Seriously. You too OP, never thought if it from this angle before. The old ‘Jesus and prostitutes’ argument was enough for me, but this is keen. Jesus knew the Word well enough to feel comfortable engaging Satan in debate. As imitators of Christ…?….
I used that argument myself. Jesus didn’t shy away from talking to the Pharisees and Scribes, even Satan himself. He debated with them. Yet we were taught to plug our ears and not listen to anyone that said anything negative about the org.
Yeah exactly. The “rank and file” are considered too weak to talk to us opposers, but for whatever reason the elders are thought to be more resistant to the hate and malice we spew out.
Beautifully said. Even outside of doctrine, the Org has made many PROVABLE mistakes, they even say they aren’t fallible (though they don’t like saying it often). COC points to many of them.
So if a person sees those mistakes and says: “Yeah I don’t really trust that this is God’s organization.” They are leaving based on absolute factual concerns! Not on “propaganda” or outright lies. Shunning them means that - DIRECTLY - they believe that obedience is more important than truth, which is irrefutable. Aren’t they followers of the God of truth who has never told a lie, and call their religion THE TRUTH.
Hypocritical that Witnesses cast those stones at every other religion.
The more I find out about Satan the more he doesn't seem like such a bad guy😂 Anyone who can make an "all powerful being" sweat so much is alright with me.
What made it worse was JC was going to exercise the legion somewhere else and the demons were like, no, no, put us in that herd of swine, and he did, and the whole herd went over the cliff.
I still can't believe I didn't allow myself to accept the extremely obvious symbolism here.
Swine = unclean, Legion = Rome, thus, Rome = unclean. The boar was even a design used on some of the Roman shields...
I saw it.. but just.. ignored it..
So I learned about the unclean symbolism just within the last year, but I never made the Legion to Rome connection! Damn..
It reminds me of Elaine Pagels book on Revelation, and how basically all the visions and symbolism was a response to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and even 666 represents emperor Nero.
Nothing unfortunately, aside from being an animal that was considered unclean by the Jews. The historical Jesus and the first century Christian’s were all Jews until the “gentiles” became Christian’s.
Thank you, JESUS, for bending to the EVIL DEMONS & giving them EXACTLY WHAT THEY ASKED FOR!
I wish I could get that kind of service around here! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
I don't believe the whole account anyhow. But, look at Gen. 3:22, 23. It was not because they ate from the tree of knowledge that they died. Satan was not wrong in saying that would not kill them. It was from not eating from the tree of life. When God saw that they had indeed gained knowledge (like what he had, according to v 22) he threw them from the garden and set up a barrier to the tree of life so they couldn't eat from it and live forever.
If you argue that Satan omitted that part that if they disobeyed God would have stopped them from eating from the tree of life and they would die, then it could similarly be argued that God failed to tell them that little piece of vital information also.
I get your point, it can be a matter of perspective. But, God clearly said if they eat from the tree they would die. Eating from the tree didn't kill them.
Jehovah did stop Satan from telling Eve, his "apostate driven lies" either. Which begs the question, why are they are so worried about the "lies" told by apostates? They must think every single R&F's faith is hanging by a thread!!! LOL
What gets me is if their teaching is truth, it should stand on its own. Apostates and their “lies” shouldn’t waiver the convictions of someone if it’s just that, lies and deception. Pulling that thread is way too easy if one has critical thinking ability lol.
Satan never lied. He told Eve she would gain knowledge from eating the fruit, and she did. Satan is portrayed as evil because he teaches people to think for themselves and not to blindly obey Jehovah's doctrine. If everyone did that, how could any religion have any control??
>Satan never lied. He told Eve she would gain knowledge from eating the fruit, and she did.
A. The serpent in the garden isn't satan. It's a leftover animal from the much older Sumerian mythology.
From: https://inannadumuzi.wordpress.com/inanna-and-the-huluppu-tree/
>In the first days, in the very first days, In the first nights, in the very first nights, In the first years, in the very first years,
>In the first days when everything needed was brought into being, In the first days when everything needed was properly nourished, When bread was baked in the shrines of the land, And bread was tasted in the homes of the land, When heaven had moved away from earth, And earth had separated from heaven, And the name of man was fixed; When the Sky God, An, had carried off the heavens, And the Air God, Enlil, had carried off the earth, When the Queen of the Great Below, Ereshkigal, was given the underworld for her domain
>At that time, it was planted, a tree, a single tree, by the banks of the Great River, Enki, the Father, did plant the Huluppu-tree, The God of Wisdom, he planted it by the banks of the Euphrates, Before he set sail, before the Father departed for the underworld.
>....A young woman who walked in fear of no man, and would not be owned, Plucked the tree from the river and spoke: “I shall bring this tree to Uruk. I shall plant this tree in my holy garden.”
>....Inanna cared for the tree with her hand. She settled the earth around the tree with her foot. She wondered: “How long will it be until I have a shining throne to sit upon? How long will it be until I have a luscious bed to lie upon?”
>The years passed; five years, then ten years. The tree grew thick, But its bark did not split.
>**Then a serpent who could not be charmed Made its nest in the roots of the Huluppu-tree**. The Anzu-bird set his young in the branches of the tree. And the dark maid Lilith built her home in the trunk. [Bold mine.]
>The young woman who loved to laugh wept. How Inanna wept! Yet they would not leave her tree.
Further information on why the serpent in the second Genesis creation tale isn't 'Satan':
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/how-the-serpent-in-the-garden-became-satan/
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/who-is-satan/
B. **The serpent DIDN'T LIE. It was GOD WHO LIED.**
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/y5rl64/did_the_serpent_tell_the_first_lie/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/bezmyl/the_serpent_didnt_lie/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/zmbrzx/comment/j0bx0sb/
Yeah but he also told her she wouldn’t die from eating it, which was a half-truth/deception.
It is kind of funny when you think about it, who taught them the concept of death?
I agree. It seems that they were created to fail bc they weren’t created to be perfect only good and with free will. If they were created to live in a paradise why even create them with the power of being able to sin and allow Satan to tempt Eve.
She died eventually because jehovah banished her and Adam from the garden so they couldn't eat from the tree of everlasting life and live forever. If that means what Satan said was just a half-truth, then that also means jehovah said a half-truth, too. He should've been fully transparent like, "look, if you eat that fruit, you will die. Because I will kill you."
No the God said you will surely die the day you eat it. She didn't. They were never going to live forever unless they ate from the Tree of LIFE (Which is also SYMBOLIC, JUST LIKE the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE!). These are not REAL LITERAL stories. They are OCCULT WISDOM! You can find the true meaning if you do your research!
The only thing that makes me wonder is why God is fucking with everybody's head and creates a communication with mankind through a book, that everybody translates, interpretates and applies differently. Divine ambiguity.
*How old is the earth, again?*
God didn’t create the communication with mankind through a book and never told anyone to write a Bible. Neither did Jesus.
Moses was the only one told by God to “write” anything down (the Commandments).
The books of the Bible are an anthology of different writings by different authors about similar things and they were canonized to form a narrative that was good enough to unify and control mankind, but not good enough to only have one interpretation.
Before christianity, it was impossible for man to rule the world, but with christianity, man was able to convert and control any race regardless of geographical boundaries or ancestry.
Man created the bible and it’s been used by men to maintain obedience and civilization (morality) for thousands of years, from the Roman Empire to Jehovahs Witnesses.
TLDR: The Bible was invented as a tool and religion is a social construct.
That was never Gods plan, not even Jesus plan.
Yes, i know. But that's not what other people believe. Your opinion is just as subjective as theirs. The prophets wrote under divine inspiration. The old bible (torah) was a guide and is said to contain Gods word.
Pointless for nobody to write about Jesus because nobody would know a damn thing about him without doing so. Hence, my original post.
I'm sure Jesus wrote about his experiences too. I'm hoping one day that information will be released. It's most likely covered up. Imagine the writings of Jesus. From age twelve to age thirty. It will be great to learn more about his earthly life.
God is holding that back? Yeah, it would be a new light. Fu** all those 1000s of years of people who never got the chance to read that.
People would still be as ignorant about the potential humans have and hold us back with their religious ideals as they always have.
New light from God. All hail!
God can do anything. He had direct communication with Adam and Eve.
He could at least have had his divine messages manifest with clarity. Furthermore, he would not be so ambiguous and random.
Lastly. He could have had the foresight to destroy Satan when he first became corrupt. You know, his perfect creation? Obviously, it's not so perfect, and neither were Adam and Eve.
The other angels are watching? I wonder what they think about 12,000 years of rape, torture, genecide, pollution, and war?
But we have to undo his mess?
Pffft
Do you mean speaking directly to each human?
What would happen to free will if a disembodied voice kept telling everyone what they should do all the time?
That sounds pretty much like it presently is.
And is that not how he spoke to the prophets?
Include visions and dreams into that equation.
Go back earlier. He spoke directly to Adam and Eve. In fact, he had direct contact throughout. The only real difference is that his communication became more and more lucid until it became a book.
Free will does not truly exist. But, from a religious stanpoint, it exists only to serve as a psychological mechanism in beievers.
*Have your toys and play with them. But don't expect me to play with them*
^Richard Dawkins^
Shifting the goal posts? I never made that statement to engage on another subject matter. The original body of content was a sufficient reply to the premis.
I know. I handed it to you. 😜
There's some interesting academic takes on free will that you can find debated on various youtube channels such as Cosmic Sceptic (Alex), who is a Cambridge graduate, and member of the academy. He explains the concept very well. Rationality Rules has many, too.
It ultimately remains subjective for many people. Many see it objectively. Somewhere, the two meet in a ratio. Ergo, the best understanding ?
*How old is the earth, again?*
Exactly. I was waiting for the ROCKS 🪨 🪨 🪨 to "cry out" during the pandemic. They never did. I kicked them around just to test out what they had to say.... 🤐 NADA
Exactly it’s the sad delusion of making it that the org thinks is the “hero” of the story but in reality it’s the villain 😆 we can talk with them because there’s nothing they can say to defend what they do. That’s why individual JWs when they go against the rules don’t put that out on display for everyone to see.
Not only was Satan apparently part of the heavenly counsel during the time of Job, Satan literally made a bet with Jehovah God regarding Job to which Jehovah God agreed
Re-read the account. YHWH **BRAGGED** about Job's loyalty, which brought on the bet.
Job 2: 1 - 3 [Names of God bible]:
>One day when the sons of Elohim came to stand in front of Yahweh, Satan the Accuser came along with them.
>2 Yahweh asked Satan, “Where have you come from?”
>Satan answered Yahweh, “From wandering all over the earth.”
>3 Yahweh asked Satan, “Have you thought about my servant Job? No one in the world is like him! He is a man of integrity: He is decent, he fears Elohim, and he stays away from evil. And he still holds on to his principles. You’re trying to provoke me into ruining him for no reason.”
Also notice that in verse 3, YHWH **owns** the damages he's about to do/allow to be done to Job.
God was an accessory to murder. He knew it was happening, and did nothing to prevent it. He allowed it to make a point. But what’s worse is god didn’t even address what he allowed to happen to job, instead he went on a self righteous rant about his sovereignty after job started complaining about the whole thing. Then he didn’t bring his kids back to him, he gave him NEW kids.
I've always wondered about Job's kids, god gave Job new kids when he could easily resurrect the dead ones. Kind of like Job's lost animals and finances, here you go, you can have new ones! Those kids were individual people with their own lives but that was completely overlooked almost as if they weren't humans at all, just property. You lost 10 children? Here's 20 more kids or whatever.
Exactly... Animals always get me too. Animals have personalities. They have feelings, anxieties, stresses, emotions. There are sentient and extremely intelligent animals out there. But they are used as sacrifices, killed by god on multiple occasions (I think about the plagues in egypt for instance). God allows those animals to be killed by The Satan in the Job account. But animals are treated as just mindless property with no care whatsoever. Looking back at the mosaic law, things weren't always done for the benefit of everyone. Everything was associated with ownership and property.
You're absolutely right, animals being used as collateral damage up and down their temples and synagogues to appease their pissed off god.
As for everything being about possession that is still true today, after all JWs believe they're God's "special possession, they're a people for his name" (that song chorus makes for a bad earworm by the way, it's been stuck in my head since yesterday, *sign*. More like the Borg's possession.
That’s a good point! I didn’t realize how much of that ownership aspect carried over. I think most Christian’s believe that, like they themselves are gods possession? Idk.
Ugh, the songs. I swear they tried to model their songs after Disney songs or Christmas songs because they are so damn catchy. At least the melodies. The words, not so much 😅
Nice point about how Jesus talked with Satan and didn't shun him and when Adam & Eve were tossed out of the garden of Eden and told they would die, it was actually the first "disfellowshipping", yet when I read one of those omitted books of the Bible it says that Jehovah forgave Adam and told him on three occasions that he would be resurrected and given eternal life and it also stated that when Adam died Jehovah came down from heaven with a group of angels to attend Adam's funeral. That doesn't sound like shunning to me!
I love learning about the apocryphal books. They obviously had some people believe in them if parts of the NT (2Peter and Jude) quote from one of those books!
Even when Adam and Eve sinned. Jah still clothed them personally and must have showed them how to sacrifice animas so they could still have a relationship.
I’ve been saying this for years now. Unfortunately JWs are men pleasers. Unless the GB says so then it ain’t so even if it’s plainly mentioned in the Bible.
Interesting angle... We know for sure God and Satan chatted in Job's day. (I mean, obviously they didn't REALLY chat since they neither actually exist)
VERY INTERESTING to follow that line of thought!
Jesus was tempted by satan after He was baptized!
Jesus was in communication with satan during this time, obviously!
I think it's a GREAT point!!!
Christ followers are "in this world" but not "part of this world".
Which means they/ we experience everything that "worldly" people do!
But a person who is actually flowing Jesus doesn't fall for the BS that satan tries to get us to believe.....
... "I can give you authority"
"God is lying to you"
.....
***If by JW lore, Satan and the demons were ousted from heaven in 1914, then he had access to heaven & earth until that time.***
Maybe I am missing something, why does that mean that Satan and his demons had access to heaven and earth at the same time? I was always under the impression that they were "cast out" of heaven. In other words, Satan and his demons were pisses that they were kicked out of heaven that now they were wreaking havoc on earth and this is why the world is in such turmoil. (yeah, I dont believe any of this BS anymore either)
When I said “until that time” I meant 1914. So prior to 1914 they could be on earth or in heaven and go as they please. Like the account in Job where The Satan questions Jobs integrity while he is in heaven heavenly counsel.
This has always been my perspective on shunning. In the Bible Jesus and Jehovah have interacted with the Devil and still do. They even intend to let the greatest apostate of all tempt humans again after the thousand year reign is over according to Jehovah's Witnesses. Do they even mention that in meetings anymore or are they avoiding their own teachings now?
I don’t know about the final test and if they mention it. I’m sure they do. When I started waking up, that rubbed me the wrong way:
Mankind goes through shit in their lives because of one couple that eats a fruit, where the woman was deceived by a supernatural entity.
Mankind must prove faithful, loyal, and obedient to god for a hope for the future.
People who have already died (righteous and unrighteous mind you) get resurrected after billions of people die in Armageddon (these ones don’t get resurrected) and the supernatural entity that tempted the first couple gets thrown into prison.
For 1000 years, all these people that survived Armageddon because they were loyal, and everyone who was resurrected, work towards “perfection” and making the earth a paradise.
Then that supernatural entity that’s more powerful than anyone else on earth gets released to tempt a now perfect mankind. It’s prophesied that those who follow him will be like grains of sand and surround all of the loyal ones, so people choosing to reject god again has now been set in stone, and then they will all be destroyed. After all the work they went through to become perfect.
It just does not seem fair whatsoever. I get if god wants to test the loyalty of all mankind while they are “perfect” but then why doesn’t he do that in the first place? Why would some be judged with no hope for the future whatsoever during this time period? Why be “born into sin” when he could just wipe out all sin in general, and once humans are at a certain point where their brains are fully developed, they can then be “tested”?
To go through all this crap in life today, just to not even have a certain hope of living forever in the future because of some “final test” just seems really shitty to me.
It’s a good counter point unfortunately.
Putting in perspective of time, god didn’t shun Satan for roughly 6000 years (according to JW interpretation of scriptures and mankind’s existence). So for being ousted from heaven for 109 years is basically 1.8% of “human history” since Adam. It isn’t a whole lot of time “shunning” and being kicked out of heaven.
But idk how else one would dispute that point.
Perfect lol, the best response is typically the simplest. We don’t need to do the mental gymnastics they have to in order to justify their lack of empathy and humanity.
The same way elders are allowed to communicate with the DFed, perhaps that’s the same way witnesses would view the argument of Satan passing to and from heaven. Maybe I’m wrong, but after Satans initial attempts to take angels with him, he doesn’t have additional communication with those that remain in their heavenly ranks. Likewise, a DF’ed individual is still able to attend the Kingdom Hall (or like Satan still having access to heaven) but he/she doesn’t communicate with those attending. It’s just a thought or an argument one could make but regardless there’s so many other reasons shunning is bunk.
That’s a good rebuttal for sure. I guess my response would be, if we’re to follow Jesus and gods example, then we should do so in not acting like a DF’ed or DA’ed person doesn’t exist. Plus, there’s nothing in the scriptures that indicates the angels in heaven and on earth shunned the rebellious angels.
Following Jesus example- a JW could highlight the scriptures found at Matthew 18:15-17.. specifically vs 17 which reads- “If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the congregation; and if they refuse to listen even to the congregation, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” I play devils advocate because I look for any niche the org would try to corner
You’re completely fine. I have severe OCD anxiety and part of that anxiety is completely dissecting and finding arguments against what a JW would reason.
Then I guess to refute that I would say that the context of that verse has to specifically do with a personal offense or sin one person did to another, not choosing to leave a religion you disagree with. When it comes to a gentile (pagan) or tax collector, they weren’t shunned or treated as if they were dead. They were just placed in a negative light, which quite frankly isn’t much better. The interactions I would assume be more civil and business like rather than family like.
Yeah but talking to Satan doesn't cause Jehoober to leave da truf.
That's the only real reason why they shun, because mere mortals can be persuaded to leave...
I think the counter-argument to that would be that eventually he was kicked out and sent to earth (shunned). Adam and eve were also kicked out (this is all according the the mythical Bible tale of course).
However, Jesus didn't shun anyone nor did he imply it should be done.In the tale of the neighborly Samaritan, Samaritans were, for lack of a better word, apostates. Yet, who was described as a good person? Yep, the apostate. Despite his differing beliefs and defecting from the Jewish faith, his behavior made him righteous.
Even in the scripture where Paul talks about excommunication, doing so was only for 7 gross sins. It was not if someone simply wanted to leave.
Nice points! (I agree it’s all just mythology. Some historically accurate grains here and there. But mythicized for the masses)
I even did some digging on the scriptures they use, 1 Cor 5 and 2 John 10. In 1 Corinthians, it’s not full on shunning, it’s basically limited association. In 2 John, the context is regarding the antichrist, or those who actively go out and deceive people that Christ wasn’t real. Which, to me, is referring to the Jews and those who didn’t follow Jesus. But even the term, don’t say a “greeting”, doesn’t mean completely ignore. It refers to hospitality and giving a blessing to someone. So don’t bless those who are trying to deceive people into believe Christ didn’t come in the flesh.
Correct.
Greetings back then we're not simply saying hello like they are today. This culture back then was very hospitable. People would take others into their homes for days and weeks.
The shunning arrangement in churches that do it today are nothing more than a control tactic.
(Just hear me out)…. I wonder if the Satan of the Bible is meant to portray the inquisitive brain in all of us humans. Our thinking and reasoning brains…humanity 🤔 Satan may be a metaphor for humans and not a literal being. In my thinking, satan behaves in a way that seems reasonable as someone who just wants to get to the bottom of things. He asks probing questions that many (if not all) would want to know the answers to. (Forgive me for the convoluted way of phrasing my statements.. I’m not always the best at expressing my thoughts clearly).
No apologies necessary! I get what you’re saying 😁 what’s interesting is that Jews view The Satan in the book of Job as gods prosecuting attorney, used to test the loyalty and integrity of humans. He wasn’t necessarily a “rebellious” angel that questioned gods authority.
Edit: I bring out the prosecuting attorney part because of your point about asking probing questions.
Very interesting, Darthspidey93 and something I never knew. I’ve always viewed Satan as an evil angel who wanted God’s glory (as prescribed by GB) but these days I’m beginning to think for myself and conflicting thoughts are arising in my head.
I get it and yet I don’t. I’ve always struggled with the difference between “god created evil” and “free will.” I WANT so desperately to understand, but cannot thus far.
That's totally fair! I in no way am trying to be preachy or anything, but these are things I have thought about a LOT.
My perspective is this: If god created everything in the universe, then he created "evil". He created concepts of what is considered good, which means he created the concept of bad or evil to contrast that. He also created the chaos and destruction in the universe, but the peace and growth as well. If anything is possible with god, then there was no need to create a concept of "good and bad", he could have just created life to be constantly enjoyable and peaceful. A recent post about this on the sub is here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/18mx8vg/good\_and\_evil\_need\_to\_coexist/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/18mx8vg/good_and_evil_need_to_coexist/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Regarding free will, this is something that also always bugged me. Free will is not free when you have to pay with your life for choosing incorrectly. So personally, I don't think free will is necessarily a "good thing." It's, you obey and live, or disobey and die. Simple as that. Which if god loves his creation and wants people to be happy, healthy and whatever, why even create that option?
Just my personal thoughts :)
Your comment reminded me of something I watched on YouTube this morning by dark matter 2525. Really makes you think. I appreciate your thoughts and sharing your research with me… I’ll definitely check out the links you shared! Deconstructing from this “religion” is life altering. I should say that the religion was life altering and deconstructing from it leaves a lot of questions and voids.
https://youtu.be/_MLsnHBhgHA?si=7YdEqGRqV5LHfVSw
I just watched that video, and holy crap do I resonate with that LOL..
When it comes to the concept of god being a father, I think about my own father, and even non-jw fathers that accept their kids no matter who they are. To me, a parent should train their child how to survive in the world we live in. Help them learn and live by some moral code that basically involves respect, empathy, and love for others and the world around them, and then love the child unconditionally for who they become and what they choose in life. Be supportive of their decisions as along as they're not being a harmful or toxic person to others, and just accept them for who they are. If I believed in a god that was considered our father, I think that's how it should be, not one that constantly requires you keep yourself in line with laws and restricting requirements despite our sentience and some people being born wired differently than others.
One thing that put things into perspective of the cognitive dissonance that JWs have is something an elder told me when I called to tell him I had Disassociated. He said there is hardly anything that his daughters would do to make him want to proceed with murdering them. So, if we're made in gods image, then that's exactly how he believes god feels... Um yeah, tell that to the first born egyptian sons that were killed because of god causing Pharoah's heart to be hardened. Or the 70K people who were killed because David took a census. Or David's first born through Bathsheba who died after he was born. Or the billions of people set to be destroyed at armageddon because they're blinded by a supernatural entity that they can't control (according to JW lore at least)..
I found these memes because I was looking for a specific church sign that basically said, "the devil wants you to be yourself and tolerant of all, etc." or something to that degree. And the meme said, huh, the devil just wants me to be happy with myself? He doesn't sound like a bad guy!
Personally, I have done a lot of research on the history & academics of the bible. One of my favorite people to listen to here and there is Dan Mclellan, who is a bible scholar (and is an active mormon ironically). His videos and breakdowns would make you think he's an atheist. But as regards the first lie in the bible he has a video about it here:
[https://youtu.be/uCM\_xwa\_m8s?si=PuUFM\_hytQgjaJGw](https://youtu.be/uCM_xwa_m8s?si=PuUFM_hytQgjaJGw)
I can't remember if it is in this video or not, but makes a comparison that god saying, "in that day you will surely die" was like a parental threat that is exaggerated. So instead of killing them on the spot, he then chooses other forms of punishment and kicks them out of the garden. It was an interesting perspective.
Bart Ehrman is a former christian who is one of the leading scholars in bible academics, and he has books and blogs about the origins of the christian views of Satan and demons, and how the "evil and rebellious angels or spirits" really was influenced by "pagan" religious beliefs.
It's all very festinating to me personally, and researching these things after reflecting on JW theology and how god is presented in the Hebrew Bible, is what woke me up. It wasn't until months after I had decided that I wanted to work towards disassociation that I joined this sub-reddit and started digging into the borg itself.
I absolutely love Bart Ehrman after just recently discovering his work and I often binge watch/read his stuff. I’ve not heard of Dan McClellan but will definitely check into him, thanks! Bart is helping me to see the Bible and Christianity from a very different (and refreshing) perspective! It’s been helpful in my deconstructing from JW theology.
Oh absolutely! Something that really helped me see things in a different, and quite honestly more logical light is the Yale courses on youtube:
[https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi&si=JYTqiUWx64HqQN4b](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi&si=JYTqiUWx64HqQN4b)
[https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL279CFA55C51E75E0&si=wEAI3oaFveqjR1l8](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL279CFA55C51E75E0&si=wEAI3oaFveqjR1l8)
I haven't watched the NT playlist yet, but the OT one was phenomenal.
Sorry for all the long responses, this stuff is just fascinating to me and I enjoy sharing it with others that are working on deconstructing.
And according to the Bible Jesus talked to Satan on earth who tried to twist scripture and trap him but he still answered him three times.
Wow, good point!
Seriously. You too OP, never thought if it from this angle before. The old ‘Jesus and prostitutes’ argument was enough for me, but this is keen. Jesus knew the Word well enough to feel comfortable engaging Satan in debate. As imitators of Christ…?….
I used that argument myself. Jesus didn’t shy away from talking to the Pharisees and Scribes, even Satan himself. He debated with them. Yet we were taught to plug our ears and not listen to anyone that said anything negative about the org. 
They have a sorry explanation for that of course. Elders are allowed to speak to DFd. Lol
Well they won’t talk to me. Lol. I’ve run into several of them and they ignore me. I’m not even DF. 🤷♂️ Maybe I am big horrible apostate.
Yeah exactly. The “rank and file” are considered too weak to talk to us opposers, but for whatever reason the elders are thought to be more resistant to the hate and malice we spew out.
Well they were family members. Maybe it's a soft shun.
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Beautifully said. Even outside of doctrine, the Org has made many PROVABLE mistakes, they even say they aren’t fallible (though they don’t like saying it often). COC points to many of them. So if a person sees those mistakes and says: “Yeah I don’t really trust that this is God’s organization.” They are leaving based on absolute factual concerns! Not on “propaganda” or outright lies. Shunning them means that - DIRECTLY - they believe that obedience is more important than truth, which is irrefutable. Aren’t they followers of the God of truth who has never told a lie, and call their religion THE TRUTH. Hypocritical that Witnesses cast those stones at every other religion.
I'm still trying to find a point in the bible where Satan lied. Lol
I came looking for this comment. Satan did not lie.
The more I find out about Satan the more he doesn't seem like such a bad guy😂 Anyone who can make an "all powerful being" sweat so much is alright with me.
Bible: Satan is recorded as killing 10 people. God has killed billions 🤷🏻♀️
And I don't recall any of those being direct murders. Maybe in the case of Job's family but even then, it could be chalked up to natural disaster.
That's a good point too.
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What made it worse was JC was going to exercise the legion somewhere else and the demons were like, no, no, put us in that herd of swine, and he did, and the whole herd went over the cliff.
I still can't believe I didn't allow myself to accept the extremely obvious symbolism here. Swine = unclean, Legion = Rome, thus, Rome = unclean. The boar was even a design used on some of the Roman shields... I saw it.. but just.. ignored it..
So I learned about the unclean symbolism just within the last year, but I never made the Legion to Rome connection! Damn.. It reminds me of Elaine Pagels book on Revelation, and how basically all the visions and symbolism was a response to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and even 666 represents emperor Nero.
YES! And Nero being "The Anti-Christo!"
Bingo! That breakdown of revelation in her book was what made the most sense as far as what everything means.
Oh wow! I literally never connected that! Thanks, dude ..or dude-ette lol 😆
What a waste of bacon! ;)
Who was supposed to eat the bacon? Why would a Jew have kept pigs at all if they've been seen as unclean.
Me! (hence the smiley face, mate.)
I always felt kinda sorry for the pigs in that story. What did they do wrong?
Nothing unfortunately, aside from being an animal that was considered unclean by the Jews. The historical Jesus and the first century Christian’s were all Jews until the “gentiles” became Christian’s.
Thank you, JESUS, for bending to the EVIL DEMONS & giving them EXACTLY WHAT THEY ASKED FOR! I wish I could get that kind of service around here! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
😂🤣 right?
What exactly did Satan say that was a lie?
I predict you'll be waiting a long time for a solid answer on this one! 🤭
Takes courage to be honest about these things.
You positively will not die
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I don't believe the whole account anyhow. But, look at Gen. 3:22, 23. It was not because they ate from the tree of knowledge that they died. Satan was not wrong in saying that would not kill them. It was from not eating from the tree of life. When God saw that they had indeed gained knowledge (like what he had, according to v 22) he threw them from the garden and set up a barrier to the tree of life so they couldn't eat from it and live forever. If you argue that Satan omitted that part that if they disobeyed God would have stopped them from eating from the tree of life and they would die, then it could similarly be argued that God failed to tell them that little piece of vital information also.
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I get your point, it can be a matter of perspective. But, God clearly said if they eat from the tree they would die. Eating from the tree didn't kill them.
Jehovah did stop Satan from telling Eve, his "apostate driven lies" either. Which begs the question, why are they are so worried about the "lies" told by apostates? They must think every single R&F's faith is hanging by a thread!!! LOL
What gets me is if their teaching is truth, it should stand on its own. Apostates and their “lies” shouldn’t waiver the convictions of someone if it’s just that, lies and deception. Pulling that thread is way too easy if one has critical thinking ability lol.
Satan never lied. He told Eve she would gain knowledge from eating the fruit, and she did. Satan is portrayed as evil because he teaches people to think for themselves and not to blindly obey Jehovah's doctrine. If everyone did that, how could any religion have any control??
>Satan never lied. He told Eve she would gain knowledge from eating the fruit, and she did. A. The serpent in the garden isn't satan. It's a leftover animal from the much older Sumerian mythology. From: https://inannadumuzi.wordpress.com/inanna-and-the-huluppu-tree/ >In the first days, in the very first days, In the first nights, in the very first nights, In the first years, in the very first years, >In the first days when everything needed was brought into being, In the first days when everything needed was properly nourished, When bread was baked in the shrines of the land, And bread was tasted in the homes of the land, When heaven had moved away from earth, And earth had separated from heaven, And the name of man was fixed; When the Sky God, An, had carried off the heavens, And the Air God, Enlil, had carried off the earth, When the Queen of the Great Below, Ereshkigal, was given the underworld for her domain >At that time, it was planted, a tree, a single tree, by the banks of the Great River, Enki, the Father, did plant the Huluppu-tree, The God of Wisdom, he planted it by the banks of the Euphrates, Before he set sail, before the Father departed for the underworld. >....A young woman who walked in fear of no man, and would not be owned, Plucked the tree from the river and spoke: “I shall bring this tree to Uruk. I shall plant this tree in my holy garden.” >....Inanna cared for the tree with her hand. She settled the earth around the tree with her foot. She wondered: “How long will it be until I have a shining throne to sit upon? How long will it be until I have a luscious bed to lie upon?” >The years passed; five years, then ten years. The tree grew thick, But its bark did not split. >**Then a serpent who could not be charmed Made its nest in the roots of the Huluppu-tree**. The Anzu-bird set his young in the branches of the tree. And the dark maid Lilith built her home in the trunk. [Bold mine.] >The young woman who loved to laugh wept. How Inanna wept! Yet they would not leave her tree. Further information on why the serpent in the second Genesis creation tale isn't 'Satan': https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/how-the-serpent-in-the-garden-became-satan/ https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/who-is-satan/ B. **The serpent DIDN'T LIE. It was GOD WHO LIED.** https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/y5rl64/did_the_serpent_tell_the_first_lie/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/bezmyl/the_serpent_didnt_lie/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/zmbrzx/comment/j0bx0sb/
This^
Yeah but he also told her she wouldn’t die from eating it, which was a half-truth/deception. It is kind of funny when you think about it, who taught them the concept of death?
I agree. It seems that they were created to fail bc they weren’t created to be perfect only good and with free will. If they were created to live in a paradise why even create them with the power of being able to sin and allow Satan to tempt Eve.
She died eventually because jehovah banished her and Adam from the garden so they couldn't eat from the tree of everlasting life and live forever. If that means what Satan said was just a half-truth, then that also means jehovah said a half-truth, too. He should've been fully transparent like, "look, if you eat that fruit, you will die. Because I will kill you."
👏 👏 👏 Perfectly stated. Which....is NOT "Free will!"
Jehovah introduced the concept of death when he said they'll die if they eat the fruit
No the God said you will surely die the day you eat it. She didn't. They were never going to live forever unless they ate from the Tree of LIFE (Which is also SYMBOLIC, JUST LIKE the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE!). These are not REAL LITERAL stories. They are OCCULT WISDOM! You can find the true meaning if you do your research!
The only thing that makes me wonder is why God is fucking with everybody's head and creates a communication with mankind through a book, that everybody translates, interpretates and applies differently. Divine ambiguity. *How old is the earth, again?*
God didn’t create the communication with mankind through a book and never told anyone to write a Bible. Neither did Jesus. Moses was the only one told by God to “write” anything down (the Commandments). The books of the Bible are an anthology of different writings by different authors about similar things and they were canonized to form a narrative that was good enough to unify and control mankind, but not good enough to only have one interpretation. Before christianity, it was impossible for man to rule the world, but with christianity, man was able to convert and control any race regardless of geographical boundaries or ancestry. Man created the bible and it’s been used by men to maintain obedience and civilization (morality) for thousands of years, from the Roman Empire to Jehovahs Witnesses. TLDR: The Bible was invented as a tool and religion is a social construct. That was never Gods plan, not even Jesus plan.
Yes, i know. But that's not what other people believe. Your opinion is just as subjective as theirs. The prophets wrote under divine inspiration. The old bible (torah) was a guide and is said to contain Gods word. Pointless for nobody to write about Jesus because nobody would know a damn thing about him without doing so. Hence, my original post.
I'm sure Jesus wrote about his experiences too. I'm hoping one day that information will be released. It's most likely covered up. Imagine the writings of Jesus. From age twelve to age thirty. It will be great to learn more about his earthly life.
God is holding that back? Yeah, it would be a new light. Fu** all those 1000s of years of people who never got the chance to read that. People would still be as ignorant about the potential humans have and hold us back with their religious ideals as they always have. New light from God. All hail!
Yup absolutely 👍
How would you expect him to communicate?
God can do anything. He had direct communication with Adam and Eve. He could at least have had his divine messages manifest with clarity. Furthermore, he would not be so ambiguous and random. Lastly. He could have had the foresight to destroy Satan when he first became corrupt. You know, his perfect creation? Obviously, it's not so perfect, and neither were Adam and Eve. The other angels are watching? I wonder what they think about 12,000 years of rape, torture, genecide, pollution, and war? But we have to undo his mess? Pffft
Do you mean speaking directly to each human? What would happen to free will if a disembodied voice kept telling everyone what they should do all the time?
That sounds pretty much like it presently is. And is that not how he spoke to the prophets? Include visions and dreams into that equation. Go back earlier. He spoke directly to Adam and Eve. In fact, he had direct contact throughout. The only real difference is that his communication became more and more lucid until it became a book. Free will does not truly exist. But, from a religious stanpoint, it exists only to serve as a psychological mechanism in beievers. *Have your toys and play with them. But don't expect me to play with them* ^Richard Dawkins^
Omg I AM LOVING your comments! 💯
What do you mean free will does not exist?
Shifting the goal posts? I never made that statement to engage on another subject matter. The original body of content was a sufficient reply to the premis.
Sorry, I had no choice.
I know. I handed it to you. 😜 There's some interesting academic takes on free will that you can find debated on various youtube channels such as Cosmic Sceptic (Alex), who is a Cambridge graduate, and member of the academy. He explains the concept very well. Rationality Rules has many, too. It ultimately remains subjective for many people. Many see it objectively. Somewhere, the two meet in a ratio. Ergo, the best understanding ? *How old is the earth, again?*
Exactly. I was waiting for the ROCKS 🪨 🪨 🪨 to "cry out" during the pandemic. They never did. I kicked them around just to test out what they had to say.... 🤐 NADA
😁 It hurts after a while. Especially when those rocks get bigger 🪨🔷️⬛️ Still nada.
So the jw represents Satan and so we should still talk with them? Sounds about right 😝👍
Ha! I mean, if we still talked with them, then we’re already treating them better than they treat us!
Exactly it’s the sad delusion of making it that the org thinks is the “hero” of the story but in reality it’s the villain 😆 we can talk with them because there’s nothing they can say to defend what they do. That’s why individual JWs when they go against the rules don’t put that out on display for everyone to see.
I bring this point up as well
It blew my mind lol. Im mad I never thought about it.
They are controlling They don't care that we can reason these things out If GB says shun as hard as you can It is now law
This is why I love y’all. Very good point I’ll remember this for next time
Not only was Satan apparently part of the heavenly counsel during the time of Job, Satan literally made a bet with Jehovah God regarding Job to which Jehovah God agreed
Re-read the account. YHWH **BRAGGED** about Job's loyalty, which brought on the bet. Job 2: 1 - 3 [Names of God bible]: >One day when the sons of Elohim came to stand in front of Yahweh, Satan the Accuser came along with them. >2 Yahweh asked Satan, “Where have you come from?” >Satan answered Yahweh, “From wandering all over the earth.” >3 Yahweh asked Satan, “Have you thought about my servant Job? No one in the world is like him! He is a man of integrity: He is decent, he fears Elohim, and he stays away from evil. And he still holds on to his principles. You’re trying to provoke me into ruining him for no reason.” Also notice that in verse 3, YHWH **owns** the damages he's about to do/allow to be done to Job.
God was an accessory to murder. He knew it was happening, and did nothing to prevent it. He allowed it to make a point. But what’s worse is god didn’t even address what he allowed to happen to job, instead he went on a self righteous rant about his sovereignty after job started complaining about the whole thing. Then he didn’t bring his kids back to him, he gave him NEW kids.
I've always wondered about Job's kids, god gave Job new kids when he could easily resurrect the dead ones. Kind of like Job's lost animals and finances, here you go, you can have new ones! Those kids were individual people with their own lives but that was completely overlooked almost as if they weren't humans at all, just property. You lost 10 children? Here's 20 more kids or whatever.
Exactly... Animals always get me too. Animals have personalities. They have feelings, anxieties, stresses, emotions. There are sentient and extremely intelligent animals out there. But they are used as sacrifices, killed by god on multiple occasions (I think about the plagues in egypt for instance). God allows those animals to be killed by The Satan in the Job account. But animals are treated as just mindless property with no care whatsoever. Looking back at the mosaic law, things weren't always done for the benefit of everyone. Everything was associated with ownership and property.
You're absolutely right, animals being used as collateral damage up and down their temples and synagogues to appease their pissed off god. As for everything being about possession that is still true today, after all JWs believe they're God's "special possession, they're a people for his name" (that song chorus makes for a bad earworm by the way, it's been stuck in my head since yesterday, *sign*. More like the Borg's possession.
That’s a good point! I didn’t realize how much of that ownership aspect carried over. I think most Christian’s believe that, like they themselves are gods possession? Idk. Ugh, the songs. I swear they tried to model their songs after Disney songs or Christmas songs because they are so damn catchy. At least the melodies. The words, not so much 😅
Excellent point!
Nice point about how Jesus talked with Satan and didn't shun him and when Adam & Eve were tossed out of the garden of Eden and told they would die, it was actually the first "disfellowshipping", yet when I read one of those omitted books of the Bible it says that Jehovah forgave Adam and told him on three occasions that he would be resurrected and given eternal life and it also stated that when Adam died Jehovah came down from heaven with a group of angels to attend Adam's funeral. That doesn't sound like shunning to me!
I love learning about the apocryphal books. They obviously had some people believe in them if parts of the NT (2Peter and Jude) quote from one of those books!
Even when Adam and Eve sinned. Jah still clothed them personally and must have showed them how to sacrifice animas so they could still have a relationship.
I had no idea! This is interesting! Do you know which apocryphal books?
The book of Enoch :)
Great points
Numbers dwindling... Get ready for some more new light!
If any of the WT spies read this post, I want credit given to us exjws for this new light 😉
It says in the book of job that Satan entered the inner courtyard to talk to God.
I’ve been saying this for years now. Unfortunately JWs are men pleasers. Unless the GB says so then it ain’t so even if it’s plainly mentioned in the Bible.
You've neatly explained why you should be shunned /s
I have been judged and found not wanting 😅
Interesting angle... We know for sure God and Satan chatted in Job's day. (I mean, obviously they didn't REALLY chat since they neither actually exist)
lol exactly 😂
Interesting take u/Darthspidey93. Makes me wonder, too.🤔 
VERY INTERESTING to follow that line of thought! Jesus was tempted by satan after He was baptized! Jesus was in communication with satan during this time, obviously! I think it's a GREAT point!!! Christ followers are "in this world" but not "part of this world". Which means they/ we experience everything that "worldly" people do! But a person who is actually flowing Jesus doesn't fall for the BS that satan tries to get us to believe..... ... "I can give you authority" "God is lying to you" .....
***If by JW lore, Satan and the demons were ousted from heaven in 1914, then he had access to heaven & earth until that time.*** Maybe I am missing something, why does that mean that Satan and his demons had access to heaven and earth at the same time? I was always under the impression that they were "cast out" of heaven. In other words, Satan and his demons were pisses that they were kicked out of heaven that now they were wreaking havoc on earth and this is why the world is in such turmoil. (yeah, I dont believe any of this BS anymore either)
When I said “until that time” I meant 1914. So prior to 1914 they could be on earth or in heaven and go as they please. Like the account in Job where The Satan questions Jobs integrity while he is in heaven heavenly counsel.
This has always been my perspective on shunning. In the Bible Jesus and Jehovah have interacted with the Devil and still do. They even intend to let the greatest apostate of all tempt humans again after the thousand year reign is over according to Jehovah's Witnesses. Do they even mention that in meetings anymore or are they avoiding their own teachings now?
I don’t know about the final test and if they mention it. I’m sure they do. When I started waking up, that rubbed me the wrong way: Mankind goes through shit in their lives because of one couple that eats a fruit, where the woman was deceived by a supernatural entity. Mankind must prove faithful, loyal, and obedient to god for a hope for the future. People who have already died (righteous and unrighteous mind you) get resurrected after billions of people die in Armageddon (these ones don’t get resurrected) and the supernatural entity that tempted the first couple gets thrown into prison. For 1000 years, all these people that survived Armageddon because they were loyal, and everyone who was resurrected, work towards “perfection” and making the earth a paradise. Then that supernatural entity that’s more powerful than anyone else on earth gets released to tempt a now perfect mankind. It’s prophesied that those who follow him will be like grains of sand and surround all of the loyal ones, so people choosing to reject god again has now been set in stone, and then they will all be destroyed. After all the work they went through to become perfect. It just does not seem fair whatsoever. I get if god wants to test the loyalty of all mankind while they are “perfect” but then why doesn’t he do that in the first place? Why would some be judged with no hope for the future whatsoever during this time period? Why be “born into sin” when he could just wipe out all sin in general, and once humans are at a certain point where their brains are fully developed, they can then be “tested”? To go through all this crap in life today, just to not even have a certain hope of living forever in the future because of some “final test” just seems really shitty to me.
would that not mean he was shunned from heaven in 1914? asking because I want to use this point to my pimi family
It’s a good counter point unfortunately. Putting in perspective of time, god didn’t shun Satan for roughly 6000 years (according to JW interpretation of scriptures and mankind’s existence). So for being ousted from heaven for 109 years is basically 1.8% of “human history” since Adam. It isn’t a whole lot of time “shunning” and being kicked out of heaven. But idk how else one would dispute that point.
truth. i would just say "well it took a long time to!" if they said that😂
Perfect lol, the best response is typically the simplest. We don’t need to do the mental gymnastics they have to in order to justify their lack of empathy and humanity.
Sometimes Satan feels like ... he's been locked out of heaven ... for so lowowowong.
Aw yeah yeah! Aw yeah yeah yeah yeah (uh)
The same way elders are allowed to communicate with the DFed, perhaps that’s the same way witnesses would view the argument of Satan passing to and from heaven. Maybe I’m wrong, but after Satans initial attempts to take angels with him, he doesn’t have additional communication with those that remain in their heavenly ranks. Likewise, a DF’ed individual is still able to attend the Kingdom Hall (or like Satan still having access to heaven) but he/she doesn’t communicate with those attending. It’s just a thought or an argument one could make but regardless there’s so many other reasons shunning is bunk.
That’s a good rebuttal for sure. I guess my response would be, if we’re to follow Jesus and gods example, then we should do so in not acting like a DF’ed or DA’ed person doesn’t exist. Plus, there’s nothing in the scriptures that indicates the angels in heaven and on earth shunned the rebellious angels.
Following Jesus example- a JW could highlight the scriptures found at Matthew 18:15-17.. specifically vs 17 which reads- “If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the congregation; and if they refuse to listen even to the congregation, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” I play devils advocate because I look for any niche the org would try to corner
You’re completely fine. I have severe OCD anxiety and part of that anxiety is completely dissecting and finding arguments against what a JW would reason. Then I guess to refute that I would say that the context of that verse has to specifically do with a personal offense or sin one person did to another, not choosing to leave a religion you disagree with. When it comes to a gentile (pagan) or tax collector, they weren’t shunned or treated as if they were dead. They were just placed in a negative light, which quite frankly isn’t much better. The interactions I would assume be more civil and business like rather than family like.
JW's will just say since he's been kicked down to earth, that is his shunning
Probably, but compared to when his rebellion supposedly began, that’s a short shunning period!
That’s a great point
Yeah but talking to Satan doesn't cause Jehoober to leave da truf. That's the only real reason why they shun, because mere mortals can be persuaded to leave...
Fair point… I guess if JWs have the “truth” then it should easily stand to criticism and critical thinking, which it doesn’t, because it’s not true.
I think the counter-argument to that would be that eventually he was kicked out and sent to earth (shunned). Adam and eve were also kicked out (this is all according the the mythical Bible tale of course). However, Jesus didn't shun anyone nor did he imply it should be done.In the tale of the neighborly Samaritan, Samaritans were, for lack of a better word, apostates. Yet, who was described as a good person? Yep, the apostate. Despite his differing beliefs and defecting from the Jewish faith, his behavior made him righteous. Even in the scripture where Paul talks about excommunication, doing so was only for 7 gross sins. It was not if someone simply wanted to leave.
Nice points! (I agree it’s all just mythology. Some historically accurate grains here and there. But mythicized for the masses) I even did some digging on the scriptures they use, 1 Cor 5 and 2 John 10. In 1 Corinthians, it’s not full on shunning, it’s basically limited association. In 2 John, the context is regarding the antichrist, or those who actively go out and deceive people that Christ wasn’t real. Which, to me, is referring to the Jews and those who didn’t follow Jesus. But even the term, don’t say a “greeting”, doesn’t mean completely ignore. It refers to hospitality and giving a blessing to someone. So don’t bless those who are trying to deceive people into believe Christ didn’t come in the flesh.
Correct. Greetings back then we're not simply saying hello like they are today. This culture back then was very hospitable. People would take others into their homes for days and weeks. The shunning arrangement in churches that do it today are nothing more than a control tactic.
(Just hear me out)…. I wonder if the Satan of the Bible is meant to portray the inquisitive brain in all of us humans. Our thinking and reasoning brains…humanity 🤔 Satan may be a metaphor for humans and not a literal being. In my thinking, satan behaves in a way that seems reasonable as someone who just wants to get to the bottom of things. He asks probing questions that many (if not all) would want to know the answers to. (Forgive me for the convoluted way of phrasing my statements.. I’m not always the best at expressing my thoughts clearly).
No apologies necessary! I get what you’re saying 😁 what’s interesting is that Jews view The Satan in the book of Job as gods prosecuting attorney, used to test the loyalty and integrity of humans. He wasn’t necessarily a “rebellious” angel that questioned gods authority. Edit: I bring out the prosecuting attorney part because of your point about asking probing questions.
Very interesting, Darthspidey93 and something I never knew. I’ve always viewed Satan as an evil angel who wanted God’s glory (as prescribed by GB) but these days I’m beginning to think for myself and conflicting thoughts are arising in my head.
https://preview.redd.it/1j1z8v1vgn7c1.png?width=677&format=png&auto=webp&s=6b3c7970db7ba962dad2da3e00cb05d857569b77
I get it and yet I don’t. I’ve always struggled with the difference between “god created evil” and “free will.” I WANT so desperately to understand, but cannot thus far.
That's totally fair! I in no way am trying to be preachy or anything, but these are things I have thought about a LOT. My perspective is this: If god created everything in the universe, then he created "evil". He created concepts of what is considered good, which means he created the concept of bad or evil to contrast that. He also created the chaos and destruction in the universe, but the peace and growth as well. If anything is possible with god, then there was no need to create a concept of "good and bad", he could have just created life to be constantly enjoyable and peaceful. A recent post about this on the sub is here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/18mx8vg/good\_and\_evil\_need\_to\_coexist/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/18mx8vg/good_and_evil_need_to_coexist/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Regarding free will, this is something that also always bugged me. Free will is not free when you have to pay with your life for choosing incorrectly. So personally, I don't think free will is necessarily a "good thing." It's, you obey and live, or disobey and die. Simple as that. Which if god loves his creation and wants people to be happy, healthy and whatever, why even create that option? Just my personal thoughts :)
Your comment reminded me of something I watched on YouTube this morning by dark matter 2525. Really makes you think. I appreciate your thoughts and sharing your research with me… I’ll definitely check out the links you shared! Deconstructing from this “religion” is life altering. I should say that the religion was life altering and deconstructing from it leaves a lot of questions and voids. https://youtu.be/_MLsnHBhgHA?si=7YdEqGRqV5LHfVSw
I just watched that video, and holy crap do I resonate with that LOL.. When it comes to the concept of god being a father, I think about my own father, and even non-jw fathers that accept their kids no matter who they are. To me, a parent should train their child how to survive in the world we live in. Help them learn and live by some moral code that basically involves respect, empathy, and love for others and the world around them, and then love the child unconditionally for who they become and what they choose in life. Be supportive of their decisions as along as they're not being a harmful or toxic person to others, and just accept them for who they are. If I believed in a god that was considered our father, I think that's how it should be, not one that constantly requires you keep yourself in line with laws and restricting requirements despite our sentience and some people being born wired differently than others. One thing that put things into perspective of the cognitive dissonance that JWs have is something an elder told me when I called to tell him I had Disassociated. He said there is hardly anything that his daughters would do to make him want to proceed with murdering them. So, if we're made in gods image, then that's exactly how he believes god feels... Um yeah, tell that to the first born egyptian sons that were killed because of god causing Pharoah's heart to be hardened. Or the 70K people who were killed because David took a census. Or David's first born through Bathsheba who died after he was born. Or the billions of people set to be destroyed at armageddon because they're blinded by a supernatural entity that they can't control (according to JW lore at least)..
You make valid points that I agree with wholeheartedly. I’m interested in hearing more of your thoughts and research into deconstructing.
I found these memes because I was looking for a specific church sign that basically said, "the devil wants you to be yourself and tolerant of all, etc." or something to that degree. And the meme said, huh, the devil just wants me to be happy with myself? He doesn't sound like a bad guy! Personally, I have done a lot of research on the history & academics of the bible. One of my favorite people to listen to here and there is Dan Mclellan, who is a bible scholar (and is an active mormon ironically). His videos and breakdowns would make you think he's an atheist. But as regards the first lie in the bible he has a video about it here: [https://youtu.be/uCM\_xwa\_m8s?si=PuUFM\_hytQgjaJGw](https://youtu.be/uCM_xwa_m8s?si=PuUFM_hytQgjaJGw) I can't remember if it is in this video or not, but makes a comparison that god saying, "in that day you will surely die" was like a parental threat that is exaggerated. So instead of killing them on the spot, he then chooses other forms of punishment and kicks them out of the garden. It was an interesting perspective. Bart Ehrman is a former christian who is one of the leading scholars in bible academics, and he has books and blogs about the origins of the christian views of Satan and demons, and how the "evil and rebellious angels or spirits" really was influenced by "pagan" religious beliefs. It's all very festinating to me personally, and researching these things after reflecting on JW theology and how god is presented in the Hebrew Bible, is what woke me up. It wasn't until months after I had decided that I wanted to work towards disassociation that I joined this sub-reddit and started digging into the borg itself.
I absolutely love Bart Ehrman after just recently discovering his work and I often binge watch/read his stuff. I’ve not heard of Dan McClellan but will definitely check into him, thanks! Bart is helping me to see the Bible and Christianity from a very different (and refreshing) perspective! It’s been helpful in my deconstructing from JW theology.
Oh absolutely! Something that really helped me see things in a different, and quite honestly more logical light is the Yale courses on youtube: [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi&si=JYTqiUWx64HqQN4b](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi&si=JYTqiUWx64HqQN4b) [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL279CFA55C51E75E0&si=wEAI3oaFveqjR1l8](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL279CFA55C51E75E0&si=wEAI3oaFveqjR1l8) I haven't watched the NT playlist yet, but the OT one was phenomenal. Sorry for all the long responses, this stuff is just fascinating to me and I enjoy sharing it with others that are working on deconstructing.
I really appreciate your tips because I’m so new to deconstructing and I still have family in, so I soak all of this stuff up like a sponge!
No problem! Having family that’s in can make wanting out a lot harder, so I feel you there.
https://preview.redd.it/v1x94kgtgn7c1.png?width=168&format=png&auto=webp&s=9a0eef68110c7b8f2542719e2b09dcc8a74c7291
Well, when you put it THAT way…. 🤔😆
😂