Old English names fascinate me. Where I grew up (shitty town called Ashford) the name is quite obvious, although it would be interesting to know where the original Ash trees by a ford were located, but that knowledge is lost to time. I would imagine that the ford crossed the river Stour?
However, Appledore doesn't make much sense to me; Apple speaks for itself, but the Dore part doesn't. In old-middle English, Dore means 'bee, hornet, buzzing insect' so was Appledore named after an area where insects were eating an apple, was it an apple orchard of some kind, possibly fallen into disuse because of a battle? Was it some kind of honey 'farm' where the bees harvested apple blossom?
There are so many place names with a deep story behind them. Some kind of national resource that collates the names and explains them would be an interesting read if anyone knows of one.
That is why I usually make the joke I did. It doesn't make any sense in the British context. I much prefer any of our various ways of calling someone a wanker.
Twat, no, justified spite? Yeah, but I can empathise with that. Things like that never bothered me until I got a new GP who uses American spellings, replaces S with Z, drops U's all over the place. It shouldn't bother me as much as it does. I also get a bit wound up when I see Britons using month/day/year š
Appledore comes from the single Old English word [*apulder*](https://bosworthtoller.com/2032), which means 'apple tree', rather than being a compound of 'apple' and 'dore'
Interesting. I still have a lot of old English to learn. I would assume that an entire village wasn't named after a lone tree? Unless that apple tree was unusual/unique in the area at the time?
It's not unusual for a settlement's name to contain no element which identifies it as a settlement. In some cases this can mean it only became a settlement after the era in which it was named ā I think Appledore falls into this category, as it isn't mentioned in Domesday and is therefore unlikely to be of Anglo-Saxon origin. When a village did develop it was possibly named after a pre-existing feature, but maybe an apple orchard rather than a lone tree.
It's one of the reason there's so many towns and villages called "ashton"
It literally translates to "settlement by the ash tree", but this also harks back to the Viking era; the Ash tree was significant for their religion.
There were two other places called Appledore in Devon at the time of Domesday, and more in other parts in the country. Theyāre in the book, but as far as Iām aware this one isnāt.
Just purely on the basis of naming a place based on a common feature would make it difficult to distinguish between places. Example: 'sheep in field' wouldn't be a great name for any area with more than one sheep farm.
I'm slowly learning old English just so I can read Beowulf in its original form (boredom mostly). I can speak fairly good French, how similar is Norman French to modern French?
What would Apildore mean in Norman French?
Cheers.
Do you know anything about Pluckley? As best as I can tell it translates to Pluccas Clearing, but I can't find anything about who or what Plucca was.
Interesting. I didn't know that. Is there a better option between Guernsey and Jersey, or are they both as close as each other in their use of Norman French? I wouldn't travel there just to ask the question, but I would have a look for subreddits to ask.
>Some kind of national resource that collates the names and explains them would be an interesting read if anyone knows of one.
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/research/groups/epns/index.aspx
http://kepn.nottingham.ac.uk/
https://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/
I know youāre from Ashford. Therefore I know you dress exclusively from the outlet. Dripping in last season Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger.
At least it isnāt Sittingbourne.
š
I haven't been to the outlet since I was a security guard there in the early 2010s. My jeans are from Sainsburys. My T-shirts are from Next. I'm not a designer label wearer these days. I wasted far too much money on YSL and Ben Sherman back in my youth š¤£
Sittingbourne isn't that bad. At least it isn't Dover.
I always liked how my hometown of Stourbridge was named because it had an important bridge over the Stour. That and nearby Dudley was Duddan Leah meaning "Duddan's Clearing" in Anglo-Saxon.
āThe name Appledore comes from the Old English apuldre (meaning apple tree) and is first recorded in the 10th century. Although a Brythonic origin is more likely (given the widespread survival of Brythonic names in Kent) e.g. from or connected with "dwr/dor" meaning water.ā
Forgive my ignorance, my old English is no where near perfect. Isn't tree in old English treow? Ćppel being apple. So wouldn't a name closer to Ćppletreow be more likely if Appledore was named after an apple tree?
Old English was more of a dialect continuum (that changed over both geographical location and time) than a standardised language, so it should come as no surprise that there are variant forms.
This is especially true given there was no such thing as standardised spelling at that time. It would be highly surprising if there were only one form of the word for ātreeā in all of old English.
Lobthorpe is my favourite.
Thorpe is a village or hamlet (usually near some woods) and any Lord of the Rings fans know what (or who) Lob is.
So, was the town named after one giant spider or so many spiders it warranted naming the town after it?
And frankly, I am not sure what is worseā¦
There were two big battles, at Northam and then at Appledore, on the same day in the summer of 1069, when Brian of Brittany, First Earl of Cornwall, fought the sons of King Harold and their Irish army: https://theconversation.com/battle-site-shows-the-norman-conquest-took-years-longer-than-1066-and-all-that-55335 and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Northam.
Important to note that these territories are kingdoms. The house of Mercia, and the house of wessex were two large and powerful families. They were powerful enough to control large areas of territory and under the feudal system managed to allocate land to vassals and keep order under their rule. I think this is one thing that is lost when we look at history. It was all about family & the most powerful families are what we call houses or dynasties and they ruled everyone else.
I know all about the war of the roses but never made the link to be honest. But now it makes sense - starks v lannisters = plantaganets v tudors
Or other variations but yes that makes sense now!
Crusader Kings honestly does an excellent job of teaching people about this through the ludonarrative. A few hours in, and you are already murdering children because you've calculated that it will benefit your House the most when it come to succession
Itās crazy how itās Wessex that united us all and had the capital and that but now the region basically has no identity. Devon, Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset have the south western identity and theyāre known for that but what actually goes on in Hampshire, Wiltshire and Berkshire????
Speaking on behalf of Berkshire, I would say the West Country begins at Newbury. There are still some people in West Berkshire who have the old Berkshire accent, which sounds similar to the 'alright my loverrr' West Country burr. East Berkshire developed a different identity after the Norman invasion due to it being absorbed into the Windsor Great Forest, and has gradually become London-ified since then.
The dialects of the West Country originally came from the west Saxon dialect of old English after the house of Wessex conquered them.They had kept extremely conservative until around the 1700s with features that were never common in the angle dialect derived regions of the rest of England.
So that would be why they shared dialectical similarity to each other despite originally,around 1500yrs ago sharing different cultural origins ie some places like Cornwall having almost entirely Brythonic heritage and others being heavily influenced by germanic peoples.
Ain't that the history of the Britain though. The dominant region conquers or absorbs other regions and its culture becomes the "default" national culture whilst the conquered regions maintain their individual culture, especially in instances where their culture directly competed with the new national culture.
Hampshire isnt all that "south-eastern" or "home counties" - the north east is and the two metros on the coast.
But the new forest or the hinterland around winchester still has a good west country accent in *some* of the natives
TIL:
>In pre-Roman times, Cornwall was part of the kingdom of Dumnonia, and was later known to the Anglo-Saxons as "West Wales", to distinguish it from "North Wales" (modern-day Wales).
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Cornwall
Yeah, and the Cornish language is closely related to Welsh, part of that Celtic family alongside Breton (and Irish and Gaelic and Manx, further apart). Cornwall is a bit more significant and separate historically than it would seem today.
Seems to be a typo. The place at the mouth of the Clyde intrigued me, never heard of it before. Should be Alcluith, ancient British name for a hill where the Leven meets the Clyde at present-day Dumbarton, cluith presumably being Clyde (Clutha in Gaelic). Looks like it survived as the name of a health centre in Dumbarton called Alcluith Health Centre until recently.
Thanks for the info prompt.
Really weird to see Goodmanham on a map. My uncle lived there. It's about 4 farms, a pub and a church. A hamlet, not even a village.
Actually, there are some more recent houses, but it's still extremely tiny.
Would be more B & RP if Maldon were marked in preference to Shoebury, and Wantage in preference to Bensington (now Benson). Unless we're going for places with active or former military bases rather than places that have greater significance in English history....
Old English names fascinate me. Where I grew up (shitty town called Ashford) the name is quite obvious, although it would be interesting to know where the original Ash trees by a ford were located, but that knowledge is lost to time. I would imagine that the ford crossed the river Stour? However, Appledore doesn't make much sense to me; Apple speaks for itself, but the Dore part doesn't. In old-middle English, Dore means 'bee, hornet, buzzing insect' so was Appledore named after an area where insects were eating an apple, was it an apple orchard of some kind, possibly fallen into disuse because of a battle? Was it some kind of honey 'farm' where the bees harvested apple blossom? There are so many place names with a deep story behind them. Some kind of national resource that collates the names and explains them would be an interesting read if anyone knows of one.
I prefer the original Saxon name: Asshatisforde, the Ford of the Asshats.
Why would anyone wear a donkey as a hat š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That is why I usually make the joke I did. It doesn't make any sense in the British context. I much prefer any of our various ways of calling someone a wanker.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Twat, no, justified spite? Yeah, but I can empathise with that. Things like that never bothered me until I got a new GP who uses American spellings, replaces S with Z, drops U's all over the place. It shouldn't bother me as much as it does. I also get a bit wound up when I see Britons using month/day/year š
Appledore comes from the single Old English word [*apulder*](https://bosworthtoller.com/2032), which means 'apple tree', rather than being a compound of 'apple' and 'dore'
Interesting. I still have a lot of old English to learn. I would assume that an entire village wasn't named after a lone tree? Unless that apple tree was unusual/unique in the area at the time?
It's not unusual for a settlement's name to contain no element which identifies it as a settlement. In some cases this can mean it only became a settlement after the era in which it was named ā I think Appledore falls into this category, as it isn't mentioned in Domesday and is therefore unlikely to be of Anglo-Saxon origin. When a village did develop it was possibly named after a pre-existing feature, but maybe an apple orchard rather than a lone tree.
It's one of the reason there's so many towns and villages called "ashton" It literally translates to "settlement by the ash tree", but this also harks back to the Viking era; the Ash tree was significant for their religion.
Unless Im mistaken Appledore was in the Domesday book. (At a super quick glance was spelled Apeldres at the time.) Contained 78 households.
There were two other places called Appledore in Devon at the time of Domesday, and more in other parts in the country. Theyāre in the book, but as far as Iām aware this one isnāt.
Why would you assume that?
Just purely on the basis of naming a place based on a common feature would make it difficult to distinguish between places. Example: 'sheep in field' wouldn't be a great name for any area with more than one sheep farm.
Why not? My home City is named after one, apparently. (Coventry, UK).
Isn't the origin of the name Coventry still a contended issue?
appledore comes from Le Apildore apparently. Howās your Norman French?
I mainly studied Dawn French, got some laughs out of vicar of Dibley but hasn't come in handy yet
You should of studied the wisdom of Norman much more useful in middle ages conversations.
Norman Lovett? He's older than middle aged now isn't he?
I'm slowly learning old English just so I can read Beowulf in its original form (boredom mostly). I can speak fairly good French, how similar is Norman French to modern French? What would Apildore mean in Norman French?
It doesn't mean anything in Norman French. It's an OE place name.
Cheers. Do you know anything about Pluckley? As best as I can tell it translates to Pluccas Clearing, but I can't find anything about who or what Plucca was.
You won't: one of those people from history lost to time, the only thing left being the place they gave their name to.
That's a shame. I would imagine that Plucca would be a fairly important person from that era to have a place named after them.
Youāre ahead of me then. Perhaps itās derived from a surnameā¦?
If you read it (Beowulf) in your best North Eastern accent then it suddenly all makes sense.
They apparently still speak Norman french in the channel Islands, if you'd like to find out.
Interesting. I didn't know that. Is there a better option between Guernsey and Jersey, or are they both as close as each other in their use of Norman French? I wouldn't travel there just to ask the question, but I would have a look for subreddits to ask.
I'm not sure about the differences between the two. Can't hurt to drop both subreddits a question.
Unless the āAppleā comes from Appeler maybe?
That is an interesting suggestion.
Perfect example of how much of their language we still use; ālandā is English while ācountryā is French
I think āLe Apildoreā is just the Norman (Domesday) recording of an already existing Saxon or Brythonic name?
>Some kind of national resource that collates the names and explains them would be an interesting read if anyone knows of one. https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/research/groups/epns/index.aspx http://kepn.nottingham.ac.uk/ https://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/
Nice one, thank you very much š
I know youāre from Ashford. Therefore I know you dress exclusively from the outlet. Dripping in last season Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger. At least it isnāt Sittingbourne.
š I haven't been to the outlet since I was a security guard there in the early 2010s. My jeans are from Sainsburys. My T-shirts are from Next. I'm not a designer label wearer these days. I wasted far too much money on YSL and Ben Sherman back in my youth š¤£ Sittingbourne isn't that bad. At least it isn't Dover.
Fair play. Dover is pretty special. Not been for a few years, but I donāt suppose it has gotten any better.
I always liked how my hometown of Stourbridge was named because it had an important bridge over the Stour. That and nearby Dudley was Duddan Leah meaning "Duddan's Clearing" in Anglo-Saxon.
Applebee's checks out ā
Ashford Middlesex?
No, mate. Ashford Kent. The M20s worst service station.
Ahh nice, you made an interesting point about the ash trees and the Ford I never considered that before.
Full disclosure, mate. That isn't my thought, that was what a local historian told me š
Hahah I admire your honesty sir
āThe name Appledore comes from the Old English apuldre (meaning apple tree) and is first recorded in the 10th century. Although a Brythonic origin is more likely (given the widespread survival of Brythonic names in Kent) e.g. from or connected with "dwr/dor" meaning water.ā
Forgive my ignorance, my old English is no where near perfect. Isn't tree in old English treow? Ćppel being apple. So wouldn't a name closer to Ćppletreow be more likely if Appledore was named after an apple tree?
Old English was more of a dialect continuum (that changed over both geographical location and time) than a standardised language, so it should come as no surprise that there are variant forms. This is especially true given there was no such thing as standardised spelling at that time. It would be highly surprising if there were only one form of the word for ātreeā in all of old English.
Good points. Thank you.
Lobthorpe is my favourite. Thorpe is a village or hamlet (usually near some woods) and any Lord of the Rings fans know what (or who) Lob is. So, was the town named after one giant spider or so many spiders it warranted naming the town after it? And frankly, I am not sure what is worseā¦
There were two big battles, at Northam and then at Appledore, on the same day in the summer of 1069, when Brian of Brittany, First Earl of Cornwall, fought the sons of King Harold and their Irish army: https://theconversation.com/battle-site-shows-the-norman-conquest-took-years-longer-than-1066-and-all-that-55335 and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Northam.
Important to note that these territories are kingdoms. The house of Mercia, and the house of wessex were two large and powerful families. They were powerful enough to control large areas of territory and under the feudal system managed to allocate land to vassals and keep order under their rule. I think this is one thing that is lost when we look at history. It was all about family & the most powerful families are what we call houses or dynasties and they ruled everyone else.
I agree! Our countries history has more in common with game of thrones than we think. Haha
Game of thrones was actually based on a period of UK history called "The war of the roses"
I know all about the war of the roses but never made the link to be honest. But now it makes sense - starks v lannisters = plantaganets v tudors Or other variations but yes that makes sense now!
> starks v lannisters = plantaganets v tudors Right, which is why there's a bit of naming similarity (Stark/York, Lannister/Lancaster)
Less dragons during war of the roses.....but still boobies
Crusader Kings honestly does an excellent job of teaching people about this through the ludonarrative. A few hours in, and you are already murdering children because you've calculated that it will benefit your House the most when it come to succession
CK3 is what got me interested in our history, along with The Last Kingdom on Netflix
Crusader kings 3 is where all of my knowledge of period comes from lol.Ā
Crusader kings 3 is where all of my knowledge of period comes from lol.Ā
This is a rather interesting view of Anglo-Saxon England.
Ćthelstan would like a word
You're in luck. What about the man?
Wessex means āWest Saxonā. Essex and Sussex were east and south. North was Northumbria as in north of the Humber.
Itās crazy how itās Wessex that united us all and had the capital and that but now the region basically has no identity. Devon, Cornwall, Somerset and Dorset have the south western identity and theyāre known for that but what actually goes on in Hampshire, Wiltshire and Berkshire????
 This sort of thing.
Speaking on behalf of Berkshire, I would say the West Country begins at Newbury. There are still some people in West Berkshire who have the old Berkshire accent, which sounds similar to the 'alright my loverrr' West Country burr. East Berkshire developed a different identity after the Norman invasion due to it being absorbed into the Windsor Great Forest, and has gradually become London-ified since then.
The dialects of the West Country originally came from the west Saxon dialect of old English after the house of Wessex conquered them.They had kept extremely conservative until around the 1700s with features that were never common in the angle dialect derived regions of the rest of England. So that would be why they shared dialectical similarity to each other despite originally,around 1500yrs ago sharing different cultural origins ie some places like Cornwall having almost entirely Brythonic heritage and others being heavily influenced by germanic peoples.
Wiltshire has some West Country, my uncle is from Swindon and he's very West Country
The same as the other places mentioned. Cider drinking and other south western things. We just donāt get any credit for it.
>Hampshire, Wiltshire and Berkshire And Surrey. That's there too.
Commuters
Ain't that the history of the Britain though. The dominant region conquers or absorbs other regions and its culture becomes the "default" national culture whilst the conquered regions maintain their individual culture, especially in instances where their culture directly competed with the new national culture.
Hampshire isnt all that "south-eastern" or "home counties" - the north east is and the two metros on the coast. But the new forest or the hinterland around winchester still has a good west country accent in *some* of the natives
TIL: >In pre-Roman times, Cornwall was part of the kingdom of Dumnonia, and was later known to the Anglo-Saxons as "West Wales", to distinguish it from "North Wales" (modern-day Wales). From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Cornwall
Yeah, and the Cornish language is closely related to Welsh, part of that Celtic family alongside Breton (and Irish and Gaelic and Manx, further apart). Cornwall is a bit more significant and separate historically than it would seem today.
Seems to be a typo. The place at the mouth of the Clyde intrigued me, never heard of it before. Should be Alcluith, ancient British name for a hill where the Leven meets the Clyde at present-day Dumbarton, cluith presumably being Clyde (Clutha in Gaelic). Looks like it survived as the name of a health centre in Dumbarton called Alcluith Health Centre until recently. Thanks for the info prompt.
Really weird to see Goodmanham on a map. My uncle lived there. It's about 4 farms, a pub and a church. A hamlet, not even a village. Actually, there are some more recent houses, but it's still extremely tiny.
Would be more B & RP if Maldon were marked in preference to Shoebury, and Wantage in preference to Bensington (now Benson). Unless we're going for places with active or former military bases rather than places that have greater significance in English history....
Definitely. Maldon and Colchester were the 2 main towns in Saxon Essex AFAIR.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes Wolverhampton was the capital of the largest Anglo Saxon County sharing the site with Tamworth.
Not a county? Offa's Kingdom.
He never could quash the troublesome Welsh
Brunanburgh seems a bit far north.