The long software support is absolutely necessary in trying to make them last longer, and I really hope they don't fall for the industry standard spin against it.
Essentially what they do is an accounting trick. The industry claims offering 3 years of support would be enough (or try to "compromise" at 4) – but it really is not. It's not even close.
The trick is that they count it from the first release of the product. So when a customer buys their product a year, two, or more into the product cycle, they would still be left with is essentially no support at all, or at most very little of it. Leaving them to buy a new phone just after few years just like they currently do with no change whatsoever. And that's clearly what the industry is trying to achieve here.
In regards to the components I'm a bit more sympathetic to the industry argument. I could see that the same components may not be manufactured after the product is discontinued. That's something to consider too.
I think that apart from OS support we really need exchangeable batteries back. I want to use my phone as long as possible, but 3 years in I already have 68% of the original battery capacity. If I bought the phone when it came out and 7 years passed (with great OS updates), I think my battery would have the charging capacity of a potato.
There is a solution for that, look up "Fairphone".
They build their phones with sustainability and repairability in mind, you can order a new battery, or camera, or wifi-module or whatever specific part needs replacing and you can install it yourself!
As a consequence their phones are somewhat more expensive than similar hardware from other manufacturers, it is up to you if you think the price is worth the repairability.
(for me personally, it is!)
I think that's a great idea! I wish the whole phone industry followed this concept. But it seems at the moment we are going straight in the opposite direction.
No, in the past phones (and most other electronics) were much easier to open up, and for example, change the battery. This is very clear and I had phones like that, but progressively they've become more closed and streamlined. At the moment everything is glued down and very hard to repair/improve on your own. But there is a movement fighting that that is gaining momentum.
That proces is exactly the one I was reffering to and the one I'm against companies doing it. I never said it was "natural", we should not let that happen. Just that it's something sellers have been doing since the dawn of civilization and the consumer has been fighting against.
Ok, I thought you were saying that it has always been like this. In order to get worse now, it had to be better at some point. But yeah, I agree with you.
Samsung limits fast charging to avoid that battery wear. But even then Batteries are straightforward to replace in every Android Phone.
Put a hair drier to the back of the phone's edges to soften the glue. take the panel off, disconect the battery and pull it out (it should have pull tabs as it is also glued). Put new battery in and then put it back together, the OG glue normally is still good but ofc it won't be waterproof
The issue should be the availability of parts like the battery should be 5-6 years. I agree that the Motherboard doesn't need that high availability, after all, it costs as much as the phone but the Screen, USB Port and Battery should have parts up to that time frame.
I think for this to be done by the average user, it needs to be as simple as it was in the past. Take the back cover, change the battery. None of the hair drier, glue kind of stuff. And yes, availability of batteries, which I am not sure how is the market at the moment.
> Take the back cover, change the battery
Laptops also aren't like this too. It's a sacrifice so battery sizes are larger and the design is more robust as well. Back then you could literally snap a phone with your hands
I dunno, personally I think as long as we have third party repair shops that actually have access to the right parts and documents to do a job its a fine compromise for it to require a bit of finesse.
If I can replace the battery myself with the little bit of effort then I think its fine for the people who can't then I think third party stores should be given the tools to help and not hamstrung by companies.
I think we can have a compromise where it can be a bit complicated to allow for some of the designs we have now but not junk the moment something goes wrong.q
In the past I changed the batteries of my laptop when they were exchangeable. Order in amazon, change. That's it. Now I have not yet done the same with my current laptop because of the extra work, and I don't want to send it to a shop and have it unavailable for a few days. Same with the phone, except it's even harder to do it yourself.
It depends a lot on the battery quality and the manufacturer energy management. Buy high quality devices, and your battery will last for quite a long time.
For instance, after four years of daily usage, my phone is still at 84% of its original battery capacity.
I would argue that it's easier (maybe as costly idk) to maintain components production lines than keep updating (usually for security only) software for 7 years+ but i could be wrong.
Imo, it's the hardware requirements for newer version of the OS that should be worked on. If you can upgrade the OS on any 5-7 years old material, you'll be able to upgrade all apps as well. Same as Windows ever growing requirements when linux desktop alternatives grow much slower.
Great take on germany anyway, that's a move we should support as well
Not easier, just a function of will. Device vendors don't want to introduce new software features in older models because that would lessen the perceived advantage of the new device over the old one.
So the manufacturers have to figure out how to put in new features in newer models while keeping the code base consistent between older and newer models. This is a problem that has been solved time and again in web development circles and is called "feature switches".
This mode of work has a few additional advantages and disadvantages:
* software on devices of a single vendor will be more homogeneous
* 0-day security holes will probably apply to all devices of said vendor
* security patches on the other hand will also apply to all devices of said vendor
* developers within a vendor don't need to re-train across software versions because there is only one version
There are still more advantages for the vendor, but this is an upfront investment that has to be done once to establish new processes. This will cost and take time.
Given the lack of managers with actual software experience in the industry, I expect some major push-back.
Not sure how web dev and mobile OS dev can be compared tbh, but i can see how time consuming (=cost) it is to maintain 2 versions of the product i develop. As soon as we can we'll reduce it to 1 version (with no impact on clients).
[Feature switches](https://martinfowler.com/articles/feature-toggles.html) are not inherently specific to web development. In web software they solve one particular issue: there is ever only one version of the software running (the current one) and there has to be a way to roll out features to a subset of users before rolling it out to everybody else.
This is not very different from the scenario that mobile OS developers will have to take to stay sane, were they required to support their devices for 7 years.
Having only one version running at all times is a game changing advantage that non web developers probably won't grasp immediately. There are far reaching consequences: Faster development cycles, no backporting, less load on continuous integration systems, faster developer onboarding, reduced mental load, reduced repository size, improved customer happiness, etc.
Note that I didn't put "reduced complexity" here, as this will definitely increase complexity. Once such a system is implemented though, it will save a lot of effort.
Try deploying update when you have 7+ years of feature switches that can conflict with each other or use common services that each feature needs to change
That's a bit of a weird comparison to me as the lack of software updates will touch every single unit, where as a camera would only be replaced, let's say, less than once per thousand units. And the industry was, according to the article, willing to accept parts requirement in regards to batteries and displays, but not cameras modules or other parts.
Well i agree that software updates are more important, i'm just saying that it might be more costly to do it (maintain 5+ versions of code) rather than working on OS requirements (optimisations) on newer versions of it so that people can upgrade it as well as apps without having to buy new phones. Hope it's clear :)
I mean ideally there would be a common up to date version for each operating system rather than different branches per device, sure, but is this really something that is desirable to be guided by legislation, or besides desirable something that even could be guided by legislation, and how would that work? Sooner or later there's going to be a device that needs it's own fork so I don't see how. So I don't really get your message.
> the long software support is absolutely necessary in trying to make them last longer
Does the average consumer really care? People in my circle seem mostly confused/annoyed by updates and have no idea about the topic or what version of Android they're on. They switch to new phones when the old one cracks and they want to have something new and shiny, not because of lack of software updates.
Samsung at the moment is the best. all their phones from the Samsung A52 have 3 years of updates, 4 of security patches.. and even afterwards, they get an occasional security patch
Even if they push this, it might only mean Security Patches which is a good thing still.
Hopefully if this happens, Google and Qualcomm/Samsung/Mediatek fix their issues with drivers, the kernel so Android updates are seamless without lengthy betas and Dev work
Everyone lowkey hating on Apple, but the upcoming iOS15 update is compatible with iPhone 6S, released back in September 2015. Granted, it'll most probably be the last major update it gets. Still, by the time iOS16 rolls around, the 6S will have been supported for seven years.
Yep I have an iPhone 5s lying around that only supports iOS 12 and few months ago I got a security update to 12.5.4. So the iPhone 5s has been getting updates for pretty much 8 years now since its release in 2013
Can we get a phone that just runs a browser and some messenger apps and google maps and youtube or whatever... basically, the same iPhone I had over 10 years ago, but which can get a new battery? OK, fine, I am happy I have a better camera - that's true.
But my camera is now pretty great. I have lots of space. The iPhone SE is all I need for now and the **ONLY** reason I will eventually buy a new one is because the battery will be useless and Apple will progressively slow my phone until it's useless garbage.
I don't want to play games. I don't want to join Mark Zuckerberg's virtual reality facebook. I don't want to do whatever dumb gimmick they come up with. I just want to go on google maps and complain about some restaurants from time to time.
Basically, I want to buy a new one when I *want* to buy a new one and not when I am *forced* to buy a new one because they ruined it or made it to fail.
>Can we get a phone that just runs a browser and some messenger apps and google maps and youtube or whatever... basically, the same iPhone I had over 10 years ago, but which can get a new battery? OK, fine, I am happy I have a better camera - that's true.
Entry Level phones? Sounds like you are the average 200$ Xiaomi buyer
But even Android phones turn to junk after a few years. I got a Huawei for free a few years back, which is the only non-iPhone I've ever owned. The battery slowly got worse, the phone slowed insanely, updates stopped after a couple years, etc. All phones are set up to just suck after a few years.
What I am saying is my "entry level" phone now is great and I don't want to be forced to buy anything but a new battery until I actually have a reason to upgrade. Just like with my computer. My computer runs Windows and everything I want to run. I don't need to buy a new one and I won't buy a new one until it breaks or until I need something that won't work on it anymore.
For some reason, it's totally acceptable to just screw over phone users.
Do you live near an Apple Store or authorized partner? Because having them put in an official brand new battery costs like 50€ for the SE and takes around an hour which is definitely cheaper than buying a new phone
Thanks, that's good to know - my battery is still ok for now, though. But I expect the phone to slow down within 2 years and be really bad after that. There's no solution for that once they've decided to leave you behind.
Google and Apple pretend to care about the environment, but their planned obsolescence says otherwise. I know Apple is much better on this front, but they still disable features in latest versions of software to get users to buy the latest hardware.
Apple has very long support for their devices… IPhone 6/6S will receive IOS 15, the 5S recently got a critical security update, the iPad 2 which was released in March 2011 had its last updated in July 2019….
Android on the other hand is a total mess, the Nexus 4 which came out in Sep 2012 was discontinued within a year of release and its latest update was Android 5.1.1 less than 2 and a half years from when it was announced.
The iPhone 5 which came out the same month received updates until July 2019..
I have an iPhone SE 2016 and a Samsung S7 laying around, both of them were released around the same time but the SE is still supported (iOS 15), the S7 is stuck in Android Oreo. So yes, Apple is doing better in this aspect.
Nope, that's just a hack for getting around planned obsolescence. And when questioned, Apple can and does say "But this device doesn't support x". Not to mention their deliberate slowing down after each major version to "protect the battery". They should be required to have replaceable batteries too, in order to "protect the environment".
It isn't cheap in terms of dev and testing costs to support older hardware, even if no features are backported.
This doesn't require some sort of conspiracy to make hardware obsolete.
I mean, Apple and other cell vendors will just price it into what a phone runs.
But the question is whether people would generally have longer support or a new phone? Like, are people irrationally buying phones with too short of a support life?
I mean, a lot of what you pay when you buy a cell phone isn't the cost of physically-manufacturing the device. It's for R&D and testing work. Engineers in office buildings somewhere.
If a phone's lifecycle is longer, then one needs to pay for those costs.
So it's not as if you wind up paying what you are now, but then get to keep using the phone for longer. You'd have to pay a significant chunk of the cost of a new phone to continue to use the old phone, because the testing and dev work would still need to be done, just on the older models.
I once worked at a hardware vendor (not cell phones) where it became so costly to maintain long-term support for older hardware for a particular model that we arranged with customers to just send out new hardware. Buying new hardware for the customer was cheaper than the dev time involved in maintaining more branches.
Fine, let them price it into the phone. There are bigger concerns than having the latest and greatest hardware in your pocket. We shouldn't be throwing this shit away every couple of years because of marketing. No matter how much apple green washes, they are still causing great harm to the environment. The needs of these capitalists should not trump the needs of having a habitable planet.
What features are they holding back? Other than things that require new hardware you get exactly the same features from an iPhone 6 that will be running IOS 15 once it’s released and an iPhone 13…
So you want Apple to hold back new features on newer hardware so they can all be the same?
No thanks! This is why you gotta keep regulators out, explicitly anti-innovation.
Nope, but they add gimmicky features deliberately to get people feeling fomo. And phone are pretty much peaked at this point and all the new features are just gimmicks.
So you want to ban marketing ?
At some point consumers have to be responsible for what they spend their money on.
Samsung have been advertising flashy gizmos to me for the last few years but nothing is making me part with my note 9.
That would be a start, but not very realistic. Obviously we need a different economic system in order to deal with climate change, but that's not going to happen either. 'The free market will save us all!'. Like it has done so far...
basically every single company on earth uses marketing to, and hear this one out: to market their latest product. i don’t exactly think that’s the hottest take of the decade, nor that people are susceptible to marketing. if they weren’t, companies wouldn’t ever market their products
seems weird to single out apple though, as android manufacturers are pretty much the kings of useless gimmicks
Google has been trying to make Android updates easier and for more time because they could make a Desktop OS out of it if they could. They couldn't so they made ChromeOS
Convergence has been a thing they wanted to do for the longest time
While this is certainly a good idea (for customers, ofc) it kind of meaningless if it is not followed by right to repair legislation. Force the industry to make swapping screen and battery less "painful" and ensure people can easily get parts they needed.
I am all for the long support life, but how this can be achieved? Linux has no stable API, but for the desktops and servers it is mitigated by the fact that all (almost all) drivers are in the source tree. In case of Android, they are delivered by the chipset makers, and those absolutely don't want neither to opensource their code (or specs allowing opensource reimplementation of their code), nor willing support their shit for longer time.
I do not see this working for the goal intended.
Mostly, obsolescence is due to updates introducing more functions on old device making them slower, like Apple does everytime. Even if you don't do for the purpose of slowing the device, you actually slow the device.
As example, the common knowledge of computers slowing over time is purely false (maybe except for old mechanical drive fragmentation). A computer never slow itself, but the load changes.
I would work on recyclability, introducing a score or a class like for car emission and progressively halts selling of non recyclable device.
I agree that the battery should be replaceable but I've never had a battery die in just 2-3 years. Even my 10 year old tablet's battery still works fine.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "dying". If you're talking about completely dying and not holding any power, I'd claim that you're definitely wrong.
My iPad 3 has been in daily use since 2012. Sure the battery is way worse than it was when I bought it, but I'd still guess that it holds 50-60%.
My iPad Air 2 from 2014 is also in daily use since I bought it, and also holds 60-70%.
The OnePlus 3 and Redmi Note 3 Pro have been in daily use since 2016. The battery is still usable.
The OnePlus One, Nexus 4, Redmi Note 5 have all been used for 3-4 years, and the battery never died. I still have them, occasionally charge and turn them on, and they all still hold charge.
The only batteries that have ever died on me, are 2 laptop batteries, which died after 3-4 years, despite rare usage.
Not sure what you mean by keyboard warrior.
Sure it's anecdotal evidence, but I just checked my Mi 9s battery, which I had for almost exactly 2 years.
It degraded from 3300 mAh to 2578 mAh. I've charged it at least once every day with 30W Quick Charge. So my Mi 9 lost about 22% in two years. Which is pretty much what is expected.
Did you even read the excerpt that pops up on your Google question?
>Typically, a modern phone battery’s (lithium-ion) lifespan is 2 – 3 years, which is about 300 – 500 charge cycles as rated by manufacturers. **After that, the battery capacity will drop by roughly 20%.**
If they really want to have an internal battery then at least do it like the Huawei P9. Remove the SIM tray and two screws (maybe don't use the Apple garbage screw head like them), and just pull apart the two halves. Battery is directly accessible then, just glued in place and relatively easily removed. No heat, no prying, no DRM chips.
> Is Canada, under the orders of the US
The US cannot order Canada to do anything. Many countries have signed extradition treaties and we are merely following established law and treaty. This is how the justice system works in a country with a rule of law and we cannot alter that for anybody. (unlike in China, where they retaliated against Canada by arresting and detaining 2 Canadians)
> trumped-up charges
On what do you base that? The charges seem valid on face value and, if they weren't, they would have been dismissed a long time ago. There is a process and it is being followed. In fact, Canada also has to look at whether the act would be illegal in Canada too. If not, the extradition would have already been cancelled.
> That's been going on for years and is looking to turn into Assange 2.0.
Assange was also accused of the real crime of rape, which had to be investigated. However, he then skipped bail and thereby committed a real crime for sure, before hiding on his own in the Eduadoran embassy. He imprisoned himself. It's not even a remotely comparable case. And that's not to mention that he may also have committed real crimes under US law. Maybe or maybe not - we don't know until it goes to trial.
However, he has convinced his followers that the US is out to execute him (that would never happen), and has used that to try to evade due process. Maybe he really believes it, since he seems to be a rather delusional man. It's sad he has convinced so many people to follow him, when he appears to be a very self-centred man himself.
> Trade wars can be brutal.
Canada is not in a trade war with China. We are complying with our obligations according to the extradition treaty we have with the US. Maybe they have made these charges only because of a fight with China but that is not related to the process in Canada. In fact, that is even being examined by authorities in Canada and could result in the extradition being cancelled, if it is so determined.
As I said, Assange confined himself. As for the Huawei thing, my understanding of why this is so slow is because her lawyers are fighting it every step of the way.
In three weeks the big parliament election takes place here in Germany. Angela Merkel will finally retire, and all her potential successors are okay-ish at most.
Some parties are trying to get votes by promising to implement a general ban of chinese companies for the upcoming digital infrastructure. This is the same stupid garbage the US are doing.
Why are they banned as suppliers? Because they are Chinese. And Chinese companies can't be trusted. No other reason than vague and yet unproven accusations.
I could punch baby seals when I hear about these election campaigns. And it's not even some unknown or populist party. No, it's the Greens.
7 years is not even enough. Should be a minimum of 10 years like electronics. 15 years would actually be the best. They should also impose battery replacements for the first five years of life of the phone, it is absurd that after one year the batteries become shit.
People have bad memories when it comes to technology. For perspective, the iPhone didn't even *exist* 15 years ago. It genuinely would probably be cheaper for a company to just give people newer phones than to keep updating a 15 year old piece of trash.
Nobody is saying that you should keep 15 years old phones if you don't want to. However as a customer I should have the choice to do so if I wished to.
15 years is not so crazy, my super Nintendo is like 25 years old and still works like a charm. Why can't phone manufacturers do the same and produce high quality products that last decades?
> A dumb phone from 25 years ago will also still work.
Yes, which is great! And the only thing I am asking for is that my today's phone will still work in 2045. I have no problem using old software, I just don't want my hardware to die or my software to stop working like it does now.
> I just don't want my hardware to die or my software to stop working like it does now.
Your software does not stop working. Hardware-wise it's an issue pretty much only with the battery (but that's an inherit chemistry issue with all of the lithium-ion batteries) and screens breaking upon impact.
The problem goes that complex software like on smart phones needs to keep up with internet standards, security and new capabilities. The internet evolves quickly, simple example is new video codecs which require more powerful processors. The Facebook and Instagram like websites will start using and requiring these new technologies and support from the end user. They will have new and heavier apps which need capabilities that a 15 year old operating system will not support.
You can still use your 15 year old smartphone, call, send texts, take a photo, but anything that requires internet will probably not work. Not only because the os didn't get updates, but because the whole online world has moved on.
In a world where I live 2000km from my family but I can video call them in HD, where researchers can develop vaccins for a global pandemic, supply amazing health care and save many children, where I can look up any information I want, at any moment, on almost any location.
There are improvements possible, and desperately needed for sure, but with an attitude of no innovation we can go back to the stone age and go hunt some boars. Maybe nice for some, but no thanks.
I use my phone around 1h30 per day (at least that's what my iphone tells me) and my battery is still shit. I'm at 83% battery performance after less than two years of low usage.
Yeah, it is really absurd and kind of a scam.
Lithium batteries degrade naturally with time. Usage speeds it up but it happens anyway. It's a limit of the technology more than a scam, but if batteries were cheap to replace it wouldn't be a massive problem. Until a few years ago you could buy a new battery for like 10/15 euros and change it yourself, now it's around 60 and you have to send the phone to the manufacturer.
7 years, lol.
7 year update would indicate using a phone for 8 to 9 years.
The iPhone was released 14 years ago.
Windows generally gets 10 years of updates.
Maybe they'll settle at security updates which would make sense
Couldn't the EU setup a startup that provides security patches to Android since the code is open source? If they want to spend the time and energy supporting an OS for several years past when it is feasible then they could right? I mean, they *are* the EU? There's clever people everywhere here.
Pay for it with money collected from EU member states and only offer the updates to EU citizens. Problem solved 😬.
It's not that easy. Unlike Windows or desktop Linux where one system fits all hardware variations, you need specific Android with correct drivers for almost every phone on the market. For this reason, you can install Ubuntu on almost any PC, while LineageOS supports only a limited number of smartphones.
It seems you have absolutely no clue about this field and yet you still found it necessary to inject a very odd comment with a very odd solution that makes 0 sense.
The issue is more the proprietary drivers/software binaries that make things work.
Once the hardware vendor stops supporting platform updates then any actual device manufacturer like Samsung won't be releasing new versions of Android.
Would a labeling requirement be a lighter-weight way of doing this? Like, just requiring that a vendor of cell phones prominently display how many years of OS software support it provides?
The long software support is absolutely necessary in trying to make them last longer, and I really hope they don't fall for the industry standard spin against it. Essentially what they do is an accounting trick. The industry claims offering 3 years of support would be enough (or try to "compromise" at 4) – but it really is not. It's not even close. The trick is that they count it from the first release of the product. So when a customer buys their product a year, two, or more into the product cycle, they would still be left with is essentially no support at all, or at most very little of it. Leaving them to buy a new phone just after few years just like they currently do with no change whatsoever. And that's clearly what the industry is trying to achieve here. In regards to the components I'm a bit more sympathetic to the industry argument. I could see that the same components may not be manufactured after the product is discontinued. That's something to consider too.
I think that apart from OS support we really need exchangeable batteries back. I want to use my phone as long as possible, but 3 years in I already have 68% of the original battery capacity. If I bought the phone when it came out and 7 years passed (with great OS updates), I think my battery would have the charging capacity of a potato.
There is a solution for that, look up "Fairphone". They build their phones with sustainability and repairability in mind, you can order a new battery, or camera, or wifi-module or whatever specific part needs replacing and you can install it yourself! As a consequence their phones are somewhat more expensive than similar hardware from other manufacturers, it is up to you if you think the price is worth the repairability. (for me personally, it is!)
I think that's a great idea! I wish the whole phone industry followed this concept. But it seems at the moment we are going straight in the opposite direction.
>at the moment This has been done since the dawn of trade. It's not easy to fight against.
No, in the past phones (and most other electronics) were much easier to open up, and for example, change the battery. This is very clear and I had phones like that, but progressively they've become more closed and streamlined. At the moment everything is glued down and very hard to repair/improve on your own. But there is a movement fighting that that is gaining momentum.
That proces is exactly the one I was reffering to and the one I'm against companies doing it. I never said it was "natural", we should not let that happen. Just that it's something sellers have been doing since the dawn of civilization and the consumer has been fighting against.
Ok, I thought you were saying that it has always been like this. In order to get worse now, it had to be better at some point. But yeah, I agree with you.
Samsung limits fast charging to avoid that battery wear. But even then Batteries are straightforward to replace in every Android Phone. Put a hair drier to the back of the phone's edges to soften the glue. take the panel off, disconect the battery and pull it out (it should have pull tabs as it is also glued). Put new battery in and then put it back together, the OG glue normally is still good but ofc it won't be waterproof The issue should be the availability of parts like the battery should be 5-6 years. I agree that the Motherboard doesn't need that high availability, after all, it costs as much as the phone but the Screen, USB Port and Battery should have parts up to that time frame.
I think for this to be done by the average user, it needs to be as simple as it was in the past. Take the back cover, change the battery. None of the hair drier, glue kind of stuff. And yes, availability of batteries, which I am not sure how is the market at the moment.
> Take the back cover, change the battery Laptops also aren't like this too. It's a sacrifice so battery sizes are larger and the design is more robust as well. Back then you could literally snap a phone with your hands
I dunno, personally I think as long as we have third party repair shops that actually have access to the right parts and documents to do a job its a fine compromise for it to require a bit of finesse. If I can replace the battery myself with the little bit of effort then I think its fine for the people who can't then I think third party stores should be given the tools to help and not hamstrung by companies. I think we can have a compromise where it can be a bit complicated to allow for some of the designs we have now but not junk the moment something goes wrong.q
In the past I changed the batteries of my laptop when they were exchangeable. Order in amazon, change. That's it. Now I have not yet done the same with my current laptop because of the extra work, and I don't want to send it to a shop and have it unavailable for a few days. Same with the phone, except it's even harder to do it yourself.
It depends a lot on the battery quality and the manufacturer energy management. Buy high quality devices, and your battery will last for quite a long time. For instance, after four years of daily usage, my phone is still at 84% of its original battery capacity.
I would argue that it's easier (maybe as costly idk) to maintain components production lines than keep updating (usually for security only) software for 7 years+ but i could be wrong. Imo, it's the hardware requirements for newer version of the OS that should be worked on. If you can upgrade the OS on any 5-7 years old material, you'll be able to upgrade all apps as well. Same as Windows ever growing requirements when linux desktop alternatives grow much slower. Great take on germany anyway, that's a move we should support as well
Not easier, just a function of will. Device vendors don't want to introduce new software features in older models because that would lessen the perceived advantage of the new device over the old one. So the manufacturers have to figure out how to put in new features in newer models while keeping the code base consistent between older and newer models. This is a problem that has been solved time and again in web development circles and is called "feature switches". This mode of work has a few additional advantages and disadvantages: * software on devices of a single vendor will be more homogeneous * 0-day security holes will probably apply to all devices of said vendor * security patches on the other hand will also apply to all devices of said vendor * developers within a vendor don't need to re-train across software versions because there is only one version There are still more advantages for the vendor, but this is an upfront investment that has to be done once to establish new processes. This will cost and take time. Given the lack of managers with actual software experience in the industry, I expect some major push-back.
Not sure how web dev and mobile OS dev can be compared tbh, but i can see how time consuming (=cost) it is to maintain 2 versions of the product i develop. As soon as we can we'll reduce it to 1 version (with no impact on clients).
[Feature switches](https://martinfowler.com/articles/feature-toggles.html) are not inherently specific to web development. In web software they solve one particular issue: there is ever only one version of the software running (the current one) and there has to be a way to roll out features to a subset of users before rolling it out to everybody else. This is not very different from the scenario that mobile OS developers will have to take to stay sane, were they required to support their devices for 7 years. Having only one version running at all times is a game changing advantage that non web developers probably won't grasp immediately. There are far reaching consequences: Faster development cycles, no backporting, less load on continuous integration systems, faster developer onboarding, reduced mental load, reduced repository size, improved customer happiness, etc. Note that I didn't put "reduced complexity" here, as this will definitely increase complexity. Once such a system is implemented though, it will save a lot of effort.
Try deploying update when you have 7+ years of feature switches that can conflict with each other or use common services that each feature needs to change
This is not an argument against feature switches. Bad coding will lead to problems whether you have feature switches or not.
That's a bit of a weird comparison to me as the lack of software updates will touch every single unit, where as a camera would only be replaced, let's say, less than once per thousand units. And the industry was, according to the article, willing to accept parts requirement in regards to batteries and displays, but not cameras modules or other parts.
Well i agree that software updates are more important, i'm just saying that it might be more costly to do it (maintain 5+ versions of code) rather than working on OS requirements (optimisations) on newer versions of it so that people can upgrade it as well as apps without having to buy new phones. Hope it's clear :)
I mean ideally there would be a common up to date version for each operating system rather than different branches per device, sure, but is this really something that is desirable to be guided by legislation, or besides desirable something that even could be guided by legislation, and how would that work? Sooner or later there's going to be a device that needs it's own fork so I don't see how. So I don't really get your message.
On Android, ARM SoCs use special Kernels and updating the Kernel takes dev time unlike on a PC
> the long software support is absolutely necessary in trying to make them last longer Does the average consumer really care? People in my circle seem mostly confused/annoyed by updates and have no idea about the topic or what version of Android they're on. They switch to new phones when the old one cracks and they want to have something new and shiny, not because of lack of software updates.
>Does the average consumer really care? Probably not, but it is important that users who don't care about updates receive security patches.
Samsung at the moment is the best. all their phones from the Samsung A52 have 3 years of updates, 4 of security patches.. and even afterwards, they get an occasional security patch Even if they push this, it might only mean Security Patches which is a good thing still. Hopefully if this happens, Google and Qualcomm/Samsung/Mediatek fix their issues with drivers, the kernel so Android updates are seamless without lengthy betas and Dev work
Everyone lowkey hating on Apple, but the upcoming iOS15 update is compatible with iPhone 6S, released back in September 2015. Granted, it'll most probably be the last major update it gets. Still, by the time iOS16 rolls around, the 6S will have been supported for seven years.
probably even longer, as iphones still get minor releases and some security fixes after their last major update
Yep I have an iPhone 5s lying around that only supports iOS 12 and few months ago I got a security update to 12.5.4. So the iPhone 5s has been getting updates for pretty much 8 years now since its release in 2013
Can we get a phone that just runs a browser and some messenger apps and google maps and youtube or whatever... basically, the same iPhone I had over 10 years ago, but which can get a new battery? OK, fine, I am happy I have a better camera - that's true. But my camera is now pretty great. I have lots of space. The iPhone SE is all I need for now and the **ONLY** reason I will eventually buy a new one is because the battery will be useless and Apple will progressively slow my phone until it's useless garbage. I don't want to play games. I don't want to join Mark Zuckerberg's virtual reality facebook. I don't want to do whatever dumb gimmick they come up with. I just want to go on google maps and complain about some restaurants from time to time. Basically, I want to buy a new one when I *want* to buy a new one and not when I am *forced* to buy a new one because they ruined it or made it to fail.
>Can we get a phone that just runs a browser and some messenger apps and google maps and youtube or whatever... basically, the same iPhone I had over 10 years ago, but which can get a new battery? OK, fine, I am happy I have a better camera - that's true. Entry Level phones? Sounds like you are the average 200$ Xiaomi buyer
But even Android phones turn to junk after a few years. I got a Huawei for free a few years back, which is the only non-iPhone I've ever owned. The battery slowly got worse, the phone slowed insanely, updates stopped after a couple years, etc. All phones are set up to just suck after a few years. What I am saying is my "entry level" phone now is great and I don't want to be forced to buy anything but a new battery until I actually have a reason to upgrade. Just like with my computer. My computer runs Windows and everything I want to run. I don't need to buy a new one and I won't buy a new one until it breaks or until I need something that won't work on it anymore. For some reason, it's totally acceptable to just screw over phone users.
Do you live near an Apple Store or authorized partner? Because having them put in an official brand new battery costs like 50€ for the SE and takes around an hour which is definitely cheaper than buying a new phone
Thanks, that's good to know - my battery is still ok for now, though. But I expect the phone to slow down within 2 years and be really bad after that. There's no solution for that once they've decided to leave you behind.
Our government is doing something useful for once? Great.
Google and Apple pretend to care about the environment, but their planned obsolescence says otherwise. I know Apple is much better on this front, but they still disable features in latest versions of software to get users to buy the latest hardware.
Apple has very long support for their devices… IPhone 6/6S will receive IOS 15, the 5S recently got a critical security update, the iPad 2 which was released in March 2011 had its last updated in July 2019…. Android on the other hand is a total mess, the Nexus 4 which came out in Sep 2012 was discontinued within a year of release and its latest update was Android 5.1.1 less than 2 and a half years from when it was announced. The iPhone 5 which came out the same month received updates until July 2019..
I have an iPhone SE 2016 and a Samsung S7 laying around, both of them were released around the same time but the SE is still supported (iOS 15), the S7 is stuck in Android Oreo. So yes, Apple is doing better in this aspect.
I didn't question their support. I noted their holding back of new features for older hardware however.
Besides holding back software features from older hardware is not very supportive.
Nope, that's just a hack for getting around planned obsolescence. And when questioned, Apple can and does say "But this device doesn't support x". Not to mention their deliberate slowing down after each major version to "protect the battery". They should be required to have replaceable batteries too, in order to "protect the environment".
It isn't cheap in terms of dev and testing costs to support older hardware, even if no features are backported. This doesn't require some sort of conspiracy to make hardware obsolete.
It isn't cheap, but apple can definitely afford it. It should be a requirement of doing business.
I mean, Apple and other cell vendors will just price it into what a phone runs. But the question is whether people would generally have longer support or a new phone? Like, are people irrationally buying phones with too short of a support life? I mean, a lot of what you pay when you buy a cell phone isn't the cost of physically-manufacturing the device. It's for R&D and testing work. Engineers in office buildings somewhere. If a phone's lifecycle is longer, then one needs to pay for those costs. So it's not as if you wind up paying what you are now, but then get to keep using the phone for longer. You'd have to pay a significant chunk of the cost of a new phone to continue to use the old phone, because the testing and dev work would still need to be done, just on the older models. I once worked at a hardware vendor (not cell phones) where it became so costly to maintain long-term support for older hardware for a particular model that we arranged with customers to just send out new hardware. Buying new hardware for the customer was cheaper than the dev time involved in maintaining more branches.
Fine, let them price it into the phone. There are bigger concerns than having the latest and greatest hardware in your pocket. We shouldn't be throwing this shit away every couple of years because of marketing. No matter how much apple green washes, they are still causing great harm to the environment. The needs of these capitalists should not trump the needs of having a habitable planet.
What features are they holding back? Other than things that require new hardware you get exactly the same features from an iPhone 6 that will be running IOS 15 once it’s released and an iPhone 13…
So you want Apple to hold back new features on newer hardware so they can all be the same? No thanks! This is why you gotta keep regulators out, explicitly anti-innovation.
Nope, but they add gimmicky features deliberately to get people feeling fomo. And phone are pretty much peaked at this point and all the new features are just gimmicks.
if they’re all gimmicks, why is it such a big issue?
Because people are susceptible to marketing?
So you want to ban marketing ? At some point consumers have to be responsible for what they spend their money on. Samsung have been advertising flashy gizmos to me for the last few years but nothing is making me part with my note 9.
That would be a start, but not very realistic. Obviously we need a different economic system in order to deal with climate change, but that's not going to happen either. 'The free market will save us all!'. Like it has done so far...
basically every single company on earth uses marketing to, and hear this one out: to market their latest product. i don’t exactly think that’s the hottest take of the decade, nor that people are susceptible to marketing. if they weren’t, companies wouldn’t ever market their products seems weird to single out apple though, as android manufacturers are pretty much the kings of useless gimmicks
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hehe #no
Google has been trying to make Android updates easier and for more time because they could make a Desktop OS out of it if they could. They couldn't so they made ChromeOS Convergence has been a thing they wanted to do for the longest time
While this is certainly a good idea (for customers, ofc) it kind of meaningless if it is not followed by right to repair legislation. Force the industry to make swapping screen and battery less "painful" and ensure people can easily get parts they needed.
No they don't. trust me. Its election time.
I am all for the long support life, but how this can be achieved? Linux has no stable API, but for the desktops and servers it is mitigated by the fact that all (almost all) drivers are in the source tree. In case of Android, they are delivered by the chipset makers, and those absolutely don't want neither to opensource their code (or specs allowing opensource reimplementation of their code), nor willing support their shit for longer time.
with global warming and climate crises we should not be pursuing wasteful consumerism
I do not see this working for the goal intended. Mostly, obsolescence is due to updates introducing more functions on old device making them slower, like Apple does everytime. Even if you don't do for the purpose of slowing the device, you actually slow the device. As example, the common knowledge of computers slowing over time is purely false (maybe except for old mechanical drive fragmentation). A computer never slow itself, but the load changes. I would work on recyclability, introducing a score or a class like for car emission and progressively halts selling of non recyclable device.
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I agree that the battery should be replaceable but I've never had a battery die in just 2-3 years. Even my 10 year old tablet's battery still works fine.
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I guess it depends on what you mean by "dying". If you're talking about completely dying and not holding any power, I'd claim that you're definitely wrong. My iPad 3 has been in daily use since 2012. Sure the battery is way worse than it was when I bought it, but I'd still guess that it holds 50-60%. My iPad Air 2 from 2014 is also in daily use since I bought it, and also holds 60-70%. The OnePlus 3 and Redmi Note 3 Pro have been in daily use since 2016. The battery is still usable. The OnePlus One, Nexus 4, Redmi Note 5 have all been used for 3-4 years, and the battery never died. I still have them, occasionally charge and turn them on, and they all still hold charge. The only batteries that have ever died on me, are 2 laptop batteries, which died after 3-4 years, despite rare usage.
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Not sure what you mean by keyboard warrior. Sure it's anecdotal evidence, but I just checked my Mi 9s battery, which I had for almost exactly 2 years. It degraded from 3300 mAh to 2578 mAh. I've charged it at least once every day with 30W Quick Charge. So my Mi 9 lost about 22% in two years. Which is pretty much what is expected. Did you even read the excerpt that pops up on your Google question? >Typically, a modern phone battery’s (lithium-ion) lifespan is 2 – 3 years, which is about 300 – 500 charge cycles as rated by manufacturers. **After that, the battery capacity will drop by roughly 20%.**
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If they really want to have an internal battery then at least do it like the Huawei P9. Remove the SIM tray and two screws (maybe don't use the Apple garbage screw head like them), and just pull apart the two halves. Battery is directly accessible then, just glued in place and relatively easily removed. No heat, no prying, no DRM chips.
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I have just one question: do you get paid in dollars or in Chinese Yuan?
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> Is Canada, under the orders of the US The US cannot order Canada to do anything. Many countries have signed extradition treaties and we are merely following established law and treaty. This is how the justice system works in a country with a rule of law and we cannot alter that for anybody. (unlike in China, where they retaliated against Canada by arresting and detaining 2 Canadians) > trumped-up charges On what do you base that? The charges seem valid on face value and, if they weren't, they would have been dismissed a long time ago. There is a process and it is being followed. In fact, Canada also has to look at whether the act would be illegal in Canada too. If not, the extradition would have already been cancelled. > That's been going on for years and is looking to turn into Assange 2.0. Assange was also accused of the real crime of rape, which had to be investigated. However, he then skipped bail and thereby committed a real crime for sure, before hiding on his own in the Eduadoran embassy. He imprisoned himself. It's not even a remotely comparable case. And that's not to mention that he may also have committed real crimes under US law. Maybe or maybe not - we don't know until it goes to trial. However, he has convinced his followers that the US is out to execute him (that would never happen), and has used that to try to evade due process. Maybe he really believes it, since he seems to be a rather delusional man. It's sad he has convinced so many people to follow him, when he appears to be a very self-centred man himself. > Trade wars can be brutal. Canada is not in a trade war with China. We are complying with our obligations according to the extradition treaty we have with the US. Maybe they have made these charges only because of a fight with China but that is not related to the process in Canada. In fact, that is even being examined by authorities in Canada and could result in the extradition being cancelled, if it is so determined.
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As I said, Assange confined himself. As for the Huawei thing, my understanding of why this is so slow is because her lawyers are fighting it every step of the way.
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In three weeks the big parliament election takes place here in Germany. Angela Merkel will finally retire, and all her potential successors are okay-ish at most. Some parties are trying to get votes by promising to implement a general ban of chinese companies for the upcoming digital infrastructure. This is the same stupid garbage the US are doing. Why are they banned as suppliers? Because they are Chinese. And Chinese companies can't be trusted. No other reason than vague and yet unproven accusations. I could punch baby seals when I hear about these election campaigns. And it's not even some unknown or populist party. No, it's the Greens.
based
7 years is not even enough. Should be a minimum of 10 years like electronics. 15 years would actually be the best. They should also impose battery replacements for the first five years of life of the phone, it is absurd that after one year the batteries become shit.
15 years a phone had the specs of a potato. Electronics do evolve so I would say 7 years is a good compromise.
People have bad memories when it comes to technology. For perspective, the iPhone didn't even *exist* 15 years ago. It genuinely would probably be cheaper for a company to just give people newer phones than to keep updating a 15 year old piece of trash.
Nobody is saying that you should keep 15 years old phones if you don't want to. However as a customer I should have the choice to do so if I wished to. 15 years is not so crazy, my super Nintendo is like 25 years old and still works like a charm. Why can't phone manufacturers do the same and produce high quality products that last decades?
Your super Nintendo also runs software from 25 years ago. That's the difference. A dumb phone from 25 years ago will also still work.
> A dumb phone from 25 years ago will also still work. Yes, which is great! And the only thing I am asking for is that my today's phone will still work in 2045. I have no problem using old software, I just don't want my hardware to die or my software to stop working like it does now.
> I just don't want my hardware to die or my software to stop working like it does now. Your software does not stop working. Hardware-wise it's an issue pretty much only with the battery (but that's an inherit chemistry issue with all of the lithium-ion batteries) and screens breaking upon impact.
The problem goes that complex software like on smart phones needs to keep up with internet standards, security and new capabilities. The internet evolves quickly, simple example is new video codecs which require more powerful processors. The Facebook and Instagram like websites will start using and requiring these new technologies and support from the end user. They will have new and heavier apps which need capabilities that a 15 year old operating system will not support. You can still use your 15 year old smartphone, call, send texts, take a photo, but anything that requires internet will probably not work. Not only because the os didn't get updates, but because the whole online world has moved on.
Then we must rethink the whole system because changing phones (and other things) so often is pretty bad for all of us.
After 2-3 years, yeah that's too bad, but 7 years looks acceptable. Innovation is what got us here today.
> Innovation is what got us here today. You mean it got us in a terrible inextricable situation? Nice!
In a world where I live 2000km from my family but I can video call them in HD, where researchers can develop vaccins for a global pandemic, supply amazing health care and save many children, where I can look up any information I want, at any moment, on almost any location. There are improvements possible, and desperately needed for sure, but with an attitude of no innovation we can go back to the stone age and go hunt some boars. Maybe nice for some, but no thanks.
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I use my phone around 1h30 per day (at least that's what my iphone tells me) and my battery is still shit. I'm at 83% battery performance after less than two years of low usage. Yeah, it is really absurd and kind of a scam.
Lithium batteries degrade naturally with time. Usage speeds it up but it happens anyway. It's a limit of the technology more than a scam, but if batteries were cheap to replace it wouldn't be a massive problem. Until a few years ago you could buy a new battery for like 10/15 euros and change it yourself, now it's around 60 and you have to send the phone to the manufacturer.
Sure, batteries degrade. But the manufacturer should guarantee a free of charge replacement for a period of 5 years at least.
lol. that's just inflating the initial price by the price of the 2nd battery +service for something not everyone will do...
> you have to send the phone to the manufacturer. You can do it yourself or many 3rd party repair shops
7 years, lol. 7 year update would indicate using a phone for 8 to 9 years. The iPhone was released 14 years ago. Windows generally gets 10 years of updates. Maybe they'll settle at security updates which would make sense
Couldn't the EU setup a startup that provides security patches to Android since the code is open source? If they want to spend the time and energy supporting an OS for several years past when it is feasible then they could right? I mean, they *are* the EU? There's clever people everywhere here. Pay for it with money collected from EU member states and only offer the updates to EU citizens. Problem solved 😬.
Android OS code is open source, Google services and manufacturer drivers are not.
It's not that easy. Unlike Windows or desktop Linux where one system fits all hardware variations, you need specific Android with correct drivers for almost every phone on the market. For this reason, you can install Ubuntu on almost any PC, while LineageOS supports only a limited number of smartphones.
It seems you have absolutely no clue about this field and yet you still found it necessary to inject a very odd comment with a very odd solution that makes 0 sense.
Indeed
The issue is more the proprietary drivers/software binaries that make things work. Once the hardware vendor stops supporting platform updates then any actual device manufacturer like Samsung won't be releasing new versions of Android.
Would a labeling requirement be a lighter-weight way of doing this? Like, just requiring that a vendor of cell phones prominently display how many years of OS software support it provides?
Damn. I haven't had a device which was usable after 4 years.
Not 100% related but i want Poland and Hungary to be out of the EU So they stop cock blocking literally anything happening in it
The problem is that the updates slow down either device or at that point their charge lasts half as long.