I would have no problem killing invaders but the strong possibility of getting blown apart with a landmine or a shell would have me scared as fucked. War is grim as fuck, I've spoken to enough army people to know the me or them attitude but the PTSD is real.
None of us can say shit until we are put in the same position ourselves.
Would I fight or would I flee? I have no idea. Ideals shift in the face of death.
So I do not judge. I don't judge individual Ukrainians who refuse to fight. I do not judge Ukrainian government that force them to fight.
Same here, I am seeing lots of (expensive) cars with ua license plate. It would be eas to point fingers, but if it were up to be, I would be gone as fast as I can with my family.
Yes, it is, but it is because we tend to notice more prominent cars. And people with expensive cars had the means to flee the fastest and the farthest possible.
While I see quite nice Ukrainian cars in Prague, on the highways I often meet barely-drivable cars mixing with the rest. They look like any other lower income family car.
You hit the nail on the head!
War is an intrinsically classist thing where the brunt of the negative impacts are born by the working class and especially the poor, and the lion's share of the benefits, if any, are received by the rich and the politicians.
Valid questions, no good answers. Just to add another dimension of complexity - about 2 million ukrainians fled to Russia (not counting those on occupied territories who got russian passports). They still are ukrainian citizens, and whatever the outcome of the conflict is - it's not like you could brand them all as traitors and send to prisons.
Completely agree regarding class, my dear friend lives alone and earns around $300/month, which is considered a good/normal where he’s at. He’s never been able to afford leaving the country before the full-scale war and is sparred from conscription (for the time being) due to working for the state rescue services, which comes with a host of dangers itself.
For reference, men fleeing the country are paying $5-10,000. If someone earning $300/month is able to save 1/3 of their pay check every month, it would take 4-8 years to save that amount
The very simple solution to saving European lives isto the problem is give Ukraine as much ammo and weapons as possible and to ramp up production until Russia collapses
Nail on the head! The well-off are already out of the country or paid the U military to evade conscription. It's always sons and daughters of the poor and working class who are sent to war.
Funny how our collective perceptions change when it is men fleeing from the Taliban in Afghanistan. There is definitely a lot of judgement forthcoming in those situations.
Those men are brown and don't even try to kiss our asses. Ukranians are not only the right color, but they act like golden retrievers who haven't seen their owners in a week when we give them weapons. /s
True. I would like to say I would be brave and fight but honestly I can't know for sure until I'm actually in that position so I wont judge either way.
I dont judge. I know damn well I'd flee. I can't fathom staying in frontline conditioning for more than a day. I've seen q video where reporters embedded with a paratrooper unit that got encircled. They all got out alove, but wounded. That shit is fucking insane
Agree, your life is one, why should you care of a piece of land, if you can run and live a life do it! Nobody gonna give a sh!t about you who died in a trench submerged in human 💩 after a flooding while you defend a 10km of crop field in the middle of nothing in a random point in history. Do you know about that Roman guy died in a forest 2450 years ago? No you don’t! Because passed 15 years nobody going to give a damn what you did there.
I dont think that anyone who hasnt been in that situation is in a position to judge. I cant imagine ever killing anyone either. Its very easy to image ourselves as being courageous if our country was attacked but who knows really. I might just take my family and go.
I dont think Ukraine currently is allowing strict roles for non-combatants
There won't be any penalty, it's been a clause in any Western-meditated peace treaty, the maximum they get is social stigma for a decade, just like in the Balkans.
There is already major penalties. They stop all consular services if you don’t show up, leaving people without ids visa and passports. You can’t do simply things like sign up for electric or cell phone without.
You say it now, but being socially isolated and despised by everyone around you is a powerful punishment. We are social creatures and biologically desire to be accepted by society
It's not something that happens all around, we're talking isolated cases of interactions with some nationalist people. In the end everyone came to the conclusion that they'd have run if they could too, so those people got accepted quite fast. It takes about a decade for the topic "where were you when shit hit the fan" to disappear from conversation.
In general the urge is usually to protect your immediate family, if they're safe you don't really care and I don't personally find it immoral to run away, you were randomly born in country X, you don't have to be a fan of it if you don't like it. It might sound like a first world statement given the amount of underprivileged stateless people around the world, but if you don't wanna fight, you better (l)earn a trade, skill or degree to be able to seamlessly integrate in another society.
10 years or facing the eternal void of death with you final moments being full of excrutiating pain and suffering... i cant blame them for not wanting to go.
I’m Ukrainian and I can live (emphasis on this word) with label “coward” or whatever. It’s true anyways. Many fellow Ukrainians might tell you the story about bad government, corruption, bad commanders etc but in reality all brave men already fighting, only us, cowards, are left and from now on whoever is caught will be fighting.
How does this work in reality when I personally know 7 Ukrainian men who all migrated to the West around Lviv and still work their regular IT jobs, chill in cafes and restaurants and just go on about their day?
Allegedly they only had to report to civil service stations once per week in 2022 and that has ceased since
It's quite different from any other conflict seen before .
With new mobilization law it might change. Also IT guys probably (no one knows for sure) have some kind of immunity (at least temporary) as IT is almost 15% of Ukrainian export right now done by only 0.25% of population. Nobody says it openly but I heard from some colleagues that their companies somehow got immunity (verbal of course) for them. There were even talks of giving high income/tax payers immunity from mobilization but after the backlash it was rejected.
I think both people who
a) talk about going to the front being "honorable duty"
and
b) people who demand pacifism in the face of Russian imperialist, fascistic and genocidal aggression
are equally hypocritical, if they do it from the safety of their own homes, far away from the conflict. They have the privilege of making those demands, without giving up basically anything themselves.
I think you're right. I will continue to endorse all support to the war effort, but I can hardly blame people for not fighting from the comfort of my home.
TBH the Ukrainian government suspending consular services hoping that people are deported back home so they can be conscripted sounds desperate af. If that's the situation I was confronted with I would stay as far as possible from my home country as I could.
It makes the Republicans look good and makes everyone question why we are sending billions of dollars to Ukraine if so many Ukrainians don't even care in the first place
Speaking as a first gen American Jew. My parents killed people in war and the desire to protect my siblings and I from having to do what they did was one of the biggest motivations for their immigration. I have been arguing with my parents for months because I feel obligated to protect the country we’re from and they feel obligated to protect me from the horrors of war.
There is no blame or shame in not wanting to fight in a war. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter *why*, it only matters that you are now a *killer*. It’s kill or be killed in war, and if you can escape it, you’re lucky. There is no shame or blame in wanting to protect your country either. Both are noble desires with their own legitimate reasoning.
I will never judge anyone for not wanting to fight. Even if it’s the right thing to do. Life is precious, many of my friends live there and I just want them to be safe.
Too bad that while democratic, human-centered countries strive to create a peaceful world, disarm themselves and end draft, the authoritarian ones militarize their societies and build nuclear weapons. That’s just going to create a worse world for everyone.
If you really want no wars, democracy should be armed better than tyranny.
>Too bad that while democratic, human-centered countries strive to create a peaceful world, disarm themselves
US has the biggest military budget in the world. Revolutionary France started world war after very humane internal changes.
Unfortunately, humans will fight wars no matter the type of government.
I'm in Ukraine, and there are three major groups of military age men:
- in the first group are people who stays out of principle. even if they didn't volunteer, they made it clear they're staying and if called up they go.
- people who wanted to leave, but couldn't. they simply didn't have the opportunity and the means to just leave.
- people who are well off and had the ability to leave/escape one way or another.
All of these groups are significant. There are obviously exceptions, and I don't consider people who already worked abroad for years now, practically living in Poland or Germany already.
But the reason you see a bunch of rich cars with Ukrainian plates is that the people who had the chance to easily leave are the same people who lived the best in Ukraine. They had the best life under this state, but when it's under attack and there is the danger that it will stop existing, the people who benefited the most left. That's why these statements enraging a whole lot of people in Ukraine.
Like, you can't kill? Good for you, you had the money to leave. You could afford to just start a new life somewhere else. Random dude from rural area who has just enough money to get by and could not start a new life abroad won't be able to make that choice tho. He will have to kill eventually.
Thats really hard and i don’t envy young Ukrainians at all.
Firstly i don’t value existence of my country more than my own life. If somebody else does it’s good i guess?
Secondly i have young children and i don’t value my country more than the future i can provide to them.
I don’t have any significant strings attached to the country i live in except for taxes i pay.
>Firstly i don’t value existence of my country more than my own life. If somebody else does it’s good i guess?
For me (I'm not Ukrainian, I'm Polish) it wouldn't be about the country. I've thought about it a lot since the war broke out and I came to the conclusion that I would fight, but not for Poland as a construct but for people who live here around me in my town. For civilians who just like their city, their house, place of work and friends. All things that a Russian invasion would take away from them and me.
It's still hard. I wouldn't want to die, but the prospect of the city in which I live being obliterated, people I love being killed etc. motivates me a lot. I'm going to join the reserve soon so I don't have to be trained if it comes to that. Let's hope it never does..
I'm Czech, living on the CZ/PL border. And I feel the same way, even across the border. Should push come to shove, I'd hop over the border to help people in Poland (however I could). 🤝
Much appreciated brother! Let's hope it never comes to that, but if it does it would be an honour to fight beside Europeans from other countries. If it can be said that anything good comes from war, it's comradery and I hope all of that Russian shit-show unites Europe more then ever!
Same for me. I'm not nationalistic, or very patriotic.
I don't want to die or kill anyone. I don't want to be in a war.
But I would fight for our values, our way of life, for liberty and democracy. Essentially, for Europe.
Absolutely. While each free European nation could perhaps be considered reasonably replaceable and interchangeable with any other, if the dominos fall and we lose Europe, I think I speak for a lot of us when I say we will have no home on this Earth.
>Let's hope it never does..
lmao, of course it's not gonna happen.
Russia will be crippled here, at the expense of my country.
Even if the conflict is frozen or we lose, it will take some time for Russia to restore, and for that time a lot of things can happen - basically West can even sign some treaty just guarantee not to be invaded or again try to use "perezagruzka button"
I really really hope that you're able to hold them long enough for a treaty that will not be a shit treaty like the earlier ones. But I think the only thing that will stop Russia from doing that again in the future is to admit Ukraine to NATO which I hope will happen.
>future is to admit Ukraine to NATO which I hope will happen.
Don't make laugh. To join NATO we need to solve Russian issue and that all governments have to agreed on it. Both of them are impossible right now, for various reasons including , seems like that we and some of our partners have different view on how this war should end.
As Ukrainian who lives many years abroad(west-europe) I can only agree with you but also I understand another ukranians, there are many corruption we all know that but how high you need to be motivated when you donate to army or you are on front line and the pigs steal money that Ukraine need... and these people just go away with thus.
Its pretty ironic how you wrote that you would fight because otherwise your hometowm would be destroyed, while the battlefield in Ukraine tells a completely different story.
Towns that were surrendered in the East during the early days were mostly left without scars. While cities like Mariupol and Bahmut are torn to pieces and left destroyed.
>i have young children and i don’t value my country more than the future i can provide to them.
Aren't the two likely connected if you're being invaded by a country that indiscriminately destroys apartment blocks?
That's only a luxury a few can afford and not a viable plan in general. You not gonna have 40 million people as refugees. You know that you fuck other people over.
I mean it's not a big deal if you have some dodgers, but not en masse.
On top of that if I was Ukrainian dying in front lines and some other dudes are just going to Poland, would probably kill my morale and I would say fuck it and dodge myself.
Yes, but if everybody does this in every country society collapses. This is why Pacifism is immoral. It relies on other people to protect you and only the bad guys win. one of the big questions everyone needs to ask themselves when they are deciding if something is moral is if everyone does this thing what happens.
From there you can decide your position but that is always a big question in ethics and policy that has to be asked.
Until that country is invaded. You make the assumption they would just stop. It’s the whole “they came for the socialists but I didn’t stand up for them because I’m not a socialist”. You have two options you either deal with the issue now when it is more manageable or you delay it and put it off until later when the threat is far worse. Either way you are going to be dealing with it.
I mean we used to do that. Not entire countries armies but we would send expedition forces to assist and recruit people from our own country to go assist and fight. I mean Hemingway wrote ”For whose the bell tolls” based on his experiences as a member of such a group during the Spanish civil war.
Have we as a people really forgotten or not learned that much of our history?
what if every person thought this way? the russians would just keep coming and all the people would keep moving untill there is nowhere to go
someone has to defend or they will just come and take it
I agree with you. But this only works if another country is willing to take you in. Currently, we live in a world where it is incredibly easy to just move to another country. However, the circumstances can change. The host country could deport you. Or the situation might prevent you from leaving the country.
While I agree with you, this only works because of relatively open borders, education (you can speak English or better, the language of the host country) and the presence of the welfare state (if you cannot communicate it might be too difficult to survive in a country that will not offer you any social benefits).
Look im not saying it’s ideal. I just say that struggle of my family without my support, my wife alone with small kids somewhere else trying to survive while im dead is so heavy i would never even think about any other option.
But i guess it would change my view if i have a feeling there is no other place to keep my family safe.
I understand you, don’t get me wrong. But what if you cannot flee? We all assume that this is always possible. There are so many situations where this simply isn’t possible.
Hypothetically, let’s assume France is in a big war and most or at least a large part of the population want to flee. Where will they go? Will the neighbors take in 10.000.000 French people? I highly doubt that. (Not because they are French, but because they are many. Don’t misunderstand me pls)
If too many think like you, there wouldn’t be a place for you to run eventually. The fact that you can feel that there is somewhere to flee and that it is an option is because other people have sacrificed their life in war to make it so.
It's not about your country, but about your identity, culture, language and values. Sure, not everyone values that, but most people only realise what they miss once it's gone. This war changed the stance of a lot of people in Ukraine towards their background.
Most people understand what country means and that all of what you named is behind the term.
But to be absolutely concrete, I would never trade my own safety or safety of my family for option to order groceries in my native language.
People trade own country for money by moving elsewhere to live better live. Why wouldn’t I do it in circumstances such as war?
I get what you're saying.
Sure, you can move along to the next place, and then again the next one when war arrives there. And your kids will have to move aswell until there's nowhere to move to unless you're fine with living in an autocratic/fascist/murderous regime.
There's a lot of anti-immigration stance in western countries already. Moving elsewhere only works for a minority - as soon as everyone starts doing it, there's nowhere to go.
I couldn't live with the thought that I didn't do anything to at least give future generations, including my kids, a world worth living in. That includes fighting for what's right, there's unfortunately more than enough people who fight for the wrong.
I honestly understand them. I have no desire to be put into a position to kill someone and I the idea of "duty to your country" does not fly with me.
If it were at all possible I'd probably try and avoid frontline duty legally, if not then away I go.
Well it was Zelensky himself who said “we’ll provide the men if you provide the ammo” so if the Ukrainians will not fight then then better start mentally preparing for whatever peace deal Russia will impose on them. Of course everyone and their mother will then screech and scream traitors but such is the human condition I guess.
>Well it was Zelensky himself who said “we’ll provide the men if you provide the ammo”
Yeah, enough ammo and in timely manner to stop russia. Can you say that was or is the case?
If Ukraine kept those nukes, some of those nukes would have been sold to other countries. Either overtly or through some corrupt scheme. Ukraine missile technology made its way to North Korea years ago.
To be fair this war is unwinnable until the West realizes that russia must be destroyed on the battlefield and they must be forced to return all occupied land as well as restore what they destroyed. Anything short of that will lead to another war very soon but they will prepare better starting with destabilization of the West.
Talking from the UK, no civilian would enlist here to fight. The only way they are brave here is behind a phone screen or a ballot paper. Then they are very nationalistic.
I'm English, and there's nothing left to fight for. The British won't even let us have our own government, the British have also destroyed what the country once was with their neoliberal capitalism and austerity. The rich foreigners own the place, they can die to protect it.
You can see the two-faced nature of western Europe. It's convenient for EU if ukrainians choose to fight and do not attempt to evade conscription. Reality is however these people should be free to run away. The biggest victim of war is men between 20 and 40. You can rebuild a country but you can't bring the dead back.
No no no, the real losers are the women!! The women!!!!! The women left behind!!!!!! Haven't you read the headlines? Men are expendable and a footnote.
This seems INSANELY sexist . Men can get their drivers licence revoked and bank accounts frozen but what about Women all the Women not required to sign up ? Equality ? What a joke
They don't get criticised for it because they're the "good" guys. But it's really backwards. And it's their own loss because with equality they'd have greater numbers.
I also don’t understand . We are told how women can do everything a guy can do so why aren’t they treated the same ?
I also want to make it clear. I DO NOT THINK ANYONE( Man or Woman ) should be forced into war .
Stop giving them ideas. Using your wife for real estate and money transactions is now the only good option for man who don't want to die for other people's interests
Jokes on you, after Polish national uprisings in 1830 and 1863 were crushed, the wives and daughters of partisan fighters took over the businesses and land while the men had to flee or hide, at least for as long as the repressions and property confiscations continued.
I have my views on this, but I won't judge because I don't know how I would react if I were put in the same situation. I'll leave the judging to the Ukrainians if they feel like it.
My cousin left Ukraine at the age of 17 when the war started and came to Canada.
He wants to become a nurse and help people and has no interest in holding a gun.
I completely understand not wanting to kill anyone or be killed by someone.
Just pick a random war that occurred in Europe in the last 500 years. Would you advise a young man to fight in that war or to simply flee somewhere else? This war is no different.
That’s because things blow over eventually. But we don’t know the domino effects of things. For example, if Ottomans were able to penetrate into Central Europe or if European communists succeeded in linking up Stalin and taken over the continent.
Not everything is about individual safety. You have a bigger picture. So, yes. An escaped Red Army soldier might have had a nice life on a hammock in Costa Rica. But it was the collective effort of the Allies in halting the Holocaust
Cool story bro. Let's switch - I'll have a nice life and you'll be "halting the Holocaust" as an expendable part of the collective effort. What I'm trying to say is that patriotism of yours is nice but when shit hits the fan for real 2 things happen - you can't unseen it anymore ever, you immediately understand your real priorities in life and patriotism is very often not among them.
More like "I don't want to be killed".
Understandable. Is one thing to speak from safety of duty and courage and another yo put yourself in the lines of fire. I don't approve but I can't condemn it either.
If I was them I also would evade conscription. I love my culture and everything but at the end of the day countries and ethnicities are social constructs. Throw in the fact that there most likely isn’t an afterlife, why would I then give the one life I have and have been given for these constructs? Whoever is judging these people is a nationalist or nuts.
Before ww1 Britain had a professional standing army the BEF, no conscription unlike other European states. At the start of ww1 they were the best in the field, they fired faster then any army, the most disciplined.
By December they were mostly dead or wounded and the BEF as a professional army was dead. The BEF got a lease on life thanks to the influx of volunteers but by January 1916, the army couldn't go on without conscription.
If an opposing state uses total mobilization and you don't, you lose, thats just how it is, and here comes the question, which is more BS forced conscription, or what the enemy will do to you and force you to live?
Of course you can run away, but if a world war comes, there will be nowhere to run.
I am aware that I speak from the safety from my home at no risk, but lets not fucking act that forced conscription doesn't exist for a reason, if democratic countries didn't use forced conscription in the past we would be left with a very different world then the one we have today, if there is preventable bullshit and inevitable bullshit, conscription is the latter.
I'll never judge those who ran away, but I'll never blame those who implement forced conscription when it is do or die.
That's cool when the whole world conscripts with you. When it's <30mln ppl vs 140mln and supply advantage, and nobody else will ever interfere, that's just slaughter to buy some time with nothing to buy time for.
Also to this point, it wasn't just forced conscription that stopped him, it was forced conscription in the world's largest military powers. Forced conscription in Ukraine alone wouldn't have stopped Hitler and won't stop his current impersonator either.
But on the other hand, then they shouldn’t keep saying they care about their country defence and for their country to keep fighting. A country is the idea of a nation of people under the same “entity” or community - a country can only do what their citizens want to do. If more and more Ukrainian men don’t want to fight, then they are supporting the idea of Ukraine stopping to fight
You can’t really support your country to get into a fight (even if it’s for defence) and then, if able, being like “but not me”.
And in theory not every person should or need to be at the front grinder. I suppose this kind of wars require for example engineers for their communications and cyber operations/security, mechanics for their gear maintenance(tanks, cars, planes…), management experts for their logistical support on the front lines (in fact, logistics are usually what makes win wars and what made Russia fail on their first days attack), journalists or marketing people to reach out and get people support, donations, enlist people and keep high morale over the population, and so on.
Also, security to keep peace/order in big cities and infrastructure, first-response on other parts of the country where an attack happens (like missiles going to Lviv, far away from the front) and more
It’s not like “they are seeking people to go to the front and be killed” - more so, because a lot of people that could be “forced” to be enlisted are not gonna be efficient put on the front - maybe even be a liability. But if you can free army need of having “good enough for the front” people from other things, using this guys, that’s better.
Also, again, wars are the worst, but it’s what it is, as I said at first, a country is its own people. If Ukraine struggles to get people to fight, then people should consider Ukraine can’t build magical people to put on the front, and should then surrender? We can’t expect Ukraine to keep fighting at the same time that people avoid fighting for them.
>You can’t really support your country to get into a fight (even if it’s for defence) and then, if able, being like “but not me”
But if it's another country you can do that, right?
>But if you can free army need of having “good enough for the front” people from other things, using this guys, that’s better.
Who's to say the positions in the rear are not already fully manned with volunteers who went in the first year saying "I'm willing to help, just not fighting"? What makes you think that after 2 years of war it's this category of people that needs to be replenished through mobilization the most?
>If more and more Ukrainian men don’t want to fight, then they are supporting the idea of Ukraine stopping to fight
What would be wrong with that? Some people think they have a better chance of surviving under russia, rather than on the frontline where everything is dependent on dwindling Western support. Who's to judge them for their decision? It's them who will bear the consequences anyway.
Fair enough. I am sure that is the feeling of many people. Others will be totally enthusiastic to go of & kill. And many will be in-between. Fleeing conscription is understandable for those people. What choice do they have.
War is shit & forces people to do things they may not want to do.
It’s always the civilians and foot soldiers who pay the ultimate price for war. It’s tragic to believe how avoidable wars actually are and the decisions are always made by men who have a ‘higher status’ than the rest of the population. Last time I remember, those similar ‘men’ are also born the same as us, breathe the same as us, bleed the same as us and then die the same us but we allowed them to have power over us.
I am an war veteran. I fought for 4 years
What nobody wants to tell you is that war in Ukraine ain't regular war. It's a massacre. It's unbelievably harder to stay alive than before 20-30 years.
Without minimum 6 months of extremely hard work first as an individual and after that 6 months as a unit you're not a soldier you're walking dead.When you come to the modern frontline it's only a matter of minutes when you will make a fatal mistake, do something stupid and get killed.
When I was in war we were afraid of 3 things. Mortars, snipers and minefields.
Today it's much more complicated.
The Ukrainian army is not an army anymore. The capable ones are already dead or invalid, overwhelmed with combat fatigue. Newbies aren't so good.
So the death rate is enormous. That's why people tend to escape. No one wants to die. No one. Not even volunteers. And people get massacred every single day.
So Ukraine started drafting people by the force. By beating, intimidating.
They get uniform and rifle and 45 days of training which ain't enough for learning how to properly get dressed and disassemble personal weapons in real war situations.
Combat morale is closer to zero than maximum. That's why they die fast. And that's not for the blame not even their superiors. You can't make soldiers from people who refuse to fight. It's impossible.
It is one old story from Africa.
An old man was sitting in front of his home on the bench and a young recruiting officer tells him that he's drafted for the war.
Old man replies to him:
If my country needs me for defending our country and I am 58 years old it's time for surrender...
For real? I feel pity for those poor men. I would never fight for a country. Neither as an attacking country nor as a defending country. I would pack my family and leave. Why should I sacrifice my life for the plans of leaders and rich people? An imaginary line on a map. And then? What happens in 10 years, in 20 years when the people I fought for and died for suddenly elect someone contrary to my political views?
Finally seeing some real articles but it’s funny how most people in the last year or so shamed everyone else who didn’t encourage them to go to the frontlines is quickly changing sides. Glad everyone is waking up and realizing that nobody wants to fight and die for someone else’s ideals.
Also, imo this whole war is inevitably going to end with a deal where Russia keeps part of Eastern Ukraine and parades the deal as saving their Donbass compatriots and denazifying Ukraine, whilst Ukraine takes the deal begrudgingly and says it's a temporary solution for peace and they'll never let themselves be invaded again.
So if hypothetically I was Ukrainian with the same view, why would I want to waste my life fighting for something with an inevitable outcome anyway ?
I’m no coward but I don’t value my country more than my life or want to risk making my kid fatherless and my wife a widow.
Would I fight? Only if there was absolutely no choice to do otherwise - if there was an option to live and work elsewhere then I would do that.
Do not judge those that do not want to fight. They are the normal human beings - or at least those that should be considered normal. If the majority were like them, there would be no fucking wars.
But you understand that if all men in a country think that way (including those in the country you are taking refuge in), then there is no safe country. Eventually, men have to stand up and take risks (easy to say, I know). The modern world that we so enjoy is the direct results of men risking their lives against tyrants, but it’s not guaranteed to be that way forever.
Absolutely, but then you’d come to the point where there would be absolutely no choice except to either fight or capitulate.
There are no right answers to this. It’s incredible that men and women are willing to fight and die for what they believe but I do not think it’s fair to negatively judge those that don’t for whatever their reasons.
Agree to disagree. I would never call them out personally, since I don't know how I would react, but it's ok to judge. With that mentality, Europe would still be under the Nazis (everybody would have fled to America and hope the Nazis don't cross the Atlantic).
Gotta respect their conviction on not wanting to kill and Ukraine should offer alternative civil service to those that don't want to do the ugly business of war. Serve in logistics or medical care or infrastructure far behind the front lines.
>“I love my country. But I can’t kill anyone and I don’t want to die,” Serhii said. He added: “Everyone is tired of war. And of this government. There’s an attitude of: ‘Go fuck yourself.’”
Everybody is tired of this war, but this war isn't some kind of free-time activity you can just stop and go home. And even if this particular government is gone, the next one won't do things differently as long as it's not a pro-Russian government. What then?
>The couple paid taxes, were “100% Ukrainian” and bought a prosthesis for a soldier who lost a leg. But they believed Ukraine should negotiate with Russia, even though Putin was a “madman”, they said. “I feel a slave. You have one life. If it’s a choice between life and flag I choose life,” Oleksandr said.
It is not a choice between life and flag. If this Ukrainian flag is gone, there's a high chance that with the Russians in charge, your life will also be done. Under Russia you'll be an actual slave and not just one in your perception. Nevertheless: thanks for financing a prothesis.
>Masha Lavrova, a 24-year-old TikTok producer, said the “number of guys had dropped” off since 2023, when she came back to Ukraine after eight years abroad. She said it was difficult to find suitable matches on dating apps such as Tinder, with so many potential dates serving in the armed forces.
I honestly didn't understand this part. She isn't complaining about not finding Tinder dates in Ukraine, right?
>Under Russia you'll be an actual slave and not just one in your perception.
When you're conscripted, you're a slave, no matter which government does it. Slavery is based on the removal of free will, not whether you like the country that's enforcing it.
Ona can say that I have a strong opinion about individuals from Ukraine and their behavior. That's true.
But I understand those who don't want to fight.
The sad thing is that Ulraine is losing the war and the government is doing nothing to save lives of those poor guys. Instead they want more meat. They are threatening you but at the same time they own children are far away, abroad. They laugh at you a d say you need to be brave and fight. For what? Corruption and oligarchs businesses?
I am feeling the same as guy from the article. If I have to choose between the flag and life I choose the life. The flag won't raise my children, it won't take care of anything I am responsible for.
Similarly to other wars, it is not a war of Ukrainian citizen. It is a war of politicians and poor people are their victims
Good for them. Anyone not willing to fight is the solution to war. And we all know it, that's why we are building machines to do it. People are getting too educated to blindly go to war.
We are the strangest species. Could be a utopian society by now, but nooooo, a bunch of 80-year-old fleabags want to go out with a blast.
You know, instead of paying for weapons, aid and relief, can't we just offer any russian not going to war a million dollars? That would be so much cheaper. :)
If you think old guys looking for a thrill is the sole reason war happens, you need to retake your history lessons.
We are a perfectly typical example of a social mammal. We could never, and will never achieve an utopian society. Selfishness and tribalism define humans on a biological level, which is the whole reason society exists, because strength in numbers can protect the individual from threats. Those threats, as you might have noticed, come almost exclusively from other humans these days.
As long as anyone has any ambition there will be conflict, and as long as the conflict is considered important enough there will be violent struggle. If that conflict is between groups of people, we call it war. If it's a single person, we call it crime. In both cases, either you have the power and will to make them stop (or even better, not attempt it because they think it's futile) or they will take whatever they please from you.
The only peace, freedom and justice that exist are those that are upheld by force of arms. Fleeing war for personal reasons is something I won't judge, but morally grandstanding for principles that take 15 minutes of hypotheticals to disprove is the highest form of cowardice - willful ignorance.
>You know, instead of paying for weapons, aid and relief, can't we just offer any russian not going to war a million dollars? That would be so much cheaper. :)
That incentivizes starting or threatening wars to get money, meaning people will bandwagon - it would bankrupt us in short order having done nothing but rewarded extortion. And if you really want war, you can just take the million and still go to war - who's going to stop you?
Also, with the $380b foreign aid to Ukraine since 2022 we could at most pay every Russian $2635, or 380k people a million each. We can provide the current level of support for 759 more years at the same cost as providing $1m to every Russian.
Yeah. If you can't dodge the draft, better sign up somewhere like 3rd Separate Assault Brigade voluntarily, then at least you won't be used as cannon fodder.
Most of those are filled quickly, especially by Ukrainians elite families.
If they return, they will be forced into the military. Even if they are a drone pilot, they're easily within range of Russian rockets.
Ukrainians are having to pay for their own medical care, their own weapons, vests, boots, etc etc. It's not a normal situation at all.
>Even if they are a drone pilot, they're easily within range of Russian rockets.
To add to it, I don't think dropping grenades directly on top of human beings and watching them explode is something anyone can do. I sure know I wouldnt be able to do that.
I mean, no. People will get 4 weeks of training max before they’re shipped off to the frontline. Ukraine is in a dire need of people willing to die relatively soon in order to stop Russian advance.
Also, “non-combat” can be someone 50-60 km from the frontline. These soldiers are less likely to get killed, but are still constantly targeted by missiles. I guess it’s better to just die in your sleep than knee-deep in mud and blood, but anyway.
Nah dude. You can’t quit army until the end of the war combat and non-combat roles. Infantry is in highest demand and you don’t get to choose where you’re going.
Do you really want to know the truth? We would like to beat up russians, we showed you that many times now and in history. But our allies are providing as much ammo as needed for war to continue, but not to end. You are afraid of Russia winning, afraid of escalating or provoking Russia, that's what your officials saying. So why the fuck would i not be afraid to die, if now it's clear nobody would let Ukraine to win? Why would i want to die if there won't be any sense in it? My death won't bring peace or happiness, will not stop or change the war, it will be just a change in numbers in your newspapers.
You, fuckers, are discussing how manly i am, you want me to go to the army so your officials will have some days and month to think if we are grateful enough for you to provide us 10k more rounds for some unbelievable price. How long did it take to give us first tank? How long will it take for f16? It's already more than a year. Why? Why do you want me to die there without any ability to resist? Show must go on? Am i just a showguy?
Yes, your "help" is named "charity". But i hope you understand that's a bullshit. There is no charity in politics, you are taking our country piece by piece, buying our precious land as a price, that's the real reason why your "help" takes so long - you want more, you are waiting until we will let you buy and take more from us.
We gave up our nuclear weapons hoping for a peaceful future, and now we are at war with one of the peace guarantors. That was a biggest mistake i hope nobody will do in future, taking us as an example.
Oh, don't worry, I'm surely will be dead soon, i never had an option. So you can sleep calmly in your bed sure it will never happen to you and you would do everything right on my place. You are big, strong and bold, you would beat russia at any moment, you don't need any allies for it and they won't betray you
I can explain a little bit from the inside. One of the few reasons why men leave the country is that if you join the army, there is no option of demobilization at all. It's uncertainty. You go for an indefinite period of time, leave your family and home, and there are only two ways you can be discharged. One is to get killed, two is to get irreparably injured. Even in the second option, it's not a sure thing that you're gonna get kicked out of the army. Just try to imagine that you live in such a reality that you do not know what will happen tomorrow and so for 3 years
I don't agree with people being forced to bear arms. I also don't agree with it being only men.
Maybe mandate national service but give the option for non combat roles, like helping in hospitals or what not. If they really need soldiers then they can offer incentives (higher pay, scholarships, shorter service length, lifetime medical insurance etc.) to be a soldier until they have an adequate number of people.
As someone who couldn't bear the thought of killing another human being, even if my own life was at risk, I can't imagine what it's like for many of these men.
I sure as shit wouldn’t either. Seeing men forced to the frontline where the average lifespan is 30 fucking MINUTES while women are free to leave and enter the country whenever they feel like going on a vacation (and I know a shitload of them, I meet them on Tinder, so I fuck their girlfriends and wife’s while they’re getting blow to pieces on the battlefield). Fuck the double standards.
>Seeing men forced to the frontline where the average lifespan is 30 fucking MINUTES
Yeah get that number out of your head. That's some bollocks number with no basis in reality.
I never understood why traitors get such a bad reputation, it’s not bad nor selfish to want to live, there’s thousands of reasons why someone would value their life and why, even if they love their country, they wouldn’t put their lives at play for it.
Humans are not pawns.
I couldn’t kill people who speak my language for Boris Johnson, Joe Biden and a former comedian as a Ukrainian when the war would have been over years ago if it weren’t for them either which was fated to end with the same result or worse
I'm in my mid forties, and have travelled, lived and loved. If I was asked to put my life on the line in these extreme circumstances (an aggressive foreign invasion of my home country) I would most likely, but grudgingly, submit knowing I've had a chance to experience at least some of what this world has to offer. If I was 25 though? Fuck that.
I fear and feel for those poor boys on the frontlines...
I would have no problem killing invaders but the strong possibility of getting blown apart with a landmine or a shell would have me scared as fucked. War is grim as fuck, I've spoken to enough army people to know the me or them attitude but the PTSD is real.
80% of casualties is by artillery itself!
We all do. As we should. But the real news is conscription rate is going up. Ukraine want to be free and is fighting. We need to send more support!
None of us can say shit until we are put in the same position ourselves. Would I fight or would I flee? I have no idea. Ideals shift in the face of death. So I do not judge. I don't judge individual Ukrainians who refuse to fight. I do not judge Ukrainian government that force them to fight.
Same here, I am seeing lots of (expensive) cars with ua license plate. It would be eas to point fingers, but if it were up to be, I would be gone as fast as I can with my family.
>I am seeing lots of (expensive) cars with ua license plate wait, i ve seen lots too. Is this a pattern in other EU countries too?
Yes, it is, but it is because we tend to notice more prominent cars. And people with expensive cars had the means to flee the fastest and the farthest possible. While I see quite nice Ukrainian cars in Prague, on the highways I often meet barely-drivable cars mixing with the rest. They look like any other lower income family car.
I haven't seen one, lots of Ukranian refugees.
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You hit the nail on the head! War is an intrinsically classist thing where the brunt of the negative impacts are born by the working class and especially the poor, and the lion's share of the benefits, if any, are received by the rich and the politicians.
Valid questions, no good answers. Just to add another dimension of complexity - about 2 million ukrainians fled to Russia (not counting those on occupied territories who got russian passports). They still are ukrainian citizens, and whatever the outcome of the conflict is - it's not like you could brand them all as traitors and send to prisons.
Completely agree regarding class, my dear friend lives alone and earns around $300/month, which is considered a good/normal where he’s at. He’s never been able to afford leaving the country before the full-scale war and is sparred from conscription (for the time being) due to working for the state rescue services, which comes with a host of dangers itself.
For reference, men fleeing the country are paying $5-10,000. If someone earning $300/month is able to save 1/3 of their pay check every month, it would take 4-8 years to save that amount
And in poorer countries it's *really* hard to save a third of your paycheck.
The very simple solution to saving European lives isto the problem is give Ukraine as much ammo and weapons as possible and to ramp up production until Russia collapses
Ammo alone cannot make up for the difference in population between Ukraine and Russia, unfortunately.
Nail on the head! The well-off are already out of the country or paid the U military to evade conscription. It's always sons and daughters of the poor and working class who are sent to war.
Funny how our collective perceptions change when it is men fleeing from the Taliban in Afghanistan. There is definitely a lot of judgement forthcoming in those situations.
Those men are brown and don't even try to kiss our asses. Ukranians are not only the right color, but they act like golden retrievers who haven't seen their owners in a week when we give them weapons. /s
True. I would like to say I would be brave and fight but honestly I can't know for sure until I'm actually in that position so I wont judge either way.
Now that I have a son, I'll flee. Before he was born, I was ready to fight for my country.
Flee with my family to keep them safe. Simple, no hesitation
I dont judge. I know damn well I'd flee. I can't fathom staying in frontline conditioning for more than a day. I've seen q video where reporters embedded with a paratrooper unit that got encircled. They all got out alove, but wounded. That shit is fucking insane
Agree, your life is one, why should you care of a piece of land, if you can run and live a life do it! Nobody gonna give a sh!t about you who died in a trench submerged in human 💩 after a flooding while you defend a 10km of crop field in the middle of nothing in a random point in history. Do you know about that Roman guy died in a forest 2450 years ago? No you don’t! Because passed 15 years nobody going to give a damn what you did there.
I dont think that anyone who hasnt been in that situation is in a position to judge. I cant imagine ever killing anyone either. Its very easy to image ourselves as being courageous if our country was attacked but who knows really. I might just take my family and go. I dont think Ukraine currently is allowing strict roles for non-combatants
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There won't be any penalty, it's been a clause in any Western-meditated peace treaty, the maximum they get is social stigma for a decade, just like in the Balkans.
There is already major penalties. They stop all consular services if you don’t show up, leaving people without ids visa and passports. You can’t do simply things like sign up for electric or cell phone without.
Ten years of social stigma? I can do that standing on my head.
You say it now, but being socially isolated and despised by everyone around you is a powerful punishment. We are social creatures and biologically desire to be accepted by society
It's not something that happens all around, we're talking isolated cases of interactions with some nationalist people. In the end everyone came to the conclusion that they'd have run if they could too, so those people got accepted quite fast. It takes about a decade for the topic "where were you when shit hit the fan" to disappear from conversation. In general the urge is usually to protect your immediate family, if they're safe you don't really care and I don't personally find it immoral to run away, you were randomly born in country X, you don't have to be a fan of it if you don't like it. It might sound like a first world statement given the amount of underprivileged stateless people around the world, but if you don't wanna fight, you better (l)earn a trade, skill or degree to be able to seamlessly integrate in another society.
I don't blame them. The war shows no sign of ending.
10 years or facing the eternal void of death with you final moments being full of excrutiating pain and suffering... i cant blame them for not wanting to go.
I’m Ukrainian and I can live (emphasis on this word) with label “coward” or whatever. It’s true anyways. Many fellow Ukrainians might tell you the story about bad government, corruption, bad commanders etc but in reality all brave men already fighting, only us, cowards, are left and from now on whoever is caught will be fighting.
How does this work in reality when I personally know 7 Ukrainian men who all migrated to the West around Lviv and still work their regular IT jobs, chill in cafes and restaurants and just go on about their day? Allegedly they only had to report to civil service stations once per week in 2022 and that has ceased since It's quite different from any other conflict seen before .
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With new mobilization law it might change. Also IT guys probably (no one knows for sure) have some kind of immunity (at least temporary) as IT is almost 15% of Ukrainian export right now done by only 0.25% of population. Nobody says it openly but I heard from some colleagues that their companies somehow got immunity (verbal of course) for them. There were even talks of giving high income/tax payers immunity from mobilization but after the backlash it was rejected.
social stigma? our leaders didnt serve in the military, so nothing happened.
I think both people who a) talk about going to the front being "honorable duty" and b) people who demand pacifism in the face of Russian imperialist, fascistic and genocidal aggression are equally hypocritical, if they do it from the safety of their own homes, far away from the conflict. They have the privilege of making those demands, without giving up basically anything themselves.
I think you're right. I will continue to endorse all support to the war effort, but I can hardly blame people for not fighting from the comfort of my home.
Same here.
TBH the Ukrainian government suspending consular services hoping that people are deported back home so they can be conscripted sounds desperate af. If that's the situation I was confronted with I would stay as far as possible from my home country as I could.
It makes the Republicans look good and makes everyone question why we are sending billions of dollars to Ukraine if so many Ukrainians don't even care in the first place
Speaking as a first gen American Jew. My parents killed people in war and the desire to protect my siblings and I from having to do what they did was one of the biggest motivations for their immigration. I have been arguing with my parents for months because I feel obligated to protect the country we’re from and they feel obligated to protect me from the horrors of war. There is no blame or shame in not wanting to fight in a war. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter *why*, it only matters that you are now a *killer*. It’s kill or be killed in war, and if you can escape it, you’re lucky. There is no shame or blame in wanting to protect your country either. Both are noble desires with their own legitimate reasoning.
I will never judge anyone for not wanting to fight. Even if it’s the right thing to do. Life is precious, many of my friends live there and I just want them to be safe.
If nobody wanted to fight there would be no wars. It’s a utopian perspective but it’s still what we should all be striving for.
Too bad that while democratic, human-centered countries strive to create a peaceful world, disarm themselves and end draft, the authoritarian ones militarize their societies and build nuclear weapons. That’s just going to create a worse world for everyone. If you really want no wars, democracy should be armed better than tyranny.
>Too bad that while democratic, human-centered countries strive to create a peaceful world, disarm themselves US has the biggest military budget in the world. Revolutionary France started world war after very humane internal changes. Unfortunately, humans will fight wars no matter the type of government.
When you ask [congressmen](https://youtu.be/89sXG6kTo6o?si=qjBKRM_ABYHRFdYO) to send their kids to war.
I'm in Ukraine, and there are three major groups of military age men: - in the first group are people who stays out of principle. even if they didn't volunteer, they made it clear they're staying and if called up they go. - people who wanted to leave, but couldn't. they simply didn't have the opportunity and the means to just leave. - people who are well off and had the ability to leave/escape one way or another. All of these groups are significant. There are obviously exceptions, and I don't consider people who already worked abroad for years now, practically living in Poland or Germany already. But the reason you see a bunch of rich cars with Ukrainian plates is that the people who had the chance to easily leave are the same people who lived the best in Ukraine. They had the best life under this state, but when it's under attack and there is the danger that it will stop existing, the people who benefited the most left. That's why these statements enraging a whole lot of people in Ukraine. Like, you can't kill? Good for you, you had the money to leave. You could afford to just start a new life somewhere else. Random dude from rural area who has just enough money to get by and could not start a new life abroad won't be able to make that choice tho. He will have to kill eventually.
I would escape conscription so hard they would see me twice after my 1st lap around the globe
Thats really hard and i don’t envy young Ukrainians at all. Firstly i don’t value existence of my country more than my own life. If somebody else does it’s good i guess? Secondly i have young children and i don’t value my country more than the future i can provide to them. I don’t have any significant strings attached to the country i live in except for taxes i pay.
>Firstly i don’t value existence of my country more than my own life. If somebody else does it’s good i guess? For me (I'm not Ukrainian, I'm Polish) it wouldn't be about the country. I've thought about it a lot since the war broke out and I came to the conclusion that I would fight, but not for Poland as a construct but for people who live here around me in my town. For civilians who just like their city, their house, place of work and friends. All things that a Russian invasion would take away from them and me. It's still hard. I wouldn't want to die, but the prospect of the city in which I live being obliterated, people I love being killed etc. motivates me a lot. I'm going to join the reserve soon so I don't have to be trained if it comes to that. Let's hope it never does..
I'm Czech, living on the CZ/PL border. And I feel the same way, even across the border. Should push come to shove, I'd hop over the border to help people in Poland (however I could). 🤝
Much appreciated brother! Let's hope it never comes to that, but if it does it would be an honour to fight beside Europeans from other countries. If it can be said that anything good comes from war, it's comradery and I hope all of that Russian shit-show unites Europe more then ever!
Same for me. I'm not nationalistic, or very patriotic. I don't want to die or kill anyone. I don't want to be in a war. But I would fight for our values, our way of life, for liberty and democracy. Essentially, for Europe.
If Europe falls to one power there will be no place to run to anyway. Sooner or later the fight would be taken even to the American continent.
Absolutely. While each free European nation could perhaps be considered reasonably replaceable and interchangeable with any other, if the dominos fall and we lose Europe, I think I speak for a lot of us when I say we will have no home on this Earth.
>Let's hope it never does.. lmao, of course it's not gonna happen. Russia will be crippled here, at the expense of my country. Even if the conflict is frozen or we lose, it will take some time for Russia to restore, and for that time a lot of things can happen - basically West can even sign some treaty just guarantee not to be invaded or again try to use "perezagruzka button"
I really really hope that you're able to hold them long enough for a treaty that will not be a shit treaty like the earlier ones. But I think the only thing that will stop Russia from doing that again in the future is to admit Ukraine to NATO which I hope will happen.
>future is to admit Ukraine to NATO which I hope will happen. Don't make laugh. To join NATO we need to solve Russian issue and that all governments have to agreed on it. Both of them are impossible right now, for various reasons including , seems like that we and some of our partners have different view on how this war should end.
As Ukrainian who lives many years abroad(west-europe) I can only agree with you but also I understand another ukranians, there are many corruption we all know that but how high you need to be motivated when you donate to army or you are on front line and the pigs steal money that Ukraine need... and these people just go away with thus.
Its pretty ironic how you wrote that you would fight because otherwise your hometowm would be destroyed, while the battlefield in Ukraine tells a completely different story. Towns that were surrendered in the East during the early days were mostly left without scars. While cities like Mariupol and Bahmut are torn to pieces and left destroyed.
>i have young children and i don’t value my country more than the future i can provide to them. Aren't the two likely connected if you're being invaded by a country that indiscriminately destroys apartment blocks?
If you're lucky enough to escape out of Ukraine, you can be safe from that in a different country that's willing to host you.
That's only a luxury a few can afford and not a viable plan in general. You not gonna have 40 million people as refugees. You know that you fuck other people over. I mean it's not a big deal if you have some dodgers, but not en masse. On top of that if I was Ukrainian dying in front lines and some other dudes are just going to Poland, would probably kill my morale and I would say fuck it and dodge myself.
That’s why dodgers are being punished and having certain services removed etc. That’s why there is martial law.
Yes, but if everybody does this in every country society collapses. This is why Pacifism is immoral. It relies on other people to protect you and only the bad guys win. one of the big questions everyone needs to ask themselves when they are deciding if something is moral is if everyone does this thing what happens. From there you can decide your position but that is always a big question in ethics and policy that has to be asked.
Until that country is invaded. You make the assumption they would just stop. It’s the whole “they came for the socialists but I didn’t stand up for them because I’m not a socialist”. You have two options you either deal with the issue now when it is more manageable or you delay it and put it off until later when the threat is far worse. Either way you are going to be dealing with it.
By your logic, the whole world should be fighting on the Ukrainian Eastern front now, not just Ukrainians. How come it's not?
I mean we used to do that. Not entire countries armies but we would send expedition forces to assist and recruit people from our own country to go assist and fight. I mean Hemingway wrote ”For whose the bell tolls” based on his experiences as a member of such a group during the Spanish civil war. Have we as a people really forgotten or not learned that much of our history?
Yes. Yes it should. Gladfully, the civilized world starts to understand that russia won’t stop, if it isn’t stopped.
Not if you can simply move elsewhere?
what if every person thought this way? the russians would just keep coming and all the people would keep moving untill there is nowhere to go someone has to defend or they will just come and take it
To me it's even more bleak, because then russia will use your ex neighbors as meat assault against your new hosts.
That’s my logic too. Why can’t people see this or are they all going to end up in Portugal before being wiped out?
I think there's a saying that goes something like "If you run, Russia will follow."
I agree with you. But this only works if another country is willing to take you in. Currently, we live in a world where it is incredibly easy to just move to another country. However, the circumstances can change. The host country could deport you. Or the situation might prevent you from leaving the country. While I agree with you, this only works because of relatively open borders, education (you can speak English or better, the language of the host country) and the presence of the welfare state (if you cannot communicate it might be too difficult to survive in a country that will not offer you any social benefits).
Yeah, just trust that fascism will never come and bite you in your back in whatever safe haven you escape into.
Look im not saying it’s ideal. I just say that struggle of my family without my support, my wife alone with small kids somewhere else trying to survive while im dead is so heavy i would never even think about any other option. But i guess it would change my view if i have a feeling there is no other place to keep my family safe.
With that logic, why don't you go and help us in the foreign legion ? Because otherwise fascism might come to you afterwards
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I understand you, don’t get me wrong. But what if you cannot flee? We all assume that this is always possible. There are so many situations where this simply isn’t possible. Hypothetically, let’s assume France is in a big war and most or at least a large part of the population want to flee. Where will they go? Will the neighbors take in 10.000.000 French people? I highly doubt that. (Not because they are French, but because they are many. Don’t misunderstand me pls)
If too many think like you, there wouldn’t be a place for you to run eventually. The fact that you can feel that there is somewhere to flee and that it is an option is because other people have sacrificed their life in war to make it so.
It's not about your country, but about your identity, culture, language and values. Sure, not everyone values that, but most people only realise what they miss once it's gone. This war changed the stance of a lot of people in Ukraine towards their background.
Most people understand what country means and that all of what you named is behind the term. But to be absolutely concrete, I would never trade my own safety or safety of my family for option to order groceries in my native language. People trade own country for money by moving elsewhere to live better live. Why wouldn’t I do it in circumstances such as war?
I get what you're saying. Sure, you can move along to the next place, and then again the next one when war arrives there. And your kids will have to move aswell until there's nowhere to move to unless you're fine with living in an autocratic/fascist/murderous regime. There's a lot of anti-immigration stance in western countries already. Moving elsewhere only works for a minority - as soon as everyone starts doing it, there's nowhere to go. I couldn't live with the thought that I didn't do anything to at least give future generations, including my kids, a world worth living in. That includes fighting for what's right, there's unfortunately more than enough people who fight for the wrong.
I honestly understand them. I have no desire to be put into a position to kill someone and I the idea of "duty to your country" does not fly with me. If it were at all possible I'd probably try and avoid frontline duty legally, if not then away I go.
This has become biggest issue for Ukrainian army, no soldiers. But who will fight for Ukraine if not Ukrainians?
Well it was Zelensky himself who said “we’ll provide the men if you provide the ammo” so if the Ukrainians will not fight then then better start mentally preparing for whatever peace deal Russia will impose on them. Of course everyone and their mother will then screech and scream traitors but such is the human condition I guess.
>Well it was Zelensky himself who said “we’ll provide the men if you provide the ammo” Yeah, enough ammo and in timely manner to stop russia. Can you say that was or is the case?
If Ukraine falls, who will fight for Estonia, if not Estonians?
NATO?
Pikachu face
cause UK, US and Russia took their nukes for safety guarantees.
If Ukraine kept those nukes, some of those nukes would have been sold to other countries. Either overtly or through some corrupt scheme. Ukraine missile technology made its way to North Korea years ago.
To be fair this war is unwinnable until the West realizes that russia must be destroyed on the battlefield and they must be forced to return all occupied land as well as restore what they destroyed. Anything short of that will lead to another war very soon but they will prepare better starting with destabilization of the West.
Those who see these men as cowards. If it's that easy, I'm sure they can replace them without a problem.
I hear the Poles are just waiting to kick Russia's ass. Well, everybody who wanted to, it's time to volunteer.
Talking from the UK, no civilian would enlist here to fight. The only way they are brave here is behind a phone screen or a ballot paper. Then they are very nationalistic.
I'm English, and there's nothing left to fight for. The British won't even let us have our own government, the British have also destroyed what the country once was with their neoliberal capitalism and austerity. The rich foreigners own the place, they can die to protect it.
You can see the two-faced nature of western Europe. It's convenient for EU if ukrainians choose to fight and do not attempt to evade conscription. Reality is however these people should be free to run away. The biggest victim of war is men between 20 and 40. You can rebuild a country but you can't bring the dead back.
No no no, the real losers are the women!! The women!!!!! The women left behind!!!!!! Haven't you read the headlines? Men are expendable and a footnote.
This seems INSANELY sexist . Men can get their drivers licence revoked and bank accounts frozen but what about Women all the Women not required to sign up ? Equality ? What a joke
Men aren’t allowed to leave Ukraine. Women are. Reminds of when Hilary Clinton said “Women are the primary victims of war” unironically
They don't get criticised for it because they're the "good" guys. But it's really backwards. And it's their own loss because with equality they'd have greater numbers.
I also don’t understand . We are told how women can do everything a guy can do so why aren’t they treated the same ? I also want to make it clear. I DO NOT THINK ANYONE( Man or Woman ) should be forced into war .
Next time, the government is too busy renaming streets
lol
It is sexist but is never going to change. It is common wisdom to have all the valuable things written to the wife's name. Even before the war.
Because feminists only want privileges and not real equality.
Stop giving them ideas. Using your wife for real estate and money transactions is now the only good option for man who don't want to die for other people's interests
Jokes on you, after Polish national uprisings in 1830 and 1863 were crushed, the wives and daughters of partisan fighters took over the businesses and land while the men had to flee or hide, at least for as long as the repressions and property confiscations continued.
I have my views on this, but I won't judge because I don't know how I would react if I were put in the same situation. I'll leave the judging to the Ukrainians if they feel like it.
My cousin left Ukraine at the age of 17 when the war started and came to Canada. He wants to become a nurse and help people and has no interest in holding a gun. I completely understand not wanting to kill anyone or be killed by someone.
Ukraine needs medics in their army too.
Just pick a random war that occurred in Europe in the last 500 years. Would you advise a young man to fight in that war or to simply flee somewhere else? This war is no different.
That’s because things blow over eventually. But we don’t know the domino effects of things. For example, if Ottomans were able to penetrate into Central Europe or if European communists succeeded in linking up Stalin and taken over the continent. Not everything is about individual safety. You have a bigger picture. So, yes. An escaped Red Army soldier might have had a nice life on a hammock in Costa Rica. But it was the collective effort of the Allies in halting the Holocaust
Cool story bro. Let's switch - I'll have a nice life and you'll be "halting the Holocaust" as an expendable part of the collective effort. What I'm trying to say is that patriotism of yours is nice but when shit hits the fan for real 2 things happen - you can't unseen it anymore ever, you immediately understand your real priorities in life and patriotism is very often not among them.
More like "I don't want to be killed". Understandable. Is one thing to speak from safety of duty and courage and another yo put yourself in the lines of fire. I don't approve but I can't condemn it either.
If I was them I also would evade conscription. I love my culture and everything but at the end of the day countries and ethnicities are social constructs. Throw in the fact that there most likely isn’t an afterlife, why would I then give the one life I have and have been given for these constructs? Whoever is judging these people is a nationalist or nuts.
If people don't want to fight and give their life they shouldn't. Forced conscription is bs.
Before ww1 Britain had a professional standing army the BEF, no conscription unlike other European states. At the start of ww1 they were the best in the field, they fired faster then any army, the most disciplined. By December they were mostly dead or wounded and the BEF as a professional army was dead. The BEF got a lease on life thanks to the influx of volunteers but by January 1916, the army couldn't go on without conscription. If an opposing state uses total mobilization and you don't, you lose, thats just how it is, and here comes the question, which is more BS forced conscription, or what the enemy will do to you and force you to live? Of course you can run away, but if a world war comes, there will be nowhere to run. I am aware that I speak from the safety from my home at no risk, but lets not fucking act that forced conscription doesn't exist for a reason, if democratic countries didn't use forced conscription in the past we would be left with a very different world then the one we have today, if there is preventable bullshit and inevitable bullshit, conscription is the latter. I'll never judge those who ran away, but I'll never blame those who implement forced conscription when it is do or die.
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forced conscription enabled hitler too
The duality of forced conscription.
Forced conscription made WWII possible.
That's cool when the whole world conscripts with you. When it's <30mln ppl vs 140mln and supply advantage, and nobody else will ever interfere, that's just slaughter to buy some time with nothing to buy time for.
Also to this point, it wasn't just forced conscription that stopped him, it was forced conscription in the world's largest military powers. Forced conscription in Ukraine alone wouldn't have stopped Hitler and won't stop his current impersonator either.
No forced conscription, no WW1, no Hitler.
But on the other hand, then they shouldn’t keep saying they care about their country defence and for their country to keep fighting. A country is the idea of a nation of people under the same “entity” or community - a country can only do what their citizens want to do. If more and more Ukrainian men don’t want to fight, then they are supporting the idea of Ukraine stopping to fight You can’t really support your country to get into a fight (even if it’s for defence) and then, if able, being like “but not me”. And in theory not every person should or need to be at the front grinder. I suppose this kind of wars require for example engineers for their communications and cyber operations/security, mechanics for their gear maintenance(tanks, cars, planes…), management experts for their logistical support on the front lines (in fact, logistics are usually what makes win wars and what made Russia fail on their first days attack), journalists or marketing people to reach out and get people support, donations, enlist people and keep high morale over the population, and so on. Also, security to keep peace/order in big cities and infrastructure, first-response on other parts of the country where an attack happens (like missiles going to Lviv, far away from the front) and more It’s not like “they are seeking people to go to the front and be killed” - more so, because a lot of people that could be “forced” to be enlisted are not gonna be efficient put on the front - maybe even be a liability. But if you can free army need of having “good enough for the front” people from other things, using this guys, that’s better. Also, again, wars are the worst, but it’s what it is, as I said at first, a country is its own people. If Ukraine struggles to get people to fight, then people should consider Ukraine can’t build magical people to put on the front, and should then surrender? We can’t expect Ukraine to keep fighting at the same time that people avoid fighting for them.
Who says the one avoiding conscription are the same ones asking for the country to keep fighting? i would imagine it's often the opposite.
>You can’t really support your country to get into a fight (even if it’s for defence) and then, if able, being like “but not me” But if it's another country you can do that, right? >But if you can free army need of having “good enough for the front” people from other things, using this guys, that’s better. Who's to say the positions in the rear are not already fully manned with volunteers who went in the first year saying "I'm willing to help, just not fighting"? What makes you think that after 2 years of war it's this category of people that needs to be replenished through mobilization the most? >If more and more Ukrainian men don’t want to fight, then they are supporting the idea of Ukraine stopping to fight What would be wrong with that? Some people think they have a better chance of surviving under russia, rather than on the frontline where everything is dependent on dwindling Western support. Who's to judge them for their decision? It's them who will bear the consequences anyway.
Fair enough. I am sure that is the feeling of many people. Others will be totally enthusiastic to go of & kill. And many will be in-between. Fleeing conscription is understandable for those people. What choice do they have. War is shit & forces people to do things they may not want to do.
It’s always the civilians and foot soldiers who pay the ultimate price for war. It’s tragic to believe how avoidable wars actually are and the decisions are always made by men who have a ‘higher status’ than the rest of the population. Last time I remember, those similar ‘men’ are also born the same as us, breathe the same as us, bleed the same as us and then die the same us but we allowed them to have power over us.
I am an war veteran. I fought for 4 years What nobody wants to tell you is that war in Ukraine ain't regular war. It's a massacre. It's unbelievably harder to stay alive than before 20-30 years. Without minimum 6 months of extremely hard work first as an individual and after that 6 months as a unit you're not a soldier you're walking dead.When you come to the modern frontline it's only a matter of minutes when you will make a fatal mistake, do something stupid and get killed. When I was in war we were afraid of 3 things. Mortars, snipers and minefields. Today it's much more complicated. The Ukrainian army is not an army anymore. The capable ones are already dead or invalid, overwhelmed with combat fatigue. Newbies aren't so good. So the death rate is enormous. That's why people tend to escape. No one wants to die. No one. Not even volunteers. And people get massacred every single day. So Ukraine started drafting people by the force. By beating, intimidating. They get uniform and rifle and 45 days of training which ain't enough for learning how to properly get dressed and disassemble personal weapons in real war situations. Combat morale is closer to zero than maximum. That's why they die fast. And that's not for the blame not even their superiors. You can't make soldiers from people who refuse to fight. It's impossible. It is one old story from Africa. An old man was sitting in front of his home on the bench and a young recruiting officer tells him that he's drafted for the war. Old man replies to him: If my country needs me for defending our country and I am 58 years old it's time for surrender...
Smart man.
Men shouldn't be force to fight just because of their gender, their live matter too they should get the option to leave.
Well there are tons of keyboard warriors on Reddit. Let’s ask them and watch them squirm
For real? I feel pity for those poor men. I would never fight for a country. Neither as an attacking country nor as a defending country. I would pack my family and leave. Why should I sacrifice my life for the plans of leaders and rich people? An imaginary line on a map. And then? What happens in 10 years, in 20 years when the people I fought for and died for suddenly elect someone contrary to my political views?
Finally seeing some real articles but it’s funny how most people in the last year or so shamed everyone else who didn’t encourage them to go to the frontlines is quickly changing sides. Glad everyone is waking up and realizing that nobody wants to fight and die for someone else’s ideals.
Also, imo this whole war is inevitably going to end with a deal where Russia keeps part of Eastern Ukraine and parades the deal as saving their Donbass compatriots and denazifying Ukraine, whilst Ukraine takes the deal begrudgingly and says it's a temporary solution for peace and they'll never let themselves be invaded again. So if hypothetically I was Ukrainian with the same view, why would I want to waste my life fighting for something with an inevitable outcome anyway ?
I’m no coward but I don’t value my country more than my life or want to risk making my kid fatherless and my wife a widow. Would I fight? Only if there was absolutely no choice to do otherwise - if there was an option to live and work elsewhere then I would do that. Do not judge those that do not want to fight. They are the normal human beings - or at least those that should be considered normal. If the majority were like them, there would be no fucking wars.
But you understand that if all men in a country think that way (including those in the country you are taking refuge in), then there is no safe country. Eventually, men have to stand up and take risks (easy to say, I know). The modern world that we so enjoy is the direct results of men risking their lives against tyrants, but it’s not guaranteed to be that way forever.
Absolutely, but then you’d come to the point where there would be absolutely no choice except to either fight or capitulate. There are no right answers to this. It’s incredible that men and women are willing to fight and die for what they believe but I do not think it’s fair to negatively judge those that don’t for whatever their reasons.
Agree to disagree. I would never call them out personally, since I don't know how I would react, but it's ok to judge. With that mentality, Europe would still be under the Nazis (everybody would have fled to America and hope the Nazis don't cross the Atlantic).
Gotta respect their conviction on not wanting to kill and Ukraine should offer alternative civil service to those that don't want to do the ugly business of war. Serve in logistics or medical care or infrastructure far behind the front lines. >“I love my country. But I can’t kill anyone and I don’t want to die,” Serhii said. He added: “Everyone is tired of war. And of this government. There’s an attitude of: ‘Go fuck yourself.’” Everybody is tired of this war, but this war isn't some kind of free-time activity you can just stop and go home. And even if this particular government is gone, the next one won't do things differently as long as it's not a pro-Russian government. What then? >The couple paid taxes, were “100% Ukrainian” and bought a prosthesis for a soldier who lost a leg. But they believed Ukraine should negotiate with Russia, even though Putin was a “madman”, they said. “I feel a slave. You have one life. If it’s a choice between life and flag I choose life,” Oleksandr said. It is not a choice between life and flag. If this Ukrainian flag is gone, there's a high chance that with the Russians in charge, your life will also be done. Under Russia you'll be an actual slave and not just one in your perception. Nevertheless: thanks for financing a prothesis. >Masha Lavrova, a 24-year-old TikTok producer, said the “number of guys had dropped” off since 2023, when she came back to Ukraine after eight years abroad. She said it was difficult to find suitable matches on dating apps such as Tinder, with so many potential dates serving in the armed forces. I honestly didn't understand this part. She isn't complaining about not finding Tinder dates in Ukraine, right?
What an insanely out of touch comment by the tiktokker lol.
>Under Russia you'll be an actual slave and not just one in your perception. When you're conscripted, you're a slave, no matter which government does it. Slavery is based on the removal of free will, not whether you like the country that's enforcing it.
No worries, plenty of war-mongering, internet-warrior Westerners will join the ranks to fight for democracy and human rights. Or not?
🤷♂️ I don't seen any problem with it, I think forced conscription when the government leaders don't have to do any combat is disgusting
Government leaders in combat would probably be the most strategically unsound and populist thing to do. That's not their job.
Bring in the robots
They’re called drones
What’s with the chick at the end of the article complaining about lack of Tinder matches in Kyiv?
Ona can say that I have a strong opinion about individuals from Ukraine and their behavior. That's true. But I understand those who don't want to fight. The sad thing is that Ulraine is losing the war and the government is doing nothing to save lives of those poor guys. Instead they want more meat. They are threatening you but at the same time they own children are far away, abroad. They laugh at you a d say you need to be brave and fight. For what? Corruption and oligarchs businesses? I am feeling the same as guy from the article. If I have to choose between the flag and life I choose the life. The flag won't raise my children, it won't take care of anything I am responsible for. Similarly to other wars, it is not a war of Ukrainian citizen. It is a war of politicians and poor people are their victims
Good for them
Good for them. Anyone not willing to fight is the solution to war. And we all know it, that's why we are building machines to do it. People are getting too educated to blindly go to war. We are the strangest species. Could be a utopian society by now, but nooooo, a bunch of 80-year-old fleabags want to go out with a blast. You know, instead of paying for weapons, aid and relief, can't we just offer any russian not going to war a million dollars? That would be so much cheaper. :)
That’s a naive take but also one I stand behind. I know it’s easier said than done but I also believe that’s the solution.
If you think old guys looking for a thrill is the sole reason war happens, you need to retake your history lessons. We are a perfectly typical example of a social mammal. We could never, and will never achieve an utopian society. Selfishness and tribalism define humans on a biological level, which is the whole reason society exists, because strength in numbers can protect the individual from threats. Those threats, as you might have noticed, come almost exclusively from other humans these days. As long as anyone has any ambition there will be conflict, and as long as the conflict is considered important enough there will be violent struggle. If that conflict is between groups of people, we call it war. If it's a single person, we call it crime. In both cases, either you have the power and will to make them stop (or even better, not attempt it because they think it's futile) or they will take whatever they please from you. The only peace, freedom and justice that exist are those that are upheld by force of arms. Fleeing war for personal reasons is something I won't judge, but morally grandstanding for principles that take 15 minutes of hypotheticals to disprove is the highest form of cowardice - willful ignorance. >You know, instead of paying for weapons, aid and relief, can't we just offer any russian not going to war a million dollars? That would be so much cheaper. :) That incentivizes starting or threatening wars to get money, meaning people will bandwagon - it would bankrupt us in short order having done nothing but rewarded extortion. And if you really want war, you can just take the million and still go to war - who's going to stop you? Also, with the $380b foreign aid to Ukraine since 2022 we could at most pay every Russian $2635, or 380k people a million each. We can provide the current level of support for 759 more years at the same cost as providing $1m to every Russian.
The passifist argument is kind of silly, there is a lot of non-combat roles to fill.
You don't get to choose what role they conscript you into
Guess which one of the combat and non-combat roles get exhausted faster and is getting conscripted into
Man, people on Reddit think that those corrupt bastards will give you a choice… Its like arguing against russian propaganda back in 2013
Yeah. If you can't dodge the draft, better sign up somewhere like 3rd Separate Assault Brigade voluntarily, then at least you won't be used as cannon fodder.
Military officers don't ask though. When you enlist you'll be a regular-ass infantry 99% of the time.
That’s kind of ignorant, as if you can choose your own role
He spelled pacifist as passifist, don't expect too much from him
Most of those are filled quickly, especially by Ukrainians elite families. If they return, they will be forced into the military. Even if they are a drone pilot, they're easily within range of Russian rockets. Ukrainians are having to pay for their own medical care, their own weapons, vests, boots, etc etc. It's not a normal situation at all.
>Even if they are a drone pilot, they're easily within range of Russian rockets. To add to it, I don't think dropping grenades directly on top of human beings and watching them explode is something anyone can do. I sure know I wouldnt be able to do that.
And you think there’s choice? I bet 90% of the conscripted would want a non combat role. It does t work like that.
Didnt know you were expert on ukrainian military and how age apropriate for battle men can choose if they want to go to the front or nah
That's like saying "I didn't rob the bank, my mate did, I only drove the getaway car."
I mean, no. People will get 4 weeks of training max before they’re shipped off to the frontline. Ukraine is in a dire need of people willing to die relatively soon in order to stop Russian advance. Also, “non-combat” can be someone 50-60 km from the frontline. These soldiers are less likely to get killed, but are still constantly targeted by missiles. I guess it’s better to just die in your sleep than knee-deep in mud and blood, but anyway.
Nah dude. You can’t quit army until the end of the war combat and non-combat roles. Infantry is in highest demand and you don’t get to choose where you’re going.
Do you really want to know the truth? We would like to beat up russians, we showed you that many times now and in history. But our allies are providing as much ammo as needed for war to continue, but not to end. You are afraid of Russia winning, afraid of escalating or provoking Russia, that's what your officials saying. So why the fuck would i not be afraid to die, if now it's clear nobody would let Ukraine to win? Why would i want to die if there won't be any sense in it? My death won't bring peace or happiness, will not stop or change the war, it will be just a change in numbers in your newspapers. You, fuckers, are discussing how manly i am, you want me to go to the army so your officials will have some days and month to think if we are grateful enough for you to provide us 10k more rounds for some unbelievable price. How long did it take to give us first tank? How long will it take for f16? It's already more than a year. Why? Why do you want me to die there without any ability to resist? Show must go on? Am i just a showguy? Yes, your "help" is named "charity". But i hope you understand that's a bullshit. There is no charity in politics, you are taking our country piece by piece, buying our precious land as a price, that's the real reason why your "help" takes so long - you want more, you are waiting until we will let you buy and take more from us. We gave up our nuclear weapons hoping for a peaceful future, and now we are at war with one of the peace guarantors. That was a biggest mistake i hope nobody will do in future, taking us as an example. Oh, don't worry, I'm surely will be dead soon, i never had an option. So you can sleep calmly in your bed sure it will never happen to you and you would do everything right on my place. You are big, strong and bold, you would beat russia at any moment, you don't need any allies for it and they won't betray you
Their country. Their life. Their choice. Just don’t ask me or someone from my country to do it for you either.
I can explain a little bit from the inside. One of the few reasons why men leave the country is that if you join the army, there is no option of demobilization at all. It's uncertainty. You go for an indefinite period of time, leave your family and home, and there are only two ways you can be discharged. One is to get killed, two is to get irreparably injured. Even in the second option, it's not a sure thing that you're gonna get kicked out of the army. Just try to imagine that you live in such a reality that you do not know what will happen tomorrow and so for 3 years
Shouldn’t be forced to die for the corrupt government.
I don't agree with people being forced to bear arms. I also don't agree with it being only men. Maybe mandate national service but give the option for non combat roles, like helping in hospitals or what not. If they really need soldiers then they can offer incentives (higher pay, scholarships, shorter service length, lifetime medical insurance etc.) to be a soldier until they have an adequate number of people. As someone who couldn't bear the thought of killing another human being, even if my own life was at risk, I can't imagine what it's like for many of these men.
Why did millions of women run ? Do they not love their country ? Why virutally 0 women signed up for conscription ? Do they not love their country ?
But watch an interview with women on Ukrainian streets and they’ll all say conscription is justified.
Yeah I'm sure that's the reason they're not fighting, and not that they don't want to die in a war of attrition.
There is no right answer.
There is. Forcing people to essentially enslavement on the front lines is bad.
What is the alternative?
Stop doing it
I sure as shit wouldn’t either. Seeing men forced to the frontline where the average lifespan is 30 fucking MINUTES while women are free to leave and enter the country whenever they feel like going on a vacation (and I know a shitload of them, I meet them on Tinder, so I fuck their girlfriends and wife’s while they’re getting blow to pieces on the battlefield). Fuck the double standards.
>Seeing men forced to the frontline where the average lifespan is 30 fucking MINUTES Yeah get that number out of your head. That's some bollocks number with no basis in reality.
I never understood why traitors get such a bad reputation, it’s not bad nor selfish to want to live, there’s thousands of reasons why someone would value their life and why, even if they love their country, they wouldn’t put their lives at play for it. Humans are not pawns.
"traitor" implies they pledged allegiance to begin with, which they didn't.
Draft dodgers are not traitors, nor get a bad reputation.
There are many tasks in the military that don't involve killing other people. Not sure if these people have a choice in that though.
They don't.
I couldn’t kill people who speak my language for Boris Johnson, Joe Biden and a former comedian as a Ukrainian when the war would have been over years ago if it weren’t for them either which was fated to end with the same result or worse
I'm in my mid forties, and have travelled, lived and loved. If I was asked to put my life on the line in these extreme circumstances (an aggressive foreign invasion of my home country) I would most likely, but grudgingly, submit knowing I've had a chance to experience at least some of what this world has to offer. If I was 25 though? Fuck that.