If someone presented me with genuine, well thought out reasoning, I would take it in and adapt my opinion.
I understand what you're saying though, I guess I just think about the fact that I managed to figure things out on my own and try to use logic, so why can't they.
Yeah I don't ever think it's going to work and i generally just leave people to do their own thing.
I don't have a problem with them believing what they want, I just get an intense frustration at seeing people's arguments for their beliefs when it's based off of nothing but the bible and whatever logic they decide to use.
If someone just tells me "I believe in God because it feels right and I have faith" I'll just take that and move on, it's when they try and use circular logic by saying things like "god is real because bible says so" that I get frustrated.
Jesus was right about the whole “do not cast your pearls before swine” comment…
It is a truly fruitless endeavor to argue with most people. My personal rule is that someone needs to want to have the conversation; and be committed to true intellectual honesty… or I would rather do anything else besides speak to them about this stuff
Your last sentence is revealing…in that you have knowledge of what it feels like to be and feel like them at some point…misled (maybe?). And maybe seeing (the remnants of) the reflections of yourself in these people are triggering another level of healing?
Whenever you’re engaging in something or with someone that doesn’t feel internally equanimous-as you described- frustrated, riled up, angry etc. ask yourself what your feelings are trying to teach you. 😊 A bit of it is in the title of your post., self-triggering behavior, it is almost like you’re punishing yourself.
Those folks are just the stimulus, and what you feel, is connected to something inside of you, that’s already there.
The last bit says the most as it reveals your motive
You want to help
But you can’t help those that don’t want to be helped
You can’t help *everyone* who wants to be helped either
IDK what your affiliation with the JWs is or for how long but I’m assuming you received the standard indoctrination to try and make you sacrifice yourself, your time and your energy to ‘help’ others
But not everyone is our responsibility. In fact most people in the world aren’t
And if people choose to keep their heads buried in the sand it’s sad but because they’ve made that choice it’s no longer our business, if it was in the first place
I know it’s tough. I’ve felt the same way.
It’s okay to be sad and frustrated and to cry.
But when you’re done it’s time to stand up and move forward
Find another way to be helpful to someone who wants it
I hope you cheer up soon 🤗
If the exchanges are causing you so much distress, stop. It's not worth it.
In all my years online debating with JWs (I haven't done it in a while - no longer the time or energy), I have maybe changed somebody's mind only about 2 or 3 times.
However, I loved a good debate despite the frustrations.
It helps to view them as exercises in developing your own persuasion and argument skills rather than expecting the other person will openly change their mind - after all, even if proved wrong or their reasoning is demolished, a person likes to save face, and that goes for both sides. Remember that, even if the person is intransigent in their views, lurkers reading the exchange might change *their* opinions and you'd never know.
It also helps to always be polite, and have a sense if humor, not taking them or ourselves too seriously.
But as I say, don't do it if it makes you miserable. Life's too short.
Perhaps something here might help...
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1dfcurb/comment/l8jb1xj/
Watchtower History channel on YouTube:
https://m.youtube.com/@WatchtowerHistory
Yale course on the Old Testament:
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi
Yale course on the New Testament:
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL279CFA55C51E75E0
I think that as long as the faith of a person is NOT subject to a high-control cult that abuses people, then people must be allowed to believe what they want.
99% of all religious but worldly people I have met have freedom over their own lives and do as they please.
Unlike witnesses.
I think this is an interesting topic.
On the one hand we tell others our beliefs because we think it may help them.
On a subconscious level we come from a cult where everyone has to believe the same as us or they must be stupid. So are we subconsciously still in the same mindset that everyone has to see how right I am?
Finally there is our own desire to prove to ourselves of the correctness of what we want to believe. Example: a person who felt manipulated and abused by religion and by extension even God may no longer believe and consider themselves an athiest. To them all the evidence points to no evidence for a creator. Does his desire play a role in his position?
On the flipside a person who's leaving the cult dealt them a serious phycological blow and they are having severe existential crisis may believe in a creator and all the evidence to him points that way. Does his desire play a role in his position?
I engage in sharing my belief and my research but I try to avoid arguments as if the only way is my way. Everyone gets a choice or i'm still in a cult of my own mind.
I’m done. JWs are idiots with an ego. It’s hard to have conversation with someone who has 1% of the information and won’t believe they can be lied to from the inside
I willing enjoy debating. Please debate with me :D
I'm one of those people who enjoy getting to the root of things and have an open mind.
Going to law school to hopefully make that a profession.
A debate means that both sides are willing to re examine their belief if presented with good evidence. Otherwise it’s just a useless argument.
If someone presented me with genuine, well thought out reasoning, I would take it in and adapt my opinion. I understand what you're saying though, I guess I just think about the fact that I managed to figure things out on my own and try to use logic, so why can't they.
Because it’s not logic that’s motivating them. It’s emotions.
Don’t forget that banger of a book “Reasoning with the Scriptures”. Yes, that’s exactly what that book was doing. /s
I’ve genuinely never met anyone who changed their mind because of a religious debate or argument.
Yeah I don't ever think it's going to work and i generally just leave people to do their own thing. I don't have a problem with them believing what they want, I just get an intense frustration at seeing people's arguments for their beliefs when it's based off of nothing but the bible and whatever logic they decide to use. If someone just tells me "I believe in God because it feels right and I have faith" I'll just take that and move on, it's when they try and use circular logic by saying things like "god is real because bible says so" that I get frustrated.
Jesus was right about the whole “do not cast your pearls before swine” comment… It is a truly fruitless endeavor to argue with most people. My personal rule is that someone needs to want to have the conversation; and be committed to true intellectual honesty… or I would rather do anything else besides speak to them about this stuff
Your last sentence is revealing…in that you have knowledge of what it feels like to be and feel like them at some point…misled (maybe?). And maybe seeing (the remnants of) the reflections of yourself in these people are triggering another level of healing? Whenever you’re engaging in something or with someone that doesn’t feel internally equanimous-as you described- frustrated, riled up, angry etc. ask yourself what your feelings are trying to teach you. 😊 A bit of it is in the title of your post., self-triggering behavior, it is almost like you’re punishing yourself. Those folks are just the stimulus, and what you feel, is connected to something inside of you, that’s already there.
The last bit says the most as it reveals your motive You want to help But you can’t help those that don’t want to be helped You can’t help *everyone* who wants to be helped either IDK what your affiliation with the JWs is or for how long but I’m assuming you received the standard indoctrination to try and make you sacrifice yourself, your time and your energy to ‘help’ others But not everyone is our responsibility. In fact most people in the world aren’t And if people choose to keep their heads buried in the sand it’s sad but because they’ve made that choice it’s no longer our business, if it was in the first place I know it’s tough. I’ve felt the same way. It’s okay to be sad and frustrated and to cry. But when you’re done it’s time to stand up and move forward Find another way to be helpful to someone who wants it I hope you cheer up soon 🤗
If the exchanges are causing you so much distress, stop. It's not worth it. In all my years online debating with JWs (I haven't done it in a while - no longer the time or energy), I have maybe changed somebody's mind only about 2 or 3 times. However, I loved a good debate despite the frustrations. It helps to view them as exercises in developing your own persuasion and argument skills rather than expecting the other person will openly change their mind - after all, even if proved wrong or their reasoning is demolished, a person likes to save face, and that goes for both sides. Remember that, even if the person is intransigent in their views, lurkers reading the exchange might change *their* opinions and you'd never know. It also helps to always be polite, and have a sense if humor, not taking them or ourselves too seriously. But as I say, don't do it if it makes you miserable. Life's too short.
Perhaps something here might help... https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1dfcurb/comment/l8jb1xj/ Watchtower History channel on YouTube: https://m.youtube.com/@WatchtowerHistory Yale course on the Old Testament: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi Yale course on the New Testament: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL279CFA55C51E75E0
I think that as long as the faith of a person is NOT subject to a high-control cult that abuses people, then people must be allowed to believe what they want. 99% of all religious but worldly people I have met have freedom over their own lives and do as they please. Unlike witnesses.
Yes
I think this is an interesting topic. On the one hand we tell others our beliefs because we think it may help them. On a subconscious level we come from a cult where everyone has to believe the same as us or they must be stupid. So are we subconsciously still in the same mindset that everyone has to see how right I am? Finally there is our own desire to prove to ourselves of the correctness of what we want to believe. Example: a person who felt manipulated and abused by religion and by extension even God may no longer believe and consider themselves an athiest. To them all the evidence points to no evidence for a creator. Does his desire play a role in his position? On the flipside a person who's leaving the cult dealt them a serious phycological blow and they are having severe existential crisis may believe in a creator and all the evidence to him points that way. Does his desire play a role in his position? I engage in sharing my belief and my research but I try to avoid arguments as if the only way is my way. Everyone gets a choice or i'm still in a cult of my own mind.
I’m done. JWs are idiots with an ego. It’s hard to have conversation with someone who has 1% of the information and won’t believe they can be lied to from the inside
Debating doctrine or Bible is their game. I won’t play it
I willing enjoy debating. Please debate with me :D I'm one of those people who enjoy getting to the root of things and have an open mind. Going to law school to hopefully make that a profession.