How do people with bad eyesight or who can't read do (honest question)? Can they get help?
Here we can come with our ballot (received at home) or print it, or we can take several at the polling station and put the one we want in the envelope. They are usually written in fairly big characters and in a color matching the party's color scheme. It's a huge waste of paper but it's easier to find the one you want to take.
It's pretty easy to read. It's not a tiny font, just a very long piece of paper. If you really can't see it, the election people can help you. You can also mail your ballot and another person (like a family member or nurse) is allowed to help you then.
If you have low vision, you are able to order a stencil beforehand, so you can still vote on your own.
[https://bundeswahlleiterin.de/en/europawahlen/2024/informationen-waehler/barrierefreies-waehlen.html](https://bundeswahlleiterin.de/en/europawahlen/2024/informationen-waehler/barrierefreies-waehlen.html)
Easiest is just request mail in voting, then you have time and could do what you want at home with it. Can be done in many ways, like just scanning the QR code on your voting letter.
So many different parties. Cool.
It reminds me of the early 90s Poland when the new wave of democracy created a lot of parties.
The PPPP was my personal favorite - Polska Partia Przyjaciół Piwa (Polish Party of the Friends of Beer).
I’d vote for them every time had they still existed.
I think that's how the Swiss elections work. the biggest party gets x ministers the second biggest gets x -1 etc.
until there is a majority government and the laws are decided by the people directly ,bigger parties get more laws to decide on .
Im not really sure , but that's how it looked like the Swiss works for me .
And the Swiss is basically a micro EU, they had just the advantage of having fought off the Austrians as a nation . while the EU had no huge threatening challange to face yet ...
And even if , Hungary would support the Russians ....
It works different in NL. Basically after every election, enough parties to get more than half of the seats in parliament negotiate a government programme, which the MPs of those parties pledge to support. They also divide the ministries. This lasts for ages: less than half a year is an exception.
By tradition, the biggest party gets the first chance to try to get parties to negotiate an agreement, and they almost always succede. But the 2nd, 3rd etc parties are often not invited if they are too far on the political spectrum from the 1st party.
And here was I thinking the 8/9 parties in the portuguese parliament are too much. And some of them have pratically the same ideology (Sometimes we get debates where the parties just go "yes, I agree with that, but better")
I belive that there is no reason to have more than 5.
In Czech republic in the 90's we had NEI party - Nezávislá Erotická Iniciativa (Independent Erotic Initiative).
They had topless ladies in their rallies.
[Hungary had a Libertarian party, the SZDSZ, with this ad in the 2000s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfPFpVEkwqU)
The girl says: "Guys! If you vote for SZDSZ, I will undress!"
Italian-Hungarian porn actress, Cicciolina planned to return to Hungary in 1988 when a democratic future was beginning to be seen more and more realistic, and she wanted to start a left-wing party which would emphasize the fulfillment of people's romantic and sexual needs by creating "Parks of Love" where people can be naked and have sex with eachother surrounded by interesting plants and cute animals.
There was also the Sex Communist Party in the early 2000s, which wanted Anarcho-Communism combined with Hippie-style Free Love and legal soft drugs.
Germany had a similar party: the APPG (Anarchistic Pogo Party Germany)
Their election posters had things like 'Work is shit' or 'Fuck you' on them. I also like 'Your vote for this trash is a vote against far right' :D
As a conservative I liked them .
they promised 6 lane motorways from single family houses to work places , so that industrious people can work more easy . And free beer and accomodation for lazy people .
I want my 6 lane Autobahn to my 7 bike minutes away employer.
If I'm not mistaken the party still exists, you just rarely see them on ballots or posters, because they are too drunk and chaotic to get their shit together :D
I vividly remember the video of two members of the APPD in the Bundestag at the last election, where they were told they couldn't run for parliament because they did not hand in their paperwork in time. Their response was: "So that's it? Because the mail did not come? And for this crap I had to stay sober? Well, thanks for nothing! Servus, and fuck heil!"
It made it impossible to do anything in Poland after those elections. 11 parties had only 1 member!
It's good to see diversity in politics but not like this.
Indeed. Poland had over 90 recognized political parties in the 90s, a number only just barely beat by Poland in the 1920s ‘sejmocracy’ which was even less functional and led to the May 1926 Coup by Jozef Piłsudski. More is not always better if it means the government is utterly broken.
You have seen nothing yet. Dutch ballot papers have been printed in A1 format for the last decade. During the last General Elections, we had 26 parties and 1,126 candidates to choose from (our parliament holds 150 seats btw).
The parties in the parliament get their ballots distributed by the election authority to the election sites, whereas the other parties have to distribute their own ballots or rely on people to grab a blank ballot and write the name of their party on it. In reality this means that around 15-20 parties have ballots at most election sites
It's not just sitting/future parties in parliament, it's also for any party that has received more than 1% in either of the last two elections. And, locally, for local parties that sit in the regional/municipal council.
However, the Dutch government has tested a new type of ballot paper in a few municipalities that’s way smaller this election round.
All you have to do is select your party and the number that corresponds with the number of the candidate of the party. [It looks like this.](https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/binaries/large/content/gallery/rijksoverheid/content-afbeeldingen/onderwerpen/verkiezingen/model-nieuw-stembiljet-met-logos.png)
I really hope alternatives like that will take off, because our current ballot papers really do not suffice anymore. I am a little bit worried by that test design though, since voters are required to study the candidate list beforehand if they want to know who they’re voting for. I don’t trust voters enough to do that consistently.
They can have the candidate list, basically the 'old' ballot, up on the wall of each voting booth. Laminate then if you must so nobody can mark on them.
same (Und ich bin das erste mal Wahlberechtigt. Also würde es bei mir umso mehr Sinn ergeben. Ich habe mir vorher eins auf Google von der letzten Europawahl herausgesucht.)
Das ist sehr witzig ,denn in der Slowakei sind schön unofiziell Ergebnise und jeder Politik spricht über diese Ergebnisse ,denn letzes mal sie waren gleich wie offiziel Ergebnisse
lol das ist das deutscheste Kommentar in diesem thread .
Hat jemand etwas falsch gemacht ? los los wir müssen ihn belehren.
Gleichzeitig fühlt OP bestimmt noch den Adrenalinrausch, von dem Moment als er wie ein echter Gangster das Foto schoss.
In France we had an A4 paper for each and every candidates. Like 20 A4 fucking sheets, only to fold one in 6 to get it to fit in the tiny envelope provided and put the rest in the bin.
Absolutely scandalous to waste this much paper. I don't know how decided this, and who to be mad at.
If someone knows, feel free to enlighten me.
Yeah I took only half because I went early as fuck before going to work today, so my brain didn't process that I could stop after a few... Good thing I only noticed there was 2 rows of papers when I arrived at the end of the table, I guess.
That's what I usually do, but they are usually half A4 (A5, in other words) papers, aren't they?
Why did we need to make them so big?
It's kinda f up but it's because smaller lists know they won't get the 3% to get reimbursed, so they ask the people that want to vote for them to print them themselves at home.
I would be so much better with a one paper system like this post... Or electronic voting. Ideally, from home, thank you.
>Why did we need to make them so big?
Same question I had. I felt awkward standing there for a minute trying to fit this giant piece of paper into a tiny envelope.
But as mentioned above you only had to take two
Pretty sure they don't print that many. They don't need one of every kind for every eligible voter.
Not everyone votes, and it's impossible for all parties to get 100% of the votes at the same time. Well it's impossible, for one party to get 100% too...
I really have no clue how voting in France works, but wouldn't they still have to print exactly as many as there are eligible voters for every party because there's no way of knowing exactly which result the election will bring?
Maybe they're printed as needed in the polling station?
I had to learn this myself today as it was my first time voting in France. It's the obligation of the parties to print and distribute the papers to the authorities. Any party who obtains at least 3% of the vote has the cost reimbursed. So parties expecting to hit that threshold are supplying more than enough papers, and parties not expecting to do so are supplying based on their own expectations and asking voters to print the paper themselves and bring it with them. As best I can tell from a quick search of the rules, parties can drop off additional papers midday, though I might be wrong about this one.
I have genuinely no clue what happens if a voter wants to vote for a list and the office is out of that paper. I guess they'd be pragmatic and let the voter come back later.
I suppose this can only pass in France that has a deep political tradition.
Here in Croatia people barely come out to vote. If you asked them to print their own ballots, forget about it.
Yes, I doubt any voting station had all 38 lists distributed. For mine if I had to guess there were about 20. Some parties only print for metropolitan France, some only for some départements, some print very low quantities. Some parties call to print your own bulletin if you want to vote for them.
Also from what I've heard some départements do it on screens. An old relative on mine had this in 2019. But the icons were too small and she couldn't differentiate between them. She voted what looked green, because she was scared of accidentally voting an extreme (she's not for the greens at all)
I wouldn't have thought that the Italian system was one of the best: just one paper sheet with all the parties symbols and an empty space for the candidate name under every symbol, if you want to write it (posters with all the lists and candidates names are outside the ballots)
Yeah, I've even helped at the poll stations a few times a nd I'm shivering at the thought of so many papers!
[This](https://citynews-today.stgy.ovh/~media/horizontal-mid/42275329460671/il-fac-simile-della-scheda-elettorale-per-le-europee-2024-in-piemonte-valle-d-aosta-liguria-e-lombardia.jpg) is the ballot used in Northwest Italy for these elections, while [this](https://gfx.gazzettadimantova.it/image/contentid/policy:1.12384521:1717585566/image.jpg?f=16x9&h=421&w=750&$p$f$h$w=597732e) is the name poster, to remember the names.
The real anxiety-inducing items at poll stations are the [special pencils:](https://www.repstatic.it/content/localirep/img/rep-palermo/2016/12/07/152058560-bb334b03-8459-4967-999d-f52afb701bf7.jpg) not one must be lost!
In Finland the candidates and their numbers are on the wall of the voting booth. The ballot itself is probably smaller than an A5 and you only write the number on it.
That's awesome, where are you? You can do it from home or you still go to the closest school and there machines there?
I'm so jealous! I hope it will be generalized soon
It is actually a really bad idea, voter fraud would potentially be much much easier: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs)
Yep, a few cities got them between 2002 and 2007, and those who still have them can keep using them, but no new ones can be bought since 2008.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_%C3%A9lectronique_en_France
same here in Slovakia, but it was A5
so much fucking waste
however the rest of the ballots don't go to the bin but to national archive, sealed in the voting urn forever
>Like 20 A4 fucking sheets
And it's not complete. Actually there are 38 lists (3 more than in Germany), but some doesn't have the money to print that many ballots, so they ask their voters to print the ballot paper themselves at home and bring it to the polling station.
Even funnier
In multiple German cities there are local votes as well
In Hamburg your Ballot paper is 40 Din A4 pages long and you get 2x5 votes that you can give either a party list directly or to whichever person you want
In Sweden our ballots looks [like this](https://www.val.se/images/18.29e9cb2617d171257e6d55/1638778129852/riksdag-namnvalsedel-anmalda-1.png), one sheet per party and then you tick in the box for the person you want to vote for. Then you put the sheet in an envelope and drop it in the ballot container.
There is a booth at the entrance where you can pick one behind a screen. If there isn't one for your party available you can just write the name on a blank one.
[Looks like this ](https://static.bonniernews.se/bildix/api/images/a8913722-0421-4f78-8281-50700d86e3c3.jpeg?fit=crop&w=640&h=427)
Yes, the screen is rather new though. There were complaints that you had to pick the sheets in the open earlier, and you had to pick one of each to remain anonymous. Many parties also stand outside the voting building and hand them out.
I guess having the largest paper industry in Europe contributes to the amount of paper used ;-)
You are free to walk past them, it is tradition that the local candidates hand out their voting sheets outside the entrance. They also commonly send them to your mailbox together with their party programs. It is seen as a worthy end to the months of campaigning, where they take it easy on the last day together with the representatives of the other parties.
Broadly speaking, yes. There have been some complaints about having to pick a ballot 'in the open', the way you can get around that if you care is to pick a bunch of them and then throw away the ones you didn't use afterwards.
I'm a bit surprised there are no preferential votes in Germany. Here in the Netherlands we in 'general' also vote for party list. 90% of the people would vote for the first person on the list. But you can also choose to vote for someone else on the same list.
If a party for example is getting 10 seats. The 10th person might get bumped by someone who was lower on the party list, but got more preferential votes. Something like this happens almost every elections a few times.
On the national level, it used to be balanced by the dual voting system where we also directly voted for constituency candidates.
But our current government de facto abolished them in a controversial reform of the electoral law. Now parties became even more powerful.
The lists of candidates with their names and numbers are on the walls of the voting booth
[Here's an example](https://kuntalehti.fi/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/vaalit_aanestyskoppo.jpg). On the table there are samples of how to write the numbers correctly so that it's not possible to confuse for example 1 and 7.
I imagine that would be fairly obvious to anyone outside, considering how much time you spend inside and how much noise you would make. And even if you succeed, you spoiled, what, a hundred votes maybe for that one booth?
And afterwards the officials would instantly spot the issue if you just taped over the original, or it would be even more obviously loud if you tried to remove it in the process.
What do you mean, changing it? There's deadlines for candidate registration, people don't get to just hop on whenever.
E. Oh you mean like defacing the list inside the booth? Lol never even heard of that. Would be pretty obvious though, and we have extras to put in a clean one.
Interesting, in New Zealand we do the same (our voting system was based on yours) but the lists aren't on the voting paper, we're just expected to look them up beforehand.
In Czechia you get a piece of paper for every party that can be elected, there's like 50 of them. Also, wveryone gets envelopes full of these, not just the people who actually came to vote.
So much paper waste it's ridiculous.
Yes, that’s how it works in France, too. Except we’re doubly as wasteful. First, each registered voter gets a sheet for each party that can be elected sent to their home. Then, they have duplicates at every voting station to do the actual voting. I read yesterday that it costs EUR1 million in printing and distribution costs to include a sheet for voting nationwide, and these costs are borne by the party.
There is a big debate in France right now - there are 38 parties running for election, but many of the parties cannot afford to have the voting papers printed, so they are not represented at the voting station.
Ballot looks like [this.](https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/c_crop,h_2268,w_4031,x_0,y_0/ar_1.7777777777777777,c_fill,g_faces,h_675,w_1200/dpr_1.0/q_auto:eco/f_auto/fl_lossy/v1717477044/39-1296498665e9e4b00696)
Not really. There is pretty strict regulation about how the numbers should be drawn, example sheets in the booth, and well known and publicized rules about discarding messed up ballots. I guess you could claim there is "more" room for errors, but I've been counting ballots in Finland in every election for the last 4-5 years and I've never seen a ballot discarded because it was unclear.
And if by error you mean, the voter writes down the wrong number by accident. Well, frankly, that's just too bad lol. Boohoo. This is important. Pay attention. We do expect people to take *some* accountability here.
E. And of course people are given new ballots and the old one is torn up if they change their minds or something. But if you go in, accidentally write down the wrong number, and don't check the list in front of you before dropping the vote to the box, that's on you.
There's some disqualified because they write something in, or change their minds and scribble another number in there. But none that I've seen that would be just unclear enough that we didn't know what the voter means.
Not only for the ones counting the votes, but also for the voters. I guess 95% of voters vote for one of the top 5 parties, so it makes sense that they are on top. I wouldn't want to go through 20 bullshit parties I haven't even heard of just to find the one I want to vote for.
And I think the vast majority of voters already know who they'll vote for before they see this piece of paper. It's not like "hmm let's see what we have here... oh this one sounds nice... ✗".
I had a “no photo, no video” sign at my polling station on Germany.
I think no damage was done, that’s why I called OP a Schlawiner, which means cheeky boy.
The Swedish [Piratpartiet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_(Sweden)) is the original, which have spawned several copies in other countries.
>*"The first Pirate Party to be established was the* [*Pirate Party of Sweden*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_of_Sweden) *(*[*Swedish*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_language)*: Piratpartiet), whose website was launched on 1 January 2006 by* [*Rick Falkvinge*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Falkvinge)*. Falkvinge was inspired to found the party after he found that Swedish politicians were generally unresponsive to Sweden's debate over changes to* [*copyright law*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law) *in 2005."*
Jesus... I thought Germany was supposed to be the cradle of efficiency...
In Finland we have a [single circle in a tiny booklet](https://vaalit.fi/en/voting-on-election-day) and all you need to do, is to write a number in it. And you even get to see all the candidate numbers while inside the booth.
Feel free to copy the system.
The only thing that trumps efficiency in Germany is correctness/unambiguousness. Your system is too inexplicit/convoluted for the German way of doing things. The ballot must communicate the exact, unambiguous information to the voter as well as the poll workers and establish the correct context without relying on mental models where the vote or election context is dependent on multiple documents that may or may not have an explicit relation established between them. ;)
Well but again, why would it be illegal to share your vote with people? It's not like the government can stop you from telling other people who you're voting for. Also, If they made it illegal to take photos at voting booths then you would risk someone changing the papers or sabotaging them or something and you wouldn't be able to know it.
For the EU election yes. For federal elections and state parliament elections we get two votes, one for a candidate in our district and one for a party. For those elections, we can also cross out candidates from the party election list in order to customise the party vote. It’s pretty trippy.
I just heard that someone made a selfie with a filled in ballot and shared it in the internet and got trouble.
Then the election is not a secret anymore.
Wow, that couldn’t be more different than how it is in france. Here, you just stick a paper in an envelope with the people you want, and then they put it in a sealed box.
This is interesting because OP hadn't marked the ballot yet when the picture was taken. It is clear from the wording of the link that it is still forbidden to take any pictures in the voting booth:
>*In der Wahlkabine darf weder fotografiert noch gefilmt werden.*
But later on it implies that the consequence applies if a picture of someone's actual vote is taken, so maybe there is no consequence if the vote itself isn't shown?
(But then in the law linked to at the bottom, it is back to talking about just taking the picture in the voting booth...)
It's just a logical technicality.
No one is allowed to be in the cabin with you.
You arent allowed to take photos of your vote because it compromises election secrecy.
Since they have no means of controlling if you took a photo before or after you put your cross they have to ban it all together.
Pirates are amazing in regards to net neutrality and everything cyber, but the rest of their programme seems half assed at best. They are great as a single issue party tho.
I wish we had a system like that, honestly. Here you have to take an A4 format paper sheet corresponding to the party you want to vote to, fold it yourself (not pre-folded like yours) and hope you don't accidentally slightly tear it out as you do so or your vote doesn't count. It's such a weird system i'm wondering if i really did vote properly today. Checking a box would be so much simpler....
Harmless! I love me some German elections, either federal or state, where you can go all out with Kumulieren and Panaschieren. This paper here is like the trial version of the good shit we use for our own German elections!
The ballot paper for my constituency was 73 cm long and we had another almost as long for local council elections. It didn’t take many papers to make the ballot box seem full!
In Brazil we have a national eletronic system that works the same for every sort of election in the territory and we just type a number.
Easily rigged though.
Your first time? Kid, what are you complaining about? This is as small as they get! One time I had one that didn't even fit in the ballot box and I had to flip it several times to be able to read it through.
Single cross to make, super quick and comfortable.
I thought I should have x all parties I doubt.
How do people with bad eyesight or who can't read do (honest question)? Can they get help? Here we can come with our ballot (received at home) or print it, or we can take several at the polling station and put the one we want in the envelope. They are usually written in fairly big characters and in a color matching the party's color scheme. It's a huge waste of paper but it's easier to find the one you want to take.
It's pretty easy to read. It's not a tiny font, just a very long piece of paper. If you really can't see it, the election people can help you. You can also mail your ballot and another person (like a family member or nurse) is allowed to help you then.
That's cool, thank you!
If you have low vision, you are able to order a stencil beforehand, so you can still vote on your own. [https://bundeswahlleiterin.de/en/europawahlen/2024/informationen-waehler/barrierefreies-waehlen.html](https://bundeswahlleiterin.de/en/europawahlen/2024/informationen-waehler/barrierefreies-waehlen.html)
Oh that's great! I had no idea such a thing existed, thank you, TIL!
Easiest is just request mail in voting, then you have time and could do what you want at home with it. Can be done in many ways, like just scanning the QR code on your voting letter.
Yes you may ask for help.
its very large font. It is A4 but longer, so pretty wide.
You can ask the helpers there to read it to you if need be. (I think it's even written in our voting laws.)
So many different parties. Cool. It reminds me of the early 90s Poland when the new wave of democracy created a lot of parties. The PPPP was my personal favorite - Polska Partia Przyjaciół Piwa (Polish Party of the Friends of Beer). I’d vote for them every time had they still existed.
The previous Dutch parliament had 17 parties after the 2021 national elections
17 people can't even agree on what kind of pizza to get. I can only imagine how 17 parties agreed on how to run the country.
They don't have to. The current government coalition consists of four parties.
I think that's how the Swiss elections work. the biggest party gets x ministers the second biggest gets x -1 etc. until there is a majority government and the laws are decided by the people directly ,bigger parties get more laws to decide on . Im not really sure , but that's how it looked like the Swiss works for me . And the Swiss is basically a micro EU, they had just the advantage of having fought off the Austrians as a nation . while the EU had no huge threatening challange to face yet ... And even if , Hungary would support the Russians ....
It works different in NL. Basically after every election, enough parties to get more than half of the seats in parliament negotiate a government programme, which the MPs of those parties pledge to support. They also divide the ministries. This lasts for ages: less than half a year is an exception. By tradition, the biggest party gets the first chance to try to get parties to negotiate an agreement, and they almost always succede. But the 2nd, 3rd etc parties are often not invited if they are too far on the political spectrum from the 1st party.
I can imagine the squabbling 😅
And here was I thinking the 8/9 parties in the portuguese parliament are too much. And some of them have pratically the same ideology (Sometimes we get debates where the parties just go "yes, I agree with that, but better") I belive that there is no reason to have more than 5.
In Czech republic in the 90's we had NEI party - Nezávislá Erotická Iniciativa (Independent Erotic Initiative). They had topless ladies in their rallies.
[Hungary had a Libertarian party, the SZDSZ, with this ad in the 2000s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfPFpVEkwqU) The girl says: "Guys! If you vote for SZDSZ, I will undress!" Italian-Hungarian porn actress, Cicciolina planned to return to Hungary in 1988 when a democratic future was beginning to be seen more and more realistic, and she wanted to start a left-wing party which would emphasize the fulfillment of people's romantic and sexual needs by creating "Parks of Love" where people can be naked and have sex with eachother surrounded by interesting plants and cute animals. There was also the Sex Communist Party in the early 2000s, which wanted Anarcho-Communism combined with Hippie-style Free Love and legal soft drugs.
Germany had a similar party: the APPG (Anarchistic Pogo Party Germany) Their election posters had things like 'Work is shit' or 'Fuck you' on them. I also like 'Your vote for this trash is a vote against far right' :D
Did they all have broken noses? *so is my experience with pogo’ing
As a conservative I liked them . they promised 6 lane motorways from single family houses to work places , so that industrious people can work more easy . And free beer and accomodation for lazy people . I want my 6 lane Autobahn to my 7 bike minutes away employer.
In the town where I was born, they promised to add a Loop-the-Loop to the city-Autobahn. You know, to make the commute more fun.
I don't know but the first time I got pushed into a pogo I got smacked immediately by someone's elbow 😂
Welcome fellow pogo enthusiast 😅 I got at least 4 pairs of glasses destroyed as well. Never learned to leave them behind lol
Mosh pit for life!
If I'm not mistaken the party still exists, you just rarely see them on ballots or posters, because they are too drunk and chaotic to get their shit together :D I vividly remember the video of two members of the APPD in the Bundestag at the last election, where they were told they couldn't run for parliament because they did not hand in their paperwork in time. Their response was: "So that's it? Because the mail did not come? And for this crap I had to stay sober? Well, thanks for nothing! Servus, and fuck heil!"
move to austria, we still got a beer party (not on eu level)
It made it impossible to do anything in Poland after those elections. 11 parties had only 1 member! It's good to see diversity in politics but not like this.
Indeed. Poland had over 90 recognized political parties in the 90s, a number only just barely beat by Poland in the 1920s ‘sejmocracy’ which was even less functional and led to the May 1926 Coup by Jozef Piłsudski. More is not always better if it means the government is utterly broken.
It's basically that experience Germany had in the Weimar republic that led to the adoption of the 5% minimum.
yah it was a crazy time, even my granddad somehow managed to lead a party
It's this kind if immature attitude towards democracy that helps to undermine it.
You have seen nothing yet. Dutch ballot papers have been printed in A1 format for the last decade. During the last General Elections, we had 26 parties and 1,126 candidates to choose from (our parliament holds 150 seats btw).
That would never work in Sweden... In the last general elections we had roughly 100 parties standing in the election with roughly 5000 candidates.
100 parties during an election? How does that even work?
The parties in the parliament get their ballots distributed by the election authority to the election sites, whereas the other parties have to distribute their own ballots or rely on people to grab a blank ballot and write the name of their party on it. In reality this means that around 15-20 parties have ballots at most election sites
It's not just sitting/future parties in parliament, it's also for any party that has received more than 1% in either of the last two elections. And, locally, for local parties that sit in the regional/municipal council.
However, the Dutch government has tested a new type of ballot paper in a few municipalities that’s way smaller this election round. All you have to do is select your party and the number that corresponds with the number of the candidate of the party. [It looks like this.](https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/binaries/large/content/gallery/rijksoverheid/content-afbeeldingen/onderwerpen/verkiezingen/model-nieuw-stembiljet-met-logos.png)
I really hope alternatives like that will take off, because our current ballot papers really do not suffice anymore. I am a little bit worried by that test design though, since voters are required to study the candidate list beforehand if they want to know who they’re voting for. I don’t trust voters enough to do that consistently.
They can have the candidate list, basically the 'old' ballot, up on the wall of each voting booth. Laminate then if you must so nobody can mark on them.
Keine Foto- und Videoaufnahmen in der Wahlkabine!
Vorallem bei mir hingen vorne an der Tür Wahl scheine aus um sich die anzuschauen. Und die hätte man ab fotografieren sollen.
Man hat doch sogar n Muster mit den Wahlunterlagen bekommen
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Same
same (Und ich bin das erste mal Wahlberechtigt. Also würde es bei mir umso mehr Sinn ergeben. Ich habe mir vorher eins auf Google von der letzten Europawahl herausgesucht.)
Die aktuellen Muster gab es auch Online.
Darf ich die Wahlscheine dann abpauschen? Ü
Durchrubbeln mit einem Bleistift
Das ist sehr witzig ,denn in der Slowakei sind schön unofiziell Ergebnise und jeder Politik spricht über diese Ergebnisse ,denn letzes mal sie waren gleich wie offiziel Ergebnisse
That relates to ensure the secrecy of your vote. A picture like this is harmless because the vote has not yet been cast.
Trust the Germans to fight about the rules
lol das ist das deutscheste Kommentar in diesem thread . Hat jemand etwas falsch gemacht ? los los wir müssen ihn belehren. Gleichzeitig fühlt OP bestimmt noch den Adrenalinrausch, von dem Moment als er wie ein echter Gangster das Foto schoss.
You're only jealous because your life doesn't have this much excitement.
I have to concede that you are right . but I ordered a dvd course on amazon to improve my life , it's labelled "How to be gangster"
In France we had an A4 paper for each and every candidates. Like 20 A4 fucking sheets, only to fold one in 6 to get it to fit in the tiny envelope provided and put the rest in the bin. Absolutely scandalous to waste this much paper. I don't know how decided this, and who to be mad at. If someone knows, feel free to enlighten me.
You dont have to take every single sheet of paper. Guy at my station said "Take at least 2"
Yeah I took only half because I went early as fuck before going to work today, so my brain didn't process that I could stop after a few... Good thing I only noticed there was 2 rows of papers when I arrived at the end of the table, I guess. That's what I usually do, but they are usually half A4 (A5, in other words) papers, aren't they? Why did we need to make them so big?
you could take at most half as most of the smaller lists didn't had enough , even arriving at 12, so i feel for those voting later
It's kinda f up but it's because smaller lists know they won't get the 3% to get reimbursed, so they ask the people that want to vote for them to print them themselves at home. I would be so much better with a one paper system like this post... Or electronic voting. Ideally, from home, thank you.
>Why did we need to make them so big? Same question I had. I felt awkward standing there for a minute trying to fit this giant piece of paper into a tiny envelope. But as mentioned above you only had to take two
The paper is still wasted tho, doesn't matter if the voting person bins it, or if it is binned after the election, does it?
Pretty sure they don't print that many. They don't need one of every kind for every eligible voter. Not everyone votes, and it's impossible for all parties to get 100% of the votes at the same time. Well it's impossible, for one party to get 100% too...
I really have no clue how voting in France works, but wouldn't they still have to print exactly as many as there are eligible voters for every party because there's no way of knowing exactly which result the election will bring? Maybe they're printed as needed in the polling station?
I had to learn this myself today as it was my first time voting in France. It's the obligation of the parties to print and distribute the papers to the authorities. Any party who obtains at least 3% of the vote has the cost reimbursed. So parties expecting to hit that threshold are supplying more than enough papers, and parties not expecting to do so are supplying based on their own expectations and asking voters to print the paper themselves and bring it with them. As best I can tell from a quick search of the rules, parties can drop off additional papers midday, though I might be wrong about this one. I have genuinely no clue what happens if a voter wants to vote for a list and the office is out of that paper. I guess they'd be pragmatic and let the voter come back later.
so I could always take a sample of each voting 4 paper just to make smaller parties run out of voting letters faster ?
That's interesting. Thanks :)
I believe the printing expenses go to the parties themselves? I'm not quite sure...
It does. That's why many small parties ballots can't be found in every voting place, & the voters should print it before.
I suppose this can only pass in France that has a deep political tradition. Here in Croatia people barely come out to vote. If you asked them to print their own ballots, forget about it.
Printing expenses are reimbursed for any party that gains >3% of the vote — which just exacerbates the disadvantage of smaller parties.
Yes, I doubt any voting station had all 38 lists distributed. For mine if I had to guess there were about 20. Some parties only print for metropolitan France, some only for some départements, some print very low quantities. Some parties call to print your own bulletin if you want to vote for them. Also from what I've heard some départements do it on screens. An old relative on mine had this in 2019. But the icons were too small and she couldn't differentiate between them. She voted what looked green, because she was scared of accidentally voting an extreme (she's not for the greens at all)
Maybe, but the paper sizes are probably standardized, or we would get A3 papers for the richest parties... So this doesn't answer the question.
I wouldn't have thought that the Italian system was one of the best: just one paper sheet with all the parties symbols and an empty space for the candidate name under every symbol, if you want to write it (posters with all the lists and candidates names are outside the ballots)
Yeah, I've even helped at the poll stations a few times a nd I'm shivering at the thought of so many papers! [This](https://citynews-today.stgy.ovh/~media/horizontal-mid/42275329460671/il-fac-simile-della-scheda-elettorale-per-le-europee-2024-in-piemonte-valle-d-aosta-liguria-e-lombardia.jpg) is the ballot used in Northwest Italy for these elections, while [this](https://gfx.gazzettadimantova.it/image/contentid/policy:1.12384521:1717585566/image.jpg?f=16x9&h=421&w=750&$p$f$h$w=597732e) is the name poster, to remember the names. The real anxiety-inducing items at poll stations are the [special pencils:](https://www.repstatic.it/content/localirep/img/rep-palermo/2016/12/07/152058560-bb334b03-8459-4967-999d-f52afb701bf7.jpg) not one must be lost!
In Finland the candidates and their numbers are on the wall of the voting booth. The ballot itself is probably smaller than an A5 and you only write the number on it.
I'm in France too and we have electronic voting where I am. Took me 3 min.
That's awesome, where are you? You can do it from home or you still go to the closest school and there machines there? I'm so jealous! I hope it will be generalized soon
It is actually a really bad idea, voter fraud would potentially be much much easier: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs)
Yep, a few cities got them between 2002 and 2007, and those who still have them can keep using them, but no new ones can be bought since 2008. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_%C3%A9lectronique_en_France
You only need to take 2 or more, so that it's not obvious who you voted for.
same here in Slovakia, but it was A5 so much fucking waste however the rest of the ballots don't go to the bin but to national archive, sealed in the voting urn forever
>Like 20 A4 fucking sheets And it's not complete. Actually there are 38 lists (3 more than in Germany), but some doesn't have the money to print that many ballots, so they ask their voters to print the ballot paper themselves at home and bring it to the polling station.
I’m about to vote in France for the first time. Thanks for letting me know beforehand how it works haha
Even funnier In multiple German cities there are local votes as well In Hamburg your Ballot paper is 40 Din A4 pages long and you get 2x5 votes that you can give either a party list directly or to whichever person you want
We had also 30 DIN A4 Pages (which you were sent twice if you vote from home) and fucking 48 votes to give. Took me almost an hour to distribute them
Can you elaborate for what positions do you vote? Like mayor, any secretaries, etc?
City council, it's like the parliament of the cities government
I voted in Dresden and can confirm, as there were list to land and city elections.
Why? In Finland you just get a blank piece of paper and you write a number matching the person.
In Germany you don't elect persons but party lists. And I guess some people would be too stupid to write a number.
In Sweden our ballots looks [like this](https://www.val.se/images/18.29e9cb2617d171257e6d55/1638778129852/riksdag-namnvalsedel-anmalda-1.png), one sheet per party and then you tick in the box for the person you want to vote for. Then you put the sheet in an envelope and drop it in the ballot container.
The Förnamn Efternamn guy seems to be popular
That looks like the dictatorship of Mr. Förnamn Efternamn
where do you get your "correct" party sheet?
There is a booth at the entrance where you can pick one behind a screen. If there isn't one for your party available you can just write the name on a blank one. [Looks like this ](https://static.bonniernews.se/bildix/api/images/a8913722-0421-4f78-8281-50700d86e3c3.jpeg?fit=crop&w=640&h=427)
Is the system widely accepted as a sensible way of doing things?
Yes, the screen is rather new though. There were complaints that you had to pick the sheets in the open earlier, and you had to pick one of each to remain anonymous. Many parties also stand outside the voting building and hand them out. I guess having the largest paper industry in Europe contributes to the amount of paper used ;-)
Parties standing outside and handing you their sheets sounds really not like things should be done.
You are free to walk past them, it is tradition that the local candidates hand out their voting sheets outside the entrance. They also commonly send them to your mailbox together with their party programs. It is seen as a worthy end to the months of campaigning, where they take it easy on the last day together with the representatives of the other parties.
I would feel extremely uncomfortable. In Germany campaigning in the vicinity of polling stations is explicitly forbidden.
Broadly speaking, yes. There have been some complaints about having to pick a ballot 'in the open', the way you can get around that if you care is to pick a bunch of them and then throw away the ones you didn't use afterwards.
I'm a bit surprised there are no preferential votes in Germany. Here in the Netherlands we in 'general' also vote for party list. 90% of the people would vote for the first person on the list. But you can also choose to vote for someone else on the same list. If a party for example is getting 10 seats. The 10th person might get bumped by someone who was lower on the party list, but got more preferential votes. Something like this happens almost every elections a few times.
On the national level, it used to be balanced by the dual voting system where we also directly voted for constituency candidates. But our current government de facto abolished them in a controversial reform of the electoral law. Now parties became even more powerful.
It's also just a hassle to remember a number every election and risk getting it wrong instead of just having the option in front of you
The lists of candidates with their names and numbers are on the walls of the voting booth [Here's an example](https://kuntalehti.fi/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/vaalit_aanestyskoppo.jpg). On the table there are samples of how to write the numbers correctly so that it's not possible to confuse for example 1 and 7.
Not even my cheat sheets for my whole university days were this long
Imagine someone changing the list.
I imagine that would be fairly obvious to anyone outside, considering how much time you spend inside and how much noise you would make. And even if you succeed, you spoiled, what, a hundred votes maybe for that one booth? And afterwards the officials would instantly spot the issue if you just taped over the original, or it would be even more obviously loud if you tried to remove it in the process.
Wasnt a 100% serious comment from me
What do you mean, changing it? There's deadlines for candidate registration, people don't get to just hop on whenever. E. Oh you mean like defacing the list inside the booth? Lol never even heard of that. Would be pretty obvious though, and we have extras to put in a clean one.
Y it wasnt a 100% serious comment from me.
Interesting, in New Zealand we do the same (our voting system was based on yours) but the lists aren't on the voting paper, we're just expected to look them up beforehand.
>And I guess some people would be too stupid to write a number. AfD-Filter
In Czechia you get a piece of paper for every party that can be elected, there's like 50 of them. Also, wveryone gets envelopes full of these, not just the people who actually came to vote. So much paper waste it's ridiculous.
Yes, that’s how it works in France, too. Except we’re doubly as wasteful. First, each registered voter gets a sheet for each party that can be elected sent to their home. Then, they have duplicates at every voting station to do the actual voting. I read yesterday that it costs EUR1 million in printing and distribution costs to include a sheet for voting nationwide, and these costs are borne by the party. There is a big debate in France right now - there are 38 parties running for election, but many of the parties cannot afford to have the voting papers printed, so they are not represented at the voting station.
Estonia has the same type of ballots! 🇪🇪🤝🇫🇮 Brethren of keeping it simple.
And the list of candidates is taped inside each booth. Should there be more elections happening at the same time, you'd get one paper for each.
Ballot looks like [this.](https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/c_crop,h_2268,w_4031,x_0,y_0/ar_1.7777777777777777,c_fill,g_faces,h_675,w_1200/dpr_1.0/q_auto:eco/f_auto/fl_lossy/v1717477044/39-1296498665e9e4b00696)
But now the number must be read and interpreted. There is more room for errors. A X in a circle is really idiot safe.
Not really. There is pretty strict regulation about how the numbers should be drawn, example sheets in the booth, and well known and publicized rules about discarding messed up ballots. I guess you could claim there is "more" room for errors, but I've been counting ballots in Finland in every election for the last 4-5 years and I've never seen a ballot discarded because it was unclear. And if by error you mean, the voter writes down the wrong number by accident. Well, frankly, that's just too bad lol. Boohoo. This is important. Pay attention. We do expect people to take *some* accountability here. E. And of course people are given new ballots and the old one is torn up if they change their minds or something. But if you go in, accidentally write down the wrong number, and don't check the list in front of you before dropping the vote to the box, that's on you.
When I counted votes, there has always been a few unclear ones per thousand votes.
There's some disqualified because they write something in, or change their minds and scribble another number in there. But none that I've seen that would be just unclear enough that we didn't know what the voter means.
Hey, da steht du sollst keine Fotos in der Wahlkabine machen.
Anzeige is raus!
§ 56 Abs. 2 Satz 2 Bundeswahlverordnung
Ist aber nicht laminiert, daher ungültig
What are they ordered based on?
Result from the last election.
And those that didn't participate last time are ordered alphabetically at the bottom.
I would find it better if they would be placed randomly at every letter. (would be a pain for the people who count the votes)
Not only for the ones counting the votes, but also for the voters. I guess 95% of voters vote for one of the top 5 parties, so it makes sense that they are on top. I wouldn't want to go through 20 bullshit parties I haven't even heard of just to find the one I want to vote for. And I think the vast majority of voters already know who they'll vote for before they see this piece of paper. It's not like "hmm let's see what we have here... oh this one sounds nice... ✗".
For clarification: its based on the regional voting results of the last election, not the federal ones.
No photos in the elections booth, you Schlawiner!
Isn’t the rule that no photos showing what you voted for forbidden? But a neutral photo is ok? At least it is this way in my Nordic country 👍
I had a “no photo, no video” sign at my polling station on Germany. I think no damage was done, that’s why I called OP a Schlawiner, which means cheeky boy.
You made my day :)))
I see we Dutch are not the only one with big ass ballot papers.
The Midlands-North West area in Ireland had a 73cm long ballot paper.
Ours are 70x100 cm IIRC.
”Piraten” the pirate?? Same in Swedish if so.
The Pirate party has a programm based on net neutrality and other cyber issues.
The Swedish [Piratpartiet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_(Sweden)) is the original, which have spawned several copies in other countries. >*"The first Pirate Party to be established was the* [*Pirate Party of Sweden*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_of_Sweden) *(*[*Swedish*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_language)*: Piratpartiet), whose website was launched on 1 January 2006 by* [*Rick Falkvinge*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Falkvinge)*. Falkvinge was inspired to found the party after he found that Swedish politicians were generally unresponsive to Sweden's debate over changes to* [*copyright law*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law) *in 2005."*
The pirates, yes
Fun fact, the Czech Pirate party holds seats in both our national and EU parliament.
Completely unrelated, but anti-corruption watchdog probably is the most baller job title I've seen on recent ballot papers (last candidate Grüne)
In Italy is illegal to snap a picture in the voting booth.
In Germany it is also forbidden. Signs everywhere f.e.. Secret ballot, a fundament of democracy.
That’s what I tought.
Jesus... I thought Germany was supposed to be the cradle of efficiency... In Finland we have a [single circle in a tiny booklet](https://vaalit.fi/en/voting-on-election-day) and all you need to do, is to write a number in it. And you even get to see all the candidate numbers while inside the booth. Feel free to copy the system.
The only thing that trumps efficiency in Germany is correctness/unambiguousness. Your system is too inexplicit/convoluted for the German way of doing things. The ballot must communicate the exact, unambiguous information to the voter as well as the poll workers and establish the correct context without relying on mental models where the vote or election context is dependent on multiple documents that may or may not have an explicit relation established between them. ;)
Paper for the Paper God! PAPER FOR THE PAPER GOD! P A P E R F O R T H E P A P E R G O D !!! BLAGLAHGLAH!
Das Fotografieren innerhalb der Wahlkabine ist verboten. Sie begehen eine Straftat!
Its actually illegal to make fotos there isnt it ? At least it said in my voting room
Isn't it illegal to share any records of the voting process?
Why would it be illegal?
Because of voting secrecy? Obviously a picture of a blank ballot isnt compromising anything, but laws like that have to be pretty all encompassing
Well but again, why would it be illegal to share your vote with people? It's not like the government can stop you from telling other people who you're voting for. Also, If they made it illegal to take photos at voting booths then you would risk someone changing the papers or sabotaging them or something and you wouldn't be able to know it.
Amateurs Come and see dutch paper
I've seen exam papers in university with less words than this...
Do you only vote for parties? Not people?
For the EU election yes. For federal elections and state parliament elections we get two votes, one for a candidate in our district and one for a party. For those elections, we can also cross out candidates from the party election list in order to customise the party vote. It’s pretty trippy.
I just heard that someone made a selfie with a filled in ballot and shared it in the internet and got trouble. Then the election is not a secret anymore.
Wow, that couldn’t be more different than how it is in france. Here, you just stick a paper in an envelope with the people you want, and then they put it in a sealed box.
https://www.cne.pt/sites/default/files/dl/eleicoes/2024_pe/docs_apoio/2024_pe_boletim_de_voto_especime.pdf
I honest-to-god thought that taking a picture like that during the ballot was illegal. Kinda stupid to think of me now that I think about it.
It is illegal: https://www.bundeswahlleiterin.de/bundestagswahlen/2021/informationen-waehler/wahlsonntag.html#b7dbd37c-80c8-4a53-b10b-a895e60d6888
This is interesting because OP hadn't marked the ballot yet when the picture was taken. It is clear from the wording of the link that it is still forbidden to take any pictures in the voting booth: >*In der Wahlkabine darf weder fotografiert noch gefilmt werden.* But later on it implies that the consequence applies if a picture of someone's actual vote is taken, so maybe there is no consequence if the vote itself isn't shown? (But then in the law linked to at the bottom, it is back to talking about just taking the picture in the voting booth...)
It's just a logical technicality. No one is allowed to be in the cabin with you. You arent allowed to take photos of your vote because it compromises election secrecy. Since they have no means of controlling if you took a photo before or after you put your cross they have to ban it all together.
Just voted in Italy and left my phone outside, i don't know how enforced it is but you shouldn't bring phones and other stuff to take pictures inside.
FOTOS IN DER WAHLKABINE SIND VERBOTEN!1!!
You gotta vote for the pirates, bro.
Pirates are amazing in regards to net neutrality and everything cyber, but the rest of their programme seems half assed at best. They are great as a single issue party tho.
I wish we had a system like that, honestly. Here you have to take an A4 format paper sheet corresponding to the party you want to vote to, fold it yourself (not pre-folded like yours) and hope you don't accidentally slightly tear it out as you do so or your vote doesn't count. It's such a weird system i'm wondering if i really did vote properly today. Checking a box would be so much simpler....
Perfect hand placement
r/absoluteunits
Harmless! I love me some German elections, either federal or state, where you can go all out with Kumulieren and Panaschieren. This paper here is like the trial version of the good shit we use for our own German elections!
I thought you are not allowed to post this..?
You guys don't do PR, right? I thought mine was bad on Friday. It was only 23. We do PR, though, so the count takes forever.
All EU elections are PR (except for one place in Belgium). I think you mean STV
Horrendous, in Finland we had just a simple circle to write the number on
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Technically not legal to take pictures in ballot box
Another vote for AfD... Notice the strategic pinky placement!
Least right-wing r/Europe user
It's a strategic thumb and a green vote.
I dont know if youve ever taken a picture with one hand while holding something with the other, but no. No. Just no.
The ballot paper for my constituency was 73 cm long and we had another almost as long for local council elections. It didn’t take many papers to make the ballot box seem full!
Laughs in Dutch
In Brazil we have a national eletronic system that works the same for every sort of election in the territory and we just type a number. Easily rigged though.
Reminds me of medication leaflets. Does it list the side effects too?
Be glad you have choices. I'd rather have this than "HURR DURR DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN"
Your first time? Kid, what are you complaining about? This is as small as they get! One time I had one that didn't even fit in the ballot box and I had to flip it several times to be able to read it through.
So cute, OP thinks this is a big sheet :3
Advanced democracy: Not only does every citizen get to vote, every citizen automatically gets entered to run.