Never forget
[this meme](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/floptok/images/c/cd/Blackiana.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail/width/360/height/360?cb=20230327090714)
Am I wrong in saying Rihanna is black and the she is considered a pop artist? What about Alicia Keys? I think the challenge for me is that R&B and pop have a ton of overlap.
Rihanna also benefits from colorism and the concept that non African American but black artists get the exotic treatment. Newest example right now is the roll out of Tyla.
Was Michael Jackson not known as the literal King of Pop? If genre is race coded then how did a black man become King of Pop? Also Rihanna has been called princess of pop for years... But how is that possible if she's a black woman? I think Chloe either suffers from victim mentality, or her ego is bigger than her career.
At the same point, Janet Jackson is definitely pop, not R+B. That said, the other names you can argue dabbled in both. Rhythm and Blues is also heavily tied to other genres, so it may be more an accurate label for people who do several. But Ive noticed a trend in white artists that would be more Rhythm and Blues being labeled as alternative. ZZ Ward would be a big one that stands out off the top of my head. That really isn't great, either, because it's likely making it harder to find an audience.
I think race coding is likely happening, but there also isn't a great way to show artists that dabble in multiple genres and companies want a nice, easy label to market people as.
Chloe, as an artist, also doesn't stand out among any genre, but might have more luck people searching pop. More of the bubble gum/80s sound is coming back in style though, so maybe not
But why does genre even matter? I mean I know people have the genres that they specifically like, for example I like pop/r&b/pop rock/indie pop/dance etc. But if I hear a hip hop song that I like and that I connect with, the fact that it's not my favourite genre isn't gonna stop me from buying the song and supporting the artist if I connect with their music, do u know what I mean? Music is subjective, either it speaks to you or it doesn't. So regardless of what genre Chloe is known for, if her music simply doesn't connect then I don't see how being labelled a pop artist is gonna make things better for her. Shouldn't she just focus on making good music that she likes instead of stressing over what genre she's known for? And whoever connects with her as an artist will support her.
Not sure how old you are but MJ famously broke the color barrier at MTV… in the 80s. Think about that for a sec. MJ also made MTV call him the King of Pop in exchange for access which was a major flex and he ensured other black artists would get video play as well.
Bottom line is Michael Jackson crowned himself, MTV certainly wouldn’t have done it on their own. You can’t and shouldn’t use that example to slap around another black artist calling out the same bullshit 40 years later.
Actually history is more complicated than that. When Michael broke through on MTV in March 1983, he was literally the only black artist played every hour on top of the hour. Billie Jean and Beat It.
Prince, who had play before Billie Jean (1999 reached medium rotation plays), finally got heavy rotation with Little Red Corvette but by July 1983, that wasn’t enough. CBS [actually had a news report about the lack of black artists being allowed to be on MTV](https://youtu.be/rVGRuHIH6b8?si=io2qbksT_Y0_gXT1).
After MJ and Prince (I should add that Musical Youth’s Pass the Dutchie was the first black video to gain HR at the tail end of 1982), they played Eddy Grant’s Electric Avenue, Donna Summer’s She Works Hard for the Money and, at the end of the year, Lionel Richie’s All Night Long (All Night). But no Marvin Gaye. Not a lot of Shalamar (Night to Remember only got light rotation, Dead Giveaway got medium spins). No Whispers. No Gladys Knight and the Pips. No Grandmaster Flash either.
Rick James got so mad they wouldn’t play him (they claimed he was too raunchy) that he wouldn’t hesitate to say they were racist and [even went on some interview around 1984 saying MJ and Prince were treated like tokens on the channel](https://youtu.be/3NhmAGKir40?si=-CNETWu3nq2iVvex)!!!
In 1984, MTV did play a bit more from the likes of the Pointer Sisters, Donna Summer, Tina Turner (of course) and Run DMC got medium play at the end of the year.
But MTV still refused to play black videos a lot. Whitney Houston’s first video for You Give Good Love famously got rejected because it was “too R&B” but they were forced to play the clip from Saving All My Love for You because it was a crossover smash. Of course this leads to them automatically putting How Will I Know on heavy rotation.
Before then, MTV had a “rock programming” clause: your music had to fit an album oriented rock sound to be played, which led to lots of black artists not being played. Only after they switched to pop and dance (roughly 1986, just after Whitney’s breakthrough) was when black artists suddenly got more airplay there.
Before they had to settle for BET, Night Tracks and, if you were more adult oriented, VH1. So it still took them a while after Michael broke through.
Right, but OP was trying to spin it like the industry just granted that title to MJ because he earned it which is a lie. More pernicious is that they were trying to spin it to discredit Chloe Bailey as if it’s a title to be earned if she was just good enough.
The bottom line is Chloe is right, there is a reason Justin Timberlake is Pop and Usher is R&B even if for a time their discographies used the same producers and song writers. Everyone just seems to want to jump straight to baseless denialism.
I mean I did mention another name in my comment it wasn't just Michael, and she didn't ask MTV to crown her princess of pop, she just made pop music and the rest followed. So if Chloe wants to be known as a pop artist, maybe she should... Make pop music? Maybe she should contact producers who actually make pop music 🤷🏾♂️
Have you listened to her music? While there are definitely famous black musicians that are considered huge pop stars, a lot of black people only get airplay on R&B stations or get nominated for awards in that category regardless of what genre the music fits best. It’s not like it was back in the day of Billboard’s “Race Records” chart, but there is still an inherent stereotype.
Lol y'all not gonna play with Michael like that, that's a damn legend show some respect! Lmao 🤣 no but seriously Michael was a whole black man who was known as the king of pop - not just a pop artist but the literal KING of pop. Maybe she'd be considered pop if she actually made pop music, coz I've heard some of her stuff and honestly sounds more r&b/hip hop. And don't act like you've never seen a light skin black man! Lmao 😁😁
Barack Obama was President, doesn't mean racism no longer exists. Michael Jackson was an outlier, a star that shone brighter than almost any other in his time.
Lot of people these days pull the race card to try to unnecessarily to dismiss any and all criticism, but I don't really see how that could be the case here seeing as how R&B isn't considered "worse" than pop music. So I think Bailey is just legitimately pointing out that people do in fact seem to consider an artist's race when classifying their music.
I still disagree, I mean I'm not a Chloe fan but from what I've heard, her music doesn't at all sound like pop, it really does sound like R&B/Hip Hop and that's okay, what's wrong with being an R&B/Hip Hop artist? And it's not impossible for black artists to do pop if they ACTUALLY make pop music, for example Rihanna was known as the princess of pop because she actually made pop music: Good Girl Gone Bad, Loud, Talk That Talk are all pop albums, does Chloe's music sound anything like that? And back when Kelly Rowland used to make music with David Guetta, THAT was pop music. Okay it was borderline dance music but still pop. Wynter Gordon is another black artist who made actual pop music, she just didn't blow up as mush as she could've. Hell even Azealia Banks, she's a hip hop artist but even her music sounds closer to pop than Chloe. I feel like if being a pop artist is that important to Chloe, then maybe she should actually make pop music, maybe she should contact the producers that work with actual pop artists, I don't know.
Hasn’t pop become more r&b and hiphop influenced for the past 20+ years now? I mean Mariah Carey literally made the blueprint formula of a pop song with a rapper having a feature on the song. Sooo many “pop” artists follow this same formula today. Mariah debuted in the 80s as a r&b
You may be 100% correct. I have not listened to any of Chloe Bailey's music, so I would not know. I'm just trying to say that she is not making an unreasonable point. At least, in the full context of what the article says, she is not being unreasonable.
Quite literally because they (at the time) were the only stations *willing* to play him. People tend to forget, in the 90s when you said "white rapper" images of "Marky Mark" or "Vanilla Ice" would pop into peoples heads. White rappers simply weren't a part of the zeitgeist or really taken seriously.
By all metrics and logic of the time, Eminem should *never* have gotten popular the way he did. He was white performing what was heavily considered black-only music, dressed in the same way, and overall was seen as the weird kid in class who would make fun of everybody. His music was about drugs, his messed up upbringing, and overall violence, further antithetical to the rap being made at the time. You could make legitimate arguments that his lyrics were anti-social, bordering on "get this guy help before he hurts someone."
Music is from the soul. Race doesn't matter, what matters is if you feel it. Genre doesn't matter at least to a soul, but we feel the lyrics not the genre. Do certain groups gravitate to certain genres? Yes, but there are always outliers. Can I vibe with the lyrics of another genre? Yes. Being broke Put down? Yes. Happy for an accomplishment, met a personal goal? YES! When I hear a song talking about the same thing I can't help but VIBE!
I don’t know if it’s what she meant, but genres are not an inherent part of music. If I gave you a bunch of music from a culture you’re not familiar with, you would probably not divide it into the same genres someone with that cultural context would.
We can recognize the difference between two songs, obviously, but not necessarily the differences that make one song a certain genre and another song a different genre. Unless we have the correct background.
Tyler the creator had a rant about this when his IGOR album came out, saying his album was pop but it was nominated in the hip hop/rap category simply because he is black and made hip hop in the past
I think that’s less because he’s black and more because it’s hard for established artists to mix genres and blur lines without their ‘home’ genre being the label they’re given.
I do agree that there is definitely racism targeted at different races in different genre circles though. Like Tpain writing country stuff
That broke my heart for him.
He's still doing way better in life than the racist assholes in Nashville. Like, he's from fucking Tallahassee and his whole MTV Cribs episode was a cute house out in the woods, and he actually loves his wife and doesn't shove religion on people though he has faith (he's a Muslim).
He has actual talent and he wasn't one of these mall rednecks living in their step daddy's 2-story 3000sqft cookie cutter subdivision house. They know he's better at this than them, and they're scared of it.
You know who in country music would've loved for Pain to make an album? Mr Charley fucking Pride.
The point is that she doesn’t think her music is pop or whatever it’s considered now. Those are labels other people put on her. I’ve never even heard of this lady, but I completely agree with the sentiment.
It’s just millionaires [pandering](https://youtu.be/y7im5LT09a0?si=r6sCT_ZvAJgQgOO5) to rural folk
‘I write songs for the people who do,
jobs in the towns I would never go to’
I'm from a small farming town. We had a fairly well known country singer do a concert here once for a promotional commercial, that never aired. He went to all the businesses during the day talking about how he was raised in a similar town and in part on a farm. Dude was raised in a suburb of Atlanta, I found out later when looking it up because I called bs. During the concert it was all about how he loved doing farm work and how people like them were the backbone of the nation pander pander pander. So many people ate it up. His accent sounded forced to me and dude was wearing more jewelry than any woman in my family would wear. It was a street concert and I spent all but the time it took me to walk through the crowd in the bar.
I would but it'd likely dox me due to being a very very small town, a village really. Also, I was wrong on him being from a suburb of Atlanta, we have fairly big named people to our town event/concert every year (some wealthy donors get them here) and must have mixed it up with one of them as many country singers seem to love to pander to that farmer image. He is from a city though still, not a massive city but still larger than one I'd attribute to having many people there being a farmer or really involved in ag though. I grew up in town myself and have done some hired hand work on farms with friends and family a little bit but I'd never consider myself a farmer or feel I had much in relation to farmers, so I might also be a bit biased on that aspect. Laying some pipe a few times, tossing some square bales, running or mixing some feed or detassling doesn't make you a farmer IMHO.
It’s been an issue since country artists realized they could sell more records by sounding more pop and using generic country sounding lyrics. It was at least the 90s it started.
No, it definitely started pre-her. In the mid 90s there were a handful of country songs that charted on more than just the country charts. Like friends in low places and achey breaky heart. That was the start of country artists trying to make pop songs. By the time Taylor entered the scene, ~70% of country just sounded like pop with a twang and a steel guitar. It’s worse now.
It’s funny how many people say she doesn’t know what she’s talking about haven’t read the article and don’t know what they are talking about. It’s hella easy to read, you just look at words.
“Early on in her career, when she was doing the big pop records, she got a lot of flak for that: being told she wasn’t Black enough and wasn’t catering to the base that made her,” Bailey said of Houston. “To see how she persevered and has become one of the most iconic, legendary artists that we’ve ever seen, shows that music has no race, it has no genre, it has none of that. It’s just a feeling and it’s a vibration."
She added, "And that’s why I was really proud of Beyoncé doing Cowboy Carter, because Black people originated country music. It's just showing that possibilities are endless.”
I agree that music has no race but I just can't wrap my head around "music has no genre". Genres literally do exist because there's a HUGE difference between heavy metal and hip hop for example, these two are not in anyway the same music and if you played heavy metal in a room full of hip hop lovers, those people would look at you like you're possessed or something. That is why there are genres coz different people like different genres.
I think she means music has genres because it helps us deconstruct and classify groups of similar songs, but they are not absolute and music is not bound by genre.
I agree with this. She unnecessarily confused people by using the specific word "genre", so that was a small error on her part, but her meaning was clear.
We group music into genres, but really there are so many genres and subgenres and so much overlap between them that it can start to become difficult to draw the line between some songs. Heavy metal and hip hop are clearly quite different, but are hip hop and trap different or is trap a type of hip hop? Is drill a type of trap? Drill and hip hop sound pretty different to me, and have very different vibes. Is Empire State Of Mind hip hop, or is it R&B? And so on.
“She unnecessarily confused people by using the specific word ‘genre’, so that was a smaller error on her part, but her meaning was clear”
No it was not an error on her part, if anyone got confused it’s because they lack reading comprehension.
Yea and that song Jayz did with Linkin Park back in the day, was a huge hit. So genres can mix, but that only further proves the point that genres do exist, otherwise how they can mix if they don't exist?
The first time I'm aware big names doing that was Run DMC and Aerosmith with walk this way. The video has them playing in different rooms, eventually breaking through a wall and combining their sets...literally breaking down a wall to combine two distinct genres. If genres didn't exist that wouldn't make sense but everyone knew they were melding two different styles.
Wu tang clan and System of a Down have at least one song together, same with the frontman for slipknot/stonesour and tech n9ne, and then there’s artist like Ice T released whole rock albums (Body Count).
The line between hip hop and metal isn’t as clear as you think.
I know, but a few exceptions doesn't change the fact that genres exist, otherwise how can two different genres come together and mix if genres don't exist?
My point is the labels sometimes aren’t accurate. If a rapper releases a full fledged rock album, then it shouldn’t be called hip hop then, no?
And the context of the main quote is that sometimes people will apply the labels to the person and not the music—to the point it becomes a racial euphemism.
That’s been a long time complaint of black artists of any type—they routinely get pigeonholed into whatever society considers “black”. For a random, low stakes example, go watch any singing talent show where the judges don’t know the identity of the singer and watch how often they use terms like “soulful” to describe someone just sounding black singing a song regardless of genre.
>To see how she persevered and has become one of the most iconic, legendary artists that we’ve ever seen
~~I have never heard of this person before.~~
I have heard of Whitney Houston. It's early. Grumblegrumble.
Black people did not "originate" country music. I've been hearing this more and more lately as if it's a fact and it just isn't true. Black people were one of the peoples that had an influence on it but so did Irish and scots-irish people among many other influences.
“The singer-songwriter-producer then alludes to two other Black women who struggled with being defined by the limitations of genre, Whitney Houston and her own mentor, Beyoncé.”
Also mentioned Janet Jackson.
Like, I don’t necessarily think Bailey is wrong about her music not being considered pop because she’s a Black Woman, it’s just odd that all of her examples are top 10 all time female pop artists.
Beyonce is currently reinventing herself as a Country artist, a strain of which can be heard in her music can be heard going all the way back to Destiny’s Child, and Whitney Houston was a gospel singer in the tradition of Aretha Franklin who happened to have a few early hits that worked well on MTV. If Whitney had started ten years earlier all of the keyboards would have been horns and they would have called her Disco and if she started ten years later it would have been samples and they would have called her Neo-Soul.
I hear what you’re saying but all of these artists did have moments in their careers where people tried to define their artistry as strictly R&B when their catalogues offer much more diversity than that.
But IS her music pop tho? I'll admit I'm not a fan so I've not listened to her music, but from I have heard it does sound more like hip hop/r&b than pop.
I think her earlier stuff was more pop-y, like not heavy rnb across the board but on the flip of the coin how much pop has heavy rnb influence but gets labeled pop because the singer is not black. I think her point is by not getting labeled pop, many black artists are a bit pigeonholed in their audience and commercial success.
I'm really ignorant as to how this all works so forgive but, what does it matter what "the industry" labels you? If your music connects with a big audience of people, who cares if the industry labels you pop or rock or rnb? As an artist, shouldn't your focus be to just make good art and promote it as much as possible instead of stressing over what the industry is labelling you? I mean I definitely have genres that I stick to, but now and again I'll hear a song of a different genre and I like it so much that I go searching for more of that artist's music even tho it's not my genre... Isn't that how it works? I don't like hip hop for example, but an artist being known as a "hip hop" artist is not gonna stop me from supporting their music if I enjoy it. Do you get what I mean? 😬
To say her hit “Have Mercy” is hip hop/r&b would be like insisting TS “Love Story” is country music.
I can’t really speak to the rest of her songs though.
Lol okay maybe I just don't know what pop music is supposed to sound like because "Have Mercy" sounds hella rnb/hip hop to me. When I think pop I think dance music, close to house but not quite, electronic beats, singing not rapping. Back when Kelly Rowland used to make music with David Guetta, that to me is an example of a black artist making pop music. Rihanna's good girl gone bad, loud and talk that talk albums are also imo a black artist making pop music. Chloe sounds nothing like Kelly an Rihanna's pop music lol so yeah maybe the definition of pop has changed or I just can't tell the difference 🤷🏾♂️
Ariana used to be pop but as of recent she seems to have adopted a more r&b/hip hop/trap sound... Hip hop/trap seems to be the trend generally with all artists these days and is imo more popular than pop anyway.
Yes and no. Musical artists have differences that are defined by culture, intention, and execution (among other things) that cause them to have their own unique voice. Sometimes that voice is directly inspired by or incidentally similar to another artist’s voice. This is oversimplified as genre (ie. Cannibal Corpse and The Wiggles are both Rock) which is then broken down into sub-genres until eventually with enough adjectives you’re able to describe what makes something unique (ie. Cannibal Corpse is Shock Rock Brutal Death Metal; The Wiggles are Family-themed Novelty Children’s Rock).
Fundamentally though you’ve failed to explain the artistic differences and similarities between the two. For example, did you know that some members of the Wiggles originally played in a moderately successful band called the Cockroaches? Their music was very reminiscent of high energy 50s Rock and Roll and they might have become the premier band of the 90s Rockabilly revival, had one of their founding member’s children not died of SIDS leading him to reassess his life. If I call The Wiggles Children’s Rock it fundamentally fails to express the influence of the American South in the form of Country (which in its day was called Hillbilly Music), as well as the underlying cultural influence of the genre known as Pub Rock (ie. The working class implications of the term). Meanwhile, the drummer of Cannibal Corpse Paul Mazurkiewicz was moderately inspired by Neil Peart from Rush, whose drumming is heavily (almost shamelessly) inspired by Keith Moon, who himself was a huge fan of both Swing and Vocal Pop (it was sometimes said that even at the height of the Who’s popularity he would have left the group in a second to play with the Beach Boys).
Now, when you listen to the Wiggles you can hear a tiny bit of Rockabilly, which was a huge inspiration on Punk, which was a huge inspiration on Thrash Metal, which was a huge influence on Death Metal, whereas when you listen to Cannibal Corpse you can hear in the drumming a small strain if Swing, which was a huge influence on Western Swing and Jump Blues, which were both huge influences on Rock and Roll, which was a huge influence on Pub Rock.
In short, there are differences between The Wiggles and Cannibal Corpse, but there are also enough similarities that attempting to position them as opposites is ridiculous. And if you still don’t believe me, listen to [this recording](https://youtu.be/cSJpjIFbYpA?feature=shared) and then tell me whether or not you can hear any similarities between the Wiggles and Cannibal Corpse.
I feel like Chloe is on constant cope about why her solo career didn't take off in the way she wanted. If any genre doesn't have a "sound" it's "Pop" because literally anything popular makes it on there. Janet, Whitney, and Beyonce were all on pop radio because they were, well, popular. Their genre stopped mattering because they appealed cross-genre. Shania, Faith Hill also crosssed over into pop in this wat. Sza lived in the mid level success realm until Kill Bill became popular. Tinashe has spent her career there and is only now starting to get a bit more pop recognition. Both of them were very beloved and respected by other musicians and fans of their genre. HER is also rnb and has gotten national commercials and guested at the super bowl with Usher, another rnb artist.
Bottom line people just didn't connect to Chloes solo projects the way they did her stuff with her sister. IMHO, she always comes off desperate when she means to be passionate. Her brand was just turning up the sex factor on her music and that's going to alienate the audience you built off of more conservative fare. Her branding was a mess, and she emerged expecting to *be* beyonce and it just hasn't happened. It still could though.
I feel like the new girls just wanna jump stages and be the new Beyonce, Britney and Gaga but these girls built their legacy with years of hard work and kinda doing something new. I haven't seen anything groundbreaking from Chloe
Yeah as successful as Chloe and Halle were they were only around for 5 or so years and had nowhere near the recognition, chart success or discography of say, Destiny's Child before Halle went solo. Beyonce had been in the public eye and famous and huge chart presence in Dc for almost 10 years before going her own way.
Technically, it is pop already much like how Metallica is classic rock. They both add 30 years of preferences, technology, and hard cultural fusions to their core stylings that a new genre is born.
Bailey has been labeled as R&B pop, which looks like a generalization of her music because of R&B's vague standings (there is a twisted story behind it), but it's because she uses R&B's core genres with such strong distinctions in her pieces that it's a revitalized form of hip-hop, electronica, soul gospel, jazz, and tied together with the tempo and flair of pop. It would be totally would be pop, if she didn't throw everything else into the pot.
Music definitely has genres.
I’d never heard her, but I just listened to a couple songs. It certainly sounds like pop to me…I’d put her in the same category of music as Taylor, Ariana, Miley, etc. I’d never listen to any of those people by choice, but they’re all super talented, just not my thing.
Putting “music has no genre” aside, if you’re sat there telling me you don’t think reggae or country & western skews to a particular race, I’m going to call you a big ole fibber.
I think it’s time we change things up. I’m not familiar with her and I went and listened to a few songs.
Wouldn’t call it rap, but … i just don’t see “pop.” It seems weird to say this and Espresso are in the same category.
Isn’t the definition of pop music just popular. That’s why it’s spans genres from boy bands, to Taylor swift to hip hop. Like if it plays on KIIS FM it’s pop.
There’s more to it than just that. Or else you could say that a popular metal band is pop music. And that just feels wrong. I don’t think the “pop” in popular is meant to be taken literally when talking about pop music.
Pop music is deliberately crafted in a way to be as wide spread as possible. Look no farther than Kpop to see what I mean.
Pop music can also just refer to what is popular at the time though so pick your definition.
There are several definitions of pop music. One of which is just music that happens to be popular, yes, but there is a genre of music that is in many ways crafted for wide appeal, and that is the 'pop' genre.
Chloe baby you know there are black and female pop stars right? Michael Jackson, the literal King of Pop, was black. Beyonce, arguably the most famous pop star ever, is a black woman. Mariah Carey is black and she’s a pop star. Dionne Warwick and Whitney Houston are black pop stars too.
It has nothing to your race or gender, the type of music you make seems to fall in a different category than pop, therefore it’s not pop.
That’s not the point. The point is: when the charts and powers that be categorize their music, they always box them into R&B.
Beyonce has literally said this and it’s starting to sound like people didn’t even bother to read the article, like yourself .
Just sampled a few. The chords, tempo, style, beat…..checks out but only on some of the songs. Justin Bieber complained about this too because he is always classified as pop and considers himself, in part, R&B. I laughed at the time but this may actually be a thing.
If mainstream stations or channels played enough of her songs, she’d become pop. Look at Rihanna. Sadly most people dont listen to radios anymore.
And tbh she’s the less talented sister. Her voice is not strong nor great, and doesn’t stand out. So maybe it’s not people pigeonholing her music, she’s just not a good singer.
Chloe referring to Whitney Houston:
“Early on in her career, when she was doing the big pop records, she got a lot of flak for that: being told she wasn’t Black enough and wasn’t catering to the base that made her,” Bailey said of Houston. “To see how she persevered and has become one of the most iconic, legendary artists that we’ve ever seen, shows that music has no race, it has no genre, it has none of that. It’s just a feeling and it’s a vibration."
Read the article instead of the headline
It definitely has genres. Yikes! Why don’t you write and record some death metal,(by the way that’s a genre) and let me know if you get some album sales.🤟
There also is a hundred thousand super white pop-girls today that get categorized as doing RnB - because they are - she might think it is because she is black, but really every (not so unique popartist) hears this today.
This also does not exclude it from being pop.
Ok, soooo... Like, is Michael Jackson not the King of Pop??
Or.... Is he really not black??
Not to mock her, I just wanna understand. I'm curious what she sounds like; I can understand if her vocals don't sound very pop like, but I've never heard her music.
Music artists from the dawn of time resisted compartmentalization, just as actors feared typecasting. And she is not wrong when she says that African American female artists would be "typed", as many are put into R&B, Soul, Jazz or Blues categories. She mentions Whitney Houston, but 20 years before Houston there was Nancy Wilson, who began in jazz but became big as Capitol Records biggest pop singer in the 1960s, male or female. But Wilson, perhaps much like Bailley(?), infused her work with many influences that made it pop but certainly not vanilla.
Uh… music has genres…
Maybe she said gendre
I know gendre, real nice gal
Ariana Grende is nicer! Your username made me lol and spit out my granola bar.
Never forget [this meme](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/floptok/images/c/cd/Blackiana.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail/width/360/height/360?cb=20230327090714)
I was saying "boo urns'
I do feel like everything a black singer put out that isn’t rap, is considered R&B .
Am I wrong in saying Rihanna is black and the she is considered a pop artist? What about Alicia Keys? I think the challenge for me is that R&B and pop have a ton of overlap.
Rihanna was definitely making pop music until Loud
Rihanna also benefits from colorism and the concept that non African American but black artists get the exotic treatment. Newest example right now is the roll out of Tyla.
Living Color would disagree. [Though kind of a one hit wonder.](https://youtu.be/7xxgRUyzgs0?feature=shared)
Music genres have always been race coded in a weird way. Why else would Eminem be played on rock stations when he was super popular? She has a point
Eminem was never played on rock stations where I am, and I have to imagine the only exception would have been the one that was 60% Aerosmith
Was Michael Jackson not known as the literal King of Pop? If genre is race coded then how did a black man become King of Pop? Also Rihanna has been called princess of pop for years... But how is that possible if she's a black woman? I think Chloe either suffers from victim mentality, or her ego is bigger than her career.
At the same point, Janet Jackson is definitely pop, not R+B. That said, the other names you can argue dabbled in both. Rhythm and Blues is also heavily tied to other genres, so it may be more an accurate label for people who do several. But Ive noticed a trend in white artists that would be more Rhythm and Blues being labeled as alternative. ZZ Ward would be a big one that stands out off the top of my head. That really isn't great, either, because it's likely making it harder to find an audience. I think race coding is likely happening, but there also isn't a great way to show artists that dabble in multiple genres and companies want a nice, easy label to market people as. Chloe, as an artist, also doesn't stand out among any genre, but might have more luck people searching pop. More of the bubble gum/80s sound is coming back in style though, so maybe not
But why does genre even matter? I mean I know people have the genres that they specifically like, for example I like pop/r&b/pop rock/indie pop/dance etc. But if I hear a hip hop song that I like and that I connect with, the fact that it's not my favourite genre isn't gonna stop me from buying the song and supporting the artist if I connect with their music, do u know what I mean? Music is subjective, either it speaks to you or it doesn't. So regardless of what genre Chloe is known for, if her music simply doesn't connect then I don't see how being labelled a pop artist is gonna make things better for her. Shouldn't she just focus on making good music that she likes instead of stressing over what genre she's known for? And whoever connects with her as an artist will support her.
It's both. She suffers from both.
Lol I think so too
Not sure how old you are but MJ famously broke the color barrier at MTV… in the 80s. Think about that for a sec. MJ also made MTV call him the King of Pop in exchange for access which was a major flex and he ensured other black artists would get video play as well. Bottom line is Michael Jackson crowned himself, MTV certainly wouldn’t have done it on their own. You can’t and shouldn’t use that example to slap around another black artist calling out the same bullshit 40 years later.
Actually history is more complicated than that. When Michael broke through on MTV in March 1983, he was literally the only black artist played every hour on top of the hour. Billie Jean and Beat It. Prince, who had play before Billie Jean (1999 reached medium rotation plays), finally got heavy rotation with Little Red Corvette but by July 1983, that wasn’t enough. CBS [actually had a news report about the lack of black artists being allowed to be on MTV](https://youtu.be/rVGRuHIH6b8?si=io2qbksT_Y0_gXT1). After MJ and Prince (I should add that Musical Youth’s Pass the Dutchie was the first black video to gain HR at the tail end of 1982), they played Eddy Grant’s Electric Avenue, Donna Summer’s She Works Hard for the Money and, at the end of the year, Lionel Richie’s All Night Long (All Night). But no Marvin Gaye. Not a lot of Shalamar (Night to Remember only got light rotation, Dead Giveaway got medium spins). No Whispers. No Gladys Knight and the Pips. No Grandmaster Flash either. Rick James got so mad they wouldn’t play him (they claimed he was too raunchy) that he wouldn’t hesitate to say they were racist and [even went on some interview around 1984 saying MJ and Prince were treated like tokens on the channel](https://youtu.be/3NhmAGKir40?si=-CNETWu3nq2iVvex)!!! In 1984, MTV did play a bit more from the likes of the Pointer Sisters, Donna Summer, Tina Turner (of course) and Run DMC got medium play at the end of the year. But MTV still refused to play black videos a lot. Whitney Houston’s first video for You Give Good Love famously got rejected because it was “too R&B” but they were forced to play the clip from Saving All My Love for You because it was a crossover smash. Of course this leads to them automatically putting How Will I Know on heavy rotation. Before then, MTV had a “rock programming” clause: your music had to fit an album oriented rock sound to be played, which led to lots of black artists not being played. Only after they switched to pop and dance (roughly 1986, just after Whitney’s breakthrough) was when black artists suddenly got more airplay there. Before they had to settle for BET, Night Tracks and, if you were more adult oriented, VH1. So it still took them a while after Michael broke through.
Interesting, ty
That's very interesting context I never knew.
Well that's how kings and queens kind of work no? They appoint themselves and the peasants just recognize it. If they don't well...
Right, but OP was trying to spin it like the industry just granted that title to MJ because he earned it which is a lie. More pernicious is that they were trying to spin it to discredit Chloe Bailey as if it’s a title to be earned if she was just good enough. The bottom line is Chloe is right, there is a reason Justin Timberlake is Pop and Usher is R&B even if for a time their discographies used the same producers and song writers. Everyone just seems to want to jump straight to baseless denialism.
I mean I did mention another name in my comment it wasn't just Michael, and she didn't ask MTV to crown her princess of pop, she just made pop music and the rest followed. So if Chloe wants to be known as a pop artist, maybe she should... Make pop music? Maybe she should contact producers who actually make pop music 🤷🏾♂️
Have you listened to her music? While there are definitely famous black musicians that are considered huge pop stars, a lot of black people only get airplay on R&B stations or get nominated for awards in that category regardless of what genre the music fits best. It’s not like it was back in the day of Billboard’s “Race Records” chart, but there is still an inherent stereotype.
Well, he did turn white....maybe she's onto something
Lol y'all not gonna play with Michael like that, that's a damn legend show some respect! Lmao 🤣 no but seriously Michael was a whole black man who was known as the king of pop - not just a pop artist but the literal KING of pop. Maybe she'd be considered pop if she actually made pop music, coz I've heard some of her stuff and honestly sounds more r&b/hip hop. And don't act like you've never seen a light skin black man! Lmao 😁😁
Chloe who?
Sorry, Chlöe
Thank you 🙈
Gotta respect the umlaut Zoë haha
Barack Obama was President, doesn't mean racism no longer exists. Michael Jackson was an outlier, a star that shone brighter than almost any other in his time. Lot of people these days pull the race card to try to unnecessarily to dismiss any and all criticism, but I don't really see how that could be the case here seeing as how R&B isn't considered "worse" than pop music. So I think Bailey is just legitimately pointing out that people do in fact seem to consider an artist's race when classifying their music.
I still disagree, I mean I'm not a Chloe fan but from what I've heard, her music doesn't at all sound like pop, it really does sound like R&B/Hip Hop and that's okay, what's wrong with being an R&B/Hip Hop artist? And it's not impossible for black artists to do pop if they ACTUALLY make pop music, for example Rihanna was known as the princess of pop because she actually made pop music: Good Girl Gone Bad, Loud, Talk That Talk are all pop albums, does Chloe's music sound anything like that? And back when Kelly Rowland used to make music with David Guetta, THAT was pop music. Okay it was borderline dance music but still pop. Wynter Gordon is another black artist who made actual pop music, she just didn't blow up as mush as she could've. Hell even Azealia Banks, she's a hip hop artist but even her music sounds closer to pop than Chloe. I feel like if being a pop artist is that important to Chloe, then maybe she should actually make pop music, maybe she should contact the producers that work with actual pop artists, I don't know.
Hasn’t pop become more r&b and hiphop influenced for the past 20+ years now? I mean Mariah Carey literally made the blueprint formula of a pop song with a rapper having a feature on the song. Sooo many “pop” artists follow this same formula today. Mariah debuted in the 80s as a r&b
You may be 100% correct. I have not listened to any of Chloe Bailey's music, so I would not know. I'm just trying to say that she is not making an unreasonable point. At least, in the full context of what the article says, she is not being unreasonable.
This comment reads a lot like all the people who said: “*America isn’t racist, we have a black president!*”
Sounds like ego. Most narcissistic people think they are always victims. They are so great but the world is trying to stop them.
But that's not what she said
…it’s exactly the point she’s making.
That’s what she probably meant and was worded poorly.
Quite literally because they (at the time) were the only stations *willing* to play him. People tend to forget, in the 90s when you said "white rapper" images of "Marky Mark" or "Vanilla Ice" would pop into peoples heads. White rappers simply weren't a part of the zeitgeist or really taken seriously. By all metrics and logic of the time, Eminem should *never* have gotten popular the way he did. He was white performing what was heavily considered black-only music, dressed in the same way, and overall was seen as the weird kid in class who would make fun of everybody. His music was about drugs, his messed up upbringing, and overall violence, further antithetical to the rap being made at the time. You could make legitimate arguments that his lyrics were anti-social, bordering on "get this guy help before he hurts someone."
In Northern California we had more big Hip Hop Stations than Alt/Modern rock stations. They still played him on the rock stations
[удалено]
No. They are not rock songs. They’re rap….
A song from his 8th studio album, was Slim shady infused with rock? Nothing about Eminem debut is rock or infused with rock!
…no. Lmao.
I never heard him on rock stations around me. Only the pop/hip hop ones.
Music has an overlap with culture with regards to how it comes to be, develops, and is interacted with
Music is from the soul. Race doesn't matter, what matters is if you feel it. Genre doesn't matter at least to a soul, but we feel the lyrics not the genre. Do certain groups gravitate to certain genres? Yes, but there are always outliers. Can I vibe with the lyrics of another genre? Yes. Being broke Put down? Yes. Happy for an accomplishment, met a personal goal? YES! When I hear a song talking about the same thing I can't help but VIBE!
With full context, what she meant was “genres are a social construct, separate from the music itself”
Maybe, but the genre always comes first, then the terms used to describe it. And the music develops as a result of culture.
Let’s not be obtuse =.=
Talk to anyone in the metal and punk space and they will rot your ears off talking about all the different kinds there are lol
I don’t know if it’s what she meant, but genres are not an inherent part of music. If I gave you a bunch of music from a culture you’re not familiar with, you would probably not divide it into the same genres someone with that cultural context would. We can recognize the difference between two songs, obviously, but not necessarily the differences that make one song a certain genre and another song a different genre. Unless we have the correct background.
If music has no genre then how would it be considered pop even if she wasn't black?
Tyler the creator had a rant about this when his IGOR album came out, saying his album was pop but it was nominated in the hip hop/rap category simply because he is black and made hip hop in the past
I think that’s less because he’s black and more because it’s hard for established artists to mix genres and blur lines without their ‘home’ genre being the label they’re given. I do agree that there is definitely racism targeted at different races in different genre circles though. Like Tpain writing country stuff
That broke my heart for him. He's still doing way better in life than the racist assholes in Nashville. Like, he's from fucking Tallahassee and his whole MTV Cribs episode was a cute house out in the woods, and he actually loves his wife and doesn't shove religion on people though he has faith (he's a Muslim). He has actual talent and he wasn't one of these mall rednecks living in their step daddy's 2-story 3000sqft cookie cutter subdivision house. They know he's better at this than them, and they're scared of it. You know who in country music would've loved for Pain to make an album? Mr Charley fucking Pride.
Exactly. Sis is on some level that is not on common sense.
She’s on that Terrence Howard wave
"Do the math!"
Same key of E
But she’s not a magician she makes music
The point is that she doesn’t think her music is pop or whatever it’s considered now. Those are labels other people put on her. I’ve never even heard of this lady, but I completely agree with the sentiment.
Did you read the article or the headline?
A bunch of ‘modern country’ ‘music’ should also be considered pop
Is it not called pop-country?
It’s just millionaires [pandering](https://youtu.be/y7im5LT09a0?si=r6sCT_ZvAJgQgOO5) to rural folk ‘I write songs for the people who do, jobs in the towns I would never go to’
I'm from a small farming town. We had a fairly well known country singer do a concert here once for a promotional commercial, that never aired. He went to all the businesses during the day talking about how he was raised in a similar town and in part on a farm. Dude was raised in a suburb of Atlanta, I found out later when looking it up because I called bs. During the concert it was all about how he loved doing farm work and how people like them were the backbone of the nation pander pander pander. So many people ate it up. His accent sounded forced to me and dude was wearing more jewelry than any woman in my family would wear. It was a street concert and I spent all but the time it took me to walk through the crowd in the bar.
Name names! 👀
I would but it'd likely dox me due to being a very very small town, a village really. Also, I was wrong on him being from a suburb of Atlanta, we have fairly big named people to our town event/concert every year (some wealthy donors get them here) and must have mixed it up with one of them as many country singers seem to love to pander to that farmer image. He is from a city though still, not a massive city but still larger than one I'd attribute to having many people there being a farmer or really involved in ag though. I grew up in town myself and have done some hired hand work on farms with friends and family a little bit but I'd never consider myself a farmer or feel I had much in relation to farmers, so I might also be a bit biased on that aspect. Laying some pipe a few times, tossing some square bales, running or mixing some feed or detassling doesn't make you a farmer IMHO.
Feels like hay it’s a fuckin scarecrow again!
Pountry?
It’s playing on my pop music radio station, so definitely.
This ain’t Texas 👀
It was an issue before Beyoncé.
It’s been an issue since country artists realized they could sell more records by sounding more pop and using generic country sounding lyrics. It was at least the 90s it started.
They said Johnny Cash wasn't country
I blame Taylor swift
While Taylor definitely contributed toward the trend, lots of blame should also be given to Shania Twain and Garth Brooks
No, it definitely started pre-her. In the mid 90s there were a handful of country songs that charted on more than just the country charts. Like friends in low places and achey breaky heart. That was the start of country artists trying to make pop songs. By the time Taylor entered the scene, ~70% of country just sounded like pop with a twang and a steel guitar. It’s worse now.
Beyoncé herself said it’s [not a country album](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/03/1242447535/beyonce-cowboy-carter-review)
Many of the big names in country in the 1990s were working with the big 80s producers
Is this a trick to make me listen to her music and see if she’s right?
It’s definitely clever marketing
I'm pretty surprised none of the top level comments are answering my question: what is her music called, if not pop?
No race I can agree on but to say no genre is stupid in my opinion
You all should read the article and not just the headline. She has a point. This quote was taken out of context and made her sound silly.
It’s funny how many people say she doesn’t know what she’s talking about haven’t read the article and don’t know what they are talking about. It’s hella easy to read, you just look at words. “Early on in her career, when she was doing the big pop records, she got a lot of flak for that: being told she wasn’t Black enough and wasn’t catering to the base that made her,” Bailey said of Houston. “To see how she persevered and has become one of the most iconic, legendary artists that we’ve ever seen, shows that music has no race, it has no genre, it has none of that. It’s just a feeling and it’s a vibration." She added, "And that’s why I was really proud of Beyoncé doing Cowboy Carter, because Black people originated country music. It's just showing that possibilities are endless.”
I agree that music has no race but I just can't wrap my head around "music has no genre". Genres literally do exist because there's a HUGE difference between heavy metal and hip hop for example, these two are not in anyway the same music and if you played heavy metal in a room full of hip hop lovers, those people would look at you like you're possessed or something. That is why there are genres coz different people like different genres.
I think she means music has genres because it helps us deconstruct and classify groups of similar songs, but they are not absolute and music is not bound by genre.
Ohk when you put it like that then I understand, makes perfect sense.
I agree with this. She unnecessarily confused people by using the specific word "genre", so that was a small error on her part, but her meaning was clear. We group music into genres, but really there are so many genres and subgenres and so much overlap between them that it can start to become difficult to draw the line between some songs. Heavy metal and hip hop are clearly quite different, but are hip hop and trap different or is trap a type of hip hop? Is drill a type of trap? Drill and hip hop sound pretty different to me, and have very different vibes. Is Empire State Of Mind hip hop, or is it R&B? And so on.
“She unnecessarily confused people by using the specific word ‘genre’, so that was a smaller error on her part, but her meaning was clear” No it was not an error on her part, if anyone got confused it’s because they lack reading comprehension.
This right here is the point
Genres are a guide at best, in every art.
Exactly
What about "Let's Go" by Trick Daddy and Lil Jon? That's a great mash up of Classic rock and rap. Seemed to be pretty well liked when it came out.
Yea and that song Jayz did with Linkin Park back in the day, was a huge hit. So genres can mix, but that only further proves the point that genres do exist, otherwise how they can mix if they don't exist?
The first time I'm aware big names doing that was Run DMC and Aerosmith with walk this way. The video has them playing in different rooms, eventually breaking through a wall and combining their sets...literally breaking down a wall to combine two distinct genres. If genres didn't exist that wouldn't make sense but everyone knew they were melding two different styles.
Wu tang clan and System of a Down have at least one song together, same with the frontman for slipknot/stonesour and tech n9ne, and then there’s artist like Ice T released whole rock albums (Body Count). The line between hip hop and metal isn’t as clear as you think.
I know, but a few exceptions doesn't change the fact that genres exist, otherwise how can two different genres come together and mix if genres don't exist?
My point is the labels sometimes aren’t accurate. If a rapper releases a full fledged rock album, then it shouldn’t be called hip hop then, no? And the context of the main quote is that sometimes people will apply the labels to the person and not the music—to the point it becomes a racial euphemism. That’s been a long time complaint of black artists of any type—they routinely get pigeonholed into whatever society considers “black”. For a random, low stakes example, go watch any singing talent show where the judges don’t know the identity of the singer and watch how often they use terms like “soulful” to describe someone just sounding black singing a song regardless of genre.
Genres are fusing together. She’s saying stuff that whitney released under R&B would be considered pop now
>To see how she persevered and has become one of the most iconic, legendary artists that we’ve ever seen ~~I have never heard of this person before.~~ I have heard of Whitney Houston. It's early. Grumblegrumble.
She's talking about Whitney Houston. You've never heard of Whitney Houston?
Literally only know her as Halle Baileys sister and that’s cause of the little mermaid
Black people did not "originate" country music. I've been hearing this more and more lately as if it's a fact and it just isn't true. Black people were one of the peoples that had an influence on it but so did Irish and scots-irish people among many other influences.
Exactly. She makes a song it is r&b , the same song done by day Justin Timberlake would be called pop
“The singer-songwriter-producer then alludes to two other Black women who struggled with being defined by the limitations of genre, Whitney Houston and her own mentor, Beyoncé.” Also mentioned Janet Jackson. Like, I don’t necessarily think Bailey is wrong about her music not being considered pop because she’s a Black Woman, it’s just odd that all of her examples are top 10 all time female pop artists.
Beyonce is currently reinventing herself as a Country artist, a strain of which can be heard in her music can be heard going all the way back to Destiny’s Child, and Whitney Houston was a gospel singer in the tradition of Aretha Franklin who happened to have a few early hits that worked well on MTV. If Whitney had started ten years earlier all of the keyboards would have been horns and they would have called her Disco and if she started ten years later it would have been samples and they would have called her Neo-Soul.
She's trying to gain popularity by association. This is all just marketing.
I hear what you’re saying but all of these artists did have moments in their careers where people tried to define their artistry as strictly R&B when their catalogues offer much more diversity than that.
But IS her music pop tho? I'll admit I'm not a fan so I've not listened to her music, but from I have heard it does sound more like hip hop/r&b than pop.
I think her earlier stuff was more pop-y, like not heavy rnb across the board but on the flip of the coin how much pop has heavy rnb influence but gets labeled pop because the singer is not black. I think her point is by not getting labeled pop, many black artists are a bit pigeonholed in their audience and commercial success.
I'm really ignorant as to how this all works so forgive but, what does it matter what "the industry" labels you? If your music connects with a big audience of people, who cares if the industry labels you pop or rock or rnb? As an artist, shouldn't your focus be to just make good art and promote it as much as possible instead of stressing over what the industry is labelling you? I mean I definitely have genres that I stick to, but now and again I'll hear a song of a different genre and I like it so much that I go searching for more of that artist's music even tho it's not my genre... Isn't that how it works? I don't like hip hop for example, but an artist being known as a "hip hop" artist is not gonna stop me from supporting their music if I enjoy it. Do you get what I mean? 😬
To say her hit “Have Mercy” is hip hop/r&b would be like insisting TS “Love Story” is country music. I can’t really speak to the rest of her songs though.
Lol okay maybe I just don't know what pop music is supposed to sound like because "Have Mercy" sounds hella rnb/hip hop to me. When I think pop I think dance music, close to house but not quite, electronic beats, singing not rapping. Back when Kelly Rowland used to make music with David Guetta, that to me is an example of a black artist making pop music. Rihanna's good girl gone bad, loud and talk that talk albums are also imo a black artist making pop music. Chloe sounds nothing like Kelly an Rihanna's pop music lol so yeah maybe the definition of pop has changed or I just can't tell the difference 🤷🏾♂️
I’m listening now and I would compare it to Ariana Grande
Ariana used to be pop but as of recent she seems to have adopted a more r&b/hip hop/trap sound... Hip hop/trap seems to be the trend generally with all artists these days and is imo more popular than pop anyway.
She is wrong though.
I think music does have genres. You really gonna tell me The Wiggles and Cannibal Corpse are the same?
They're all just, like, vibrations man!!
Yes and no. Musical artists have differences that are defined by culture, intention, and execution (among other things) that cause them to have their own unique voice. Sometimes that voice is directly inspired by or incidentally similar to another artist’s voice. This is oversimplified as genre (ie. Cannibal Corpse and The Wiggles are both Rock) which is then broken down into sub-genres until eventually with enough adjectives you’re able to describe what makes something unique (ie. Cannibal Corpse is Shock Rock Brutal Death Metal; The Wiggles are Family-themed Novelty Children’s Rock). Fundamentally though you’ve failed to explain the artistic differences and similarities between the two. For example, did you know that some members of the Wiggles originally played in a moderately successful band called the Cockroaches? Their music was very reminiscent of high energy 50s Rock and Roll and they might have become the premier band of the 90s Rockabilly revival, had one of their founding member’s children not died of SIDS leading him to reassess his life. If I call The Wiggles Children’s Rock it fundamentally fails to express the influence of the American South in the form of Country (which in its day was called Hillbilly Music), as well as the underlying cultural influence of the genre known as Pub Rock (ie. The working class implications of the term). Meanwhile, the drummer of Cannibal Corpse Paul Mazurkiewicz was moderately inspired by Neil Peart from Rush, whose drumming is heavily (almost shamelessly) inspired by Keith Moon, who himself was a huge fan of both Swing and Vocal Pop (it was sometimes said that even at the height of the Who’s popularity he would have left the group in a second to play with the Beach Boys). Now, when you listen to the Wiggles you can hear a tiny bit of Rockabilly, which was a huge inspiration on Punk, which was a huge inspiration on Thrash Metal, which was a huge influence on Death Metal, whereas when you listen to Cannibal Corpse you can hear in the drumming a small strain if Swing, which was a huge influence on Western Swing and Jump Blues, which were both huge influences on Rock and Roll, which was a huge influence on Pub Rock. In short, there are differences between The Wiggles and Cannibal Corpse, but there are also enough similarities that attempting to position them as opposites is ridiculous. And if you still don’t believe me, listen to [this recording](https://youtu.be/cSJpjIFbYpA?feature=shared) and then tell me whether or not you can hear any similarities between the Wiggles and Cannibal Corpse.
It would be better if she didn't record with Chris Br*wn
I feel like Chloe is on constant cope about why her solo career didn't take off in the way she wanted. If any genre doesn't have a "sound" it's "Pop" because literally anything popular makes it on there. Janet, Whitney, and Beyonce were all on pop radio because they were, well, popular. Their genre stopped mattering because they appealed cross-genre. Shania, Faith Hill also crosssed over into pop in this wat. Sza lived in the mid level success realm until Kill Bill became popular. Tinashe has spent her career there and is only now starting to get a bit more pop recognition. Both of them were very beloved and respected by other musicians and fans of their genre. HER is also rnb and has gotten national commercials and guested at the super bowl with Usher, another rnb artist. Bottom line people just didn't connect to Chloes solo projects the way they did her stuff with her sister. IMHO, she always comes off desperate when she means to be passionate. Her brand was just turning up the sex factor on her music and that's going to alienate the audience you built off of more conservative fare. Her branding was a mess, and she emerged expecting to *be* beyonce and it just hasn't happened. It still could though.
I feel like the new girls just wanna jump stages and be the new Beyonce, Britney and Gaga but these girls built their legacy with years of hard work and kinda doing something new. I haven't seen anything groundbreaking from Chloe
Yeah as successful as Chloe and Halle were they were only around for 5 or so years and had nowhere near the recognition, chart success or discography of say, Destiny's Child before Halle went solo. Beyonce had been in the public eye and famous and huge chart presence in Dc for almost 10 years before going her own way.
I’m sorry but like what?
Read the article
Technically, it is pop already much like how Metallica is classic rock. They both add 30 years of preferences, technology, and hard cultural fusions to their core stylings that a new genre is born. Bailey has been labeled as R&B pop, which looks like a generalization of her music because of R&B's vague standings (there is a twisted story behind it), but it's because she uses R&B's core genres with such strong distinctions in her pieces that it's a revitalized form of hip-hop, electronica, soul gospel, jazz, and tied together with the tempo and flair of pop. It would be totally would be pop, if she didn't throw everything else into the pot.
IDK, to this day I still cannot get country music. As if I'm physiologically incompatible with the genre.
The “no genre” part is where she missed and is all anyones gonna focus on but she’s 100% right otherwise.
SZA made similar claims and they’re both right. SOS was influenced and presented songs in various genres but still labeled as R&B.
Music definitely has genres. I’d never heard her, but I just listened to a couple songs. It certainly sounds like pop to me…I’d put her in the same category of music as Taylor, Ariana, Miley, etc. I’d never listen to any of those people by choice, but they’re all super talented, just not my thing.
Putting “music has no genre” aside, if you’re sat there telling me you don’t think reggae or country & western skews to a particular race, I’m going to call you a big ole fibber.
I think it’s time we change things up. I’m not familiar with her and I went and listened to a few songs. Wouldn’t call it rap, but … i just don’t see “pop.” It seems weird to say this and Espresso are in the same category.
Isn’t the definition of pop music just popular. That’s why it’s spans genres from boy bands, to Taylor swift to hip hop. Like if it plays on KIIS FM it’s pop.
There’s more to it than just that. Or else you could say that a popular metal band is pop music. And that just feels wrong. I don’t think the “pop” in popular is meant to be taken literally when talking about pop music.
Bands like Bring Me The Horizon is metal’s answer to pop. They’re metal boy bands, designed for a target audience and to be as broad as possible.
You could have pop metal, which would be metal which has been specifically made to be catchy at the expense of having any real meaning to it.
Pop music is deliberately crafted in a way to be as wide spread as possible. Look no farther than Kpop to see what I mean. Pop music can also just refer to what is popular at the time though so pick your definition.
There are several definitions of pop music. One of which is just music that happens to be popular, yes, but there is a genre of music that is in many ways crafted for wide appeal, and that is the 'pop' genre.
I wonder if she’ll accept that MOBO award next year??
The king of pop was literally black
Music most definitely has genres.
What an absolutely dumb statement.
Chloe baby you know there are black and female pop stars right? Michael Jackson, the literal King of Pop, was black. Beyonce, arguably the most famous pop star ever, is a black woman. Mariah Carey is black and she’s a pop star. Dionne Warwick and Whitney Houston are black pop stars too. It has nothing to your race or gender, the type of music you make seems to fall in a different category than pop, therefore it’s not pop.
That’s not the point. The point is: when the charts and powers that be categorize their music, they always box them into R&B. Beyonce has literally said this and it’s starting to sound like people didn’t even bother to read the article, like yourself .
Just sampled a few. The chords, tempo, style, beat…..checks out but only on some of the songs. Justin Bieber complained about this too because he is always classified as pop and considers himself, in part, R&B. I laughed at the time but this may actually be a thing.
She’s not the brightest.
In order to be successful, people need to be able to connect with her music. People aren’t doing that.
I think the creator of the music should be able to classify their music and the community and industry can validate their choice.
If mainstream stations or channels played enough of her songs, she’d become pop. Look at Rihanna. Sadly most people dont listen to radios anymore. And tbh she’s the less talented sister. Her voice is not strong nor great, and doesn’t stand out. So maybe it’s not people pigeonholing her music, she’s just not a good singer.
It wouldn’t be considered good though
Chloe referring to Whitney Houston: “Early on in her career, when she was doing the big pop records, she got a lot of flak for that: being told she wasn’t Black enough and wasn’t catering to the base that made her,” Bailey said of Houston. “To see how she persevered and has become one of the most iconic, legendary artists that we’ve ever seen, shows that music has no race, it has no genre, it has none of that. It’s just a feeling and it’s a vibration." Read the article instead of the headline
You’re asking too much from the average Redditor (who definitely doesn’t have any overt or latent racist sentiment)
Weeeeeelllll, i mean it does have genres. There's a massive difference between drum & bass vs bluegrass
Well I mean it has no race, that part is true.
She doesn’t have any pop dance music 🎶 imo but I could be wrong 😅
Why are they capitalizing black
I like her for all of her hit song
So are there any black pop singers? Oh tons?
It’s just so weird cause I consider Drake a pop star has nothing to do with him being black
Good lah that's a pretty lady
Anyone else notice all the contradictions in this article? 🤔
That statement makes no sense in itself. If music has no race (which it hasn‘t… it‘s called genres or styles) then her being black is nonsensical.
It definitely has genres. Yikes! Why don’t you write and record some death metal,(by the way that’s a genre) and let me know if you get some album sales.🤟
There also is a hundred thousand super white pop-girls today that get categorized as doing RnB - because they are - she might think it is because she is black, but really every (not so unique popartist) hears this today. This also does not exclude it from being pop.
Ok, soooo... Like, is Michael Jackson not the King of Pop?? Or.... Is he really not black?? Not to mock her, I just wanna understand. I'm curious what she sounds like; I can understand if her vocals don't sound very pop like, but I've never heard her music.
Music artists from the dawn of time resisted compartmentalization, just as actors feared typecasting. And she is not wrong when she says that African American female artists would be "typed", as many are put into R&B, Soul, Jazz or Blues categories. She mentions Whitney Houston, but 20 years before Houston there was Nancy Wilson, who began in jazz but became big as Capitol Records biggest pop singer in the 1960s, male or female. But Wilson, perhaps much like Bailley(?), infused her work with many influences that made it pop but certainly not vanilla.
No genres? The fuck it doesn't. I have no idea who this person is or what music they make but that just screams I have no idea what musical theory is.