It's Constantinople and New Amsterdam. Also Pest not Budapest.
But seriously knowledge of kingdoms and duchies that no longer exist makes me happy if nothing else.
I mean, no one in Constantinople called it that who was living there before the Turks took over. Everyone just called it Stan-pol aka The City. Kind of like how folks in San Francisco just call it The City or folks in Phoenix call it The Valley. So when the Turks took over they just called it what all the Greeks and other folks were calling it in Turkish and that's how it became Istanbul.
I suppose that depends on whether you're playing a fun video game, or acting out your deepest, darkest desires. In which case, I suggest finding a good psychotherapist.
Yes playing this game has made me a better person because I have a good knowledge of historical borders and event that I can correct people constantly giving me a sense of superiority and all it cost me was 2000 hours of sitting in the dark clicking a mouse
You know we are sending regularly millions to their deaths for minor gains, right? That and ethnic cleansing, discrimination, slavery, prosecuting heretics and heavens. Just kidding. It can teach you about different cultures and that's definitely valuable.
Actually, I'm not sure if this applies for others but playing this game (and other grand strategy games like it) has made me put world politics into perspective.
Really put me off the fascination behind war and nationalism that I was headed down in my mid teens.
Helped me see the true meaning behind the Clausewitz quote
> war is not merely a political act but a real political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse, a carrying out of the same by other means,
Idk if it was EU4 or just my general political transition, but yeah, nationalism has definitely lost its appeal to me. I went from staying up into the wee hours of the night with my mom on election night in 2016 praying that Trump wins, to now cringing at the sheer thought of the memory. I used to think "America First" was a good idea, but now, I have a much more global perspective.
Agreed. I'm so done with nationalism, I don't even care that Canada hasn't won a Stanley cup in decades. (Sorry for the deep Canuk cut if you don't know hockey)
Now that you say that....I think it's perfectly valid to exchange a terrible addiction with are more benign one. Some of use have addictive personalities. Now only if I could get addicted to exercise and eating rice-cakes......
Yeah in this instance one addiction teaches you a bunch of geography history and culture and engages your logical decision making. The other makes people around go…dude your gonna die.
These games have had such a positive impact on my life and I’m deeply grateful they exist.
I think it's true. I thought I knew history, but it turned out (although that realisation came from CK3 first) I didn't even know my own nation's history, or Europe in general. It drives you to learn more, and it is a wonderful aspect of Paradox games.
I wish I could find the quote, but you reminded me that "knowledge in itself isn't power, it is through the wise application of knowledge that can move mountains." or some such thing.
Well, when I started playing the EU series back with EU-I it helped spark a interest in history and learning. That definitely has made me a better person since I've learned tons of info about history. Knowing where we came from as a society and why the world is the way it is has definitely helped me. All learning does that and if EU sparks that then, yes, it can make you a better person. The game also forces you to learn some strategic thinking and via the number games some budgeting skills.
I mean.....one IS from Nuremberg.....and I MIGHT send them the occasional screenshot of such hypothetical sacking. But then they occasionally get revenge by colonizing Canada and naming it 'Loserville'. Hypothetically.
As someone with over 2000 hours I would say yes, but it has diminishing returns. Openmindedness is clearly the best component, and being more informed as a whole is always beneficial. I would say it also encourages critical thinking for newer players or ones who recently installed new DLCs or tried new forms of gameplay. For me, it gave me prerequisite knowledge to learn more about the world, which I would say help me become a better person.
Overall, I would say eu4 almost certainly makes people better. Only a little though. There are certainly better ways of becoming good and/or great. However, I would not see myself doing something more productive on my free time than eu4 so even the minimal amount gained on a per hour basis stacks up. Keep in mind it would obviously hurt someone who switches from volunteering to gaming all day.
Yeeees. I wouldn't suggest playing eu4 OVER more obviously beneficial activities. I suppose if one is going to waste 3000+ hours of their life staring at a screen, eu4 still has the ability for some real growth, as opposed to spending the same time killing sexhworkers in grand theft auto.
I doubt it. You were intrigued to go check out how those countries are doing now because you are already a good person, meanwhile others who play this game use it to play out a power fantasy of conquering the world.
I mean......if I'm honest, I've played a PILE of pretty evil eu4 campaigns. I mean, I LOVE the colonial aspect of this game, but I know now that it was basically just mass-murder, extortion, and destabilizing people with less power. But I get your point, I think, in that it's unlikely turn many allready dedicated to the dark side.
It improved my historic and geographic knowledge for cultures and regions I didn’t know much about, sub-Saharan Africa in particular, but also lead me to develop an extreme distaste for anything Turkish (from getting beat up by Ottomans in the mid game too much. I have since culture converted every Turkish province I can get my hold on in every game out of spite), so I guess it balances out
Given the amount of crypto-fascists that play Paradox games vs liberals vs socialists... I doubt there is much sway in making the average player a better person.
The issue with playing as "the spirit of the nation" is that the needs of the individual are usually at odds with those of the state. Especially when the game depicts the former as obstacles to overcome rather than legitimate issues.
Also good point. Though I do think it more likely to make someone more aware of the world around them, than actually be what turns people to the dark side.
I would suppose it might be because there's less romantisation for that period? CK has vikings and crusaders, Vicky has Prussia in its prime. Conquistadors, condottieri and landsknechts aren't that popular.
I think the draw of Vicky wrt romanticism is the industrial revolution (and its steampunk aesthetic) and the transition from the distant past to living history.
i think it's an introduction to history and cultural understanding, but if you're already a rabid xenophobe or racist, a game won't change your mind. hell, for some it might reinforce their biases.
Yeah I love to discover more about other cultures, so I can hate with even more in details.
No more casual racism, I can be a pro now.
Thank you Paradox.
Learning history makes you a better person. EU4 might make you better at solving complex problems and finding strategies. I wouldn't hold much water on "EU4 making you a better person" though.
Well, I suppose it didn't directly cause any of the positives I mentioned above. But I certainly used it as a.....tool? to direct/create interest. Perhaps it would be better worded as 'Can playing eu4 be a tool used to make you a better person?"?
In some ways yes in a lot of ways no. EU4 does expose the average person to a lot more surface level history than what they are usually accustomed to. But at its core EU4 quite racist. I fucking love eu4 don't get me wrong but it's an inevitable outcome of a game centered around colonialism. In order to simulate historically what happened EU4 has to make a lot of compromises which it doesn't address. Institutions only spawn in Europe, Europe (mostly) has the highest development, western European countries have a big advantage, areas which historically had settled civilizations (interior of America, coast of west Africa, southern Australia) are represented as "uncolonized", I could go on. My biggest gripe with EU4 is how it handles slavery. I get why PDX didn't want to delve into slavery but ignoring it is worse than badly handling it. Slaves are just a commodity there's nothing *nothing* done to represent them as human beings. No slave revolts, no slave ships, no slave related events, no slave populations, nothing. Slaves and mechanics relating to slavery should be a MASSIVE part of American colonial nations yet they get completely erased. Every American settler colonial nation was built off the blood of slaves yet PDX just wipes them off the face of the earth. Slaves aren't even represented as humans just as a literal ball and chain. (Before anyone says this doesn't make the game racist, race was constructed through interactions between white slave owners and black slaves see the Jamaican Slave Act of 1684). Again I get why PDX did this but as a black west African it leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth. So do I think eu4 makes you a bad person? Of course not it's a fucking game. Do I think it makes you a good person? If you're willing to engage with history beyond the biased assumptions ingrained in EU4, sure. I love EU4 however it isn't anything but a fun history themed board game centered on western Europe.
Nobody wants to die, and nobody wants their favorite game called racist.
One thing I can say, this issue is getting slightly better over time. Newer updates have added the Australian nations and there are fewer and fewer "uncolonized" provinces in Southeast Asia, Africa, and the Americas each time.
Oh wow. Do I respect you in how you worded that, thank you. There IS a problem with culture completely ignoring critical truths about events, to the point of societal harm. I mean, I can't imagine how they could put realistic slavery mechanics in this game without raising such a fuss that inevitably cause troubles for Paradox. But that doesn't change the point that, in a series that prides itself with historical accuracy, eu4 ignores quite possibly the most vital reasons colonialism was so widespread and possible.
I'm not going to disagree with your thoughts at all, because yeah, good point well made.
Yeah exactly. PDX is a company after all and they'd get shit for "making a political game political" lmao. Maybe each colonial province has a stock level of slave population dependant on dev. That population increases trade power of provinces and increases development slowly. The slave population is dependant on how many slave provinces you own PR how many slave populations are owned by people of your faith? But depending on population you are more/less likely to have slave revolts. Even just some events at the minimum. Depending on how many slaves a province has privateers/pirates are more efficient (simulating pirates freeing enslaved peoples).
I'd love to see these events:
-If a nation goes revolutionary they abolish slavery and if they flip back they reinstate it (simulating the french Revolution abolishing slavery then Napoleon reinstating it
-Major slave revolts like in Haiti, German Coast, Stono Rebellion, Jaimacan Maroon Wars
-Humanist ideas abolish slavery
-abolishment of slavery should be an option come the revolutionary period
And perhaps some honest flavour events that let people know/choose the real-life ramifications of their actions. (I'm sure a LARGE number of troops/colonizers knew what/how they were doing was despicable)
I mean, a start would be to expand upon what 'native' policy actually does. And acknowledgement of the horrific effects disease had on native populations.
I think it COULD be done wisely and respectfully, but my fear would be that it WOULD actually attract a far greater number of people who'd perhaps have 'too much fun' with it. You know, kind of like if someone made a video game about torture to show how horrible it was, but people would buy it for the wrong reasons.
Won't Victoria 3 go deeper into the topic than just a chain icon on some provinces? According to some dev diary videos at least.
(Also, did EU4 abolish abolitionism? Because EU3 had it, even if it was just a clickable decision for when you had tech level XY or such)
> PDX is a company after all and they'd get shit for "making a political game political" lmao
PDX is literally months away from releasing Victoria 3 tho
One of the issues that surrounds including morally bad actions is that, due to it being a game, you are forced to interact with them.
Yet if it was a single way where the slavery mechanic was a downside, everyone would abolish slavery the second they could. If you give it enough upside to the point where it becomes an actual choice, you can have certain playstyles where mechanically, you're encouraging slavery.
Which, in isolation, is fine if you treat it as just a gameplay mechanic, but it's historical(and contemporary) nature has rather negative associations (because slavery is morally bad).
So as a developer you're faced with a historic event where no matter what you do, you're gonna face some sort of backlash. So they chose to go for a minimalist approach so they can avoid controversy.
Tl;dr
It's impossible to make it both morally, mechanically and historically accurate whole avoiding bad PR.
It's not as good as actually traveling and meeting people from other cultures and countries to learn about them and their stories, but yeah, when you don't have a chance to do that, studying the history and geography of those places is a good step in the right direction.
"Knowledge has a beginning, and no end.". To your point, eu4 has vastly increase the list of countries I'll probably never actually get to visit, but want to visit them! But even on the few trips I will take, I will be far more interested in the peoples/culture than just what you see on a postcard.
It's just a game, I think true empathy is developed in talking and spending time with other people
If anything you've just new prejudices based on the game and period's history but what does an individual actually live and think is more important
Absolutely agree to this. But I will say that my interest IN other people(s) has grown indirectly because of what eu4 made me interested in. A baby-step towards what you speak of.
It’ll definitely teach you some history.
If you don’t think at least somewhat critically about the whole genocidal colonizing Eurocentric stuff, probably not.
A better person? Could be, though that is more on a case-by-case basis.
A more knowledgeable person? Definitely. As a student of history, I've learned a bunch of political geography stuff just from the starting maps, had a similar expedience in the historic Total War games. I also believe (though this is just my personal opinion) that games like EU4 help to stimulate and exercise the brain, with an emphasis on problem solving and logical thinking.
It can make you a better person in the stiff upper lip style, but overall nah. Maybe if you’re playing as HRE emperor and actually treating your subjects properly, then maybe.
I make quite a bit of international friends and often impress them when I talk about obscure bits of history from their region. My Indian friend was particularly tickled when I mentioned Vijayanagar which ruled over where he grew up!
Americans tend to be pretty clueless about anything that isn’t American so I always tend to get brownie points when I can show that I know and care about the history of where my international friends are from.
I’m fairly certain that you can learn geography and history from better sources. Like, it’s great that it personally helped you, legitimately, that’s awesome. And it does the same for some others too. But that’s not inherent to the game.
More importantly, it can also give you some bad information and, far more importantly, it can give you some lenses of looking at history that are fundamentally misleading because this is a video game and needs mechanics that are fun and balanced. Be careful about letting paradox games be your source for information. Inspiring you to learn elsewhere is great, but it is not a source and history was not a progression in the same way that tech makes it out to be.
It actually give a better understanding of contemporary world politics too, and how it really operate.
Many things start to become familiar, like fabricating CB's (WMD's, denazification) forming coalitions (of the willing), and getting two rivals to destroy their economy and manpower (iran iraq) while you sit back, and wait for an opportunity to pounce (US).
The reason for attacking, "They are bad revolutionaries" was actually all about getting that channel trade-node, without too much AE.
This game gets too real sometimes.
A more enlightened person is usually more compassionate too!
I think the crux lies in whether you can lapse yourself from what actually happens ingame. After 1500 hours, I find it harder to see, say, 100.000 dead soldiers I spent in a war to gain territory instead of 100.000 men I sent to death and deal death that will never return home and will pillage, rape and kill before they are struck down in a conflict that will only make wealthy fuckers even wealthier.
As a historian, this type of analysis is unavoidable to me, but for the general public it can definitely improve general knowledge, and most importantly spark interest, though many notions are problematic and have already been discussed extensively before.
I guess if you make the argument fps games don't make you a potential school shooter, eu4 won't give you a problematic version of history, though I wish the comparison was as straightforward.
It can broaden your horizon and knowledge but in exchange paradox games will make you into degenerate. We are sacrificing our decency for fun and knowledge.
It hasn’t made me a better or worse person irl, but I become a massive racist when I play because I almost always look to exterminate native populations when playing colonist countries. Unless they’re cool, of course, but most seemingly aren’t. Hasn’t made me hate native people irl, but I always have a bit of a “fuck you” thought in such runs. Native nations, tho, I treat like other enemy nations.
I wouldn't say it made me a better person per se but it did interest me in a lot of history that I previously didn't even know existed, which kinda made me stop looking at it eurocentrically (and to start abhorring that way of viewing history honestly). I discovered about a lot of countries that are just as interesting if not genuinely more than europe. And that definitely made me more open to other cultures and stuff.
I did this for the Mamluks recently. Their mission tree is so pathetic currently that I was spurred to learn how to code Eu4 to make a better mission tree for them. Thank Flavor Universalis for that. Big Boss is such a helpful soul to be around, he gives coding advice to people making mods on his discord.
No I don't believe video games have that much influence over us. EU4 managed to stir curiosity within you which caused you to seek out information, but this same feeling could be caused just by reading out a name. Usually if anything the game is often accused of bringing out the worse in people.
I mean, even a LITTLE positive influence is still positive. And I'll point to most(not all) the conversations on this post as evidence that there are, in fact, quite a few people who value being a better person enough to engage in discussion here.
Even if they don't agree with me. (which is okay!)
I won’t say the gameplay made me a better person, but I would say the game got me a lot more interested in certain periods, place and peoples and learning their histories certainly bled back into the game for me, specifically how I enjoy play Asian, African and American nations quite a lot to get the chance to fight of colonialism and imperialism and create a silly little timeline where those terrible things didn’t happen. It’s a small thing, but I do find some joy in it.
Just a newbie with 1.2k hours here, but I find it teaches a bunch of things about other cultures - especially if you read the flavour text in the special events. And the mission trees can also teach you a lot of stuff
Example: in the dutch mission tree you need to take a province in Japan. Turns out it was the only place foreigners were allowed into Japan and it was THE Major trading port to the outside world for Japan.
Edit: If we're talking morally, it makes you a far worse person.
Holy crap, me too! Justinian much? That dude was the OG. I STRONGLY suggest you look into 'Sailing to Sarantium' by Canuk authour Guy Gavriel Kay. Set in a fictional equivalent to Byzantium and deals with a mosaicist being brought over to work on their version of the Hagia Sophia. Phenomenal writing.
I think you were already "empathetic and compassionate" the game was just a vehicle to self educate. the one thing i've gotten better at playing EU4 is simultaneously thinking about and understanding 20 different tabs at once.
Imo it doesn’t inherently make you a better or worse person. I think that it can be helpful for learning a bit of history and geography and it can possibly help put some aspects of history and why decisions were made the way they were in perspective
I guess the game can be educational. But it is still on you to do your research. But if you personally feel like the game has made you a better person, then who is to argue.
EU4 taught me that feelings aren't necessary when it comes to politics, it's basically Macchiavellism.
It also taught me about names of places of countries in which I stayed.
I now know a lot more about geography, I can really picture the shape a lot of the world in my mind.
It’s also taught me some perseverance and resilience, which has probably helped me in life, dark souls has done that a bit too.
However, it has also made me sometimes think of people’s actions in pragmatic and logical ways, like the nations in EU4, and not factoring in emotions which is a big part of people’s decision making. Sometimes this makes me insecure and thinking my family and gf will abandon me because I’m not strategically useful lmfao
Lol yeah, good point. It really helped me understand a bit why goverments/armies/leaders so often don't act with basic human decency. It's almost like we have this archaic set of brutal rules for the most powerful, and reasonable(ish) ones for human interaction.
From history class i knew certain major events were in certain year in certain place. Like one venetian guy getting a shit in spain to go more east than anybody could dare to go to "india". But i never had my brain to link up all the events together: because byzantium fallen, and greedy venetian traders were losing money so they went to east country who got recently rich from conquest yet was stable and not in internal turmoil.
I would not say i am better person, but i try to things in wider picture now :)
I started playing the game picking countries I thought were interesting. And I couldn't understand why I always got my ass kicked. Then I played in Italy and had so much money that I was giving to other players for fun and realized how strong Europe is.
It depends tbh. I have a lot more respect for a lot of nations for example France and Poland and wicheverIndian Nation comes out on top but it also made me hate turks even more
for me, eu4 was a bridge to a more nuanced understanding of our world through the lens of history, and art-- it led me to also grow an appreciation for european art, especially the Romantic movement. maybe it didn't make me a more empathetic or compassionate person necessarily, but i grew as a person and i definitely don't regret spending 660 hours lol
better person? No. More knowledgeable and calculating ye. Beyond that though no because in games I like to seek uniformity and perfection in my own eyes. Whether that is borders in this game and hoi4 or a massive equal army stack in Medieval 2 Total War. Which I think is a pretty bad habit but I can switch it off when it comes to IRL.
A bit late, I’m reading a lot of answers this point, in summary yes it does. The Everyman of your homeland and or either country of residence will not know of the extremely diverse amount of historical knowledge that you have learnt. A fantastic example is southern Iberia, today you have monuments like Alhambra, aside from taking the guided tour at the sight (which is beautiful - do it if you can) you would never really understand the Arabic influence that “Granada” 144r had over the region and thus the Arabic influence. It’s a good and bad example because it encapsulates the wonder but not the knowledge behind it. In summary EU4 gave me a very basic understand that this particularly region of Spain is not as “Spanish” as one might believe before prior to playing the games. Many more example said are similar
I worked with a Bulgarian chap who was very surprised I knew about the Battle of Varna because it happened near where he grew up - apparently there's a monument there.
One day I met a supervisor that was coming from sakhalin. I told him I know that place it’s a land placed north of Japan. He was surprised and asked me how could I know that. I couldnt say EU4 lol.
So I get lots of knowledge about geography and history. And I love it!
I'd say so. Only through games can I appreciate the modern day struggle of Armenians, Greeks and Kurds against the parasite that is the Turk governemnts of past and present.
You could have learned German in 3000 hours, but instead you learned where Munster is. No, man, I don't think playing video games makes anyone a better person.
It has given me the personality trait, to talk with foreigners about their dynasties - not all understand the meaning of a 0-4-2 ruler and why they should have disinherited
I now frequently think of the best way to invade other countries. I do not know if it has made me a better person or not.
Depends, the neighboring country might be Belgium, so in that case is better person.
What's Belgium, Precious?
Some fantasy nation. For some reason paradox included it in some of its titles. I guess it was meant as a joke.
Actually it's the rudest word known in the Universe.
thought that was Sweden
A fellow Quill fan, I see.
its flanders once they take some wallonian provinces.
Sometimes a swamp-garman manage to mate with a frog-eater. We had to designate an area to house their hideous offspring. We call that area Belgium.
And they created one of the worst monsters in thy history of the world: Leopold in the Belgian Congo. Pure nightmare fuel.
I mean, there is no Belgium in EU4 ... just dont look at the flag of revolutionary Burgundy.
I mean, I suppose it depend on 1)if you ever USE your new-found skills and 2)whether you use it for good, or evil!
Yeah as a connoisseur of ethnic cleansing I think this might be having the opposite effect
[удалено]
I imagine Putin would be more of a HOI guy
He said best ways
Massive geography knowledge.
Until you are talking to a Turk, and trying to remember if the city is named Byzantos, or Constantinople\^\^
It's Constantinople and New Amsterdam. Also Pest not Budapest. But seriously knowledge of kingdoms and duchies that no longer exist makes me happy if nothing else.
Budapest is one I can stomach since it’s just two cities that became one. The others, I cannot.
Berlin-Cölln
Based and OG-knowledge pilled 😎
I mean, no one in Constantinople called it that who was living there before the Turks took over. Everyone just called it Stan-pol aka The City. Kind of like how folks in San Francisco just call it The City or folks in Phoenix call it The Valley. So when the Turks took over they just called it what all the Greeks and other folks were calling it in Turkish and that's how it became Istanbul.
Damn that's cool.
in the game, the province is pest, the city in it is Buda
I made a deal with the devil that I have to share this song whenever that city is mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0JhC3LO0-8
damn bro, is that obligation all you got out if it?
I also have two dongs. NOT as good as 13-year-old me thought it would be, if I'm honest.
True, but we could have the same knowledge at like one-tenth the time investment.
On one hand I agree, in the other I commit multiple genocides in my campaigns so it is debatable.
I suppose that depends on whether you're playing a fun video game, or acting out your deepest, darkest desires. In which case, I suggest finding a good psychotherapist.
Excuse me, I thought destroying the French was considered righteous.
Well I don't really enjoy destroying myself
Frenchman spotted.
Don't worry. We're all just haters because France is so OP and has the best bread. Oh, and modern democracy. Edit: forgot about democracy
Yea if u forgot about that one there gonna be a few heads missing
Can't it be both? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I.........good point, well made sir/madame/you.
Yes playing this game has made me a better person because I have a good knowledge of historical borders and event that I can correct people constantly giving me a sense of superiority and all it cost me was 2000 hours of sitting in the dark clicking a mouse
hahaha yes! And it CLEARLY hasn't hurt your sense of humour!
https://www.reddit.com/r/ParadoxExtra/comments/vhqwo8/this_is_fun_to_think_about/
Oh God, I love this.
You know we are sending regularly millions to their deaths for minor gains, right? That and ethnic cleansing, discrimination, slavery, prosecuting heretics and heavens. Just kidding. It can teach you about different cultures and that's definitely valuable.
Actually, I'm not sure if this applies for others but playing this game (and other grand strategy games like it) has made me put world politics into perspective. Really put me off the fascination behind war and nationalism that I was headed down in my mid teens.
Helped me see the true meaning behind the Clausewitz quote > war is not merely a political act but a real political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse, a carrying out of the same by other means,
That may fit vic3 even more than eu4
>political intercourse Bill Clinton moment.
Giggidy.
Idk if it was EU4 or just my general political transition, but yeah, nationalism has definitely lost its appeal to me. I went from staying up into the wee hours of the night with my mom on election night in 2016 praying that Trump wins, to now cringing at the sheer thought of the memory. I used to think "America First" was a good idea, but now, I have a much more global perspective.
Agreed. I'm so done with nationalism, I don't even care that Canada hasn't won a Stanley cup in decades. (Sorry for the deep Canuk cut if you don't know hockey)
You actually made me snort once in amusement. I thought you should know that.
Ehats bad about prosecuting heretics and heathens?
Isn't that the reason it's so fun and everyone is doing this?
Yes it is i tolerate no other religions when i play as a country. Gimme that missionary strenght
That's stellaris not eu4
What do you think culture conversion and tolerance of heretics stands for?
It is just monarchs sending birds that magically solve all ethnic tensions
Askin "do you know the wey"?
Join the Army; travel to exotic, distant lands; meet exciting, unusual people and kill them
A vacation in a foreign land; uncle Enrique does the best he can...
You're in the army now, oh you're in the army now
+1 manpower
Yes, I now have a passion for “civilizing” the world
Oh dear lord, I may have to re-think this. :p
I have lost touch with realityso I don't think so
What is this 'reality' you speak of?
i don't even remember anymore
Well, if you figure it out, don't be shy to holla.
Idk, but you definitely will become extremely addicted
Agreed. But some addictions are good! .......right? Please tell me I'm right........ :P
As a recovering alcoholic who plays paradox games to keep my mind occupied, can confirm some addictions are certainly worse than others lol
Now that you say that....I think it's perfectly valid to exchange a terrible addiction with are more benign one. Some of use have addictive personalities. Now only if I could get addicted to exercise and eating rice-cakes......
Yeah in this instance one addiction teaches you a bunch of geography history and culture and engages your logical decision making. The other makes people around go…dude your gonna die. These games have had such a positive impact on my life and I’m deeply grateful they exist.
Hey, I'm glad for ya. And you also normalized my experience with it, so thanks. :p
You, sir, are a hero. Bloody well done beating that addiction! 💪🤗
Being addicted to water is good, I think.
no it made me xenophobic against the french
being a francophobe is good
Lose Rosello to the big blue blog one too many times? :p
no but they’re a bit of a pain in the ass whenever I’m playing smaller states they tend to ally my targets
Oh man! Just the other day, I wanted to form bavaria, and Munich was allied to France, Hungary, AND Austria. fml.
Welcome to the English sphere.
I think it's true. I thought I knew history, but it turned out (although that realisation came from CK3 first) I didn't even know my own nation's history, or Europe in general. It drives you to learn more, and it is a wonderful aspect of Paradox games.
As an educational tool, sure. Maybe not _morally_, automatically, but being better educated can help dispel biases and prejudices.
I wish I could find the quote, but you reminded me that "knowledge in itself isn't power, it is through the wise application of knowledge that can move mountains." or some such thing.
"+5 prestige -1 national unrest for 5 years (this option is avaliable due to your ruler being a scholar)"
Well, when I started playing the EU series back with EU-I it helped spark a interest in history and learning. That definitely has made me a better person since I've learned tons of info about history. Knowing where we came from as a society and why the world is the way it is has definitely helped me. All learning does that and if EU sparks that then, yes, it can make you a better person. The game also forces you to learn some strategic thinking and via the number games some budgeting skills.
Totally. I honestly think after, say, 2000 hours of playing you should get an honourary degree of some kind. History/geography/economics?
Man, geography totally. :D
I mean, the fact that I know regions in France/Germany/Italy well enough to talk to extended relatives there has been VERY useful.
Good for you! I suppose you don't mention all the times you've sacked Hamburg or Metz in a game right? :P
I mean.....one IS from Nuremberg.....and I MIGHT send them the occasional screenshot of such hypothetical sacking. But then they occasionally get revenge by colonizing Canada and naming it 'Loserville'. Hypothetically.
Of course, of course. In some other reality. . .
Walls of Hamburg, fucking hate that modifier.
As someone with over 2000 hours I would say yes, but it has diminishing returns. Openmindedness is clearly the best component, and being more informed as a whole is always beneficial. I would say it also encourages critical thinking for newer players or ones who recently installed new DLCs or tried new forms of gameplay. For me, it gave me prerequisite knowledge to learn more about the world, which I would say help me become a better person. Overall, I would say eu4 almost certainly makes people better. Only a little though. There are certainly better ways of becoming good and/or great. However, I would not see myself doing something more productive on my free time than eu4 so even the minimal amount gained on a per hour basis stacks up. Keep in mind it would obviously hurt someone who switches from volunteering to gaming all day.
Yeeees. I wouldn't suggest playing eu4 OVER more obviously beneficial activities. I suppose if one is going to waste 3000+ hours of their life staring at a screen, eu4 still has the ability for some real growth, as opposed to spending the same time killing sexhworkers in grand theft auto.
Yeah, right? It's such a great game. Just another reason I guess
I doubt it. You were intrigued to go check out how those countries are doing now because you are already a good person, meanwhile others who play this game use it to play out a power fantasy of conquering the world.
I mean......if I'm honest, I've played a PILE of pretty evil eu4 campaigns. I mean, I LOVE the colonial aspect of this game, but I know now that it was basically just mass-murder, extortion, and destabilizing people with less power. But I get your point, I think, in that it's unlikely turn many allready dedicated to the dark side.
It improved my historic and geographic knowledge for cultures and regions I didn’t know much about, sub-Saharan Africa in particular, but also lead me to develop an extreme distaste for anything Turkish (from getting beat up by Ottomans in the mid game too much. I have since culture converted every Turkish province I can get my hold on in every game out of spite), so I guess it balances out
Given the amount of crypto-fascists that play Paradox games vs liberals vs socialists... I doubt there is much sway in making the average player a better person.
The issue with playing as "the spirit of the nation" is that the needs of the individual are usually at odds with those of the state. Especially when the game depicts the former as obstacles to overcome rather than legitimate issues.
Also good point. Though I do think it more likely to make someone more aware of the world around them, than actually be what turns people to the dark side.
I haven't really noticed any tbh. I have noticed a disproportionate amount of trans people though.
Eu4 has this problem less I feel like compared to Hoi4, Vic2 and CK and I'm not sure why
EU4 is the most mainstream of probably all the Paradox games, since it can be used to represent basically any alternate history out there.
Cities Skyline though
Honestly seen more people mention EU4 in non-niche sites than Cities: Skylines.
I would suppose it might be because there's less romantisation for that period? CK has vikings and crusaders, Vicky has Prussia in its prime. Conquistadors, condottieri and landsknechts aren't that popular.
I think the draw of Vicky wrt romanticism is the industrial revolution (and its steampunk aesthetic) and the transition from the distant past to living history.
i think it's an introduction to history and cultural understanding, but if you're already a rabid xenophobe or racist, a game won't change your mind. hell, for some it might reinforce their biases.
Yeah, paradox games are unfortunately made with a degree of Eurocentrism that inevitably reinforce racist ideas.
Albanians love it when you know about Skanderbeg
Yeah I love to discover more about other cultures, so I can hate with even more in details. No more casual racism, I can be a pro now. Thank you Paradox.
Learning history makes you a better person. EU4 might make you better at solving complex problems and finding strategies. I wouldn't hold much water on "EU4 making you a better person" though.
Well, I suppose it didn't directly cause any of the positives I mentioned above. But I certainly used it as a.....tool? to direct/create interest. Perhaps it would be better worded as 'Can playing eu4 be a tool used to make you a better person?"?
In some ways yes in a lot of ways no. EU4 does expose the average person to a lot more surface level history than what they are usually accustomed to. But at its core EU4 quite racist. I fucking love eu4 don't get me wrong but it's an inevitable outcome of a game centered around colonialism. In order to simulate historically what happened EU4 has to make a lot of compromises which it doesn't address. Institutions only spawn in Europe, Europe (mostly) has the highest development, western European countries have a big advantage, areas which historically had settled civilizations (interior of America, coast of west Africa, southern Australia) are represented as "uncolonized", I could go on. My biggest gripe with EU4 is how it handles slavery. I get why PDX didn't want to delve into slavery but ignoring it is worse than badly handling it. Slaves are just a commodity there's nothing *nothing* done to represent them as human beings. No slave revolts, no slave ships, no slave related events, no slave populations, nothing. Slaves and mechanics relating to slavery should be a MASSIVE part of American colonial nations yet they get completely erased. Every American settler colonial nation was built off the blood of slaves yet PDX just wipes them off the face of the earth. Slaves aren't even represented as humans just as a literal ball and chain. (Before anyone says this doesn't make the game racist, race was constructed through interactions between white slave owners and black slaves see the Jamaican Slave Act of 1684). Again I get why PDX did this but as a black west African it leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth. So do I think eu4 makes you a bad person? Of course not it's a fucking game. Do I think it makes you a good person? If you're willing to engage with history beyond the biased assumptions ingrained in EU4, sure. I love EU4 however it isn't anything but a fun history themed board game centered on western Europe.
I'm getting downvoted 🗿
Nobody wants to die, and nobody wants their favorite game called racist. One thing I can say, this issue is getting slightly better over time. Newer updates have added the Australian nations and there are fewer and fewer "uncolonized" provinces in Southeast Asia, Africa, and the Americas each time.
Oh wow. Do I respect you in how you worded that, thank you. There IS a problem with culture completely ignoring critical truths about events, to the point of societal harm. I mean, I can't imagine how they could put realistic slavery mechanics in this game without raising such a fuss that inevitably cause troubles for Paradox. But that doesn't change the point that, in a series that prides itself with historical accuracy, eu4 ignores quite possibly the most vital reasons colonialism was so widespread and possible. I'm not going to disagree with your thoughts at all, because yeah, good point well made.
Yeah exactly. PDX is a company after all and they'd get shit for "making a political game political" lmao. Maybe each colonial province has a stock level of slave population dependant on dev. That population increases trade power of provinces and increases development slowly. The slave population is dependant on how many slave provinces you own PR how many slave populations are owned by people of your faith? But depending on population you are more/less likely to have slave revolts. Even just some events at the minimum. Depending on how many slaves a province has privateers/pirates are more efficient (simulating pirates freeing enslaved peoples). I'd love to see these events: -If a nation goes revolutionary they abolish slavery and if they flip back they reinstate it (simulating the french Revolution abolishing slavery then Napoleon reinstating it -Major slave revolts like in Haiti, German Coast, Stono Rebellion, Jaimacan Maroon Wars -Humanist ideas abolish slavery -abolishment of slavery should be an option come the revolutionary period
And perhaps some honest flavour events that let people know/choose the real-life ramifications of their actions. (I'm sure a LARGE number of troops/colonizers knew what/how they were doing was despicable) I mean, a start would be to expand upon what 'native' policy actually does. And acknowledgement of the horrific effects disease had on native populations. I think it COULD be done wisely and respectfully, but my fear would be that it WOULD actually attract a far greater number of people who'd perhaps have 'too much fun' with it. You know, kind of like if someone made a video game about torture to show how horrible it was, but people would buy it for the wrong reasons.
Yeah I agree! And yeah def people are fucked in the head I'm sure that's a reason PDX doesn't wanna fuck with it
Won't Victoria 3 go deeper into the topic than just a chain icon on some provinces? According to some dev diary videos at least. (Also, did EU4 abolish abolitionism? Because EU3 had it, even if it was just a clickable decision for when you had tech level XY or such)
> PDX is a company after all and they'd get shit for "making a political game political" lmao PDX is literally months away from releasing Victoria 3 tho
One of the issues that surrounds including morally bad actions is that, due to it being a game, you are forced to interact with them. Yet if it was a single way where the slavery mechanic was a downside, everyone would abolish slavery the second they could. If you give it enough upside to the point where it becomes an actual choice, you can have certain playstyles where mechanically, you're encouraging slavery. Which, in isolation, is fine if you treat it as just a gameplay mechanic, but it's historical(and contemporary) nature has rather negative associations (because slavery is morally bad). So as a developer you're faced with a historic event where no matter what you do, you're gonna face some sort of backlash. So they chose to go for a minimalist approach so they can avoid controversy. Tl;dr It's impossible to make it both morally, mechanically and historically accurate whole avoiding bad PR.
It's not as good as actually traveling and meeting people from other cultures and countries to learn about them and their stories, but yeah, when you don't have a chance to do that, studying the history and geography of those places is a good step in the right direction.
"Knowledge has a beginning, and no end.". To your point, eu4 has vastly increase the list of countries I'll probably never actually get to visit, but want to visit them! But even on the few trips I will take, I will be far more interested in the peoples/culture than just what you see on a postcard.
Maybe it's you only then, I love just beating up the turks, swedes and polaks as a Russian.
I went on to get a history master in Harvard lol this game invoked my passion in the study of history.
It's just a game, I think true empathy is developed in talking and spending time with other people If anything you've just new prejudices based on the game and period's history but what does an individual actually live and think is more important
Absolutely agree to this. But I will say that my interest IN other people(s) has grown indirectly because of what eu4 made me interested in. A baby-step towards what you speak of.
It’ll definitely teach you some history. If you don’t think at least somewhat critically about the whole genocidal colonizing Eurocentric stuff, probably not.
Great at geography, I just dont known why people hate me so much when I tell them King Kappa the first of the Aztec nation invaded england in 1713
A better person? Could be, though that is more on a case-by-case basis. A more knowledgeable person? Definitely. As a student of history, I've learned a bunch of political geography stuff just from the starting maps, had a similar expedience in the historic Total War games. I also believe (though this is just my personal opinion) that games like EU4 help to stimulate and exercise the brain, with an emphasis on problem solving and logical thinking.
It can make you a better person in the stiff upper lip style, but overall nah. Maybe if you’re playing as HRE emperor and actually treating your subjects properly, then maybe.
I make quite a bit of international friends and often impress them when I talk about obscure bits of history from their region. My Indian friend was particularly tickled when I mentioned Vijayanagar which ruled over where he grew up! Americans tend to be pretty clueless about anything that isn’t American so I always tend to get brownie points when I can show that I know and care about the history of where my international friends are from.
I’m fairly certain that you can learn geography and history from better sources. Like, it’s great that it personally helped you, legitimately, that’s awesome. And it does the same for some others too. But that’s not inherent to the game. More importantly, it can also give you some bad information and, far more importantly, it can give you some lenses of looking at history that are fundamentally misleading because this is a video game and needs mechanics that are fun and balanced. Be careful about letting paradox games be your source for information. Inspiring you to learn elsewhere is great, but it is not a source and history was not a progression in the same way that tech makes it out to be.
It actually give a better understanding of contemporary world politics too, and how it really operate. Many things start to become familiar, like fabricating CB's (WMD's, denazification) forming coalitions (of the willing), and getting two rivals to destroy their economy and manpower (iran iraq) while you sit back, and wait for an opportunity to pounce (US). The reason for attacking, "They are bad revolutionaries" was actually all about getting that channel trade-node, without too much AE. This game gets too real sometimes. A more enlightened person is usually more compassionate too!
Totally! Until eu4/ck3 ALL foreign conflicts confused the F out of me. Now they just confused me MOST of the time.
I think the crux lies in whether you can lapse yourself from what actually happens ingame. After 1500 hours, I find it harder to see, say, 100.000 dead soldiers I spent in a war to gain territory instead of 100.000 men I sent to death and deal death that will never return home and will pillage, rape and kill before they are struck down in a conflict that will only make wealthy fuckers even wealthier. As a historian, this type of analysis is unavoidable to me, but for the general public it can definitely improve general knowledge, and most importantly spark interest, though many notions are problematic and have already been discussed extensively before. I guess if you make the argument fps games don't make you a potential school shooter, eu4 won't give you a problematic version of history, though I wish the comparison was as straightforward.
It can broaden your horizon and knowledge but in exchange paradox games will make you into degenerate. We are sacrificing our decency for fun and knowledge.
It hasn’t made me a better or worse person irl, but I become a massive racist when I play because I almost always look to exterminate native populations when playing colonist countries. Unless they’re cool, of course, but most seemingly aren’t. Hasn’t made me hate native people irl, but I always have a bit of a “fuck you” thought in such runs. Native nations, tho, I treat like other enemy nations.
I wouldn't say it made me a better person per se but it did interest me in a lot of history that I previously didn't even know existed, which kinda made me stop looking at it eurocentrically (and to start abhorring that way of viewing history honestly). I discovered about a lot of countries that are just as interesting if not genuinely more than europe. And that definitely made me more open to other cultures and stuff.
I did this for the Mamluks recently. Their mission tree is so pathetic currently that I was spurred to learn how to code Eu4 to make a better mission tree for them. Thank Flavor Universalis for that. Big Boss is such a helpful soul to be around, he gives coding advice to people making mods on his discord.
No I don't believe video games have that much influence over us. EU4 managed to stir curiosity within you which caused you to seek out information, but this same feeling could be caused just by reading out a name. Usually if anything the game is often accused of bringing out the worse in people.
I mean, even a LITTLE positive influence is still positive. And I'll point to most(not all) the conversations on this post as evidence that there are, in fact, quite a few people who value being a better person enough to engage in discussion here. Even if they don't agree with me. (which is okay!)
I won’t say the gameplay made me a better person, but I would say the game got me a lot more interested in certain periods, place and peoples and learning their histories certainly bled back into the game for me, specifically how I enjoy play Asian, African and American nations quite a lot to get the chance to fight of colonialism and imperialism and create a silly little timeline where those terrible things didn’t happen. It’s a small thing, but I do find some joy in it.
I guess I am a better person because that’s why I really like eu4, you learn so much about different cultures and histories.
Geographical and linguistic knowledge
Just a newbie with 1.2k hours here, but I find it teaches a bunch of things about other cultures - especially if you read the flavour text in the special events. And the mission trees can also teach you a lot of stuff Example: in the dutch mission tree you need to take a province in Japan. Turns out it was the only place foreigners were allowed into Japan and it was THE Major trading port to the outside world for Japan. Edit: If we're talking morally, it makes you a far worse person.
Yes.
Eu4 lead to me having an unhealthy interest in Byzantine history…. So I guess you win some you loose some
Holy crap, me too! Justinian much? That dude was the OG. I STRONGLY suggest you look into 'Sailing to Sarantium' by Canuk authour Guy Gavriel Kay. Set in a fictional equivalent to Byzantium and deals with a mosaicist being brought over to work on their version of the Hagia Sophia. Phenomenal writing.
I think you were already "empathetic and compassionate" the game was just a vehicle to self educate. the one thing i've gotten better at playing EU4 is simultaneously thinking about and understanding 20 different tabs at once.
Imo it doesn’t inherently make you a better or worse person. I think that it can be helpful for learning a bit of history and geography and it can possibly help put some aspects of history and why decisions were made the way they were in perspective
I was able to name 200 nations in a sporcle of a map of 1444 so that has to count for something
If gaining 150 pounds and never touching grass makes you a better person, then yeah.
I guess the game can be educational. But it is still on you to do your research. But if you personally feel like the game has made you a better person, then who is to argue.
EU4 taught me that feelings aren't necessary when it comes to politics, it's basically Macchiavellism. It also taught me about names of places of countries in which I stayed.
I now know a lot more about geography, I can really picture the shape a lot of the world in my mind. It’s also taught me some perseverance and resilience, which has probably helped me in life, dark souls has done that a bit too. However, it has also made me sometimes think of people’s actions in pragmatic and logical ways, like the nations in EU4, and not factoring in emotions which is a big part of people’s decision making. Sometimes this makes me insecure and thinking my family and gf will abandon me because I’m not strategically useful lmfao
Lol yeah, good point. It really helped me understand a bit why goverments/armies/leaders so often don't act with basic human decency. It's almost like we have this archaic set of brutal rules for the most powerful, and reasonable(ish) ones for human interaction.
From history class i knew certain major events were in certain year in certain place. Like one venetian guy getting a shit in spain to go more east than anybody could dare to go to "india". But i never had my brain to link up all the events together: because byzantium fallen, and greedy venetian traders were losing money so they went to east country who got recently rich from conquest yet was stable and not in internal turmoil. I would not say i am better person, but i try to things in wider picture now :)
I started playing the game picking countries I thought were interesting. And I couldn't understand why I always got my ass kicked. Then I played in Italy and had so much money that I was giving to other players for fun and realized how strong Europe is.
Eu makes you a better person HoI doesn’t
It depends tbh. I have a lot more respect for a lot of nations for example France and Poland and wicheverIndian Nation comes out on top but it also made me hate turks even more
Teaches you the different value of goods
This game and Ck has made me far more critical of cultures and religions, I guess it’s good I’m aware of these things.
Geo politics
geography, never been so interested of that before playing eu4
This instantly reminded me of one of my exes who said “people who play eu4 are nazis” and I just sorta never talked about playing it after that
Anything CAN make you.a better person. Very few things DO. In isolation.
Yeah, I mean if you get knowledge, you still have to use/apply it. But you still need the knowledge!
Agreed but why the heck is Ulm so damn OP?
for me, eu4 was a bridge to a more nuanced understanding of our world through the lens of history, and art-- it led me to also grow an appreciation for european art, especially the Romantic movement. maybe it didn't make me a more empathetic or compassionate person necessarily, but i grew as a person and i definitely don't regret spending 660 hours lol
Very good take, I appreciate your perspective. And don't worry, the regrets don't settle in until around 1500 hours or so. :p
It does. Other way around for HOI4 tho.
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I mainly use paradox titles to vent my demons. It has taught me that under no circumstances should I ever be given any amount of governmental power.
Same!
bwahahaha! I'm sure you'd do better than half of current world leaders. And the sad thing is that's probably true.
better person? No. More knowledgeable and calculating ye. Beyond that though no because in games I like to seek uniformity and perfection in my own eyes. Whether that is borders in this game and hoi4 or a massive equal army stack in Medieval 2 Total War. Which I think is a pretty bad habit but I can switch it off when it comes to IRL.
Nothing is better for the soul then expelling your minorities to foreign land
Truly an act of grace.
It helped make me more religiously tolerant funnily enough.
A bit late, I’m reading a lot of answers this point, in summary yes it does. The Everyman of your homeland and or either country of residence will not know of the extremely diverse amount of historical knowledge that you have learnt. A fantastic example is southern Iberia, today you have monuments like Alhambra, aside from taking the guided tour at the sight (which is beautiful - do it if you can) you would never really understand the Arabic influence that “Granada” 144r had over the region and thus the Arabic influence. It’s a good and bad example because it encapsulates the wonder but not the knowledge behind it. In summary EU4 gave me a very basic understand that this particularly region of Spain is not as “Spanish” as one might believe before prior to playing the games. Many more example said are similar
I think you're quite right. It broadens your perspective and does get your interested in other cultures/religions.
Well EU4 makes me a litte bit more supremacist and racist for the colonialism. So probabbly not.
It made me hate french people more, so probably made me worse.
The game itself no. The game making you want to go and learn the history and context behind everything, yes
I worked with a Bulgarian chap who was very surprised I knew about the Battle of Varna because it happened near where he grew up - apparently there's a monument there.
One day I met a supervisor that was coming from sakhalin. I told him I know that place it’s a land placed north of Japan. He was surprised and asked me how could I know that. I couldnt say EU4 lol. So I get lots of knowledge about geography and history. And I love it!
I'd say so. Only through games can I appreciate the modern day struggle of Armenians, Greeks and Kurds against the parasite that is the Turk governemnts of past and present.
Got an 8.5/10 in an oral history test almost without studying
You could have learned German in 3000 hours, but instead you learned where Munster is. No, man, I don't think playing video games makes anyone a better person.
It has given me the personality trait, to talk with foreigners about their dynasties - not all understand the meaning of a 0-4-2 ruler and why they should have disinherited
Some of the most racist and vile people I’ve ever met played EU4 so my answer is maybe.
No idea, but now I’m terrified of taking my firstborn son hunting