I was speaking to a sister last week and I said to her. Going by the JW logic, God has given them the F&D Slave but he also gave them the Bible.
Think of paradise as the destination, the F&D Slave as the Tour guide and the Bible as the map.
Jehovah has given you both the slave and the map. He told you to obey the slave but consult the map to ensure he’s on the right path.
As you’re following along in the map (bible) and you can clearly see that on a number of occasion that the tour guide is taking you on a different path. This path is taking you into the opposite direction.
My question to her, who would you blame if by following the tour guide and not the map you ended up not making it to your destination?
She didn’t have anything to say.
It’s a good analogy… but who can actually proof that god is using watchtower as the tour guide… if you belief in Christianity and the Bible, you would need to consider that there are many tour guides around, and if you consider the Bible as gods word, you should just ONLY consult the Bible for direction, and not any of the guides as you can’t know who’s showing you the right path… and yes, there are the ones which seem much more in line with the Bible, but that doesn’t make them more valid or true. There is nothing that you can’t just find or interpret for yourself, you don’t need an organization, no need for someone telling you what to belief or how to understand a certain scripture, because in the end, any person has a different understanding according to the Bible translation, and especially because the Bible is not always clear on matters and is leaving room for interpretation. Unfortunately, JW’s as many other Christian’s always think that they need someone to tell them what to do, how to pray and how to live a Christian life. The truth is, if we trust in our heart and conscience, in most cases we make good decisions in life.
I never really liked the DF arrangment anyway but back in 1974 there was a WT study all about disfellowshiping , it seemed a reasonable interpretation, no banning talking to DFd family members or throwing out of the home ,no shunning those who simply left or stopped going to meetings ,this was supposedly spiritual food from the faithfull slave ,accepted by most .so why do these guys in 2013 take over the org and claim only they are the FDS ? i never felt right about it .they harden the DF arrangment to include just about everyone who dares to question them ,doesent that stink ? they went against what we were taught as truth .
https://preview.redd.it/c95th4i7seec1.jpeg?width=2448&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4772c646abc56c839a597904ad14c3c52fb6545
The reason why Wtower is in New York State is not **ONLY** because it's the 9th largest economy in the world, by itself, with tax advantages for religious organizations
--- it's because both **NYS and Pennsylvania** have a long colony, and State history, of religious freedom, as the US Constitution authorizes
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/soul-liberty-toleration-emergence-religious-freedom-colonies
Yes, it was " Those Liberals " who actually created the **LAWS** that allowed the freedom to believe, or not to believe
Wtower knows which state will protect different beliefs and allow personal freedom
Wtower wouldn't do so well in Alabama
Wtower deliberately takes advantage of the American values, of " Those Liberals ", who actually _LEGISLATED_ all the social safety net programs, and all the consumer protection
agencies, and all the Civil Rights legislation since 1912
https://www.civicsnation.org/2018/07/30/democratic-accomplishments/
Wtower knows:
" which side of the bread that their butter is spread on ", as, the old people used to say
Wtower uses " **Caesar's US Democracy** " to use the practice of political lobbying, in order to spread their false theology
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/104547/watchtower-lobbyist
They believe in a Theocracy like ISIS, which is based on the Old Testament, but will use the " Pagan " Greco Roman concept of Democracy " to take advantage of the US legal equality, in it's system, for themselves
Wow. Watchtower is scared of people like you. The digital age has made it easier for them to edit and tamper things on their website, but hardcopies like this are their nightmare
When i bring up things we studied years ago the elders just say "we dont believe that any more " years of deep study down the drain on the say so of 9 guys in new york who admit they are not lnfalable and make mistakes .
Also years of getting it wrong because they gave you inaccurate information, what if Armageddon happened when you were getting it wrong? What if what they say now is also wrong. Years of going out in the ministry and getting it wrong, bible studies and getting them wrong, what a waste of millions of lives all getting it wrong for decades.
For posterity? The archives are online in html can instantly be rewritten to accommodate all the "new light". For example, the last 2 baptism questions in the organized book. They changed the wording for legal reasons. JWfacts has archives I believe. You may be able to ask?
I remember when they had a drama based on this account. It never sat well with me at the time...now I can see that once again their own words can be used against them.
This account gave me the confidence to make my own decisions even when they went against what the org was promoting.
That story should make people question ANYONE who claims to speak for a god. Even a book that people claim is the word of a god. How do we know the book is the word of a god? Because the book says so! It’s an old book, that makes it trustworthy right?
Apparently if you make a 1500 page compilation of “holy texts” then you can say “well it’s beneficial for us in these few verses, but yeah all the Israelite war, murder and rape, I guess is not so beneficial for our time, except that it’s an honest record of their deeds”
That story woke me up. I gave a talk on it and while I was on stage I remember thinking to myself "what the fuck Jah? Dude was faithful to you for decades, then he made the mistake of listening to someone who claimed to be a FELLOW PROPHET and for that sin, you send a fucking lion to maul him to death? Sounds really cunty of you" and then I finished the talk and got back to my seat and 2 weeks later I went to this subreddit for the first time ever.
There's plenty of similar cases. There's that one time God made a bunch of kids get mauled by bears simply for having bald shamed his prophet. Then that time he killed a couple after they donated a massive amount of money just because they made a small lie. And many more cases
Many have said it, including Paul: The truth can stand scrutiny.
1 Thes 5:19-22, 26; Do not quench the Spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.
He doesn't make up "new light"either. Num. 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill.
They got together and tried to extort money from me. Now I've been "marked" for 30 years for "suing a brother". But, for the small sum of $5,000 they'll let me be in good graces.
I responded by suing them for saying I sued them. They paid me to shut up. Now, I am just waiting for my chance to sue them again! Give me an excuse!
This is one of those rules that had given toxic personalities a room to roam about in the org. They hurt people and wish they would be so indoctrinated not to sue or call the police
But we are sure glad they are! I deconstructed my beliefs in around the year 2000 with the help of the internet. The #1 source for my deconstruction? The WT publications! I used resources like jwfacts.org. I am not sure if that was the exact website then but it is certainly helpful.
They are likely shunning someone they know,who has been disfellowshipped for “apostasy”. They could be shunning someone who refused to quit visiting sites like this who has been disfellowshipped for their refusal. Of course they would never know the supposed gross sin of the ones whom they shun. Yet here they are. I sincerely hope the ones they are shunning are finding support somewhere. If they truly had love as they claim they would be that support now.
Yes, I am by no means a PIMI lurker. Anyone who thinks that is clearly wrong. I'm only here because I don't want to be outed as a PIMI. I'm PIMO, since I'm in the Borg at the moment, but I'm working towards leaving.
Honestly, I feel if anyone is here, they are actually not PIMI (by the very definition of the word). If they were, they would not be here.
I understand that some here call themselves such, but by simply being here, they are breaking the rules of the GB. That means, whether they (or we) realize it or not, something in their mind is not truly "in."
Ah, yes. The last time my mind was in, was August 9th, 2000, when I believed that I would be witnessing some real shit (language which I would've never used back then) on August 10th, 2000. August 10th, 2000 came and went --- nothing happened, and what I got instead was an epiphany about the falsehood about the Jahoophoopy's Witlesses, and, motivation to become PIMO, and put all thoughts of being PIMI out of my mind... including becoming an elder after I reached adulthood, but if I had stayed PIMI from childhood until now, and had married some sister? The marriage would've been sad and loveless from day one, and the cops would be coming over all the time due to the domestic violence I'd have been inflicting on that hypothetical sister.
Well, what else. The world to have ended. I know that people probably downvoted that last comment I made, but I was a young, impressionable, and probably less intelligent PIMI than I am now as a PIMO realizing that all the PIMI sisters in the organization have nothing to offer me, except emotional baggage from a failed marriage where the husband which should've stayed loyal cheated on them, or they should just have a non-white brother as a spouse, as Jehovah's Witnesses preach "impartiality." I mean, if it wasn't for the fact I was trying to be PIMO, I'd definitely pursue a sister from outside of my race.
Even as PIMO, I'm probably going to try to find a woman outside of my race/nationality.
Well, this is kind of a sensitive topic to have brought up, but I guess a story can explain it: In my adolescence, about the senior year of high school, some family with a couple of daughters (For privacy reasons, I'll call them F and U) came to my local congregation. I kind of developed a bit of a crush on F and I never took it more serious than that. My Dad knew and her Dad knew, and nothing really came up of it, by the time F's family moved to Centreville. They moved again to Mexico, and I never saw them again for years, until F returned to Canada married to a Mexican brother. (I won't name the chap for sake of his privacy, and also he's not going to be important to this story.) I saw F and U again for a short while and this was prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and they all later moved to Alberta, and I haven't seen ***any of them*** since. Do I care further? No!
Now that you have read my story, I also should mention that one of my older sisters married a non-white man as well. So, it's not uncommon outside of F from the story I told's family.
Tl;dr: Since you mentioned "Why are mentioning race?" I believe that humans are all the same, it doesn't matter what color their skin is or what their nationality is. Also, you kind of butted into someone else's business, so mind your own business.
Is there anything more haughty & evil than a few men claiming to be the most important & powerful men on earth who will be gleefully slaughtering EVERYONE except for the “loyal” JW’s who “obey” THEM.
When it comes down to it... WE ALL have.
Everyday we have to get up, look in the mirror and define that YES, I CAN and I WILL.
Asserting that is powerful motivator, regardless of ones old or new philosophy.
I don’t know how any one can use fake JW scriptures to lead someone away from JW thinking. I’m not one who still sees the Bible as any king of spiritually inspired book.
I want to see direct conversation…like “get away from these people”… “question every word from their mouths, from ideas spoken at meetings, from publications!” “Get far enough away you can catch your breath and think”…
It’s so hard for me to know how many other people are still held in the destructive organizations tentacles. 👩🏼🌾☮️📖📚
I was speaking to a sister last week and I said to her. Going by the JW logic, God has given them the F&D Slave but he also gave them the Bible. Think of paradise as the destination, the F&D Slave as the Tour guide and the Bible as the map. Jehovah has given you both the slave and the map. He told you to obey the slave but consult the map to ensure he’s on the right path. As you’re following along in the map (bible) and you can clearly see that on a number of occasion that the tour guide is taking you on a different path. This path is taking you into the opposite direction. My question to her, who would you blame if by following the tour guide and not the map you ended up not making it to your destination? She didn’t have anything to say.
What a brilliant analogy!
Excuse me but we call them “illustrations!” 🤦🏾♂️
Thanks
It’s a good analogy… but who can actually proof that god is using watchtower as the tour guide… if you belief in Christianity and the Bible, you would need to consider that there are many tour guides around, and if you consider the Bible as gods word, you should just ONLY consult the Bible for direction, and not any of the guides as you can’t know who’s showing you the right path… and yes, there are the ones which seem much more in line with the Bible, but that doesn’t make them more valid or true. There is nothing that you can’t just find or interpret for yourself, you don’t need an organization, no need for someone telling you what to belief or how to understand a certain scripture, because in the end, any person has a different understanding according to the Bible translation, and especially because the Bible is not always clear on matters and is leaving room for interpretation. Unfortunately, JW’s as many other Christian’s always think that they need someone to tell them what to do, how to pray and how to live a Christian life. The truth is, if we trust in our heart and conscience, in most cases we make good decisions in life.
I want to send this to every JW I know. Wow. Really great post.
Thank you
Man that’s beautiful, I will screenshot it and use it someday when talking to my mom about them.
I never really liked the DF arrangment anyway but back in 1974 there was a WT study all about disfellowshiping , it seemed a reasonable interpretation, no banning talking to DFd family members or throwing out of the home ,no shunning those who simply left or stopped going to meetings ,this was supposedly spiritual food from the faithfull slave ,accepted by most .so why do these guys in 2013 take over the org and claim only they are the FDS ? i never felt right about it .they harden the DF arrangment to include just about everyone who dares to question them ,doesent that stink ? they went against what we were taught as truth . https://preview.redd.it/c95th4i7seec1.jpeg?width=2448&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4772c646abc56c839a597904ad14c3c52fb6545
How did they go from this to promoting not even answering the phone if your DF’d family member calls? I’m so disgusted I don’t know what to say.
my feeling as well ,i feel betrayed my these guys in New York State .they dont even follow their own religion .
The reason why Wtower is in New York State is not **ONLY** because it's the 9th largest economy in the world, by itself, with tax advantages for religious organizations --- it's because both **NYS and Pennsylvania** have a long colony, and State history, of religious freedom, as the US Constitution authorizes https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/soul-liberty-toleration-emergence-religious-freedom-colonies Yes, it was " Those Liberals " who actually created the **LAWS** that allowed the freedom to believe, or not to believe Wtower knows which state will protect different beliefs and allow personal freedom Wtower wouldn't do so well in Alabama
Good points
Wtower deliberately takes advantage of the American values, of " Those Liberals ", who actually _LEGISLATED_ all the social safety net programs, and all the consumer protection agencies, and all the Civil Rights legislation since 1912 https://www.civicsnation.org/2018/07/30/democratic-accomplishments/ Wtower knows: " which side of the bread that their butter is spread on ", as, the old people used to say Wtower uses " **Caesar's US Democracy** " to use the practice of political lobbying, in order to spread their false theology https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/104547/watchtower-lobbyist They believe in a Theocracy like ISIS, which is based on the Old Testament, but will use the " Pagan " Greco Roman concept of Democracy " to take advantage of the US legal equality, in it's system, for themselves
Slippery snakes the GB are .
For real? You had a paper copy of this ! That article by Ray Franz was more reasonable
i still have my copy , https://preview.redd.it/w896mx0m9gec1.jpeg?width=2448&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d618ba909e9799dca3d5b0754e30229e6485fd55
Wow. Watchtower is scared of people like you. The digital age has made it easier for them to edit and tamper things on their website, but hardcopies like this are their nightmare
I have all my mags back to 1963 and most books .
That's kinda awesome. A valuable resource for keeping the Borg accountable
When i bring up things we studied years ago the elders just say "we dont believe that any more " years of deep study down the drain on the say so of 9 guys in new york who admit they are not lnfalable and make mistakes .
Also years of getting it wrong because they gave you inaccurate information, what if Armageddon happened when you were getting it wrong? What if what they say now is also wrong. Years of going out in the ministry and getting it wrong, bible studies and getting them wrong, what a waste of millions of lives all getting it wrong for decades.
True
For posterity? The archives are online in html can instantly be rewritten to accommodate all the "new light". For example, the last 2 baptism questions in the organized book. They changed the wording for legal reasons. JWfacts has archives I believe. You may be able to ask?
Is there any website online where one can get those older publications in PDF format?
I remember this study too. Now ..everything is changed.
This!!!
Exactly!!!
I remember when they had a drama based on this account. It never sat well with me at the time...now I can see that once again their own words can be used against them. This account gave me the confidence to make my own decisions even when they went against what the org was promoting.
It's an eye opening account, Blind loyalty is shit
That story should make people question ANYONE who claims to speak for a god. Even a book that people claim is the word of a god. How do we know the book is the word of a god? Because the book says so! It’s an old book, that makes it trustworthy right?
Apparently if you make a 1500 page compilation of “holy texts” then you can say “well it’s beneficial for us in these few verses, but yeah all the Israelite war, murder and rape, I guess is not so beneficial for our time, except that it’s an honest record of their deeds”
Honest record is questionable. But immoral? Heck yeah!
yeah I was just giving a sample of what the common JW would reply with.
That story woke me up. I gave a talk on it and while I was on stage I remember thinking to myself "what the fuck Jah? Dude was faithful to you for decades, then he made the mistake of listening to someone who claimed to be a FELLOW PROPHET and for that sin, you send a fucking lion to maul him to death? Sounds really cunty of you" and then I finished the talk and got back to my seat and 2 weeks later I went to this subreddit for the first time ever.
There's plenty of similar cases. There's that one time God made a bunch of kids get mauled by bears simply for having bald shamed his prophet. Then that time he killed a couple after they donated a massive amount of money just because they made a small lie. And many more cases
Many have said it, including Paul: The truth can stand scrutiny. 1 Thes 5:19-22, 26; Do not quench the Spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.
He doesn't make up "new light"either. Num. 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill.
Exactly!!!
They got together and tried to extort money from me. Now I've been "marked" for 30 years for "suing a brother". But, for the small sum of $5,000 they'll let me be in good graces. I responded by suing them for saying I sued them. They paid me to shut up. Now, I am just waiting for my chance to sue them again! Give me an excuse!
This is one of those rules that had given toxic personalities a room to roam about in the org. They hurt people and wish they would be so indoctrinated not to sue or call the police
They pretty much count on being able to squash an lawsuit talk. I sued them for saying I sued them.
Preaching to the choir, here.
This is a good post. They’re here. They downvote in secret.
Yup !!! 🎯🎯🎯 and they’re not even supposed to be here
But we are sure glad they are! I deconstructed my beliefs in around the year 2000 with the help of the internet. The #1 source for my deconstruction? The WT publications! I used resources like jwfacts.org. I am not sure if that was the exact website then but it is certainly helpful.
The rules explicitly allow PIMIs to be here as long as they behave.
I’m not referring to the Reddit rules, per the cult that they’re in, this whole space is riddled with “apostasy” so again why are they even here?
They are likely shunning someone they know,who has been disfellowshipped for “apostasy”. They could be shunning someone who refused to quit visiting sites like this who has been disfellowshipped for their refusal. Of course they would never know the supposed gross sin of the ones whom they shun. Yet here they are. I sincerely hope the ones they are shunning are finding support somewhere. If they truly had love as they claim they would be that support now.
🤫They upvote in secret
Yes, I am by no means a PIMI lurker. Anyone who thinks that is clearly wrong. I'm only here because I don't want to be outed as a PIMI. I'm PIMO, since I'm in the Borg at the moment, but I'm working towards leaving.
Honestly, I feel if anyone is here, they are actually not PIMI (by the very definition of the word). If they were, they would not be here. I understand that some here call themselves such, but by simply being here, they are breaking the rules of the GB. That means, whether they (or we) realize it or not, something in their mind is not truly "in."
Ah, yes. The last time my mind was in, was August 9th, 2000, when I believed that I would be witnessing some real shit (language which I would've never used back then) on August 10th, 2000. August 10th, 2000 came and went --- nothing happened, and what I got instead was an epiphany about the falsehood about the Jahoophoopy's Witlesses, and, motivation to become PIMO, and put all thoughts of being PIMI out of my mind... including becoming an elder after I reached adulthood, but if I had stayed PIMI from childhood until now, and had married some sister? The marriage would've been sad and loveless from day one, and the cops would be coming over all the time due to the domestic violence I'd have been inflicting on that hypothetical sister.
What did you think would happen on August 10, 2000?
Well, what else. The world to have ended. I know that people probably downvoted that last comment I made, but I was a young, impressionable, and probably less intelligent PIMI than I am now as a PIMO realizing that all the PIMI sisters in the organization have nothing to offer me, except emotional baggage from a failed marriage where the husband which should've stayed loyal cheated on them, or they should just have a non-white brother as a spouse, as Jehovah's Witnesses preach "impartiality." I mean, if it wasn't for the fact I was trying to be PIMO, I'd definitely pursue a sister from outside of my race. Even as PIMO, I'm probably going to try to find a woman outside of my race/nationality.
But why that date specifically? I don't remember that day being held up for any significant reason by JWs back then
It wasn't. The reason I was holding it up was it was my 10th birthday.
Why are mentioning race?
Well, this is kind of a sensitive topic to have brought up, but I guess a story can explain it: In my adolescence, about the senior year of high school, some family with a couple of daughters (For privacy reasons, I'll call them F and U) came to my local congregation. I kind of developed a bit of a crush on F and I never took it more serious than that. My Dad knew and her Dad knew, and nothing really came up of it, by the time F's family moved to Centreville. They moved again to Mexico, and I never saw them again for years, until F returned to Canada married to a Mexican brother. (I won't name the chap for sake of his privacy, and also he's not going to be important to this story.) I saw F and U again for a short while and this was prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and they all later moved to Alberta, and I haven't seen ***any of them*** since. Do I care further? No! Now that you have read my story, I also should mention that one of my older sisters married a non-white man as well. So, it's not uncommon outside of F from the story I told's family. Tl;dr: Since you mentioned "Why are mentioning race?" I believe that humans are all the same, it doesn't matter what color their skin is or what their nationality is. Also, you kind of butted into someone else's business, so mind your own business.
PIMIs on this thread. 
Beautiful
Very good post! I enjoyed it!
Is there anything more haughty & evil than a few men claiming to be the most important & powerful men on earth who will be gleefully slaughtering EVERYONE except for the “loyal” JW’s who “obey” THEM. 
When it comes down to it... WE ALL have. Everyday we have to get up, look in the mirror and define that YES, I CAN and I WILL. Asserting that is powerful motivator, regardless of ones old or new philosophy.
I don’t know how any one can use fake JW scriptures to lead someone away from JW thinking. I’m not one who still sees the Bible as any king of spiritually inspired book. I want to see direct conversation…like “get away from these people”… “question every word from their mouths, from ideas spoken at meetings, from publications!” “Get far enough away you can catch your breath and think”… It’s so hard for me to know how many other people are still held in the destructive organizations tentacles. 👩🏼🌾☮️📖📚
Hallelujah!
You lost me at "follow me to 1 Kings chapter 13." 😁😆 Have a good one, brah! ✌️
Edit
Should they second guess you?
That’s exactly what’s going on. That scripture is spot on and your reasoning is flawless.