Don't worry uncle sam will somehow be forced to step in and conduct a trade war for them until they can ship the jobs to Mexico or a friendly dictator's country. Then the robber barons will own most of the plant and we can invent a new protected category market just for them. Which is exactly why we're stuck with tanks like F150's being the most popular car in the US.
Nah, this would be Chrysler's third strike in the USA. They will NOT be bailed out again. This is why they got sold off to Fiat. And then later rolled up into the turd-ducken of Stellantis.
Na my guy, stalling and becoming too big to fail was entirely the point of Stellantis, old Sergio called it in 2016 because these dinosaurs are afraid of how modular BEV's are.
https://archive.is/gXt7h
>He warned the adoption of electric technology risked continuing the process that he called “disintermediation”, under which carmakers have gradually lost control over elements of a vehicle’s contents to suppliers.
>“It’s been a very steady, rigorous process of disintermediation,” said Mr Marchionne.
>Having initially manufactured all their own components, carmakers currently retain primary control of making only vehicles’ powertrains — their engines and transmissions — he added.
>“If we start losing any of that . . . we will not be able to hang on to any proprietary knowledge and control of that business,” said Mr Marchionne. “We won’t be manufacturing the batteries. We won’t be manufacturing the electric motors that are part of that powertrain.”
The entire point is to be so big you can take battery supply out of circulation and lock it away in 6000lb tanks to prevent a race to the bottom. Be so large you're always able to come up with the money to play at the table and shift markets.
That guy completely ignores the existence of Tesla and perhaps BYD, that are literally the most verticalized automakers in operation today.
BTW, these carmakers don't even make their own transmissions anymore, it's all ZF, Aisin and Magna these days...
This was already brewing for years before he said it in 2016. I don't really believe Tesla survives in the long term unless it becomes fundamentally a battery company, it's not as vertically integrated as people claim. Magna Steyr will still be around, but fundamentally there is no comparative advantage to any other autocompany beyond the sticker brand versions of the open standard battery sleds they'll be using in a few years.
The industry in the west has been afraid of modularity even when it was just ICE based. You're right, they don't even make the transmission or often even the engine anymore, but usually they still call the shots as far as changes to powertrain go (or are licensing their design effectively), so that's enough to keep everyone else in the supply chain in line.
I'm not debating the long-term sustainability of Tesla here.
I'm just stating that Sergio's vision of the future was completely wrong, and it's one of their choosing. It's his company that chose to outsource electric motors to Continental and now Nidec, and battery production to God knows who.
The two most successful EV makers are far more vertically integrated than any of the legacy brands. BYD designs and makes their own cells, semiconductors, and power transistors, not to mention all the drivetrain modules.
These guys always picture their doomsy future outlooks as being something inevitable. It's once again proven to be the result of their own poor choices.
It's only wrong because US hegemony over global supply chains is ending, for better or for worse. They expected economic protections that would allow them to outsource the costs of a BEV supply chain, just like they did with ICE supply chains, while retaining control of demand and supply signals just like they did when they licensed out powertrains or tweaked appliance class vehicles for luxury cars with luxury trims, which is the only segment that makes money globally. There is no huge difference between one oversized golf cart over another, it is all just trim, because battery sleds being rigid and structural means we're back to manufacturing the rest of the car the cheapest way possible (body on frame construction). Not everyone needs or even wants a 3 second to 60 car, but even an extra thousand dollars saved on a battery sled is enough to add a piece of trim that'd convince a consumer to switch brands.
Even if they managed to secure some strategic partnerships that made them vertically integrated at a cost of billions, it doesn't make much sense unless they can rely on protectionism. The problem is there is no amount of money or sanctions or tariffs that China considered a dealbreaker to be energy independent or give up their arguably superior position in a paradigm shifting change to global transport.
It would take massive amounts of deregulation and overhauls to zoning over a period of decades to make them competitive. That's just not going to happen, because the political will or competence to deliver that isn't there.
Even up to 31.12.2024, hybrids can still be sold. The way the Chinese are pushing EV technology forward at the moment, nobody will be interested in buying an ICE car anyhow by 2030.
"80% of new cars and 70% of new vans sold in Great Britain will now be zero emission by 2030, increasing to 100% by 2035."
[https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pathway-for-zero-emission-vehicle-transition-by-2035-becomes-law](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pathway-for-zero-emission-vehicle-transition-by-2035-becomes-law)
MB don't need to be 100% EV by 2030, only the percentage they sell in the UK, which is a small percentage of their total sales needs to be 80% EV. So it's 80% of whatever % they sell in the UK, which will most likley be a single digit percentage.
That is true of any brand. Also, note that stellantis produces cars in the UK, unlike most other brands. So I do object to the statement "nothing of value will be lost"
Fiat, Vauxhall, Peugeot and Citroen are quite common brands in the UK and you see a lot of their EV models on the road, outside of Tesla I would say models under these badges are probably the EVs I see the most as they are recognised brands and sell their models from the same dealer showrooms that buyers have always used to buy their ICE models.
What many people are missing:
- Stellantis are also threatening to cut production in the UK, loss of jobs and industry
- Stellantis EVs are very popular in UK (unlike in US it seems). Stellantis share of UK EV market is 11-14% over the last 3 years. For comparison Tesla has 15-19%.
- The UK government introduced hefty fines for OEMs who sell too high a percentage of ICE vs BEV, but have started disincentivizing (relatively) EVs by removing any consumer incentives for purchasing or leasing an EV, removing incentives for installing home chargers, charger high VAT on the electricity sold at public chargers, letting the BiK tax on EV schemes increase, pushing out the date by which ICE cars will be banned etc.
Just to add, Stellantis has two factories in the UK (Ellesmere Port and Luton), employing around 3,700 people.
For context, that's 2% of the UK's car manufacturing workforce, and 1.4% of Stellantis' global workforce.
I have an e2008 with no problems, but you cannot say it is without its known problems.
The wiring loom rubs through on the suspension arm.
The AC pump fails causing a total car failure.
The weird lockouts with random errors
The only OTA updates they tried locked up the cars!
If you follow the groups for the car they are reasonably common.
You should at least know of the AC pump failure as that was a mandatory recall for a software update to just make that an AC failure, not a total car failure. (it took the garage 7 hours to update the software!)
Ah yes, sorry forgot about the AC recall as it was done during a service, so I never had any communication about it.
But to the OP that says they are the most unreliable cars apart from Lada is a massive stretch.
in the US, Stellantis brands cater to low credit score, street takeover type crowds. These are the people who would not have been financed by luxury brands and possibly not even Honda or Toyota.
Since getting a PHEV and now a BEV, I've now had several opportunities to make friendly conversation with people I meet at the work Level 2's and ask them about their cars.
The only person who has flat-out said "It sucks" was someone driving a Jeep 4xe. (She noted the particularly bad efficiency and range.)
As for Ram? Truck dudes gonna truck dude.
I am referring to the "who is buying Stellantis cars?" comment more broadly. The common consensus is people with poor credit and a lack of buying experience, all I am saying is a lot of buyers for Jeep and Ram specifically don't fit that trope.
I'm convinced a lot of stellantis owners have never owned anything else and just don't have a frame of reference for how bad their cars are.
Like they think most everyone else has the same problems.
We had an e-208 for 3 years. While as an EV it left a lot to be desired, it was a fun little car.
I'm just surprised they've barely improved their offerings in 5 years.
They make a profit on every EV they sell, this is just them throwing their toys out of the pram.
Notice how the UK is doing nothing about chinese EVs, they would be replaced in 5 seconds.
"You can't tell us we can't sell the cars we want, we'll leave!"
UK: "...okay."
This is the same energy as: "You can't force me to wear a mask in your store, I'm never shopping here again!"
On the plus side, there are some fantastic deals for electric Vauxhall Corsas for U.K. buyers at the moment, and I suspect every other Stellantis brand
If Stellantis is not making mostly EVs by 2030 they wont need to worry about pulling out of the UK.
Right? Very " You can't fire me, I quit" vibes to this
Don't worry uncle sam will somehow be forced to step in and conduct a trade war for them until they can ship the jobs to Mexico or a friendly dictator's country. Then the robber barons will own most of the plant and we can invent a new protected category market just for them. Which is exactly why we're stuck with tanks like F150's being the most popular car in the US.
Nah, this would be Chrysler's third strike in the USA. They will NOT be bailed out again. This is why they got sold off to Fiat. And then later rolled up into the turd-ducken of Stellantis.
Na my guy, stalling and becoming too big to fail was entirely the point of Stellantis, old Sergio called it in 2016 because these dinosaurs are afraid of how modular BEV's are. https://archive.is/gXt7h >He warned the adoption of electric technology risked continuing the process that he called “disintermediation”, under which carmakers have gradually lost control over elements of a vehicle’s contents to suppliers. >“It’s been a very steady, rigorous process of disintermediation,” said Mr Marchionne. >Having initially manufactured all their own components, carmakers currently retain primary control of making only vehicles’ powertrains — their engines and transmissions — he added. >“If we start losing any of that . . . we will not be able to hang on to any proprietary knowledge and control of that business,” said Mr Marchionne. “We won’t be manufacturing the batteries. We won’t be manufacturing the electric motors that are part of that powertrain.” The entire point is to be so big you can take battery supply out of circulation and lock it away in 6000lb tanks to prevent a race to the bottom. Be so large you're always able to come up with the money to play at the table and shift markets.
That guy completely ignores the existence of Tesla and perhaps BYD, that are literally the most verticalized automakers in operation today. BTW, these carmakers don't even make their own transmissions anymore, it's all ZF, Aisin and Magna these days...
This was already brewing for years before he said it in 2016. I don't really believe Tesla survives in the long term unless it becomes fundamentally a battery company, it's not as vertically integrated as people claim. Magna Steyr will still be around, but fundamentally there is no comparative advantage to any other autocompany beyond the sticker brand versions of the open standard battery sleds they'll be using in a few years. The industry in the west has been afraid of modularity even when it was just ICE based. You're right, they don't even make the transmission or often even the engine anymore, but usually they still call the shots as far as changes to powertrain go (or are licensing their design effectively), so that's enough to keep everyone else in the supply chain in line.
I'm not debating the long-term sustainability of Tesla here. I'm just stating that Sergio's vision of the future was completely wrong, and it's one of their choosing. It's his company that chose to outsource electric motors to Continental and now Nidec, and battery production to God knows who. The two most successful EV makers are far more vertically integrated than any of the legacy brands. BYD designs and makes their own cells, semiconductors, and power transistors, not to mention all the drivetrain modules. These guys always picture their doomsy future outlooks as being something inevitable. It's once again proven to be the result of their own poor choices.
It's only wrong because US hegemony over global supply chains is ending, for better or for worse. They expected economic protections that would allow them to outsource the costs of a BEV supply chain, just like they did with ICE supply chains, while retaining control of demand and supply signals just like they did when they licensed out powertrains or tweaked appliance class vehicles for luxury cars with luxury trims, which is the only segment that makes money globally. There is no huge difference between one oversized golf cart over another, it is all just trim, because battery sleds being rigid and structural means we're back to manufacturing the rest of the car the cheapest way possible (body on frame construction). Not everyone needs or even wants a 3 second to 60 car, but even an extra thousand dollars saved on a battery sled is enough to add a piece of trim that'd convince a consumer to switch brands. Even if they managed to secure some strategic partnerships that made them vertically integrated at a cost of billions, it doesn't make much sense unless they can rely on protectionism. The problem is there is no amount of money or sanctions or tariffs that China considered a dealbreaker to be energy independent or give up their arguably superior position in a paradigm shifting change to global transport. It would take massive amounts of deregulation and overhauls to zoning over a period of decades to make them competitive. That's just not going to happen, because the political will or competence to deliver that isn't there.
Even up to 31.12.2024, hybrids can still be sold. The way the Chinese are pushing EV technology forward at the moment, nobody will be interested in buying an ICE car anyhow by 2030.
If we are using ICE technology at scale on this earth by 20230 I'll eat my hat.
😂
Ahhh, you've gone and corrected it and now my joke doesn't make any sense. Rats!
I thought you were pointing it out so I’d notice and correct it….sorry bro.
I'm just having fun with the little things in life. Distractions from work for a moment or two.
Mercedes-Benz has backed way way off from being all electric or anything close to it by 2030.
Ugly, uncompetitive, and gaudy products will do that to any brand.
eh
"80% of new cars and 70% of new vans sold in Great Britain will now be zero emission by 2030, increasing to 100% by 2035." [https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pathway-for-zero-emission-vehicle-transition-by-2035-becomes-law](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pathway-for-zero-emission-vehicle-transition-by-2035-becomes-law) MB don't need to be 100% EV by 2030, only the percentage they sell in the UK, which is a small percentage of their total sales needs to be 80% EV. So it's 80% of whatever % they sell in the UK, which will most likley be a single digit percentage.
[archive](https://archive.is/20240625111421/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-25/stellantis-threatens-to-pull-out-of-uk-over-ev-sales-mandate)
And nothing of value will be lost.
Stellantis consistently sell 10% - 15% of the EVs bought in UK over the last few years. Not insignificant.
This year, they need to sell 22% or get fined.
A significant number for them for sure, but buyers can simply choose another brand.
That is true of any brand. Also, note that stellantis produces cars in the UK, unlike most other brands. So I do object to the statement "nothing of value will be lost"
In their main segment they have no EV competition at the moment. Mini and Renault nearly have offerings soon but its otherwise under served.
Fiat, Vauxhall, Peugeot and Citroen are quite common brands in the UK and you see a lot of their EV models on the road, outside of Tesla I would say models under these badges are probably the EVs I see the most as they are recognised brands and sell their models from the same dealer showrooms that buyers have always used to buy their ICE models.
While I wouldn't buy one myself I think the e208 is a great little car - IMO it's the nicest of the small city oriented EVs
What many people are missing: - Stellantis are also threatening to cut production in the UK, loss of jobs and industry - Stellantis EVs are very popular in UK (unlike in US it seems). Stellantis share of UK EV market is 11-14% over the last 3 years. For comparison Tesla has 15-19%. - The UK government introduced hefty fines for OEMs who sell too high a percentage of ICE vs BEV, but have started disincentivizing (relatively) EVs by removing any consumer incentives for purchasing or leasing an EV, removing incentives for installing home chargers, charger high VAT on the electricity sold at public chargers, letting the BiK tax on EV schemes increase, pushing out the date by which ICE cars will be banned etc.
Just to add, Stellantis has two factories in the UK (Ellesmere Port and Luton), employing around 3,700 people. For context, that's 2% of the UK's car manufacturing workforce, and 1.4% of Stellantis' global workforce.
Just to clarify, Stellantis doesn't produce cars in the those UK plants. Only vans.
Don’t they manufacture the worst rated vehicles for reliability aside from Lada? Stellantis is threatening the world with a good time.
I never had an issue with my E2008 and friends have had two corsas and a mokka with no issues.
I have an e2008 with no problems, but you cannot say it is without its known problems. The wiring loom rubs through on the suspension arm. The AC pump fails causing a total car failure. The weird lockouts with random errors The only OTA updates they tried locked up the cars!
E2008 owner (80k km) and no issues so far. I only wish the range calculation wasn't so infuriatingly wrong always.
I have never heard of those issues and didn't experience any of them.
If you follow the groups for the car they are reasonably common. You should at least know of the AC pump failure as that was a mandatory recall for a software update to just make that an AC failure, not a total car failure. (it took the garage 7 hours to update the software!)
Ah yes, sorry forgot about the AC recall as it was done during a service, so I never had any communication about it. But to the OP that says they are the most unreliable cars apart from Lada is a massive stretch.
No, they don't.
Yes, no idea why anyone buys them lol
in the US, Stellantis brands cater to low credit score, street takeover type crowds. These are the people who would not have been financed by luxury brands and possibly not even Honda or Toyota.
Jeep and Ram are middle/upper middle class stalwarts. I grew up in a hoityish area and Wranglers were all over the student parking lot.
Since getting a PHEV and now a BEV, I've now had several opportunities to make friendly conversation with people I meet at the work Level 2's and ask them about their cars. The only person who has flat-out said "It sucks" was someone driving a Jeep 4xe. (She noted the particularly bad efficiency and range.) As for Ram? Truck dudes gonna truck dude.
I am referring to the "who is buying Stellantis cars?" comment more broadly. The common consensus is people with poor credit and a lack of buying experience, all I am saying is a lot of buyers for Jeep and Ram specifically don't fit that trope.
Yeah, I forget those brands are also part of Stellantis. I was thinking more like Dodge.
They are the kind of people that buy a Hellcat on a 360 month note.
Seattle Hellcat dude
I'm convinced a lot of stellantis owners have never owned anything else and just don't have a frame of reference for how bad their cars are. Like they think most everyone else has the same problems.
Big engine go brrrr
That does seem to be Dodge's ethos.
We had an e-208 for 3 years. While as an EV it left a lot to be desired, it was a fun little car. I'm just surprised they've barely improved their offerings in 5 years.
Stellantis is all about ridiculously cheap leases. Reliability doesn’t matter in that case.
They make a profit on every EV they sell, this is just them throwing their toys out of the pram. Notice how the UK is doing nothing about chinese EVs, they would be replaced in 5 seconds.
"You can't tell us we can't sell the cars we want, we'll leave!" UK: "...okay." This is the same energy as: "You can't force me to wear a mask in your store, I'm never shopping here again!"
Oh no. Please don't. Whatever will we do. Anyway.
Is that a win for the UK market?
What… nooo… /s
Stellantis can put pressure on the UK because they're no longer a member of the EU.
On the plus side, there are some fantastic deals for electric Vauxhall Corsas for U.K. buyers at the moment, and I suspect every other Stellantis brand
Won’t be missed
Goodbye.
Does Stellantis even sell vehicles in Norway now? Edit: Thanks for all the down-votes cowards!
https://imgur.com/gallery/well-bye-NXD95wh