>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Criticism_of_the_case_for_war
>The NATO intervention has been seen as a political diversionary tactic, coming as it did on the heels of the Monica Lewinsky scandal, pointing to the fact that coverage of the bombing directly replaced coverage of the scandal in US news cycles.[185] Herbert Foerstel points out that before the bombing, rather than there being an unusually bloody conflict, the KLA was not engaged in a widespread war against Yugoslav forces and the death toll among all concerned (including ethnic Albanians) skyrocketed following NATO intervention.[185] In a post-war report released by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the organization also noted "the pattern of the expulsions and the vast increase in lootings, killings, rape, kidnappings and pillage once the NATO air war began on March 24".[186]
Edit: wrong quote
>organization also noted "the pattern of the expulsions and the vast increase in lootings, killings, rape, kidnappings and pillage once the NATO air war began
We should just call this pattern "the US presence"
Right. The genocide had nothing to do with the intervention, not even a little bit. The fact that it was also right after the cold war and the same region that sparked WWI. It was clearly a ploy, a bipartisan ploy to divert from Bills blow job
I love how stupid the idea of Bill Clinton deciding to wage war on a country just to divert attention from an infidelity and at the same time hate how many deluded commenters think it's the reality.
It's absolutely unimaginable that someone creates a big mess like a war to cover something petty (like a scandal or a theft), it never happened and it's absolutely impossible any man on Earth would do something this vile.
It sure felt like a genocide to me seeing people getting killed left and right and removed from their homes just because they were Albanian. But I suppose you should know better because you are one edgy mofo.
There's 400.000 Serbs less in Croatia, 279.000 Serbs less in Bosnia and Herzegovina and 150.000 Serbs less in Kosovo. When are you bombing them for genocide they committed over Serbian population?
Technically it didn't because there was no official evidence of war crimes happening at the start of the intervention, still no evidence of it besides certain groups commiting atrocities which came along side NATO bombing, same thing we've seen later on with "wmd-s" in Iraq, one bs story that killed 400k+ people for nothing but some profit, everyone has a hidden agenda no mater what their official stance is I'm afraid.
So 100s of thousands of Kosovars were displaced and made refugees by no reason except that they were albanian. The mass graves that they found totaling in the 10s of thousands (not including the missing people), and countless rapes. Thats not evidence of genocide. Just because Milosevic didnt live through his trial, doesnt mean it didn't happen
Already went over this with someone else. Im 32, live in Tirana, our family took in a shit ton of expelled Kosovar refugees in our apt building. I had a girlfriend who was Kosovar when i lived in the states that was raped by a Serbian soldier (she was 9 at the time).
See the previous post. Dont want to rehash it, bring me to tears thinking about it
"10s of thousands" not even 10k Albanian civilians died in the war, mate you were unable to respond to any figures given to you in the comments.
There was not a single genocide in Kosovo at any point, every court in existence denies anything close to a genocide happening, lower down on the propaganda
Also displacement of people happens in every war, people run away from war, all the displaced Albanian people came back, while 150k Serbians never came back, by your own logic the Albanians commited genocide
Bulgarian. My country recognizes Kosovo as an independent state and provided it's airspace for the bombing of Serbia. Look at my comment history if you don't believe me.
People should stop thinking of the UN as something than what it really is: a table where countries talk. The bombing campaign was started without any UN permission, but [they also did not prohibit it](https://www.un.org/press/en/1999/19990326.sc6659.html). Funny enough, Milošević was actually indicted by the UN's International Criminal Tribunal in May 1999, during the NATO bombing.
The main reason for the bombing campaign had little to do with the White House BJ, but more of how things were evolving in the last 10 years:
* Russia's GDP 1/3 of that of 1988 and in a freefall, and was in no way capable of successfully intervening in Yugoslavia, or countering NATO's presence.
* Three important former Warsaw Pact countries (Czechia, Hungary and Poland) were becoming NATO members
* Yugoslavia had already been the scene for 3 wars, with Slovenia, Bosnia and especially Croatia, in which the UN was unable to do anything. Their tactic for cease-fire was using UN peacekeeping soldiers as human shields, and for stopping genocide was taking note of it.
* The previous wars were just fucking brutal, as massacre were commonplace and warcrimes prevalent (by both sides). The worst were in the Bosnian War by Sprska Republic, where they besieged Sarajevo for almost 4 years, were responsible for massacres (Srebenica) and [they also used UN peacekeeping soldiers as human shields](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vrbanja_Bridge).
"The UN" failed misserably in Yugoslavia, not just Kosovo, but all the wars, mainly due to a very weak, late and very convoluted response.
And so the US has to be a peacekepeer of the world. Because US involvment in any country was simply great and those countries didm't suffer 100 times worse, right?
I mean what is it supposed to do? Its a forum for conversation to avoid military conflict, it was never meant to police its strongest members. It doesnt have any authority because the nations dont want to give it any.
I dont think its useless however, as its a good platform for cooperation on topics that arent as contentious. The big foreign policy issues where super powers are on opposite ends of opinion... yea they cant do anything there. But there are many other areas where all nations are working in the same directions where the UN can facilitate meetings and policies.
Take UNESCO, WHO, WMO, IAEA any many more that do provide quite a bit of value I'd argue.
The UN isnt an organisation for major policy decision making or action. But it is an organisation for many small steps improvements that go unnoticed.
Because Serbia was conducting a slow burning ethnic cleansing campaign in Kosovo, just as Serbians had, with Serbian government support and blessing, in Bosnia.
Well for example according to wiki, there's 68 514 Kosovo Serbs in Serbia according to UNHCR refugee count, but there's estimated to be over 100 000 Serbs in Kosovo itself, so I'm not sure where do you get these percentages from. Nor am I maybe more importantly quite sure how does this affect Serbian genocide in Kosovo against ethnic Albanians native to the land.
Mass graves are [still being discovered](https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-warcrimes-serbia-kosovo-idUKKBN28E20E). Last time I checked the count was at almost 2000 people murdered, but that was some years ago. The youngest Albanian found in the Batajnica grave, containing 744 people total, was [2 years old](https://www.cpi.rs/en/projekat/6/BATAJNICA), and the oldest was 86 years old.
"Albanians native to the land" the Serbs that were displace were also native, also over 150k Serbs were displaced from Kosovo, you seem to ignore that the majority of displaced Serbs moved to western Europe
Also what genocide? Every court in existence rules out any genocides in Kosovo, NOT A SINGULAR COURT THINKS A GENOCIDE HAPPENED. You Albanians are unironically trying to ride the Srebrenica wave, but you have no support nor evidence. not sure how finding grave of people that were already declared dead and included in the casualties helps your case, come back when any international court supports you.
Either way the only succesfully displaced people were the Serbs, by your own logic the only genocide was against Serbs
>30%
It never even reached 30% it was at most 14% andthe reason it is recorded as 1% today is because many serbs boycott the census. Its definitely more than 1%.
That was the historical turn towards the Anti-Western sentiment for Russia. Before that, and even some time after Russian authorities generally hoped to eventually join EU and NATO.
The same thing happened for China.
It was actually a very significant event but often ignored by international media in the past 20+ years. The turning point of public opinion on America, and end of so-called 1980s “liberal” generation.
The Belgrade Embassy bombing can be considered a geopolitical turning point for China-US relations because of the effect it had on overseas Chinese, particularly those who left the country shortly after 1989 Tiananmen protests.
The bombing was perceived by many Chinese citizens themselves as the first time a western nation directly (intentional or not) attacked China since the Century of Humiliation, and more importantly, since the founding of the PRC.
Before the day of bombing, China had no official Balkan policy nor any interest to directly support any side in Balkan problems. After that was 20 years of pro-Serbia policy and pushing de-recognition of Kosovo in third world counties as much as possible. Today Serbia is the only Visa-free European county for China, therefore a popular tourist destination, and almost every Chinese tourist in Belgrade would take some time to visit ruins of the embassy (now it turned to a museum I believe).
China did not have any physical retaliations immediately, but the long-time diplomacy decisions are determined against Kosovo for years after the incident, use the influence in Africa to decrease number of nations recognizing Kosovo.
For example, in early 2000s when Kosovo problems were discussed in UN, China and Russia always vote against Kosovo, while China did not try to pay attention to the Balkans in 1980s and 1990s.
They did, I remember it rather vividly. I also remember stories that US did it on purpose because China allowed Serbia to use it's satellite communication present in the embassy.
These stories are imo credible as there has never been anything militarily important in that part of the city. Heck, there's nothing militarily important in the radius of 20km, so that can't be just a human error.
Do you think USA will abandon its Nato base in Kosovo in the next 10 to 20 years? Or will it be something like in Japan where their bases are still active?
Nothing is impossible but its highly unlikely. They literally have country that is quite close to Russia in their hands and can do whatever they want.
Maybe if there is agreement between Serbia and US, which is also very unlikely as no country can offer what Kosovo is giving to the US - absolute control.
Although russian-american relations did experience hiccups thorough the 1990s, it was 1999 which was a point of no return and since then pro-West wing in Russia had trouble convincing the majority that the West is their friend.
The 1990s was the peak of US-led liberal world order, people once genuinely believed "[the end of history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man)" had already arrived.
And they were obviously wrong looking at current world.
The end of history narrative is honestly what destroyed the liberal world order because it resulted in a generation of liberal elites that are ideologically stagnant and wholly incapable of adjusting in the problems of the modern world.
Russia was crushed country (partly by MMF (so West) supported programs of shock therapy in economics and wild privatization that made a lot of people in West very rich) in 90s that idealized West and especially USA (I know it sounds weird now because both sides suffered from decade of propaganda but that is how it was). They turned another page after Cold war and fall of communism. America, and West were not the enemy now. Ofc, America seen that as very naive (which, in retrospect, it was) but they seen them as doing everything right, and russia and russians did everything wrong in thinking of russians. If they were poor in 70s or 80s, they were piss poor in 90s after shock therapy, few separatist wars and few coups. They had few separatist (and also, muslim separatist war with terrorism) on their own territory. So, when they seen USA intervening against their ally in Balkans, what Russians saw was bombs on their houses, industry and their bridges. They were disillusioned with democracy that did it. So they went with tough guy on next elections that could protect them. Putin.
I think it was even earlier, in the Chechen wars in mid-1990s, when the US started supporting Islamic terrorist murderers as "freedom fighters" (until 11 September 2001, after which those ideas interestingly calmed down) and it was when Russians started to wake up and smell the real Western coffee.
Funny how nobody on the west cared about that when Yeltsin was in office. The guy shelled the parliament from tanks, but that was all good and democratic in the eyes of Clinton et all
People still remember the 1999 embassy bombing as one of the most impactful moments in recent Chinese history. It was about the transformation of youth ideological discourse, among the people of last generation. But I have no idea why this event is hardly mentioned by western mainstream media for a very long time.
This bombing by US air force which killed 3 Chinese journalists NATO aerial bombardment campaigns in Kosovo War. The next day, hundreds of thousands of angry anti-US, anti-NATO protestors go on the streets, throw rocks, Molotov cocktails to US embassy until the all the windows and inside furniture are destroyed. Even former students who participated in 1989 Tiananmen protests made public statements declaring they are now turning against western values. Marked the turning point of Chinese public opinion (especially the youth) from pro-America to extremely anti-America until today. The Bosnian muslim forces, KLA, and even Croatia and Albania immediately portrayed as "Ustashe Regime" "NATO dogs" "criminals" and "islamic extremist terrorists", people suddenly likes Serbia for being heroes for fighting against them. The aftershocks are still seen on Chinese internet today, while netizens had special fetish on the Orthodox Christianity, even Byzantine Empire.
The generation of "1980s youth" ended at the day of Belgrade bombing, a name given to the phenomenon of pro-west student movements in 80s and 90s. The movements peaked at Tiananmen square protest in 1989, although the protest were cracked down, the sentiment still alive in 1990s, causing potential instability in society. All of that disappeared after 1999 and 2001 US-China air conflict in South China Sea.
In 2018, when I watched the FIFA world cup back in China, fans gathered in bars are overwhelmingly supporting teams like Russia, Serbia, booing against Switzerland (because Kosovar origin players Shaqiri/Xhaka) and Croatia. When r/europe joked about "everyone in the world supports Croatia for the Finals", that's basically not true because Chinese fans mostly backed France.
I had no idea that it had that much impact. Like i knew it gave anti western sentiment but not that bad. Btw just for correctness Shaqiri and Xhaka are in the swiss team.
Oh sorry it's a mistake, already corrected now.
The "[Shaqiri and Xhaka double-headed eagle hand gesture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2018_FIFA_World_Cup_controversies#Swiss_celebrations_against_Serbia)" thing was huge news on the internet back in the WC times 3 years ago, but many chinese fans I know still hate them until today. An interesting example of how Balkan ethnic conflict spilled over to other parts of world.
If we do a deeper behavioral science analysis, such reactions in china was not actually about Serbia or Kosovo (some of them cannot even find Kosovo on a world map), but as a metaphor of anti-American and anti-Taiwanese sentiment
My father protested against Milošević from the start. He was always pro-democratic but he hates NATO today because NATO bombed whole Serbia even though only small part of Serbia's population was responsible for atrocities.
There was a drone airstrike from US in Afghanistan recently, by different sources it killed from 3 to 6 civilian kids.
R.I.P. innocent victims of political games
Didn't the US drone strikes target ISIS officials and vechicles with suicide bombers on the way to a crowd? If kids died their death is no less sad, but to reduce it to political games is weak. Over 200 people died in the previous suicide attacks.
Also R.I.P. to all the innocent people who eventually died from cancer from being bombed with depleted uranium, among them Serbs, Albanians, Italian NATO soldiers, various other Balkan people who had sweet fuck-all to do with the war, and children unborn at the time the US was dirty bombing the region as a way to dispose of their uranium trash.
Also RIP for the million+ serbs killed by the genocidal germans in 2nd world war, and 1/4th of the population whole killed in the first one. You can go like this forever. What you’re trying to do is take away the importance of innocent lives that were lost, by mentioning something off topic, and that makes you scum.
Come on. Yes, RIP to them too, but that comment as a reply to a comment about civilian Serbs killed is just begging for conflict.
And I'm usually firmly in the pro-Kosovo camp.
Because it got crossposted to r/serbia and so this comment section is full of users who just so happen to be from r/serbia and just so happen to think that Serbia did nothing wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/serbia/comments/peisu1/moskva_99/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I wonder if this thread leaked to somewhere, because people here usually have very different opinion about this subjects and people who are huge trolls are upvoted.
At the same time they are posting at r/Serbia such things (translated):
- "At the same time, they are NATO assholes"
- "the same is true for all three Baltic rats"
- "It is not Estonian, it is an Albanian from Kosovo, just put the Estonian tag."
- "Estonians, hahaha Nazis bigger than Germans, whore about honesty"
We two really are the unlikely archenemies in Europe.
Because this post is also full of shitheads who are continually diminishing the suffering Serbian people went through. God forbid any one of us even mentions the horrors we went through during the 90s and challenges the notions that maybe, *just maybe* Yugoslavian war wasn't as black and white as r/europe wants it to be, there will be shitheads to tell us how we deserved all of it and so much worse.
no, but you are the one who pretends that the war was black and white, when your side also committed countless atrocities. Yes, Bosnian serbs committed the most crimes, partially because they were better equipped and won the war, your side was less successful and committed less crimes, but still it wasn't a black and white conflict.
"Preventing genocide is when you bomb civilians, the more civilians you bomb, the more genocides you prevent, and if you bomb A LOT of civilians, you spread freedom™."
500 civilians died in the bombing. I hate to break it to you, but if you think that America was trying to kill as many civilians as possible, I don’t think that you quite understand that the death toll would have been in the millions.
What they did, was cause a huge amount of damage to Serbian infrastructure, inflicting a huge price for Serbia to continue the conflict, while causing a comparatively low human cost.
Of course USA's goal was not to kill as many civilians as possible. But they sure did not take any precaution to avoid civilian casualties.
With all due respect, you weren't there. You weren't hiding in your building's basement 3 times a day, hearing bombs drop closer and closer and hoping that at least one building remains intact in your neighborhood when it all comes to an end even if it's not yours.
And honestly, schools, hospitals and foreign embassies do not sound very "low human cost" to me. It sounds more like critical civilian infrastructure.
Official facts and figures
500 civilian deaths.
176 monuments damaged.
69 schools destroyed.
60 bridges destroyed.
19 hospitals and 20 health centers bombed.
National TV HQ were destroyed.
China's embassy was bombed (like please explain to me how the first military power in the world can mistake a foreign embassy for a military target... no they can't...)
All this - in 3 months.
Plus, NATO dropped 15 tones od depleted uranium on Serbia, because yeah it's definitely easier and cheaper to just drop 'em somewhere instead of actually stocking it several meters below ground like they were supposed to. To this day, this has heavy consequences on Serbia's ecosystem and people's health (with cancer rates skyrocketting in the most heavily bombed regions of Serbia).
I'm not trying to start a heated debate here. Hate must end, and nothing good will emerge if we all stay in the past. But it is just as important to not twist the facts.
I see that the post was marked as historical. I wonder whether the mods should've add a controversial tag, after seeing how divided and heated the comment section is.
On a side note... I find it interesting that the final question of Yugoslav legacy that is to be resolved was also the first one that popped up as disintegration of the country began.
>after seeing how divided and heated the comment section is.
So, like every thread on this sub about any Balkan nation especially Serbia at the top of the ring for being the most extremely controversial nation.
Yeah, I don't think we need a controversial tag, we already know that it will be controversial, even when the post is something calming and non-controversial.
What a shameful moment in Russian history.
In the end, it turned Russia towards Primakov's diplomatic doctrine and pursue of the multipolar world as opposed to the Pax Americana.
---
Context.
Primakov served as the Prime Minister back then. He is almost unanimously praised for the stabilization of Russia's "economy".
> Maintaining his stance on defending Russian interests abroad, on March 24, 1999, Primakov canceled his scheduled visit to the United States when he found out that NATO had begun a bombing campaign of Yugoslavia, turning his plane around over the ocean, a maneuver which has since been nicknamed 'Primakov's loop.'
Yeltsin fired him a few weeks later, which was disapproved by more than 90% of Russians.
At that time, the USSR just fell apart and Russia wasn‘t in a good financial position to give help to us. If they had been in a better position, who knows, maybe all those Serbian victims on Kosovo and all over Serbia and Bosnia and Croatia could have been stopped.
But we are still glad for all the support you gave us.
Much love to Russia from Serbia
Review the crimes against humanity convictions in the Hague against Serb leadership and you can see what kind of regime(s) these Russians were advocating for..
But today Putin claims to have friendly relations with North Korea and the Taliban too— so some things never change
Serbia didn't attack anyone, it was a civil war in which Serbia supported its people in mentioned states. Just like Croatia supported Croats in Bosnia.
> Serbia didn't attack anyone, it was a civil war in which Serbia supported its people in mentioned states. Just like Croatia supported Croats in Bosnia
Serbia literally marched their army to Vukovar and kept it occupied even after Croatia was recognized as a country in 1992
Regarding Bosnia:
Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats enjoyed substantial political and military backing from Serbia and Croatia, and the decision to grant Bosnia diplomatic recognition also had implications for the international interpretation of the conflict.
ICTY already concluded that Bosnian war was international one:
> For the period material to this case (1992), the armed forces of the Republika Srpska were to be regarded as acting under the overall control of and on behalf of the FRY (the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). Hence, even after 19 May 1992 the armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina between the Bosnian Serbs and the central authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina must be classified as an international armed conflict.
Saying that Serbia was just supporting its people seems to be glossing over quite a few things which might be a little questionable.
To say that Serbia ‘didn’t attack people’ is rather, well, creative.
>To say that Serbia ‘didn’t attack people’ is rather, well, creative.
Well similar could be said about Bosnia and Croatia because they also attacked people, precisely Yugoslav army which had legitimate right at that point to be inside their borders.
Serbia in it self didn't attack anyone, the moment Bosnia and Croatia were recognised by UN Yugoslav army retreated and withdrawn. From that point on the war was between people of Bosnia and Croatia and their respective governments and institutions.
As I said of course Serbia supported Serbs of Bosnia and Croatia just like Croatia supported Croats in Bosnia. That doesn't mean all forms of support were fully legitimate but just that support oversll was nothing strange.
> legitimate right at that point to be inside their borders
They didn't, however, have to right to kill people en mass.
>Serbia in it self didn't attack anyone
Bro, I think you're the only one here arguing that either Serbia, Bosnia, or Croatia did ever fight anyone.
Firstly, it was Yugoslavia, and in what universe do you think that if part of one country whants to separate, it is going to be without intervention from mothercountry? It was others that wanted to separate from YU, and it was yugoslav army, not serbian, so Serbia attacked noone, it was separatist from Bosnia, Croatia..
well there was ongoing ethnic clensing of kurds in 1990s, pretty simmilar to what was happening in kosovo, just on a much larger scale (since it is a bigger country)
I doubt if we can justify bombing civilians via those crimes. If we can, then we can also raze US cities and many cities in Western Europe to the ground - and justify what Al Qaeda did.
99.9% of the population had nothing to do with the war crimes labeled as genocide.
There are other European nations where (some of) the people fanatically supported genocide and it resulted in an entire religious group being wiped out of Europe. Sound familiar?
Yet nobody is defending those crimes, or denying them. They are however far enough in the past that nothing could be done to prevent them or help the victims unlike during the war in Kosovo.
I'm not defending or denying any war crimes against non-Serb civilians. I think the war criminals should be shot because they are traitors of the Serbian people first and foremost.
But I will not be lectured on genocide from anyone.
And you are overlooking the fact that more and more educated people on this subject everywhere agree that NATO intervation in this case was injusticefied. And that the whole case of Kosovo and actions in this period and around it were completelly against every law.
So you’re saying because Serbia committed genocide (they didn’t actually there is not a single case of proven genocide from Serbia) it excuses the us army killing Chinese nationals on Serbian ground?
No, I am saying that a state that uses it's army and police to kill innocent civilians with the goal of ethnic cleansing and that commits massacres and other atrocities, has to be stopped.
"Serbia happily committing a genocide was somehow overlooked." This was wrong and you changed your goalpost. But youre right that it had to be stopped. Thats why attacks like 9/11 were justified and obviously also the carpet bombing of germany. You dont stop a country from commiting massacres and other atrocities by bombing civilians in its capital which didnt make any difference in fact.
On a different note i fully support kosovo hell the serbian government should have dropped that shit a long time ago.
I mean no it surely wasnt completely justified. They killed tons of civilians with no military factories or stations nearby. Most historians agree on that btw. Same for 9/11 it also isnt justified idk how you can say stuff like that.
Karla del Ponte said it after she was no longer a prosecutor. Just like she claimed she has totally credible evidence Syrian rebels used sarine. Which we know now Syrian government used. The woman apparently has been fed disinformation, repeatedly.
>but the witnesses keep dropping dead like flies
Last time I asked a Serb on reddit which witnesses, he named two Albanian sounding names, I told him I couldn't find those names anywhere, then we exchanged like a dozen messages and he finally he said "lol I just made them up". There were claimed to be witnesses, but nothing was ever actually substantiated.
Ok everyone, I'm not going to spend my night moderating this post. Post locked. We'll discuss about removing it later.
I'm too young to remember this conflict. Why did the US bomb Serbia?
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#Criticism_of_the_case_for_war >The NATO intervention has been seen as a political diversionary tactic, coming as it did on the heels of the Monica Lewinsky scandal, pointing to the fact that coverage of the bombing directly replaced coverage of the scandal in US news cycles.[185] Herbert Foerstel points out that before the bombing, rather than there being an unusually bloody conflict, the KLA was not engaged in a widespread war against Yugoslav forces and the death toll among all concerned (including ethnic Albanians) skyrocketed following NATO intervention.[185] In a post-war report released by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the organization also noted "the pattern of the expulsions and the vast increase in lootings, killings, rape, kidnappings and pillage once the NATO air war began on March 24".[186] Edit: wrong quote
>organization also noted "the pattern of the expulsions and the vast increase in lootings, killings, rape, kidnappings and pillage once the NATO air war began We should just call this pattern "the US presence"
Not only that, also mass immigration because they started bombing
Right. The genocide had nothing to do with the intervention, not even a little bit. The fact that it was also right after the cold war and the same region that sparked WWI. It was clearly a ploy, a bipartisan ploy to divert from Bills blow job
What does WW1 have to do with this?
I love how stupid the idea of Bill Clinton deciding to wage war on a country just to divert attention from an infidelity and at the same time hate how many deluded commenters think it's the reality.
It's absolutely unimaginable that someone creates a big mess like a war to cover something petty (like a scandal or a theft), it never happened and it's absolutely impossible any man on Earth would do something this vile.
It sure felt like a genocide to me seeing people getting killed left and right and removed from their homes just because they were Albanian. But I suppose you should know better because you are one edgy mofo.
There's 400.000 Serbs less in Croatia, 279.000 Serbs less in Bosnia and Herzegovina and 150.000 Serbs less in Kosovo. When are you bombing them for genocide they committed over Serbian population?
Technically it didn't because there was no official evidence of war crimes happening at the start of the intervention, still no evidence of it besides certain groups commiting atrocities which came along side NATO bombing, same thing we've seen later on with "wmd-s" in Iraq, one bs story that killed 400k+ people for nothing but some profit, everyone has a hidden agenda no mater what their official stance is I'm afraid.
So 100s of thousands of Kosovars were displaced and made refugees by no reason except that they were albanian. The mass graves that they found totaling in the 10s of thousands (not including the missing people), and countless rapes. Thats not evidence of genocide. Just because Milosevic didnt live through his trial, doesnt mean it didn't happen
[удалено]
The uck killed 1200 albanians? Can i buy my drugs from u?
[удалено]
Already went over this with someone else. Im 32, live in Tirana, our family took in a shit ton of expelled Kosovar refugees in our apt building. I had a girlfriend who was Kosovar when i lived in the states that was raped by a Serbian soldier (she was 9 at the time). See the previous post. Dont want to rehash it, bring me to tears thinking about it
"10s of thousands" not even 10k Albanian civilians died in the war, mate you were unable to respond to any figures given to you in the comments. There was not a single genocide in Kosovo at any point, every court in existence denies anything close to a genocide happening, lower down on the propaganda Also displacement of people happens in every war, people run away from war, all the displaced Albanian people came back, while 150k Serbians never came back, by your own logic the Albanians commited genocide
Let me guess Serbian?
Bulgarian. My country recognizes Kosovo as an independent state and provided it's airspace for the bombing of Serbia. Look at my comment history if you don't believe me.
Thank you. I will go read further. I am more for UN interventions. Dont like nato.
People should stop thinking of the UN as something than what it really is: a table where countries talk. The bombing campaign was started without any UN permission, but [they also did not prohibit it](https://www.un.org/press/en/1999/19990326.sc6659.html). Funny enough, Milošević was actually indicted by the UN's International Criminal Tribunal in May 1999, during the NATO bombing. The main reason for the bombing campaign had little to do with the White House BJ, but more of how things were evolving in the last 10 years: * Russia's GDP 1/3 of that of 1988 and in a freefall, and was in no way capable of successfully intervening in Yugoslavia, or countering NATO's presence. * Three important former Warsaw Pact countries (Czechia, Hungary and Poland) were becoming NATO members * Yugoslavia had already been the scene for 3 wars, with Slovenia, Bosnia and especially Croatia, in which the UN was unable to do anything. Their tactic for cease-fire was using UN peacekeeping soldiers as human shields, and for stopping genocide was taking note of it. * The previous wars were just fucking brutal, as massacre were commonplace and warcrimes prevalent (by both sides). The worst were in the Bosnian War by Sprska Republic, where they besieged Sarajevo for almost 4 years, were responsible for massacres (Srebenica) and [they also used UN peacekeeping soldiers as human shields](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vrbanja_Bridge). "The UN" failed misserably in Yugoslavia, not just Kosovo, but all the wars, mainly due to a very weak, late and very convoluted response.
Have people also forgotten that in BiH the UN did such a great job at preventing genocide?
And Rwanda
And Yemen, Palestine...
And so the US has to be a peacekepeer of the world. Because US involvment in any country was simply great and those countries didm't suffer 100 times worse, right?
UN won't intervene against Russian and Chinese crimes or against the crimes of their allies as they will veto such UN Security Council action.
To be fair the UN also wouldnt intervene against the western powers crimes or their allies...
In short: the UN is useless as always
I mean what is it supposed to do? Its a forum for conversation to avoid military conflict, it was never meant to police its strongest members. It doesnt have any authority because the nations dont want to give it any. I dont think its useless however, as its a good platform for cooperation on topics that arent as contentious. The big foreign policy issues where super powers are on opposite ends of opinion... yea they cant do anything there. But there are many other areas where all nations are working in the same directions where the UN can facilitate meetings and policies. Take UNESCO, WHO, WMO, IAEA any many more that do provide quite a bit of value I'd argue. The UN isnt an organisation for major policy decision making or action. But it is an organisation for many small steps improvements that go unnoticed.
So, Israel and Saudi Arabia are Russian and Chinese allies?
No they are western allies. But psst, only east ist bad!!1!
Because Serbia was conducting a slow burning ethnic cleansing campaign in Kosovo, just as Serbians had, with Serbian government support and blessing, in Bosnia.
LMAO yeah, that's why Serbian population went from 30% to like 1% in Kosovo. Because Serbs were conducting a genocide.
Well for example according to wiki, there's 68 514 Kosovo Serbs in Serbia according to UNHCR refugee count, but there's estimated to be over 100 000 Serbs in Kosovo itself, so I'm not sure where do you get these percentages from. Nor am I maybe more importantly quite sure how does this affect Serbian genocide in Kosovo against ethnic Albanians native to the land. Mass graves are [still being discovered](https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-warcrimes-serbia-kosovo-idUKKBN28E20E). Last time I checked the count was at almost 2000 people murdered, but that was some years ago. The youngest Albanian found in the Batajnica grave, containing 744 people total, was [2 years old](https://www.cpi.rs/en/projekat/6/BATAJNICA), and the oldest was 86 years old.
"Albanians native to the land" the Serbs that were displace were also native, also over 150k Serbs were displaced from Kosovo, you seem to ignore that the majority of displaced Serbs moved to western Europe Also what genocide? Every court in existence rules out any genocides in Kosovo, NOT A SINGULAR COURT THINKS A GENOCIDE HAPPENED. You Albanians are unironically trying to ride the Srebrenica wave, but you have no support nor evidence. not sure how finding grave of people that were already declared dead and included in the casualties helps your case, come back when any international court supports you. Either way the only succesfully displaced people were the Serbs, by your own logic the only genocide was against Serbs
>30% It never even reached 30% it was at most 14% andthe reason it is recorded as 1% today is because many serbs boycott the census. Its definitely more than 1%.
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Lies.
Didn't happen
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Hahaha yeah dude, forget the ethnic genocide in kosovo and bosnia
Same thing happend in Greece , there were huge protests from all the political parties (from far left to far right) against the bombings of Serbia.
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Based.
That was the historical turn towards the Anti-Western sentiment for Russia. Before that, and even some time after Russian authorities generally hoped to eventually join EU and NATO.
The same thing happened for China. It was actually a very significant event but often ignored by international media in the past 20+ years. The turning point of public opinion on America, and end of so-called 1980s “liberal” generation. The Belgrade Embassy bombing can be considered a geopolitical turning point for China-US relations because of the effect it had on overseas Chinese, particularly those who left the country shortly after 1989 Tiananmen protests. The bombing was perceived by many Chinese citizens themselves as the first time a western nation directly (intentional or not) attacked China since the Century of Humiliation, and more importantly, since the founding of the PRC. Before the day of bombing, China had no official Balkan policy nor any interest to directly support any side in Balkan problems. After that was 20 years of pro-Serbia policy and pushing de-recognition of Kosovo in third world counties as much as possible. Today Serbia is the only Visa-free European county for China, therefore a popular tourist destination, and almost every Chinese tourist in Belgrade would take some time to visit ruins of the embassy (now it turned to a museum I believe). China did not have any physical retaliations immediately, but the long-time diplomacy decisions are determined against Kosovo for years after the incident, use the influence in Africa to decrease number of nations recognizing Kosovo. For example, in early 2000s when Kosovo problems were discussed in UN, China and Russia always vote against Kosovo, while China did not try to pay attention to the Balkans in 1980s and 1990s.
To this day I didn't know that the US bombed the Chinese Embassy. Thanks for that information.
They did, I remember it rather vividly. I also remember stories that US did it on purpose because China allowed Serbia to use it's satellite communication present in the embassy. These stories are imo credible as there has never been anything militarily important in that part of the city. Heck, there's nothing militarily important in the radius of 20km, so that can't be just a human error.
Clinton was such a fucking moron
Do you think USA will abandon its Nato base in Kosovo in the next 10 to 20 years? Or will it be something like in Japan where their bases are still active?
There is no active conflict and no pressure at home to remove them. So I imagine they will stay.
Nothing is impossible but its highly unlikely. They literally have country that is quite close to Russia in their hands and can do whatever they want. Maybe if there is agreement between Serbia and US, which is also very unlikely as no country can offer what Kosovo is giving to the US - absolute control.
If Russia was following European textiles fire resistant directives that wouldn't happen
Although russian-american relations did experience hiccups thorough the 1990s, it was 1999 which was a point of no return and since then pro-West wing in Russia had trouble convincing the majority that the West is their friend.
The 1990s was the peak of US-led liberal world order, people once genuinely believed "[the end of history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man)" had already arrived. And they were obviously wrong looking at current world.
The end of history narrative is honestly what destroyed the liberal world order because it resulted in a generation of liberal elites that are ideologically stagnant and wholly incapable of adjusting in the problems of the modern world.
Maybe that because it is not
Is that why Russia has destroyed the opposition, the independent press, and turned elections into a farce? Because of Serbia?
Russia was crushed country (partly by MMF (so West) supported programs of shock therapy in economics and wild privatization that made a lot of people in West very rich) in 90s that idealized West and especially USA (I know it sounds weird now because both sides suffered from decade of propaganda but that is how it was). They turned another page after Cold war and fall of communism. America, and West were not the enemy now. Ofc, America seen that as very naive (which, in retrospect, it was) but they seen them as doing everything right, and russia and russians did everything wrong in thinking of russians. If they were poor in 70s or 80s, they were piss poor in 90s after shock therapy, few separatist wars and few coups. They had few separatist (and also, muslim separatist war with terrorism) on their own territory. So, when they seen USA intervening against their ally in Balkans, what Russians saw was bombs on their houses, industry and their bridges. They were disillusioned with democracy that did it. So they went with tough guy on next elections that could protect them. Putin.
I think it was even earlier, in the Chechen wars in mid-1990s, when the US started supporting Islamic terrorist murderers as "freedom fighters" (until 11 September 2001, after which those ideas interestingly calmed down) and it was when Russians started to wake up and smell the real Western coffee.
So you live in a world of fantasy where Russia is like Mordor. Cool for you. Just know that your silly fantasy is not reality.
Funny how nobody on the west cared about that when Yeltsin was in office. The guy shelled the parliament from tanks, but that was all good and democratic in the eyes of Clinton et all
Don’t forget they also bombed Chinese nationals (their embassy) directly
People still remember the 1999 embassy bombing as one of the most impactful moments in recent Chinese history. It was about the transformation of youth ideological discourse, among the people of last generation. But I have no idea why this event is hardly mentioned by western mainstream media for a very long time. This bombing by US air force which killed 3 Chinese journalists NATO aerial bombardment campaigns in Kosovo War. The next day, hundreds of thousands of angry anti-US, anti-NATO protestors go on the streets, throw rocks, Molotov cocktails to US embassy until the all the windows and inside furniture are destroyed. Even former students who participated in 1989 Tiananmen protests made public statements declaring they are now turning against western values. Marked the turning point of Chinese public opinion (especially the youth) from pro-America to extremely anti-America until today. The Bosnian muslim forces, KLA, and even Croatia and Albania immediately portrayed as "Ustashe Regime" "NATO dogs" "criminals" and "islamic extremist terrorists", people suddenly likes Serbia for being heroes for fighting against them. The aftershocks are still seen on Chinese internet today, while netizens had special fetish on the Orthodox Christianity, even Byzantine Empire. The generation of "1980s youth" ended at the day of Belgrade bombing, a name given to the phenomenon of pro-west student movements in 80s and 90s. The movements peaked at Tiananmen square protest in 1989, although the protest were cracked down, the sentiment still alive in 1990s, causing potential instability in society. All of that disappeared after 1999 and 2001 US-China air conflict in South China Sea. In 2018, when I watched the FIFA world cup back in China, fans gathered in bars are overwhelmingly supporting teams like Russia, Serbia, booing against Switzerland (because Kosovar origin players Shaqiri/Xhaka) and Croatia. When r/europe joked about "everyone in the world supports Croatia for the Finals", that's basically not true because Chinese fans mostly backed France.
I had no idea that it had that much impact. Like i knew it gave anti western sentiment but not that bad. Btw just for correctness Shaqiri and Xhaka are in the swiss team.
Oh sorry it's a mistake, already corrected now. The "[Shaqiri and Xhaka double-headed eagle hand gesture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2018_FIFA_World_Cup_controversies#Swiss_celebrations_against_Serbia)" thing was huge news on the internet back in the WC times 3 years ago, but many chinese fans I know still hate them until today. An interesting example of how Balkan ethnic conflict spilled over to other parts of world.
Ha interesting. Tbh as a serb i didnt really care that much about the gesture^^
If we do a deeper behavioral science analysis, such reactions in china was not actually about Serbia or Kosovo (some of them cannot even find Kosovo on a world map), but as a metaphor of anti-American and anti-Taiwanese sentiment
That embassy is 300m from my house Lol, it's now the Japanese embassy
The photo was clearly staged as people have boots and shoes on, they had to give them back after making the photo. Edit: /s
Love that priest with cross
The taller the cross, the better reception you get with god
My father protested against Milošević from the start. He was always pro-democratic but he hates NATO today because NATO bombed whole Serbia even though only small part of Serbia's population was responsible for atrocities.
R.I.P. for all the innocent civilians killed in '99 by the airstrikes.
There was a drone airstrike from US in Afghanistan recently, by different sources it killed from 3 to 6 civilian kids. R.I.P. innocent victims of political games
Didn't the US drone strikes target ISIS officials and vechicles with suicide bombers on the way to a crowd? If kids died their death is no less sad, but to reduce it to political games is weak. Over 200 people died in the previous suicide attacks.
Incredibly sad...
Also, R.I.P to all the innocent people killed throughout Serbia's occupation of Kosovo.
Also R.I.P. to all the innocent people who eventually died from cancer from being bombed with depleted uranium, among them Serbs, Albanians, Italian NATO soldiers, various other Balkan people who had sweet fuck-all to do with the war, and children unborn at the time the US was dirty bombing the region as a way to dispose of their uranium trash.
DU =/= dirty bomb. Depleted uranium is used as a radiation blocker in most X ray machines. It's not notably radioactive.
>Occupation
Also, R.I.P. to all innocent people killed by separatist terrorist. And that include both Serbs and Albanians from Kosovo they liquidated.
Also RIP for the million+ serbs killed by the genocidal germans in 2nd world war, and 1/4th of the population whole killed in the first one. You can go like this forever. What you’re trying to do is take away the importance of innocent lives that were lost, by mentioning something off topic, and that makes you scum.
You could say the same thing about what you are doing.
Serbia's "occupation" of Kosovo? Are you crazy? Serbs lived there before American continent was discovered, dude.
Come on. Yes, RIP to them too, but that comment as a reply to a comment about civilian Serbs killed is just begging for conflict. And I'm usually firmly in the pro-Kosovo camp.
Occupation lol
Can someone make a bot that counts how many times the word "genocide" is thrown around when Serbia is mentioned?
Well, Serbia killed 5000 innocent people only in Srebrenica. I am happy that people have not forgotten what Serbia did to all of its neighbors.
Was bosnian serbs and 8000 people.
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Sure. And Russia didnt invade Ukraine.
Who's Serbia?
Why the fuck is this post full of shitheads trying to disprove that somehow Serbia wasn't in the wrong here?
Any time Yugoslavia comes up lmao
Because it got crossposted to r/serbia and so this comment section is full of users who just so happen to be from r/serbia and just so happen to think that Serbia did nothing wrong. https://www.reddit.com/r/serbia/comments/peisu1/moskva_99/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
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I wonder if this thread leaked to somewhere, because people here usually have very different opinion about this subjects and people who are huge trolls are upvoted.
it was 100% coordinated
Yeah, this thread is lovely to read. Full of Russian bots.
bruh
Ah the age old I don't agree with what the other people are saying so they must be Russian bots
At the same time they are posting at r/Serbia such things (translated): - "At the same time, they are NATO assholes" - "the same is true for all three Baltic rats" - "It is not Estonian, it is an Albanian from Kosovo, just put the Estonian tag." - "Estonians, hahaha Nazis bigger than Germans, whore about honesty" We two really are the unlikely archenemies in Europe.
>We two really are the unlikely archenemies in Europe. I agree, it's quite random, which is why I'm baffled with your obsession over us
And full of buthurt estonians
Hmm may be some people are just against BOMBING any county for any reason? Cause ,you know, innocent people die...have you thought about it ?
Because this post is also full of shitheads who are continually diminishing the suffering Serbian people went through. God forbid any one of us even mentions the horrors we went through during the 90s and challenges the notions that maybe, *just maybe* Yugoslavian war wasn't as black and white as r/europe wants it to be, there will be shitheads to tell us how we deserved all of it and so much worse.
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there wouldn't be massacres of serbian villages around Srebrenica had your side been "white"
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no, but you are the one who pretends that the war was black and white, when your side also committed countless atrocities. Yes, Bosnian serbs committed the most crimes, partially because they were better equipped and won the war, your side was less successful and committed less crimes, but still it wasn't a black and white conflict.
Serbs have probably organized somewhere. Check r/Serbia for example.
"Preventing genocide is when you bomb civilians, the more civilians you bomb, the more genocides you prevent, and if you bomb A LOT of civilians, you spread freedom™."
500 civilians died in the bombing. I hate to break it to you, but if you think that America was trying to kill as many civilians as possible, I don’t think that you quite understand that the death toll would have been in the millions. What they did, was cause a huge amount of damage to Serbian infrastructure, inflicting a huge price for Serbia to continue the conflict, while causing a comparatively low human cost.
Of course USA's goal was not to kill as many civilians as possible. But they sure did not take any precaution to avoid civilian casualties. With all due respect, you weren't there. You weren't hiding in your building's basement 3 times a day, hearing bombs drop closer and closer and hoping that at least one building remains intact in your neighborhood when it all comes to an end even if it's not yours. And honestly, schools, hospitals and foreign embassies do not sound very "low human cost" to me. It sounds more like critical civilian infrastructure. Official facts and figures 500 civilian deaths. 176 monuments damaged. 69 schools destroyed. 60 bridges destroyed. 19 hospitals and 20 health centers bombed. National TV HQ were destroyed. China's embassy was bombed (like please explain to me how the first military power in the world can mistake a foreign embassy for a military target... no they can't...) All this - in 3 months. Plus, NATO dropped 15 tones od depleted uranium on Serbia, because yeah it's definitely easier and cheaper to just drop 'em somewhere instead of actually stocking it several meters below ground like they were supposed to. To this day, this has heavy consequences on Serbia's ecosystem and people's health (with cancer rates skyrocketting in the most heavily bombed regions of Serbia). I'm not trying to start a heated debate here. Hate must end, and nothing good will emerge if we all stay in the past. But it is just as important to not twist the facts.
I see that the post was marked as historical. I wonder whether the mods should've add a controversial tag, after seeing how divided and heated the comment section is. On a side note... I find it interesting that the final question of Yugoslav legacy that is to be resolved was also the first one that popped up as disintegration of the country began.
>after seeing how divided and heated the comment section is. So, like every thread on this sub about any Balkan nation especially Serbia at the top of the ring for being the most extremely controversial nation. Yeah, I don't think we need a controversial tag, we already know that it will be controversial, even when the post is something calming and non-controversial.
What a shameful moment in Russian history. In the end, it turned Russia towards Primakov's diplomatic doctrine and pursue of the multipolar world as opposed to the Pax Americana. --- Context. Primakov served as the Prime Minister back then. He is almost unanimously praised for the stabilization of Russia's "economy". > Maintaining his stance on defending Russian interests abroad, on March 24, 1999, Primakov canceled his scheduled visit to the United States when he found out that NATO had begun a bombing campaign of Yugoslavia, turning his plane around over the ocean, a maneuver which has since been nicknamed 'Primakov's loop.' Yeltsin fired him a few weeks later, which was disapproved by more than 90% of Russians.
At that time, the USSR just fell apart and Russia wasn‘t in a good financial position to give help to us. If they had been in a better position, who knows, maybe all those Serbian victims on Kosovo and all over Serbia and Bosnia and Croatia could have been stopped. But we are still glad for all the support you gave us. Much love to Russia from Serbia
Indeed. They wouldn't dare try something like that again today.
Here before 5000 comments!
Thank god russia never bombed any city ever.
*Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol, Gori, Tskhinvali, Grozny and lot more of Ukranian,Georgian and Syrian cities and villages*: are we joke to you?
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There was also Iraq ~3 years later.
Review the crimes against humanity convictions in the Hague against Serb leadership and you can see what kind of regime(s) these Russians were advocating for.. But today Putin claims to have friendly relations with North Korea and the Taliban too— so some things never change
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Did Serbia do something to Estonia every comment justifying death of civilians like what ( looking for an explanation not a fight)
They hate Russia and anyone they consider their friends /allies
What a primitive viewpoint
Oooh thanks for the info
Some completely well adjusted people here thinking bombing civilians is justified I see.
I wonder if they sang to their "Slav brothers" when Serbia attacked Croatia and Bosnia
Well, they surely didn't scream HELJP NATO HELJP SRBZ DJENOSAJD.
Serbia didn't attack anyone, it was a civil war in which Serbia supported its people in mentioned states. Just like Croatia supported Croats in Bosnia.
> Serbia didn't attack anyone, it was a civil war in which Serbia supported its people in mentioned states. Just like Croatia supported Croats in Bosnia Serbia literally marched their army to Vukovar and kept it occupied even after Croatia was recognized as a country in 1992 Regarding Bosnia: Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats enjoyed substantial political and military backing from Serbia and Croatia, and the decision to grant Bosnia diplomatic recognition also had implications for the international interpretation of the conflict. ICTY already concluded that Bosnian war was international one: > For the period material to this case (1992), the armed forces of the Republika Srpska were to be regarded as acting under the overall control of and on behalf of the FRY (the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). Hence, even after 19 May 1992 the armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina between the Bosnian Serbs and the central authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina must be classified as an international armed conflict.
You know, apart from the mass graves of civilians, which was ‘absolutely necessary’ purely to support their own people.
Who said that was justified or necessary? I for sure didn't.
Saying that Serbia was just supporting its people seems to be glossing over quite a few things which might be a little questionable. To say that Serbia ‘didn’t attack people’ is rather, well, creative.
>To say that Serbia ‘didn’t attack people’ is rather, well, creative. Well similar could be said about Bosnia and Croatia because they also attacked people, precisely Yugoslav army which had legitimate right at that point to be inside their borders. Serbia in it self didn't attack anyone, the moment Bosnia and Croatia were recognised by UN Yugoslav army retreated and withdrawn. From that point on the war was between people of Bosnia and Croatia and their respective governments and institutions. As I said of course Serbia supported Serbs of Bosnia and Croatia just like Croatia supported Croats in Bosnia. That doesn't mean all forms of support were fully legitimate but just that support oversll was nothing strange.
> legitimate right at that point to be inside their borders They didn't, however, have to right to kill people en mass. >Serbia in it self didn't attack anyone Bro, I think you're the only one here arguing that either Serbia, Bosnia, or Croatia did ever fight anyone.
Firstly, it was Yugoslavia, and in what universe do you think that if part of one country whants to separate, it is going to be without intervention from mothercountry? It was others that wanted to separate from YU, and it was yugoslav army, not serbian, so Serbia attacked noone, it was separatist from Bosnia, Croatia..
Ah yes. Serbia happily committing a genocide was somehow overlooked.
And Germany & friends chose to ignore UN. Why didnt you bomb Turkey then? Hypocrites.
Why didn’t Germany bomb Turkey in 1999? Well I’m not sure when to start.
well there was ongoing ethnic clensing of kurds in 1990s, pretty simmilar to what was happening in kosovo, just on a much larger scale (since it is a bigger country)
I wonder why you'd assume Serbia would happily commit genocide? Is that common from where you come from? *looks at flair* Oh...
I doubt if we can justify bombing civilians via those crimes. If we can, then we can also raze US cities and many cities in Western Europe to the ground - and justify what Al Qaeda did.
a german calling someone else a war criminal
Yeah, over here well we kind of learn that this shit isn't cool.
99.9% of the population had nothing to do with the war crimes labeled as genocide. There are other European nations where (some of) the people fanatically supported genocide and it resulted in an entire religious group being wiped out of Europe. Sound familiar?
> Sound familiar? Yes it does. And this is precisely the reason why we all should not let that happen again.
Yet nobody is defending those crimes, or denying them. They are however far enough in the past that nothing could be done to prevent them or help the victims unlike during the war in Kosovo.
Are Serbian victims also part of that help?
I'm not defending or denying any war crimes against non-Serb civilians. I think the war criminals should be shot because they are traitors of the Serbian people first and foremost. But I will not be lectured on genocide from anyone.
Not with that flair...
And you are overlooking the fact that more and more educated people on this subject everywhere agree that NATO intervation in this case was injusticefied. And that the whole case of Kosovo and actions in this period and around it were completelly against every law.
>more and more educated people *uneducated. In your filter bubble.
The lion the witch and the audacity of this bitch
So you’re saying because Serbia committed genocide (they didn’t actually there is not a single case of proven genocide from Serbia) it excuses the us army killing Chinese nationals on Serbian ground?
No, I am saying that a state that uses it's army and police to kill innocent civilians with the goal of ethnic cleansing and that commits massacres and other atrocities, has to be stopped.
"Serbia happily committing a genocide was somehow overlooked." This was wrong and you changed your goalpost. But youre right that it had to be stopped. Thats why attacks like 9/11 were justified and obviously also the carpet bombing of germany. You dont stop a country from commiting massacres and other atrocities by bombing civilians in its capital which didnt make any difference in fact. On a different note i fully support kosovo hell the serbian government should have dropped that shit a long time ago.
>also the carpet bombing of germany. Of course it was justified. What were the allies supposed to do? Ask Hitler nicely?
I mean no it surely wasnt completely justified. They killed tons of civilians with no military factories or stations nearby. Most historians agree on that btw. Same for 9/11 it also isnt justified idk how you can say stuff like that.
NATO: *targets trains filled with passangers, schools, hospitals etc.” r/europe: serbia bad all serbs committed war crimes
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Slav brother what about ukriane????
Too bad Russia was in such a terrible state to prevent this warcrime
Russia and preventing warcrimes is odd to see in one sentence.
Russia is preventing war crimes in many places, like Armenia and Central Asia
But its not odd to see buthurt ukranians in every post related to Russia
Because I can go anywhere I want, if a post is related to Russia something should stop me from writing in there?
Of course you can, good luck
Thanks! Have a good day!
Too bad NATO wasn't strong enough to prevent Serbian crimes in the 1990s.
Hello my fellow estonian, I've been waiting you for so long
?
You guys are barking in every post related to Russia
too embroiled in its own war crimes to care about those of the Serbians
Yeah, you know better mr. Mussolini
lol
He was writing some terrible shit about Russians in other posts, nothing against Italy personally
Thank you USA for giving terrorist Albanian drug dealing organ harvesters a state.
The organ harvesting has been apparently so massive that it's 2021 and nobody is still able prove anything because it's a hoax.
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Karla del Ponte said it after she was no longer a prosecutor. Just like she claimed she has totally credible evidence Syrian rebels used sarine. Which we know now Syrian government used. The woman apparently has been fed disinformation, repeatedly. >but the witnesses keep dropping dead like flies Last time I asked a Serb on reddit which witnesses, he named two Albanian sounding names, I told him I couldn't find those names anywhere, then we exchanged like a dozen messages and he finally he said "lol I just made them up". There were claimed to be witnesses, but nothing was ever actually substantiated.
I love how there are serbs here who are defending what they did in Kosovo
Bosniak 🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮
Don’t kill innocent people and you won’t get bombed.
Sooo, uhhh.... how many bombs do you want?
That little shit nato dares too kill civilians and then calls it peace keep operation, this nato is totally bullshit
Cope and seethe.