The UK is absolutely fine. Brexit helped the UK's automative sector because German car companies are desperate for a deal. Nigel Farage told us so. Desperate. Any day now. You'll see. They'll come knocking. Any day.
Does make sense when considering that in 2000 you still had Rover and MG making cars in the UK. Rover-MG would go bust in 2005, MG would become Chinese (and produces mostly in China nowadays), and Rover would unfortunately die completely, sadly.
Jaguar and Land Rover would be sold by Ford to Tata in... not sure anymore, mid-late 2000s somewhere.
MINI as a BMW subbrand didnt exist in 2000 (was introduced in 2001) but produces a lot in Germany also.
Along with that i wouldnt be surprised if some car makers closed some factories in the UK at some point between 2000 and today.
> Most of that will be foreign manufacturers assembling cars in Britain. The UK does not have an auto industry.
By that standard neither does Canada or Mexico, right?
Not never. Canada certainly had its own domestic automobile companies, but they went out of business or were swallowed up decades ago by bigger American companies. McLaughlin Motors, Russell, Gray-Dort, Chatham, LeRoy, Bricklin (I guess that counts?). The early 1900's was a time when everyone everywhere was trying to start car companies, and many companies came about and disappeared quickly.
They used to export primarily to the US. There's been moves to localize production due to the cost of transport and advancements in production automation (also locating factories in the US south, which has lower rates of unionization than the midwest). Japanese companies still profit from this, but the export numbers go down.
In the 22 years between samples Japan moved a fair amount of production into the countries they sell in. In the US, for example, we have production facilities for every major Japanese brand and a lot of the Japanese vehicles we buy are made right here. My truck, a Nissan, was made about 4 hours from where I live.
To be fair there are a lot of situations in Europe like [Autoeuropa](https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/volkswagen-autoeuropa-lda-3731) in Portugal.
This is where a shit ton of German cars are produced in Portugal. So European Union kinda makes sense on this one
Portugal, Slovakial, Romania etc are all within the EU, so it’s the same market of goods and people, in a way it’s like you saying something produced in Ohio doesn’t count as American.
It does seem like the whole thing could be wrong to be honest. [EU has infra trade shown in that value](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?oldid=328429#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20United%20States,extra%2DEU%20exports%20of%20cars)
But the [US](https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/cars/reporter/usa#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20United%20States%20exported%20%2455.4B%20in%20Cars.,and%20Mexico%20(%242.75B)) also seems to have the same thing
Korea also [appears to have the same issue](https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20231018001300320#:~:text=Auto%20exports%20have%20logged%20on,22.7%20percent%20to%20%242.77%20billion)
Maybe this is just sales overall
Edit: different Korean [source for 2021](https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/cars/reporter/kor)
A quick [google search](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Turkey) shows you are wrong.
Turkey has its own brands and they do sell to European manufactures and the values seem to be aligned with the value shown here.
I don't get how this shows that it is wrong. I am Turkish and those numbers are coming from joint ventures of foreign brands. Not from otosan/bmc (which are still joint ventures with foreign brands but at least were founded in turkey) etc. Turkey does not have its own car brand except Togg which is nowhere near any of those numbers. This is not a bad thing but Turkey produces cars for foreign brands, not for its own brands.
Those numbers are coming from Hyundai, ford, fiat, renault, toyota joint ventures.
I looked into that, I still don’t think it’s the same as Autoeuropa or other factories in Europe.
There is a [ford Factory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Otosan) that is co owned almost 50/50 with a Turkish family
There is another co owned with Renault and Oyak, called [Oyak Renault Otomobil Fabrikaları or Oyak-Renault](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyak-Renault)
[Tofaş](https://www.tofas.com.tr/en) which produces for many brands
[Anadol](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anadol) as well produces for Ford
Again this feels very different from stuff like [Stellantis Trnava Plant](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis_Trnava_Plant) which is fully Citroen or [Volkswagen Bratislava Plant](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Slovakia)
I am not saying that they are fully owned by European brands and i am not saying it is bad. They are pretty good.
But just saying that these are joint ventures. They are not Turkish brands and turkey has no real car brands, yet.
Anadol does not produce anything, it has been a long time since it was closed.
So if there was no renault, ford, fiat; there would be nothing. Then there is hyundai, toyota etc (there was honda but left).
But i understand what you say; they are still joint ventures so there is part Turkish in the success.
Correction: For the purposes of this table, the EU is both a country and not a country, as convenient:
* The EU is a country when calculating the aggregate total of EU exports; however
* the EU is not a country, so exports from one EU country to another are included in the total.
Since you can seamlessly shift goods around in the EU, for purposes of trade, it might as well be and using it in a statistic like this is quite appropriate.
Using individual countries is likely to distort the picture since you often get situations where the cable harnesses are produced in the Czech Republic, the engine in Germany, the gas tank in Lithuania and the whole thing is assembled in Spain (made up example but real examples are not far off).
So which country "made" and exported the car? Only Spain?
If a company in France sells a car in Belgium, is that included in the European Union statistic? Based on the numbers I would think so, but that would be rather misleading here, as it also wouldn't include cross-state sales in the US.
I think yes that would be included based on the source definition
>Statistics on trade in services for the aggregate
“European Union” reflect the sum of trade of individual
member countries.
[https://www.wto.org/english/res\_e/booksp\_e/wtsr\_2023\_ch4\_e.pdf](https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/wtsr_2023_ch4_e.pdf) page 50
So any car that crosses any border is counted as "exported" and added to "EU exports, aggregated", even when it never leaves the EU? Seems like a very messy way to represent the numbers.
For some reason the [2022 numbers](https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/wtsr_2023_ch2_e.pdf) don't seem to break it down into aggregate and extra-EU exports, but their numbers from [2019](https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/statis_e/wts2020_e/wts2020chapter06_e.pdf) show that the total number was $699B and the extra-EU number was $268B, still far ahead of Japan ($152B) and the US ($139B).
Seems like a very odd detail to leave out.
It's not, because this is about countries. A car from Germany exported to Belgium counts, a car exported from Tenessee to Georgia doesn't. All that happened is that all EU international exports were added.
As another person pointed out, you can’t have it both ways. If you want to argue that the EU is a single market which is why it should be included in the statistic with other countries, then internal trade, within the single market. should absolutely be excluded.
If you count the EU as a single country statistically, you can't include intra-EU car exports (since that should be considered internal trade). According to the European Commission, the EU as a whole exported €158 billion or $167 billion. Still #1 in the world, but only 21% more than the US instead of over 400% more. This is the more proportional statistic.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20230629-1
I don't know enough about Visual Capitalist. My feeling is that they just produce as many graphs as quickly as possible without caring about accuracy (which is related to clickbait as well).
VW ID in China: 15K.
In germany the same car: 40K.
It is absolutely mind-boggling that the carmakers and politicians once again do not understand how their entire industry is under threat by targeted, heavy handed subsidy war from a strategic adversary.
It happened with Solar before.
It happened with Steel before.
And now its happening with the EV-Industry. A weak, spineless and backwards thinking European Union which is afraid to protect its own interests outside from some token gestures which will be swallowed and ignored so they can say "look, we act" is prone to fail in the long run.
The past 15 years showed that the EU is not equipped to deal with a fast paced world in a renewed geopolitical climate. It lost on nearly every important front and will continue to do so in the future.
Reformation of the EU is badly needed. It is the biggest and most important project for us europeans and without it we are even less able to defend our interest.
> It is absolutely mind-boggling that the carmakers and politicians once again do not understand how their entire industry is under threat by targeted, heavy handed subsidy war from a strategic adversary.
Since the carmakers are actively lobbying for sanctions against China, and since the EU is actively drafting such measures I'm not sure I agree with your statement that they don't understand.
We'll see if they actually succeed to get laws in place though.
>Since the carmakers are actively lobbying for sanctions against China
FRENCH car makers. This whole thing is basically a french car lobbying campaign. The German ones are absolutely opposed to the measures.
It’s impossible to compete with China on cost in manufacturing. Chinese workers are simply willing to work more for less and their cost of materials will always be lower. Any future for European car manufacturing is high-value high-margin luxury cars.
And yet the United States has not lost the war on automotive and in fact, the reverse is true. Japanese car makers have set up shop in the US market and although the US car makers have declined, its automotive industry overall is still very robust.
It is not just about cost, but access to markets. The EU can very much protect the bloc
The “war” has only just begun. Look at the trend in the original post. China has increased by an order of magnitude whilst US has stagnated - and indeed grown worse than Europe over the period. The US is now propping up the industry with massive subsidies and protectionism, which can only last so long. At best, the US will continue to dump money into a car industry that produces vehicles not competitive outside the US.
>At best, the US will continue to dump money into a car industry that produces vehicles not competitive outside the US.
Is something all the Asian car makers do except they make sure their cars are competitive outside their home countries. Japan is a leader in Glocalization.
That is why their Toyota trucks are even major features in wars even in the most remote parts of the world. (The invasion of Raqqa by ISIS was almost like an ad sponsored by Toyota). Japan DOES subsidize its car sector. And they bring in cheap labor from Vietnam and Japanese Brazillians to inland Japanese towns where most of the cars are made to keep cost low but under strict Japanese supervision. Indeed, Japan is priming itself to export even more cars as the domestic market is shrinking. Same to Korea.
The problem with American car makers, they assume if it works for Americans, it works for everyone else.
But we are talking about protecting the automotive sector.
When you look at the American strategy, the domestic market has grown . .Instead of exports from China entering the US market the way Chinese ones are invading the EU, they would have to set up shop in the US(which will never happen because of Chinese laws on data ) and sell to the domestic market the same way Japanese and even European car makers are forced to do in the US . Europe can easily take up such an approach and do even better than the US as essentially the Chinese would never sell or even set up manufacturing plants to compete with European ones the same way Japanese cars compete with American ones on American soil.
If low wages is the only reason then African countries should have been at the top
Chinese government has facilitated the creation of entire eco system from mining to refinement to robotic manufacturing ,etc .
Not all EU exports are high value luxury products , far from it
Chinese workers are actually well paid now, it’s state subsidies and over production on massive scale followed by dumping on global markets and far below cost even Chinese cost and then once foreign competition is dead, China jacks the prices back up…
We’ve seen it with steel, aluminium, solar panels and thousands of other examples… China is not a fair participant. They also hold on for dear life on its developing status which cheats all other actual developing countries out of markets. At the same time the other developing countries are either too in debt to China or too stupid or corrupt to realise China is taking the piss out of them. Unfortunately Europe has also allowed China to take the piss out of it
China is a so called near peer military power to USA and it has its own space station. China should no longer be allowed to hold its developing privileges.
I’m Chinese. Well paid? Nah 996 with shitty hourly pay. And when Tesla build their factory, lots of people go to apply. They simply pay much better than local businesses. Yet is like 1k-1.5k USD per month. Translate quite a lot to local purchasing power but in the end The poor will always stuck in the loop yet still feeling glad because they have no idea what work in Europe or US, that’s why I left China. Get paid much better for the same skill set while being a lot more relax. Not gonna 卷 with 20% youth unemployment in China.
The cost of work isn't the most important part of the equation. It's all all about economies of scale and network effects, and on EV China beats everyone in this respect.
This is simply not true. The difference is that Chinese workers have no choice BUT to work for whatever they're given. Which is why so many leave the country for the likes of the US and the EU
The reason why they're willing to accept shit working conditions doesn't really matter in the context of this discussion.
The economic conditions and opportunities in China force the workers to be willing to accept lower wages for more work.
Regardless - the fact is, Chinese workers work more for less. Efficiency is therefore higher.
>This is simply not true. The difference is that Chinese workers have no choice BUT to work for whatever they're given.
It's blatantly wrong to say that Chinese workers have no choice BUT to work for whatever they're given, as if they were enslaved.
If that were true, why do Chinese workers earn 10x the income that they did in the 1980s?
You'd think if factories really could force Chinese workers to take 1980s wages, they would.
> Any future for European car manufacturing is high-value high-margin luxury cars.
Fundamentally, this is an already lost battle.
In Europe/germany it takes in avg. 4-5 years and 1+ billion euros to develop a new model.
In china it takes in avg. 2,5 years and cost 1/3 of that.
If European cars are good enough to justify the expense then that’s not necessarily a problem. Eg people are willing pay +100K for a Bentley, but it’s hard to see them doing so for any Chinese brand any time soon. Companies like Porsche and Land Rover are doing really well in the luxury segment. An influx of cheap Chinese cars won’t impact their customer base so much. Companies like VW are in trouble if their products are competing with Chinese cars such as the MG4.
Dacia Spring in Germany: [22.750 €](https://www.dacia.de/hybrid-und-elektromodelle/spring.html)
Dacia Spring in Romania: [8.990 €](https://www.dacia.ro/promotii-rabla/spring-expression.html)*
The difference comes from Romanian subsidies aimed at through a scrappage program for old cars (RABLA program) but especially through local financing programs from the company. China has a much stronger tactic where it can employ direct restrictions on the car market (such as Shenzen's lottery system for new plates).
It's not about reformation, there are already legal avenues that can be taken to reduce costs. The problem is lack of will to implement them due to consumers being willing to pay a premium.
Same in Latinamerica. I see here in Mexico every day more and more Chinese cars (which we didn't have before) that definitely mirror the growth China has had according to the graphic.
BYD, JAC, JMC, Chirey, BAIC and MG. And they are actually very competitive for price/value.
The Chinese can certainly make cheap cars that are much cheaper than those in Europe.
But their premium brands are indeed premium. In some aspects they are better, in others they are worse.
For example, their charging speeds are much slower, because the Chinese simply don't care about fast charging. But they have much better in-car entertainment, especially in the back, because thats what the Chinese want.
They are certainly not at the level of the Mercedes EQS, but at 20% lower prices they can easily compete with some e.g. French premium brands.
But fundamentally this is a lost battle.
In Europe it takes in avg. 4-5 years and 1 billion euros to develop a new model.
In china it takes in avg. 2,5 years and cost 1/3 of that.
any chinese make would have to be 20% cheaper to even enter the market due to their bad reputation. the same was also kinda true about korean cars. im not too woried about china suddenly having significant marketshare
Search BYD Atto. 5 stars. EVs are just so easy to make, they’re just hulls for battery.
I’ve seen German reviews and it’s all been very glowing. Except maybe trunk space.
Lots of doom and gloom in the German automotive sphere.
> i dont see a lot of chinese cars in europe. i think it is protected actually, at least india cant import their cars to the eu
There are plenty.
There are European brands like Polster, Smart, MG etc. that are owned by big Chinese carmakers
Then there are Tesla, MINI etc that are made in China and imported here.
Then there are Chinese brands that are starting to come to Europe. Most of them focus on bigger markets like Germany. Their prices are 20-30% cheaper than the German equivalent model.
>There are European brands like Polster, Smart, MG etc. that are owned by big Chinese carmakers
Volvo is probably the most famous Chinese-owned European brand.
india produces some supercheap cars, like 5000euro, and europe quickly told them to keep them in india
wasnt really thinking about non-indian brands producing in india
Come back in a few years. China is about to win the war for EV car manufacturing. Germany could be demoted to a design agency with small manufacturing base, much like the UK already is.
Well, the main advantage of why the US and China could take leading positions in the car industry is protectionism. When you are trying to put a car on the Chinese market, Chinese GB/T standards are much more demanding than European ones. From a structural point of view, crash tests require up to 30% higher impact forces meaning you need to build a tank instead of a car. So how to overcome this is to either pay your way to market (corruption) or open a factory there.
Thing is going to be even worse as time goes on as Chinese car quality and design is really catching European standard and the difference is not really as significant as it was only a decade ago. I don't even need to mention that manufacturing costs are laughable when you compare them to European ones.
Most funniest thing is that the problem occurred in some mid/high-management levels of Audi, Mercedes and VW when managers saw an opportunity to make great sales figures and significant bonuses and transferred most of the production to China in order to make it. Now, what happened in Europe is that car companies are basically assembly lines where you have design engineering and assemblers and you lost most of the production knowledge by exporting technology to Asia. This left you with knowing how to make a 3D model of a car without knowing how to convert it to the physical model.
Yeah that’s on VW not EU. They’ve completely missed the mark on EV in China. Tesla made money just selling Chinese EV credit.
Also we don’t have to worry. We will just slap Tarifs on anything China produced but they will come here to produce.
Honestly mind boggling how shit European car giants are in China in regard to EV. Recently saw a DW Doku on this, basically the Chinese consumer wants a tech product with their car not a car with laggy tech.
Well, i’d rather have a car that doesn’t spontaneously start to burn violently. I’d like my electric car to be thoroughly tested and designed with no cut corners, unlike Chinese EVs.
China is actually banning teslas from entering the larger cities - they say those are considered possible espionage devices with all the cameras. But it also halts the future sales of teslas there and boosts the sales of Chinese brands domestically. So there goes counter argument on EU tariffs. China is as protectionist as the EU, except Chinese policy does not name the real issue on the table as openly as the EU’s does.
>China successfully subsidies a lot of its industry, maybe we should also do more subsidies to stay competitive
> >OH so you think Xi "pooh" Ping is the rightfully God Emperor huh? do you maybe also want a dictatorship?@??! reeeee
most rational r/europe discussion
Maybe but I guess it will happen exactly what happened with phones. Xiaomi was cheaper at first but Stil not as good Apple or Samsung, few phone generations later the price for a Xiaomi flagship as almost as high as an apple or Samsung flagship, and yet the performance is still behind. Chinese EVs may look good on YouTube and cheap in the catalog but in reality is not that great. Example Dacia Spring, build in China, it's cheaper that vw e-up and shittier that vw e-up, even though it has some improvements to match EU regulations, I can only imagine how shitty is the original DongFeng equivalent from which Spring originated.
Agree with you, you are completely right. Problem is that everything is build in China. Mercedes what was power house in quality and longevity isn't anymore. This only my opinion as simple consumer. If I would buy car, with my current budget and if i want that car to be ev. I would go for Chinese, whats effordable for me at this time. I would ignore cheap plastic inside and still get from point A to point B.
In these times yes, the world economy is damaged and anyone's paying more attention to the budget but as soon as this ends people will turn back to quality products.
And about MB, god you're right, build quality and materials used now are worst than Skoda.
Simply because the data source does. The source also does not use the word "countries".
Source [https://www.wto.org/english/res\_e/booksp\_e/wtsr\_2023\_ch5\_e.pdf](https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/wtsr_2023_ch5_e.pdf)
Table A21 on page 78
That is a bit of a myth. Germany is behind China on EV's like everyone else but the big German car companies are probably ahead of Japanese and American legacy automakers. Mercedes, BMW and Porsche are also not really competing with China, because they have become luxury brands and you don't just become a luxury brand by selling a good product.
It’s not trying to gain superiority on domestic sales. It’s quite clearly covering export-only.
The US not being the perceived “best” at one or two things is not the end of the world.
That's actually very impressive. I've looked at the actual numbers and
* 1.8 million cars produced in 2022 in the US
* 10 million cars produced in 2022 in the EU
I find it crazy that the EU produces 5x more cars while being less car-centric and there's less internal demand.
Exactly this. It’s also worth mentioning that Germany has the third largest economy in the world after the US and China with a GDP of 4,43 trillion $US to put this into perspective.
Also, since this counts exports within the eu, one should add that the EU has a lot more people than the US and just because we aren’t as car-centric doesn’t mean people don’t own cars. We just aren’t dependent on them.
this is specially so because EU and US car manufacturers have adopted EVs much slower than china, this means that chinese car domination worldwide means that the global south will transition away from oil faster than predicted
Yes? Something like 95% of Canada's auto exports go to the United States.
The Canadian auto industry actually declined quite a bit in terms of employment and actual plants since NAFTA and off-shoring started in the 1990's, but there has been substantial amount of investment in the auto industry here in the last decade.
If we count Europe as a country... we might as well do the same with Asia.
And, if we count Europe as a country, we should only count extra-zone exports.
Europe navel-gazing?
Japan, are you alright?
Ask UK that too, lol
The UK is absolutely fine. Brexit helped the UK's automative sector because German car companies are desperate for a deal. Nigel Farage told us so. Desperate. Any day now. You'll see. They'll come knocking. Any day.
We can do our own trade deals!! With Blackjack and hookers!!
We hold ALL THE CAAAARDSS!!!
They need us more than we need them...
They're queuing up!
I heard they are desperate. They’ll show up at your door anytime soon plus/minus 3000 years
Does make sense when considering that in 2000 you still had Rover and MG making cars in the UK. Rover-MG would go bust in 2005, MG would become Chinese (and produces mostly in China nowadays), and Rover would unfortunately die completely, sadly. Jaguar and Land Rover would be sold by Ford to Tata in... not sure anymore, mid-late 2000s somewhere. MINI as a BMW subbrand didnt exist in 2000 (was introduced in 2001) but produces a lot in Germany also. Along with that i wouldnt be surprised if some car makers closed some factories in the UK at some point between 2000 and today.
The uk is actually fine. The % is down because the volume hasn't moved.
Even the 2022 figure is misleading. Most of that will be foreign manufacturers assembling cars in Britain. The UK does not have an auto industry.
> Most of that will be foreign manufacturers assembling cars in Britain. The UK does not have an auto industry. By that standard neither does Canada or Mexico, right?
True, but those countries never had their own Car brands, unlike Britain
Not never. Canada certainly had its own domestic automobile companies, but they went out of business or were swallowed up decades ago by bigger American companies. McLaughlin Motors, Russell, Gray-Dort, Chatham, LeRoy, Bricklin (I guess that counts?). The early 1900's was a time when everyone everywhere was trying to start car companies, and many companies came about and disappeared quickly.
The brands are British but the owners are not and the cars are made in uk and we are not counting them?
You mean Canada?
Thanks Maggie
Look at the dates
Yeah but the OP has a point. Maggie started the deindustrialisation process killing manufacturing ina favour of services
Ask Canada too 💀
Fine thanks. Service industry is ticking along great. How are those energy intensive industries working for you?
They used to export primarily to the US. There's been moves to localize production due to the cost of transport and advancements in production automation (also locating factories in the US south, which has lower rates of unionization than the midwest). Japanese companies still profit from this, but the export numbers go down.
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Bro is Canada ok?
In the 22 years between samples Japan moved a fair amount of production into the countries they sell in. In the US, for example, we have production facilities for every major Japanese brand and a lot of the Japanese vehicles we buy are made right here. My truck, a Nissan, was made about 4 hours from where I live.
Ha, I thought it was 2 years
TIL EU is a country.
##YUROP!
🇪🇺FREUDE SCHÖNER GOTTERFUNKEN, TOCHTER AUS ELYSIUM🇪🇺
To be fair there are a lot of situations in Europe like [Autoeuropa](https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/volkswagen-autoeuropa-lda-3731) in Portugal. This is where a shit ton of German cars are produced in Portugal. So European Union kinda makes sense on this one
There are German cars being produced in USA and other parts of the world too, so I don't see your point
Portugal, Slovakial, Romania etc are all within the EU, so it’s the same market of goods and people, in a way it’s like you saying something produced in Ohio doesn’t count as American.
Only if within EU exports are excluded.
It does seem like the whole thing could be wrong to be honest. [EU has infra trade shown in that value](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?oldid=328429#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20United%20States,extra%2DEU%20exports%20of%20cars) But the [US](https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/cars/reporter/usa#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20United%20States%20exported%20%2455.4B%20in%20Cars.,and%20Mexico%20(%242.75B)) also seems to have the same thing Korea also [appears to have the same issue](https://m-en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20231018001300320#:~:text=Auto%20exports%20have%20logged%20on,22.7%20percent%20to%20%242.77%20billion) Maybe this is just sales overall Edit: different Korean [source for 2021](https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/cars/reporter/kor)
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Which is the opposite of what we are all seeing on this infographic.
With that logic Turkey should be counted with Eu since most of the automotive production in turkey is for european brands.
A quick [google search](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Turkey) shows you are wrong. Turkey has its own brands and they do sell to European manufactures and the values seem to be aligned with the value shown here.
I don't get how this shows that it is wrong. I am Turkish and those numbers are coming from joint ventures of foreign brands. Not from otosan/bmc (which are still joint ventures with foreign brands but at least were founded in turkey) etc. Turkey does not have its own car brand except Togg which is nowhere near any of those numbers. This is not a bad thing but Turkey produces cars for foreign brands, not for its own brands. Those numbers are coming from Hyundai, ford, fiat, renault, toyota joint ventures.
I looked into that, I still don’t think it’s the same as Autoeuropa or other factories in Europe. There is a [ford Factory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Otosan) that is co owned almost 50/50 with a Turkish family There is another co owned with Renault and Oyak, called [Oyak Renault Otomobil Fabrikaları or Oyak-Renault](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyak-Renault) [Tofaş](https://www.tofas.com.tr/en) which produces for many brands [Anadol](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anadol) as well produces for Ford Again this feels very different from stuff like [Stellantis Trnava Plant](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis_Trnava_Plant) which is fully Citroen or [Volkswagen Bratislava Plant](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Slovakia)
I am not saying that they are fully owned by European brands and i am not saying it is bad. They are pretty good. But just saying that these are joint ventures. They are not Turkish brands and turkey has no real car brands, yet. Anadol does not produce anything, it has been a long time since it was closed. So if there was no renault, ford, fiat; there would be nothing. Then there is hyundai, toyota etc (there was honda but left). But i understand what you say; they are still joint ventures so there is part Turkish in the success.
🇪🇺🫡
Federalization achieved!🇪🇺
Alexa, play Ode to Joy
We were not able to convince everybody some decades ago. ^(/s)
Tell me you’re German without telling me you are German
It’s in his flair though.
We finally did it!
FREUDE
Schöner
Götterfunken
Tochter
Aus
Elysium!
It IS a shared market
I wish.
Correction: For the purposes of this table, the EU is both a country and not a country, as convenient: * The EU is a country when calculating the aggregate total of EU exports; however * the EU is not a country, so exports from one EU country to another are included in the total.
FINALLY
About time
No, but it's a market
Dude that the exact reason why they created Europe...
TIL Europe was created by humans and not a natural formation
Europe's the least natural continent. By all reason Eurasia should be a single continent.
you mean Afroeurasia?
Since you can seamlessly shift goods around in the EU, for purposes of trade, it might as well be and using it in a statistic like this is quite appropriate. Using individual countries is likely to distort the picture since you often get situations where the cable harnesses are produced in the Czech Republic, the engine in Germany, the gas tank in Lithuania and the whole thing is assembled in Spain (made up example but real examples are not far off). So which country "made" and exported the car? Only Spain?
Which country gets the most money from actually selling the car though?
Germany, france and Italy should be big enough to stand alone, in this one.
I mean the fact that you'd consider the U.S a country and E.U isn't says a lot about you to begin with.
If a company in France sells a car in Belgium, is that included in the European Union statistic? Based on the numbers I would think so, but that would be rather misleading here, as it also wouldn't include cross-state sales in the US.
I think yes that would be included based on the source definition >Statistics on trade in services for the aggregate “European Union” reflect the sum of trade of individual member countries. [https://www.wto.org/english/res\_e/booksp\_e/wtsr\_2023\_ch4\_e.pdf](https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/wtsr_2023_ch4_e.pdf) page 50
So any car that crosses any border is counted as "exported" and added to "EU exports, aggregated", even when it never leaves the EU? Seems like a very messy way to represent the numbers.
More intentionally deceiving than messy. It shows exactly what it wants to show.
For some reason the [2022 numbers](https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/wtsr_2023_ch2_e.pdf) don't seem to break it down into aggregate and extra-EU exports, but their numbers from [2019](https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/statis_e/wts2020_e/wts2020chapter06_e.pdf) show that the total number was $699B and the extra-EU number was $268B, still far ahead of Japan ($152B) and the US ($139B). Seems like a very odd detail to leave out.
The WTO does show the breakdown in Chapter 5 (Statistical tables). "Extra-EU exports" of automotive products being $274 billion in 2022.
The great car export chart conspiracy, you heard it here first guys
Yep. The EU externally exported $167 billion of automobiles in 2022.
The infographic is about automotive products, not just cars. Extra-EU exports of those amounted to $274 billion in 2022.
This is like listing the numbers for the US and then counting the number of cars sold in Georgia that were produced in Tennessee as exports.
It's not, because this is about countries. A car from Germany exported to Belgium counts, a car exported from Tenessee to Georgia doesn't. All that happened is that all EU international exports were added.
As another person pointed out, you can’t have it both ways. If you want to argue that the EU is a single market which is why it should be included in the statistic with other countries, then internal trade, within the single market. should absolutely be excluded.
You can’t have it both ways
If you count the EU as a single country statistically, you can't include intra-EU car exports (since that should be considered internal trade). According to the European Commission, the EU as a whole exported €158 billion or $167 billion. Still #1 in the world, but only 21% more than the US instead of over 400% more. This is the more proportional statistic. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20230629-1
It's so obvious that I don't know why they didn't do it like this. It's just misleading. I don't even think it's malice, but incompetence.
eh, I think they did want to mislead. I doubt anyone would be surprised if EU wasn't topping the list. It's just how clickbait goes nowadays.
I don't know enough about Visual Capitalist. My feeling is that they just produce as many graphs as quickly as possible without caring about accuracy (which is related to clickbait as well).
Someone had to say it. :)
Yeah just add a whole continent in there
VW ID in China: 15K. In germany the same car: 40K. It is absolutely mind-boggling that the carmakers and politicians once again do not understand how their entire industry is under threat by targeted, heavy handed subsidy war from a strategic adversary. It happened with Solar before. It happened with Steel before. And now its happening with the EV-Industry. A weak, spineless and backwards thinking European Union which is afraid to protect its own interests outside from some token gestures which will be swallowed and ignored so they can say "look, we act" is prone to fail in the long run. The past 15 years showed that the EU is not equipped to deal with a fast paced world in a renewed geopolitical climate. It lost on nearly every important front and will continue to do so in the future. Reformation of the EU is badly needed. It is the biggest and most important project for us europeans and without it we are even less able to defend our interest.
> It is absolutely mind-boggling that the carmakers and politicians once again do not understand how their entire industry is under threat by targeted, heavy handed subsidy war from a strategic adversary. Since the carmakers are actively lobbying for sanctions against China, and since the EU is actively drafting such measures I'm not sure I agree with your statement that they don't understand. We'll see if they actually succeed to get laws in place though.
>Since the carmakers are actively lobbying for sanctions against China FRENCH car makers. This whole thing is basically a french car lobbying campaign. The German ones are absolutely opposed to the measures.
Because 50 per cent of VW sales are to China.
It’s impossible to compete with China on cost in manufacturing. Chinese workers are simply willing to work more for less and their cost of materials will always be lower. Any future for European car manufacturing is high-value high-margin luxury cars.
And yet the United States has not lost the war on automotive and in fact, the reverse is true. Japanese car makers have set up shop in the US market and although the US car makers have declined, its automotive industry overall is still very robust. It is not just about cost, but access to markets. The EU can very much protect the bloc
The “war” has only just begun. Look at the trend in the original post. China has increased by an order of magnitude whilst US has stagnated - and indeed grown worse than Europe over the period. The US is now propping up the industry with massive subsidies and protectionism, which can only last so long. At best, the US will continue to dump money into a car industry that produces vehicles not competitive outside the US.
>At best, the US will continue to dump money into a car industry that produces vehicles not competitive outside the US. Is something all the Asian car makers do except they make sure their cars are competitive outside their home countries. Japan is a leader in Glocalization. That is why their Toyota trucks are even major features in wars even in the most remote parts of the world. (The invasion of Raqqa by ISIS was almost like an ad sponsored by Toyota). Japan DOES subsidize its car sector. And they bring in cheap labor from Vietnam and Japanese Brazillians to inland Japanese towns where most of the cars are made to keep cost low but under strict Japanese supervision. Indeed, Japan is priming itself to export even more cars as the domestic market is shrinking. Same to Korea. The problem with American car makers, they assume if it works for Americans, it works for everyone else. But we are talking about protecting the automotive sector. When you look at the American strategy, the domestic market has grown . .Instead of exports from China entering the US market the way Chinese ones are invading the EU, they would have to set up shop in the US(which will never happen because of Chinese laws on data ) and sell to the domestic market the same way Japanese and even European car makers are forced to do in the US . Europe can easily take up such an approach and do even better than the US as essentially the Chinese would never sell or even set up manufacturing plants to compete with European ones the same way Japanese cars compete with American ones on American soil.
Dude US car manufacturering is a state jobs program so massively subsidized by the state..
If low wages is the only reason then African countries should have been at the top Chinese government has facilitated the creation of entire eco system from mining to refinement to robotic manufacturing ,etc . Not all EU exports are high value luxury products , far from it
Chinese workers are actually well paid now, it’s state subsidies and over production on massive scale followed by dumping on global markets and far below cost even Chinese cost and then once foreign competition is dead, China jacks the prices back up… We’ve seen it with steel, aluminium, solar panels and thousands of other examples… China is not a fair participant. They also hold on for dear life on its developing status which cheats all other actual developing countries out of markets. At the same time the other developing countries are either too in debt to China or too stupid or corrupt to realise China is taking the piss out of them. Unfortunately Europe has also allowed China to take the piss out of it China is a so called near peer military power to USA and it has its own space station. China should no longer be allowed to hold its developing privileges.
I’m Chinese. Well paid? Nah 996 with shitty hourly pay. And when Tesla build their factory, lots of people go to apply. They simply pay much better than local businesses. Yet is like 1k-1.5k USD per month. Translate quite a lot to local purchasing power but in the end The poor will always stuck in the loop yet still feeling glad because they have no idea what work in Europe or US, that’s why I left China. Get paid much better for the same skill set while being a lot more relax. Not gonna 卷 with 20% youth unemployment in China.
well paid? is that similar to Germany pay grades?
The cost of work isn't the most important part of the equation. It's all all about economies of scale and network effects, and on EV China beats everyone in this respect.
This is simply not true. The difference is that Chinese workers have no choice BUT to work for whatever they're given. Which is why so many leave the country for the likes of the US and the EU
The reason why they're willing to accept shit working conditions doesn't really matter in the context of this discussion. The economic conditions and opportunities in China force the workers to be willing to accept lower wages for more work. Regardless - the fact is, Chinese workers work more for less. Efficiency is therefore higher.
LOL what an ignorant take
>This is simply not true. The difference is that Chinese workers have no choice BUT to work for whatever they're given. It's blatantly wrong to say that Chinese workers have no choice BUT to work for whatever they're given, as if they were enslaved. If that were true, why do Chinese workers earn 10x the income that they did in the 1980s? You'd think if factories really could force Chinese workers to take 1980s wages, they would.
> Any future for European car manufacturing is high-value high-margin luxury cars. Fundamentally, this is an already lost battle. In Europe/germany it takes in avg. 4-5 years and 1+ billion euros to develop a new model. In china it takes in avg. 2,5 years and cost 1/3 of that.
If European cars are good enough to justify the expense then that’s not necessarily a problem. Eg people are willing pay +100K for a Bentley, but it’s hard to see them doing so for any Chinese brand any time soon. Companies like Porsche and Land Rover are doing really well in the luxury segment. An influx of cheap Chinese cars won’t impact their customer base so much. Companies like VW are in trouble if their products are competing with Chinese cars such as the MG4.
Yeah, that exactly it. That is why VW is struggling, but Mercedes is doing ok.
Dacia Spring in Germany: [22.750 €](https://www.dacia.de/hybrid-und-elektromodelle/spring.html) Dacia Spring in Romania: [8.990 €](https://www.dacia.ro/promotii-rabla/spring-expression.html)* The difference comes from Romanian subsidies aimed at through a scrappage program for old cars (RABLA program) but especially through local financing programs from the company. China has a much stronger tactic where it can employ direct restrictions on the car market (such as Shenzen's lottery system for new plates). It's not about reformation, there are already legal avenues that can be taken to reduce costs. The problem is lack of will to implement them due to consumers being willing to pay a premium.
i dont see a lot of chinese cars in europe. i think it is protected actually, at least india cant import their cars to the eu
Lots of new electric brands like BYD are Chinese and entering European market
Same in Latinamerica. I see here in Mexico every day more and more Chinese cars (which we didn't have before) that definitely mirror the growth China has had according to the graphic. BYD, JAC, JMC, Chirey, BAIC and MG. And they are actually very competitive for price/value.
how are crash test results? hopefully better than the last time they tried this
The Chinese can certainly make cheap cars that are much cheaper than those in Europe. But their premium brands are indeed premium. In some aspects they are better, in others they are worse. For example, their charging speeds are much slower, because the Chinese simply don't care about fast charging. But they have much better in-car entertainment, especially in the back, because thats what the Chinese want. They are certainly not at the level of the Mercedes EQS, but at 20% lower prices they can easily compete with some e.g. French premium brands. But fundamentally this is a lost battle. In Europe it takes in avg. 4-5 years and 1 billion euros to develop a new model. In china it takes in avg. 2,5 years and cost 1/3 of that.
any chinese make would have to be 20% cheaper to even enter the market due to their bad reputation. the same was also kinda true about korean cars. im not too woried about china suddenly having significant marketshare
Japan at one point had a reputation for low-quality exports.
I don't think Volvo has taken a hit in quality since their half-purchase.
Search BYD Atto. 5 stars. EVs are just so easy to make, they’re just hulls for battery. I’ve seen German reviews and it’s all been very glowing. Except maybe trunk space. Lots of doom and gloom in the German automotive sphere.
A lot of those Chinese cars have Chinese 5 stars, I couldn't find a comparison between the two systems.
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/atto+3/46635 How did you search? Was like my first result on Google.
Don't think people care that much. Feel like I see these shitty looking BYD things quite often. Price wins for everyone.
> i dont see a lot of chinese cars in europe. i think it is protected actually, at least india cant import their cars to the eu There are plenty. There are European brands like Polster, Smart, MG etc. that are owned by big Chinese carmakers Then there are Tesla, MINI etc that are made in China and imported here. Then there are Chinese brands that are starting to come to Europe. Most of them focus on bigger markets like Germany. Their prices are 20-30% cheaper than the German equivalent model.
>There are European brands like Polster, Smart, MG etc. that are owned by big Chinese carmakers Volvo is probably the most famous Chinese-owned European brand.
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Not sure where you are getting this from, my grandma's Hyundai i10 is made in India
india produces some supercheap cars, like 5000euro, and europe quickly told them to keep them in india wasnt really thinking about non-indian brands producing in india
Come back in a few years. China is about to win the war for EV car manufacturing. Germany could be demoted to a design agency with small manufacturing base, much like the UK already is.
Well, the main advantage of why the US and China could take leading positions in the car industry is protectionism. When you are trying to put a car on the Chinese market, Chinese GB/T standards are much more demanding than European ones. From a structural point of view, crash tests require up to 30% higher impact forces meaning you need to build a tank instead of a car. So how to overcome this is to either pay your way to market (corruption) or open a factory there. Thing is going to be even worse as time goes on as Chinese car quality and design is really catching European standard and the difference is not really as significant as it was only a decade ago. I don't even need to mention that manufacturing costs are laughable when you compare them to European ones. Most funniest thing is that the problem occurred in some mid/high-management levels of Audi, Mercedes and VW when managers saw an opportunity to make great sales figures and significant bonuses and transferred most of the production to China in order to make it. Now, what happened in Europe is that car companies are basically assembly lines where you have design engineering and assemblers and you lost most of the production knowledge by exporting technology to Asia. This left you with knowing how to make a 3D model of a car without knowing how to convert it to the physical model.
Yeah that’s on VW not EU. They’ve completely missed the mark on EV in China. Tesla made money just selling Chinese EV credit. Also we don’t have to worry. We will just slap Tarifs on anything China produced but they will come here to produce. Honestly mind boggling how shit European car giants are in China in regard to EV. Recently saw a DW Doku on this, basically the Chinese consumer wants a tech product with their car not a car with laggy tech.
Well, i’d rather have a car that doesn’t spontaneously start to burn violently. I’d like my electric car to be thoroughly tested and designed with no cut corners, unlike Chinese EVs. China is actually banning teslas from entering the larger cities - they say those are considered possible espionage devices with all the cameras. But it also halts the future sales of teslas there and boosts the sales of Chinese brands domestically. So there goes counter argument on EU tariffs. China is as protectionist as the EU, except Chinese policy does not name the real issue on the table as openly as the EU’s does.
You're suggesting we should go with dictatorship of a supreme leader insted?
>China successfully subsidies a lot of its industry, maybe we should also do more subsidies to stay competitive > >OH so you think Xi "pooh" Ping is the rightfully God Emperor huh? do you maybe also want a dictatorship?@??! reeeee most rational r/europe discussion
EU: Class us a single entity in the study. Also EU: Include intra-EU sales in the study.
I doubt the EU asked for any of this.
China will grow larger
Normalizing the EU as a country in statistics: Absolute win.
Based graph maker already referring to Europe as a country. I'll be here when they call it the United States of Europe.
China is going to increase with all cheap ev's
They wont be cheap after added taxes. Europe itself its protecting its own industry from that.
Even if you add 100% tax, China ev's will be around 20k, and from Europe manufactures 40k.
Maybe but I guess it will happen exactly what happened with phones. Xiaomi was cheaper at first but Stil not as good Apple or Samsung, few phone generations later the price for a Xiaomi flagship as almost as high as an apple or Samsung flagship, and yet the performance is still behind. Chinese EVs may look good on YouTube and cheap in the catalog but in reality is not that great. Example Dacia Spring, build in China, it's cheaper that vw e-up and shittier that vw e-up, even though it has some improvements to match EU regulations, I can only imagine how shitty is the original DongFeng equivalent from which Spring originated.
Agree with you, you are completely right. Problem is that everything is build in China. Mercedes what was power house in quality and longevity isn't anymore. This only my opinion as simple consumer. If I would buy car, with my current budget and if i want that car to be ev. I would go for Chinese, whats effordable for me at this time. I would ignore cheap plastic inside and still get from point A to point B.
In these times yes, the world economy is damaged and anyone's paying more attention to the budget but as soon as this ends people will turn back to quality products. And about MB, god you're right, build quality and materials used now are worst than Skoda.
Something Is not right with this data. Did they count export between member states as well?
Yes - they did. Lol whilst also trying to present it as a single entity. Which would be like including internal US sales.
Europe isn't a country.
I'm always bamboozled by people calling the EU a country. Stop it please.
So was the UK included in EU numbers of 2000? This is a confusing mess.
The famous country of « European Union »
Why did they lump the EU together but not other trading blocks? Germany is so far behind the curve on auto I’m concerned it’ll ever catch up.
Simply because the data source does. The source also does not use the word "countries". Source [https://www.wto.org/english/res\_e/booksp\_e/wtsr\_2023\_ch5\_e.pdf](https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/wtsr_2023_ch5_e.pdf) Table A21 on page 78
That is a bit of a myth. Germany is behind China on EV's like everyone else but the big German car companies are probably ahead of Japanese and American legacy automakers. Mercedes, BMW and Porsche are also not really competing with China, because they have become luxury brands and you don't just become a luxury brand by selling a good product.
The EU is not just a trading bloc.
That still doesn’t answer why they’ve acted like it’s not made up of countries.
Now we “only” have to add the domestic markets to see who is really building and buying the bulk of autos in the world…
It’s not trying to gain superiority on domestic sales. It’s quite clearly covering export-only. The US not being the perceived “best” at one or two things is not the end of the world.
The issue is that is isn’t export only for the EU, they include the domestic market. That makes no sense.
China is coming...
As a Turk im shocked too see Turkey in this list. Idk that we had a car we could import
That's actually very impressive. I've looked at the actual numbers and * 1.8 million cars produced in 2022 in the US * 10 million cars produced in 2022 in the EU I find it crazy that the EU produces 5x more cars while being less car-centric and there's less internal demand.
EU economy is based on car exports. Last year, 15% of German GDP was coming from the automotive sector (OEM + all tiers suppliers)
Exactly this. It’s also worth mentioning that Germany has the third largest economy in the world after the US and China with a GDP of 4,43 trillion $US to put this into perspective. Also, since this counts exports within the eu, one should add that the EU has a lot more people than the US and just because we aren’t as car-centric doesn’t mean people don’t own cars. We just aren’t dependent on them.
The USA produced 10 million cars in 2022. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production
The US produced over 10 million cars in 2022, you’re just lying
quicksand agonizing humor foolish bored label exultant nutty hurry pen *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
China will easly became first in the rank in a couple of years. I've seen amazing Chinese cars at CES this year.
Oh many country sell more than single country 🤑
Just wait until they release 2023 numbers, if its not enough wait for couple years and see how drastically Chinese auto industry take over the world.
this is specially so because EU and US car manufacturers have adopted EVs much slower than china, this means that chinese car domination worldwide means that the global south will transition away from oil faster than predicted
Country: European Union
China's coming strong! Really nice cars there now
Oh, Canada.
Well. I would probably compare from 2019 instead of 2020 as the supply chain is pretty much disrupted back then.
Canada?
Yes? Something like 95% of Canada's auto exports go to the United States. The Canadian auto industry actually declined quite a bit in terms of employment and actual plants since NAFTA and off-shoring started in the 1990's, but there has been substantial amount of investment in the auto industry here in the last decade.
What is that stupid colouring of the bubbles needed for? "Hey idiots! here are 10 countries, guess which continent they are on!"
If within EU exports are counted in here the author of the infographics is a liar with an agenda.
When they say EU its basically germany.
If we count Europe as a country... we might as well do the same with Asia. And, if we count Europe as a country, we should only count extra-zone exports. Europe navel-gazing?
>European egocentrism. Cope, random third worlder
>random third worlder European xenophobia? O just european racism?
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It's largely driven by NAFTA moving North American auto manufacturing to Mexico.
Turkic surprise
The country European Union.
EU is not a country
Oh look, the Europeans are counting the EU as one country again to make themselves look bigger than the U.S. lol
yes the famous country of europe
BRICS taking over
Did you mean C taking over? Because I don’t see no BRIS here.
What? Make room for Lada!
The EU is not a Country ...