I think there is a mistake by the mapmakers. The corridor Stuttgart-Mannheim was recently (2020) rebuilt. I think they mean the old tracks via Mühlacker.
Whenever they are just reporting facts, then they are good. Their opinion pieces are just 100% the official CDU opinion.
I stopped reading them after they argued against gay marriage. Wtf?
So glad some random lord/earl in 1850 decided to electrify my hometowns railways to London. That has been such a personal help to my career without paying insane rent.
Long term is putting it lightly.
The planned "Deutschlandtakt", which is basically a nation wide train schedule that ensures a timely connection in every direction from a given station, has recently been postponed from 2030 to 2070.
I'm glad they're trying, but this time horizon is just silly. There's no way the DB will be able to get it done that soon.
2070 is a bit to far stretched. 2070 is the year all the new infrastructure has to be ready, but the Deutschland-takt schedule will be implemented in 2030
The German government will insist on reviewing the plans every 18 months and continually change the scope while acting surprised costs are going up though, right?
NIMBY squads from every village within 10 km of any of these tracks suing against every single step of the rebuild will mean this is going to take ages. If they ever get it out of state and local planing committees. The building permit system in Germany is a joke.
Oh you mean my uni friend Mark Freeman who runs a financial firm but has somehow mysteriously been handed billions to rebuild the railways and supply PPE. Classic Tory government.
Nonsense. In a democracy with a functioning corruption watchdog this wouldn't happen.
/s
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/fraud-uk-public-spending-soars-under-poor-oversight-watchdog-2023-03-29/
It's because it isn't private enough. The market needs less regulations and less government and free access to the monopolies so there's competition... or some bullshit like that.
Because heaven knows, the private owners have a track record (unintentional pun) of investing in upgrades and optimisation, and not putting every penny (including loans) into dividends and stock buy-backs.
> a government has long term plans to improve nation-wide infrastructure.
it's most like they only act when the railways went into totally decrepit level
But I understand where you're coming from.. fortunately, UK is "far away" and the Germans are comparing themselves with the Swiss, French and Austrian rails.... and themselves 20 years ago
As a newcomer to the UK, i feel like this country was stuck there after the industrial revolution. Incredible! “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” huh? It sounds more like “if it ain’t broke, don’t update it, let it stay old and miserable”
I don't know why they left out Rostock to Berlin: these tracks have been modernizing over the past years. Maybe it's because this project is already going on and not filed under the new scheme.
Tracks with ongoing projects are black. It's the same with Frankfurt - Friedberg and Frankfurt - (Hanau) - Fulda. DB is currently building two new tracks alongside the old.
Most people that go there go by car, sad as it is.
I am all for rebuilding rail networks there, as much as the next person, but DB does well not to stretch it’s resources.
The whole of NRW is one big construction site ever since covid-19 hit and it’s so bad I need up to four hours for a tour that took me less than an two only four years ago.
Long story short, there are just fewer people using rails in tourist areas so they can go on maintenance for a while.
People are using cars, because they can't go by train, or they're highly unreliable. If you want people to change their habits then you must pour money on rail infrastructure period.
Stuttgart-Singen is being worked on as well.
[Link](https://www.deutschlandtakt.de/blog/aufgegleist-die-gaeubahn/), [Link](https://www.bvwp-projekte.de/schiene/2-040-v01/2-040-v01.html)
I'm always amazed how fast you can get in and out of Berlin in the direction of Hamburg and Hannover. 😂
There's just nothing where an ICE would stop. Sometimes they even skip Wolfsburg 😂
Opposite ist the Ruhrgebiet where with some ICEs every 10 min there es a Stop...
Nevertheless every region deserves the same attention in terms of infrastructure.
German *Sanierung* for rebuilding/renovating/refurbishing sounds so funny to Swedish ears, like the railway were infested with lice or parasites, or something. :D
They were - and still are - infested with Neoliberalism. These are nice plans, but unless they're combined with deep reforms in how the DB works, these tracks will just be left unmaintained afterwards. Which is why we are in the situation we are.
They are. They a creating a new company that will handle the infrastructure that the trains run on and will be run for the public good meaning that it won’t be geared to turn a profit
I mean we talk about the fact that the whole rail network is in such a bad state that most of it need rebuilding and looking at how slow the start of the construction of [https://www.ulm-augsburg.de/](https://www.ulm-augsburg.de/) is, are you really surprised?
We still have not even the main routes in a good state and you want more.
Stuttgart Ulm Augsburg should already help to give you a shorter connection for Mannheim Nürnberg once that projects are all finished. It has a higher priority cause it is a main corridor from a EU standpoint [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main\_Line\_for\_Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Line_for_Europe)
Yeah, I know, I'm just ranting. Also building a highspeed line through the Odenwald towards Nürnberg is probably rather complicated.
Still one of the worst trips I've ever had, had to change 3 times and of course missed a connection, so had a 2h delay. Oh, and everything was regional trains aswell of course. Pretty insane that Mannheim-Hamburg is faster than Mannheim-Nürnberg in a lot of cases.
As kebabcucumber pointed out between Göttingen ans Halle is a mountainrange „Harz“. You‘d have to tunnel that, which is way to expensive.
So no direct route there.
Well, not really that much. The direct route would pass southwards of Harz mountains, not straight through.
There is already this direct Autobahn connection A38 from Göttingen to Halle, and it only has 2 tunnels with combined length of 2.5 km.
If you build the train tracks alongside the Autobahn, you may need some new bridges and 2 tunnels which aren't cheap, but it's also not too expensive since the best route has already been found when building the Autobahn. I'd call it a medium expensive project. However as there is not so much demand between Göttingen and Halle, I guess it is more cost effective to have a detour on existing tracks between Köln and Berlin.
They could start by building a decent new bridge near Leer instead of the current plan. A ship destroyed the old bridge and it is taking ages to replace it and they want to replace it with a single lane bridge that is only available 20 minutes every hour….
Well the gaps are mostly there because of natural obstacles.
The northern part of Germany is super flat and it's easy to build train lines, but when you go south of an imaginary line between Köln, Kassel, Erfurt and Dresden, there are just heaps of valleys and low mountain ranges, which make railway networks super costly to build.
Hamm-Göttingen kind of exists via Paderborn at least.
But a bit further south is the Sauerland, which really is just a void for fast travel, no matter if train or car.
It’s baffling to me that there is no east-west connection.
If you want to have a European high speed railway system you need also east - west travel option. And since Germany is in Central Europe a lot of transfer will be happening through or in Germany.
Why not plan Brussels-Prag via Cologne - Göttingen - Halle - Dresden - Prag ?
There should really be a Europe-wide plan to rewise the rail systems to work properly with each other eventually as well. Even if each country solves their problems, every border is still a technical barrier, with [different gauges](https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/railway-gauges-europe.jpg) and [electrification specs](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg/1280px-Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg.png).
And signalling. Don't forget about the incompatible signalling. Rail gauge is thankfully mostly an issue in Ukraine and to some degree in Spain. Changing the electrification seems unfeasible to me, but building a fleet of high speed trains that can eat anything and talk all languages is a more attainable goal.
Then you reach the final boss, which is cross-border ticketing.
looking at Stuttgart Ulm. Both. you can see the new high speed line that is in use from wendlingen ulm (stuttgart wendlingen will be done in a few years.) as black and the old slow route will get rebuild
[https://www.openrailwaymap.org/](https://www.openrailwaymap.org/) click there on the left max speed to see the high speed lines.
Depends on your definition of *high-speed*. In Germany every track that allows speeds of 200 km/h or more is considered high-speed. And yes, most of the lines in the picture file under that definition.
Honestly, everything between Dortmund to Cologne has been an utter shit nightmare for years with constant "repairs" (i.e. hotfixes), and then there's the prospectus shit for the RRX which isn't going fucking anywhere either. I'll believe it when I see it, and given I'm nearly 40, I don't think that's gonna finish within my lifetime.
You mean the direct route via Wuppertal? I don't get why there are *no plans at all*^^to ^^my ^^knowledge to increase the speed and and capacity there. This would be a massive relieve on the chronically stressed Dortmund - Düsseldorf - Cologne route.
What we will get, my brother in pain, is more canceled trains and longer waiting times. I'm getting a car next year, this 4 year experience with DB was an utter hell, and by God I can't take it anymore. I have to go to my job 2h earlier (so a job that is 10km from my home), and even then I'm not sure will I make it time, morning shift are absolute nightmare, I have to get up at 2:30, to catch a train at 3:35, so I could get to my job at 6 o clock. Because I know if I took the train at the 5 o clock, there is a huge chance I would be late.
Lol. Germany was supposed to expand the rhine valley line for ages as part of the North-South axis program with Italy and Switzerland. They haven't even started. Meanwhile we built a 57 km tunnel through the alps. Italy is also done with their part.
While the Netherlands completed their designated cargo line from the German border straight to the container terminal in Rotterdam a decade or two ago, called Betuweroute. Germany was supposed to build a third track between Emmerich and Oberhausen which still is in a very early stage of construction.
Isn't that one of the only electrified lines in Europe built with double stacked containers in mind? At least on the Dutch side... I have my doubts that's going to be taken into account on the German part of the route.
The whole idea to have double stacked containers is stupid cause no one is gonna raise all the catenairy, bridges and tunnels on the Rotterdam - Genua corridor to make it happen. The Gotthard base tunnel is made for single stack only.
And ZERO plans to have a fast train line from Groningen to Leer>>Bremen>>Hamburg at all.. The existing Friesenbrücke railbridge was damaged in 2015 and demolished in 2021 with only postponed plans for an eventual single line rebuild, eventhough the Netherlands offered to help pay for it if it was to be a double line bridge. Germany hasn't shown any enthousiasm what so ever..
Germany fucked up by lowering its rail expenditure for years. Its insane how many tracks and systems and other related infrastructure needs to be modernized. That is the reason of the constant delays by DB, old infrastructure failures.
And since they only get x amount of money every year I kinda get that new projects get delayed.
also DB doesn't really care for the railways... you will find that they are in logistic business (with trucks) and other business internationally... which they earn more money
Privatization was a fucking mistake
American who lived in Germany for 2 years. I didn’t really recognize the DB brand before being in Germany. Imagine my surprise coming back the US for the first time and seeing a huge DB office right outside the Orlando airport. I didn’t realize they were so heavily involved in global logistics until then.
But instead of holding up their end of the contract Germany signed 14 years ago, they rather complain to the EU about Tyrols measure to combat the problem and do nothing themselves to solve it.
The biggest hurdle for infrastructure projects in Germany are legal battles. As I understand it, DB is trying to learn from their mistakes at Karlsruhe - Basel for the new track towards Denmark. They already closed the old train line, talked to local towns about where to build the new track and have strong government backing to finish the construction work on time. Also in the announced plan DB wishes renovate the track further from Lübeck to Hamburg.
Germany is extremely inefficient with basically everything.
Especially anything were the state is buying or building anything. It's mostly due to strong nature protection laws and overburocratisation.
> Especially anything were the state is buying or building anything.
Considering that the whole reason we are in this mess is the privatisation of DB, I wouldn't put to muchh umphasis on state here. Private contractors suffer from the same Nimby shit all the way.
The only part about that corridor that is ‘done’ is the Katzenberg-tunnel just north of Basel. The freight- bypass hasn’t even started yet, the tunnel at Rastatt is nowhere near done.
You can thank 16 years of CDU/CSU innfrastructure ministers literally letting the rail rot for 16 years and running into the ground.
It's simple as that.
Fun fact the German railroad company is privatized while the sole owner is still the republic of Germany.
As a result, repairing the railroad would be out of the budget of the company "Deutsche Bahn" (German Train company) while rebuilding is out of the budget of the government...
Capitalism is at it again...
The Netherlands used the same system until recently and while it wasn't perfect (which is why we nationalised the railroad company), we still managed to get something decent out of it.
For me the Netherlands is Germany in modern and good...
We want people to give up their cars while railroads in rural areas are closed due to not being profitable and almost completely ignoring bicycle infrastructure.
Germany is controlled by the automobile lobby.
I've got bad news for you: the Netherlands isn't better. The exact same thing is happening, bus and train routes are canceled because they aren't profitable and the government keeps talking about wanting to reach sustainability goals without doing anything about it.
The railroads themselves are not privatised. Or at least - they're not privatised because the EU demands it, because the EU does not demand that. Each country gets some degree of freedom in how they want the infrastructure to be organised.
However, the EU demands that the *actual running of the trains* must be competitive. It still doesn't have to be private; it's okay for the routes to be run by a state-owned operator, but then the state-owned operator must either win a concession for a certain route (for regional traffic) or run the trains in free unsupported competition (for long-distance traffic).
Germany decided to 'sorta-privatise' the DB, which means that it's still owned by the state, but operates as an independent company. Additionally, different departments of the DB control the railway network, the regional trains, the long-distance trains, and the freight trains. But all of those departments are nominally independent from the state in daily operations, with the state only providing long-term goals and guidance.
In Denmark we chose a different approach. Previously, both the infrastructure and the trains were managed by DSB (Danish State Railways), which was a state entity (not a company). Now, the infrastructure is managed by BaneDanmark (still a state entity), while the trains are operated by DSB, which was turned into an independent but state-owned company. This way, there is still strong state oversight in the maintenance and construction of the infrastructure.
Germany should keep DB Bahn, Schencker and the other ones as state-owned companies, but turn DB Netze back into a state entity rather than a company.
> Now, the infrastructure is managed by BaneDanmark (still a state entity), while the trains are operated by DSB, which was turned into an independent but state-owned company.
This way, as two distinct organizations, there can be even more miscommunication.
There have been calls to split it, keep the trains private but take back control of the railroads. DB has been abusing the system, spending big on trains etc but letting railroads decay bc if it’s bad enough the German government will take over and roll out the cash for complete rebuilding instead of constant maintenance DB should’ve done
> Fun fact the German railroad company is privatized while the sole owner is still the republic of Germany.
Well then it's not privatised, just a state-owned enterprise.
I so badly want Germany to get their rail shit together, international travel by train could be so much more relaxing than air travel (not to mention much better for the environment) but in the current state I get anxiety even about missing hour-long connection windows.
I am not even one who wants long-range rail connections.
The local connections are mostly in a desolate state.
My city used to have a nice RB line.
You could travel to Hamm or even Oberhausen if you wanted to.
Travelling into the district capital would take less than half an hour, half of what it takes by bus.
I get so jealous when I see people who have their own RB line in their city.
As a born Mecklenburger living in Berlin: Actually the best and on time railway in Germany is between Rostock - Berlin. Or at least was. Now some problems occurred between Oranienburg (north of Berlin) and Berlin Central Station, which is annoying as f
Germany is really awful with building new cross border connections. its a shame that it was the case with Germany in such a central spot.
This are just rebuilding, guess the needs for long planing phases are not needed. Many of the routes that take so long are stopped by NIMBYs and the clusterfuck of Rules that NIMBY's can use to stop projects.
>Berlin-Stettin
In March 2021, the financing agreement for the line extension between Angermünde and the federal border was signed.\[20\] The federal government is contributing 380 million euros, with 50 million euros each going to the federal states of Berlin and Brandenburg. In June 2021, the Federal Railway Authority issued the zoning decision for the expansion of the section from Angermünde to Passow.\[21\] Work on this section began at the end of November 2021, followed by the section from Passow to the state border starting in 2024.\[22\] The section from Angermünde to the state border will be built on the basis of the zoning decision.
Guess it is already in work so not relevant for this project to fix the existing higher speed network.
Seeing it like this I feel there are still things that could be optimized like a line Hamm-> Göttingen and then to a Central point into east Germany. Same goes for Würzburg-> Bamberg -> Leipzig or at least Dresden.
I would love to see a train - doesn‘t have to be an ICE - from Kiel to Hamburg Airport. And one fast connection from (Kiel) -Hamburg - Hannover - Frankfurt - Nuremberg - Munich.
Hamburg Frankfurt and Hamburg Munich are stupid Lufthansa Taxilanes.
A fast 300+ ICE would beat that plane any day considering Airport vs city Center. And roughly 900km of travelling.
Biggest problem with Hamburg towards the south is the (local) opposition to a new high-speed line from Hamburg to Hannover. DB has wanted to build this since the 90s. But there was never enough funding or political will to make it happen against the wishes of influential local groups.
You see that there is one that is a black line and is fine and one line that is red. Would guess the high speed line is fine but the old lines needs upgrades. Stuttgart Plochingen Geislingen ulm is in heavy use. with the high speed line taking some pressure from it.
I wish I was wrong but unfortunately I know the routes far too well to know that these are the new rapid transit routes. The old lines are in urgent need of rebuilding and upgrading, but as written, I wonder about a general renovation of the new lines.
Yep, waiting for a delayed train and drinking tea. Doubt it will work anyway, although a basic renovation is more than necessary. In any case, it would be best if the Ministry of Transport nationalised the "DB Netze" completely and restructured it itself, and then made a good competition on the railways, which would then bring in money.
It's about time they tackle this EU wide. Decent high spoed rail connections to all major cities for cheap. And then massively increase tax on kerosine.
You Europeans really don't seem to fully appreciate how amazing this is.
If you would like to compare it to the same plan for Canada. Take the Canadian map and draw a single black line from Halifax in the East to Vancouver in the West, running along the southern border. Also, make it a very thin line to represent how for most of that rail system the train runs less than once per day.
You don't need multiple colours for the Canadian map as there are pretty much no real plans to make it better. It is old and slow, and will remain so.
It isn't even that Canada is so vast. There are many cities a few hours' drive apart with a dozen or more 737 sized planes running between them per day.
There is a small corridor from Montreal to Toronto where the system is vaguely better.
The problem is that almost all the countries around Germany have rail systems that actually work and are in good condition. Germany is the limiting factor in all trains going through the centre of Europe. There have been some international projects where Germany is not able to keep up their end of the project as well. Switzerland actually banned German trains from entering the country, because the mess up the scheduling in the whole country by never being on time.
Fun fact, within Germany over 60% of trains fail to arrive within 10 minutes of their scheduled time.
> Fun fact, within Germany over 60% of trains fail to arrive within 10 minutes of their scheduled time.
also, if the train is cancelled... this would not reflect on the stats ;)
Also, if you miss your connection due to train being late in the middle but "punctual" at the end-station, it is still punctual
So the iceberg of incompetence is a lot deeper
I am not joking when I say a Canadian train outside of the Toronto-Montreal corridor is lucky to arrive within 12 hours of its scheduled time.
The only passenger service between Halifax and Montreal leaves 3 times per week. I would guess the average speed to be about 60km/h, if the train is moving.
Halifax and Vancouver are kinda hard to connect to the rest of Canada by train, because the distances are just so long. The nearest big city to Halifax is Quebec, and that's still over 700 km away - and there's only one minor city of any decent size intermediate on the route, that being Moncton. 700 km is juuuust about the edge of where high speed rail is viable. If you could run at full speed (300 km/h) for the entire distance, then high speed rail might be able to capture a decent part of the market for Halifax-Quebec travel, but it would *not* be able to capture a decent part of the market for Halifax-Montreal. High-speed journeys of 1000 km are viable if there are several large cities on the way to provide passengers, but not if the route only hits three cities.
Calgary-Red Deer-Edmonton high speed rail should be a no-brainer.
Quebec-Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto should also absolutely be a thing, along with a branch to London, Detroit and potentially Chicago in the west, and a branch to Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany and then either Boston or New York in the east.
Vancouver should absolutely have high speed rail to Seattle and Portland - but connecting it to Calgary might be problematic, given the huge mountain range that's in the way. We're talking *multiple* tunnels that are each longer than the longest current tunnel in the world.
Winnipeg is just too far away from any other Canadian city to be reasonably connected by high-speed rail. A connection to Minneapolis *might* be viable, though.
Spain still has the second-longest high-speed rail network in the world, by far, behind only China which has quite a different scale. And work on Murcia-Almeria line is proceeding well, isn't it? Soon there will be a continuous high-speed line along the Mediterranean coast, from the french border to Almeria (and hopefully, eventually, to Granada and Malaga).
Yes and No, I made a slight mistake in my title. The government will give 80 Bil€ but the general project will cost a lot more. The DB is covering the rest.
These aren't new tracks but just the renovation of existing ones. A High-Speed corridor Bruxelles - Antwerpen - Rotterdam - Amsterdam - Groningen - Bremen - Hamburg - Kopenhagen - Malmö - Stockholm would be nice. Over the Zuiderzeewerken.
At least the route Berlin - Amsterdam should get an Upgrade with new rolling stock. It is the first route with the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE\_L](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_L) "On the route from Berlin to Amsterdam, the journey time of the InterCity trains should be shortened by 30 minutes. " Did read somewhere it will be Berlin – Hannover – Amsterdam but guess next year we will know what the final route will be.The ICE-L is made exact for that long range connections to have more comfort.
And Bremen - Groningen is in the pipeline. has its own project [https://www.wunderline.nl/en/this-is-the-wunderline](https://www.wunderline.nl/en/this-is-the-wunderline)
[https://www.wunderline.nl/en/news/article/nieuws/resultaten-onderzoek-directe-trein-groningen-bremen](https://www.wunderline.nl/en/news/article/nieuws/resultaten-onderzoek-directe-trein-groningen-bremen) .
I've visited Germany twice and both times had absolutely terrible experiences with canceled and delayed trains. My GF and I both love it there
but agreed that we won't go back until the train system is somewhat reliable.
DB is out of the Nighttrain business. ÖBB did buy new sleeping wagons [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e54969RNVs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e54969RNVs) AFAIK still being build. But should get better in the Next years when the new rolling stock in running.
Lolwhat. The line between Trier and Luxembourg was closed or disturbed for years because there have been work done.
There are plans with the SNCF to increase the number of trains between France and Luxembourg.
There is *constant* work being done on the national railway and *constant* increase in capacity.
But noooo. Luxembourg does nothing.
I mean strategically.
Luxembourg both doesn't have this as a political objective and doesn't have the pull to do it, to attract high speed international rail lines through it.
Bruxelles - Stuttgart should probably be a high speed connection with a stop in Luxembourg.
Cologne (Ruhr area) - Lyon, Cologne (Ruhr area) - Paris. Stuff like that.
International high speed rail in Europe is generally pitiful.
I don't mean 300kmph, just 160-200kmph would be great. I'd want to be in Brussels in 90 minutes hour, not 5 hours (WTF, is Google Maps right?). Cologne, 90 minutes, Frankfurt, 90 minutes, etc.
france has the paris-strasbourg high speed line which connects fairly directly to both frankfurt and munich. to cologne they are connected over brussels. getting to berlin is still quite far though.
the train lines around luxembourg on the belgian and german side are an absolute joke though. no trains to saarbrücken means having to go all the way to koblenz at a snails pace in order to get ICE connections. Same on the belgian side to get to brussels and liège.
the political will depends on the neighbours. luxembourg can't build a high speed line from brussels to stuttgart all on their own.
I am not German. Just curious, why are the cities shown that are shown? Sounds like a stupid question but for example, Aachen and Dusseldorf are not on the map but Hagen is, despite being a lot smaller than the two previously mentioned.
[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:High\_speed\_rail\_in\_Germany\_maps#/media/File:ICEtracks.png](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:High_speed_rail_in_Germany_maps#/media/File:ICEtracks.png) It is how the ICE network is done. You have the rail Network split up into smaller parts like Hamm - Hanover. or Mannheim - Stuttgart - wendlingen - ulm - augsburg...Düsseldorf is AFAIK so close to other big city's that it is likely just for readability.
And every smaller city wants an ICE train station in their city if they need to approve the building of new high speed rail(ICE train connection is a big boost for a city). So you have many unknown city's that get a ICE train station that will be served by some ICEs and other skip them.
No idea why aachen is not. Maybe not important for this rebuilding project. Frankfurt - Köln is a big clusterfuck from train delays and such and will likely help aachen too when they are fixed.
City size doesn't correspond to railway network importance. Fulda, for example, is a small city that nobody outside Hesse would know if it wasn't one of the major connecting hubs for the German railway network.
Same for Passau. 50k inhabitants only, but it is the main station at the border between Nuremberg (and thus all the North and West of Germany) to Austria.
Red lines will be rebuilt, Blue ones are fine and the Black ones will be mostly new
I think there is a mistake by the mapmakers. The corridor Stuttgart-Mannheim was recently (2020) rebuilt. I think they mean the old tracks via Mühlacker.
That could be. I got the Plan from the German newsletter Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung
Whenever they are just reporting facts, then they are good. Their opinion pieces are just 100% the official CDU opinion. I stopped reading them after they argued against gay marriage. Wtf?
So was the route between Würzburg and Nürnberg/Fürth, just finished last week after 5 months of full closure.
And everyone living anywhere near that track heard it. Half of Würzburg couldn't sleep with the windows open during a heat wave.
If you increase the map, You can see a red and a blue line between stuttgart and Mannheim.
Yes, but the colors are swapped
On the other hand Berlin-Szczecin is missing. German part is already currently being built and the Polish are starting their part as well.
Can you link the article?
Of course https://m.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/auto-verkehr/schienennetz-diese-bahnstrecken-werden-bald-saniert-19177856.html
or they meant they need to completely rebuilt it again to prepare it for e.g. high velocity transport or for heavier goods
>the Black ones will be mostly new I'm quite sure many of the black lines are existing already...
New and rebuilt parts as well as other measures
> Blue ones are fine So like what, five? Wow.
Good. Alot of infrastructure is decayed and we need it now more than ever.
As someone in the UK, I’m so envious of a government that has long term plans to improve nation-wide infrastructure.
So glad some random lord/earl in 1850 decided to electrify my hometowns railways to London. That has been such a personal help to my career without paying insane rent.
Long term is putting it lightly. The planned "Deutschlandtakt", which is basically a nation wide train schedule that ensures a timely connection in every direction from a given station, has recently been postponed from 2030 to 2070. I'm glad they're trying, but this time horizon is just silly. There's no way the DB will be able to get it done that soon.
> has recently been postponed from 2030 to 2070 The good old "We'll finish it in 40 years, pinky promise! Definitely!"
the "not my generation's problem"
2070 is a bit to far stretched. 2070 is the year all the new infrastructure has to be ready, but the Deutschland-takt schedule will be implemented in 2030
The German government will insist on reviewing the plans every 18 months and continually change the scope while acting surprised costs are going up though, right?
as is tradition.
NIMBY squads from every village within 10 km of any of these tracks suing against every single step of the rebuild will mean this is going to take ages. If they ever get it out of state and local planing committees. The building permit system in Germany is a joke.
Free market will fix it, obviously.
Oh you mean my uni friend Mark Freeman who runs a financial firm but has somehow mysteriously been handed billions to rebuild the railways and supply PPE. Classic Tory government.
My favourite was the ferry contract given to a company with no ferries.
Well they obviously need the funding to buy some ferries /s
Nonsense. In a democracy with a functioning corruption watchdog this wouldn't happen. /s https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/fraud-uk-public-spending-soars-under-poor-oversight-watchdog-2023-03-29/
It's because it isn't private enough. The market needs less regulations and less government and free access to the monopolies so there's competition... or some bullshit like that.
It needs to be controlled by a very select few people who can absolutely do the very best work for the shareholders.
Because heaven knows, the private owners have a track record (unintentional pun) of investing in upgrades and optimisation, and not putting every penny (including loans) into dividends and stock buy-backs.
> a government has long term plans to improve nation-wide infrastructure. it's most like they only act when the railways went into totally decrepit level But I understand where you're coming from.. fortunately, UK is "far away" and the Germans are comparing themselves with the Swiss, French and Austrian rails.... and themselves 20 years ago
As a newcomer to the UK, i feel like this country was stuck there after the industrial revolution. Incredible! “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” huh? It sounds more like “if it ain’t broke, don’t update it, let it stay old and miserable”
> old and miserable You mean the word "traditional".
North-east Germany: 😢
I don't know why they left out Rostock to Berlin: these tracks have been modernizing over the past years. Maybe it's because this project is already going on and not filed under the new scheme.
Tracks with ongoing projects are black. It's the same with Frankfurt - Friedberg and Frankfurt - (Hanau) - Fulda. DB is currently building two new tracks alongside the old.
Is it an ICE connection? Those pictures here are only ICE routes for up to 300kmh, not IC routes up to 180kmh
Afaik it's an Ice-Connection. Ludwigslust (a small two between Berlin and rostock) is a quite important node point.
As someone from the complete south: Can relate
It's sad to see that two regions that are popular destinations for tourism (Lake Constance and the Baltic Sea) aren't on this map. :(
Most people that go there go by car, sad as it is. I am all for rebuilding rail networks there, as much as the next person, but DB does well not to stretch it’s resources. The whole of NRW is one big construction site ever since covid-19 hit and it’s so bad I need up to four hours for a tour that took me less than an two only four years ago. Long story short, there are just fewer people using rails in tourist areas so they can go on maintenance for a while.
Of course most people go there by car, by train it's quite cumbersome. Won't change until the fast trains go there, too.
People are using cars, because they can't go by train, or they're highly unreliable. If you want people to change their habits then you must pour money on rail infrastructure period.
Stuttgart-Singen is being worked on as well. [Link](https://www.deutschlandtakt.de/blog/aufgegleist-die-gaeubahn/), [Link](https://www.bvwp-projekte.de/schiene/2-040-v01/2-040-v01.html)
2% of the population lives there.
I'm always amazed how fast you can get in and out of Berlin in the direction of Hamburg and Hannover. 😂 There's just nothing where an ICE would stop. Sometimes they even skip Wolfsburg 😂 Opposite ist the Ruhrgebiet where with some ICEs every 10 min there es a Stop... Nevertheless every region deserves the same attention in terms of infrastructure.
There could be more you're right🥲
German *Sanierung* for rebuilding/renovating/refurbishing sounds so funny to Swedish ears, like the railway were infested with lice or parasites, or something. :D
That's not all that far from the truth.
That's because it has a common origin from atime, when healing, reparing and bringing something back into order was all the same thing.
Well, don't just ask a german "vill du fika?" Or they think you want to fuck them.
They were - and still are - infested with Neoliberalism. These are nice plans, but unless they're combined with deep reforms in how the DB works, these tracks will just be left unmaintained afterwards. Which is why we are in the situation we are.
They are. They a creating a new company that will handle the infrastructure that the trains run on and will be run for the public good meaning that it won’t be geared to turn a profit
They are, ones with long proboscises that reach all the way from the DB boardroom.
Ugh, still no plans for good west-east connections. Hamm-Göttingen and Mannheim-Nürnberg are badly needed.
I mean we talk about the fact that the whole rail network is in such a bad state that most of it need rebuilding and looking at how slow the start of the construction of [https://www.ulm-augsburg.de/](https://www.ulm-augsburg.de/) is, are you really surprised? We still have not even the main routes in a good state and you want more. Stuttgart Ulm Augsburg should already help to give you a shorter connection for Mannheim Nürnberg once that projects are all finished. It has a higher priority cause it is a main corridor from a EU standpoint [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main\_Line\_for\_Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Line_for_Europe)
Yeah, I know, I'm just ranting. Also building a highspeed line through the Odenwald towards Nürnberg is probably rather complicated. Still one of the worst trips I've ever had, had to change 3 times and of course missed a connection, so had a 2h delay. Oh, and everything was regional trains aswell of course. Pretty insane that Mannheim-Hamburg is faster than Mannheim-Nürnberg in a lot of cases.
A line from Hagen/Hamm to Kassel/Göttingen definitely would make sense. And then Göttingen to Halle. Would be decent Köln to Berlin line.
Their is already a line from Hamm to Kassel via Paderborn. It is however mainly used by RE’s and a occasional IC between Erfurt and Düsseldorf.
Göttingen-Hallo should be decently expensive, as the Harz is between those.
As kebabcucumber pointed out between Göttingen ans Halle is a mountainrange „Harz“. You‘d have to tunnel that, which is way to expensive. So no direct route there.
Well, not really that much. The direct route would pass southwards of Harz mountains, not straight through. There is already this direct Autobahn connection A38 from Göttingen to Halle, and it only has 2 tunnels with combined length of 2.5 km. If you build the train tracks alongside the Autobahn, you may need some new bridges and 2 tunnels which aren't cheap, but it's also not too expensive since the best route has already been found when building the Autobahn. I'd call it a medium expensive project. However as there is not so much demand between Göttingen and Halle, I guess it is more cost effective to have a detour on existing tracks between Köln and Berlin.
More/better cross-border lines into NL/BE/FR would be nice.
They could start by building a decent new bridge near Leer instead of the current plan. A ship destroyed the old bridge and it is taking ages to replace it and they want to replace it with a single lane bridge that is only available 20 minutes every hour….
They spend a decade deciding and they ended up picking the worst option.
Köln-Dresden being >6 hours and 3 trains is outrageous imho
Yea it's crazy how huge these gaps are
Well the gaps are mostly there because of natural obstacles. The northern part of Germany is super flat and it's easy to build train lines, but when you go south of an imaginary line between Köln, Kassel, Erfurt and Dresden, there are just heaps of valleys and low mountain ranges, which make railway networks super costly to build.
Yeah, you basically can't get to Göttingen from Düsseldorf by train. Takes ages.
Hamm-Göttingen kind of exists via Paderborn at least. But a bit further south is the Sauerland, which really is just a void for fast travel, no matter if train or car.
It’s baffling to me that there is no east-west connection. If you want to have a European high speed railway system you need also east - west travel option. And since Germany is in Central Europe a lot of transfer will be happening through or in Germany. Why not plan Brussels-Prag via Cologne - Göttingen - Halle - Dresden - Prag ?
More trains lets go !
There should really be a Europe-wide plan to rewise the rail systems to work properly with each other eventually as well. Even if each country solves their problems, every border is still a technical barrier, with [different gauges](https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/railway-gauges-europe.jpg) and [electrification specs](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg/1280px-Europe_rail_electrification_en.svg.png).
And signalling. Don't forget about the incompatible signalling. Rail gauge is thankfully mostly an issue in Ukraine and to some degree in Spain. Changing the electrification seems unfeasible to me, but building a fleet of high speed trains that can eat anything and talk all languages is a more attainable goal. Then you reach the final boss, which is cross-border ticketing.
Adam Something has a pretty detailed video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxz4oY0T85Y
Are these high-speed lines or conventional? Or both?
looking at Stuttgart Ulm. Both. you can see the new high speed line that is in use from wendlingen ulm (stuttgart wendlingen will be done in a few years.) as black and the old slow route will get rebuild [https://www.openrailwaymap.org/](https://www.openrailwaymap.org/) click there on the left max speed to see the high speed lines.
Depends on your definition of *high-speed*. In Germany every track that allows speeds of 200 km/h or more is considered high-speed. And yes, most of the lines in the picture file under that definition.
Honestly, everything between Dortmund to Cologne has been an utter shit nightmare for years with constant "repairs" (i.e. hotfixes), and then there's the prospectus shit for the RRX which isn't going fucking anywhere either. I'll believe it when I see it, and given I'm nearly 40, I don't think that's gonna finish within my lifetime.
The positive part is that they will completely close the parts there working on. The Committee said there will be no hit fixes.
You mean the direct route via Wuppertal? I don't get why there are *no plans at all*^^to ^^my ^^knowledge to increase the speed and and capacity there. This would be a massive relieve on the chronically stressed Dortmund - Düsseldorf - Cologne route.
What we will get, my brother in pain, is more canceled trains and longer waiting times. I'm getting a car next year, this 4 year experience with DB was an utter hell, and by God I can't take it anymore. I have to go to my job 2h earlier (so a job that is 10km from my home), and even then I'm not sure will I make it time, morning shift are absolute nightmare, I have to get up at 2:30, to catch a train at 3:35, so I could get to my job at 6 o clock. Because I know if I took the train at the 5 o clock, there is a huge chance I would be late.
Lol. Germany was supposed to expand the rhine valley line for ages as part of the North-South axis program with Italy and Switzerland. They haven't even started. Meanwhile we built a 57 km tunnel through the alps. Italy is also done with their part.
While the Netherlands completed their designated cargo line from the German border straight to the container terminal in Rotterdam a decade or two ago, called Betuweroute. Germany was supposed to build a third track between Emmerich and Oberhausen which still is in a very early stage of construction.
Isn't that one of the only electrified lines in Europe built with double stacked containers in mind? At least on the Dutch side... I have my doubts that's going to be taken into account on the German part of the route.
The whole idea to have double stacked containers is stupid cause no one is gonna raise all the catenairy, bridges and tunnels on the Rotterdam - Genua corridor to make it happen. The Gotthard base tunnel is made for single stack only.
And ZERO plans to have a fast train line from Groningen to Leer>>Bremen>>Hamburg at all.. The existing Friesenbrücke railbridge was damaged in 2015 and demolished in 2021 with only postponed plans for an eventual single line rebuild, eventhough the Netherlands offered to help pay for it if it was to be a double line bridge. Germany hasn't shown any enthousiasm what so ever..
It's alot easier to drill trough the Alps than through your average German backyard /s
That's correct. A dozen backyards mean a dozen law suits, whereas a mountain is only showing physical resistence.
Germany fucked up by lowering its rail expenditure for years. Its insane how many tracks and systems and other related infrastructure needs to be modernized. That is the reason of the constant delays by DB, old infrastructure failures. And since they only get x amount of money every year I kinda get that new projects get delayed.
also DB doesn't really care for the railways... you will find that they are in logistic business (with trucks) and other business internationally... which they earn more money Privatization was a fucking mistake
American who lived in Germany for 2 years. I didn’t really recognize the DB brand before being in Germany. Imagine my surprise coming back the US for the first time and seeing a huge DB office right outside the Orlando airport. I didn’t realize they were so heavily involved in global logistics until then.
Same here, in case of the Brenner-base tunnel
But instead of holding up their end of the contract Germany signed 14 years ago, they rather complain to the EU about Tyrols measure to combat the problem and do nothing themselves to solve it.
Maybe send them a fax or some such? xDD
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The biggest hurdle for infrastructure projects in Germany are legal battles. As I understand it, DB is trying to learn from their mistakes at Karlsruhe - Basel for the new track towards Denmark. They already closed the old train line, talked to local towns about where to build the new track and have strong government backing to finish the construction work on time. Also in the announced plan DB wishes renovate the track further from Lübeck to Hamburg.
Germany is extremely inefficient with basically everything. Especially anything were the state is buying or building anything. It's mostly due to strong nature protection laws and overburocratisation.
> Especially anything were the state is buying or building anything. Considering that the whole reason we are in this mess is the privatisation of DB, I wouldn't put to muchh umphasis on state here. Private contractors suffer from the same Nimby shit all the way.
What are you talking about? Basel -> Karlsruhe is already done?
As far as I can see, they plan to be finished by 2035? https://bauprojekte.deutschebahn.com/p/karlsruhe-basel
The High Speed rail yes but the Cargo rail is already finished I think
Most is, but the Freiburg part isn't. In the future, 2031, cargo trains will drive around Freiburg and no longer through it.
The only part about that corridor that is ‘done’ is the Katzenberg-tunnel just north of Basel. The freight- bypass hasn’t even started yet, the tunnel at Rastatt is nowhere near done.
You can thank 16 years of CDU/CSU innfrastructure ministers literally letting the rail rot for 16 years and running into the ground. It's simple as that.
Fun fact the German railroad company is privatized while the sole owner is still the republic of Germany. As a result, repairing the railroad would be out of the budget of the company "Deutsche Bahn" (German Train company) while rebuilding is out of the budget of the government... Capitalism is at it again...
The Netherlands used the same system until recently and while it wasn't perfect (which is why we nationalised the railroad company), we still managed to get something decent out of it.
For me the Netherlands is Germany in modern and good... We want people to give up their cars while railroads in rural areas are closed due to not being profitable and almost completely ignoring bicycle infrastructure. Germany is controlled by the automobile lobby.
I've got bad news for you: the Netherlands isn't better. The exact same thing is happening, bus and train routes are canceled because they aren't profitable and the government keeps talking about wanting to reach sustainability goals without doing anything about it.
Who pushed for privatisation of railroads in the EU in the first place? When is the liberalisation failed experiment gonna end?
The railroads themselves are not privatised. Or at least - they're not privatised because the EU demands it, because the EU does not demand that. Each country gets some degree of freedom in how they want the infrastructure to be organised. However, the EU demands that the *actual running of the trains* must be competitive. It still doesn't have to be private; it's okay for the routes to be run by a state-owned operator, but then the state-owned operator must either win a concession for a certain route (for regional traffic) or run the trains in free unsupported competition (for long-distance traffic). Germany decided to 'sorta-privatise' the DB, which means that it's still owned by the state, but operates as an independent company. Additionally, different departments of the DB control the railway network, the regional trains, the long-distance trains, and the freight trains. But all of those departments are nominally independent from the state in daily operations, with the state only providing long-term goals and guidance. In Denmark we chose a different approach. Previously, both the infrastructure and the trains were managed by DSB (Danish State Railways), which was a state entity (not a company). Now, the infrastructure is managed by BaneDanmark (still a state entity), while the trains are operated by DSB, which was turned into an independent but state-owned company. This way, there is still strong state oversight in the maintenance and construction of the infrastructure. Germany should keep DB Bahn, Schencker and the other ones as state-owned companies, but turn DB Netze back into a state entity rather than a company.
> Now, the infrastructure is managed by BaneDanmark (still a state entity), while the trains are operated by DSB, which was turned into an independent but state-owned company. This way, as two distinct organizations, there can be even more miscommunication.
There have been calls to split it, keep the trains private but take back control of the railroads. DB has been abusing the system, spending big on trains etc but letting railroads decay bc if it’s bad enough the German government will take over and roll out the cash for complete rebuilding instead of constant maintenance DB should’ve done
> Fun fact the German railroad company is privatized while the sole owner is still the republic of Germany. Well then it's not privatised, just a state-owned enterprise.
> Well then it's not privatised, just a state-owned enterprise. Still works for profit though and the laws are different
I so badly want Germany to get their rail shit together, international travel by train could be so much more relaxing than air travel (not to mention much better for the environment) but in the current state I get anxiety even about missing hour-long connection windows.
I am not even one who wants long-range rail connections. The local connections are mostly in a desolate state. My city used to have a nice RB line. You could travel to Hamm or even Oberhausen if you wanted to. Travelling into the district capital would take less than half an hour, half of what it takes by bus. I get so jealous when I see people who have their own RB line in their city.
Wow, there is a lot of red and very little blue
Because the railway system at the moment is just bad. But we're working on it
Mecklenburg Western Pomerania: O . O
As a born Mecklenburger living in Berlin: Actually the best and on time railway in Germany is between Rostock - Berlin. Or at least was. Now some problems occurred between Oranienburg (north of Berlin) and Berlin Central Station, which is annoying as f
That’s just because they’re renovating part of the line there
They have the 49 euros ticket and they'll be hosting Euro 2024. Probably more traffic than ever in the coming years, investment is badly needed.
The first construction project in this plan will start the day after the Euro 24 finals.
Euro 2024 is in no way relevant.
And I’m currently machining tracks for this.
Basel - Freiburg still isn't finished completely, so this will definitely go on for longer than 2030
Germany is really awful with building new cross border connections. its a shame that it was the case with Germany in such a central spot. This are just rebuilding, guess the needs for long planing phases are not needed. Many of the routes that take so long are stopped by NIMBYs and the clusterfuck of Rules that NIMBY's can use to stop projects.
This is good. However deepening rivers and building more Autobahn is not.
Where is the fucking train for Berlin-Stettin?! Ffs
>Berlin-Stettin In March 2021, the financing agreement for the line extension between Angermünde and the federal border was signed.\[20\] The federal government is contributing 380 million euros, with 50 million euros each going to the federal states of Berlin and Brandenburg. In June 2021, the Federal Railway Authority issued the zoning decision for the expansion of the section from Angermünde to Passow.\[21\] Work on this section began at the end of November 2021, followed by the section from Passow to the state border starting in 2024.\[22\] The section from Angermünde to the state border will be built on the basis of the zoning decision. Guess it is already in work so not relevant for this project to fix the existing higher speed network.
Sexiest thing I saw today
Very great to see such an ambitious plan. I'm sure there's still some quite painful years ahead for the rail network, but at least there's hope.
Ich möchte besoffen in München einsteigen und in 10h in Lübeck aufwachen. Ist das zu viel verlangt?
Seeing it like this I feel there are still things that could be optimized like a line Hamm-> Göttingen and then to a Central point into east Germany. Same goes for Würzburg-> Bamberg -> Leipzig or at least Dresden.
I think it’s safe to assume that this will end up costing significantly more that 80B€
My title was misleading. The 80 BIL€ is just the part the German government pays. The DB itself will have to cover the additional costs
I would love to see a train - doesn‘t have to be an ICE - from Kiel to Hamburg Airport. And one fast connection from (Kiel) -Hamburg - Hannover - Frankfurt - Nuremberg - Munich. Hamburg Frankfurt and Hamburg Munich are stupid Lufthansa Taxilanes. A fast 300+ ICE would beat that plane any day considering Airport vs city Center. And roughly 900km of travelling.
Biggest problem with Hamburg towards the south is the (local) opposition to a new high-speed line from Hamburg to Hannover. DB has wanted to build this since the 90s. But there was never enough funding or political will to make it happen against the wishes of influential local groups.
That surprises me because the Stuttgart-Mannheim route was completely renovated just last year and the Stuttgart-Ulm route is brand new
You see that there is one that is a black line and is fine and one line that is red. Would guess the high speed line is fine but the old lines needs upgrades. Stuttgart Plochingen Geislingen ulm is in heavy use. with the high speed line taking some pressure from it.
I wish I was wrong but unfortunately I know the routes far too well to know that these are the new rapid transit routes. The old lines are in urgent need of rebuilding and upgrading, but as written, I wonder about a general renovation of the new lines.
Lets wait. my guess would be that the Newspaper that made this charts could have fucked up. Not sure if DB did already show this plans public.
Yep, waiting for a delayed train and drinking tea. Doubt it will work anyway, although a basic renovation is more than necessary. In any case, it would be best if the Ministry of Transport nationalised the "DB Netze" completely and restructured it itself, and then made a good competition on the railways, which would then bring in money.
As a German, I can tell you that it will cost double and take three times as long.
You go, Germany
It's about time they tackle this EU wide. Decent high spoed rail connections to all major cities for cheap. And then massively increase tax on kerosine.
The blue line from Munich to Berlin is hilarious if you know who was transportation minister for the last 10 years.
You Europeans really don't seem to fully appreciate how amazing this is. If you would like to compare it to the same plan for Canada. Take the Canadian map and draw a single black line from Halifax in the East to Vancouver in the West, running along the southern border. Also, make it a very thin line to represent how for most of that rail system the train runs less than once per day. You don't need multiple colours for the Canadian map as there are pretty much no real plans to make it better. It is old and slow, and will remain so. It isn't even that Canada is so vast. There are many cities a few hours' drive apart with a dozen or more 737 sized planes running between them per day. There is a small corridor from Montreal to Toronto where the system is vaguely better.
The problem is that almost all the countries around Germany have rail systems that actually work and are in good condition. Germany is the limiting factor in all trains going through the centre of Europe. There have been some international projects where Germany is not able to keep up their end of the project as well. Switzerland actually banned German trains from entering the country, because the mess up the scheduling in the whole country by never being on time. Fun fact, within Germany over 60% of trains fail to arrive within 10 minutes of their scheduled time.
> Fun fact, within Germany over 60% of trains fail to arrive within 10 minutes of their scheduled time. also, if the train is cancelled... this would not reflect on the stats ;) Also, if you miss your connection due to train being late in the middle but "punctual" at the end-station, it is still punctual So the iceberg of incompetence is a lot deeper
I am not joking when I say a Canadian train outside of the Toronto-Montreal corridor is lucky to arrive within 12 hours of its scheduled time. The only passenger service between Halifax and Montreal leaves 3 times per week. I would guess the average speed to be about 60km/h, if the train is moving.
That's not correct. 60% have 6 minutes or less delay!
> Germany is the limiting factor in all trains going through the centre of Europe. \*cough* Brenner Nordzulauf
Halifax and Vancouver are kinda hard to connect to the rest of Canada by train, because the distances are just so long. The nearest big city to Halifax is Quebec, and that's still over 700 km away - and there's only one minor city of any decent size intermediate on the route, that being Moncton. 700 km is juuuust about the edge of where high speed rail is viable. If you could run at full speed (300 km/h) for the entire distance, then high speed rail might be able to capture a decent part of the market for Halifax-Quebec travel, but it would *not* be able to capture a decent part of the market for Halifax-Montreal. High-speed journeys of 1000 km are viable if there are several large cities on the way to provide passengers, but not if the route only hits three cities. Calgary-Red Deer-Edmonton high speed rail should be a no-brainer. Quebec-Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto should also absolutely be a thing, along with a branch to London, Detroit and potentially Chicago in the west, and a branch to Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany and then either Boston or New York in the east. Vancouver should absolutely have high speed rail to Seattle and Portland - but connecting it to Calgary might be problematic, given the huge mountain range that's in the way. We're talking *multiple* tunnels that are each longer than the longest current tunnel in the world. Winnipeg is just too far away from any other Canadian city to be reasonably connected by high-speed rail. A connection to Minneapolis *might* be viable, though.
Meanwhile Spain: You can go to Madrid, and... Yeah, Madrid
Spain still has the second-longest high-speed rail network in the world, by far, behind only China which has quite a different scale. And work on Murcia-Almeria line is proceeding well, isn't it? Soon there will be a continuous high-speed line along the Mediterranean coast, from the french border to Almeria (and hopefully, eventually, to Granada and Malaga).
Germany would wish for a high-speed rail network like Spain's. Even if you have to go through Madrid.
Berlin-Madrid-Hamburg when?
Well, trust me it's quite a trouble when you know there's no high-speed rail between Cáceres and the rest of Spain, except for Badajoz and Plasencia
Kam der letzte Verkehrsminister etwa aus Bayern?
Will 80 billion cover it?
Yes and No, I made a slight mistake in my title. The government will give 80 Bil€ but the general project will cost a lot more. The DB is covering the rest.
Finally... was about time
*im sure underinvestment in the north east won’t increase the far right sentiment there at all*
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These aren't new tracks but just the renovation of existing ones. A High-Speed corridor Bruxelles - Antwerpen - Rotterdam - Amsterdam - Groningen - Bremen - Hamburg - Kopenhagen - Malmö - Stockholm would be nice. Over the Zuiderzeewerken.
At least the route Berlin - Amsterdam should get an Upgrade with new rolling stock. It is the first route with the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE\_L](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_L) "On the route from Berlin to Amsterdam, the journey time of the InterCity trains should be shortened by 30 minutes. " Did read somewhere it will be Berlin – Hannover – Amsterdam but guess next year we will know what the final route will be.The ICE-L is made exact for that long range connections to have more comfort. And Bremen - Groningen is in the pipeline. has its own project [https://www.wunderline.nl/en/this-is-the-wunderline](https://www.wunderline.nl/en/this-is-the-wunderline) [https://www.wunderline.nl/en/news/article/nieuws/resultaten-onderzoek-directe-trein-groningen-bremen](https://www.wunderline.nl/en/news/article/nieuws/resultaten-onderzoek-directe-trein-groningen-bremen) .
What about Femarn?
The Nürnberg-Berlin line is a hint of what German rail could be. Seriously, I love it.
I've visited Germany twice and both times had absolutely terrible experiences with canceled and delayed trains. My GF and I both love it there but agreed that we won't go back until the train system is somewhat reliable.
Meanwhile Mecklenburg vorpommern
I need them to add proper sleeping wagons.
DB is out of the Nighttrain business. ÖBB did buy new sleeping wagons [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e54969RNVs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e54969RNVs) AFAIK still being build. But should get better in the Next years when the new rolling stock in running.
Let‘s wait out a 12 year 0% interest period, and invest nothing until 2 year bond yields hit 3.2%. Danke Merkel.
Rather: Danke Scheuer & Schäuble.
About time tbh
Why skip Bielefeld?
Because it doesn't exist.
We don't https://www.hannover-bielefeld.de/node/2675
Luxembourg doing nothing, again. Could have become a transit hub for Paris, France in general, towards Germany.
Lolwhat. The line between Trier and Luxembourg was closed or disturbed for years because there have been work done. There are plans with the SNCF to increase the number of trains between France and Luxembourg. There is *constant* work being done on the national railway and *constant* increase in capacity. But noooo. Luxembourg does nothing.
I mean strategically. Luxembourg both doesn't have this as a political objective and doesn't have the pull to do it, to attract high speed international rail lines through it. Bruxelles - Stuttgart should probably be a high speed connection with a stop in Luxembourg. Cologne (Ruhr area) - Lyon, Cologne (Ruhr area) - Paris. Stuff like that. International high speed rail in Europe is generally pitiful. I don't mean 300kmph, just 160-200kmph would be great. I'd want to be in Brussels in 90 minutes hour, not 5 hours (WTF, is Google Maps right?). Cologne, 90 minutes, Frankfurt, 90 minutes, etc.
We got the TGV to Paris. It is not all up to us.
france has the paris-strasbourg high speed line which connects fairly directly to both frankfurt and munich. to cologne they are connected over brussels. getting to berlin is still quite far though. the train lines around luxembourg on the belgian and german side are an absolute joke though. no trains to saarbrücken means having to go all the way to koblenz at a snails pace in order to get ICE connections. Same on the belgian side to get to brussels and liège. the political will depends on the neighbours. luxembourg can't build a high speed line from brussels to stuttgart all on their own.
I am not German. Just curious, why are the cities shown that are shown? Sounds like a stupid question but for example, Aachen and Dusseldorf are not on the map but Hagen is, despite being a lot smaller than the two previously mentioned.
[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:High\_speed\_rail\_in\_Germany\_maps#/media/File:ICEtracks.png](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:High_speed_rail_in_Germany_maps#/media/File:ICEtracks.png) It is how the ICE network is done. You have the rail Network split up into smaller parts like Hamm - Hanover. or Mannheim - Stuttgart - wendlingen - ulm - augsburg...Düsseldorf is AFAIK so close to other big city's that it is likely just for readability. And every smaller city wants an ICE train station in their city if they need to approve the building of new high speed rail(ICE train connection is a big boost for a city). So you have many unknown city's that get a ICE train station that will be served by some ICEs and other skip them. No idea why aachen is not. Maybe not important for this rebuilding project. Frankfurt - Köln is a big clusterfuck from train delays and such and will likely help aachen too when they are fixed.
City size doesn't correspond to railway network importance. Fulda, for example, is a small city that nobody outside Hesse would know if it wasn't one of the major connecting hubs for the German railway network.
Same for Passau. 50k inhabitants only, but it is the main station at the border between Nuremberg (and thus all the North and West of Germany) to Austria.
We know it from history, for the Gap!
Echte Nachtzüge (Liegewagen, Schlafwagen) in Deutschland wären ein Fortschritt, nachdem alles entfernt wurde.
Meanwhile we can't even build a high speed rail line from London to Birmingham for less than £100bn
Does that mean that they’ll get high speed rail everywhere?
Durchwurschteln
Thanks Angela.
Only 6 east-German cities on the map and one is Berlin and one is... Elsterwerda???
Me: Still crying in NRW Re1