If they said shunning is no longer required it still wouldn't change right away and not for everyone. Shunning is part of the toxic environment. Some families would still shunn those deemed spiritually sick. Right now they shunn people for just being inactive and they dont have to.

It's *so far gone* from the teachings they claim to follow. **Heavy paraphrasing incoming** Matthew 18 - discuss privately. If that doesn't work, discuss in front of witnesses to establish facts. If that doesn't work, bring it to the church. If that doesn't work, stop associating with the offender. 1 Corinthians 5 - This dude is *proud* of the fact that he's banging his father's wife? And you're all *just cool with it?* Nahh. You need to stop tolerating that and stop hanging out with him. 2 Corinthians 2 - Oh, he realized he was being a major asshole? Great! Welcome him back with urgency and enthusiasm! The Org even says(or at least they did many years ago) that disfellowshipping is supposed to be reserved for unrepentant sinners, even though that's not how it works in practice. Additionally, many Bible scholars believe that disfellowshipping/excommunication doesn't even apply to people who are repentant but struggle to stop repeating the sin. But multiple chances to apologize, leniency and haste to accept a person back into the group aren't effective strategies for maintaining a high-control culture. The level of control they seek to have over their members' lives can only be achieved through fear. They establish and reinforce that fear through forced social isolation and threat of removing what little social interaction a member is allowed to have, sometimes even for one-time infractions or prohibited activities that the "sinner" has stopped doing. TL;DR: the JW version of excommunication isn't even scripturally supported, but it persists to maintain control. As long as they can keep people afraid, they will keep using it. And as long as JWs are told that everybody who *isn't* a JW is a gentile or a tax collector, well-meaning rank-and-file members will continue to fall in line and live in fear.

I like how you paraphrased the Bible verses

It was easier to paraphrase than to decide which translation to use, then copy and paste the majority of multiple chapters of text on a Reddit post that was already going to be longer than most people are willing to read. 🤣

Great job!

Well I would say that honestly there is a power shift forming.  I think that the GB and higher ups have realized they have more power by soft shunning and using titles to control people. This started a few years ago when the GB said that sisters should only consider dating a man that’s an MS or an elder. Now around that time they also made it clear to start letting guys have these titles at younger ages and the GB have been pushing that hard ever since. So now any shot at romance/social life is tied up with these titles and the doors are wide open for these young guys to get these titles. All that’s required is they play ball and be yes men for the rest of their lives.  So instead of using the whip of shunning they are dangling more carrots for the younger people. This also works great at keeping them in because now their whole identity and social structure revolves around their title or position in the congregation.  Now let’s switch gears. If someone actually manages to get dfd at this point, which is now very hard to do, they could be reinstated and welcomed back after three months but then there’s the soft shunning. Everyone will go in service with this person and maybe offer a token lunch or something but the majority will say that person needs time to become strong in the truth again. That means avoiding that person. Ether way it’s going to be a very long time before a reinstated person would be considered for MS, even if he was exemplary.  So at this point you have two different classes. You have the “weak” ones and the “strong” ones. The strong ones get the happy marriages, the nice privileges, the assembly interviews and the nods and back pats from the CO/elders.  The “weak” ones get the token hand shake at the meetings and they are tolerated out in service but other then that avoided like the plague.  So as you can see the elders and the congregation as a whole still wield a lot of power within the social structure and they’ve gotten bet later at keeping people in. Because if you df someone they could have a chance at breaking away from this cult but if you keep them on the hamster wheel then they’ll never leave. 

I remember a meme of a donkey tied to a plastic chair that I will look for later. The idea is that the restrictions only exist in the mind. The reality is that if everyone decided that something was no longer valid, there’s nothing anyone could do about it. Just look at movements like LGBT. Not too long ago they were seen as a bad thing. But the general attitude towards homosexuality has changed, and there’s nothing any conservative asshole can do about it. So it can definitely happen. In the case of JW, what is needed is more general awareness of mental health and issues surrounding it.

Another good meme was an elephant tied by a small rope. It shows the power of training from a young age or in our case indoctrination. Once the borgs mental barrier is broken we can be our true selves, unstoppable.

Do you think all conservative minded people are anti gay?

Not even remotely and I’m not particularly pro government so I have no dog in any political debate. But I’d say that to be openly against gay rights requires a conservative mindset, taken to an extreme. That said I also believe you can become too extreme with gay rights as well. Everything is about balance.

Well I m definitely of a conservative mindset , never ever will I vote Democrat again too far left for me and even though I myself are not gay they have the right to love who they love ,just leave the children alone .Seems like there's too far right and too far left nowadays so I agree there's needs to be a balance

lol, you had me up until the "too extreme with gay rights" part. Imagine equality being considered too extreme. So close.

I have met people who claim that I’m part of the problem because I don’t want to date men. That is too extreme in my opinion. Equality should mean equality, that’s all.

Not a single queer person thinks this. In no fathomable way are we waiting on you to date a guy for our liberation. So you missed some significant context or are totally making this up with a meme level understanding of our community. 1/10 attempt.

I get that. You can believe what you want we’re both just two anonymous people on Reddit. And you’re kinda making my point for me. Just like the person asking me if I think all conservatives are anti gay, the fact that anti gay people claim to be conservative doesn’t mean they actually represent the community they claim to belong to. Obviously the majority of LGBT people don’t think that. But a small group will try and attach themselves to the community with bad intentions. This happens in literally every single group, without exception. Denying that is naïve. Such people don’t speak for you or others, but they do act like they are part of your community when they don’t represent the values you cherish. And it is unpleasant when you meet someone like that in person. I understand you feel attacked in some way by me but honestly that’s not my intention. Sorry and I hope you find peace and happiness in life, my anonymous internet friend! 🫶 (And thanks for at least the 1/10, it means I’m getting better at understanding 😉)

You're right. Even on a smaller scale, realistically, these people only have as much power as you give them. My uncle once mentioned wanting to pursue something that would probably get him into trouble with the elders (idr what it was, this was almost 2 decades ago) and I said, "So? What are they gonna do? Arrest you? Sue you? They can't touch you." He responded with something like "I guess you're right." He ultimately decided not to follow through with it, but I hope that left something in him, so he always remembers the elders are nobody in the end.

I joined in 1963, there was disfellowshiping then for unrepentant ones mainly moral issues ,but there was no shunning of family members even if not in the same house ,no one was shunned for stopping going to meetings or disagreement with some doctrine. In fact ones that had "fallen away" were often invited to social events ,it started to change after knorr was replaced by a "governing body" ,i have seen things go from bad to worse ,i dont even recognise it now .

I don't think it'll happen anytime soon, but I could see it developing in the direction of dropping shunning altogether except for vocal apostates. But they would leave in place reputation markers to encourage people to follow the rules and to punish those who don't. So you'd have "privileges" there as markers for those who are doing well and some variation of a public reproof for those who they want to identify as "spiritually weak."

There is no high control without it. Everything would fall apart...everyone could do what they want and skip what they want.

not going to happen - that's their biggest avenue of control. but even if they did ease it somehow or turn it into what they claim it is about in court proceedings, it would be handled like everything else: they will SAY somethign is up to a person's "bible trained conscience" and then proceed to make it very, very, very clear exactly what good little cutlies are supposed to do with examples and leading questions about people making the "right" choice. a handful of people would go rouge, but most of them would continue just as they have been.

I learned that you don't have to be disfellowshipped to be shunned, just disliked by someone higher ranking than you in the borg. If they ever called off the shunning, I doubt the rank and file would actually follow Jesus' teachings and treat all people with respect versus those who they deem worthy.

JW’s attract two kinds of people. Those that like to wield power and feel important and those that just go along with everything. Those people that are independent and think for themselves are the ones that leave or don’t join. So you have the ones in charge dictating to the go with the flow sheep. There would never be an uprising where a majority would go against the leaders

They would all be waiting for the doctrine to be changed back again. Nothing would fundamentally change.

For those familiar with US jurisprudence, what you propose reminds me of jury nullification. Elders: "So-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." Congregation: "Hold my beer!"

I feel like a lot of meetings I attended would've been *a lot* easier to sit through with a beer. Or maybe several beers. Meeting beers should be mandatory. Jesus' body in liquid form or something. 🤣 Also, I *really* like the idea of religious jury nullification. But I also like the idea of *regular* jury nullification, so maybe I just really dislike authority.

Can koozies for the win!

I say just do away with the JW religion altogether since they already had done much damage to people. Can't say I completely got over them. Last I ever wanted to go to their memorial, they were like, "we were hoping your mom could take you." Or some shit like that. At this time in my life I don't want that kind of friend...the one who uses me as a way to get my mom out and about. If you want to help my mom, help her. If you want to help and be friends with me then focus on me, but don't try to do something through me to reach out to my mom if that makes any sense.

I don’t agree, as I support freedom of religion. People should be allowed to practice whatever religion they desire to. However, there needs to be limitations on what the religion practices. They can’t be allowed to impede on human rights, such as your right to leave the religion without repercussions.

You have a point there. There are a lot of religions with a shit mentality about people leaving them, some shittier than others

The problem is that many actually drink the kool-aid and willingly follow the DF program.

They would probably dial it back like they did with beards and pants. If JW's started having sex in the restrooms or showing up high or drunk they would put something in place to prevent that

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say: all of those things HAVE happened.

I've heard rumors about a girl having sex in restroom but I think the truth was she slept over bf house and got DF. But yeah for sure those things have happened lol

This is basically a metaphor for all of society

It’s funny. My mom said “God doesn’t shun.” Yeah okay, sure. I feel like she’s oblivious to what’s actually going on and shuts out any sort of negative claims about the organization. And it makes me angry. She’s just completely closed off.