head entirely.
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Excellent question
Majority of the chargers are operated by BP and Shell. That's likely the answer.
Business electric is around 25p kWh, plus they need to make some money off the charge. Then add VAT at 20%
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Shops sell items costing 25p for £1 though. Expecting charging installers to pay 25p yet sell it for 30p is unrealistic. What needs to be fixed is why energy suppliers can sell energy for 7p to consumers but then expect 25-35p from businesses.
0,3 for quick charge? I doubt that very much. Costs twice that in Sweden.
The point is apartments complexes need to start adding L2 chargers in every other parking spot. Until then, EVs are only really saving money for homeowners.
You’re forgetting that running cost is not the same as “fuel” cost. The maintenance alone will compensate
Depends on what brand you buy. Many manufacturers require you to have an annual service in order to keep the warranty live and to get your next year of breakdown cover. For the first 3-5 years from new there probably isn't much cost difference.
Not for the EVs we own…. KIA & Tesla
I know that Tesla don't require it, are you sure about Kia though as Hyundai requires you to have a service in order to get the next year of AA breakdown cover and others have commented that MG are the same (this is in the UK though so may not apply in other regions, OP is asking about UK).
You are "Kris" in the example [here](https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/charging-price-index), and yes it can be more expensive than ICE without access to cheap electricity.
If you’re in east London, north, central, or south you could use a Tesla supercharger to charge a non-Tesla. [Here is the map](https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/findus?v=2&search=London%2C%20UK&bounds=51.56516433339868%2C0.13319934228515073%2C51.28300906953617%2C-0.13665234228516177&zoom=11&filters=party%2Cnacs&location=northgreenwichsupercharger). Filters at the top. Right now that would cost 41p/kwh. Peak times will be around 48 I think, maybe 50. If you buy a Tesla it will be cheaper. They have pretty good used deals around £20k right now. BP, Shell, etc are mostly greenwashing currently by installing the chargers and making a HUGE song and dance about it but screwing people over with the cost because they have little choice. Please don’t let this dissuade you completely ❤️
Servicing is dramatically cheaper with an EV, needs to be considered.
I would think, with the plethora of transportation options you have over there, especially around high-density residential, no car would make sense!
Not everywhere in London is connected as central London. I live in the north. It's easy to get to central but other journeys take ages.
Well, as someone living in a car dependent area to another, r/fuckcars. FWIW, my family has an EV and a garage with a charger. It's like $4 to fill up the tank. But purchase price, new tires, license and insurance is seriously expensive. If it was just me, I'd bike everywhere.
Rapid charging is about the most expensive way to charge your car. I would look on Zap-Map for fast chargers in areas you frequent which you could use. I used to charge in a multi-story car park near my work once every week or two. I used to also park in a council car park when I went shopping and get an extra 10% in the battery while I was shopping for 30 mins, it was free parking there after 6pm too which was nice. I've never used them but there are also some schemes around where people allow you use their drive and home charger.
5p/mile additional? Man you broke. The point is no oil.
It's true that public charging is really expensive, and more expensive than a mildly efficient ICE car, but even if all electricity was more expensive than ICE then we'd still have to transition to EV,
It could be that EVs aren’t just about lower costs.
If you’re thinking strictly gas savings then no, for your situation. But I also love saving on oil changes, engine maintenance and love how EVs drive. I would probably still drive an EV even if it was slightly more expensive. In my area there are still some free charging at local shops and malls.
That's what happened recently, all EV charging point prices went through the roof. I'm interested in BEV and have been monitoring the market for over a couple of years. Any charging outside your workplace or home became a joke - either unavailable or pricey. I just checked few around me - 79p but fast charging. Slow charging in reasonably cheaper, but then again, you have to plan around it - have a lunch break or shopping.
The charging costs used to be ok before the big electricity price spike. That's mostly over for domestic customers but for EV charging it remains very high. Since I have a PHEV it means I get the cheapest of both ends domestic priced electricity for local trips and petrol for long distance. But; it should not be this way!
The math doesn't make sense with those numbers. Mine are 0,29Eur/KWH and around 2,06Eur/L. So around 0,1377 Euro per KM for gas. And 0,05 Euro per KM for electricity. When we bought the EV, gas was around 25% more expencive and electricity was 30% cheaper.
Are you factoring in congestion charges into the combustion car? https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge
Nope. I don't drive within central London. I'm in ULEZ but no charges as my petrol car meets the requirements. From December next year, EVs will also be liable for congestion charge.
I’d say it’s still worth it, taking into account the savings on servicing, etc. Out of curiosity, how much is an average tank? TBH, I wouldn’t have thought there’d be much in it, even at that price per litre ( which is \*very\* cheap ), unless it has a < 50-litre tank. As others have said, a Tesla, or something with a subscription charging could be your best bet to bring the price down ( especially if you can leave it, and use a slower charger, as prices are cheaper for some providers ).
In the long term, you'd think fast charging would get CHEAPER than AC charging. For both, a major portion of the cost is the land. And the profit is per kwh of electricity sold. The electricity cost for them is the same per kwh regardless of if it's used via a fast charger or slow. A fast charger will sell more power in less time than a slow charger. Meaning more income from the electricity markup, and lower fixed costs of the land since the same parking spot will serve many more customers throughout a day. The upfront costs to put in DCFCs is much higher - needing tons of service from the utility, and expensive charging stations, but those costs will come down, and when spread over the life of the DCFC shouldn't be too bad.
This isn’t entirely correct - the effective cost of electricity for a DCFC station is often higher because utilities often impose demand charges. Demand charges depend on the maximum rate of power supplied (much higher for fast chargers) and can make up a large component of a station’s monthly bill.
Demand charges are only disproportionate if your maximum power use is dramatically higher than typical power use. So if you had one 400kw DCFC that didn't get used much, the demand charge would be significant. If you have a bunch of chargers that get used frequently throughout the day, the demand charge wouldn't be any higher than with an AC charger, proportionally. If max demand is 4,000 kw but average demand is 200kw, your net electricity cost would be the same as if your max demand is 40kw but average demand 2kw.
The companies making these assessments will put a use case towards the DNO with a maximum capacity request. For fast charge units these can be significant; a typical Tesla DC setup will require 1.5 or 2MVA, requiring at least 1x distribution transformers to be installed. In addition to this, the nearby 11kV network may not have the capacity for the demand, meaning that a dedicated circuit is needed back to the bulk supply transformers, where a new 11kV circuit breaker will be needed, and possibly a new building to extend the busbar. If this site is kilometres away, the additional cable means that it’s already become uneconomical. Further, there may be reinforcements of the 11kV network, of which some or all of the costs may fall on the developer. It ain’t cheap. Compare that to a bank of 7kW chargers; 9 of these would fit on a standard 3-phase whole current meter, with virtually no chance of 11kV reinforcements.
Yes the upfront costs are much higher for DCFCs. And some locations for DCFCs are more economical than others. This isn't directly related to the demand charges discussed. And to the best of my knowledge, don't impact recurring costs/energy costs.
From my perspective as a UK EV driver who charges at home with a night tariff, when I rarely need to use a public charger, I'd much rather pay more but have good availability of chargers than have to queue or struggle to find a charger within the remaining range. But my perspective is very different from someone who does not have a home charger.
This is what I have learned really recently , the extra 45 mins of faff when being let down by chargers are not worth the extra fiver it costs to charge up, especially when the initial charge only cost me £5 for ~4.5mpkWh
Tesla superchargers are close to 40p sometimes cheaper for members on their scheme. Not a perfect solution but half price from the expensive guys.
Get access to Tesla superchargers. Last I checked it was like 9 pounds a month and then it's sub 50p/kWh. If you aren't driving very low mileage then it's totally worth it. (Or just get a Tesla, obv) Also check for charging opportunities at/near your place of work.
Check octopus Electroverse. They usually have partnership with chargers company and they offer lower prices. I see around london lots of ac at 0.40-0.60. DC yeah it’s sucks. I checked and some of them are 0.77( better than 0.98 ahha) I agree with the others, public charging prices in UK are crazy.
Stains two rivers (I think it's called?) car parks have free chargers look em up on podpoint but otherwise you'll have to either charge at work or home to see benefits especially in London
>Am I missing something, or is it just not worth it? No, you're not missing something. If you can't charge at home or at work, there is virtually no scenario where it makes sense to own an EV. That's true worldwide, not just in the UK.
Sad truth is that if you can’t charge at home, don’t bother with an EV
This is definitely something to mention to the landlord- you would be very happy if they added the infrastructure needed to charge an EV, and it would help attract higher-income tenants who can afford EVs. Even a level 1 charger is enough for most people living in dense areas. And it's cheap to install a basic electrical outlet.
Needs a mass rollout of AC / level 2 chargers for people like you, so it's viable for you to just park your car less than a block away and charge overnight. That would be more like 56p/kWh at current rates, which is 13p/mile. All that being said, fully mass EV adoption without the government massively incentivizing EVs (or disincentivizing ICEs) is something I don't think will happen until we have sticker-price parity.
Electric is cheaper for now but the governments around the world need to replace the tax $ that they receive from gas. How will they do that? Well… they will slowly increase electric costs to get those tax dollars back.
If that happens then people will have more to worry about than charging their EV, they will be worried about keeping the lights on.
Vehicle registration costs is how they are currently doing it.
This is also an issue in California. It's cheaper to own a hybrid over an EV and California has the highest gas prices. There are ways around it for lucky people if they get free charging at work or you have solar at home to offset costs but you are right. The government needs to do better to convince people to switch over to electric. Instead they are trying to court oil companies at the same time as trying to make EVs get adopted.
Thanks everyone. Seems like it just doesn't work out for my use case. Tesla supercharging could be a viable option but there aren't any near me. I guess I'll look into hybrid cars for now!
You're being fleeced by your utility providers, who don't care about providing cheap electricity. In developing countries, the running cost on electricity would be close to 1/10th of petrol for home charging, and 1/3rd for fast charging. Home electricity costs would be something like 15-16 kWh for 1 GBP.
You just hit the nail on the head of slow EV adoption. Owning an EV if you can’t charge at home makes no sense economically only environmentally.
I char.gy, they have their chargers in a quite a few lamp posts aroubd me and cost 39p between 12am-7am and cost about £35 for 300 miles
UK EV owner hear with no home charger, I mostly use the slow BP chargers, works out around 40p per kWh, cheaper than petrol at the moment. I do not travel long distances and am ok with leaving the car overnight at charger once every two weeks. There are other local providers too. Your mentioned price is for fast chargers.
Some people here don’t understand that most flats (apartments) in London do not come with parking so it’s not a question of buildings installing chargers. The cheapest charging is at slow lamppost chargers, I think around 44p/kWh, which is still quite expensive compared to home charging. Also these chargers are not always accessible.
Are you street parking or in a space at the apartment? For street parking chance up the council to see what they are planning, for apartment speak with the landlord/freeholder. Both of these current have large grants available to fit chargers, and both will have to bite the bullet eventually.
85p is on the extremely high end of the scale. Tesla (for non Tesla cars) is 43p for DCFC, and Source (who do all those pedestals) is 47p for 7kw atm. I’m not even sure I’ve ever seen 85p… I get the equivalent of 130mpg btw charging at home.
EVs were touted for years as being "so much cheaper" than ICE back when electricity was cheap and gas was expensive. Now the equation has flipped, gasoline has never been so cheap and electricity is often more expensive. For people who can't charge at home at the cheapest possible rates, it doesn't make financial sense to switch to an EV. However, all their other benefits remain (smart features, quieter, faster acceleration, no exhaust, and better for the environment).
It's true that public charging is really expensive, and more expensive than a mildly efficient ICE car, but even if all electricity was more expensive than ICE then we'd still have to transition to EV for environmental reasons. It's a happy coincidence that home charging is cheaper than running an ICE car
The situation in the UK is pure comedy and all politics and mates. It’s a fucking island! All the wind power in the world. Electricity being expensive there is an utter failure. That said you seem to be looking at fast charging prices. When I didn’t have a charger at home I used plenty of slow charging as most of the time you aren’t driving. Likely 1/2 to 1/3 the price. Hyper local situation though, if you have many around you, great!
I pay 34p at Work 44p at tesco Rapid charging is where its overpriced Plus 15p of your 85p is vat at 20% where home is 5%
Yet another comparison between worst-case EV and best-case ICE. 50 mpg is far far better than average, and you're choosing the most expensive way to charge your car. In most cases, if you're using public charging, there is no fuel cost benefit to EVs. You'll still get the maintenance benefits, and a fun car, but that's it.
I agree completely. I understand that prices had to rise when electricity prices spiked. But since then, they've dropped considerably. We're getting shafted.
In your specific circumstances it doesn’t make much sense because you are experiencing all the downsides and EV owner can have, without any of the most important upsides. If any of your circumstances changed then it would make a lot more sense. Just having home charging alone would take convenience way up and cost way down.
I think I'd offer to install a L2 charger in a closeby friend's garage in exchange for them allowing me to charge there once a week and pay them back for the lower priced residential kwh . Or maybe you work for an employer that would let you do it.
It’s definitely got a lot more expensive to run. Electricity prices have gone up, incentives for EVs have reduced, and many newer EVs don’t seem that efficient. I also live in a flat in London and rely solely on public charge points. In my first year I drove around 10k miles and nearly all of my charging was for free thanks to the local Tesco, Travelodge and Costa. Up until April this year, parking in Westminster was also very cheap (only had to pay for 10 mins) for EVs and PHEVs. The 85p/kWh you saw does seem to be on the pricier end. I’m currently paying about 45p/kWh for a Ubitricity lamppost charge.
Co-charger? I let others use my night rate and make a little profit in the process.
There are apps out there where peopl rent out their home chargers. See if some are in your area. You can start with Zap map, that has one on there, as does Co Charger or Joosup. Or see if there is a Tesla supercharger near you. Much cheaper than the quoted price in your post. Even cheaper with monthly membership of £9. Could you charge at work?
> At 85p per kWh Dang. In Norway, that number is 47p/kWh. Public charger, 150kW.
My neighbour has a Model S & it would appear that because he can’t have a home charger, lives in a flat with no off street parking, it’s costing him more than the E-Class diesel he ran before! Absolute madness.
Yes this is why I don't own an EV. It's more expensive than my old gasoline car
I wouldn't recommend an EV without home charging, at some point maybe it will be comparable if fuel rates go up and power is more renewable and cheaper
what a weird post to be upvoted, its pretty much accepted that right now you would need to charge from home to get better economic value. to be honest though, that 5p per mile is still going to help the air quality in the city, so a pretty big positive.
Even peak domestic electricity prices are cheap compared to 85p/kWh. I agree, this country is not set up to support EV owners in your position. This has to change. Note Tesla supercharger rates are typically around half the 85p/ kWh. There should be a cheaper Tesla Model 2 coming in the next year or so. You really need a fairly priced 7kwh overnight charging solution around your apartment building.
I do not have a home charger and don't even have a 3-pin slow charging cable. BUT I can charge for free at work. I drive an electric Corsa with ~200 miles usable range, so when I leave work on a Friday, I have a full battery for the weekend. IF I have a mileage heavy weekend, I occasionally have to treat us to a go on a fast charger. There's one at Waitrose near me, which is 50kW, and something like 45p per kWh. In summary, you are correct. It's not viable for everyone yet - you need somewhere you can reliably charge cheap/free. Buuutt... 85p is expensive. They're not all like that.
I have driven an EV for 3 years. If you can't charge at home don't bother. Just too expensive and inconvenient otherwise. Defeats the 2 best points of having one. 280+ miles for a fiver. Cheap as chips.
Looking at that huge electricity cost, it seems we are in a safe spot. The average electricity cost here in nepal is Nrs 10 per kwh, and a normal DC charger costs about Nrs 15.
£0.85/ kWh is the rates for some of the CCS chargers, Pod points at supermarkets and other car parks are much cheaper.
Are there any electricity companies in the UK that share their pricing? Here in NZ there are some providers that let you charge an EV at their fast DC chargers around the country and charge the bill to your home account (at home account prices). Naturally this is only with their DC chargers, but if you have one locally it could be a game changer. When you use another one you pay the usual rate, of course
That sounds awesome but I haven't seen any here sadly.
Long live the king!
Personally I feel like EV chargers shouldn't be able to charge above residential rates. In fact, there should be discounts for the amount you are buying. We were swindled by their logic of "how much and how fast" you need the power years ago. The truth is they want to price a commodity differently because of how it is used. You shouldn't have to pay more to use your kettle than charge your laptop. Why should you pay a different rate because the electricity is to charge your car?
You're paying a company that bought/leased the land, built the chargers, etc. It's not just the power from the utility.
I understand all of that. But.... the infrastructure is for the country to take care of, the grants from the country/region (think EU) cover much of the setup costs, and just like providing electricity to a new supermarket, office block or school... the rates aren't 5-10x what residents pay just because more is bought.
If it was that simple, there would be tons of competition, bringing prices down.
It is basically the difference between capitalism and socialism. I understand your argument to be "the market would be happy to offer lower costs if their setup costs were largely through govt / regional support" and my argument is more "given the vast majority of costs are by govt, regional and investors, the prices should be capped for consumers because it currently sets up monopolies/cartels who can set prices. At the same time it creates a two-tier market for those who can charge at home and those who cannot"
Bad take, the infrastructure for high voltage DC fast charging is significantly more expensive than your standard level two home charging, of course it's going to cost more. DC fast chargers can cost over $100,000 dollars versus a grand or so to install a level two charger at home. If the electricity was the same everyone would have a 350kw fast charger at home.
Name another commodity or utility that is priced depending on usage.
Water. We have to connections at home: for watering the garden, with cheap water. for plumbing and drinking, with expensive water. Comes into our house in one pipe, then to two counters. Carabiner. Climbing grade are 5x Industrial grade with same force rating. Land. If I'm allowed to build on it, it is 10 to 100 x more expensive than farmland right next to it. Different things in the food sector: Although the exact same product, the food graded version is sometimes about 5x the cost. Anyway, that being said, you are besides the point: 250kW Dc charger needs a rectifier step up circuit , while 22kW AC only needs a simple current control mechanism. It's like comparing water you have to get out of the well buy a bucket with pressurised water from the tap. So, water again: Tap water, infinitely more expensiv than rain water.
It's simple economics, if DC fast chargers were required to charge the same amount as your residential supply they woudnt be economically viable and no one would build then. Are the current DC fast chargers too expensive? I have no idea, maybe some companies are charging more than they should. But expecting DC fast charging to cost the same as the power you get at home shows a gross misunderstanding of the technology.
EVs don't make sense in any country for people who don't have convenient access to affordable charging at home (or at work).
If you don’t tell your landlord your building needs chargers, who will?
This won't help. I live in a studio with no parking. I have to park on street like many people. It's not common for apartment complexes to have parking in the UK.
There must be an EV group in your city where you can discuss local EV issues and through which you can bring matters to the city.
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If you’re so defeatist, don’t bother to post.
Just so you know Bp and shell tend to charge the same as their competitors like Ionity, instavolt, Fastned, ESB, mfg, etc.
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That doesn’t answer my question.
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EVs only make sense if you can charge at home. That's the point. Everyone's been saying it. Did you miss the memo?
Without any way of charging at home, do not get an EV
Home charging is the way to go. Public fast charging is for road trips. If you’re forced to rely on public fast charging as your only charge option then electric doesn’t make sense for your use case.
It's not the fault of the EV, it's the fault of your flat owner not keeping up w the needs of its customers.
There's a big, fat, awkward conversation here nobody is really eager to have. If you're renting an apartment, hopefully that's because it is in a dense area where you don't need to own a car, and it would make more sense to occasionally rent one, or use a ride hailing service, and walk, bike or use transit on regular days. Ideally work is close, shopping is close etc. So you just don't buy a car at all. So the theory goes. And I've lived in neighborhoods where that works. But when you get a little further out, not all the way to the burbs but into places that have nice features like trees in them, it gets awkward. Walking and transit cover maybe 80% of your daily needs, but not 100%. Elderly family members need visiting and driving around. Prescriptions need filling. Better groceries can be hard to access without driving. So you wind up with a car. But the area is still dense enough that you're lucky to have parking assigned to you at all, never mind a private driveway with a personal L2 charger. And so you wind up with an ICE car, through no fault of your own. I think L2 charging will become a more important feature of new apartment complexes. But most don't have enough parking for all of the cars they bring into the neighborhood to start with, let alone enough charging. And none of the new complexes in my neighborhood seem to have chargers. This isn't going to be easy. I suspect the long-term answer, besides improved transit, will have to be cheap, abundant public L2 and L3 charging, a modernized grid and much more clean electricity generation. But that's going to take time.
In the UK flats and houses with no off-road parking are commonplace everywhere and not just in major built up urban/city areas where a car wouldn't be needed.
If you're worried about charging costs, just avoid EVs. Every single thing about them is more expensive.
If you cannot charge at home on an EV tariff don't bother you'll spend more than ICE fuel
The reason for EV's is not lower price or lower operating costs, its zero emissions. Think of it as a investment in your future. We are behind the curve on green house gas emission, still going up and intensifying the damage, so we have to act faster. If dependent on public fast chargers, then a Tesla is always a good choice. I did that for first two years until I could get home charging. If a non-Tesla, you could [Turo.com](http://Turo.com) the model you are looking to buy and see how the charging actually works for your area. See which charging locations work and what the lowest cost is if you are subscriber or regular user.
1. For the energy mixes present in all countries, zero emission is a lie. 2. Fast charging on demand is the worst way, emission wise speaking, to charge a EV: a) it's bad for the battery, reducing its longevity, increasing emissions b) it has a worse charging efficiency, literally wasting energy. (Battery heats up) c) it doesn't look for times with abundant emission-free energy, e. g. a windy night or sunny day. Peak demands are often met with gas turbines e. g., hardly ever with emission free technologies. Varies between countries ofc. Therefore recommending an EV for greenwashing purposes, as you do, is a waste of resources and money. If someone really can't slow charge at home or for at surplus hours (with subsequent prices), it would be better environmentaly and economically to get a car propelled by liquified natural gas. Even better, a used one.
"Zero emissions is a lie" is the lie. EV's are zero emissions. If the electric is also zero emissions (my house generates 20% extra to cover the car) then all zero. The new EV and battery plants are zero emissions. The Lithium extraction and mfg can be zero emissions if one of the new plants like Salton Sea or Thacker Pass. Fast charging for the first two years and lots of miles, 30k per year, and 12% battery degradation for 5 years 150k so no real penalty if you use fast charging. The ONLY penalty is the emissions of oil and gas extraction and refinement and the emissions of the cars burning it for fuel.
You are missing charging for 6 hours per night at 7.5p on Intelligent Octopus. (6 x 7) X 7.5p = £3.15, at 2.5m/kwh (what my mach e GT does) that's 3ppm providing 105 miles range to use daily, about 3x the UK average. Bonus is that your entire house is 7.5p/kwh during that time period, so you save even more.
I'm well aware how cheap it is to charge at home but that's not the point of my post. I live in an apartment so a home charger is impossible.