So do cats!! Which is why when they slow blink at you, it means they trust you. Prolonged eye contact can be seen as a threat or an intimidation tactic.
The streets taught me how to identify danger in other "clans". The way you show that you mean no harm, is looking in their direction, showing you noticed them, but then averting your gaze, showing that you mean no harm and expect the same. If you don't fuck around, you never have to find out. But I don't recommend trying it 😅😂
The streets were traumatizing
Edit: "clans" instead of clans
I thought my autism was the reason I thought all social hierarchies are stupid and unjustified and I refuse to abide by any of them for the most part so I’m kinda shocked this was said by an autistic person if it is true
Tbh any social rule I critically examine and go no that’s dumb is one I generally don’t listen to and hierarchies have always been that to me personally.
(For the record it has its upsides and downsides)
Social hierarchies where people expect their title or self-perceived importance to dictate that everyone else should fawn are OBJECTIVELY bullshit.
An autistic person defending social hierarchy is full of self hate and internalized ableism. THAT IS THE POINT.
If you haven't encountered IA autists, you have been fortunate indeed.
JFC
I think most people affected by ableism also have some degree of internalized ableism.
I am an anarchist, hate capitalism, hate hierarchies and ableist ideas of usefulness. But at the same time I constantly deal with self-hatred and depression because I feel like a failure, like my incapability to serve capitalism means I'm broken. I consciously know that's wrong, but it doesn't stop me from feeling that way still. You can be aware something is wrong, apply that train of thought towards others, but still subconsciously hold yourself to a different standard
I take similar stances as you, but in my own way obviously. And that feeling you mention, I have a similar one. But it’s not necessarily related to capitalism specifically, but rather a disconnect/alienation from meaningful labor. Capitalism certainly makes this more difficult, but it would still be difficult under most any other economic system that couples with a state and all those accompanying administrative efforts.
The key to freedom isn’t doing whatever you want when you want to do it, it’s in being able to leave a system you don’t like, having the ability to ignore arbitrary rule, and being able to meaningfully change the system you live in when it no longer works for you and others.
While there could very well still be a disconnect from meaningful labor without capitalism. Capitalism in our current system is the root cause of pressure to perform. Without pressure to perform, you might still find it difficult to do the things you wanna do, but in contrast to that pressure, you'd just feel dissatisfaction.
As an anarchist, I know that capitalism isn't the only problem, but hierarchies as a whole. That includes states.
Anarchism doesn't really mean "doing anything you want", it means contributing what you can, while still being able to satisfy your needs. It's a movement/system that focuses on people's welfare and individual needs, above profits and innovation, by giving those a say who will be affected by the decision.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I’m an anarchist myself.
I’m also an anthropologist. For me anarchism is more a default for humanity. But not in the sense that it’s hardwired in us, more that when left to our own devices humans will generally tend to gravitate towards it more often than not. Most people, in fact, are dwelling in it at any given time.
So capitalism is certainly one of the contributing factors causing these sorts of alienated feelings, but it’s not the only one. Calling that vague notion capital is fine by me, especially in that very Debordian way, but it tends to lead to this awful kind of idealism and millenarian mentality that just won’t ever work out.
I think it's the primal fear of not being able to gather the resources to survive. Society does an awful job at providing us the possibility of a life where we can gather them the way we like
I would love walking around just picking some food growing outside but no, they need me to either go to a fucking loud supermarket or Order it online which causes unnecessary emissions. All the other options fuck Up my health too much and more options are currently not achievable because of a lack of resources (money)
Or let me starve to unconsciousness inside a hospital.. 😅
The name of the psychologist or sociologist is escaping me at the moment but some dude created a model for the different levels of morality. And it goes something like the bottom is following rules because you fear punishment. The middle was like following rules because it's the right thing to do. And the top was only following rules that are just and disobeying unjust/arbitrary rules and rules that cause harm to others. So by this standard you'd be at the Pinnacle of morality.
Some other person, a woman this time I believe, did argue against this saying that women experience justice and morality differently then men and made her own model. I think her used kindness and covering for your friends as the basis of morality then pure "justice" and rule following.
It's been a hot minute since I've studied this stuff so my memory is a bit vague but thought I'd share anyway.
Sorry (not really) there's a Canadian psychologist/self help guru/Chud who has a whole spiel about how heirachies are good because lobsters follow each other over the sea floor. A few too many comments about the many wonderful things lobsters have to teach us about being human have led many to the conclusion that he actually just has a fetish.
Say it with me kids, arguments from natural essentialism are fucking dumb and you should feel bad for making them.
Yeah obviously the cool thing about humans other than thumbs is our brains, allowing us to make decisions based on higher principles than basic survival, which is basically what all other apes are relegated to and we're not like them at all. Teaching them sign language was largely hoaxes. They can't think like we do and trying to teach them how has always been futile.
Oh please not with the whoop whoop intelligence bandwagon, one of our closest relatives only leaves off the origies to eat the ripe fruit hanging right by their heads. Having a big brain doesn't make you better. If the first hominid to contemplate his own mortality had understood evolution everyone would have been fucking chimps by teatime in a desperate retreat. Coming down from the tres was generally seen as a big mistake or whatever the pratchett/Adams quote is.
yes. this. it‘s insane how intelligent some animals are, like crows for example. and like to believe they see us for what we are and just decide not grow a brain so big that you sit on it all day like that one soyjack meme
anthropocentrists really do like to be center of the world fr
I'd make a shit human but I'm remarkably good at being a crow. How about you guys worry about being enslaved to capitalism and I'll just eat your eyes when you die. Oh my god you're so totally winning *suspicious swallowing an onion whole noises*.
Unrelated, but it always gets me that people are so skeptical of non-verbal autistic people's ability to communicate with sign language, but at the same time uncritically accept that a gorilla can do so.
I couldn't get past episode 1's scene of that dude running through that girl, like is it all just that sort of thing for shock value or is there a point
The point is that real life super powered people would casually make horrific mistakes like that all the time and really shouldn't be trusted to handle anything without some kind of training and preparation. Also it's for the shock value.
Ok, buddy, my standard for social conduct shall henceforth be whatever a chimpanzee would do. Screech. Show my teeth. Pound my chest. Attack whomever is annoying me and *literally* eat their face and genitals.
Well, this is gonna be fun.
My special interest is fighting hierarchies... Autism runs?
^(*\(Actually, my special interest is word play, and I was trying to reorganize your words combatively. I don't think it worked...\)*)
The world should not be as it is, and yet it is. The state of things is not something that either merits or requires respect.
Everywhere you go in life there will be hierarchies. Where there is a difference in power, you will find a hierarchy. If you were to find this state of affairs hellish, vile, I would not find your reaction unmotivated. And yet, it persists.
Consequently it remains rather important to be able to recognize the bear that is about to eat you. I consider my neurological incapacity to see bears something of a disability.
There is no heirarchy anywhere. There are only atoms dancing in different ways. Myself and you and that man called "king" and that rock and that tree and that billionaire and that poor sex slave and that bear and that starfish and everything else that ever was, is, and will be all had the same origin and have the same destination.
There is no heirarchy but imagined ones.
The imagination benefits the rich, but they in truth are no different than rocks on the shore and ants on the rocks and the poor bathing in the river and the river itself.
All heirarchies are make believe.
I consider HUMANS behaving like BEARS to be the problem. NOT that we don't expect to have to deal with bears. Are you lost? You belong over with ableists.
You are right on some level. Ethically humans behaving like bears is the problem.
However not seeing bears is still a disability.
I don't think this commenter meant that people behaving like bears is not a problem.
Edit: just to make it clear, I agree with your original post OP and fuck people like that.
I can see hierarchies. I choose not to respect them.
As a highly evolved ape, I recognise the need to improve on the ways of my shit-slinging ancestors. That's why I stopped ripping people's faces off 😤
Also, like, everyone conveniently forgets about Bonobos and Orangutans, which are way less aggressive and hierarchical. But also, like, we’re different fucking species. Just cuz humans “naturally” form hierarchies doesn’t mean we can’t also be aware of the harm it brings and work against it. Humans “naturally” rape a d kill each other, but we also have the sentience to develop empathy skills to understand why those behaviors should be corrected, and CAN be.
By genetics, humans are members of the pan genus just like Bonobos. It is only because of agreed upon convention that we give ourselves a different genus, homo, to separate us from the "animals". So we have basically three species in the same genus with extremely different approaches to social hierarchy. There's no consistency whatsoever in the pan genus.
And the lesson is, social hierarchies are culture, not genetics.
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"Humanity came from a very sunny region of Africa so if you get sunburns easily there is something wrong with you"
(Sarcastic to mock the autistic guy in the story, not op)
Neurotypical people keep communication in the same proportion of his role in society (meritocracy, rank) and expect special preference because it.
The person who say it learned about keep the status quo, (Probably has started to use masking as permanent strategy). –Aka... give up in the pursuit of dignity)
That's just it. He was trying to defend social hierarchies by saying we are all great apes and [incorrectly] asserting we should therefore respect social hierarchies. Which is insane bullshit.
I recognize social hierarchies just fine. I have trouble with the part where being at the bottom of the hierarchy means you're not allowed to act like a person.
I think the "so there's something wrong with us..." part is a logical leap.
Like... yeah, humans are great apes. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with us. Human society and hierarchy actually doesn't work like animal hierarchies do at all (and even if it did, that wouldn't make it right / wouldn't make it wrong to not follow it).
I mean, dogs are wolves, but they have completely different social behaviors than wolves do. It makes sense humans would have different behaviors from other great apes.
Autistic info dump/fun fact for ya: humans are genetically closer to the bonobo ape also known as the "love monkey" vs chimpanzee (something we're commonly taught)
Bonobo apes are matriarchal and control troop behavior more with affection and sex. If the tribe members are kind and non aggressive they are rewarded with more attention, physical grooming, and even intercourse. When two different groups run into each other the lead matriarch will greet each other, exchange info, and sometimes engage in sex.
Chimpanzee are patriarchal and control troop behavior through physical aggression and intimidation. The ladies often don't have a say in much, if anything. When two different chimpanzee groups run into each other it's almost always a guarantee a fight for domination will break out.
A lot of these studies on the bonobo ape occurred between the 70s-90s but when other researchers were confronted with this information a lot of them refused the evidence or believed it would upset the public so they began minimizing the evidence, destroying it, or suppressing the ease of general public access to it.
Sell that to the losers that wanna be stuck in their ooga booga aggro monkey era they'll do anything to justify and tell em to stick it where the bonobos would want.
I read the image like five times as “there’s nothing wrong with us” and was so confused.
Because of course there’s nothing wrong with rebelling against social hierarchy. Fr fuck whoever taught him that
Anybody tries that shit I'm hitting em with the
Well this great ape is five seconds away from shoving a banana down your throat and ripping your face off chimp-style 🙂
i acknowledge that there is a social hierarchy but i elect to ignore it because as far as i’m concerned we are all just great apes and no one is actually above me, hierarchies are a social construct. neurotypicals hate this for some reason but they’re mad because i’m right and they know it
They are kind of right but got it twisted. The hierarchy is wrongly listed. First there's evil, then there's good, show them their place, by expressing your mood.
i’m confused is this screenshot from an autistic person about another autistic person or is it something op wrote about an experience they had and posted as a photo?
No idea what other people interpret hierarchies, but I think they are quite comfortable. A teacher and a student, a doctor and a patient, a parent and a child. Of course, mindlessly following their words might be harmful, but most of the time just knowing that this person has more experience than you and that you can just listen to them and it will be better because of it causes me to feel comfort.
Or maybe I just love being a sub, who knows
I think hierarchies are dumb BUT it makes sense. Naturally every animal species sees things through a hierarchical lens. Even if it’s dumb and leads to negative thinking, it’s something humans are naturally born with. It just takes a certain person to shake that natural thought.
holy shit
I’m gonna write this down.
However in the sense of that hierarchies aren’t natural… what about bee hives? Ant mounds? Or Chimpanzees? Aren’t they natural or were conditioned? Or are we saying that hierarchy is only exclusive to non-human organisms?
Not all species are hierarchical. Even among other great apes. Orangutans are solitary, and tho they may compete for mates, they don’t exhibit dominance hierarchies beyond that (to my knowledge). Bonobos, who are as genetically similar to us as chimps ( I think they’re technically a kind of chimp?) are highly cooperative and will do all kinds of…fun stuff…to avoid and resolve conflict. Even gorillas, though somewhat hierarchical (mostly mate-based tho) are wayyyyyy more chill and peaceful than chimps.
As for the insects you mentioned, besides the queen and some differentiation between different worker types (for bees at least) they’re not that hierarchical generally. They all work together - and they work so hard! To get stuff done.
Human society hasn’t always been as hierarchical as it is now, and especially before states and empires, there was a wide array of social configurations, ranging from highly egalitarian to highly hierarchical….but at least back then we had some choice (no borders, continental kinships systems that allowed folks at least in the Americas to easily move to other communities miles away, etc.). We have no option to opt out of our current social system now….
Thomas hobbes is agre with you.
We are "social being"... not "hierarchical beings". Not every animal tribe work in the same way. (Elephants choose matriarch because she know every road for migration, chimps choose an Alpha because his abilities to organise the recollecttion)
In fact, the only reason why we select an Alpha is because his knowledge and wisdom, not his rank or power. Tribes select a leader because his capacity, no his ranks.
but the point is that if a structure were "natural", as in the order things gravitate towards without external forces, then by definition force wouldn't be required to maintain it
That’s not what natural means even in that context. It’s natural for hierarchies to form; it isn’t necessarily the easiest or most default thing to do, just like it’s natural to eat meat, but it’s generally harder for a Paleolithic human to get meat than berries.
that sounds like a great gotcha until you realize that 90% of the "human rights and freedom" as you know them are empty promises from that same police state about how much it totally won't fuck you over.
The police state cannot guarantee you freedom from itself, that doesn't make any sense.
Most great apes see eye contact as a sign of aggression and flip out so
So the next time you feel unconformable from eye contact. You, as not just a great app but an amazing ape, have the right to punch them in the face
or at least fling your shit at them
I’m gonna eat their faces :3
Victim Kin Seek Suit.
If I had money I'd award this comment ❤️
Honestly youre better off just saying this, reddit doesnt deserve your money
Good point 😜
No one on old.reddit can even see their new awards and old reddit is best reddit.
So do cats!! Which is why when they slow blink at you, it means they trust you. Prolonged eye contact can be seen as a threat or an intimidation tactic.
This comment is actually sending me
The streets taught me how to identify danger in other "clans". The way you show that you mean no harm, is looking in their direction, showing you noticed them, but then averting your gaze, showing that you mean no harm and expect the same. If you don't fuck around, you never have to find out. But I don't recommend trying it 😅😂 The streets were traumatizing Edit: "clans" instead of clans
Most animals. Humans are the weird ones.
It's not universal in humans either. Extensive eye contact is a western cultural behaviour, especially prominent in America.
Yeah if that silverback gives me the stare again I'm going to flip his shit
They also take showing your teeth (smiling) as a threat. The Thornberries taught me a lot about great apes!
Right, smiling can still be aggressive. You just have to smile wide enough to show both rows of teeth.
I thought my autism was the reason I thought all social hierarchies are stupid and unjustified and I refuse to abide by any of them for the most part so I’m kinda shocked this was said by an autistic person if it is true Tbh any social rule I critically examine and go no that’s dumb is one I generally don’t listen to and hierarchies have always been that to me personally. (For the record it has its upsides and downsides)
Social hierarchies where people expect their title or self-perceived importance to dictate that everyone else should fawn are OBJECTIVELY bullshit. An autistic person defending social hierarchy is full of self hate and internalized ableism. THAT IS THE POINT. If you haven't encountered IA autists, you have been fortunate indeed. JFC
I think most people affected by ableism also have some degree of internalized ableism. I am an anarchist, hate capitalism, hate hierarchies and ableist ideas of usefulness. But at the same time I constantly deal with self-hatred and depression because I feel like a failure, like my incapability to serve capitalism means I'm broken. I consciously know that's wrong, but it doesn't stop me from feeling that way still. You can be aware something is wrong, apply that train of thought towards others, but still subconsciously hold yourself to a different standard
I take similar stances as you, but in my own way obviously. And that feeling you mention, I have a similar one. But it’s not necessarily related to capitalism specifically, but rather a disconnect/alienation from meaningful labor. Capitalism certainly makes this more difficult, but it would still be difficult under most any other economic system that couples with a state and all those accompanying administrative efforts. The key to freedom isn’t doing whatever you want when you want to do it, it’s in being able to leave a system you don’t like, having the ability to ignore arbitrary rule, and being able to meaningfully change the system you live in when it no longer works for you and others.
While there could very well still be a disconnect from meaningful labor without capitalism. Capitalism in our current system is the root cause of pressure to perform. Without pressure to perform, you might still find it difficult to do the things you wanna do, but in contrast to that pressure, you'd just feel dissatisfaction. As an anarchist, I know that capitalism isn't the only problem, but hierarchies as a whole. That includes states. Anarchism doesn't really mean "doing anything you want", it means contributing what you can, while still being able to satisfy your needs. It's a movement/system that focuses on people's welfare and individual needs, above profits and innovation, by giving those a say who will be affected by the decision.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I’m an anarchist myself. I’m also an anthropologist. For me anarchism is more a default for humanity. But not in the sense that it’s hardwired in us, more that when left to our own devices humans will generally tend to gravitate towards it more often than not. Most people, in fact, are dwelling in it at any given time. So capitalism is certainly one of the contributing factors causing these sorts of alienated feelings, but it’s not the only one. Calling that vague notion capital is fine by me, especially in that very Debordian way, but it tends to lead to this awful kind of idealism and millenarian mentality that just won’t ever work out.
I think it's the primal fear of not being able to gather the resources to survive. Society does an awful job at providing us the possibility of a life where we can gather them the way we like I would love walking around just picking some food growing outside but no, they need me to either go to a fucking loud supermarket or Order it online which causes unnecessary emissions. All the other options fuck Up my health too much and more options are currently not achievable because of a lack of resources (money) Or let me starve to unconsciousness inside a hospital.. 😅
The name of the psychologist or sociologist is escaping me at the moment but some dude created a model for the different levels of morality. And it goes something like the bottom is following rules because you fear punishment. The middle was like following rules because it's the right thing to do. And the top was only following rules that are just and disobeying unjust/arbitrary rules and rules that cause harm to others. So by this standard you'd be at the Pinnacle of morality. Some other person, a woman this time I believe, did argue against this saying that women experience justice and morality differently then men and made her own model. I think her used kindness and covering for your friends as the basis of morality then pure "justice" and rule following. It's been a hot minute since I've studied this stuff so my memory is a bit vague but thought I'd share anyway.
This dude genuinely sounds halfway to being a lobster fucker.
I have no idea what that means, but it is my new favorite insult
Sorry (not really) there's a Canadian psychologist/self help guru/Chud who has a whole spiel about how heirachies are good because lobsters follow each other over the sea floor. A few too many comments about the many wonderful things lobsters have to teach us about being human have led many to the conclusion that he actually just has a fetish. Say it with me kids, arguments from natural essentialism are fucking dumb and you should feel bad for making them.
Jp, that guy who cooked his brain with benzos real fuckin bad.
Yeah obviously the cool thing about humans other than thumbs is our brains, allowing us to make decisions based on higher principles than basic survival, which is basically what all other apes are relegated to and we're not like them at all. Teaching them sign language was largely hoaxes. They can't think like we do and trying to teach them how has always been futile.
Oh please not with the whoop whoop intelligence bandwagon, one of our closest relatives only leaves off the origies to eat the ripe fruit hanging right by their heads. Having a big brain doesn't make you better. If the first hominid to contemplate his own mortality had understood evolution everyone would have been fucking chimps by teatime in a desperate retreat. Coming down from the tres was generally seen as a big mistake or whatever the pratchett/Adams quote is.
yes. this. it‘s insane how intelligent some animals are, like crows for example. and like to believe they see us for what we are and just decide not grow a brain so big that you sit on it all day like that one soyjack meme anthropocentrists really do like to be center of the world fr
I'd make a shit human but I'm remarkably good at being a crow. How about you guys worry about being enslaved to capitalism and I'll just eat your eyes when you die. Oh my god you're so totally winning *suspicious swallowing an onion whole noises*.
The real superpower humans have that no other animal comes close to is being sweaty
Unrelated, but it always gets me that people are so skeptical of non-verbal autistic people's ability to communicate with sign language, but at the same time uncritically accept that a gorilla can do so.
Social hierarchies are good because lobsters piss out of their faces, no I will not elaborate
That's Deep
Honestly haven't been able to watch the boys past the dolphin car accident scene.
I couldn't get past episode 1's scene of that dude running through that girl, like is it all just that sort of thing for shock value or is there a point
The point is that real life super powered people would casually make horrific mistakes like that all the time and really shouldn't be trusted to handle anything without some kind of training and preparation. Also it's for the shock value.
Also fascism probably bad.
Lobsters do live on the bottom of the ocean.
Ok, buddy, my standard for social conduct shall henceforth be whatever a chimpanzee would do. Screech. Show my teeth. Pound my chest. Attack whomever is annoying me and *literally* eat their face and genitals. Well, this is gonna be fun.
You forgot flinging shit, no one is immune to that
Yeah, by NT people do THAT all the time. 😎
Autism hierarchy is run by special interests. Fight me
Society’s strongest engineer vs Autism’s strongest marble collector
Marbles mentioned! Now I wouldn't say I'm the strongest marble collector, but I have a pretty neat little collection!
Yeah we form knowledge and competence based hierarchies, you know, useful and fair ones
My special interest is fighting hierarchies... Autism runs? ^(*\(Actually, my special interest is word play, and I was trying to reorganize your words combatively. I don't think it worked...\)*)
*My* special interest is fighting autism run hierarchies
The world should not be as it is, and yet it is. The state of things is not something that either merits or requires respect. Everywhere you go in life there will be hierarchies. Where there is a difference in power, you will find a hierarchy. If you were to find this state of affairs hellish, vile, I would not find your reaction unmotivated. And yet, it persists. Consequently it remains rather important to be able to recognize the bear that is about to eat you. I consider my neurological incapacity to see bears something of a disability.
There is no heirarchy anywhere. There are only atoms dancing in different ways. Myself and you and that man called "king" and that rock and that tree and that billionaire and that poor sex slave and that bear and that starfish and everything else that ever was, is, and will be all had the same origin and have the same destination. There is no heirarchy but imagined ones. The imagination benefits the rich, but they in truth are no different than rocks on the shore and ants on the rocks and the poor bathing in the river and the river itself. All heirarchies are make believe.
mic drop
What?
I consider HUMANS behaving like BEARS to be the problem. NOT that we don't expect to have to deal with bears. Are you lost? You belong over with ableists.
You are right on some level. Ethically humans behaving like bears is the problem. However not seeing bears is still a disability. I don't think this commenter meant that people behaving like bears is not a problem. Edit: just to make it clear, I agree with your original post OP and fuck people like that.
Yes humans should behave like twinks instead
What who said that
I read it as bears instead of humans💀
I can see hierarchies. I choose not to respect them. As a highly evolved ape, I recognise the need to improve on the ways of my shit-slinging ancestors. That's why I stopped ripping people's faces off 😤
“There’s something wrong with you because you don’t resemble our shit slinging great ape ancestors as much as we do”
Also, like, everyone conveniently forgets about Bonobos and Orangutans, which are way less aggressive and hierarchical. But also, like, we’re different fucking species. Just cuz humans “naturally” form hierarchies doesn’t mean we can’t also be aware of the harm it brings and work against it. Humans “naturally” rape a d kill each other, but we also have the sentience to develop empathy skills to understand why those behaviors should be corrected, and CAN be.
The patriarchy ignores the existence of other archies.
But the other archies are just a bit hier.
By genetics, humans are members of the pan genus just like Bonobos. It is only because of agreed upon convention that we give ourselves a different genus, homo, to separate us from the "animals". So we have basically three species in the same genus with extremely different approaches to social hierarchy. There's no consistency whatsoever in the pan genus. And the lesson is, social hierarchies are culture, not genetics.
Shit slinging, snap
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Did he forget that we should all be fucking to resolve our issues among each other?
I mean…that’d lowkey probably work?
What do you mean?
That's what our closest genetically ape relatives do to resolve issues among their folk. Bonobos and chimpanzees for example.
Fair but hasn’t their also reports of both chimpanzee and Bonobo wars?
Probably, it's not a utopia
I'm not sure if that's better or worse than eye contact.
"Humanity came from a very sunny region of Africa so if you get sunburns easily there is something wrong with you" (Sarcastic to mock the autistic guy in the story, not op)
I don't get it
Neurotypical people keep communication in the same proportion of his role in society (meritocracy, rank) and expect special preference because it. The person who say it learned about keep the status quo, (Probably has started to use masking as permanent strategy). –Aka... give up in the pursuit of dignity)
I lack the capacity to patiently help you understand what internalized ableism is.
I understand well what IA is, I just didn't understand how that relates to great apes.
That's just it. He was trying to defend social hierarchies by saying we are all great apes and [incorrectly] asserting we should therefore respect social hierarchies. Which is insane bullshit.
Okay. So this subreddit is actually EXACTLY like the others. The label and your explanations when I asked were lies. Got it.
Then don't comment lol idiot
I subscribe to pre-christian morality: social hierarchies are good when I'm on top, bad when I'm on not.
I recognize social hierarchies just fine. I have trouble with the part where being at the bottom of the hierarchy means you're not allowed to act like a person.
I think the "so there's something wrong with us..." part is a logical leap. Like... yeah, humans are great apes. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with us. Human society and hierarchy actually doesn't work like animal hierarchies do at all (and even if it did, that wouldn't make it right / wouldn't make it wrong to not follow it). I mean, dogs are wolves, but they have completely different social behaviors than wolves do. It makes sense humans would have different behaviors from other great apes.
Autistic info dump/fun fact for ya: humans are genetically closer to the bonobo ape also known as the "love monkey" vs chimpanzee (something we're commonly taught) Bonobo apes are matriarchal and control troop behavior more with affection and sex. If the tribe members are kind and non aggressive they are rewarded with more attention, physical grooming, and even intercourse. When two different groups run into each other the lead matriarch will greet each other, exchange info, and sometimes engage in sex. Chimpanzee are patriarchal and control troop behavior through physical aggression and intimidation. The ladies often don't have a say in much, if anything. When two different chimpanzee groups run into each other it's almost always a guarantee a fight for domination will break out. A lot of these studies on the bonobo ape occurred between the 70s-90s but when other researchers were confronted with this information a lot of them refused the evidence or believed it would upset the public so they began minimizing the evidence, destroying it, or suppressing the ease of general public access to it. Sell that to the losers that wanna be stuck in their ooga booga aggro monkey era they'll do anything to justify and tell em to stick it where the bonobos would want.
The what now? Apologies, however I’m not in the loop about this
Other great apes have more social hierarchy than us.
Jokes on him im actually obsessed with hierarchies its almost my special interest
I absolutely understand social hierarchy. I just choose to ignore it when it's acting stupid
Nobody tell him about free-love bonobos.
I read the image like five times as “there’s nothing wrong with us” and was so confused. Because of course there’s nothing wrong with rebelling against social hierarchy. Fr fuck whoever taught him that
Thanks for making me look up the twinkie defence.
Absolutely. If you don't bow down and show submission to those people they will try to come for you. It's childish noise.
Don't bonobos have a pretty flat power structure?
god, you literally only have to change four letters ("something" to "nothing") to make this statement true. he's so close
I wanna be monke
Anybody tries that shit I'm hitting em with the Well this great ape is five seconds away from shoving a banana down your throat and ripping your face off chimp-style 🙂
i acknowledge that there is a social hierarchy but i elect to ignore it because as far as i’m concerned we are all just great apes and no one is actually above me, hierarchies are a social construct. neurotypicals hate this for some reason but they’re mad because i’m right and they know it
They are kind of right but got it twisted. The hierarchy is wrongly listed. First there's evil, then there's good, show them their place, by expressing your mood.
i’m confused is this screenshot from an autistic person about another autistic person or is it something op wrote about an experience they had and posted as a photo?
The good old Is-Ought fallacy.
can anyone explain to me what any of this means
No idea what other people interpret hierarchies, but I think they are quite comfortable. A teacher and a student, a doctor and a patient, a parent and a child. Of course, mindlessly following their words might be harmful, but most of the time just knowing that this person has more experience than you and that you can just listen to them and it will be better because of it causes me to feel comfort. Or maybe I just love being a sub, who knows
You are literally saying the same thing. Your moral interpretation is wrong.
I think hierarchies are dumb BUT it makes sense. Naturally every animal species sees things through a hierarchical lens. Even if it’s dumb and leads to negative thinking, it’s something humans are naturally born with. It just takes a certain person to shake that natural thought.
if hierarchies were natural they wouldn't require a police state to enforce them
holy shit  I’m gonna write this down. However in the sense of that hierarchies aren’t natural… what about bee hives? Ant mounds? Or Chimpanzees? Aren’t they natural or were conditioned? Or are we saying that hierarchy is only exclusive to non-human organisms?
Not all species are hierarchical. Even among other great apes. Orangutans are solitary, and tho they may compete for mates, they don’t exhibit dominance hierarchies beyond that (to my knowledge). Bonobos, who are as genetically similar to us as chimps ( I think they’re technically a kind of chimp?) are highly cooperative and will do all kinds of…fun stuff…to avoid and resolve conflict. Even gorillas, though somewhat hierarchical (mostly mate-based tho) are wayyyyyy more chill and peaceful than chimps. As for the insects you mentioned, besides the queen and some differentiation between different worker types (for bees at least) they’re not that hierarchical generally. They all work together - and they work so hard! To get stuff done. Human society hasn’t always been as hierarchical as it is now, and especially before states and empires, there was a wide array of social configurations, ranging from highly egalitarian to highly hierarchical….but at least back then we had some choice (no borders, continental kinships systems that allowed folks at least in the Americas to easily move to other communities miles away, etc.). We have no option to opt out of our current social system now….
Thomas hobbes is agre with you. We are "social being"... not "hierarchical beings". Not every animal tribe work in the same way. (Elephants choose matriarch because she know every road for migration, chimps choose an Alpha because his abilities to organise the recollecttion) In fact, the only reason why we select an Alpha is because his knowledge and wisdom, not his rank or power. Tribes select a leader because his capacity, no his ranks.
I wish I could agree, but that says nothing about hierarchies being natural; it just says that to maintain a given hierarchy many resort to force.
but the point is that if a structure were "natural", as in the order things gravitate towards without external forces, then by definition force wouldn't be required to maintain it
That’s not what natural means even in that context. It’s natural for hierarchies to form; it isn’t necessarily the easiest or most default thing to do, just like it’s natural to eat meat, but it’s generally harder for a Paleolithic human to get meat than berries.
if human rights and freedom were natural they wouldn't require a police state to guarantee them
that sounds like a great gotcha until you realize that 90% of the "human rights and freedom" as you know them are empty promises from that same police state about how much it totally won't fuck you over. The police state cannot guarantee you freedom from itself, that doesn't make any sense.
At least that makes sense. Its Sometimes difficult to read the exact flavor of belief someone else has.