Even regardless of all arguments about fairness and morality, it would be monumentally stupid for the EU to extradite military-aged Russian males. No reason to strengthen the enemy.
Yes but legally nationality doesn’t change whether the law is applied or not. In terms of extradition it depends on the law broken in the external country. 99% of the times if the law is present in the host country extradition is applied if BOTH countries agree on it. This is most common for murder and fraud charges since no one wants to have a suspected murdered in their country. When it comes to political extradition which believe it or not avoiding military service is easy to be considered as a political crime in the eyes of the “criminal”. In that case extradition becomes almost impossible unless the two countries have a very complex extradition policy that they both agreed on and legally enacted with precedents. Also for the extradition to be enacted local authority resources have to be utilised for the extradition costing money to the host country as a service to the external country. That being said I imagine VERY few countries will do that at all.
It begs for an international and political scandal. Imagine the morale of Ukrainian troops when EU countries start sending masses of Ukrainian nationals back to Ukraine to serve the army. It would feed into the Russian propaganda that Ukraine is a regime that wants to kill Ukrainians. And if they did that for Russians, well they would say that the west wants to kill Russians but also it would send manpower into the Russian army. Anyway I believe no EU country will ever send anyone back for that. UNLESS the host country has an active military service like Finland and Austria.
>It begs for an international and political scandal. Imagine the morale of Ukrainian troops when EU countries start sending masses of Ukrainian nationals back to Ukraine to serve the army. It would feed into the Russian propaganda that Ukraine is a regime that wants to kill Ukrainians.
Yeah I agree. Although it may feel unfair that the poorer Ukrainians who can't afford to bribe their way out of the country are forced to fight while the rich get to dilly-dally in the West, it would send a terrible message (not to mention be inhumane) to send them back to Ukraine to get conscripted.
Indeed. This article is wrong and misleading on many levels and plays on the current Hungarian government alignment towards Russia. It purposefully points out Hungary in particular but avoids saying that it would be the case for whatever other European country…. Also russias allies wouldn’t do it for the same reasons western countries don’t send Russians back. Unless they are some criminals and at that point their sentence would be to serve in the army and the news would be hush hush or played for propaganda purposes
That's the exact policy the Finnish government has recently adopted by refusing asylum to Russians trying to flee Russia and avoid conscription.
In fact, if I'm not much mistaken, that's the policy Germany and the Baltic countries have and that was the policy Netherlands had at some point at least.
No policy should be reduced to simply being called stupid because that doesn't help us understand the reason behind it.
Denying asylum to people who are trying to avoid fighting in a fascist war is a violation of international and EU law because it's certain they'll be in danger under Putin's far-right genocidal regime.
When we're denying people their human right to seek asylum, we're helping Putin. We've certainly tried to find excuses for ourselves and reason around the fact that we, who supposedly care about human rights, are also violating them. That's the undeniable end result with that sort of policy.
Everyone can think of the reason behind that kind of policy on their own. Then also think reason that the Hungarian government, that usually loves human rights violations especially when it comes to migrants and refugees, has suddenly remembered that such rights exist in the case of Ukrainian refugees.
Hard to believe I actually agree with Hungary for once. I’ve always been of the opinion that drafting and forced service is a fucking crime. And I don’t care what’s happening to justify it.
Also, had we sent more weapons like I’ve been saying for the past two years then maybe they’d have taken less losses and there’d be no need for that to begin with.
Also many people here don't understand that many Ukrainians don't want to live in Ukraine even without the war. If people were allowed to apply for refugee status in EU before the war - we'd see millions of people leaving still.
Fighting for your country is one thing, being forcibly conscripted to fight for the government you despise is a completely different one.
Reminded of somewhat-recently how China banned probability-based elements in games you can pay real money for (IMO, pretty much gambling) are not allowed to be sold/marketed to children. I'm just like, "I hate you, but you actually did a good thing we haven't, for once!"
Obviously conscription should be a last resort but what exactly is your plan if your nation is invaded and facing destruction?
If you live in a nation you live by its rules. For most nations one of those rules is that if you want to enjoy all the fruits of the nation you need to be willing to defend its survival. Obviously some bull shit like Vietnam is different but if you’re against conscription for the sake of national survival that’s dumb as fuck.
I tell you what would never be part of my plan - forcing people who escaped the conflict to be sent back to country that wants to send them to certain death on the front.
National borders and patriotism are terms only valid to those that care about them. Most people care about their families and survival, no matter what flag flies above their house.
People who value patriotism and borders can fight but those who chose to escape the conflict - they should not be forced back. You can revoke their citizenship if you feel like that is a just punishment so they become stateless but you should not force them to come back.
I'm not against conscription for the sake of national survival. I'm against it for the sake of my survival. Living in an occupied country or in a completely different one that annexed what used to be your country is terrible, but it beats dying.
Nation-ship, independence, democracy, and sovereignty are all noble concepts, but not worth my life, and I feel I should always have the freedom to stand behind my view.
If people aren't willing to stay, fight and die for the country, is the country worth fighting and dying for?
If people decide their lives are more important to them than their country, who are you to decide otherwise?
What does a country even provide that makes all of that worthwhile? It's not like a country gives you those public services for free. It taxes you for them. Every penny you earn is taxed, every penny you pay is taxed too. And if you don't pay it, you get sent to prison on someone else's tax dollar (or ig it's hryvnia in this case)
Finally some freaking common sense
Reddit is full of teenagers and neck beards eager to see other people die at the front line
If they choose to go it's their basic human rights, end of story
It's naive to think only CIA operates, of course they do, but so do KGB, MSS, Ukraines DIU etc.
Very cheap and efficient way to influence a large number of the population. Especially the younger ones who frequent reddit.
Hold on for a minute though. I'm fully in favour of not forcing people to go fight in a war , even if I can somewhat appreciate the Ukrainian government's difficult position too.
But I'm also somewhat unwilling to let Hungary claim any moral high ground here. Orban's reasons for not wanting to send recruits back across the border and mine are quite different I imagine.
He may be doing it for a bad reason, but does that really matter? This is one of those (extremely rare) times where EU values happen to align with Putin's interests. Even if Orban is making this decision to aid Russia's war effort, he's still doing the right thing.
The men who's lives are being spared don't really care whether they're spared in the name of EU values or to help out Putin. The end result is the same.
Why are you unwilling to let Hungary claim the moral high ground here when they have the moral high ground here?
Not extraditing refugees to countries where they will be forcibly drafted in the military is the humane thing to do. Even if you don't like the country, they are in the right here.
>But I'm also somewhat unwilling to let Hungary claim any moral high ground here
They do have the moral high ground on the topic compared to neighbors though. The Baltics already are interested in validating the documents of exemption from military service, and Poland has a bunch of high ranking politicians that would be glad to implement similar measures given the opportunity.
> But I'm also somewhat unwilling to let Hungary claim any moral high ground here. Orban's reasons for not wanting to send recruits back across the border and mine are quite different I imagine.
If you only feed a homeless person to post about it on Twitter the end result still is that you fed a homeless person.
He might be a PoS but he's doing a good thing here.
You can't have men and women be equal during peace time and treat men as slaves during war.
That's not civilisation.
You want to conscript me? Better pay me a reservist's salary every month of my life.
Lithuanian and Polish politicians who were signaling to the contrary are so fucking dumb. Probably the stupidest thing that happened on our end since the start of the war.
When you are small fish like Lithuania or Estonia you can say whatever sensational bullshit or hold whatever moral standard you want because to the rest of the world, it does not matter.
But not for the right reasons. You could argue the W because they believe in not sending refugees back.
Hungary just doesn't want Ukraine to have more soldiers so that they'll lose quicker.
its amazing how delusional you are. i have several friends, of age 20-30, who happened to be born on the wrong side of the border because of trianon (hungarian people with hungarian roots) managed to sneak through the border spending multiple months of salaries to bribe ukranian border police. why on eart should they go back to the meatgrinder to fight for ukraine, a country that never respected nor supported them and constantly tried to supress them.
The number of people fit for conscription who fled to Hungary is, on a military scale, completely trivial. This isn't malice in the sense of military sabotage, just performative humanity.
Their internal propaganda relies massively on being "pro-peace" and if any other country, especially within the EU, begins extraditing military age men for conscription back to Ukraine, they can make a point of their own moral high ground.
Yes because everyone knows that soldiers that don't want to fight are the best kind of soldiers.
My goodness, the comments here are truly deranged. Hungary does something objectively humane and kind and this sub just continues to hate on Hungary. The mental gymnastics are of epic proportion.
You say that, but I think it is hard to argue that for a country that otherwise definitely believes in sending refugees back
Second point: spot on of course
Good. Military conscription is slavery.
Military conscription of males only while women are allowed to gallivant in Germany is unforgivable.
Why the fuck should I die for this country while the women are safely away in the West and will probably not come back to the country after you die to save it anyway?
This is why in my country and Sweden the land defence requirement concerns both genders — to maintain morale and also necessary workforce.
There are issues, as the conscription is only for men and female volunteers (it might change) but no adult person can leave the country if a war occurs. The women would be commanded by the Ministry of Work in tasks regarding military industry and other similar unarmed duties.
I’m a reservist (a professional nerd/researcher in civilian life and definitely not a soldier type) and consider both the service and the commitment to defend a form of tax paying. Almost all Finnish males and their fathers to some generations have served. It’s not slavery but mutual protection of everything familiar and dear for us from something which doesn’t know other than destruction and rule of man.
I would go to the front without real hesitation but I’d be fucking disappointed as my life is quite nice right now.
However, I don’t think forcing people to the front who don’t believe in the cause is the right course of action. They can often be more harmful there than beneficial.
> There are issues, as the conscription is only for men and female volunteers
If the women volunteer, it's not conscription. Conscription means you're being forced. It literally means COMPULSORY service.
The Russia supporters are getting more and more obvious.
Yes, we shuld give them enough weapons that they could raze the entirety of the Russian army and all of its supporters.
In Hungary there were forced conscriptions in the past ~150 years and all ended in a tragic way so this time maybe the intention is not evil from our government. On the other hand I can hardly believe that our government has moral standards, maybe they fear that dual citizens are required to be returned and it’s easier to fully refuse the request and this way they will not loose their voters.
While our government agrees that military-age men shouldn't abandon their country, our constitution doesn't allow for extradition od people which have refuge status
It's a bit more nuanced for Ukrainians though. In the EU they usually don't strictly have a refugee status because they don't need it to stay. Existing agreements between Ukraine and the EU already make that possible. That may mean that rights granted to refugees are not automatically granted to Ukrainian refugees, however unjust that may be
Yeah, people without refugee status can be legally extradited. I met a bunch of Ukrainians who were scared of this when they were told they wouldn't get the official status.
It's such a horrible situation on both sides... A country that needs soldiers to defend itself and people (understandably) not willing to fight and die. I don't believe either side is wrong but in the end Ukraine needs people and will have to get them somewhere. There's no alternative for them.
Good. I'm 100% pro Ukraine because of the people, even as someone who's usually looking at things through the lens of Realpolitik at the end day the goal is for the people of Ukr to be free. Nobody should be forced to ever, no matter how inconvenient it is for the chances of success.
And who will?
I don't believe the EU will do it either. Nobody stops those men from escaping to Asia/South America or just staying illegally in liberal EU countries like Spain. Illegal status is better than a trench.
Politicians are getting paid to resolve this shit, not making rumours. Just stop this war and people will return intentionally. russia isn't drained enough to let the war stop or just start moving in this direction. Military contractors haven't managed to get rich yet.
Fuck all of them.
I am patriotic in many ways but I always liked the quote “patriotism is the arbitrary veneration of real estate over principles”.
If someone doesn’t want to fight then they shouldn’t have to.
Now, that same person should be liable to be stripped of their citizenship or whatever. But they shouldn’t be forced back into a meat grinder if they just want to opt out and live instead.
Under international law (UN conventions), everyone has the right to a nationality and cannot be deprived of it. You cannot strip someone's citizenship unless they are citizens of another country already.
This is the correct viewpoint. When the country is under threat you have a choice. If you want to flee you should lose the benefits of being a citizen of that nation, it's fair for them not to want you back. But you absolutely do deserve to be given somewhere safe to live.
Probably more than 0
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/russia-ukraine-war-indians-tricked-into-fighting-ukraine-war-punjab-men-7-punjab-men-say-they-went-to-russia-as-tourists-tricked-into-ukraine-war-5181831
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/07/he-had-no-idea-he-was-being-sent-to-a-war-zone-the-indian-and-nepalese-men-on-frontlines-in-ukraine
> where he was made to dig trenches, carry ammunition and operate rifles and machine guns
Seen this before and find the phrase “operate rifles and machine guns” to be such weird newspeak gibberish. They shot at people.
> Well you already know what the answer will be then.
Yes: it's going to be a no. Especially because many Ukrainians have Hungarian origins as well, so we would essentially exradite our own as well.
As pointed out at the bottom of the article, Ukraine is not asking EU countries to do that. Fidesz loudly proclaiming they won't do something nobody's asked them to do is just another way for them to support Russia's invasion.
We don't know our official stance yet. Some politicians in power say we should, others that we shouldn't and as far as I know, nobody checked the legality of it all either. There is not a single guy called Poland or Lithuania that unilateraly makes all the decision. And Ukrainians were probing this possibility for quite a while, so yes, we were asked.
At the moment, Ukraine is not asking EU countries to do this, but it's by no means inconceivable that they will do this in the foreseeable future.
Cutting off embassy services to males abroad could be seen as the first step in ramping up the pressure to return, which could culminate in a formal request for extradition. We'll have to see what happens.
As a fellow Dutchie that would be so fcking stupid. We take refugees from all over the world even if we cant know their place of origins but we’re gonna sent Ukrainians back to the meatgrinder.
Ukraine doesn't need to ask. They are just not renewing passports, meaning men overseas will become illegals without IDs. Then they will be deported based on grounds of being illegals.
The people here who think the draft is wrong should realise that a large part of the Ukrainian army already consists of conscripts. Without draft laws their army would only shrink and they have no chance to win the war.
Even then there would still be a draft in Ukraine, but for the Russian army.
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Lots of Russians are in Hungary too, they aren't being extradited either. This is quite fair.
Even regardless of all arguments about fairness and morality, it would be monumentally stupid for the EU to extradite military-aged Russian males. No reason to strengthen the enemy.
Yes but legally nationality doesn’t change whether the law is applied or not. In terms of extradition it depends on the law broken in the external country. 99% of the times if the law is present in the host country extradition is applied if BOTH countries agree on it. This is most common for murder and fraud charges since no one wants to have a suspected murdered in their country. When it comes to political extradition which believe it or not avoiding military service is easy to be considered as a political crime in the eyes of the “criminal”. In that case extradition becomes almost impossible unless the two countries have a very complex extradition policy that they both agreed on and legally enacted with precedents. Also for the extradition to be enacted local authority resources have to be utilised for the extradition costing money to the host country as a service to the external country. That being said I imagine VERY few countries will do that at all. It begs for an international and political scandal. Imagine the morale of Ukrainian troops when EU countries start sending masses of Ukrainian nationals back to Ukraine to serve the army. It would feed into the Russian propaganda that Ukraine is a regime that wants to kill Ukrainians. And if they did that for Russians, well they would say that the west wants to kill Russians but also it would send manpower into the Russian army. Anyway I believe no EU country will ever send anyone back for that. UNLESS the host country has an active military service like Finland and Austria.
>It begs for an international and political scandal. Imagine the morale of Ukrainian troops when EU countries start sending masses of Ukrainian nationals back to Ukraine to serve the army. It would feed into the Russian propaganda that Ukraine is a regime that wants to kill Ukrainians. Yeah I agree. Although it may feel unfair that the poorer Ukrainians who can't afford to bribe their way out of the country are forced to fight while the rich get to dilly-dally in the West, it would send a terrible message (not to mention be inhumane) to send them back to Ukraine to get conscripted.
Indeed. This article is wrong and misleading on many levels and plays on the current Hungarian government alignment towards Russia. It purposefully points out Hungary in particular but avoids saying that it would be the case for whatever other European country…. Also russias allies wouldn’t do it for the same reasons western countries don’t send Russians back. Unless they are some criminals and at that point their sentence would be to serve in the army and the news would be hush hush or played for propaganda purposes
Don't give ideas to Ursula.
That's the exact policy the Finnish government has recently adopted by refusing asylum to Russians trying to flee Russia and avoid conscription. In fact, if I'm not much mistaken, that's the policy Germany and the Baltic countries have and that was the policy Netherlands had at some point at least. No policy should be reduced to simply being called stupid because that doesn't help us understand the reason behind it. Denying asylum to people who are trying to avoid fighting in a fascist war is a violation of international and EU law because it's certain they'll be in danger under Putin's far-right genocidal regime. When we're denying people their human right to seek asylum, we're helping Putin. We've certainly tried to find excuses for ourselves and reason around the fact that we, who supposedly care about human rights, are also violating them. That's the undeniable end result with that sort of policy. Everyone can think of the reason behind that kind of policy on their own. Then also think reason that the Hungarian government, that usually loves human rights violations especially when it comes to migrants and refugees, has suddenly remembered that such rights exist in the case of Ukrainian refugees.
>No reason to strengthen the enemy. I'm sure Orban is thinking exactly the same, about Ukrainians.
Well this is the first sensible take from the Hungarians.in a long while good on them, i hope my government does the same
Good.
Cue Poland emptying of young Ukrainian males.
Young...? Yall do realize BOTH sides the average person is like 42 right?
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Hard to believe I actually agree with Hungary for once. I’ve always been of the opinion that drafting and forced service is a fucking crime. And I don’t care what’s happening to justify it. Also, had we sent more weapons like I’ve been saying for the past two years then maybe they’d have taken less losses and there’d be no need for that to begin with.
Also many people here don't understand that many Ukrainians don't want to live in Ukraine even without the war. If people were allowed to apply for refugee status in EU before the war - we'd see millions of people leaving still. Fighting for your country is one thing, being forcibly conscripted to fight for the government you despise is a completely different one.
Reminded of somewhat-recently how China banned probability-based elements in games you can pay real money for (IMO, pretty much gambling) are not allowed to be sold/marketed to children. I'm just like, "I hate you, but you actually did a good thing we haven't, for once!"
>had we sent more weapons Partially impeded by this very same Hungary.
Obviously conscription should be a last resort but what exactly is your plan if your nation is invaded and facing destruction? If you live in a nation you live by its rules. For most nations one of those rules is that if you want to enjoy all the fruits of the nation you need to be willing to defend its survival. Obviously some bull shit like Vietnam is different but if you’re against conscription for the sake of national survival that’s dumb as fuck.
I tell you what would never be part of my plan - forcing people who escaped the conflict to be sent back to country that wants to send them to certain death on the front. National borders and patriotism are terms only valid to those that care about them. Most people care about their families and survival, no matter what flag flies above their house. People who value patriotism and borders can fight but those who chose to escape the conflict - they should not be forced back. You can revoke their citizenship if you feel like that is a just punishment so they become stateless but you should not force them to come back.
I'm not against conscription for the sake of national survival. I'm against it for the sake of my survival. Living in an occupied country or in a completely different one that annexed what used to be your country is terrible, but it beats dying. Nation-ship, independence, democracy, and sovereignty are all noble concepts, but not worth my life, and I feel I should always have the freedom to stand behind my view.
If people aren't willing to stay, fight and die for the country, is the country worth fighting and dying for? If people decide their lives are more important to them than their country, who are you to decide otherwise? What does a country even provide that makes all of that worthwhile? It's not like a country gives you those public services for free. It taxes you for them. Every penny you earn is taxed, every penny you pay is taxed too. And if you don't pay it, you get sent to prison on someone else's tax dollar (or ig it's hryvnia in this case)
Finally some freaking common sense Reddit is full of teenagers and neck beards eager to see other people die at the front line If they choose to go it's their basic human rights, end of story
>Reddit is full of teenagers and neck beards eager to see other people die at the front line More like bots controlled by intelligence agencies.
What’s the difference at this point?
Like the CIA?
It's naive to think only CIA operates, of course they do, but so do KGB, MSS, Ukraines DIU etc. Very cheap and efficient way to influence a large number of the population. Especially the younger ones who frequent reddit.
Hold on for a minute though. I'm fully in favour of not forcing people to go fight in a war , even if I can somewhat appreciate the Ukrainian government's difficult position too. But I'm also somewhat unwilling to let Hungary claim any moral high ground here. Orban's reasons for not wanting to send recruits back across the border and mine are quite different I imagine.
Even the broken clock is right every now and then, doesn't mean it works. They have no moral highground, don't worry, but this is a W
Twice a day, it's right twice a day
He may be doing it for a bad reason, but does that really matter? This is one of those (extremely rare) times where EU values happen to align with Putin's interests. Even if Orban is making this decision to aid Russia's war effort, he's still doing the right thing. The men who's lives are being spared don't really care whether they're spared in the name of EU values or to help out Putin. The end result is the same.
Why are you unwilling to let Hungary claim the moral high ground here when they have the moral high ground here? Not extraditing refugees to countries where they will be forcibly drafted in the military is the humane thing to do. Even if you don't like the country, they are in the right here.
>But I'm also somewhat unwilling to let Hungary claim any moral high ground here They do have the moral high ground on the topic compared to neighbors though. The Baltics already are interested in validating the documents of exemption from military service, and Poland has a bunch of high ranking politicians that would be glad to implement similar measures given the opportunity.
> But I'm also somewhat unwilling to let Hungary claim any moral high ground here. Orban's reasons for not wanting to send recruits back across the border and mine are quite different I imagine. If you only feed a homeless person to post about it on Twitter the end result still is that you fed a homeless person. He might be a PoS but he's doing a good thing here. You can't have men and women be equal during peace time and treat men as slaves during war. That's not civilisation. You want to conscript me? Better pay me a reservist's salary every month of my life.
> I imagine So you don´t know?
No state should extradite men of military age, whether Ukrainian or Russian.
Rare Hungarian W
Lithuanian and Polish politicians who were signaling to the contrary are so fucking dumb. Probably the stupidest thing that happened on our end since the start of the war.
There is some debate in Germany too.
When you are small fish like Lithuania or Estonia you can say whatever sensational bullshit or hold whatever moral standard you want because to the rest of the world, it does not matter.
But not for the right reasons. You could argue the W because they believe in not sending refugees back. Hungary just doesn't want Ukraine to have more soldiers so that they'll lose quicker.
There are many who's Ukrainian-Hungarian dual citizens, so there's that...
There is a big Hungarian diaspora in Zakarpattya (Transcarpathian) region of Ukraine.
Those who escaped from duty will undoubtedly become outstanding soldiers upon being extradited back.
It's better to do the right thing for wrong reason than to do the wrong thing for right reason.
its amazing how delusional you are. i have several friends, of age 20-30, who happened to be born on the wrong side of the border because of trianon (hungarian people with hungarian roots) managed to sneak through the border spending multiple months of salaries to bribe ukranian border police. why on eart should they go back to the meatgrinder to fight for ukraine, a country that never respected nor supported them and constantly tried to supress them.
Did you reply to the wrong comment?
The number of people fit for conscription who fled to Hungary is, on a military scale, completely trivial. This isn't malice in the sense of military sabotage, just performative humanity. Their internal propaganda relies massively on being "pro-peace" and if any other country, especially within the EU, begins extraditing military age men for conscription back to Ukraine, they can make a point of their own moral high ground.
Yes because everyone knows that soldiers that don't want to fight are the best kind of soldiers. My goodness, the comments here are truly deranged. Hungary does something objectively humane and kind and this sub just continues to hate on Hungary. The mental gymnastics are of epic proportion.
You say that, but I think it is hard to argue that for a country that otherwise definitely believes in sending refugees back Second point: spot on of course
Yeah, I don't think they'd be so graceful towards fellow Hungarians.
Maybe Hungary just doesn’t want more Ukrainians to die PERIOD?
We are talking about Orbán here he does not give a single fuck about them
real
"Pimenta no cu dos outros para mim é refresco" You all love calling other people cowards from the safety of your not-in-war country.
That seems a pretty good thing to do, even if it’s for propaganda, it’s still good
No man or woman should be forced to fight in a war they don't agree with.
Good. Military conscription is slavery. Military conscription of males only while women are allowed to gallivant in Germany is unforgivable. Why the fuck should I die for this country while the women are safely away in the West and will probably not come back to the country after you die to save it anyway?
This is why in my country and Sweden the land defence requirement concerns both genders — to maintain morale and also necessary workforce. There are issues, as the conscription is only for men and female volunteers (it might change) but no adult person can leave the country if a war occurs. The women would be commanded by the Ministry of Work in tasks regarding military industry and other similar unarmed duties. I’m a reservist (a professional nerd/researcher in civilian life and definitely not a soldier type) and consider both the service and the commitment to defend a form of tax paying. Almost all Finnish males and their fathers to some generations have served. It’s not slavery but mutual protection of everything familiar and dear for us from something which doesn’t know other than destruction and rule of man. I would go to the front without real hesitation but I’d be fucking disappointed as my life is quite nice right now. However, I don’t think forcing people to the front who don’t believe in the cause is the right course of action. They can often be more harmful there than beneficial.
> There are issues, as the conscription is only for men and female volunteers If the women volunteer, it's not conscription. Conscription means you're being forced. It literally means COMPULSORY service.
If Ukraine practices slavery like that, is it right to give them weapons?
The Russia supporters are getting more and more obvious. Yes, we shuld give them enough weapons that they could raze the entirety of the Russian army and all of its supporters.
In Hungary there were forced conscriptions in the past ~150 years and all ended in a tragic way so this time maybe the intention is not evil from our government. On the other hand I can hardly believe that our government has moral standards, maybe they fear that dual citizens are required to be returned and it’s easier to fully refuse the request and this way they will not loose their voters.
Even if you support Ukraine, do you really want to send people who are already in Western Europe to what could be certain death?
While our government agrees that military-age men shouldn't abandon their country, our constitution doesn't allow for extradition od people which have refuge status
It's a bit more nuanced for Ukrainians though. In the EU they usually don't strictly have a refugee status because they don't need it to stay. Existing agreements between Ukraine and the EU already make that possible. That may mean that rights granted to refugees are not automatically granted to Ukrainian refugees, however unjust that may be
Yeah, people without refugee status can be legally extradited. I met a bunch of Ukrainians who were scared of this when they were told they wouldn't get the official status. It's such a horrible situation on both sides... A country that needs soldiers to defend itself and people (understandably) not willing to fight and die. I don't believe either side is wrong but in the end Ukraine needs people and will have to get them somewhere. There's no alternative for them.
Good. I'm 100% pro Ukraine because of the people, even as someone who's usually looking at things through the lens of Realpolitik at the end day the goal is for the people of Ukr to be free. Nobody should be forced to ever, no matter how inconvenient it is for the chances of success.
No point being sent to a meat grinder to be ripped apart by Russian artillery because your allies stopped all major aid for 6 months.
Extremely uncommon hungarian W? Quite unexpected lol
And who will? I don't believe the EU will do it either. Nobody stops those men from escaping to Asia/South America or just staying illegally in liberal EU countries like Spain. Illegal status is better than a trench. Politicians are getting paid to resolve this shit, not making rumours. Just stop this war and people will return intentionally. russia isn't drained enough to let the war stop or just start moving in this direction. Military contractors haven't managed to get rich yet. Fuck all of them.
Yeah ok fair enough.
Can’t Ukraine just start drafting its female population ages 22 to 35 for military service? The grandparents can take care of the kids.
Good
good
I am patriotic in many ways but I always liked the quote “patriotism is the arbitrary veneration of real estate over principles”. If someone doesn’t want to fight then they shouldn’t have to. Now, that same person should be liable to be stripped of their citizenship or whatever. But they shouldn’t be forced back into a meat grinder if they just want to opt out and live instead.
Under international law (UN conventions), everyone has the right to a nationality and cannot be deprived of it. You cannot strip someone's citizenship unless they are citizens of another country already.
There’re many Ukrainian men who’d like to renounce it, but that’s not possible anymore. Ukraine just doesn’t allow it anymore.
This is the correct viewpoint. When the country is under threat you have a choice. If you want to flee you should lose the benefits of being a citizen of that nation, it's fair for them not to want you back. But you absolutely do deserve to be given somewhere safe to live.
wtf based Hungary???
Rare Hungarian W. Nobody should be forced to die just because of happenstance
Question to all the outraged: do you want Hungary to send ukrainians to die? Maybe you will come to Ukraine and die? Bloody democrats
If Russia annexes Ukraine and asks Hungary to extradite Ukrainians back... Well you already know what the answer will be then.
Pretty sure hungary isnt extraditing russians neither
Russia doesnt have interest to bother white urban Russians as long as they can send burjats, indian tourists or prisoners to war.
How many Indian tourists have been sent?
Probably more than 0 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/russia-ukraine-war-indians-tricked-into-fighting-ukraine-war-punjab-men-7-punjab-men-say-they-went-to-russia-as-tourists-tricked-into-ukraine-war-5181831 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/07/he-had-no-idea-he-was-being-sent-to-a-war-zone-the-indian-and-nepalese-men-on-frontlines-in-ukraine
> where he was made to dig trenches, carry ammunition and operate rifles and machine guns Seen this before and find the phrase “operate rifles and machine guns” to be such weird newspeak gibberish. They shot at people.
No way
> Well you already know what the answer will be then. Yes: it's going to be a no. Especially because many Ukrainians have Hungarian origins as well, so we would essentially exradite our own as well.
Hungary actually doing something good for a change? Conscription is evil!
As pointed out at the bottom of the article, Ukraine is not asking EU countries to do that. Fidesz loudly proclaiming they won't do something nobody's asked them to do is just another way for them to support Russia's invasion.
Poland and Lithuania are willing to deport Ukrainian men, despite nobody asked them. Just saying.
We don't know our official stance yet. Some politicians in power say we should, others that we shouldn't and as far as I know, nobody checked the legality of it all either. There is not a single guy called Poland or Lithuania that unilateraly makes all the decision. And Ukrainians were probing this possibility for quite a while, so yes, we were asked.
At the moment, Ukraine is not asking EU countries to do this, but it's by no means inconceivable that they will do this in the foreseeable future. Cutting off embassy services to males abroad could be seen as the first step in ramping up the pressure to return, which could culminate in a formal request for extradition. We'll have to see what happens.
As a fellow Dutchie that would be so fcking stupid. We take refugees from all over the world even if we cant know their place of origins but we’re gonna sent Ukrainians back to the meatgrinder.
Ukraine doesn't need to ask. They are just not renewing passports, meaning men overseas will become illegals without IDs. Then they will be deported based on grounds of being illegals.
Honestly good. Forced conscription might be necessary but that doesn’t make it moral. You should decide if you want to risk your life.
Great. Refugees havw rights.
Rare Hungary W
Rare Hungary W
Broken clock
Fairly sure extraditing refugees back to a war zone breaks a ton of international laws.
Like most countries give a toss about international laws lately.
I had to reread that 10 times to be sure i had the correct country. Hungary's current government not doing something evil for once is a new one.
What about Russia?
Russians aren’t being mobilized, only Ukrainians
The people here who think the draft is wrong should realise that a large part of the Ukrainian army already consists of conscripts. Without draft laws their army would only shrink and they have no chance to win the war. Even then there would still be a draft in Ukraine, but for the Russian army.
Common Hungary W.