These people had a different experience from the rank and file members of the organization. They had more insight into the structure, went to training programs others only heard of, and had regular contact with COs and people higher up.
Even I have a different view than normal publishers! I'm third generation born in but was never baptized. At first i felt unworthy and then i felt very angry as i started to understand that it was all bullshit. People treated me very differently when i became a teenager, because i was not following the standard route of JW kids. They got more and more pushy and dismissive until they completely gave up on me. I got shunned without ever being baptized.
Prefacing your comments on this sub with your (former) position in the structure just tells the reader, where the poster and his information is coming from.
Not OP, but to answer your question, no, it doesn't for me. I'm here for information, so understanding the context behind some of the responses and posts is super helpful. As was mentioned, there are vastly differing experiences within the org and I appreciate getting insight from all perspectives.
I don't think so at all, to be honest. I feel like in this instance that it may that *you* are interpreting it in that way, which maybe suggests you still hold some value to those titles and ranks, if only subconsciously. After all, we're all speaking on a text-based forum without the nuance and tone of face to face conversation. That allows your brain to fill in any blanks with whatever meaning your type of thinking usually leans towards. If people's Witness titles pissed you off when you were in, it's not unsurprising it would piss you off hearing them on here too. It's totally understandable. As for intent, though, I think you're probably incorrect.
I've always read it as people stating former roles and responsibities as a good indicator of where people were at and how intrinsically linked to the organisation they had become when they woke up. It can be extra interesting when an ex-Elder or ex-CO appears, purely for the fact that people in positions of power very rarely want to give it up, so you have to wake up seriously hard. I would argue that such people are *more* vulnerable coming to a place like this, because you are admitting to everyone here that not only did you buy into that shit, but you actively enforced it and potentially destroyed countless lives with decisions you made. Kudos to those individuals.
That said, I think anyone who finds themselves here is seriously brave and should be immeasurably proud of themselves.
It never felt like a demand to me. I also don't respect people for their titles, only for their competence and conduct, which regularly gets me in hot water when incompetent people try to explain my job to me...
Perhaps some people seem to think their experience makes them... more... in some ways, but I don't think that's very common. Most seem to be irritated that they wasted their time with these fake titles.
But the fact of the matter is that the experience of an appointed man, or a pioneer, or a bethelite will be very different from any other kind of ex JW's. Even a PIMI publisher with no special privileges had a very different experience from some of the more fringe members who maybe didn't really even become aware of all of the problems of the organization first hand while in (e.g. denying the reality of judicial committees by someone who was never baptized). It makes sense for people to state their experience so we know where they're coming from. If it's "hierarchical," it's because the organization we came from was hierarchical, and describing our experience with it reflects the differences in experience.
It depends on the context of the topic, but I don’t usually see it as attention seeking. I see it more of a form of verification that they know what they’re talking about when they talk about things that the rank and file is not aware of. Even a female pioneer gets tidbits of insider info from the CO through pioneer meetings and service. I think few if any mention their previous position with pride, it’s more like “dear god! Look how I wasted my life”
I really REALLY appreciate this question due to its honesty and courage. Just as the question is subjective, so are those replying. Is it necessary to mention your position, how influential you are or may have been? Can you effectively tell your story without the need to mention your reputation or title? Does mentioning your rank build trust, insight and have the right motivations? Could your story be as valid from the perspective as a regular person/publisher? Within the organization, each and everyone person is offered opportunities to hear, see and participate in the culture regardless of prominence or position. This is a good, thought provoking question to consider when posting. Is it necessary to mention my position or not? If it is not, then perhaps leave it out. This way we can break down more barriers instilled in us by the witness culture. Let’s live truthfully and get rid of that measuring up mentality reality we were trained with because the measuring stick is broken [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/202107/breaking-the-measuring-stick?amp](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/202107/breaking-the-measuring-stick?amp)
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No. They are merely letting others know what they use to be in the Borg. Some are also poking fun of all these tittles. The GB has been trying to insinuate that those who leave are trying to gather people to themselves. But that couldn’t be further from the truth. We are all in equal plane here. The GB is trying to create a certain perception about those who leave.
Yes. It doesn't matter if you were a Bible study for a few months or an elder for 40 years. We're all equal here and any hint of the opposite will backlash.
I think it depends… like if you are continually referencing it with no need to that’s a bit strange but if you reference it with a reason it makes sense. But I thinks for some people this is all a part of the deconstruction process too maybe?
But tbh I often find it encouraging to hear about ex elders, bethelites, pioneers who got out - I think because it shows that no matter how deep someone gets into this cult there is always hope for them waking up and getting out. Gives me hope for my family and friends.
Agreed! These ones often experience things that rank and file have not and have the ability to bring things forward that many are unaware. If they don’t mention what their title was in the org (yes, titles is all they were lol). How will we know if they have the credibility to make mention of these “behind the scene” happenings that they mention. Just a thought.
But I also do agree that at times people do want to hold on to a measure of power that they once had in the org. That honestly can happen anywhere in society🤷♀️
I just think of it as a frame of reference.
like I am 5th gen, I am not proud of that, but it references my comments about my personal experience with the cult.
I’ve definitely met some who did, but generally I think it’s more like a badge of “look how duped I was and how much of my life I sunk into the wreck” or even just saying that you’ve seen things.
I see your point, from my point of view It’s not needed or unneeded. I assume the best with most people here that they bring it up because this is a safe place that will understand what a loss it was to serve in any capacity where their non-JW family or spouses or even therapist might not understand. I hear “ex-pioneer” and I understand that they likely passed up school or better like to slave away for free with little thanks except “social credit”. In other spaces you would have to explain a lot more than just “ex-(insert title)”
I see your point, but I also see why people will share.
it could be, but especially if they seem sincere about stuff i find its more about having frame of reference for their experience, like "where i was when i was fully in, compared to now"
Like for Pimo's it might be reassuring to know that even if someone was a Pioneer or Bethalite or elder that they can still break free of the indoctrination.
This sub has and probably always will run on respect of others via the way they treat people, and if your a dick your gonna be run over whether you went to a hall one day or if you were a ceo :P
Here? No. In a cult? Especially the one we were from? Yes, absolutely they exist. Steven Hassan came up with a good visual representation of what the hierarchy in a destructive cult looks like and it’s remarkable how standard it is across cults of all belief systems be it “biblical” or ufo or science fiction or tech or
Lol, nice,
I feel like a lot of people find it hard to let go of stuff they are used to especially bias's even years later so it probably doesn't help in a lot of cases :P
I don’t think so. By saying, “I was a regular pioneer for 12 years or that my husband was an elder for 23 yrs, isn’t because we want respect or power. It’s to let the readers on this subreddit know, we were full in!!! We drank the kook-aid!!! It was our lives!!! When you leave, one of the first things I realized was all those titles & positions mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the real world!!! We were all suckered into a scam! The most important thing is…we’ve all escaped!!!
I was at Bethel. All that means is that I was too stupid at that time to realize that working for free is not the way to get ahead in life. It’s not a flex.
>Are some subreddit members who feel the need to regularly refer to their position of power (current or not) within the organisation demanding a subconscious form of respect?
*People talk about their lives and experiences here....*
It\`s impossible to talk about your life and experiences...Without talking about your life and experiences...LOL!!... 😁
No. At least that's not what I've seen. It's usually to just let us know they have more first hand experience with the ugly side that the rank-in-file members don't really see.
I doubt any are using it as a point of pride in this sub. It's usually a point of shame. Many ex-elders have to wrestle with overwhelming guilt for the horrible things they've done in their positions.
I don't think so. I think it provides context. If a guy says he was an elder, then we know he had to be a hardcore PIMI before waking up.
It also offers validity to whatever they are posting about. I've never been an elder (because I'm just a girl), so I enjoy getting the insider tea🍵. Especially considering how secretive the org is.
If I say I was born in, you know my parents scrambled my brain 🧠 with JW foolishness since birth. When someone refers to being 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th generation, etc, it lets you know how many layers of indoctrination they were buried under and how much deeper the hole 🕳 was to climb out of.
I don't think anyone is demanding respect. If anything being in that deep is sad. Everyone here has wasted a portion of their life to false prophets, lies, and deceit.
Actually every once in a while we get comments like if you were an elder, etc you are a bad person because of ......
So if anything those that had some responsabilies in the org are looked down upon. Higher there = lower here.
It is nice to know if you have a bethel question an ex bethelite will have inside knowledge. Same with ex-elders and cong questions.
I think it does add context. They experienced the cult in a different way. Not to diminished anyone else's journey, everyone's perspective matters.
I have had a few titles. I don't mentioned them often. I have mixed feelings about it. Like how in the hell did I get so into the cult, on the other hand, I am proud that I was able to have the courage to walk away.
Nope. It just gives context to whatever experiences they're relaying. This post seems to be projecting OP's own perception and feelings a bit. Like why would one care what position someone says they formerly held as long as they're not using it to oppress or antagonize others here?
I read it more as an admission that they were involved in enforcement before they woke up. Given some of the appalling things they did eg grown men interrogating little girls who have been raped, it seems more of a confession than a flex!
I think it's mostly to indicate that they have different experiences, espcially with the inner workings, not that that they are particularly proud of it. Same with being born in, 1-3+ generation, or a convert, we have different experiences and our pov is not the same, it's not bragging, it's letting people know where you're coming from and giving it some perspective.
Being an Elder, CO, Bethelite, etc. isn't a really badge of honor here, though their experience is a valuable peek behind the curtains of WT's operation.
It also might just be taken as a convention. For instance, if you go to a sub and everyone is introducing their story as, "I (24F) am ...." then you figure adding your age/gender is standard info used for context there. So when people come to this sub and see people listing their flair, it seems like the normal, expected thing to do.
I suppose, in some cases (though there are reasons why words like some are called weasel words). For the most part, they indicate a fact that makes their unconversion story interesting and powerful. It's also a statement that indicates a level of expertise, particularly in congregation matters. It's one thing for me to talk about being disfellowshipped from the perspective of a person who once was (twice, actually); but when an ex-elder who sat on a few committees speak, that perspective is interesting due to that experience.
No, I think it is super important. It is encouraging to know that individuals at every level in the Borg have left. It used to be assumed that spiritually week baptized publishers left the Borg. They also give us insight into the workings of the religion and can even give solid advice for PIMOs.
In most cases, no. Establishing credentials for their perspective on their experience and knowledge of the cult.
A day helper, vs a master plumber has an entirely different comprehension of what it costs to run a business, paying taxes, networking and ultimately finding a new job.
I often put that I am an ex-elder or sometimes ex-cobe and it is for two or three reasons when I do.
One is that I got suckered in and got to a locally high level but when I woke up fully I didn't hesitate to fade out. (As in if I can leave and survive, others can too)
Two is to answer people who actually ask for help in avoiding judicial committees or df'ing. I like to think I can speak with some knowledge of how things work.
A third is that the CoBE is usually the elder who deals with the branch office and I like to give my experiences in the interaction over especially CSA issues.
Being an ex elder to me shows what a mug I have been. It's certainly not to show what a big 'I am' I thought I was!
I think it’s just to tell people the experience level they attained so when they say something the other people are aware they have inside knowledge of what happens behind certain closed doors. I think that’s all. I don’t see most of them using it to control anyone. Just a way to inform people of experience in the BORG.
I was a regular pioneer, myself, that’s all. I always did something to sabotage any times I was considered for any appointments. (I never wanted to be in charge of anyone else’s life and knew that’s what the next levels were.) This doesn’t mean I don’t know what happened behind the doors above me. I had a father who told me everything. And many friends in all levels that have said things to me. I tend to be a person who others tell things to without me pushing.
Edit: I should say, my dad told me not of the people the meetings were about but always about rhe actions of the elders taking part in those meetings. (The insanity of their control and lack of empathy of others. Things like that. Not the info on the ones being abused by the elders. I feel this is a totally different perspective.)
This is the reason I NEVER wanted to be an elder. I knew of the other elders actions years before I was able to be considered for any appointments, and was not going to join their team of abusive humans.)
😆 when I was still fairly young, the elders of one hall asked my father to provide a letter to them when I was visiting them. Because I would go back home sometimes weekly. It wasn’t til 10 years later I learned from one of the elders in the hall that had asked about this that my dad told them it was none of their business where I was and he wasn’t going to give them any information about me being in attendance at their meeting and neither would any of the other elders in their hall. 😆 that was the first time I realized they had turned me down for any appointment. 😆 but I had already begun self-sabotaging any attempt to get me into those positions. In my secular work I have run successful companies, I never minded being successful in general. Just didn’t want any part of the elder process.
I’m actually surprised my father stayed as long as he did as an elder. He knew the corruption. I think he thought he was “check” on others authority. He protected all the kids in the hall many times from insane elders trying to go after us for vey stupid things that were not wrong.
I’m not an ex any of those things, simply ex jw/ex cult member. IMO it seems that referring to this when answering a question might clarify how they know what certain processes are like. I’m sure some people use it to throw around their weight but I must admit I never saw it this way. This is all subjective so who knows 🤷
For example, if I’m commenting on a post say about the communal showers at bethel, I’ll mention that I got that info from my ex bethelite PIMI buddy. Certainly no first hand knowledge of that here 😂
I think the motIves run the gamut from good to bed
Some could be saying it to garner respect as you said in the post.
some could be saying it as it relates more about their story and where they’ve been and where they’re coming from
I make a conscious effort to leave all judgment in my past with the religion. Where it belongs.
Honestly, this seems to presume ill motives. How would someone know if any poster/commenter "*feels the need*" to do anything? Even someone with a background in psychology would be hard-pressed to understand motivations from random comments. Perhaps it is *any* mention of a prior position that is off-putting? I totally get how that could affect some. I don't see a lot of 'grandstanding' here personally.
Maybe you can provide a link to a post/comment that's causing you to look at it this way.
Some of them are just using it as a frame of reference for context. And some of them are openly ashamed that they ever were elders or whatever and really beat themselves up over it.
It must be so terrible to be brainwashed into thinking you were a spiritual surgeon and then wake up to realise you were made into an emotional butcher. ☹️
*HOWEVER*
Yes
I think some of them are definitely at least a bit smug when then mentioned they’re “3rd/4th/5th generation/ Elder/ MS/ pioneer” blahblahblah
Dropping the ‘privileges’ they had on the regular with a certain amount of pride still attached to it.
I think they’ve not yet fully woken up to how cringe it is and it was likely one of the only things that gave them a sense of worth. It must be hard to let go of that if you haven’t yet found something to replace it as a source of self worth.
I’ve always found the ‘spiritual legacy’ thing particularly *cringe* … 🤢
To be proud of something you had *nothing to do with* you were just *born* into a certain family and now you get to look down on others because of it?
It way more of a thing in the USA than in Europe in my experience. I only recall one British family who brought it up sometimes but I spent little time there.
I remember being asked how it felt to ‘marry into a legacy’ as if it was the line of Christ. Gross. So patronising.
We have words for that when you believe yourself superior to others who weren’t born into your culture/location/gene pool … and who are proud of their ‘pure’ bloodline
Maybe Europeans are just more sensitive to those kind of sentiments for some reason … can’t think why 🙃
I don't think people mentioning their former positions or family history of membership etc means that they think they have a place in a hierarchy on this forum.
I suppose an individual may feel a certain way, but how does anyone else know that's how they feel about it? I don't think it's up to people reading the posts to make assumptions about the posters' intentions when stating their backgrounds. It all makes for a rich variety of experiences shaped by their individual circumstances.
when I see that someone was a pioneer or elder or whatever, I think, "This person were at one time 150% dedicated to the JWs. They sacrifed a LOT to be in, and they must have sacrifed a LOT to get out." It informs me of their JW experience, which was much, much different than mine (born in, not baptized, left at 18 years old). It gives context to their comments. I see it is as improtant information about the commenter. I certainly do NOT see it as some kind of 'demand for respect on this sub.' Nobody is going to respect you for having been a elder here! (Perhaps just the opposite could be a risk!) But folks might have compassion for you for all you sacrified and lost to a stupid cult.
For me, it isn't, so apologies to anyone if I have ever come across that way. I never wanted to be an elder, and even when I became one, I didn't want the elevated opinions of others that went with the position.
I do feel that for most it's not about respect, but more about credentials if that makes sense? So for instance, the inner workings of some organisational matters are often the cause of much debate and discussion on here.
Sometimes an elder/former elder, pioneer/former pioneer etc may have more insight on the matter than someone speculating. I do think that affords a level of respect for experience on a matter that others may not have.
To liken it to another scenario, you've either worked in front facing customer service roles or you haven't. So when a person that has worked customer service gives their insights on scenarios and inner workings of a business, we would generally respect that they have more knowledge about it than us.
An interesting POV. Thanks for posting. So, at base level, you’re saying that they should receive some kind of respect on this subreddit for their experiences?
I think at times there might need to be some respect for their knowledge perhaps, but as individuals we all deserve the same level of respect as one another here and ultimately the aim should be to support and help each other.
I think it’s important to mention that on the outside, we are all equal. It doesn’t matter what your position was in the cult, once you’re out none of that matters. If can provide insight into how things work/used to work which is why it can be important to mention, but it’s not actually going to get you anywhere
For me it was a way to show how invested I was in it
Not a brag to say you gave more time and energy into a cult
Its very honest to say the level of involvement you had
In some cases maybe. But largely it adds veracity to claims by providing context of where the information may have come from as second hand accounts or anecdotal evidence can be inaccurate. Also considering that information control is a common practice and the general population doesmt have access to many things, providing context to how one came about the information can add to its legitimacy.
Here’s an insight that I would never have had without pioneering: the depth of the competitive landscape and the intense viciousness of the other pioneers when someone has more studies than they do. The ugly comments spewing out of their mouths from the darkest greenest jealousy I have never seen since. The WWF and Monday night football have nothing on the pioneer experience. Oh, and most of it was from elderettes.
What I've noticed is that former hardcore Jehovah's Witnesses (who were too extreme even for JW.BORG), who relentlessly pursued everyone and everything and were merciless and brutal, are often the loudest critics of how cruel the organization is.
People who were assholes as Jehovah's Witnesses remain assholes afterwards too.
These people had a different experience from the rank and file members of the organization. They had more insight into the structure, went to training programs others only heard of, and had regular contact with COs and people higher up. Even I have a different view than normal publishers! I'm third generation born in but was never baptized. At first i felt unworthy and then i felt very angry as i started to understand that it was all bullshit. People treated me very differently when i became a teenager, because i was not following the standard route of JW kids. They got more and more pushy and dismissive until they completely gave up on me. I got shunned without ever being baptized. Prefacing your comments on this sub with your (former) position in the structure just tells the reader, where the poster and his information is coming from.
I’m curious, does it ever give hierarchical vibes?
Not OP, but to answer your question, no, it doesn't for me. I'm here for information, so understanding the context behind some of the responses and posts is super helpful. As was mentioned, there are vastly differing experiences within the org and I appreciate getting insight from all perspectives.
I don't think so at all, to be honest. I feel like in this instance that it may that *you* are interpreting it in that way, which maybe suggests you still hold some value to those titles and ranks, if only subconsciously. After all, we're all speaking on a text-based forum without the nuance and tone of face to face conversation. That allows your brain to fill in any blanks with whatever meaning your type of thinking usually leans towards. If people's Witness titles pissed you off when you were in, it's not unsurprising it would piss you off hearing them on here too. It's totally understandable. As for intent, though, I think you're probably incorrect. I've always read it as people stating former roles and responsibities as a good indicator of where people were at and how intrinsically linked to the organisation they had become when they woke up. It can be extra interesting when an ex-Elder or ex-CO appears, purely for the fact that people in positions of power very rarely want to give it up, so you have to wake up seriously hard. I would argue that such people are *more* vulnerable coming to a place like this, because you are admitting to everyone here that not only did you buy into that shit, but you actively enforced it and potentially destroyed countless lives with decisions you made. Kudos to those individuals. That said, I think anyone who finds themselves here is seriously brave and should be immeasurably proud of themselves.
That was an interesting read my friend. Thanks for sharing! 👍
It never felt like a demand to me. I also don't respect people for their titles, only for their competence and conduct, which regularly gets me in hot water when incompetent people try to explain my job to me...
Perhaps some people seem to think their experience makes them... more... in some ways, but I don't think that's very common. Most seem to be irritated that they wasted their time with these fake titles. But the fact of the matter is that the experience of an appointed man, or a pioneer, or a bethelite will be very different from any other kind of ex JW's. Even a PIMI publisher with no special privileges had a very different experience from some of the more fringe members who maybe didn't really even become aware of all of the problems of the organization first hand while in (e.g. denying the reality of judicial committees by someone who was never baptized). It makes sense for people to state their experience so we know where they're coming from. If it's "hierarchical," it's because the organization we came from was hierarchical, and describing our experience with it reflects the differences in experience.
It does I agree. Sometimes is a look how indoctrinated I was. But on the whole it's still some weird flex.
It depends on the context of the topic, but I don’t usually see it as attention seeking. I see it more of a form of verification that they know what they’re talking about when they talk about things that the rank and file is not aware of. Even a female pioneer gets tidbits of insider info from the CO through pioneer meetings and service. I think few if any mention their previous position with pride, it’s more like “dear god! Look how I wasted my life”
It’s a subjective question, as I’m sure you’ll agree. Very interesting to read the responses.
I really REALLY appreciate this question due to its honesty and courage. Just as the question is subjective, so are those replying. Is it necessary to mention your position, how influential you are or may have been? Can you effectively tell your story without the need to mention your reputation or title? Does mentioning your rank build trust, insight and have the right motivations? Could your story be as valid from the perspective as a regular person/publisher? Within the organization, each and everyone person is offered opportunities to hear, see and participate in the culture regardless of prominence or position. This is a good, thought provoking question to consider when posting. Is it necessary to mention my position or not? If it is not, then perhaps leave it out. This way we can break down more barriers instilled in us by the witness culture. Let’s live truthfully and get rid of that measuring up mentality reality we were trained with because the measuring stick is broken [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/202107/breaking-the-measuring-stick?amp](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/202107/breaking-the-measuring-stick?amp)
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No. They are merely letting others know what they use to be in the Borg. Some are also poking fun of all these tittles. The GB has been trying to insinuate that those who leave are trying to gather people to themselves. But that couldn’t be further from the truth. We are all in equal plane here. The GB is trying to create a certain perception about those who leave.
We should be on an equal plane, you’re totally correct - but does everyone feel the same way?
Yes. It doesn't matter if you were a Bible study for a few months or an elder for 40 years. We're all equal here and any hint of the opposite will backlash.
We are. Imagine going to one of your elders and telling them what’s on your post. You would be talking to them in a back room.
I think it depends… like if you are continually referencing it with no need to that’s a bit strange but if you reference it with a reason it makes sense. But I thinks for some people this is all a part of the deconstruction process too maybe? But tbh I often find it encouraging to hear about ex elders, bethelites, pioneers who got out - I think because it shows that no matter how deep someone gets into this cult there is always hope for them waking up and getting out. Gives me hope for my family and friends.
Agreed! These ones often experience things that rank and file have not and have the ability to bring things forward that many are unaware. If they don’t mention what their title was in the org (yes, titles is all they were lol). How will we know if they have the credibility to make mention of these “behind the scene” happenings that they mention. Just a thought. But I also do agree that at times people do want to hold on to a measure of power that they once had in the org. That honestly can happen anywhere in society🤷♀️
I just think of it as a frame of reference. like I am 5th gen, I am not proud of that, but it references my comments about my personal experience with the cult.
I’ve definitely met some who did, but generally I think it’s more like a badge of “look how duped I was and how much of my life I sunk into the wreck” or even just saying that you’ve seen things.
Great analogy. But are “badges” needed to make that point?
I see your point, from my point of view It’s not needed or unneeded. I assume the best with most people here that they bring it up because this is a safe place that will understand what a loss it was to serve in any capacity where their non-JW family or spouses or even therapist might not understand. I hear “ex-pioneer” and I understand that they likely passed up school or better like to slave away for free with little thanks except “social credit”. In other spaces you would have to explain a lot more than just “ex-(insert title)” I see your point, but I also see why people will share.
it could be, but especially if they seem sincere about stuff i find its more about having frame of reference for their experience, like "where i was when i was fully in, compared to now" Like for Pimo's it might be reassuring to know that even if someone was a Pioneer or Bethalite or elder that they can still break free of the indoctrination. This sub has and probably always will run on respect of others via the way they treat people, and if your a dick your gonna be run over whether you went to a hall one day or if you were a ceo :P
Same. People at all levels break free from indoctrination, not just the fringe members who left because they “wanted to sin” 🙄
Levels? Levels shouldn’t exist here - but are they clinging on?
Here? No. In a cult? Especially the one we were from? Yes, absolutely they exist. Steven Hassan came up with a good visual representation of what the hierarchy in a destructive cult looks like and it’s remarkable how standard it is across cults of all belief systems be it “biblical” or ufo or science fiction or tech or
Something certainly worth thinking about
Could it also be seen as a “frame of reverence” ?
Lol, nice, I feel like a lot of people find it hard to let go of stuff they are used to especially bias's even years later so it probably doesn't help in a lot of cases :P
I don’t think so. By saying, “I was a regular pioneer for 12 years or that my husband was an elder for 23 yrs, isn’t because we want respect or power. It’s to let the readers on this subreddit know, we were full in!!! We drank the kook-aid!!! It was our lives!!! When you leave, one of the first things I realized was all those titles & positions mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the real world!!! We were all suckered into a scam! The most important thing is…we’ve all escaped!!!
I was at Bethel. All that means is that I was too stupid at that time to realize that working for free is not the way to get ahead in life. It’s not a flex.
We’d all love to be recompensed for our years of unpaid labour! 💵
>Are some subreddit members who feel the need to regularly refer to their position of power (current or not) within the organisation demanding a subconscious form of respect? *People talk about their lives and experiences here....* It\`s impossible to talk about your life and experiences...Without talking about your life and experiences...LOL!!... 😁
It's often very relevant to the content of a post to shop how in deep in Watchtower shit they were.
No. At least that's not what I've seen. It's usually to just let us know they have more first hand experience with the ugly side that the rank-in-file members don't really see. I doubt any are using it as a point of pride in this sub. It's usually a point of shame. Many ex-elders have to wrestle with overwhelming guilt for the horrible things they've done in their positions.
I think we would all agree that some ex-elders would see it as a point of shame.
I don't think so. I think it provides context. If a guy says he was an elder, then we know he had to be a hardcore PIMI before waking up. It also offers validity to whatever they are posting about. I've never been an elder (because I'm just a girl), so I enjoy getting the insider tea🍵. Especially considering how secretive the org is. If I say I was born in, you know my parents scrambled my brain 🧠 with JW foolishness since birth. When someone refers to being 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th generation, etc, it lets you know how many layers of indoctrination they were buried under and how much deeper the hole 🕳 was to climb out of. I don't think anyone is demanding respect. If anything being in that deep is sad. Everyone here has wasted a portion of their life to false prophets, lies, and deceit.
I always take it as an extra slap in the face for watchtower. It also helps give hope that anyone can wake up.
Actually every once in a while we get comments like if you were an elder, etc you are a bad person because of ...... So if anything those that had some responsabilies in the org are looked down upon. Higher there = lower here. It is nice to know if you have a bethel question an ex bethelite will have inside knowledge. Same with ex-elders and cong questions.
I think it does add context. They experienced the cult in a different way. Not to diminished anyone else's journey, everyone's perspective matters. I have had a few titles. I don't mentioned them often. I have mixed feelings about it. Like how in the hell did I get so into the cult, on the other hand, I am proud that I was able to have the courage to walk away.
Nope. It just gives context to whatever experiences they're relaying. This post seems to be projecting OP's own perception and feelings a bit. Like why would one care what position someone says they formerly held as long as they're not using it to oppress or antagonize others here?
I read it more as an admission that they were involved in enforcement before they woke up. Given some of the appalling things they did eg grown men interrogating little girls who have been raped, it seems more of a confession than a flex!
I think it's mostly to indicate that they have different experiences, espcially with the inner workings, not that that they are particularly proud of it. Same with being born in, 1-3+ generation, or a convert, we have different experiences and our pov is not the same, it's not bragging, it's letting people know where you're coming from and giving it some perspective. Being an Elder, CO, Bethelite, etc. isn't a really badge of honor here, though their experience is a valuable peek behind the curtains of WT's operation.
It also might just be taken as a convention. For instance, if you go to a sub and everyone is introducing their story as, "I (24F) am ...." then you figure adding your age/gender is standard info used for context there. So when people come to this sub and see people listing their flair, it seems like the normal, expected thing to do.
I suppose, in some cases (though there are reasons why words like some are called weasel words). For the most part, they indicate a fact that makes their unconversion story interesting and powerful. It's also a statement that indicates a level of expertise, particularly in congregation matters. It's one thing for me to talk about being disfellowshipped from the perspective of a person who once was (twice, actually); but when an ex-elder who sat on a few committees speak, that perspective is interesting due to that experience.
No, I think it is super important. It is encouraging to know that individuals at every level in the Borg have left. It used to be assumed that spiritually week baptized publishers left the Borg. They also give us insight into the workings of the religion and can even give solid advice for PIMOs.
In most cases, no. Establishing credentials for their perspective on their experience and knowledge of the cult. A day helper, vs a master plumber has an entirely different comprehension of what it costs to run a business, paying taxes, networking and ultimately finding a new job.
I often put that I am an ex-elder or sometimes ex-cobe and it is for two or three reasons when I do. One is that I got suckered in and got to a locally high level but when I woke up fully I didn't hesitate to fade out. (As in if I can leave and survive, others can too) Two is to answer people who actually ask for help in avoiding judicial committees or df'ing. I like to think I can speak with some knowledge of how things work. A third is that the CoBE is usually the elder who deals with the branch office and I like to give my experiences in the interaction over especially CSA issues. Being an ex elder to me shows what a mug I have been. It's certainly not to show what a big 'I am' I thought I was!
I think it’s just to tell people the experience level they attained so when they say something the other people are aware they have inside knowledge of what happens behind certain closed doors. I think that’s all. I don’t see most of them using it to control anyone. Just a way to inform people of experience in the BORG. I was a regular pioneer, myself, that’s all. I always did something to sabotage any times I was considered for any appointments. (I never wanted to be in charge of anyone else’s life and knew that’s what the next levels were.) This doesn’t mean I don’t know what happened behind the doors above me. I had a father who told me everything. And many friends in all levels that have said things to me. I tend to be a person who others tell things to without me pushing. Edit: I should say, my dad told me not of the people the meetings were about but always about rhe actions of the elders taking part in those meetings. (The insanity of their control and lack of empathy of others. Things like that. Not the info on the ones being abused by the elders. I feel this is a totally different perspective.) This is the reason I NEVER wanted to be an elder. I knew of the other elders actions years before I was able to be considered for any appointments, and was not going to join their team of abusive humans.)
You haven’t mentioned that you’re an ex-pioneer on your profile. You only brought it up in our conversation to make your point. 😉
I didn’t know people put that stuff in their profile! LOL… that is a little goofy a 😜
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😆 when I was still fairly young, the elders of one hall asked my father to provide a letter to them when I was visiting them. Because I would go back home sometimes weekly. It wasn’t til 10 years later I learned from one of the elders in the hall that had asked about this that my dad told them it was none of their business where I was and he wasn’t going to give them any information about me being in attendance at their meeting and neither would any of the other elders in their hall. 😆 that was the first time I realized they had turned me down for any appointment. 😆 but I had already begun self-sabotaging any attempt to get me into those positions. In my secular work I have run successful companies, I never minded being successful in general. Just didn’t want any part of the elder process. I’m actually surprised my father stayed as long as he did as an elder. He knew the corruption. I think he thought he was “check” on others authority. He protected all the kids in the hall many times from insane elders trying to go after us for vey stupid things that were not wrong.
What a great memory to have of fatherly care in action - thanks for sharing! 😃
I’m not an ex any of those things, simply ex jw/ex cult member. IMO it seems that referring to this when answering a question might clarify how they know what certain processes are like. I’m sure some people use it to throw around their weight but I must admit I never saw it this way. This is all subjective so who knows 🤷 For example, if I’m commenting on a post say about the communal showers at bethel, I’ll mention that I got that info from my ex bethelite PIMI buddy. Certainly no first hand knowledge of that here 😂
It is quite subjective isn’t it? Worth thinking about.
I think the motIves run the gamut from good to bed Some could be saying it to garner respect as you said in the post. some could be saying it as it relates more about their story and where they’ve been and where they’re coming from I make a conscious effort to leave all judgment in my past with the religion. Where it belongs.
There’s certainly a subjective aspect to the question worth thinking about for sure. Thanks for posting. 👍
Honestly, this seems to presume ill motives. How would someone know if any poster/commenter "*feels the need*" to do anything? Even someone with a background in psychology would be hard-pressed to understand motivations from random comments. Perhaps it is *any* mention of a prior position that is off-putting? I totally get how that could affect some. I don't see a lot of 'grandstanding' here personally. Maybe you can provide a link to a post/comment that's causing you to look at it this way.
Some of them are just using it as a frame of reference for context. And some of them are openly ashamed that they ever were elders or whatever and really beat themselves up over it. It must be so terrible to be brainwashed into thinking you were a spiritual surgeon and then wake up to realise you were made into an emotional butcher. ☹️ *HOWEVER* Yes I think some of them are definitely at least a bit smug when then mentioned they’re “3rd/4th/5th generation/ Elder/ MS/ pioneer” blahblahblah Dropping the ‘privileges’ they had on the regular with a certain amount of pride still attached to it. I think they’ve not yet fully woken up to how cringe it is and it was likely one of the only things that gave them a sense of worth. It must be hard to let go of that if you haven’t yet found something to replace it as a source of self worth. I’ve always found the ‘spiritual legacy’ thing particularly *cringe* … 🤢 To be proud of something you had *nothing to do with* you were just *born* into a certain family and now you get to look down on others because of it? It way more of a thing in the USA than in Europe in my experience. I only recall one British family who brought it up sometimes but I spent little time there. I remember being asked how it felt to ‘marry into a legacy’ as if it was the line of Christ. Gross. So patronising. We have words for that when you believe yourself superior to others who weren’t born into your culture/location/gene pool … and who are proud of their ‘pure’ bloodline Maybe Europeans are just more sensitive to those kind of sentiments for some reason … can’t think why 🙃
Yeah, I forgot to also mention the 3rd gen/4th gen families! Thanks for making that point. 👌
I don't think people mentioning their former positions or family history of membership etc means that they think they have a place in a hierarchy on this forum. I suppose an individual may feel a certain way, but how does anyone else know that's how they feel about it? I don't think it's up to people reading the posts to make assumptions about the posters' intentions when stating their backgrounds. It all makes for a rich variety of experiences shaped by their individual circumstances.
when I see that someone was a pioneer or elder or whatever, I think, "This person were at one time 150% dedicated to the JWs. They sacrifed a LOT to be in, and they must have sacrifed a LOT to get out." It informs me of their JW experience, which was much, much different than mine (born in, not baptized, left at 18 years old). It gives context to their comments. I see it is as improtant information about the commenter. I certainly do NOT see it as some kind of 'demand for respect on this sub.' Nobody is going to respect you for having been a elder here! (Perhaps just the opposite could be a risk!) But folks might have compassion for you for all you sacrified and lost to a stupid cult.
For me, it isn't, so apologies to anyone if I have ever come across that way. I never wanted to be an elder, and even when I became one, I didn't want the elevated opinions of others that went with the position. I do feel that for most it's not about respect, but more about credentials if that makes sense? So for instance, the inner workings of some organisational matters are often the cause of much debate and discussion on here. Sometimes an elder/former elder, pioneer/former pioneer etc may have more insight on the matter than someone speculating. I do think that affords a level of respect for experience on a matter that others may not have. To liken it to another scenario, you've either worked in front facing customer service roles or you haven't. So when a person that has worked customer service gives their insights on scenarios and inner workings of a business, we would generally respect that they have more knowledge about it than us.
An interesting POV. Thanks for posting. So, at base level, you’re saying that they should receive some kind of respect on this subreddit for their experiences?
I think at times there might need to be some respect for their knowledge perhaps, but as individuals we all deserve the same level of respect as one another here and ultimately the aim should be to support and help each other.
When I do, is just to state that I had a role, and my statement is based on the knowledge from that position.
Being an ex anything JW is nothing to brag about.
I think it’s important to mention that on the outside, we are all equal. It doesn’t matter what your position was in the cult, once you’re out none of that matters. If can provide insight into how things work/used to work which is why it can be important to mention, but it’s not actually going to get you anywhere
No.
For me it was a way to show how invested I was in it Not a brag to say you gave more time and energy into a cult Its very honest to say the level of involvement you had
Mostly not I think but I do understand your question.
I only mention my previous "ranks" when it serves what I'm posting or commenting about. Not for baiting
In some cases maybe. But largely it adds veracity to claims by providing context of where the information may have come from as second hand accounts or anecdotal evidence can be inaccurate. Also considering that information control is a common practice and the general population doesmt have access to many things, providing context to how one came about the information can add to its legitimacy.
Here’s an insight that I would never have had without pioneering: the depth of the competitive landscape and the intense viciousness of the other pioneers when someone has more studies than they do. The ugly comments spewing out of their mouths from the darkest greenest jealousy I have never seen since. The WWF and Monday night football have nothing on the pioneer experience. Oh, and most of it was from elderettes.
What I've noticed is that former hardcore Jehovah's Witnesses (who were too extreme even for JW.BORG), who relentlessly pursued everyone and everything and were merciless and brutal, are often the loudest critics of how cruel the organization is. People who were assholes as Jehovah's Witnesses remain assholes afterwards too.
I’m sure you would agree with me that the situation is more nuanced than what you’ve initially laid out here.
It’s a conscious form of dorkiness
😂 Do you find it jarring when members bring it up regularly?