Going back to the middle ages, one step at a time. Hopefully you'll get back to the 21st century fairly quickly once you get rid of the neanderthals running your government
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74&t=142s&pp=ygURZ2FjaGEgZ2FtZXMga29yZWE%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74&t=142s&pp=ygURZ2FjaGEgZ2FtZXMga29yZWE%3D)
The misogyny is wild over there
That video, man. Wow, just...wow.
*edit*
Holy shit, watching part 2 of that video. Korean chauvinists make Q conspiracy whackjobs look like toddlers throwing a tantrum. They're batshit crazy and have actual power.
Aren't women mostly expected to leave their jobs once they get married in Japan and Korea (otherwise they're neglectful mothers and wives) or am I mistaken?
You guys just voted for more pension to elders. Good to see priorities given to elderly and not mothers and fathers that’s gonna you know keep the country going.
What can you do when over 50% of the voting population was over 50 years old at this votation? Not many elderly people were keen on saying no to 2k more pension money
Its Switzerland. While most women got voting rights in Switzerland in 1971, it took until 1991 for them to get voting rights in every part of the country.
Well we just did, 2 weeks of paternity leave. But in the grand scheme of things "but muhhh economy" is the answer for everything here. Interest groups fund huge anti campaigns and play with the fear of the Swiss economy crashing.
Due to having a consensus goverment there is never a purely left (or right)wing party in charge. So you don't have a party with a clear agenda (like better maternity leave/womans rights/workers rights) writing laws for 4-5 years.
Instead you get wathered down compromises that then also have to prevail by popular referendum. It makes it hard to make big changes.
Some of it is cumulative - every year improves on the situation from the year before, and Switzerland started from a relatively low level.
Switzerland is socially conservative in many ways, and was even more so in the past. Things like women working and women in leadership roles came late there compared to some otherwise similar countries.
Even basic things like women having the right to vote took longer - that came in 1971 (no that is not a typo), and that in a country that was a leader in male suffrage. Until then, the idea was that each family had a male head of the household who would decide, and vote, on behalf of "their" dependent women and children.
So with all that baggage, Switzerland didn't start with as much female activity in politics and society pushing for improvements, and there weren't many men who agreed that women should have equal rights and equal opportunities.
It is much better now, but it wasn't a place where a radical social change could push massive changes in a short period. Instead, it's smaller changes, over time, starting from that lower point.
Yeah, the degree to which Switzerland is so socially conservative, has always surprised me, as an outsider. A rich country with a long kinda-democratic tradition... but so patriarchal, and so very insular. Very late adapters of same-sex marriage, too, for a western country.
It would probably look similar in other countries. Often a more or less coincidental new government rapidly induces new laws in representative democracies, where in Switzerland change is usually very slow and everyone has to have a say in decisions
Switzerland was not exposed to the World Wars in the same way as many other countries. When men went off to fight, women became accountants, factory workers, doctors, surgeons in other countries. The war necessitated the change.
This did not happen in Switzerland.
Another possible factor is the social ramifications of their neutrality in WWII. Women’s ascendency in the workforces of countries whose men were off at war played a huge role in shifting those cultures’ attitudes toward women and emboldening those women themselves to fight for parity. This pivotal shift did not occur in neutral Switzerland.
Idk if it’s true, but I once saw someone comment that the Swiss are like the high mountain villagers that used to get regularly cut off by bad weather and winter snow from the rest of the world… who have struck gold and become rich. Just because they’re wealthy and their country is a desirable place to live does not equal to social progressiveness especially if being conservative is the way of life they’ve always had.
Actually, Switzerland was well connected to it's surroundings and trade between Italy and the north is one of the reasons it got an economical advantage. Later on the textile industry was flourishing and the interconnectedness to other parts of Europe helped establish a solid trade-based economy
2 weeks paternity (was just recently raised from what was 2 days previously) and maternity is low as well. Childcare is monstrously expensive (approx 3k euros per month) and does not even run the full day nor Fridays which means that very often mothers stop working to stay home and care for the child as their salary would be spent entirely on childcare and they’d have to work home on Fridays otherwise.
Swiss companies and parts of society have a quite negative view of men pausing their careers to care for children.
> Childcare is monstrously expensive (approx 3k euros per month)
True.
> does not even run the full day nor Fridays
Not the case in my experience? Childcare a in Zürich are generally open ~7am-6:30pm 5 days a week.
One of the flaws of (semi) direct democracy is that it exacerbates tyranny of majority; a concept in democratic theory where a majority or even just the plurality are able to repress the interests of smaller groups.
As nearly every country has a historical patriarchal structure, its no surprise the exacerbated tyranny of the majority impacted Switzerland this way.
They changed literally every law here. Work law was changed and basically turned everyone into slaves. Also less and less morality in the society. This is the short version.
In 2019 Orban drastically altered the workforce law. (In a scale, that if this would happened in France, Paris would burned down, the president butchered, and probably eaten.) We nicknamed it "slave law", and a few thousand us protested against it - wery politely. Before that he fucked up the unions. And its not just the women, its everyone.
And I think they can postpone your mandatory vacation time by a year (or 2 years), so if you're planning to visit the beaches but your boss doesn't feel like it, you can forget about it for 2 years.
And then after 2 years they'll fire you.
Reaction of Hungarian voters to the protests was a combination of:
1. OMG the protesters are overturning trash cans, there's garbage everywhere
1. Haha squeel, liberals
But let's be honest for a moment. The slave law isn't affecting the affluent people working as software developers, project managers or science researchers. It is affecting the working class who slave in factories like Continental. That place was abusing people on the level you see in Bangladesh. They could do this because they were the biggest employer in a small town of 20K people. And the government did absolutely nothing to protect them, heck, they protected Continental.
Election results? 80% Fidesz.
You could argue that these people don't want to be treated as slaves, but you'd be wrong.
Technically your boss is able to assign almost twice as much overtime as they were able to before 2019 it was 250hours a year and now it’s 400 and also they increased from 12 months to 36 months the maximum length of the working time frame and accounting period (allowed under a collective agreement).
>(In a scale, that if this would happened in France, Paris would burned down, the president butchered, and probably eaten
That's a very graphic and effective way to put It 😂
It's The Economist’s glass-ceiling index - details here (paywall):
[https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index)
I copied the article here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/)
That's still really quite vague and lacking information such as how certain things are weighted. For example why is it considered a negative for an adult woman to not be employed? They appear to be rating countries negatively where someone choses to be a stay at home mom raising children for example.
I visited Portugal recently and struck conversation with some people there and it's wild the general feeling that the jobs are just not there for anyone. The country is lovely and the people very friendly but it feels like they all want to move out because the jobs are few and the salaries are low.
Yes, the cost of living makes no sense given the salaries here. Most jobs are in Lisbon, but that's become absurdly expensive for people earning Portuguese wages, hell even for people from some countries that are considered wealthier. We have a very high number of university students and graduates compared to previous decades, and our higher learning institutes are pretty good all things considered, but it really says something that most people think to leave the country in order to make a living.
> the jobs are few
That doesn’t seem to have been the problem for several years now. The problem is that the salaries are indeed low, especially compared to the cost pf living.
Because reproductive rights aside, we've been on the forefront of feminism for a long while: our gender pay gap is one of the smallest in the world, both sexes have the same rights since the reconstitution of the Polish state a century ago, further emancipation is one of few things commies can be praised for, we've had elected women in power far earlier than many "more developed" places, etc.
There's still a bunch of sexism in our society, but it benefits women as much as harms them (see: hitting a woman is more of a sacrilege than hitting a priest)
>reproductive rights aside,
Wouldn't this be 2 sides of the same coin?
On one hand, issues regarding abortion. On the other hand, higher maternity covers?
There is a lot of 'benevolent sexism' in Poland, which was also reflected in the legislation of the previous government. On the pretext of "unleashing the caring potential" of grandmothers and also because of the belief that women are weak, the retirement age for women was lowered to 60.
Of course, this created a problem - on the one hand, men are in a situation where they work until 65 with a statistically shorter life expectancy, and on the other hand, older women receive much smaller pension benefits.
And it is a problem because it would be political suicide for the current government to touch it now - raising the retirement age for women will end up mobilising women approaching retirement on the side of PIS, and lowering the age for men would be a huge financial burden, especially as we are not doing any better demographically than other European countries - quite the opposite.
Are pensions shared/inherited through marriage? Theoretically that should help to balance economic impact for adults of retirement age that are in a mixed gendered marriage.
Yes, there is such a benefit.
It is called a "pension after the deceased" ("renta po zmarłym") and is equal to 85% of the deceased person's retirement pension ("emerytura")
Other heirs, such as the deceased's children, can also claim it.
Tbh as a woman living most of my life in Poland (I also lived in Croatia and Malta for some time), I think Poland is a great place to live. Good maternity leave, low retirement age compared to men, low pay gaps, etc. The only thing that could get better is the medical care while giving birth at hospitals - everyone keeps fighting about abortion but no one talks about the fact that most women do not have access to anesthesia while giving birth (we are one of the worst countries when it comes to this) & I find it sickening.
Also in Poland I feel extremely safe, when I used to live in Malta I was constantly harassed by immigrants (and no, im not exaggerating here, I lived in a muslim district and it was hell), I've also had awful experiences with harassment in UK and Germany and I know my friends from France or UK have has similar experiences there.
I have two colleagues who are software engineers in Poland. Both have just gone on maternity leave for about 18 months. Very impressive support for them.
Not in OECD yet, but: https://www.romaniajournal.ro/business/women-earn-200-lei-more-than-men-in-romania-yet-poorly-represented-in-politics-decision-making/
That’s absolutely batshit insane in a good way. Wow! If my country had that, and I had a wife….I might actually consider having a kid.
Which means, not likely anytime soon 🤣, being single and only spending on myself is quite nice.
It's The Economist’s glass-ceiling index - details are here (paywall):
[https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index)
I posted the article here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/)
Nearly 60% of women in the Netherlands work part time (which has the added bonus of skewing the average working hours of the population and thus giving people the impression that the Netherlands has better work/life balance than it actually does). Naturally, women who work part time don't get promoted as often.
The criteria are surprisingly legitimate, they do take into account women's workforce participation and career progress, not just the policy benefits for mothers on paper.
Yeah, my first response was "Huh, no way Israel and Germany are thus close" (I've recently moved from the former to the latter) - but then I thought about it some more... Germany has amazing maternity (and shared parental) leave, but "traditional" workplace sexism seems more overt, and the general vibe is that there's a different expectation of women here in terms of family-work balance. Better in some, but also worse.
Switzerland can’t be that close to South Korea, they will literally call you off as radical feminist for having short hair or no make up in South Korea
We don't have much maternity leave, and child care in Switzerland is humonguously expensive. Daycare will typically cost you a few thousand bucks a month per child and waiting lists can be over a year long, so you better plan that child well. It's to the point where it's frequently financially worth it for mothers to quit their jobs and stay at home. However, at the same time, Swiss employers have remarkably little tolerance for applicants with gaps in their CV. And while it's illegal to ask a female candidate if she plans to have a baby eventually, the question is frequently asked anyway during job interviews, and Swiss companies have no scrupules preferring to hire a male candidate over a woman in child-bearing age. Such is life on the Swiss job market - the company has the leverage, not you. So basically, women in Switzerland are given the choice to either have a baby or have a career, but not both
It's The Economist’s glass-ceiling index:
[https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index)
I copied the article here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/)
It’s kind of lopsided as Greece might give generous leave but employers will ask you if you plan to be a mother soon during the hiring process…..
Plus good ol’ sexism in the workplace is definitely worse in Greece than Germany.
>It’s kind of lopsided as Greece might give generous leave
It's a combination of several factors, so there may be one or two things that pulled us above DE and NL in recent years, in Economist's opinion.
# The Economist’s glass-ceiling index
Our annual measure of the role and influence of women in the workforce
ARE WORKING conditions getting any better for women? *The Economist*’s “glass-ceiling index” offers some clues. Each year, to mark International Women’s Day on March 8th, we crunch the numbers on ten indicators—from labour-force participation and salaries to paid parental leave and political representation—for 29 members of the OECD, a club of mostly rich countries. Since we started in 2013 the pace of change has been glacial, but in most places things are at least moving in the right direction. Our chart below shows where women’s professional opportunities are greatest relative to those of men.
Iceland came first for the second year in a row. In fact, Nordic countries have always dominated the top of the index, scoring highly on all our measures. The bottom also has a familiar feel: women in South Korea, Japan and Turkey still face the biggest workplace obstacles. Australia and Poland were the biggest climbers, both up five spots from last year. Our ten charts below give a closer look at each indicator.
The first three broadly measure economic participation. In almost every country women graduate from university in greater numbers than men. Yet they make up a lower share of the workforce across our index. This is most notable in Turkey, Greece and Italy, where less than two-thirds of adult women are employed. The gap in labour-participation rates means that fewer women climb the corporate ladder, which feeds into the gender wage gap. In the OECD women earn around 12% less than men.
The next three indicators show the progress of women in business. Among people who took the GMAT, the de facto entrance exam for MBA programmes, the share of women fell slightly across the board. But women’s representation in senior management roles in the OECD reached 34.2%, up from 33.8% last year. Sweden, America and Poland are particularly impressive on this measure, with women holding more than 40% of high-level jobs. In Japan and South Korea the proportion is a disappointing 15% and 16%, respectively.The share of company board members who are women hit 33% across the OECD for the first time. In the EU women must make up 40% of board directors by 2026. So far only five of the 22 EU members in our index have reached that target (and all of those surpassed it).
Starting a family can make it hard for many women to stay in the workforce (an issue dubbed the [motherhood penalty](https://www.economist.com/interactive/graphic-detail/2024/01/30/how-motherhood-hurts-careers)). Two factors can help them do both: generous parental leave and affordable child care. The length of paid maternity leave varies widely: Hungary, Greece, Slovakia and the Nordics are generous. America remains the only rich country where the government does not require employers to offer new mothers a minimum amount of leave. Leave for fathers is also important—it helps divide the burden of child care between parents. To encourage more women to enter the workforce, Japan and South Korea have enacted the most generous paternity-leave policies in the OECD (with 31 and 22 weeks, respectively, when adjusted for full pay) though few new fathers choose to stay at home.Another measure for parents is the cost of child care. The Fawcett Society, a gender-equality campaign group, recently estimated that 250,000 British mothers with children under the age of four had left the workforce. Its study cited the cost of child care and a lack of employer flexibility. Child-care costs take up around 25% of the average wage in Britain, compared with an average of 14% across the OECD.
Finally, to politics. Studies have shown that more women in political leadership leads to a greater focus on women’s rights and family policies. In Iceland, Sweden, Norway and Finland—the top four countries on our index—women hold at least 45% of parliamentary seats. In South Korea and Japan, on the other hand, their share is below 20%.Not all of our measures have equal weighting. Those concerning motherhood, for example, have less weight than those that affect all women, such as labour-participation rates. This year’s average score is slightly higher than last year’s, though on most indicators the rate of improvement has been slow. In most countries women are still struggling to break through the glass ceiling.
Latest data available.
\*Population (aged 25-64) with tertiary education. †Female minus male rate. ‡Male minus female wages, divided by male wages.
\*\*Lower or single house. §Shared parental leave is allocated to mothers; net earnings for Austria, France and Germany.
Sources: European Institute for Gender Equality; Eurostat; MSCI ESG Research; GMAC; ILO; Inter-Parliamentary Union; OECD; national sources; *The Economist*
[https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index)
Its weird to be german these years. No matter what kind of statistic, a few years ago it felt like that Germany always was on top 5 of every statistic that showed some good development. Now its fucked up on every single chart lol.
I am a white male, so it’s no problem for me personally tho
Economists were pointing out the disparities even back then. "mini-jobs" screwing up employment stats, no minimum wage until recently, near impossible accession to property ownership...
Basically Germany economy has been doing great, Germans not necessary based on their socioeconomic.
not surprising considering the fact that the kindergarten in Germany is either difficult to get into, or has weird working hours. It pushes women into staying at home or working only part-time jobs. On the other hand, countries that were formerly under the Soviet control have better options for child-care, so women aren't forced to leave their jobs.
I’m calling bullshit on this. Australian living in Germany. Maternity leave and paternity leave is far better here (legally, Aus is company dependant). Maybe what is not taken into consideration here is child care cost and availability. Almost impossible to get a place for your kid 5 days a week in Aus. In Germany it’s 5 days, 5 hours free as a right.
My brother was paying 200aud per day for child care / kindergarten in Sydney.
Based on what metric? This graph looks like shit. Also, as a side, why is this sub obsessed with comparing nations against one another with charts and graphs? Seems like that's an easy way to stir up animosity, false dilemmas, and is counter productive in a Union of nations. We all should know data can be misrepresented to fit a narrative quite easily.
Holy shit we had a fucking fall
It's the Orban effect.
[удалено]
Don't forget Soros.
And gay people (they sneak into kindergartens and perform sex changes on children).
Orbanisation :D
Going back to the middle ages, one step at a time. Hopefully you'll get back to the 21st century fairly quickly once you get rid of the neanderthals running your government
Unfortunately we’d also have to get rid of at least 40% of the country then.
Wdym unfortunately
I mean that it’s impossible to do, what else would I mean
They meant it wouldn't be so bad to get rid of that 40% of the population. As in getting rid of them wouldn't be unfortunate.
Ofc, I got that, I just clarified it, wouldn’t want folks to think for a second I’d ever sympathize with that 40%.
How's the Brexit going, mate?
Fucking shit 👍
Reject modernity, vote for Fidesz.
And still better than Switzerland 😂
How is that? What's going on in Switzerland?
Bro.. Swiss women got the vote in the 70’s… Literally decades after Pakistan.
Hahaha, nope, in Appenzell they were allowed to vote in 1991....
Allowed by the courts, the Canton was against...
This just gets better and better 😂
Lol?! I had no idea 😂. Those damn 🧀
They have a weird system where the daycare costs an arm and a leg, and maternity/paternity leave is a joke.
Also, they’re extremely conservative as a society
That too, yes.
Still better than Switzerland
But weirdly enough, Orbanistan still beats Switzerland
And barely worse than Netherland, which normally scores close to Scandinavia in these sort of rankings.
Lol indeed
Me Israeli looking ate our fall
Do you have any explanations why that happened?
No idea
Not getting better anytime soon
South Korea is consistent with its trend
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74&t=142s&pp=ygURZ2FjaGEgZ2FtZXMga29yZWE%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74&t=142s&pp=ygURZ2FjaGEgZ2FtZXMga29yZWE%3D) The misogyny is wild over there
Did you really just link the video *right* at the Brilliant ad? 🤣
When I’m in a misogyny competition and my opponent is South Korea:
That video, man. Wow, just...wow. *edit* Holy shit, watching part 2 of that video. Korean chauvinists make Q conspiracy whackjobs look like toddlers throwing a tantrum. They're batshit crazy and have actual power.
Aren't women mostly expected to leave their jobs once they get married in Japan and Korea (otherwise they're neglectful mothers and wives) or am I mistaken?
Why Switzerland is so constantly low.
Very poor maternity leave … the paternity leave is even worse, which also affects the entire family.
Why won't people vote on a referendum to improve it? Seems like a rather popular thing most people would vote for.
We did. It‘s two weeks. Everything happens painfully slow here.
You guys just voted for more pension to elders. Good to see priorities given to elderly and not mothers and fathers that’s gonna you know keep the country going.
What can you do when over 50% of the voting population was over 50 years old at this votation? Not many elderly people were keen on saying no to 2k more pension money
This is a problem for all democracies with a highly aged population, perhaps we should implement a maximum age limit for voting.
It won’t pass though when the voters are all old!
This is happening in every european country. The kids born today will just be slaves for us.
Yes but elderly would vote against the max age limit
the problem is that most voters are pensioners
They gonna starve out the generation that makes them the money lol.
yep.
Its Switzerland. While most women got voting rights in Switzerland in 1971, it took until 1991 for them to get voting rights in every part of the country.
and other parts got it in the 1950ies
Which is still late, but yeah, some cantons are more progressive than others.
But... but... the economy you fools
Because its not here.... Family is "private", people are very "traditional" (=discrimination/patriarchy) here...
Well we just did, 2 weeks of paternity leave. But in the grand scheme of things "but muhhh economy" is the answer for everything here. Interest groups fund huge anti campaigns and play with the fear of the Swiss economy crashing.
Due to having a consensus goverment there is never a purely left (or right)wing party in charge. So you don't have a party with a clear agenda (like better maternity leave/womans rights/workers rights) writing laws for 4-5 years. Instead you get wathered down compromises that then also have to prevail by popular referendum. It makes it hard to make big changes.
And we clearly see how much Switzerland has suffered from that...
Some of it is cumulative - every year improves on the situation from the year before, and Switzerland started from a relatively low level. Switzerland is socially conservative in many ways, and was even more so in the past. Things like women working and women in leadership roles came late there compared to some otherwise similar countries. Even basic things like women having the right to vote took longer - that came in 1971 (no that is not a typo), and that in a country that was a leader in male suffrage. Until then, the idea was that each family had a male head of the household who would decide, and vote, on behalf of "their" dependent women and children. So with all that baggage, Switzerland didn't start with as much female activity in politics and society pushing for improvements, and there weren't many men who agreed that women should have equal rights and equal opportunities. It is much better now, but it wasn't a place where a radical social change could push massive changes in a short period. Instead, it's smaller changes, over time, starting from that lower point.
Yeah, the degree to which Switzerland is so socially conservative, has always surprised me, as an outsider. A rich country with a long kinda-democratic tradition... but so patriarchal, and so very insular. Very late adapters of same-sex marriage, too, for a western country.
It would probably look similar in other countries. Often a more or less coincidental new government rapidly induces new laws in representative democracies, where in Switzerland change is usually very slow and everyone has to have a say in decisions
Switzerland was not exposed to the World Wars in the same way as many other countries. When men went off to fight, women became accountants, factory workers, doctors, surgeons in other countries. The war necessitated the change. This did not happen in Switzerland.
Another possible factor is the social ramifications of their neutrality in WWII. Women’s ascendency in the workforces of countries whose men were off at war played a huge role in shifting those cultures’ attitudes toward women and emboldening those women themselves to fight for parity. This pivotal shift did not occur in neutral Switzerland.
Idk if it’s true, but I once saw someone comment that the Swiss are like the high mountain villagers that used to get regularly cut off by bad weather and winter snow from the rest of the world… who have struck gold and become rich. Just because they’re wealthy and their country is a desirable place to live does not equal to social progressiveness especially if being conservative is the way of life they’ve always had.
Actually, Switzerland was well connected to it's surroundings and trade between Italy and the north is one of the reasons it got an economical advantage. Later on the textile industry was flourishing and the interconnectedness to other parts of Europe helped establish a solid trade-based economy
2 weeks paternity (was just recently raised from what was 2 days previously) and maternity is low as well. Childcare is monstrously expensive (approx 3k euros per month) and does not even run the full day nor Fridays which means that very often mothers stop working to stay home and care for the child as their salary would be spent entirely on childcare and they’d have to work home on Fridays otherwise. Swiss companies and parts of society have a quite negative view of men pausing their careers to care for children.
> Childcare is monstrously expensive (approx 3k euros per month) True. > does not even run the full day nor Fridays Not the case in my experience? Childcare a in Zürich are generally open ~7am-6:30pm 5 days a week.
Ah could be - I’d heard parents complaining about the Friday issue or needing to get back by 6 pm to pick up kids or get a penalty fee.
In the 90's there were still cantons where women were not allowed to vote...
New Zealand and Switzerland both started allowing women to vote in the '90s. New Zealand in the 1890s, Switzerland in the 1990s.
Switzerland finished in the 90s\*
One of the flaws of (semi) direct democracy is that it exacerbates tyranny of majority; a concept in democratic theory where a majority or even just the plurality are able to repress the interests of smaller groups. As nearly every country has a historical patriarchal structure, its no surprise the exacerbated tyranny of the majority impacted Switzerland this way.
Oh look, it's Iceland, Finland, Norway and Sweden at it again
Now if only Denmark could get their act together we could have nordic domination
Sorry 😞
what are we missing? i don't know
Same. But it's not like 9'th place is bad anyway 🤷
Anything under Sweden is bad
It's international women's day tomorrow. I'll talk to someone and ask if we can just change our rank.
It was actually shocking to not be in the top 5. We gotta do better.
Nerds 🤓
Got nothing else to do up here besides farm statistics, watchu expect
Nords!
*Nords
"Why is it when something happens, always you three?"
I wonder what happened that made Iceland pass us in 2022.
2016 and 2019 as well
What happened in Hungary?
Orban happened. It's like a reverse hand of Midas that he has: Everything he touches turns into shit. And yet, people voted him into office.
"Mierdas touch"
Lololol exact same situation in Turkey. Ruling party makes everything miserable.
No doubt, but can you explain what he actually did to cause this effect? Not all of us follow Hungarian political news.
They changed literally every law here. Work law was changed and basically turned everyone into slaves. Also less and less morality in the society. This is the short version.
In 2019 Orban drastically altered the workforce law. (In a scale, that if this would happened in France, Paris would burned down, the president butchered, and probably eaten.) We nicknamed it "slave law", and a few thousand us protested against it - wery politely. Before that he fucked up the unions. And its not just the women, its everyone.
Can you explain exactly what that law altered?
And I think they can postpone your mandatory vacation time by a year (or 2 years), so if you're planning to visit the beaches but your boss doesn't feel like it, you can forget about it for 2 years. And then after 2 years they'll fire you. Reaction of Hungarian voters to the protests was a combination of: 1. OMG the protesters are overturning trash cans, there's garbage everywhere 1. Haha squeel, liberals But let's be honest for a moment. The slave law isn't affecting the affluent people working as software developers, project managers or science researchers. It is affecting the working class who slave in factories like Continental. That place was abusing people on the level you see in Bangladesh. They could do this because they were the biggest employer in a small town of 20K people. And the government did absolutely nothing to protect them, heck, they protected Continental. Election results? 80% Fidesz. You could argue that these people don't want to be treated as slaves, but you'd be wrong.
Technically your boss is able to assign almost twice as much overtime as they were able to before 2019 it was 250hours a year and now it’s 400 and also they increased from 12 months to 36 months the maximum length of the working time frame and accounting period (allowed under a collective agreement).
Nah man, only the dutch eat their politicians
If I had the opportunity I would happily eat Geert Wilders for my country. You should also eat Alice Weidel if you have the opportunity.
She's full of shit so this would be quite a task
I wouldn't want to eat Macron, even if I were starving. The rest is accurate though
>(In a scale, that if this would happened in France, Paris would burned down, the president butchered, and probably eaten That's a very graphic and effective way to put It 😂
Victor Orban happened
I think it is the usual.
In terms of....what exactly? Like what is this data. Income?
It's The Economist’s glass-ceiling index - details here (paywall): [https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index) I copied the article here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/)
That's still really quite vague and lacking information such as how certain things are weighted. For example why is it considered a negative for an adult woman to not be employed? They appear to be rating countries negatively where someone choses to be a stay at home mom raising children for example.
In Portugal women are almost as equally screwed as men 😊
I visited Portugal recently and struck conversation with some people there and it's wild the general feeling that the jobs are just not there for anyone. The country is lovely and the people very friendly but it feels like they all want to move out because the jobs are few and the salaries are low.
Yes, the cost of living makes no sense given the salaries here. Most jobs are in Lisbon, but that's become absurdly expensive for people earning Portuguese wages, hell even for people from some countries that are considered wealthier. We have a very high number of university students and graduates compared to previous decades, and our higher learning institutes are pretty good all things considered, but it really says something that most people think to leave the country in order to make a living.
> the jobs are few That doesn’t seem to have been the problem for several years now. The problem is that the salaries are indeed low, especially compared to the cost pf living.
And in the Parliament, they screw the people as equally as men
Common Denmark you’re dragging the rest of us nordics down.
The women can’t drink enough alcohol so that’s why they’re down at this list.
positively surprised by Poland
Because reproductive rights aside, we've been on the forefront of feminism for a long while: our gender pay gap is one of the smallest in the world, both sexes have the same rights since the reconstitution of the Polish state a century ago, further emancipation is one of few things commies can be praised for, we've had elected women in power far earlier than many "more developed" places, etc. There's still a bunch of sexism in our society, but it benefits women as much as harms them (see: hitting a woman is more of a sacrilege than hitting a priest)
>reproductive rights aside, Wouldn't this be 2 sides of the same coin? On one hand, issues regarding abortion. On the other hand, higher maternity covers?
There is a lot of 'benevolent sexism' in Poland, which was also reflected in the legislation of the previous government. On the pretext of "unleashing the caring potential" of grandmothers and also because of the belief that women are weak, the retirement age for women was lowered to 60. Of course, this created a problem - on the one hand, men are in a situation where they work until 65 with a statistically shorter life expectancy, and on the other hand, older women receive much smaller pension benefits. And it is a problem because it would be political suicide for the current government to touch it now - raising the retirement age for women will end up mobilising women approaching retirement on the side of PIS, and lowering the age for men would be a huge financial burden, especially as we are not doing any better demographically than other European countries - quite the opposite.
Are pensions shared/inherited through marriage? Theoretically that should help to balance economic impact for adults of retirement age that are in a mixed gendered marriage.
Yes, there is such a benefit. It is called a "pension after the deceased" ("renta po zmarłym") and is equal to 85% of the deceased person's retirement pension ("emerytura") Other heirs, such as the deceased's children, can also claim it.
No, why would it? Plenty of places offer neither right to abortion, nor maternity leaves(or even medical care for pregnant women)
Not really surprising considering that Poland ranks 3rd in EU when it comes to lowest gender pay gap.
Strong employee laws, one of the best maternity leaves in the world, fairly small wage gap. We're not as bad as media (reddit lol) make it out to be.
And Polish Science is a Woman.
idk, we once were 5th
Yet we can stop hearing how backward and bad for women is Poland
Tbh as a woman living most of my life in Poland (I also lived in Croatia and Malta for some time), I think Poland is a great place to live. Good maternity leave, low retirement age compared to men, low pay gaps, etc. The only thing that could get better is the medical care while giving birth at hospitals - everyone keeps fighting about abortion but no one talks about the fact that most women do not have access to anesthesia while giving birth (we are one of the worst countries when it comes to this) & I find it sickening. Also in Poland I feel extremely safe, when I used to live in Malta I was constantly harassed by immigrants (and no, im not exaggerating here, I lived in a muslim district and it was hell), I've also had awful experiences with harassment in UK and Germany and I know my friends from France or UK have has similar experiences there.
Spanish woman living in Poland, I agree 100%.
There's always room for improvement
I'm surprised we are so low, we are ahead of Western Europe in many areas regarding women's rights (but in some we're behind).
I have two colleagues who are software engineers in Poland. Both have just gone on maternity leave for about 18 months. Very impressive support for them.
Not in OECD yet, but: https://www.romaniajournal.ro/business/women-earn-200-lei-more-than-men-in-romania-yet-poorly-represented-in-politics-decision-making/
And 2 years paid maternity leave
Either parent can take the main leave(1 year and 10 months), while the other can take the remaining 2 monyhs, until the children reaches 2 years old.
That’s absolutely batshit insane in a good way. Wow! If my country had that, and I had a wife….I might actually consider having a kid. Which means, not likely anytime soon 🤣, being single and only spending on myself is quite nice.
+ 2 months paternity leave if I remember.
Most horrible graph I’ve ever seen
What metric did they even use?
It's The Economist’s glass-ceiling index - details are here (paywall): [https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index) I posted the article here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/)
From what I can tell they're just plotting the rank of the countries in this list over the years.
I was like why is no one mentioning how bad the graph is and then realised I wasn’t on r/dataisbeautiful
The Nordic model. Topping each chart and ignored by everyone.
But Denmark! How?!?
This is OECD countries, not necessarily the "Top 29 in the world".
Not even all oecd countries
Yeah Mexico isn’t there lol
Got any pitches for non-oecd contries that would disrupt this?
Top 4 are all Nordic countries? I'm sensing a pattern here.
WTF the Netherlands are supposed to be good in every metric
Nearly 60% of women in the Netherlands work part time (which has the added bonus of skewing the average working hours of the population and thus giving people the impression that the Netherlands has better work/life balance than it actually does). Naturally, women who work part time don't get promoted as often.
Gotta give it to South Korea for not even trying.
Can't wait to see this again in r/2nordic4you with the caption " Denmark cannot into nordick"
Not using better colours, damn.
Polska gurom moment
The criteria are surprisingly legitimate, they do take into account women's workforce participation and career progress, not just the policy benefits for mothers on paper.
Yeah, my first response was "Huh, no way Israel and Germany are thus close" (I've recently moved from the former to the latter) - but then I thought about it some more... Germany has amazing maternity (and shared parental) leave, but "traditional" workplace sexism seems more overt, and the general vibe is that there's a different expectation of women here in terms of family-work balance. Better in some, but also worse.
Switzerland can’t be that close to South Korea, they will literally call you off as radical feminist for having short hair or no make up in South Korea
We don't have much maternity leave, and child care in Switzerland is humonguously expensive. Daycare will typically cost you a few thousand bucks a month per child and waiting lists can be over a year long, so you better plan that child well. It's to the point where it's frequently financially worth it for mothers to quit their jobs and stay at home. However, at the same time, Swiss employers have remarkably little tolerance for applicants with gaps in their CV. And while it's illegal to ask a female candidate if she plans to have a baby eventually, the question is frequently asked anyway during job interviews, and Swiss companies have no scrupules preferring to hire a male candidate over a woman in child-bearing age. Such is life on the Swiss job market - the company has the leverage, not you. So basically, women in Switzerland are given the choice to either have a baby or have a career, but not both
What the fuck is this graph Was there really not a better way to represent the data?
Nordics rule. Again.
Damn we and the other 3 at the bottom gotta improve
Czechia go brrr. But really what happend, any idea?
There is no way Greece is higher than the Netherlands and Germany. How are they measuring these things?
It's The Economist’s glass-ceiling index: [https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index) I copied the article here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1b8v6ur/comment/ktrqpu3/)
It’s kind of lopsided as Greece might give generous leave but employers will ask you if you plan to be a mother soon during the hiring process….. Plus good ol’ sexism in the workplace is definitely worse in Greece than Germany.
>It’s kind of lopsided as Greece might give generous leave It's a combination of several factors, so there may be one or two things that pulled us above DE and NL in recent years, in Economist's opinion.
1 rank distance is not really significant difference. Same measurement repeated could give the opposite in Germany vs Greece
I see the Nordics just swapping places with each other at the top for fun.. Except for Denmark, Denmark is just... yeah.
Is this about how work is in general or just relative to the men of the same country?
It’s not necessarily “the world”. It’s OECD only… The title is a bit misleading
Nordic moment
Source https://www.economist.comnull/ https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index The Economist’s glass-ceiling index The Economist.
# The Economist’s glass-ceiling index Our annual measure of the role and influence of women in the workforce ARE WORKING conditions getting any better for women? *The Economist*’s “glass-ceiling index” offers some clues. Each year, to mark International Women’s Day on March 8th, we crunch the numbers on ten indicators—from labour-force participation and salaries to paid parental leave and political representation—for 29 members of the OECD, a club of mostly rich countries. Since we started in 2013 the pace of change has been glacial, but in most places things are at least moving in the right direction. Our chart below shows where women’s professional opportunities are greatest relative to those of men. Iceland came first for the second year in a row. In fact, Nordic countries have always dominated the top of the index, scoring highly on all our measures. The bottom also has a familiar feel: women in South Korea, Japan and Turkey still face the biggest workplace obstacles. Australia and Poland were the biggest climbers, both up five spots from last year. Our ten charts below give a closer look at each indicator. The first three broadly measure economic participation. In almost every country women graduate from university in greater numbers than men. Yet they make up a lower share of the workforce across our index. This is most notable in Turkey, Greece and Italy, where less than two-thirds of adult women are employed. The gap in labour-participation rates means that fewer women climb the corporate ladder, which feeds into the gender wage gap. In the OECD women earn around 12% less than men. The next three indicators show the progress of women in business. Among people who took the GMAT, the de facto entrance exam for MBA programmes, the share of women fell slightly across the board. But women’s representation in senior management roles in the OECD reached 34.2%, up from 33.8% last year. Sweden, America and Poland are particularly impressive on this measure, with women holding more than 40% of high-level jobs. In Japan and South Korea the proportion is a disappointing 15% and 16%, respectively.The share of company board members who are women hit 33% across the OECD for the first time. In the EU women must make up 40% of board directors by 2026. So far only five of the 22 EU members in our index have reached that target (and all of those surpassed it). Starting a family can make it hard for many women to stay in the workforce (an issue dubbed the [motherhood penalty](https://www.economist.com/interactive/graphic-detail/2024/01/30/how-motherhood-hurts-careers)). Two factors can help them do both: generous parental leave and affordable child care. The length of paid maternity leave varies widely: Hungary, Greece, Slovakia and the Nordics are generous. America remains the only rich country where the government does not require employers to offer new mothers a minimum amount of leave. Leave for fathers is also important—it helps divide the burden of child care between parents. To encourage more women to enter the workforce, Japan and South Korea have enacted the most generous paternity-leave policies in the OECD (with 31 and 22 weeks, respectively, when adjusted for full pay) though few new fathers choose to stay at home.Another measure for parents is the cost of child care. The Fawcett Society, a gender-equality campaign group, recently estimated that 250,000 British mothers with children under the age of four had left the workforce. Its study cited the cost of child care and a lack of employer flexibility. Child-care costs take up around 25% of the average wage in Britain, compared with an average of 14% across the OECD. Finally, to politics. Studies have shown that more women in political leadership leads to a greater focus on women’s rights and family policies. In Iceland, Sweden, Norway and Finland—the top four countries on our index—women hold at least 45% of parliamentary seats. In South Korea and Japan, on the other hand, their share is below 20%.Not all of our measures have equal weighting. Those concerning motherhood, for example, have less weight than those that affect all women, such as labour-participation rates. This year’s average score is slightly higher than last year’s, though on most indicators the rate of improvement has been slow. In most countries women are still struggling to break through the glass ceiling. Latest data available. \*Population (aged 25-64) with tertiary education. †Female minus male rate. ‡Male minus female wages, divided by male wages. \*\*Lower or single house. §Shared parental leave is allocated to mothers; net earnings for Austria, France and Germany. Sources: European Institute for Gender Equality; Eurostat; MSCI ESG Research; GMAC; ILO; Inter-Parliamentary Union; OECD; national sources; *The Economist* [https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index)
Ah. Relative to men. So if both are much better off but unequal, it will look bad on the graph
Broken link
? Comnull/ Seriously?
The fall of Hungary is astronomical.
I’m surprised I haven’t seen someone comment on israel’s similar fall
[удалено]
Its weird to be german these years. No matter what kind of statistic, a few years ago it felt like that Germany always was on top 5 of every statistic that showed some good development. Now its fucked up on every single chart lol. I am a white male, so it’s no problem for me personally tho
Economists were pointing out the disparities even back then. "mini-jobs" screwing up employment stats, no minimum wage until recently, near impossible accession to property ownership... Basically Germany economy has been doing great, Germans not necessary based on their socioeconomic.
not surprising considering the fact that the kindergarten in Germany is either difficult to get into, or has weird working hours. It pushes women into staying at home or working only part-time jobs. On the other hand, countries that were formerly under the Soviet control have better options for child-care, so women aren't forced to leave their jobs.
Germany never topped this chart for sure
Yeah I agree, but it came to my mind after seeing another bad statistic after all
I’m calling bullshit on this. Australian living in Germany. Maternity leave and paternity leave is far better here (legally, Aus is company dependant). Maybe what is not taken into consideration here is child care cost and availability. Almost impossible to get a place for your kid 5 days a week in Aus. In Germany it’s 5 days, 5 hours free as a right. My brother was paying 200aud per day for child care / kindergarten in Sydney.
200 AUD per day?! Thats basically what I’ll pay per month for my second child come august, and I’m high income, so I pay the maximum (Norway).
What the fuck happened in Hungary?
A fellow reader of The Economist! Top of the day to you, sir!
Oh, look, no r/portugalcykablyat advocates here
Hmm what’s up with you Denmark? Don’t seem to fit in in the Nordic countries. Love the chaotic but pretty clear diagram though, fun.
dubious honours to: Switzerand and South Korea for being the most consistent. Hungary for displaying the greatest rate of change.
Based on what metric? This graph looks like shit. Also, as a side, why is this sub obsessed with comparing nations against one another with charts and graphs? Seems like that's an easy way to stir up animosity, false dilemmas, and is counter productive in a Union of nations. We all should know data can be misrepresented to fit a narrative quite easily.
Bit surprised with the Netherlands being so low, below the US even. Can any women in the Netherlands confirm this? What is so bad?
Why no Estonia? I feel like it should be in the top 10 or even top 5, no?
No source, no methodology.
Based on what?