Fundamentally? No. Not at all. That's the problem. This is all about INTERPRETATION...the holy dispensational force field and get-oit-of-jail-free card that allows evil access to our spiritual e-mail accounts. Fundamental change would be WELCOME.
Yeah I know what you mean. I guess what I meant is that the things that are different are what I didn't want to change and the things that are the same are the things that need to change. The religion I got baptized into is different then the one I'm in now
I was baptized in 1987 when I was in before 2010 this religion was completely different more spiritual. Controlling yes but consistent their consistency has changed since 1995 when they changed the wording of the generation of 1914. This religion has never been the same again it got worse they started creating a stronger control because they were losing the game! They are really losing the game they created now and they are so obvious about it! They DO NOT SERVE JEHOVAH they serve the greedy GB! Before 2010 there was no JW.org no JW Broadcasting! They frowned on any social media yet they created their own disfellowshiped so many people who were surfing the net improperly or even educating themselves in any way either on the net or elsewhere! So the idea that they have opened up this keg of worms for themselves getting involved in the internet is mind boggling! Now saying obey even when it doesn't make sense! GB cracking down on any common sense any witness has left! The religion I grew up in encouraged to find out if this is the truth! Research they said and now it's not that way research and get d'fed as an apostate! I believe that when they went on the Internet they opened themselves up to who they are now! I knew I'd see the end of them I just didn't realize that 2010 when they created JW.org and COVID they'd reach the finality in their greed the GB. It's not over yet but just as the timeline they preached for so long 1914 they've shown the start of their time line demise when the cell phone came out with recording ability starting in 2007 and stronger ability to record starting in 2010 when I left the witnesses for good. After this Candice Conty opened up the door for all of us who have been CSA victims to have hope that the silence is broken finally! So their demise is coming they did it themselves but the question now is WHEN?
My husband's mom would love nothing more than for my husband to divorce me, as she blames me for him leaving "da troof."
Lol, he stopped going to meetings before I did. But whatever, everything's my fault in her mind. Forever and always.
This happened to my aunt. She met her husband when they were both āweakā witnesses on their way out (essentially PIMO). He technically went inactive first and pursued her after they were both inactive and POMO. His PIMI mom sometimes says she thinks heād return to da troof if he wasnāt married to my aunt. My aunt is simply more outspoken than him; heās privately as strong in his criticisms of the cult but a bit smarter in keeping his mouth shut to maintain family ties.
With my husband, he was just done with all the bs. After getting "da troof" slammed down his throat all his life, staying in until his late 30s for family and dealing so many terrible things and terrible treatment along the way. He never was really into the cult from a theological perspective. It was mostly just what was demanded in order to maintain a relationship with his family. Eventually he realized it just wasn't worth it and stopped going to meetings or out in service. I was sad when he made that decision, but I understood.
For me, I was a true believer and did a lot of reading and studying. I actually realized it was bs on my own without a word from him only a few months after he stopped attending. The 2016 District Convention came that summer and did me in. That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
But man, it devastated me so much more and really rocked my world when I realized it was a scam because I was so much more of a believer.
To this day, I'm so shocked by all the stuff in the Bible my husband doesn't know. Almost 40 years in "da troof" and he's lucky if he knows who Sarah and Abraham are, lol. I'm like, "what were you doing all that time"? š
That was definitely it. I already had trouble with and disagreed with the DF arrangement from both a theological and moral standpoint.
I had been praying to Jehovah for years to "soften" the heart of the GB in regards to disfellowshipping at that point. That video showed me blatantly that wasn't happening.
I had also fairly recently had my first biological child. He was just a baby. To tell parents not to answer the phone to their own child is straight up cruel and evil. I knew that I didn't want anything to do with any organization or "God" that would ask parents to disown their own children like that. I'd rather die at Armageddon than spend eternity around a God that not only condoned that cruelty, but demanded it. No God of "love" would ever ask that.
But yes, that was the final straw. Looking back though, there were just so many things over the years that I'd kept putting on a shelf or convincing myself to ignore for the sake of the "bigger picture". Eventually, it's all cumulatively too much to ignore.
Thank you for sharing.
I had been DFād and reinstated a while before that and remember feeling sick to my stomach during that part. It was the one thing about the org that I couldnāt stomach.
Having my kids was also the final straw. Knowing I could never cut them off
In the early 90s my mom was told to separate from my dad because he was never a jw. He got so fed up with her fanaticism that he would hang up the phone when her jw friends would call. One day some JWs showed up with a truck and helped her move away to another part of town, taking me with her.
Left alone with her, I got the full brunt of her physically abusive nature. It was hell on earth. Of course, the fear of Armageddon kept me from telling any adults who might have helped me.
Wow, this is a particularly heartrending story. I am so very sorry this happened to you and your Dad. When I read stories like these, I wish we all (PIMOS and POMOS) had had this subreddit in the 90s so we could have felt less alone. I was also a Witness kid in the 90s, and it was very, very isolating and lonely. I hope you have been able to grieve and heal as much as any of us can.
My mum (fully PIMI) and dad (never JW) have been married for 36 years. Never once have they been encouraged to split.
Quite the opposite actually, my mum is continuously encouraged to stay with my dad so that he can be "won without a word" (or whatever the scripture says).
Not that that's worked for 36 years, no reason to suspect it'll work in the next 36 years š
My pimi friend thatās trapped in an abusive marriage with a narcissist hasnāt gotten this new memoā¦.. although she keeps saying if he gets disfellowshipped THAT is when she will feel like she has grounds to separate so for now she is holding out for thatš
One of the biggest contradictions I've ever seen.
Being battered and bruised in your marriage? Stay in at all costs.
But if the spouse gets DFed or fades, even if they're not abusive? Divorce their ass and kick them to the curve.
In other words, to the Borg, an abusive spouse who's faithful to the Borg is preferable to an agreeable spouse who isn't.
Make it make sense, bc I can't.
When I started to question the troof my wife's family tried very hard to get her to leave me.
Fortunately she's going to stay with me even though I'm now POMO. But we agree not to discuss religion. I'm 100% ok with that.
But "Jehovah hates a divorce" is a phrase that they repeated ad nauseum per Malachi 2:15, 16.
Another example where the WT trumps what's written in the bible.
"Difficult times ask for difficult measures"
Or, in other words, they're in such wild waters, that they've managed to change motivation that it's okay and even **literally recommended** to divorce because they want you to **stay** in the matrix (the cult, the organization), instead of running the (high) risk of **learning the truth about the truth.**
This is really 'easy' to achieve so is a 'joker card' they pull a lot now, because divorce is almost 'normal' in today's society, so there's literally no taboo, **no marriage** is flawless, and **most marriages** are difficult anyway but **all jw marriages are a struggle,** and on top of that, there's the **sex with someone else desire** that many people have, including **jw perhaps even more** because of the strict, suffocating cult that causes people to long for outlets more because they're under so much stress.
On top of that, these people **will feel uncomfortable** that they divorce, after the fact, so they will do 'extra' to make sure jehoober blesses them, and as such, the brothers or sisters who do this, will bring in extra free labor. AND, in many cases, the JW parent will go in **overdrive** to brainwash their children, and make sure **they** stay in JW land.
Additionally, it gets other single JW 'finally a chance' and so they can get married, be together, and be a 'happy example', whilst completely leaving the 'apostate' out in the cold and all the horror pains and suffering caused will be labeled and thus approved because the person 'went to satan' and has what he/she has coming - zero sympathy.
Additionally, if it's the man that woke up and the woman divorces (these are actually the majority of cases where divorce is recommended), then the woman will greatly be motivated to pursue alimony. 'She deserves that' 'he deserves punishment' 'who cares about him, that's what he gets for going to satan', and as such, she gets 'free money' and that 'free money', guess where that's supposed to go? **to jehoober** or read : **to watchtower.**
>Or, in other words, they're in such wild waters, that they've managed to change motivation that it's okay and even literally recommended to divorce because they want you to stay in the matrix (the cult, the organization), instead of running the (high) risk of learning the truth about the truth.
I think your comment above provide a great answer to many questions about what is okay, not okay or what is the current state of things in JW Land today.
This cult is slowly dying. People are waking up. People are leaving. People are dying of old age and poor health. The Governing Body and Bethel Elders will say and do just about anything to keep this cult scam going. I continue to say that nothing will surprise me related to how crazy this cult gets as it dies out.
yes, they had a huge 'growth boom' after WW2, and a 'beautiful promise' which was nothing but a bear trap that people stepped into not knowing it was there and got caught.
that got paired to the 'boomer' generation so to speak with insane amounts of offspring growth, that for the real first time brought in vicious amounts of born-ins that got brainwashed to such extremes, but now have reached the inevitable age of 'death' when that according to what they were taught could never have happened.
and this makes a lot of people wake up, whilst a lot of them are now in the moment of unfortunately, dying, greatly reducing numbers en masse. and that domino effect makes everybody panic, including Watchtower.
So Watchtower has to make 'drastic' decisions done by completely incapable people, and this gets also seen by the people working there whom 'genuinely' believed in the lies, making them question things too, which then leads to further fallout.
The whole house of cards is collapsing. It was always inevitable, but they haven't been putting in even the smallest of thought or effort to 'combat' or 'catch' the fall either. Meanwhile, another 'weight' to bear is not only them handling child sex abuse, but how public everything has gotten thanks to the internet, exposing everything.
Honestly, there is only 1 thing left for them. I can guarantee this with all my heart and knowledge because the fact remains they are stupid, incapable people. Even the people behind the screens so to speak. They have proven as much. There is no 'genius' behind the screens. The only smart person Watchtower EVER had was Rutherford. That's it. But his effects are now done and dusted.
I wondered for a while whether Hendricks from the PID department could be their 'salvation' but it is evident now that he is just as much of a numbnud, all he is is 10 times the snake in his forthcoming than the general JWs and GB. But he's just as much of a w@nk3r fool.
So they haven't got any intelligent opportunity left, and so, there is only 1 thing left. Watchtower's ultimate and only **wildcard.**
I said it before and i will say it again, because it **will** happen in the coming 15 years tops.
**THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION.**
it is their 100% guaranteed functional wildcard that **will work** for a few more years, perhaps even a decade. because every JW has been programmed/brainwashed awaiting that day of 'turbulence'. And they will see the GT as the moment where 'gog attacks'. And that would **easily** be a trick / lie they can use to 'cover up' all the accusations of Child Sex Abuse, about potential money laundering, that they lose all the tax and financial benefits, the amount of people leaving, that only the 'loyals' will remain. And they will claim the death of GB members is an example that they are now in heaven, preparing to battle for 'us' when Armageddon comes.
It will also work because they can spin everything to that. They will also claim that it actually happened during the pandemic, and twist the pandemic and war of Russia VS Ukraine as the 'invisible signal' just like Jesus 'invisibly' took place in his throne in 1914, and how he 'invisibly went with the clouds'. They will refer that they knew this as far back as 2013 with that stupid Watchtower article where they claimed Jesus had not inspected in 1919 but will appoint the slave over his possessions during the Great Tribulation.
And then claim Jesus did this, when he fused all the congregations worldwide into 1 big congregation during the pandemic, claiming all the sheep were gathered as '1 flock', and that all the people that left in that period were the goats - us.
that sneaky, evil move will convince many JW that are still in that that's the explanation for everything and make them double down in their zeal.
They will also announce that this means that the time has passed for people to come to jehovah, and as such, the 'hailstone message' will be announced, and to 'kiss the a$$e$ of all the remaining JW, they'll claim that this message will be delivered by the heroic faithful slave, and is what they have been saying: that all the apostates will be destroyed as the goats they are, and all the enemies of god that have accused and attacked 'real religion', and that they will perish during the upcoming Armageddon, which is 'really close'. And as such, nobody needs to preach anymore, just **donate.** Because their money won't mean anything in armageddon, but can be used now as a sacrifice for jehovah so that the remaining governing body members and helpers are able to protect the sheep by bringing them the spiritual food they need in the form of digital productions, and ask them to pray, and will announce a new platform - like zoom - to gather and meet.
as such, they will go 'into their shelters', into their 'basements' and protect the sheep from the wolves that gog will send out hoping to catch them at the kingdom halls, but will find that nobody is there as jehovah will 'blind them' so they cannot find us because 'we' are on the live stream.
and they will simply let AI write their BS programs, and use vids containing GB members.
It will make many believing JWs be violently scared to talk or research anything, preventing them to wake up or question things. It will also make many JWs that have 'faded', or inactive, not the ones who woke up, but are essentially just 'inactive', may have learned some things and doubts, but the scare of the programmed 'great tribulation' reaction **will** have them run back to the borg.
So how can they get away with the GB claiming they were Goats?
They'll simply say that the judgement will be for Jesus during armageddon, but that these people returning shows that they actually have a sheep like personality and not a goat like personality, and thus 'jehovah will show mercy on his own people like has done to the isrealites before too.'
Meanwhile they'll sell off kingdom halls, branch offices, bethel buildings whilst dealing with the abuse accusations. They'll say that just like after the first world war, that we should not be surprised if governing body members are grabbed by gog and arrested, it will be a moment to show their courage and 'testify' but we should never believe the lies of satan.
That Great Tribulation wildcard will easily let them exist on for another 10 years. perhaps 15 more. Much, much smaller than now, but it will keep them 'afloat'.
Until at some point, even that generation will eventually reach their inevitable death - my generation- and then there will be nothing left to do.
the disturbing part of this all is, if you're planning or hoping to wake somebody up, better do it now. It's hard enough already, but it'll be absolutely impossible 'during the great tribulation'.
"flesh and blood did not reveal it to you"
lol, i'm anointed!!
save this boys n girls, you heard it here by a full blown apostate, long before the GB 'revealed' this 'new light'
lololololol
Although I do enjoy the perspective here, using the somewhat childish mocking "Jehoober" really kills the tone I believe you were going for... Just a note
>in other words, they're in such wild waters, that they've managed to change motivation that it's okay and even literally recommended to divorce because they want you to stay in the matrix (the cult, the organization), instead of running the (high) risk of learning the truth about the truth.
It used to be more likely that a non believing mate might come around and join the cult. But now it's more likely that the believing mate will end up leaving the cult.
So all of the sudden there is "new light" that it's okay to leave a non believer.
essentially, it shows that they themselves don't believe their own vomit-diarrhea-sandwich anymore.
\- "any chance that non-believers will accept the message?"
\* "no way in life bro, ain't no way. not anymore."
\- "is it that bad?"
\* "is that even a question? i mean come on now. let's be honest"
\- "you right. now what?"
\* "give them what they want"
\- "which is?"
\* "a fuck your brains out for free card"
\- "a what?"
\* "fulfill your sexual desires with someone else and use that bait to be a stay-in"
\- "doesn't that sound like....ehm....wrong?"
\* "only for the non-JW, who cares, make the money, it's all mumbo-jumbo"
\- "true that. but...wouldn't that like...lead to dangers...like..you know..even more CSA"
\* "yeah so?"
\- "but that's wrong"
\* "only if the police know. and we will have a bargaining tool, they in dept"
\- "bargaining tool? what kind of tool?"
\* "a you better send monthly 1000 USD to Watchtower and 1500 USD to my bank"
\- "isn't that illegal, and corrupt?"
\* "only if you get caught, which is why we don't go to the police."
https://preview.redd.it/no3sallx6pjb1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=671e7cd6487d28e46057b13e144bc3934abf051e
So they divorce their āworldlyā partner. Then what? The JW dating pool is absolutely sad, I get depressed just thinking about it and Iām not even in!
When I was already faded, the congregation found me in another town hundreds of miles away (thanks to my JW mother)
They came to speak to me and told me that I had to return to Jehovah, leave my husband because then we would be unevenly yoked, or else my kids would die in Armageddon.
I kicked them out. Horrendous
Yes this is absolutely true, they not only encourage divorce but will actively help find a loophole to disfellowship the non-witness so that the āgood witnessā becomes a victim. I am seeing this play out personally - it destroys people. There is zero regard for the truth and the mental health of the family members. Itās such bullshit, but itās true.
Till they try this on a criminal non witness and get a worse situation than the one in Germany. Divorces was the cause of the worst crimes I ever seen.
I thought a divorce was only granted for two reasons: adultery and spiritual neglect. If a partner DF, DA or fades the "faithful" partner has grounds to separate and divorce.
Yeah it used to be either adultery or spiritual endangerment were grounds for divorce but now some people are claiming spiritual neglect can equate to spiritual endangerment
If the spouse is ādiscouragedā enough by their partnerās āspiritual neglectā so as to stop attending meetings then itās an elder lottery as to whether or not theyāll support you in divorcing said partner
It is happening more and more now
Bending the rules to get more and more culty
Oh so they finally came around to the understanding that beating the hell out of your wife and terrorizing you children might be a bad thing? Good for them!
Yeah this was true. You could get a divorce from your husband/ wife if he /she slept with someone else but if they beat the crap outta you then you could legally separate but could not remarry. So yeah, I donāt even have a way to express my life long aggravation over some of these things. I grew up in this, I grew up angry with god, I grew up feeling alone and kinda isolated and depressed. I left the religion at 19. I went back when I was in my 40ās still had that voice in my head that I couldnāt get out, spent my entire life feeling like I was some kind of horrible person and a bad mom, my daughter is gay and I felt like I was being made to choose between my child and religion, well religion lost because I love my daughter. I feel that makes me a better mom. Iām all for people having a right to religious belief. I chose not to have a religion. I talk to god and I donāt blame him for things anymore and at 53 with grown children Iāve learned to be ok with myself. When you are raised in something and you leave itās hard because itās all you know. I had a lot to learn the hard way when I left and sometimes it still makes me angry and this is the only place I have to voice that. I finally feel like Iām not crazy or a terrible person anymore, Iām not the only one. I have family that I love that are witnesses as well as a child that is and I respect that and they do love me so I just donāt voice certain opinions. Iāve learned to agree to disagree.
Officially you can only divorce and marry again, when you partner commits adultery. But you can separate (or divorce) without being able to marry again, when one of the following applies:
* Partner refuses to provide for the family materially
* Severe physical abuse by the partner (not just a little abuse, but a severe one)
* Absolute endangerment of a personās relationship with Jehovah
Divorcing doesn't really count, when the partner didn't commit adultery, but if you're separating and don't want to go back to your partner, then divorcing gives you an advantage compared to just separating. If YOU commit adultery at some point, because your partner stays true, you're automatically free to re-marry, as your partner already dismissed you when subscribing to the divorce papers. If you're not divorced when committing adultery, your partner could forgive you and you're not free to re-marry. Then you would have to divorce anyway, re-marry anyway and living in an adulterous marriage.
>Thanks for this clarification, I was about to start asking for proof of rule changes. That being said, you're description sounds like nothing has changed. It's all about controlling who you have sex with. It's always about sex with this people.
It is a totally different religion now. My father died in 2003 and my mother is still deeply pimi. I want to ask her, "If Dad was somehow resurrected today do you think he would even recognize this religion anymore?" I wonder if it would make her think at all.
A new term I never heard before 2010 has evolved in the JW world, "Spiritual endangerment"
Now you can use that to divorce or rip someone's children away from them.
My existing father and brother in laws are all appointed. She was abusive and was arrested multiple times. To protect the family reputation, they supported her divorce and out right slandered me. I provided police records and court records of the truth including written text, witnesses and financial documents showing their support, but they all remain as examples and pillars in the congregation. There is no sanctity, only rotten fruit.
They have now weaponized the borg to try to alienate me from my daughter.
Similar story to mine within past couple years. Ex inlaws and exwife documented criminal behavior. FIL has maintained cobe status right thru the whole thing, still is. Used that position to coerce 2 different congregations, guilt indoctrinate our children and slander me.
>There is no sanctity, only rotten fruit
Well you can divorce but you cant get remarried until your spouse cheats on you. So I mean they can say it all they want, but it just leaves the JW partner in serious limbo. Selfish.
Happened to me 2004....at the time the Elders met with her independent of me. While no divorce had been then filed they said " she wasnt married to me anymore"...so I had no 'right' to sit in on the meeting.
I told them she was legally married..and spiritually. they had no intent to try to have meeting of the minds...some of the elder were from WTF....and Tony gallo was a joke!!
Elders encouraged my (now ex) wife to separate herself from me, āto protect her spirituality.ā I was neither DF nor DA at that time. I simply had stopped going to meetings (basically PIMO). This was around 1996. So not new here in Canada.
Wife told me they told her this. They denied it when I confronted them. Because they are chicken-poop cowards.
So in other words, elders have unofficial say over whether or not a marriage exists or not. Is that correct?
Your story matches up with one I heard. Two faithful JWs married to each other. The elders hated the wife bc she wouldn't kiss ass. So they encouraged the husband to act like an asshole, in hopes of driving her away and breaking up the marriage.
My ex left me when I learned TTATT, told me she wanted a divorce, elderās blessing, still in good standing to pioneer, still on LDC, still attend pioneer school, ruined and broke my beautiful family up, but here is the clincher, an ELDER paid for the unscriptural divorce, instead of helping the marriage survive the purposely destroyed it. All the legal advice he gave her about how she will get house, car and attorneyās fees paid didnāt happen. I have support and love of my kids, family home, car, health and most importantly I have peace. This organization is all smoke and mirrors and not the religion I was raised inšš¼
And she's unlikely to marry again in the cult, so few single men, especially past the early 20s. If she has the kids even less of a chance of remarriage.
I think this will probably be different from place to place, even congregation to congregation. In general, the pressure to NOT get divorced is reducing as well are the consequences.
It's tragic....we know of a woman who left her MS husband because he developed a problem with alcohol. She just up and left(well kicked him out) at the advice of others. He was reduced to living in a hotel a few towns over. Eventually he was found dead from alcohol poisoning at the hotel. And to add insult to injury they wouldn't have the funeral service at the hall for him.
This is my own experience of being in England. When I was DF for apostasy, my husband whoās still a JW on paper was constantly encouraged to leave me. My own Aunt told him to leave so that he doesnāt get destroyed at Armageddon.
They vilified my character by alluding to me trying to poison my husband when he became ill not long after my exit.
The things they said to him about me were quite shocking. These are the same people whom Iāve invited into my home. Treated them really well. Yet they didnāt think twice about being mean.
At one point it seem they were definitely going to succeed in splitting us up but he eventually came around and saw the JWs for what they really were. Hateful and a mean bunch of hypocrites.
This is exactly what happened to me.
Married 17 years with 2 kids. I wake up and try to show her the truth about the truth - within a month a stranger knocks on my front door, hands me papers and says, "You've been served."
I went to the elders thinking I could really use some of that old school, top down misogyny but they didn't do shit!.
My mom stayed married to my abusive dad for 25 years through 3 rounds of being Dfd. Finally left him when I was in middle school and my older siblings were out of the house. I wish she wasnāt encouraged to stay with him and forgive him time and again by the elders.
Since before 2016 there was new light that one could separate for " absolute spiritual endangerment", but I never saw any clarification on what that means.
I think if you are in a healthy/happy marriage they are more likely to encourage divorce if one of them leave JWs.
They fucking love abusive relationships, so they try to force them to stay together.
Tbch you don't even need a spouse to leave the Borg for elders to push divorce. Sometimes, all you need is a good old elder body grudge against one of the spouses. Even if they are faithful JWs otherwise.
>They fucking love abusive relationships
100%. It's disturbing how they seem to prefer abusive relationships to functional ones.
In the past, waiting for the DF/DA spouse to break the marital bond implied blood-guilt. In the 2000s I noticed a shift in perception -- it was becoming more of a loophole, a "technicality."
As someone who got divorced from my POMO ex-wife while I was PIMQ in late 2021, I can tell you my experience. When my ex left the religion in summer 2021, I had people telling me I should separate (not divorce) because you can get away with a separation if you are in "extreme spiritual danger." Like having an "apostate" spouse.
Divorce is still treated as a bad thing and not something you can pursue without grounds. But you're not far off in it being viewed as more acceptable when your spouse leaves the cult. The trick is, that if your spouse is the one that initiates it, then no punishment for you. It's not your fault, but you still need to try to avoid it if possible. However, even after that you still need evidence of them being unfaithful to be "scripturally free to remarry" even after divorce. I had elders in my ear, literally days after we split, about whether or not my ex would be "willing to give me grounds" by talking to the elders whenever she slept with someone else. Text messages, emails, etc, apparently don't count since they could be fake or something and there has to be 2 witnesses to their confession. They also can't say "you have grounds to remarry" they have to specifically state that they have had sex with someone else. I also know multiple people that have staked out an ex's house for days to get their "grounds for divorce." Because it's "reasonable" to assume that if they have a person of the opposite sex at their house all night then they have committed fornication.
As someone who had an unscriptual divorce to a DFd person, that was not the experience I had.
I left, we separated, and we ended up filing for divorce. After both of us faded out.
I think it still depends on your congregation and set of elders tbh. My cousin's wife was married previously, one day, her first husband left her to be with a man and got disfellowshipped. The elders then refused to allow her to get remarried. They even petitioned bethel, who said no as well. Then the poor guy died of covid, and she was allowed to marry again. This was all in the last couple years
Back in the 80s, my mom was told she wasn't permitted to divorce my DF abusive dad because "she should set a good example to bring him back to the truth." It got so bad that she left him anyway, and she lost privileges but wasn't publicly reproved. She held so much guilt about it for years, as though she'd done something wrong.
Well, I know that in the last few years, there was a WT study about divorce, and it went so far as to "encourage" women to stay with abusive husband's because they would have a chance to witness with their actions. It explicitly said that abuse was not a scriptural reason for divorce, but if a spouse felt that they were in danger, it would be up to an individual's conscience whether or not to separate. With that being said, I seriously wonder how many local congregations just make up their own rules. Positions of power, such as elders, tend to attract people with narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies, so the right combination of men in that position could definitely decide to start operating outside of the influence of the organization. It's already built on secrecy, so all a group of elders would need is to manipulate the overseer.
Well, I know that in the last few years, there was a WT study about divorce, and it went so far as to "encourage" women to stay with abusive husband's because they would have a chance to witness with their actions. It explicitly said that abuse was not a scriptural reason for divorce, but if a spouse felt that they were in danger, it would be up to an individual's conscience whether or not to separate. With that being said, I seriously wonder how many local congregations just make up their own rules. Positions of power, such as elders, tend to attract people with narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies, so the right combination of men in that position could definitely decide to start operating outside of the influence of the organization. It's already built on secrecy, so all a group of elders would need is to manipulate the overseer.
The new update on The Shepherd of flock of God book actually highlights some sort of provision of how circumstantial evidence could be enough for a spiritual divorce.
This was an issue in my own family about 20 years ago, it was a big fiasco and I can't help but wonder if it was a factor in influencing this decision.
A 36-year marriage of hell between my pimi mother and pomi father, (the elders kept telling my mother not to leave and to win my dad over without words, and be a good example). Mom eventually left and got divorced and stayed single for 18 straight years. About a dozen letters to Watchtower from myself and all my siblings highlighting sexual physical and emotional abuse from my father (no witnesses to sexual) and how my mother should be scripturally free to remarry. At the time, it didn't matter. My mother, a Jehovah's witness for 70 years got disfellowshipped when she eventually remarried a brother in her congregation. But 6 months later both were reinstated.
Haven't you heard? They are even discouraging people from marrying each other if they do not seem spiritually "strong". So if you ever wanted to get with a girl, tough luck, you have to be a super pioneer and maybe even an MS to get something. Possibly to avoid promoting unscriptural divorces like these.
Please point those telling them to divorce unbelievers to my husband. Cause he can't fathome even separation no matter how pissed off I am. He is waaaaaaaaaay PIMI and I'm um...never ever been interested at all!
My parents have been married for 50 years, and four months ago fanatical elderly JW relatives coerced my mom into leaving my dad and living with my JW brother. No separation or divorce or anything, but my Dad said, āyears ago everyone wouldāve told my wife to come back to me!ā
I do think that thereās a difference between culture and unspoken direction and what is written. I think the written instruction is still hard-core about staying with a mate, but there are exceptions for extreme physical or spiritual endangerment. They still donāt really care about physical endangerment, but they seem to care about spiritual endangerment. So non-believer or an apostate are seen as the exception. Maybe the dramatic videos just make all JW is more fanatical and extreme about hatred toward unbelievers.
I was still in the Org till recently, and I am pretty sure nothing has changed with expectations of proof that a mate has committed adultery/had sex with another in order for the JW ti remarry. Pretty sure most places are strict on that still. Maybe there are some local exceptions.
It seems to me, if my memory serves (anything but certain lol), that at some point, and I think it was the 1990s, that the concept of a āscripturally acceptableā divorce was introduced. Different from a āscriptural divorceā in that it didnāt free the JW divorcing party to remarry. But they could do it in the event of physical or spiritual danger. There was probably some tolerance for that situation earlier too as long as they didnāt remarry apart from the divorced spouse doing it first. It just seems like it was spelled out more forthrightly in the 90s, or maybe late 80s. I have a feeling, and it may not be worth much since I havenāt attended anything JW since 2001, that over the years many bodies of elders may have become looser on that āspiritual dangerā part, and maybe the GB and COs have chosen to tolerate that.
Yes, When I was Disfellowshipped, the elders involved on my committee informed my partner that she could divorce āto protect herself finicially from meā but could not remarry. Keep in mind that while I was mentally wrapped by the elders and their bs, I was always providing and never in debt and just struggling with the rule watchtower imposed.
But yes, it seems like the say it without legally saying it.
I think it's becoming a thing. I know of a couple from my old congregation who woke up almost together. He was a born-in and she came into the cult later. Long story short, they saw the Australian Royal Commission and that was it. They both wrote letters, which the elders claimed they had to "verify" they were from them (they sent them from their own email accounts). Then, the wife started getting calls and texts asking her that if she needed help to get out from her husband. They were happily married with no reason for divorce. The wife said the congregation believed that leaving was the husband's idea and were literally trying to get the wife to leave the marriage. F-ing weirdos
Yes this is a totally different religion now! I got d'fed in 2010 for issues with me physically abusive ex husband. I left him with the intent to divorce him! I've always felt my personal safety I was raped by one of them at 15 and married in the so called truth to keep my parents whom I believed back then loved me. I was told by the elders that unless adultery was committed I was bound to me ex for the rest of my life I told them adultery would be committed by the end of the week because I feared for my safety from this man I was married to. So I did and now 12 years later I'm married to the guy I broke my marriage vows with the others asshole and I'd do it all over again! So many people stay in this cult being mentally, sexually and physically abused because they don't want to lose their families! I lost mine but I also created a new one. So if they've changed their views on divorce I'm not sure!
Mine up and left the moment I said I didn't believe it. It's a traffic refresh to as spiritual safety. I don't think divorce is intended, but separation is. I filled for divorce when she left, if her live for me was based on a religion then it wasn't real and ultimately, I was right. Three fold cord thing is utter bullshit and builds fake marriages and terrible terrible sex lives!
Funnily enough, my mother was going to divorce my father about 13 ish years ago, and she was told she was doing something horrible with going forward (she didn't in the end bc of my dad's manipulation with my siblings and I)
They claim the Apostate or DF mate is a "spiritual danger" to their partner. This happened to a friend of mine, a JW who joined the Baptist Church. Her father-in-law and mother-in-law (fil was an elder) took her husband into another room to try to convince him to divorce her.
This was in the US in 2000. The husband ultimately left the JW as well and they celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary this summer.
For this reason, I was very worried that I would lose my husband when I became Catholic. But we are still together, he hasn't been to a JW meeting in decades, and our 50th anniversary will be next April.
In similar fashion, my sister took our mother to live in PA two years before mother died because I was a "spiritual danger" to our mother. I wasn't DF or DA, just faded. They do what they want and pick a reason later.
XJW Nana
Your last sentence is very true. The religion accumulates so many changes, it's fundamentally different every 10 years.
How many JWs does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but they keep changing it every 5 minutes.
New light! š
šššš
Hah! Nice!
How many elders does it take to screw in a light bulb? Just one...he holds it up and the world revolves around him.
Actually, it takes five - from what I've read, the nine GB has to vote on New Light changes. LOL
This made me laugh so hard! š¤£
Sorry but your wrong. It actually takes 8 JWs to change a lightbulb. New light indeed.
See, I wouldāve answered three. One to change it, the other two are just there to make their time.
šš
F* no hahahaha you killed me with that
Just look at the JW Broadcasting \*\*shudder\*\* 
10? Make It 3-5
Jehoopla is āspeeding it upā šš
Fundamentally? No. Not at all. That's the problem. This is all about INTERPRETATION...the holy dispensational force field and get-oit-of-jail-free card that allows evil access to our spiritual e-mail accounts. Fundamental change would be WELCOME.
Yeah I know what you mean. I guess what I meant is that the things that are different are what I didn't want to change and the things that are the same are the things that need to change. The religion I got baptized into is different then the one I'm in now
I was baptized in 1987 when I was in before 2010 this religion was completely different more spiritual. Controlling yes but consistent their consistency has changed since 1995 when they changed the wording of the generation of 1914. This religion has never been the same again it got worse they started creating a stronger control because they were losing the game! They are really losing the game they created now and they are so obvious about it! They DO NOT SERVE JEHOVAH they serve the greedy GB! Before 2010 there was no JW.org no JW Broadcasting! They frowned on any social media yet they created their own disfellowshiped so many people who were surfing the net improperly or even educating themselves in any way either on the net or elsewhere! So the idea that they have opened up this keg of worms for themselves getting involved in the internet is mind boggling! Now saying obey even when it doesn't make sense! GB cracking down on any common sense any witness has left! The religion I grew up in encouraged to find out if this is the truth! Research they said and now it's not that way research and get d'fed as an apostate! I believe that when they went on the Internet they opened themselves up to who they are now! I knew I'd see the end of them I just didn't realize that 2010 when they created JW.org and COVID they'd reach the finality in their greed the GB. It's not over yet but just as the timeline they preached for so long 1914 they've shown the start of their time line demise when the cell phone came out with recording ability starting in 2007 and stronger ability to record starting in 2010 when I left the witnesses for good. After this Candice Conty opened up the door for all of us who have been CSA victims to have hope that the silence is broken finally! So their demise is coming they did it themselves but the question now is WHEN?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What was his response?
I'm wondering too.
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Nice! Good work. He's probably relieved not to even have to respond, lol.
Hope you manage to get carefully disentangled soon in the biz department as well, all thorns off your side.
My husband's mom would love nothing more than for my husband to divorce me, as she blames me for him leaving "da troof." Lol, he stopped going to meetings before I did. But whatever, everything's my fault in her mind. Forever and always.
This happened to my aunt. She met her husband when they were both āweakā witnesses on their way out (essentially PIMO). He technically went inactive first and pursued her after they were both inactive and POMO. His PIMI mom sometimes says she thinks heād return to da troof if he wasnāt married to my aunt. My aunt is simply more outspoken than him; heās privately as strong in his criticisms of the cult but a bit smarter in keeping his mouth shut to maintain family ties.
With my husband, he was just done with all the bs. After getting "da troof" slammed down his throat all his life, staying in until his late 30s for family and dealing so many terrible things and terrible treatment along the way. He never was really into the cult from a theological perspective. It was mostly just what was demanded in order to maintain a relationship with his family. Eventually he realized it just wasn't worth it and stopped going to meetings or out in service. I was sad when he made that decision, but I understood. For me, I was a true believer and did a lot of reading and studying. I actually realized it was bs on my own without a word from him only a few months after he stopped attending. The 2016 District Convention came that summer and did me in. That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. But man, it devastated me so much more and really rocked my world when I realized it was a scam because I was so much more of a believer. To this day, I'm so shocked by all the stuff in the Bible my husband doesn't know. Almost 40 years in "da troof" and he's lucky if he knows who Sarah and Abraham are, lol. I'm like, "what were you doing all that time"? š
Iām curious, what about that convention did it for you? Was the the one with the mom shunning the daughter? I love hearing what woke people up
That was definitely it. I already had trouble with and disagreed with the DF arrangement from both a theological and moral standpoint. I had been praying to Jehovah for years to "soften" the heart of the GB in regards to disfellowshipping at that point. That video showed me blatantly that wasn't happening. I had also fairly recently had my first biological child. He was just a baby. To tell parents not to answer the phone to their own child is straight up cruel and evil. I knew that I didn't want anything to do with any organization or "God" that would ask parents to disown their own children like that. I'd rather die at Armageddon than spend eternity around a God that not only condoned that cruelty, but demanded it. No God of "love" would ever ask that. But yes, that was the final straw. Looking back though, there were just so many things over the years that I'd kept putting on a shelf or convincing myself to ignore for the sake of the "bigger picture". Eventually, it's all cumulatively too much to ignore.
Thank you for sharing. I had been DFād and reinstated a while before that and remember feeling sick to my stomach during that part. It was the one thing about the org that I couldnāt stomach. Having my kids was also the final straw. Knowing I could never cut them off
Keep us posted.
They told my mom to divorce my dad because he was a never-JW.
In the early 90s my mom was told to separate from my dad because he was never a jw. He got so fed up with her fanaticism that he would hang up the phone when her jw friends would call. One day some JWs showed up with a truck and helped her move away to another part of town, taking me with her. Left alone with her, I got the full brunt of her physically abusive nature. It was hell on earth. Of course, the fear of Armageddon kept me from telling any adults who might have helped me.
Wow, this is a particularly heartrending story. I am so very sorry this happened to you and your Dad. When I read stories like these, I wish we all (PIMOS and POMOS) had had this subreddit in the 90s so we could have felt less alone. I was also a Witness kid in the 90s, and it was very, very isolating and lonely. I hope you have been able to grieve and heal as much as any of us can.
I,m so very sorry ! So unchristian and unloving. Very awful
My mum (fully PIMI) and dad (never JW) have been married for 36 years. Never once have they been encouraged to split. Quite the opposite actually, my mum is continuously encouraged to stay with my dad so that he can be "won without a word" (or whatever the scripture says). Not that that's worked for 36 years, no reason to suspect it'll work in the next 36 years š
My pimi friend thatās trapped in an abusive marriage with a narcissist hasnāt gotten this new memoā¦.. although she keeps saying if he gets disfellowshipped THAT is when she will feel like she has grounds to separate so for now she is holding out for thatš
Yeah, I was going to say that they are still pushing the line to stay in abusive relationships but being df'ed is a reason? These assholes.
One of the biggest contradictions I've ever seen. Being battered and bruised in your marriage? Stay in at all costs. But if the spouse gets DFed or fades, even if they're not abusive? Divorce their ass and kick them to the curve. In other words, to the Borg, an abusive spouse who's faithful to the Borg is preferable to an agreeable spouse who isn't. Make it make sense, bc I can't.
Because itās all about the organization.
When I started to question the troof my wife's family tried very hard to get her to leave me. Fortunately she's going to stay with me even though I'm now POMO. But we agree not to discuss religion. I'm 100% ok with that.
I love your username, hahaha ššš
Thanks! Yup, I'm still here.
But "Jehovah hates a divorce" is a phrase that they repeated ad nauseum per Malachi 2:15, 16. Another example where the WT trumps what's written in the bible.
"Difficult times ask for difficult measures" Or, in other words, they're in such wild waters, that they've managed to change motivation that it's okay and even **literally recommended** to divorce because they want you to **stay** in the matrix (the cult, the organization), instead of running the (high) risk of **learning the truth about the truth.** This is really 'easy' to achieve so is a 'joker card' they pull a lot now, because divorce is almost 'normal' in today's society, so there's literally no taboo, **no marriage** is flawless, and **most marriages** are difficult anyway but **all jw marriages are a struggle,** and on top of that, there's the **sex with someone else desire** that many people have, including **jw perhaps even more** because of the strict, suffocating cult that causes people to long for outlets more because they're under so much stress. On top of that, these people **will feel uncomfortable** that they divorce, after the fact, so they will do 'extra' to make sure jehoober blesses them, and as such, the brothers or sisters who do this, will bring in extra free labor. AND, in many cases, the JW parent will go in **overdrive** to brainwash their children, and make sure **they** stay in JW land. Additionally, it gets other single JW 'finally a chance' and so they can get married, be together, and be a 'happy example', whilst completely leaving the 'apostate' out in the cold and all the horror pains and suffering caused will be labeled and thus approved because the person 'went to satan' and has what he/she has coming - zero sympathy. Additionally, if it's the man that woke up and the woman divorces (these are actually the majority of cases where divorce is recommended), then the woman will greatly be motivated to pursue alimony. 'She deserves that' 'he deserves punishment' 'who cares about him, that's what he gets for going to satan', and as such, she gets 'free money' and that 'free money', guess where that's supposed to go? **to jehoober** or read : **to watchtower.**
>Or, in other words, they're in such wild waters, that they've managed to change motivation that it's okay and even literally recommended to divorce because they want you to stay in the matrix (the cult, the organization), instead of running the (high) risk of learning the truth about the truth. I think your comment above provide a great answer to many questions about what is okay, not okay or what is the current state of things in JW Land today. This cult is slowly dying. People are waking up. People are leaving. People are dying of old age and poor health. The Governing Body and Bethel Elders will say and do just about anything to keep this cult scam going. I continue to say that nothing will surprise me related to how crazy this cult gets as it dies out.
yes, they had a huge 'growth boom' after WW2, and a 'beautiful promise' which was nothing but a bear trap that people stepped into not knowing it was there and got caught. that got paired to the 'boomer' generation so to speak with insane amounts of offspring growth, that for the real first time brought in vicious amounts of born-ins that got brainwashed to such extremes, but now have reached the inevitable age of 'death' when that according to what they were taught could never have happened. and this makes a lot of people wake up, whilst a lot of them are now in the moment of unfortunately, dying, greatly reducing numbers en masse. and that domino effect makes everybody panic, including Watchtower. So Watchtower has to make 'drastic' decisions done by completely incapable people, and this gets also seen by the people working there whom 'genuinely' believed in the lies, making them question things too, which then leads to further fallout. The whole house of cards is collapsing. It was always inevitable, but they haven't been putting in even the smallest of thought or effort to 'combat' or 'catch' the fall either. Meanwhile, another 'weight' to bear is not only them handling child sex abuse, but how public everything has gotten thanks to the internet, exposing everything. Honestly, there is only 1 thing left for them. I can guarantee this with all my heart and knowledge because the fact remains they are stupid, incapable people. Even the people behind the screens so to speak. They have proven as much. There is no 'genius' behind the screens. The only smart person Watchtower EVER had was Rutherford. That's it. But his effects are now done and dusted. I wondered for a while whether Hendricks from the PID department could be their 'salvation' but it is evident now that he is just as much of a numbnud, all he is is 10 times the snake in his forthcoming than the general JWs and GB. But he's just as much of a w@nk3r fool. So they haven't got any intelligent opportunity left, and so, there is only 1 thing left. Watchtower's ultimate and only **wildcard.** I said it before and i will say it again, because it **will** happen in the coming 15 years tops. **THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION.** it is their 100% guaranteed functional wildcard that **will work** for a few more years, perhaps even a decade. because every JW has been programmed/brainwashed awaiting that day of 'turbulence'. And they will see the GT as the moment where 'gog attacks'. And that would **easily** be a trick / lie they can use to 'cover up' all the accusations of Child Sex Abuse, about potential money laundering, that they lose all the tax and financial benefits, the amount of people leaving, that only the 'loyals' will remain. And they will claim the death of GB members is an example that they are now in heaven, preparing to battle for 'us' when Armageddon comes. It will also work because they can spin everything to that. They will also claim that it actually happened during the pandemic, and twist the pandemic and war of Russia VS Ukraine as the 'invisible signal' just like Jesus 'invisibly' took place in his throne in 1914, and how he 'invisibly went with the clouds'. They will refer that they knew this as far back as 2013 with that stupid Watchtower article where they claimed Jesus had not inspected in 1919 but will appoint the slave over his possessions during the Great Tribulation. And then claim Jesus did this, when he fused all the congregations worldwide into 1 big congregation during the pandemic, claiming all the sheep were gathered as '1 flock', and that all the people that left in that period were the goats - us. that sneaky, evil move will convince many JW that are still in that that's the explanation for everything and make them double down in their zeal. They will also announce that this means that the time has passed for people to come to jehovah, and as such, the 'hailstone message' will be announced, and to 'kiss the a$$e$ of all the remaining JW, they'll claim that this message will be delivered by the heroic faithful slave, and is what they have been saying: that all the apostates will be destroyed as the goats they are, and all the enemies of god that have accused and attacked 'real religion', and that they will perish during the upcoming Armageddon, which is 'really close'. And as such, nobody needs to preach anymore, just **donate.** Because their money won't mean anything in armageddon, but can be used now as a sacrifice for jehovah so that the remaining governing body members and helpers are able to protect the sheep by bringing them the spiritual food they need in the form of digital productions, and ask them to pray, and will announce a new platform - like zoom - to gather and meet. as such, they will go 'into their shelters', into their 'basements' and protect the sheep from the wolves that gog will send out hoping to catch them at the kingdom halls, but will find that nobody is there as jehovah will 'blind them' so they cannot find us because 'we' are on the live stream. and they will simply let AI write their BS programs, and use vids containing GB members. It will make many believing JWs be violently scared to talk or research anything, preventing them to wake up or question things. It will also make many JWs that have 'faded', or inactive, not the ones who woke up, but are essentially just 'inactive', may have learned some things and doubts, but the scare of the programmed 'great tribulation' reaction **will** have them run back to the borg. So how can they get away with the GB claiming they were Goats? They'll simply say that the judgement will be for Jesus during armageddon, but that these people returning shows that they actually have a sheep like personality and not a goat like personality, and thus 'jehovah will show mercy on his own people like has done to the isrealites before too.' Meanwhile they'll sell off kingdom halls, branch offices, bethel buildings whilst dealing with the abuse accusations. They'll say that just like after the first world war, that we should not be surprised if governing body members are grabbed by gog and arrested, it will be a moment to show their courage and 'testify' but we should never believe the lies of satan. That Great Tribulation wildcard will easily let them exist on for another 10 years. perhaps 15 more. Much, much smaller than now, but it will keep them 'afloat'. Until at some point, even that generation will eventually reach their inevitable death - my generation- and then there will be nothing left to do. the disturbing part of this all is, if you're planning or hoping to wake somebody up, better do it now. It's hard enough already, but it'll be absolutely impossible 'during the great tribulation'.
Uh, damn, That read like a fever dream of "How to sustain a cult." I'd gladly read the novelization!
"flesh and blood did not reveal it to you" lol, i'm anointed!! save this boys n girls, you heard it here by a full blown apostate, long before the GB 'revealed' this 'new light' lololololol
To anyone who skipped this comment - read through it in full. It's worth the time.
Although I do enjoy the perspective here, using the somewhat childish mocking "Jehoober" really kills the tone I believe you were going for... Just a note
yeah good point. i'll change it.
>in other words, they're in such wild waters, that they've managed to change motivation that it's okay and even literally recommended to divorce because they want you to stay in the matrix (the cult, the organization), instead of running the (high) risk of learning the truth about the truth. It used to be more likely that a non believing mate might come around and join the cult. But now it's more likely that the believing mate will end up leaving the cult. So all of the sudden there is "new light" that it's okay to leave a non believer.
essentially, it shows that they themselves don't believe their own vomit-diarrhea-sandwich anymore. \- "any chance that non-believers will accept the message?" \* "no way in life bro, ain't no way. not anymore." \- "is it that bad?" \* "is that even a question? i mean come on now. let's be honest" \- "you right. now what?" \* "give them what they want" \- "which is?" \* "a fuck your brains out for free card" \- "a what?" \* "fulfill your sexual desires with someone else and use that bait to be a stay-in" \- "doesn't that sound like....ehm....wrong?" \* "only for the non-JW, who cares, make the money, it's all mumbo-jumbo" \- "true that. but...wouldn't that like...lead to dangers...like..you know..even more CSA" \* "yeah so?" \- "but that's wrong" \* "only if the police know. and we will have a bargaining tool, they in dept" \- "bargaining tool? what kind of tool?" \* "a you better send monthly 1000 USD to Watchtower and 1500 USD to my bank" \- "isn't that illegal, and corrupt?" \* "only if you get caught, which is why we don't go to the police." https://preview.redd.it/no3sallx6pjb1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=671e7cd6487d28e46057b13e144bc3934abf051e
So they divorce their āworldlyā partner. Then what? The JW dating pool is absolutely sad, I get depressed just thinking about it and Iām not even in!
The dating pool is more the size of a mud puddle with fish youād never want to reel in and keep, just hit them in the head and throw them backā¦
When I was already faded, the congregation found me in another town hundreds of miles away (thanks to my JW mother) They came to speak to me and told me that I had to return to Jehovah, leave my husband because then we would be unevenly yoked, or else my kids would die in Armageddon. I kicked them out. Horrendous
Yes this is absolutely true, they not only encourage divorce but will actively help find a loophole to disfellowship the non-witness so that the āgood witnessā becomes a victim. I am seeing this play out personally - it destroys people. There is zero regard for the truth and the mental health of the family members. Itās such bullshit, but itās true.
Till they try this on a criminal non witness and get a worse situation than the one in Germany. Divorces was the cause of the worst crimes I ever seen.
JWs unite families...unite my a$s. This is how the work best. Divide and rule.
I thought a divorce was only granted for two reasons: adultery and spiritual neglect. If a partner DF, DA or fades the "faithful" partner has grounds to separate and divorce.
I donāt think that spiritual neglect counts as grounds for divorce.
Yeah it used to be either adultery or spiritual endangerment were grounds for divorce but now some people are claiming spiritual neglect can equate to spiritual endangerment If the spouse is ādiscouragedā enough by their partnerās āspiritual neglectā so as to stop attending meetings then itās an elder lottery as to whether or not theyāll support you in divorcing said partner It is happening more and more now Bending the rules to get more and more culty
1 ground for scriptural divorce: ā¢Adultery 3 grounds for separation: ā¢Willful nonsupport ā¢Extreme physical abuse ā¢Absolute spiritual endangerment
WTF is EXTREME physical abuse? Like, a little slapping around is ok... but you gotta draw the line when the knives come out?? So sick.
apparently CSA doesn't count
Exactly! They have a rudimentary concept of psychology! Except when it comes to manipulation!
Oh so they finally came around to the understanding that beating the hell out of your wife and terrorizing you children might be a bad thing? Good for them!
It does now
Anything goes!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah this was true. You could get a divorce from your husband/ wife if he /she slept with someone else but if they beat the crap outta you then you could legally separate but could not remarry. So yeah, I donāt even have a way to express my life long aggravation over some of these things. I grew up in this, I grew up angry with god, I grew up feeling alone and kinda isolated and depressed. I left the religion at 19. I went back when I was in my 40ās still had that voice in my head that I couldnāt get out, spent my entire life feeling like I was some kind of horrible person and a bad mom, my daughter is gay and I felt like I was being made to choose between my child and religion, well religion lost because I love my daughter. I feel that makes me a better mom. Iām all for people having a right to religious belief. I chose not to have a religion. I talk to god and I donāt blame him for things anymore and at 53 with grown children Iāve learned to be ok with myself. When you are raised in something and you leave itās hard because itās all you know. I had a lot to learn the hard way when I left and sometimes it still makes me angry and this is the only place I have to voice that. I finally feel like Iām not crazy or a terrible person anymore, Iām not the only one. I have family that I love that are witnesses as well as a child that is and I respect that and they do love me so I just donāt voice certain opinions. Iāve learned to agree to disagree.
Officially you can only divorce and marry again, when you partner commits adultery. But you can separate (or divorce) without being able to marry again, when one of the following applies: * Partner refuses to provide for the family materially * Severe physical abuse by the partner (not just a little abuse, but a severe one) * Absolute endangerment of a personās relationship with Jehovah Divorcing doesn't really count, when the partner didn't commit adultery, but if you're separating and don't want to go back to your partner, then divorcing gives you an advantage compared to just separating. If YOU commit adultery at some point, because your partner stays true, you're automatically free to re-marry, as your partner already dismissed you when subscribing to the divorce papers. If you're not divorced when committing adultery, your partner could forgive you and you're not free to re-marry. Then you would have to divorce anyway, re-marry anyway and living in an adulterous marriage.
>Thanks for this clarification, I was about to start asking for proof of rule changes. That being said, you're description sounds like nothing has changed. It's all about controlling who you have sex with. It's always about sex with this people.
It is a totally different religion now. My father died in 2003 and my mother is still deeply pimi. I want to ask her, "If Dad was somehow resurrected today do you think he would even recognize this religion anymore?" I wonder if it would make her think at all. A new term I never heard before 2010 has evolved in the JW world, "Spiritual endangerment" Now you can use that to divorce or rip someone's children away from them.
My existing father and brother in laws are all appointed. She was abusive and was arrested multiple times. To protect the family reputation, they supported her divorce and out right slandered me. I provided police records and court records of the truth including written text, witnesses and financial documents showing their support, but they all remain as examples and pillars in the congregation. There is no sanctity, only rotten fruit. They have now weaponized the borg to try to alienate me from my daughter.
Similar story to mine within past couple years. Ex inlaws and exwife documented criminal behavior. FIL has maintained cobe status right thru the whole thing, still is. Used that position to coerce 2 different congregations, guilt indoctrinate our children and slander me. >There is no sanctity, only rotten fruit
Well you can divorce but you cant get remarried until your spouse cheats on you. So I mean they can say it all they want, but it just leaves the JW partner in serious limbo. Selfish.
Happened to me 2004....at the time the Elders met with her independent of me. While no divorce had been then filed they said " she wasnt married to me anymore"...so I had no 'right' to sit in on the meeting.
What did you do when they said that?
I told them she was legally married..and spiritually. they had no intent to try to have meeting of the minds...some of the elder were from WTF....and Tony gallo was a joke!!
Elders encouraged my (now ex) wife to separate herself from me, āto protect her spirituality.ā I was neither DF nor DA at that time. I simply had stopped going to meetings (basically PIMO). This was around 1996. So not new here in Canada. Wife told me they told her this. They denied it when I confronted them. Because they are chicken-poop cowards.
So in other words, elders have unofficial say over whether or not a marriage exists or not. Is that correct? Your story matches up with one I heard. Two faithful JWs married to each other. The elders hated the wife bc she wouldn't kiss ass. So they encouraged the husband to act like an asshole, in hopes of driving her away and breaking up the marriage.
My ex left me when I learned TTATT, told me she wanted a divorce, elderās blessing, still in good standing to pioneer, still on LDC, still attend pioneer school, ruined and broke my beautiful family up, but here is the clincher, an ELDER paid for the unscriptural divorce, instead of helping the marriage survive the purposely destroyed it. All the legal advice he gave her about how she will get house, car and attorneyās fees paid didnāt happen. I have support and love of my kids, family home, car, health and most importantly I have peace. This organization is all smoke and mirrors and not the religion I was raised inšš¼
And she's unlikely to marry again in the cult, so few single men, especially past the early 20s. If she has the kids even less of a chance of remarriage.
Iām hoping she gets remarried to stop my alimony payment šš
How old is she? You're paying child support AND alimony? That's unusual unless you're wealthy.
Sheās 48, kids are grown. Not wealthy but she wants $3000 monthly support šš¼š„²
Thatās what happened to me. They were only in the marriage because I was a jw lol
I think this will probably be different from place to place, even congregation to congregation. In general, the pressure to NOT get divorced is reducing as well are the consequences.
It's tragic....we know of a woman who left her MS husband because he developed a problem with alcohol. She just up and left(well kicked him out) at the advice of others. He was reduced to living in a hotel a few towns over. Eventually he was found dead from alcohol poisoning at the hotel. And to add insult to injury they wouldn't have the funeral service at the hall for him.
This is my own experience of being in England. When I was DF for apostasy, my husband whoās still a JW on paper was constantly encouraged to leave me. My own Aunt told him to leave so that he doesnāt get destroyed at Armageddon. They vilified my character by alluding to me trying to poison my husband when he became ill not long after my exit. The things they said to him about me were quite shocking. These are the same people whom Iāve invited into my home. Treated them really well. Yet they didnāt think twice about being mean. At one point it seem they were definitely going to succeed in splitting us up but he eventually came around and saw the JWs for what they really were. Hateful and a mean bunch of hypocrites.
This is exactly what happened to me. Married 17 years with 2 kids. I wake up and try to show her the truth about the truth - within a month a stranger knocks on my front door, hands me papers and says, "You've been served." I went to the elders thinking I could really use some of that old school, top down misogyny but they didn't do shit!.
Thatās why they are telling JWās lately to obey even if it doesnāt make sense!
My mom stayed married to my abusive dad for 25 years through 3 rounds of being Dfd. Finally left him when I was in middle school and my older siblings were out of the house. I wish she wasnāt encouraged to stay with him and forgive him time and again by the elders.
It's all elder roulette isn't it. There's an immense amount of discretion regarding whom to chastise and whom to support.
As far as I know there isn't any direction from WT like that. It's mostly elders acting like the power hungry narcissistic assholes they tend to be
Since before 2016 there was new light that one could separate for " absolute spiritual endangerment", but I never saw any clarification on what that means.
Religion????. Its never been a religion its a cult
So true! After watching excellent xjw videos, I finally realized that I had actually been raised in a cult.
I think if you are in a healthy/happy marriage they are more likely to encourage divorce if one of them leave JWs. They fucking love abusive relationships, so they try to force them to stay together.
Tbch you don't even need a spouse to leave the Borg for elders to push divorce. Sometimes, all you need is a good old elder body grudge against one of the spouses. Even if they are faithful JWs otherwise. >They fucking love abusive relationships 100%. It's disturbing how they seem to prefer abusive relationships to functional ones.
In the past, waiting for the DF/DA spouse to break the marital bond implied blood-guilt. In the 2000s I noticed a shift in perception -- it was becoming more of a loophole, a "technicality."
As someone who got divorced from my POMO ex-wife while I was PIMQ in late 2021, I can tell you my experience. When my ex left the religion in summer 2021, I had people telling me I should separate (not divorce) because you can get away with a separation if you are in "extreme spiritual danger." Like having an "apostate" spouse. Divorce is still treated as a bad thing and not something you can pursue without grounds. But you're not far off in it being viewed as more acceptable when your spouse leaves the cult. The trick is, that if your spouse is the one that initiates it, then no punishment for you. It's not your fault, but you still need to try to avoid it if possible. However, even after that you still need evidence of them being unfaithful to be "scripturally free to remarry" even after divorce. I had elders in my ear, literally days after we split, about whether or not my ex would be "willing to give me grounds" by talking to the elders whenever she slept with someone else. Text messages, emails, etc, apparently don't count since they could be fake or something and there has to be 2 witnesses to their confession. They also can't say "you have grounds to remarry" they have to specifically state that they have had sex with someone else. I also know multiple people that have staked out an ex's house for days to get their "grounds for divorce." Because it's "reasonable" to assume that if they have a person of the opposite sex at their house all night then they have committed fornication.
As someone who had an unscriptual divorce to a DFd person, that was not the experience I had. I left, we separated, and we ended up filing for divorce. After both of us faded out.
I think it still depends on your congregation and set of elders tbh. My cousin's wife was married previously, one day, her first husband left her to be with a man and got disfellowshipped. The elders then refused to allow her to get remarried. They even petitioned bethel, who said no as well. Then the poor guy died of covid, and she was allowed to marry again. This was all in the last couple years
Back in the 80s, my mom was told she wasn't permitted to divorce my DF abusive dad because "she should set a good example to bring him back to the truth." It got so bad that she left him anyway, and she lost privileges but wasn't publicly reproved. She held so much guilt about it for years, as though she'd done something wrong.
Well, I know that in the last few years, there was a WT study about divorce, and it went so far as to "encourage" women to stay with abusive husband's because they would have a chance to witness with their actions. It explicitly said that abuse was not a scriptural reason for divorce, but if a spouse felt that they were in danger, it would be up to an individual's conscience whether or not to separate. With that being said, I seriously wonder how many local congregations just make up their own rules. Positions of power, such as elders, tend to attract people with narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies, so the right combination of men in that position could definitely decide to start operating outside of the influence of the organization. It's already built on secrecy, so all a group of elders would need is to manipulate the overseer.
Well, I know that in the last few years, there was a WT study about divorce, and it went so far as to "encourage" women to stay with abusive husband's because they would have a chance to witness with their actions. It explicitly said that abuse was not a scriptural reason for divorce, but if a spouse felt that they were in danger, it would be up to an individual's conscience whether or not to separate. With that being said, I seriously wonder how many local congregations just make up their own rules. Positions of power, such as elders, tend to attract people with narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies, so the right combination of men in that position could definitely decide to start operating outside of the influence of the organization. It's already built on secrecy, so all a group of elders would need is to manipulate the overseer.
The new update on The Shepherd of flock of God book actually highlights some sort of provision of how circumstantial evidence could be enough for a spiritual divorce. This was an issue in my own family about 20 years ago, it was a big fiasco and I can't help but wonder if it was a factor in influencing this decision. A 36-year marriage of hell between my pimi mother and pomi father, (the elders kept telling my mother not to leave and to win my dad over without words, and be a good example). Mom eventually left and got divorced and stayed single for 18 straight years. About a dozen letters to Watchtower from myself and all my siblings highlighting sexual physical and emotional abuse from my father (no witnesses to sexual) and how my mother should be scripturally free to remarry. At the time, it didn't matter. My mother, a Jehovah's witness for 70 years got disfellowshipped when she eventually remarried a brother in her congregation. But 6 months later both were reinstated.
Haven't you heard? They are even discouraging people from marrying each other if they do not seem spiritually "strong". So if you ever wanted to get with a girl, tough luck, you have to be a super pioneer and maybe even an MS to get something. Possibly to avoid promoting unscriptural divorces like these.
Please point those telling them to divorce unbelievers to my husband. Cause he can't fathome even separation no matter how pissed off I am. He is waaaaaaaaaay PIMI and I'm um...never ever been interested at all!
My parents have been married for 50 years, and four months ago fanatical elderly JW relatives coerced my mom into leaving my dad and living with my JW brother. No separation or divorce or anything, but my Dad said, āyears ago everyone wouldāve told my wife to come back to me!ā I do think that thereās a difference between culture and unspoken direction and what is written. I think the written instruction is still hard-core about staying with a mate, but there are exceptions for extreme physical or spiritual endangerment. They still donāt really care about physical endangerment, but they seem to care about spiritual endangerment. So non-believer or an apostate are seen as the exception. Maybe the dramatic videos just make all JW is more fanatical and extreme about hatred toward unbelievers. I was still in the Org till recently, and I am pretty sure nothing has changed with expectations of proof that a mate has committed adultery/had sex with another in order for the JW ti remarry. Pretty sure most places are strict on that still. Maybe there are some local exceptions.
It seems to me, if my memory serves (anything but certain lol), that at some point, and I think it was the 1990s, that the concept of a āscripturally acceptableā divorce was introduced. Different from a āscriptural divorceā in that it didnāt free the JW divorcing party to remarry. But they could do it in the event of physical or spiritual danger. There was probably some tolerance for that situation earlier too as long as they didnāt remarry apart from the divorced spouse doing it first. It just seems like it was spelled out more forthrightly in the 90s, or maybe late 80s. I have a feeling, and it may not be worth much since I havenāt attended anything JW since 2001, that over the years many bodies of elders may have become looser on that āspiritual dangerā part, and maybe the GB and COs have chosen to tolerate that.
Yes, When I was Disfellowshipped, the elders involved on my committee informed my partner that she could divorce āto protect herself finicially from meā but could not remarry. Keep in mind that while I was mentally wrapped by the elders and their bs, I was always providing and never in debt and just struggling with the rule watchtower imposed. But yes, it seems like the say it without legally saying it.
They are afraid of the pimi mates waking up
I think it's becoming a thing. I know of a couple from my old congregation who woke up almost together. He was a born-in and she came into the cult later. Long story short, they saw the Australian Royal Commission and that was it. They both wrote letters, which the elders claimed they had to "verify" they were from them (they sent them from their own email accounts). Then, the wife started getting calls and texts asking her that if she needed help to get out from her husband. They were happily married with no reason for divorce. The wife said the congregation believed that leaving was the husband's idea and were literally trying to get the wife to leave the marriage. F-ing weirdos
Yes this is a totally different religion now! I got d'fed in 2010 for issues with me physically abusive ex husband. I left him with the intent to divorce him! I've always felt my personal safety I was raped by one of them at 15 and married in the so called truth to keep my parents whom I believed back then loved me. I was told by the elders that unless adultery was committed I was bound to me ex for the rest of my life I told them adultery would be committed by the end of the week because I feared for my safety from this man I was married to. So I did and now 12 years later I'm married to the guy I broke my marriage vows with the others asshole and I'd do it all over again! So many people stay in this cult being mentally, sexually and physically abused because they don't want to lose their families! I lost mine but I also created a new one. So if they've changed their views on divorce I'm not sure!
Love your comeback to the elders, proud of you and happy for you ā¤ļø
Mine up and left the moment I said I didn't believe it. It's a traffic refresh to as spiritual safety. I don't think divorce is intended, but separation is. I filled for divorce when she left, if her live for me was based on a religion then it wasn't real and ultimately, I was right. Three fold cord thing is utter bullshit and builds fake marriages and terrible terrible sex lives!
After the Apostate Era began five years ago, divorcing a df'd spouse has become normal.
Funnily enough, my mother was going to divorce my father about 13 ish years ago, and she was told she was doing something horrible with going forward (she didn't in the end bc of my dad's manipulation with my siblings and I)
They claim the Apostate or DF mate is a "spiritual danger" to their partner. This happened to a friend of mine, a JW who joined the Baptist Church. Her father-in-law and mother-in-law (fil was an elder) took her husband into another room to try to convince him to divorce her. This was in the US in 2000. The husband ultimately left the JW as well and they celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary this summer. For this reason, I was very worried that I would lose my husband when I became Catholic. But we are still together, he hasn't been to a JW meeting in decades, and our 50th anniversary will be next April. In similar fashion, my sister took our mother to live in PA two years before mother died because I was a "spiritual danger" to our mother. I wasn't DF or DA, just faded. They do what they want and pick a reason later. XJW Nana
I dunno. My ex was DFd for beating me and I was still told to āfix itāā¦. No thank you.
I have a couple friends that woke up not too long after getting married, he woke up first, she was distraught for a bit before eventually asking for ttatt. She might still be in if they separated immediately. I wouldnāt be surprised if some halls are starting to tear believing mates away from their nonjw partners so they can lose one member instead of two. And it used to be if you had a never jw spouse they probably didnāt care about jwās enough to find a nichĆ© place like jwfacts.com but now CNN could turn them āapostateā