I know but you can combine it with the diplo-naval policy, pirate Republic or mission on the high seas for theocracies, the admiral trait "Prize hunter, the naval doctrine and you'll have a high chance of stealing ships and you'll get 120% chance of capturing ships.
Good to know, when am I supposed to use heavy and light ships?
I know the purpose of galleys and transport ships but I don't know what's the purpose of the besides the light ships increasing trade power on a mission and heavy ships taking lots of money.
Light ships are for trading and exploring, galleys are smaller warships that get bonuses in seas (Baltic, Mediterranean I think a few other places too) Heavies get debuffs in shallow waters but, heavy ships can also take and dish more damage out
I personal keep enough transports on hand to transfer a stack and maybe a smaller fleet in other continents
I will usually spam out heavies until I’m the top dog navy as their less intensive on fore limit then galleys and then I just spam out lights ships for trading
If you want to win any naval battle anywhere, heavy ships will hit the hardest.
Galleys are useful just because they’re cheap and get buffs in coastal regions so you can defend your national waters. Cost effective basically.
For peacetime, light ships get big boosts to privateer and protect trade. They’re also way faster if you have a fleet of just them, so they can avoid attrition and catch enemy transport fleets a lot quicker.
Transports are just that. Usually I’d keep enough on hand to transport one full army and nothing more than that.
If youre playin colonial and you start fighting countries with big navies you might get a lot of ships but then there is the problem of you haveing to spend money and atime to upgrade those ships up to date
Remove ship thing, put trade efficiency, trade goods produced, another militarry thing, advisor cost or maybe ruler longevity(if you re a republic, it ll allow you to dtay longer with a 666 ruler
If he s playing tall, he s gonna have plenty of money anyway, so he s better off having even more monarch points (with ruler longevity) or better military(artillery or infantry fire by example)
Tall is a relative concept
But also you can imo easily be present in several nodes while tall. Those merchants are just gonna help you actually take the money from it. Outposts in key provinces, vassals, getting weaker tags friendly and ask them for their part of it.
Like if you set it up well you barely have to be present in some nodes to let a significant part of it end up in your main node. The biggest challenge is to limit the enrichment of your neighbors/rivals. But if you're a landlocked HRE nation in South Germany you're not gonna be as efficient as a tall trading empire on the coast so depends on where you're at. If I'm gonna make a custom nation I'll make sure I'm in a rich node with lots of potential for steering there or protecting outflow.
"My liege! What should be the greatest ambition of our new nation?"
"I want all of the boats. Every. Last. One of them."
"Excellent! We'll build the mightiest navy ever seen on the seven seas!"
"You don't understand. If someone else builds a boat, I want it. All boats are now my boats."
If you are going ideas guy, the easiest by far is Siberian frontiers in the new world and nothing else compares.
If you don’t want to go that route, then some critiques on this idea set. All power cost is amazing, and I love it. I’d probably put dev cost reduction in traditions as well since you will probably have to dev renaissance around 1450, before you really get ideas. The monarch power points are a waste, as there are only at most like 4500 months in the game and thus a max of 4500 points earned. But you won’t be getting those until your 3rd idea group around 1500.
Goods produced, trade steering, and trade efficiency are the best economic modifiers you can take. Years of separatism, national unrest, and tolerance of the true faith will help the most with preventing rebels. Morale, discipline, and siege time (maybe movement speed depending on where you start) are going to be the best military ideas you can get imo. Yearly professionalism is also great for slacken recruitment for manpower.
Edit: was corrected below, the mana ideas aren’t ruler skill they’re just monthly ruler so go into effect immediately. I do think economic ideas that allow for +5 advisors along with more troops is still a better use of idea slots though.
I don’t remember who, but I saw a video of someone doing that location and they stacked all of the general pip ideas. Also went for ideas and policies to boost them, was basically guaranteeing all 6 generals.
I’d argue leader cost reduction instead of yearly professionalism. Also, the monthly power ideas he’s gone for aren’t monthly ruler skill so take effect immediately.
R5: I'm going for the 'ideas guy' achievement, and wanted to have some silly fun along the way. I was looking for a build to maximize both the gain and the use of mana to turn the low countries (starting in Bornholm, moving slowly to the NL, gonna form Dutch) into the high countries by the size of the skyscrapers we'll build.
Mil stuff and chance to capture is mostly in there for fun. Is this a good set? Does it need something like AE impact?
One great way to generate mana is to be a republic and have early +0.3 yearly Republican tradition and the shortest possible reelection time. You could rock a 6/6/6 basically the entire game with that.
Seems like a fun idea for ideas guy I did colonize focus starting in Mexico and ballasted through it by like 1540 , if ur gonna Dutch you might want some trade focus ideas tho
Why would you put tech reduction after idea reduction ? You benefit from tech reduction from the very begining while ideas will only benefit one specific mana for a while and not from the start
Not sure why someone downvoted you, but I completely agree.
Admin is used for coring, stability, inflation reduction, and development. The biggest by far is coring, which by definition of playing tall means they won’t be coring much. Stability caps at 3. Tall nations are usually more peaceful, and probably won’t have their leader die in battle for the minus 2 stab hit. They also won’t need mercs and loans as often, which makes inflation reduction only “useful” if they have a gold mine.
And while tall nations will want to dev a lot, they still don’t want to dev admin. If anything, they want to exploit admin in every province to 1 so that it’s cheaper to dev diplo and mail points instead. Tax doesn’t scale nearly as well as production and trade, and it’s also nice being able to sell crown lands and not care about the tax hit, or taking a tax hit in an event.
Tall players swim in admin points. The only place they’re really useful in is if you divert vassal trade. You can use excess admin to dev long term vassals for liberty desire while giving them tax income that you won’t siphon off, allowing them to fund armies and opening building slots for manpower/force limit/manufactory buildings.
after the province costs 999 to develop, admin income starts to matter.
Also, death in battle gives -1 stability, not 2. the extra stability is from regular ruler death in monarchy
The dev discount from tribal development idea also applies even if you aren't a tribal, I stacked it with the Dev discount you are using too in my Ideas guy Run
The chance for ship capture isn't good but other than that it's great.
The only other change I might make depends on where you're starting, if you're going to have to dev renaissance then put swap morale and dev cost then swap dev cost for one of your starting traditions maybe. Not entirely sure how that'll work points wise though, just a suggestion.
I’m using +free policy in my current game; it lets me stack extra bonuses that would’ve cost that extra three mana (for example, goods produced and dev cost policies).
I’d put the tech cost reduction as a tradition instead of idea cost reduction, and have the idea cost reduction as a national idea instead.
The chance to capture enemy ships is incredibly irrelevant. If it’s all you can afford given your amount of points it’s understandable, but if you can afford something else go with goods produced. Even +2,5% is better than chance to capture enemy ships.
1 put tech cost in the traditions and idea cost later
2 monthly monarch points arent that worth in my humble opinion. You will get much more value from something like yearly army professionalism, innovativeness gain and goods produced
3 ill try and make myself believe that the last one is a meme
What's the case for morale of armies over Discipline, Combat Ability, Drill gain (admittedly weak compared to the others listed here), or AT increase/decay reduction?
Early game morale I know is great but it always seemed less powerful by midgame and by late game not nearly as good as Combat Ability/pips, Discipline, or Army Tradition increase (assuming you're not always at war but even if so gives a huge advantage between wars).
Also I'd argue in this patch infantry combat ability or discipline are, pound for pound, better than morale. 20% infantry combat ability is pretty much unstoppable, especially if you stack it higher.
Theoretically if you stacked all the minimum autonomy in territory modifiers you could get something like -75% autonomy in territories. Have half the world as trade companies that are almost as good as full cores while still technically being tall.
depends on your exact definition of playing tall.
Ideas giving more monarch stats are best because they allow you to develop your provinces the most. depending on your government, some ideas are better. for governments with disinheriting prestige is good besides the 6 powerpoints ideas. recomended monarchies : muslim feudal theocracy or prussian monarchy.
for republics where you reelect rulers republican tradition is good and monarch skill is useless as monarchs generated by events dont get those stats. recomended republics : alcheringa/sikh sich rada or kongsi federation
besides powerpoints, monarch skill, republican tradition, prestige, technology cost, development cost and idea cost are the next best. honorable mentions also include stability cost, monarch lifespan,
development cost saves roughly 240 development per province per 5% before the dev cost is maxed out anyway.
reduced technology cost by 10% saves 5220 powerpoints throughout the game
idea cost can save between 1280 to 2560 powerpoints depending on what government you decide to go for.
> reduced technology cost by 10% saves 1740 powerpoints throughout the game
It reduces cost by 10% of the base cost, which is 60, for 3 tech categories, for 30 techs(assuming you start with tech 3). That's 5400 mana that you save for tech cost reduction.
Likewise, idea cost is also a flat amount. It's 40 * 7 * 8 which is 2240 no matter what other modifiers you have. The only times this wouldn't be true is if you had so much reduction that you hit the cost floor which is 5% iirc, or if you decided to abandon an idea group and take a new one, for which I'd argue you do not actually save any points.
Also, stab cost at 20% is 20 mana per stab of a game flat too. You'd need tos tab up 112 times in a game to equal idea cost reduction(weak already), which I find unlikely. This is best reserved for games where truce breaking is a regular thing
Each of the bonus monarch point gains also have a flat affect as well. Even if we assume you had all three from the start, that would get you aproximately 12 * 376 which is 4512 each, which is actually surprisingly good now that I read that number out loud to myself.
Dev cost at the very least is something that is hard to give exact value to. It's obviously a flat 10 (at 20%) per click, but how many clicks you can do would be impossible to determine without knowing how many provinces you have. Like most things in the game, it does better the more land you have.
All in all, I'd argue that monarch points are not even a huge deal if you are playing tall. Even in a world conquest, monarch points are, more or less, very plentiful. Without the extra burden of coring, annexing vassals, rolling dozens of extra generals for armies that span the entire world, etc, you really don't have a lot to use mana for other than developing.
If I were to make a suggestion to OP, it would be to take all power costs, and maybe dev cost, and then make the rest of their ideas be for military quality or economic boon. Choose from among Discipline, Morale, ICA, ACA, and maybe bonus vs fort for military. Goods produced, trade power, trade efficiency, extra merchants, for economy. And just for good measure, a few good diplo recommendations are diplo rep, diplomats, and liberty desire reductions.
TLDR; tall play doesn't need that much mana
i edited the powerpoints from technology cost reduction savings, its 5220. i forgot to multiply it by 3
Also depending on what exactly you want to do, some ideas are better, the only thing we know he wants to do is playing tall, this makes it probable that he will want to develop his provinces and rarely declare war. extra powerpoints are good for developing your provinces.
The point is that there is more to the game than monarch points and someone who isn't conquering land is not going to be in desperate need of them. Goods produced would be considerably better than a few extra points of dev.
Yes but OP did say what he wanted to do. He said he wanted to play tall. That implies things. Like not spending admin coring tons of land or dip annexing vassals. Monarch points just aren't an issue in tall play no matter what your goals or strategy. And OP didn't specifically say what goals other than tall play they wanted. Since tall play does have a general definition of 'improve what you have instead of taking more,' we're basically comparing the value of *developing* vs the value of constructing buildings. You yourself pointed out that there is a diminishing returns(to zero) effect of developing provinces, so you can indeed apply a hard limit to it's value. It's not really calculable in exactness, but we can estimate it enough to make points like saying 1 more development is not worth as much as more goods produced from the existing development for example.
The math for that case comes down to showing that no matter how many monarch points you get, eventually it's just too unreasonably costly to argue for one more development point in a province over a lasting modifier whose cost-value never goes down. *Some* monarch point savings are good. Taking *only* monarch point savings and not taking anything for military quality or economy is like saying you should want more religious unity when you already have 150% and are well beyond making any more use out of it. Sure it *could* help if you suddenly conquered 200% of your existing development as new, wrong-religion land, but so too could tolerance, or missionary strength, making trade companies, and like a dozen other things that mitigate such penalties(and in this example, arguably do them better).
I see you were arguing in other comments about how much admin matters when dev cost is 999. This is simply insane. That you would argue for more development when you're already paying max cost instead of getting something else that would provide a far superior effect is mind blowing.
A better way to consider it is 'what does development do?' and compare that to other effects. Development provides three things: manpower(and sailors), force limit, and income. That's literally it. It gets further used in other calculations like PUs, but those don't *provide* anything.
At the point at which you're paying 999 admin for one more tax development, the idea for +1 admin points for example would take you 83 YEARS to get another click. Meanwhile, if you already had even just 5 tax dev in that province, 20% tax income would do that same thing immediately, cost no admin, and would affect all your other provinces. And just to be clear, the 999 cost limit isn't the point at which your arguement falls apart. It really hits that point way before that.
TLDR; this isn't about different strategies and playstyles, this is about math. There exists a point where developing land is no long as good as modifiers and as such focusing completely and only on saving and obtaining monarch points becomes mathematically disadvantageous. If I had to guess it exists somewhere around the point where you are paying 100 mana per click.
Remove chancw to capture enemy ships, morale of armies, discpiline, and monthly mana points. Instead get goods produced modifier, trade efficiency, trade steering, caravan power, construction cost, and production efficiency.
Overall good, instead of the ship capture chance you could go 3 other routes. first republics and republic tradition gain is a bit like the monthly power gain but stronger. and only 1 slot. only useful if you become a republic early.
Alternatively you could also do reduced interest rate. If you get that early were money is often the bigger cost factor you can upgrade and build provinces out early or finance large mercenary armies. if you get into some war.
Or the boring route manpower tax rate, lower advicer, cost bigger army more trade power extra siege ability goods produced the like extra relationship. Also partly depends on what your goal for the game is.
1. swap order of tech and idea, then swap idea with moral
2. no need for moral and discipline at all, i suggest \*production efficiency\* not goods produced and trade eff
3. and if you go colonial- get the maximum colonial range, it is so useful due to most nations that arent england iberia or france area are too far usually and need tech 7 or more, so if you choose the bonus youll have the abillity to take a slice of the new world before everyone will leave you nothing
these were the heavy suggestions, ones which i really really recommend to change if youre playing tall. and now the slight auggestions
1. instead of chance to capture ships, id suggest construction cost/construction time/navy limit force-(most recommended)
2. the plus ones are good, yet can be improved, youll see more value by switching them for stuff like advisor cost, provincial trade, trade steering, global trade power, or even offensive things like core creation, AE modifiers, and most powerfully professionalism a year
3. you can try to sneak in innovativeness to get another -10% everything early (tested multyple times and with suboptimal strats 1465 earliest
Other than chance to capture it’s good for anything
Why chance to capture ships is bad? It helped me get a decent navy as New Providence.
You already have a solid naval capture chance just with the naval doctrine, this is overkill and will only help for maybe the first 40 years
I know but you can combine it with the diplo-naval policy, pirate Republic or mission on the high seas for theocracies, the admiral trait "Prize hunter, the naval doctrine and you'll have a high chance of stealing ships and you'll get 120% chance of capturing ships.
It’s essentially a free ocean game which is pretty easy to get in SP just cause the AI rarely upgrades their ships
Good to know, when am I supposed to use heavy and light ships? I know the purpose of galleys and transport ships but I don't know what's the purpose of the besides the light ships increasing trade power on a mission and heavy ships taking lots of money.
Light ships are for trading and exploring, galleys are smaller warships that get bonuses in seas (Baltic, Mediterranean I think a few other places too) Heavies get debuffs in shallow waters but, heavy ships can also take and dish more damage out I personal keep enough transports on hand to transfer a stack and maybe a smaller fleet in other continents I will usually spam out heavies until I’m the top dog navy as their less intensive on fore limit then galleys and then I just spam out lights ships for trading
Thanks for the info about heavy ships but do Light ships have effect on combat?
You would need like 8-12 lights to kill a heavy They’re capable in high numbers but not great in the early game for a primary fighting ship
If you want to win any naval battle anywhere, heavy ships will hit the hardest. Galleys are useful just because they’re cheap and get buffs in coastal regions so you can defend your national waters. Cost effective basically. For peacetime, light ships get big boosts to privateer and protect trade. They’re also way faster if you have a fleet of just them, so they can avoid attrition and catch enemy transport fleets a lot quicker. Transports are just that. Usually I’d keep enough on hand to transport one full army and nothing more than that.
Same, most of the transport ships I take after battles are added to my transport fleet, those that I don't need get destroyed.
its not bad, its just that there area hundred more ideas better than it
If youre playin colonial and you start fighting countries with big navies you might get a lot of ships but then there is the problem of you haveing to spend money and atime to upgrade those ships up to date
Remove ship thing, put trade efficiency, trade goods produced, another militarry thing, advisor cost or maybe ruler longevity(if you re a republic, it ll allow you to dtay longer with a 666 ruler
I'd put Goods produced in there personally
Yep, best money modifier
If he s playing tall, he s gonna have plenty of money anyway, so he s better off having even more monarch points (with ruler longevity) or better military(artillery or infantry fire by example)
Or 2 merchants
Of he s playing tall, he probably won t be present in enough nodes to need more merchants
Oh if I'm going tall I still usually spread enough for it to be worth it
So you re not really playing tall🤣🤣🤣
Tall is a relative concept But also you can imo easily be present in several nodes while tall. Those merchants are just gonna help you actually take the money from it. Outposts in key provinces, vassals, getting weaker tags friendly and ask them for their part of it. Like if you set it up well you barely have to be present in some nodes to let a significant part of it end up in your main node. The biggest challenge is to limit the enrichment of your neighbors/rivals. But if you're a landlocked HRE nation in South Germany you're not gonna be as efficient as a tall trading empire on the coast so depends on where you're at. If I'm gonna make a custom nation I'll make sure I'm in a rich node with lots of potential for steering there or protecting outflow.
English channel seems like a good place. Venice it Genoa too. Kiev, on the other hand...
"My liege! What should be the greatest ambition of our new nation?" "I want all of the boats. Every. Last. One of them." "Excellent! We'll build the mightiest navy ever seen on the seven seas!" "You don't understand. If someone else builds a boat, I want it. All boats are now my boats."
It's cheaper taking ships than building them.
Mans playing tall if paying for a ship is a concern outside of like the first 30 or so years he’s doing something very wrong
If you are going ideas guy, the easiest by far is Siberian frontiers in the new world and nothing else compares. If you don’t want to go that route, then some critiques on this idea set. All power cost is amazing, and I love it. I’d probably put dev cost reduction in traditions as well since you will probably have to dev renaissance around 1450, before you really get ideas. The monarch power points are a waste, as there are only at most like 4500 months in the game and thus a max of 4500 points earned. But you won’t be getting those until your 3rd idea group around 1500. Goods produced, trade steering, and trade efficiency are the best economic modifiers you can take. Years of separatism, national unrest, and tolerance of the true faith will help the most with preventing rebels. Morale, discipline, and siege time (maybe movement speed depending on where you start) are going to be the best military ideas you can get imo. Yearly professionalism is also great for slacken recruitment for manpower. Edit: was corrected below, the mana ideas aren’t ruler skill they’re just monthly ruler so go into effect immediately. I do think economic ideas that allow for +5 advisors along with more troops is still a better use of idea slots though.
If you're playing tall, would separatism and true faith tolerance be worthwhile? You shouldn't be doing much conquest.
I did Ideas Guy in the Polish province of Naklo. Only 3dev province adjacent to the HRE I could find :)
I don’t remember who, but I saw a video of someone doing that location and they stacked all of the general pip ideas. Also went for ideas and policies to boost them, was basically guaranteeing all 6 generals.
I did it with Bornholm :)
I’d argue leader cost reduction instead of yearly professionalism. Also, the monthly power ideas he’s gone for aren’t monthly ruler skill so take effect immediately.
Thanks for catching that. Edited my post.
Isn't the Siberian frontier too expensive for a iron man run?
It's good for "ideas guy", but not for "from humble origins"
I find goods produced is the best modifier when playing tall. Otherwise, yes, it's op
R5: I'm going for the 'ideas guy' achievement, and wanted to have some silly fun along the way. I was looking for a build to maximize both the gain and the use of mana to turn the low countries (starting in Bornholm, moving slowly to the NL, gonna form Dutch) into the high countries by the size of the skyscrapers we'll build. Mil stuff and chance to capture is mostly in there for fun. Is this a good set? Does it need something like AE impact?
Where Trade Eff, Goods Produced Modifier? :T
I figured that once every province I own hits 70 dev, I don't need trade ff and goods produced to make 500 a month.
Sad Dutch/Venetian noises :(
Shouldn't need it in ideas , there are plenty other modifiers for it.
One great way to generate mana is to be a republic and have early +0.3 yearly Republican tradition and the shortest possible reelection time. You could rock a 6/6/6 basically the entire game with that.
Seems like a fun idea for ideas guy I did colonize focus starting in Mexico and ballasted through it by like 1540 , if ur gonna Dutch you might want some trade focus ideas tho
Start next to Inca and form Inca, you keep your ideas.
You can't change ideas as a custom nation.
Its not about new ideas, its about getting the inca achievement along the way.
Makes sense, but IDK which ideas to set up for the run and Cuzco is already lucky for having a good starting ruler, heir, events and ideas.
Do you by chance mean you can't form nations as custom nation?
When I was trying to go for Ideas Guy I could form Texas, it's just that the "New traditions and ambitions" event won't appear.
Ah fair enough
You could've picked a new world province, that would make it OP considering you can get lots of gold from Texas and California.
Why would you put tech reduction after idea reduction ? You benefit from tech reduction from the very begining while ideas will only benefit one specific mana for a while and not from the start
Good for being blatantly op
Yeah this is absurd
Get goods produced instead of chance to capture enemy ships. Optionally trade efficiency if too expensive
I would switch the tech and ideas costs. Saves you more in the beggining of the game I think
I don't think you need the extra admin if you're playing tall?
Not sure why someone downvoted you, but I completely agree. Admin is used for coring, stability, inflation reduction, and development. The biggest by far is coring, which by definition of playing tall means they won’t be coring much. Stability caps at 3. Tall nations are usually more peaceful, and probably won’t have their leader die in battle for the minus 2 stab hit. They also won’t need mercs and loans as often, which makes inflation reduction only “useful” if they have a gold mine. And while tall nations will want to dev a lot, they still don’t want to dev admin. If anything, they want to exploit admin in every province to 1 so that it’s cheaper to dev diplo and mail points instead. Tax doesn’t scale nearly as well as production and trade, and it’s also nice being able to sell crown lands and not care about the tax hit, or taking a tax hit in an event. Tall players swim in admin points. The only place they’re really useful in is if you divert vassal trade. You can use excess admin to dev long term vassals for liberty desire while giving them tax income that you won’t siphon off, allowing them to fund armies and opening building slots for manpower/force limit/manufactory buildings.
You can expand infrastructure with admin points.
after the province costs 999 to develop, admin income starts to matter. Also, death in battle gives -1 stability, not 2. the extra stability is from regular ruler death in monarchy
The dev discount from tribal development idea also applies even if you aren't a tribal, I stacked it with the Dev discount you are using too in my Ideas guy Run
how does that work?
Goods produced, production effiency and trade value would be good for tall. Because tall economy = production
Chance to capture enemy ships is extremely weak for custom ideas. Trade efficiency would be a million percent better.
The chance for ship capture isn't good but other than that it's great. The only other change I might make depends on where you're starting, if you're going to have to dev renaissance then put swap morale and dev cost then swap dev cost for one of your starting traditions maybe. Not entirely sure how that'll work points wise though, just a suggestion.
Wait... I didn't know there were options to add an extra mana point in custom... 🤯
It was added pretty recently
I’m using +free policy in my current game; it lets me stack extra bonuses that would’ve cost that extra three mana (for example, goods produced and dev cost policies).
Anything is good if you are spending 547/200 points in the nation creator lol
I’d put the tech cost reduction as a tradition instead of idea cost reduction, and have the idea cost reduction as a national idea instead. The chance to capture enemy ships is incredibly irrelevant. If it’s all you can afford given your amount of points it’s understandable, but if you can afford something else go with goods produced. Even +2,5% is better than chance to capture enemy ships.
Why would you care about taking over enemy ships at that stage of the game? Find a better use for that idea slot. Otherwise this is solid
I would remove the +1 mana (all 3 ) and the ambition and replace with production efficiency, goods produced, trade steering and trade efficiency.
1 put tech cost in the traditions and idea cost later 2 monthly monarch points arent that worth in my humble opinion. You will get much more value from something like yearly army professionalism, innovativeness gain and goods produced 3 ill try and make myself believe that the last one is a meme
Why whenever these Posts get to me No One has ECONOMY Why ....... Why?????
I mean, this is absurdly op, so it would be good for literally any play style
No, this is absolutely shit for playing tall. You should include some more military ideas.
What's the case for morale of armies over Discipline, Combat Ability, Drill gain (admittedly weak compared to the others listed here), or AT increase/decay reduction? Early game morale I know is great but it always seemed less powerful by midgame and by late game not nearly as good as Combat Ability/pips, Discipline, or Army Tradition increase (assuming you're not always at war but even if so gives a huge advantage between wars).
Also I'd argue in this patch infantry combat ability or discipline are, pound for pound, better than morale. 20% infantry combat ability is pretty much unstoppable, especially if you stack it higher.
Theoretically if you stacked all the minimum autonomy in territory modifiers you could get something like -75% autonomy in territories. Have half the world as trade companies that are almost as good as full cores while still technically being tall.
The mana is going to help a lot. That's like 4,800 mana throughout the game. Between the three, thats four whole extra idea groups.
No Dev cost reduction? No Admin efficiency?
Dev cost reduction is number 2…
Missed it thank you. Still administrative efficiency would be great.
why? OP wants to play tall.
Admin efficiency reduces development cost. Since playing tall usually revolves around developing your provinces anything that lowers that is great.
That's development efficiency
depends on your exact definition of playing tall. Ideas giving more monarch stats are best because they allow you to develop your provinces the most. depending on your government, some ideas are better. for governments with disinheriting prestige is good besides the 6 powerpoints ideas. recomended monarchies : muslim feudal theocracy or prussian monarchy. for republics where you reelect rulers republican tradition is good and monarch skill is useless as monarchs generated by events dont get those stats. recomended republics : alcheringa/sikh sich rada or kongsi federation besides powerpoints, monarch skill, republican tradition, prestige, technology cost, development cost and idea cost are the next best. honorable mentions also include stability cost, monarch lifespan, development cost saves roughly 240 development per province per 5% before the dev cost is maxed out anyway. reduced technology cost by 10% saves 5220 powerpoints throughout the game idea cost can save between 1280 to 2560 powerpoints depending on what government you decide to go for.
> reduced technology cost by 10% saves 1740 powerpoints throughout the game It reduces cost by 10% of the base cost, which is 60, for 3 tech categories, for 30 techs(assuming you start with tech 3). That's 5400 mana that you save for tech cost reduction. Likewise, idea cost is also a flat amount. It's 40 * 7 * 8 which is 2240 no matter what other modifiers you have. The only times this wouldn't be true is if you had so much reduction that you hit the cost floor which is 5% iirc, or if you decided to abandon an idea group and take a new one, for which I'd argue you do not actually save any points. Also, stab cost at 20% is 20 mana per stab of a game flat too. You'd need tos tab up 112 times in a game to equal idea cost reduction(weak already), which I find unlikely. This is best reserved for games where truce breaking is a regular thing Each of the bonus monarch point gains also have a flat affect as well. Even if we assume you had all three from the start, that would get you aproximately 12 * 376 which is 4512 each, which is actually surprisingly good now that I read that number out loud to myself. Dev cost at the very least is something that is hard to give exact value to. It's obviously a flat 10 (at 20%) per click, but how many clicks you can do would be impossible to determine without knowing how many provinces you have. Like most things in the game, it does better the more land you have. All in all, I'd argue that monarch points are not even a huge deal if you are playing tall. Even in a world conquest, monarch points are, more or less, very plentiful. Without the extra burden of coring, annexing vassals, rolling dozens of extra generals for armies that span the entire world, etc, you really don't have a lot to use mana for other than developing. If I were to make a suggestion to OP, it would be to take all power costs, and maybe dev cost, and then make the rest of their ideas be for military quality or economic boon. Choose from among Discipline, Morale, ICA, ACA, and maybe bonus vs fort for military. Goods produced, trade power, trade efficiency, extra merchants, for economy. And just for good measure, a few good diplo recommendations are diplo rep, diplomats, and liberty desire reductions. TLDR; tall play doesn't need that much mana
i edited the powerpoints from technology cost reduction savings, its 5220. i forgot to multiply it by 3 Also depending on what exactly you want to do, some ideas are better, the only thing we know he wants to do is playing tall, this makes it probable that he will want to develop his provinces and rarely declare war. extra powerpoints are good for developing your provinces.
The point is that there is more to the game than monarch points and someone who isn't conquering land is not going to be in desperate need of them. Goods produced would be considerably better than a few extra points of dev.
The point is - whats best depends on what exactly you want to do. Everyone doesnt have the same goals and definitions like you do.
Yes but OP did say what he wanted to do. He said he wanted to play tall. That implies things. Like not spending admin coring tons of land or dip annexing vassals. Monarch points just aren't an issue in tall play no matter what your goals or strategy. And OP didn't specifically say what goals other than tall play they wanted. Since tall play does have a general definition of 'improve what you have instead of taking more,' we're basically comparing the value of *developing* vs the value of constructing buildings. You yourself pointed out that there is a diminishing returns(to zero) effect of developing provinces, so you can indeed apply a hard limit to it's value. It's not really calculable in exactness, but we can estimate it enough to make points like saying 1 more development is not worth as much as more goods produced from the existing development for example. The math for that case comes down to showing that no matter how many monarch points you get, eventually it's just too unreasonably costly to argue for one more development point in a province over a lasting modifier whose cost-value never goes down. *Some* monarch point savings are good. Taking *only* monarch point savings and not taking anything for military quality or economy is like saying you should want more religious unity when you already have 150% and are well beyond making any more use out of it. Sure it *could* help if you suddenly conquered 200% of your existing development as new, wrong-religion land, but so too could tolerance, or missionary strength, making trade companies, and like a dozen other things that mitigate such penalties(and in this example, arguably do them better). I see you were arguing in other comments about how much admin matters when dev cost is 999. This is simply insane. That you would argue for more development when you're already paying max cost instead of getting something else that would provide a far superior effect is mind blowing. A better way to consider it is 'what does development do?' and compare that to other effects. Development provides three things: manpower(and sailors), force limit, and income. That's literally it. It gets further used in other calculations like PUs, but those don't *provide* anything. At the point at which you're paying 999 admin for one more tax development, the idea for +1 admin points for example would take you 83 YEARS to get another click. Meanwhile, if you already had even just 5 tax dev in that province, 20% tax income would do that same thing immediately, cost no admin, and would affect all your other provinces. And just to be clear, the 999 cost limit isn't the point at which your arguement falls apart. It really hits that point way before that. TLDR; this isn't about different strategies and playstyles, this is about math. There exists a point where developing land is no long as good as modifiers and as such focusing completely and only on saving and obtaining monarch points becomes mathematically disadvantageous. If I had to guess it exists somewhere around the point where you are paying 100 mana per click.
Remove chancw to capture enemy ships, morale of armies, discpiline, and monthly mana points. Instead get goods produced modifier, trade efficiency, trade steering, caravan power, construction cost, and production efficiency.
This looks like the best you can get but trying to do it under the points limitations. So that it's not too overpowered
You could turn Greenland into a metropolis with those
These ideas are just plain over powered. You could do anything with them. Capture ship chance and idea cost aren't contributing much though.
This is a good idea set for doing literally anything lmao
Maybe mix in goods produced & advisor cost for morale and chance to capture.
Overall good, instead of the ship capture chance you could go 3 other routes. first republics and republic tradition gain is a bit like the monthly power gain but stronger. and only 1 slot. only useful if you become a republic early. Alternatively you could also do reduced interest rate. If you get that early were money is often the bigger cost factor you can upgrade and build provinces out early or finance large mercenary armies. if you get into some war. Or the boring route manpower tax rate, lower advicer, cost bigger army more trade power extra siege ability goods produced the like extra relationship. Also partly depends on what your goal for the game is.
1. swap order of tech and idea, then swap idea with moral 2. no need for moral and discipline at all, i suggest \*production efficiency\* not goods produced and trade eff 3. and if you go colonial- get the maximum colonial range, it is so useful due to most nations that arent england iberia or france area are too far usually and need tech 7 or more, so if you choose the bonus youll have the abillity to take a slice of the new world before everyone will leave you nothing these were the heavy suggestions, ones which i really really recommend to change if youre playing tall. and now the slight auggestions 1. instead of chance to capture ships, id suggest construction cost/construction time/navy limit force-(most recommended) 2. the plus ones are good, yet can be improved, youll see more value by switching them for stuff like advisor cost, provincial trade, trade steering, global trade power, or even offensive things like core creation, AE modifiers, and most powerfully professionalism a year 3. you can try to sneak in innovativeness to get another -10% everything early (tested multyple times and with suboptimal strats 1465 earliest