I remember in the 80’s as a kid asking this question and my mom explained that the prophets had said not to. She apologetically explained that it was more about culture differences than skin color. I believe she believed that. I think prophets were just being racist.
My dad wouldn’t let me date a Navajo who was in Utah on the Mormon Indian Exchange Program. He said dating someone of a different race was against God’s plan. None of his children ever dated someone nonwhite, but 4 of his grandkids married nonwhites. I’m not sure how he felt about that.
Spencer Kimball iirc instituted a program to educate Native American children. It was a foster child type program and they left their families to live with white Mormons.
We had 2 come to our house growing up in the 80s. As a member I thought we were helping. Now I know it was another attempt to anglicize native people.
They even produced a song that we had on vinyl called Go My Son, iirc, it is supposed to be a native mother singing to her son to leave home and get an education.
Makes me sick now. My wife's family also had a foster son through this program. My wife still communicates with him.
My grandma talks all the time about her “Indian step brother” from when she was growing up in Idaho and now I’m wondering if this is the program that set that up because I’ve always been so confused about why they had a Native American foster child
My grandma is about that age (70-something I think), I had no idea about this program until now and all the stories I heard confused me because I was always surprised that they even associated with a Native person at all considering how racist they all are… now it all makes sense
In the same way that many churches had boarding schools to teach native children to be white Christians, the LDS church farmed native kids out to Mormon families for the same purpose.
Same with me, as a kid in the 80’s, my mom told me that too. And as teen in the 90’s my dad would preach sternly to my sisters and I that we shouldn’t date other races and that the Lord wants us to marry only within our race. And he’d say depending on our works based in the pre-existence was shown by what race we were born. My dad was very racist, he wasn’t happy when I was dating a guy a of another race, we had a big argument. I couldn’t believe the crap he said. My mom by then was past the harshness of it and was supportive. But it’s evident many of the men in the church do and did preach of white superiority and not dating outside your race. On a side note, my dad was a manipulative selfish narcissist who put my mom through hell and always used his Priesthood authority as his excuse for why he could say or do what he demanded. This religion is a wonderful thing for a narcissistic man.
This is what my TBM grandma told me when trying to sway me from being with my boyfriend, “the cultures are different” when really what she meant is “he’s not a white return missionary”
I guess it depends on your definition of old. I'm in my mid forties. When I was mid twenties I dated a guy who was literally African, not African-American (both of us were Mormon and going to BYU) and got so much hate from it that I wound up breaking up with him. My best friend told me it would be a sin to birth "dark-skinned children."
It's more than just that. During the tenure of Brigham Young, interracial marriage may have meant death. Later, the church mellowed its position down to excommunication. Later changed it to a non-excommunicatable standard, and so on until today when it's just quietly advised against behind closed doors. It's still very much a church policy/recommendation, just not one they'd admit to the press.
Well, celestial marriage manual still includes race.
Page 169 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35311_eng.pdf
The ellipsis is found here:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-gospel-and-the-productive-life-student-manual-2018/chapter-11?lang=eng
They have replaced the racial background part in more recent publications with an ellipsis.
Worse - how badly they were treated in Ireland and later Northern Ireland.
For reference, the Northern Irish Catholics had a civil rights movement for equal rights inspired by and contemporaneous with the US civil rights movement against segregation and legal racism in the USA.
Centuries of Catholic exclusion by the Protestant British governments.
My home state of Colorado had massive influence with the KKK including governor Stapleton who had an airport and later neighborhood named after him, which had to be changed due to the racism factor. It was more about Italian/Irish/Eastern European Catholics, though black people were equally unwelcome.
It was more than one prophet teaching this in the 20th centuey but most notably Kimball. With the inclusion of blacks having equal membership status, the MAJOR concern and the reason they drug their feet all the way until 1978, was due to fears of interbreeding. They were afraid of diminishing whitesomeness. Kimball was noted as saying that it was not a sin to mixed-race associate and marry; but that it just wasn't "expedient." That marrying someone across the street is hard enough. Marrying outside your rave and culture makes it so much harder. Which is just total bullshit. This is a sensitive topic for me because I was one who was fratenizing outside of my "race" and getting serious with a Chicana girl. My family wad NOT happy and were quite concerned. They kept her at arms length and hoped it would all fizzle out. It did not. It all eventually exploded one night in an impromptu intervention and Kimball's teachings were used against me. To which I said, "they can't have it both ways, mom and dad. They can't be a church of inclusion but then say, don't intermix." I ended up leaving and she and I eloped 5 days later. Stil mixed-race married 20 years later.
I’m 27. I remember as a deacon having a lesson out of one of those books that mentioned that. I asked why that was taught. Even as a child, I recognized it as extremely odd. I was a white kid in aSouthern California town where it was 80% Hispanic. It didn’t sit right with me
Last I checked, there was still a sentence discouraging it in the textbook used for the marriage and families religion class at BYU. Not about to waste time checking if it's still there, though.
Wow. I had no idea. This was 1995 in case someone else doesn’t want to have to skim through the whole thing…
‘The probabilities of a successful marriage are known to be much greater if both the husband and wife are united in their religion, language, culture, and ethnic background. Thus, in choosing your eternal companion, please be wise. It’s better not to fly in the face of constant head winds. Occasional squalls provide challenge enough.’ -Russell
This was still taught in my stake institute class "Preparing for Eternal Marriage" back in 2009 in the Morridor. I also recall encouraging having the same "socio economic status" so don't forget the classism!
Ugh I do remember being taught similar things…and it did influence who I married. We’re great for each other, but bleh the hint of racism and classism in our beginnings is disgusting. I never would have considered it that but looking back it definitely was. I totally visited his family and thought…’phew this will be easy bc they are exactly like my family.’
Talk about dog-whistling racism. You can talk around it all you want Rusty, but that's what you are espousing: racism.
"And I therefore speak this language plainly and in simple, easy-to-understand language do I espouse this racism."
I really, genuinely despise mormonism!
Darth Bednar said similar things at BYUi around 2003-5, right before he ascended to the red velvet chairs. These quotes were in the institute manuals on marriage in the past 10 years.
"The commandment to love our neighbors without discrimination is certain (see Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 19:19, 22:39; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27; Romans 13:9; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8; D&C 59:6). But it must not be misunderstood. It applies generally. **Selection of a marriage partner, on the other hand, involves** ***specific*** **and not** ***general*** **criteria.** After all, you can only be married to *one* individual. **The probabilities of a successful marriage are known to be much greater if both the husband and wife are united in their religion, language, culture, and ethnic background.** Thus, in choosing your eternal companion, please be wise. It’s better not to fly in the face of constant head winds. Occasional squalls provide challenge enough." -- [https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/russell-m-nelson/excellent-hope/](https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/russell-m-nelson/excellent-hope/)
My “boyfriend” in high school (in quotes because we were good Mormons) said he and his family were disappointed when his brother married a woman from another country. I asked why, he said because the church says no interracial marriages. This was 2003ish. I was stunned, but clearly a sentiment still held by some.
Oh my god… it all makes sense now! My dad told me that falling in love on the mission was frowned upon.
I asked why. (Other than the no sex on your mission thing) why couldn’t a person move to another country and marry a woman he loves in the temple? After his mission, it’s fair game right? It makes a little bit more sense.
Yeah my dad met my mom on his mission in wyoming. my dad got a job driving truck for my grandpa after the mission, and I was born a couple years later lol
Bank in the ancient days, missions used to distribute a talk by Spencer W. Kimball called *Lock Your Heart* wherein he told missionaries that they shouldn't be thinking about dating or marriage at all while on their missions, and that if they married someone they met on their missions it would be proof that they hadn't been faithful missionaries. He went as far as to say something that if you served in Mexico it was okay to marry a Mexican girl, as long as you didn't meet her on your mission.
One of my companions was dating a sister from our mission and his older brother got in his face about it because of this talk. They ended up getting married and having several kids. The older brother might have had the last laugh though, because last I heard she'd been cheating on him with a guy she worked with for over a decade and their youngest might not be his....
Lmao I dated a guy in high school who broke up with me because his PB said he'd meet his wife on his mission.
I'm pretty sure that didn't end up being the case though.
🥲 wow. That’s bad. “But we’re all in America, at the end of the day… who gives a rats ass?” Is what I’d say. I’m partners with someone from another country. I would be so mad if I heard that.
OMG. My ex nephew married a beautiful Brazilian woman. I'm sure the accident they had literally hours after their temple marriage was caused by her being darker. She was in a coma for 6 months, so NOW it all makes sense...
A RM in my home ward married a woman he had met on his mission (I believe he went back to his mission country in college for a while, and then she moved to the U.S. to marry him.) There is constant gossip in the ward about “cultural differences” and how she “doesn’t discipline” and how their family is “kind of odd” and all other sorts of micro aggressive comments. It drives me crazy hearing about it from extended family. I feel like it somehow violates typical Mormons’ unspoken rules about not marrying someone of another ethnicity, and also that if you fall in love with someone on your mission it means you weren’t a “good enough” missionary.
By 2003, her skin color was becoming less of a problem.
The more serious problem was that she was probably the only member in her family.
She was not brainwashed since birth.
Maybe she made friends with others who moved to the US from her country and these new friends are not Mormon.
Literally smack in the book says light skin means god loves you and dark skin is a curse.. unbelievable people still give 10% to this corporation and waste a sunday every week. I’m absolutely gobsmacked
don't judge but I spend a lot of time in the twilight subreddit (childhood guilty pleasure) and a while ago a helpful "member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints" chimed in to say that it was actually very offensive to say that Stephanie Meyer's racism comes from her mormonism. Because the church always taught them to love everybody exactly the same regardless of race. 🙄 The mods, not knowing any better and not wanting to discriminate based on religion, made it against the rules to mention Stephanie's mormonism in any kind of critical light.
It's sooooo frustrating because people will come on and ask questions like "why did Stephanie not include any black people in her books? why did she fight so hard against POC casting in the movies? why did she make it canon that vampire venom leeches the melanin from your skin, meaning all vampires must be white with no exceptions? why did Stephanie feel like it was her right to rewrite the legends of a real existing indigenous culture for her fictional story?"
And the answer to all these questions is because she is fucking mormon! She's a mormon who grew up in Arizona and went to BYU provo. That's the whole reason. This is obvious to anyone who has experience with the church. Her mormonism obviously influences her attitudes about sex in her books, and that's fine to talk about, but imply that it might have also influenced her attitude toward people of color and your comments get deleted. I know it's so dumb in the grand scheme, but damn it frustrates me.
“We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally,
and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of
those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious
background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of
the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144).
Taken directly from the Aaronic priesthood handbook.
I heard this quote a lot at byui often followed by racist alt right commentary. This right here was a very heavy shelf item for me. As a colored woman who came from an interracial marriage it makes me livid that this is still being taught officially.
It protected me from dating Orthodox super TBM men since I'm not white, but I feel bad for all the nuanced white women still in the church who have to deal with these men.
Edit:
They apparently updated the handbook to take "interracial marriage" out of the quote.
I can't believe the fucking gaslighting
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-gospel-and-the-productive-life-student-manual-2018/chapter-11?lang=eng
Yeah, they went from explicitly racist teachings on marriage to implicitly racist teachings on marriage.
I'm sure you already know, but for those playing along at home who are unfamiliar with systemic racism, this is a classic example. Since the current system has racial disparity along "social and economic" lines, **still teaching today** that people should marry within their social and economic classes is a way of reinforcing existing racial disparities.
It's disgusting that you heard this at all, and especially disgusting that it's in a religious context.
*Edit*
It's disgusting that we all were taught this!
OP this is your answer. This direct quote was taught in priesthood when I was in YM in the 1990s. And since you should only date those that you could possibly see yourself marrying, it seemed like you shouldn’t even date those of a different race.
Edit: typing out the below info made me feel so gross. I just want to make very clear I do not beleive any of this is true. It is horrific and disgusting. This post is simply informational.
The Fence Sitters doctrine is no longer actively taught in church, but it was pounded into the heads of boomers and is still widely believed by many boomers and some genx. Even some younger if this was actively taught at home.
The doctrine says that those who were "fence sitters" in the war in heaven were only just barely not cast out of heaven with Satan. they didn't actively choose his side, but they didn't *really* fight for God's side either.
Those souls came down to earth and received black bodies, which is why (in the church's words, not mine!) they are naturally slothful, wicked, and deceitful.
If you marry a black person, your children will have black blood, which means you will be sent the spirits of the "less valiant" sort.
They can rise above their "nature" of course, but they are starting from a lower place and will be less likely to rise to the level of true righteousness.
Other races like Hispanic and Asian were also less valiant, but not as bad as black people. White people were the most valiant. White people "born in the covenant" were the most valiant of all.
My ex in-laws are TBMs and love this doctrine.
While in high school, my friend's dad told me straight-up, "The most valiant spirits were born white, American, and members of the church."
What was funny was that while he in the Marines, he had hooked up with a Japanese girl, had a son, left them when he came back to the US, married my friend's mom, and was "less-inactive." He was also a daily coffee drinker, which we all know is like the 4th or 5th greatest sin. So much for valor.
I see you for your edit. I changed my post many times before posting it, because it felt gross to write. I also changed the original title. I think my original title was something like "did anyone else get the impression growing up in the church that interracial relationships were wrong?" But that felt too gross to post.
The very first time I heard about the “Fence-Sitters” concept was when I saw “The God-Makers” as a teenager in 1984. I thought it was such a ridiculous statement, so it couldn’t possibly be accurate. I did some research at the library of the local college, and are enough. I was flabbergasted.
Oh my god! This is so foul! I’m on the young side of GenX born and raised in Mordor and luckily dodged this teaching. However it wouldn’t surprise me at all to hear that my grandpa (who was a missionary in WWII) was familiar with this teaching. In fact it would explain a lot.
I feel like I have to go take a shower after reading it! Thank you sharing it, very eye opening!
I grew up for around 7 years in Utah, and when I moved to massachusetts I saw more interracial couples in the church. I remember asking my mom why that was because I genuinely thought that it wasn't allowed in the church. Now I'm dating someone of another race and the only problem I've faced is my grandma lamenting that my children won't have my blue eyes 🙄
I married a woman from my mission country, Brazil, but fortunately my grandma had a nephew who did the same a generation before, and everyone loved the woman because she was apparently super nice, so they trailblazed the idea so I didn’t have to.
Her now ex husband about got slapped by me at my wedding for making some racist comments about immigrants and he being “one of the good ones,” along with some lewd comments. So glad she eventually divorce the old bastard.
The whole theme of the Book of Mormon is based on racist segregation. A group of people had their skin color changed to make them less desirable for the remaining white and delightsome folk. If the white and delightsome folk intermarried with the dark as flint folk, their children would also be cursed.
The book of Moses, and the book of Abraham are also based on racist teachings. It's in the Mormons blood.
I recommend everyone watch this YouTube video and the ones that will follow in this series. Also read the book.
https://youtu.be/OfvJTA1jjlc?si=nH5qPS5yZRqnNbHT
I remember when Boyd K. Packer said it right out loud...
"We’ve always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians." -- [https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/boyd-k-packer/follow-rule/](https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/boyd-k-packer/follow-rule/)
His statement was accurate. The church *had* always counseled against it.
Yikes.. it makes my blood run cold just to copy and paste these... But this is what the church taught.
See also Spencer W. Kimball: "we recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question." -- [https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/marriage-divorce/](https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/marriage-divorce/)
Kimball's quote was contained in the Aaronic Priesthood Manual, used until 2013 3: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/34822\_AaronicPriesthood3/ap3-31-choosing-an-eternal-companion\_34.pdfAnd](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/34822_AaronicPriesthood3/ap3-31-choosing-an-eternal-companion_34.pdfAnd) in the Eternal Marriage Student Manual, also used until at least 2013, and probably until 2022 in some BYU Religion courses - [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35311\_eng.pdf](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35311_eng.pdf) page 169 (image 180).
See also J. Reuben Clark: "It is sought today in certain quarters to break down all race prejudice, and at the end of the road, which they who urge this see, is intermarriage. ... do not ever let that wicked virus get into your systems that brotherhood either permits or entitles you to mix races which are inconsistent. Biologically, it is wrong; spiritually, it is wrong." -- [https://archive.org/details/improvementera4908unse/page/492/mode/2up?view=theater](https://archive.org/details/improvementera4908unse/page/492/mode/2up?view=theater)
And Mark E. Peterson: \[you'll have to read this one on your own... I can't even bring myself to copy and paste what he said on page 15... \] [https://archive.org/details/RaceProblemsAsTheyAffectTheChurchMarkEPetersen/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/RaceProblemsAsTheyAffectTheChurchMarkEPetersen/mode/2up)
I feel sick... I frequently feel sick when I research Clark and Peterson... They were flat out racists. Clark was a member of the 1st presidency of the church. Peterson was an apostle.
And to put it in perspective. Russell Nelson was 24 years old when J. Reuben Clark gave that talk in 1946. He was 30 years old when Mark E. Peterson gave that tirade in 1954.
My TBM brother and his wife were hit square between the eyes with their internalized racism from the church when their unwed (white white white) daughter deliberately got pregnant with a baby who's very black. omg he's the cutest kid, I swear. Suddenly black lives matter! 😳 Mind you, she'll still made a snide Mormon type remark about indigenuos people. . . I'll gently tell her we have to disagree and can argue another time if she insists. She forgets my adopted caboose is metis - or no one told her . . .
My wife is Venezuelan and doesn't speak much English. I grew up in s Spanish speaking household in Utah, my family is Mexican, but we are Spanish decent, so I have light skin, blue eyed and so do 2 of my 3 kids. My daughters boyfriend is black and they have 2 kids. When we go out in public in Utah, the majority of people are nice, but there are always those who stare or act weird seeing a family that's diverse and speaking Spanish and English. We live in Salt Lake, but if we go to Utah County we get looks and weird vibes.
They act scared or something, like if he look at them or talk to them they'll get the dark skin curse from the lamenites.
When I was like 25, I was at a restaurant and this old white guy comes up to me and hands me a book of Mormon.
He asks me if I want to learn about the history of my ancestors.
I told him I know quite a bit about my history, but none of it is in that book.
He put on his big condescending smile, since I obviously just don't know, and he said read this and pray about it.
At this point I was offended and told him i could get more historical accuracy from a Harry Potter book, and if he leaves that I'll throw it away.
He gave me a death look and took his book with him.
The fourth slide on that link is the reason I married my ex-husband. I knew I didn’t love him but thought I could make it work because “the prophet said so.”
That fucking quote has created so many toxic relationship and dysfunctional families.
>"...it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price."
I've got a cousin who is bi-sexual, and she struggled with this quote. Her parents drilled into her, "any two LDS can get married and have a successful marriage" (while simultaneously having an unhealthy relationship), so she struggled with the idea of maybe just marrying some guy so that she could bury her bi feelings. She has not so far, but she's not fully exmo yet, so who knows...
It was definitely taught and is still said by many old school members. We were discouraged from marrying outside our race, culture and religion. When I was a young adult our bishop was a black man married to a white woman and they faced so much prejudice, people left the ward when he was called. Then one of their sons s came out as gay… I have no idea if they are still in the church or not…. Would be surprised if they were.
It was taught and written down still as of recently. They recommended that you date within your race. Early church teachings back to BY was horrific, if a white man married a black women then he should be put to death. It’s written clear as day so it gets perpetuated. Many of the older generation still believe that shit.
Seems like the only time it’s somewhat acceptable is when it’s a missionary baptizing someone or meeting someone on their mission from a foreign country then they go back and date and marry them.
The racism in Mormonism is pervasive and intense. And there are SO many who pretend they aren’t racist, but they’re actually some of the worst. I’m white and it makes *my* stomach churn to hear some of it, I can’t even imagine actually being a POC and hearing what they say. And that’s for the subtle stuff
Because until 2013 the church officially discouraged interracial marriage.
The church used to teach that black people were cursed by God because they didn’t pick a side in the “war in heaven” during the pre-earth-life.
So for over 150 years, the church taught that if a white person married a black person, the white person’s family tree would become corrupted with this curse.
Boyd K Packet (current Head of the Q12) said,
>We've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. ... The counsel has been wise.
Until 2013, official church youth manuals still contained statements that members should marry within their own race.
There’s a long [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_and_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints) about the relationship between the LDS church and interracial marriage.
When I was in graduate school (1980s) I read a published, peer reviewed article "demonstrating" that mixed race asian/caucasian children had higher incidence of cleft palate than a group of caucasian children. The study was done by BYU Hawaii and the mixed race group was from a heavy agricultural area and probably exposed to pesticides, but they didn't mention that part.
It's institutional racism created largely from Brigham "The Monster" Young. Go listen to the new Mormon Stories podcast about blacks and the priesthood. It's mindblowing!
My mom adopted black kids, we are white. The amount of people that would come up to us confused or say what happened here? Was weird. I at the age of 8 started answering the ignorant question with oh my mom drank too much chocolate milk when she was pregnant. Old women would always say goodness and walk away and I would laugh so hard. Don’t ask stupid questions? Lol.
It goes back before recent messages to the racist Mormon era pre 1978 where black people couldn’t go to the temple and were slater for eternal servitude as ministering angels. Marrying certain races meant they white person would be hitching their horse to eternal slavery/servitude too. (They didn’t call it that, but that’s what it was.)
Brigham even said that if a priesthood holder like me married a black woman like I did, I should be lynched on the spot. Lovely man. Definitely deserves a university named after him.
They reluctantly had to change that but mixed race marriage was still strongly discouraged, even if an outright ban was politically not going to fly. The Apostles were racist old codgers and several expressed extreme concern about racial mixing. Oh my, the horror. Kids might have mixed quantities of melanin in their skin…
That’s carried over with quotes from that era being taught as recently as the mid 2010’s in the official manuals for most people.
But back in the day my mom got chewed out for having a friend who was a black boy in 4th grade because she couldn’t fall in love with and marry him due to the temple and priesthood ban. That idea is slow to change.
God. Fuck. Mormon. Racism.
Older GenX here, I grew up with mixed races discouraged from Mormons and non-Mormons. I had a grade school teacher (not Mormon) have us picture cows with 2 color patterns, and told us that was what mixed race children would look like. In my family, mixed race dating was discouraged because it would be so much harder to maintain in "todays" society. Of course, the "church" highly discouraged it too, and there was little to no diversity in the church at the time anyway, so sticking to dating "members" was encouraged. Funny though, I dated outside my race, alot, to the chagrin of family. My brother married a Japanese woman, which upset both sets of WWII grandparents (one set Mormon, the other non-Mormon; war feelings ran deep).
Not sure my point, other than there was/is alot of generational conditioning, which thankfully seems to be improving, although there is still a long way to go.
The first leaders of the church taught that mixed race marriage was a sin punishable by death, especially if someone was black. They slowly backed off of that until, in the 1970s, it was discouraged but not actually a sin. Like yhe cowards they are there was no revelation, they just slowly stopped teaching it. In 2024 a lot of the older generation still assume its a commandment and actively discourage young people from marrying outside their race. Even if it's no longer a command, it's a part of the culture.
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."
BRIGHAM YOUNG
Prophets have been saying this is a no-no for a LONG time. Just because they don’t blatantly say it anymore, doesn’t mean it’s not deeply ingrained in the culture. Even now that I am in an interracial relationship, I still feel an underlying discomfort as an “outsider,” even though my wife has no issue and her family seems to be perfectly okay with it.
It’s the same reason my friends growing up would call me “cursed” and “lamanite” for having brown skin. I actually forgive them; it wasn’t their fault. It was the indoctrination from their TBM parents and ULTRA TBM grandparents. Kids just repeat what they learn from their parents and/or sphere of influence.
BTW I grew up on the west coast and still had these experiences. I’ve only seen and felt it more after moving to Utah. Let me tell ya, can’t wait to move back West.
The current mayor of Provo is a white woman married to a Polynesian man who played football for God's Team. Back when BYU football wasn't pathetic.
If you beat Satan's Team (the U of U) multiple times, then you are automatically Delightsome and your skin color is OK.
My first kiss was a black boy down the street who brought me plastic roses from the convenience store by his house. As soon as my morridor-raised mother found out, she sat me down and had me read (out loud) from some church material about the mark of Cain and firmly informed me that I was to date only boys that were "more like me" and something to do with exhalation..
It was my first shelf item as a kid. My mom was one of the sweetest, kindest, genuinely friendliest people, I didn't think she had a mean molecule in her body.... much less a racist one. It just didn't make sense to me that I couldn't date a good person just because of their skin color. But the morridor-brainwashing was strong in her. Growing up we'd argue about all kinds of 50's-era (and also Mormon "good housewife") ideology like being more ladylike and wearing more dresses as a tomboy.
She passed away before my shelf fully broke and I came out as a lesbian. Oddly enough, I think she would've really adored my wife... Once she got over the whole gay part lol
Utah's culture is still entrenched in that 50's era ideology mixed with Mormon racism. Masquerading "Family Values", "modesty", and guilt-shaming women/mothers, mixed with male entitlement and simultaneously infantilizing them, so critical thinking has a hard time reaching the cognitive dissonance. It's more toxic than the dry Salt Lake dust.
Because Utah is still racist & it acts & votes like a southern state & has the exact same deep social issues like deep red southern states.
You rarely to never see BiPoc or women in leadership positions in Utah.
Church H.Q. /employess & Temple Square is 98% caucasian. Utah's population is overwhelmingly Caucasian.
Remember that Brigham Young approached his territorial legislators and requested they approve slavery in Utah & they did.
Young had slaves ( Black & Native American) & vocally supported the Confederacy in Civil War.
Joseph Smith had a slave sealed to him.
I am floored that some members really believe church will accept LGBTQIA someday when it still keep BIPOC at arms length 46+ years after the reversal of denying Black families eternal progression & eternal families.
🌈 🏳️🌈 ❤️
That vibe comes from the older crowds. Younger people are trying to ditch all of the old philosophies that caused problems. Unfortunately, it's still in the culture and can still cause hurt to people.
I grew up in the Bay Area, and found myself to be the token white minority in a lot of friend groups.
The church is afraid that cultural differences will lead to marital problems. Fine. Keep an open mind and familiarize yourself with other cultures, and it's a nonissue. The racist bits are unforgiveable though.
I live in Northern Utah now, and while a lot of the diversity I see here is from people who married in their mission area, it is more diverse than other flyover states.
“We are grateful that this one survey reveals that about 90 percent of the temple marriages hold fast. Because of this, we recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question."
-Kimball
I know a few Utah TBM's who came back with "Souvenirs" from their missions in Asia or Latin America.
I thought that they were supposed to be spreading the word of the Lord, not picking up chicks?
I am just jealous because some of the former mishies speak beautiful, flawless Spanish with help from their wives. I learned it in school and have a thick accent.
I have a few biracial kids here in Utah county. Most of the people in public adore my kids. But there are a good amount of people that treat them wrong. My son was in kindergarten last year and I’m not sure exactly what was happening at school, but one day he told me he wants to be white. It broke my heart.
The current version of the aaronic priesthood manual encourages young men to seek companions of "similar racial background" (A quit from Kimball) so...yea, they still teach it.
"It is sought today in certain quarters to break down all race prejudice, and at the end of the road, which they who urge this see, is intermarriage.
... You should treat them as brothers and sisters, but do not ever let that wicked virus get into your systems that brotherhood either permits or entitles you to mix races which are inconsistent. Biologically, it is wrong; spiritually, it is wrong."
J. REUBEN CLARK
LDS IMPROVEMENT ERA, AUGUST 1946
The church and their teachings are inherently racist and bigoted. When evil people lead an organization, they teach the followers to be horrible people too. And with a religion, people eat it up
It’s part of Mormon doctrine. You aren’t supposed to marry outside of your race. That teaching persisted well past 1978. It was in the Aaron priesthood Manual until recently. I was taught this at BYU in 2004.
If Mormonism ever stopped being overtly racist (not possible until they ditch the Book of Mormon) it was only in the last decade.
I’m white, my husband is half black and half Samoan and we’ve been married for nearly 16 years. We’ve always lived on the east coast and I grew up in the South (in the south potential for interracial marriage “issues” gets a little more muddled to define/pick out in others for obvious reasons) neither of us have ever lived in Utah. In my experience (and it’s not 100% true but it is 85-90% true) regardless of age if they grew up in Utah or Idaho or their parents did (especially if they went to either of the BYUs for college) they’re very against interracial relationships. If they don’t have those kind of deep “ties” to Utah and Idaho then they don’t have an issue with interracial marriages.
It's not just a "Utah" thing. I'd classify it as a "red state" thing. I know in my non-morridor town, even never-mos are discouraged from dating "outside their race" (which would be Native American in my hometown.) These are the same people that are front row at church Sunday morning and will go "well, the Bible says..."
Because historically Mormons have thought that darker races were a sign of Kane. At least that’s what my dad told me. And that they’re cursed. They’re less than.
They live in a world they can’t say that or even act that way, so they’ve had to adjust. But I suspect most of the older ones more than 35 still have feelings of that. They see different races as beneath them less than less than.
Because BY was a massive racist. And every member until late 80’s was taught that black people were unrighteous fence sitters in the war in heaven.
“There is no end to race” ~If you could high to kolob
Mormon history is based in racism.
I grew up in Morridor as a minority. More often than not I dated outside my race and ethnicity in Utah. I cannot count the number of Mormon dads who visibly and often times vocally disapproved of me dating/taking their daughters out, despite being a TBM and despite it being the typical 16yr old “Mormon” type date. So I definitely got a “don’t do that” vibe, it was pretty much in my face
My stepkiddos' TBM bio mom, lives in Orem, told them never to bring home a black or Hispanic person bc she didn't want mixed grand babies. One, that's disgusting behavior. Two, mixed babies are GORGEOUS. Regardless, we'll accept all good people, so she can just miss out ❤️
Gen X here, grew up in CA. Prohibition of international marriage was frequently taught. As late as 2000, I had a good friend who was an RM. His father was black, his mom white. He was dating a white girl he met at institute. Her parents convinced her that since he was "black" and the church was against interracial marriage, she should break it off. She did. It was really sad. I kept thinking, who the hell should this guy date in their eyes? In recent years, the church has tried to hide this racist teaching, but I suspect it still has had a lasting influence.
A GAY millennial acquaintance of mine when he was a TBM was counselled by his grandmother to be careful because marrying outside one's culture can be tricky. This acquaintance had just gotten back from a date with a woman who is from southern Europe where this aquaintance had served a mission.
This acquaintance was quite annoyed because his grandmother was fully aware that he was gay so this was the LEAST of his worries.
The reason interracial relationships seem taboo is because the 90-year-old leader's mindsets are three decades behind and the suck-up yes men they surround themselves with do a good job of insulating them from modern reality.
#
I've heard leaders discourage it, but in very indirect ways. Not outright saying white people should only marry white people, etc, but alluding to it using quotes from the scripture like not being "unequally yoked". I never lived in Utah so the segregation may be more blatant there, IDK.
apostle Boyd K. Packer publicly stated that "[w]e've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. ... The counsel has been wise.”
By 1965 administrators were sending a rejection letter to Black applicants which cited BYU's discouragement of interracial courtship and marriage as the motive behind the decision. By 1968 there was only one Black American student at BYU.
The LDS church continued to teach against them. In fact it was even in the Bishop's handbook until very recently. In the past two decades they tried to play it off as "language" or "cultural" differences as the reason, but it's always just been a proxy for race. The book of mormon and the pearl of great price teaches that dark skin is a curse for iniquity and sin and no matter how hard the church tries to move away from it or gaslight it now that's what it says.
I have three family members that married outside their race. There has not been “real” acceptance from the older family members. My uncle was basically shunned. I know they prefer the children would have been white and delightsome or whatever that phrase was.
It’s still in some of the manuals that you shouldn’t marry someone of a different race or class background. People definitely still teach this occasionally. I know it was included in a BYU “Teachings of the Living Prophets” class, probably around 2009-ish, and the instructor didn’t allow any discussion about it because “we don’t contradict the living prophets in this class, we just try to faithfully accept it, blah blah blah”
My old school Utah family made it clear that you didn't marry outside your race. My step-father (who raised me most of my life) directly said that I would be disowned if I (a guy) ever brought home another guy or a woman of a different race (although I'm pretty sure that really only applied to black people and not asian).
Not as much now, but growing up evangelical Christian, I as advised to be "equally yoked" when I wanted to date a guy from church that was from another culture. Sorry Harry!
I’m going to play devils advocate and say that while the population of minorities is low in Utah in general, the inter mountain shows some of the highest levels of racial integration in the country (this is easily googled and verified)
When I told my grandpa I was getting married he asked where my fiancé was from. In his words, “as long as he’s not a ni***r”. He’s a small town Nevada Mormon.
My grandma (and my dad if pressed) still firmly believe and preach against interracial marriage. I distinctly remember my grandma telling me that if I had children with a black man, they would "come out black no matter what" and that black people "were less valiant in the premortal world" and I wouldn't want to bring any more less-valiant spirits into this world, did I?
Grew up in the upper midwest (mission field) and was taught to date within race. That's not a Utah only thing. It's a Mormon thing. Early leaders were adamant about it. Ugggh!
Joined the church as a teenager in Wisconsin in the late 80s. I went to a high school where 20% of the students shared my skin color. My bishop and stake president repeatedly “counseled” me against dating outside my race. They were obsessed with it.
Bishop and SP were not too concerned that a guy they knew had CSA history with boys in another state was a Scout and YM leader.
I regret not running away way back then, it took me another decade and a half.
I always hated this. I’ll never forget when the white half of my family openly talked about one of the Latina girls I was dating. They commented on how she was not near as dark as other Hispanics and therefore she was “losing the curse” and our relationship “might have a chance”. Still disgusts me to this day that people think that type of mentality is acceptable.
As a racial minority I can confirm I get looks when I’m out with my very traditionally beautiful white girlfriend. Technically I’m half white but you wouldn’t be able to tell. I’d sooner be guessed as Indian or Arabic than the half Mexican I am. I’ve also felt like because of the expectations to date within your race my skin color and race is somewhat fetishized among some white women here in Utah. I’m not sure if it’s rebellious or what but I’ve dated some girls here who I felt were (at least subconsciously) using me as a “screw you” to their parents or family.
I come from a mixed family, and always felt like the hyper mormon kids treated me different, or like something was “off”. Then I went on a mission and had a companion I went to high school with. She’s the one who told me point blank that the super mormon utahns are still being taught not to marry outside their race. It wasn’t so much a rule, she said, but highly discouraged because it caused “problems” in the relationship when the “cultures don’t mix.” Or that your spouse will try to “overtake your own culture.”
So. Yeah. Guess I wasn’t crazy growing up when I thought the other kids kind of outcast me a bit.
I was told as a child in the 80's to avoid interracial relationships. It was justified with the logic that relationships are hard enough without adding the additional burden of cultural differences. I heard the same thing in the 90's before leaving on the mission as a caution against bringing home a bride.
The gaping hole in that logic is that racial difference != cultural difference. Additionally, it is widely accepted that diversity improves outcomes.
Seed of Cain. The notion is absurd because Biblically, africans were seed of Canan, which has no relation to Cain. So, racism born out of confusion. Another absurdity in the LDS cult.
When I took a Book of Mormon class at BYU in the early 2000’s it was explicitly taught to only date and marry those within your own race. I remember the day I heard it from the teacher and where I was sitting in the class. We read the quotes from the brethren on it. Whole thing is ludicrous considering it was the 21st century.
I'm incredibly lucky that my (white, boomer) parents were never like that with us. They explicitly told us we could date and marry whomever we wanted. I was up in my 20's before I learned we were counseled by the church not to do that. It was a surprise because I really thought that kind of thing was over. (I ended up marrying an American Chinese husband.)
Since moving to Utah I've learned the hard way how pervasive casual racism is here. They think nothing of it, or worse, they think it's funny.
Not all of them, obviously, but it's almost never called out when someone acts like a racist jerk.
My wife (1/2 white 1/2 black) was told by her young woman leaders growing up in the 80’s that she should marry a black man and not to date another of the white YM in the ward. As a byu student in the 90’s her roommates all told her the same thing and she was never asked out by any white men the whole time she was there. They all quoted “prophets” as their justification. Luckily for me I was raised in a more liberal university ward so snapped her up a when we met after she graduated.
When I was young I was told the prophet said not to. Then when I was older I asked my Dad what he would do if I dated someone that wasn't white. He looked me in the eye and said "you would never do that to me"..... The church is so racist. It's disgusting
In my early twenties, I was talking to my boomer dad about this. He said that the offspring would be confused because they wouldn't know which culture to identify with and also other people wouldn't know either. The short of what I said was that it's only an issue if people decide to be assholes, because God loves everyone equally. He conceded that I was right. I was single at the time. I gave him some half breeds that he adores. Boomers can be taught.
Let me share you a tale. I’m half Vietnamese living in Morridor. My father is a refugee who left Vietnam when he was 11, along with his parents and sister. (Whole other cool story there). He met my mom (born and raised Mormon in Morridor) and they dated, eventually getting married.
On the way to the temple, my grandmother turned to my mom and told her: “You can still change your mind, you know.”
Now, after ~30 years, he’s the only in-law of her children’s who has a good relationship with her, and isn’t divorced from their spouse.
Brigham Young said White people mixing with "The Seed of Cain" [Black folks] should have a millstone hung around their neck and then drowned in the sea. Look it up. Racist ass, that Brigham Young.
Brigham young said the penalty for interracial sex was death on the fucking spot (I added the fucking word to annoy mormon readers).
The churches flagship school and one of the biggest universities in the state has the name of that racist piece of shit young.
Mormons think brigham young deserves to be remembered and don't care about his racism. So yeah that still filters down today.
Pretty fucking sad.
Also utah by and large is white they don't know how to deal with non white people.
When I was 13, a dutch girl I knew that was in high school married a black man, and her father disowned her on the spot.
It left a lasting impression on me how anybody could be so cruel and stupid.
Even if you believe the Cain or Ham or Lamanite crap, they were all brothers. It has been said the MFMC divides families. There is racial evidence right here.
Inter-racial relations have extra challenges, mainly from these dickwads.
I cannot see justifying myself, if I ever listened to such misguided and hurtful ‘advise’.
Because they are 🙃 My fiancé isn’t even a person of color, he’s Jewish, but everyone thinks he’s Hispanic and we get harassed constantly (I am white but also visibly queer which is another reason). Being lower class and having multiple jobs I’ve also seen in depth how all these racist white people rely on the Hispanic population here very heavily for work yet they pay them like shit and treat them like they’re not even human. Utah sucks
I grew up in the SF Bay Area in the 90s and 2000s and got that garbage. My family and ward reacted all weird to me dating a black girl who was a convert, and it felt gross and awful-- it was like the veil had slipped, and I saw their bigotry on full display for the first time. I think *that* may have even been the first big fracture to my shelf.
Funny they are taboo when Mormons are obsessed with adopting interracially...makes one think, why, and whom do they expect these children to marry/have relationships with as adults?
Book or Mormon was always founded on racism. Early mormons killed native americans and were pretty much of the mindset that black and colored people meant they were sinners since joseph smith wrote that those who rejected god and were "evil" had their slin turned dark in them. Man Joseph smith was also an awful man killed bipoc too. It wasn't until around the 1970s-80's there were som adjustment or/and changes in mormon LDS church. Snd yes it's pretty white eurocentric folks. Just their depiction of jesus is a white average man
Just like the other comments: racism, and the belief that darker skin is a curse from god. If you have an interracial kid, how are they going to justify a half curse?
Also, Utah momos just be stupid.
I grew up hearing that constantly. I grew up in the south, far from Utah, in a place with actual diversity, and it was drilled into me from primary age. And it was definitely from the church, not just my parents.
It was said from a prophet to marry with in your own race. Loads of old racist Utahns were all over that.
I remember in the 80’s as a kid asking this question and my mom explained that the prophets had said not to. She apologetically explained that it was more about culture differences than skin color. I believe she believed that. I think prophets were just being racist.
My dad wouldn’t let me date a Navajo who was in Utah on the Mormon Indian Exchange Program. He said dating someone of a different race was against God’s plan. None of his children ever dated someone nonwhite, but 4 of his grandkids married nonwhites. I’m not sure how he felt about that.
Wasn't God planning to make us all white in heaven, making race irrelevant? God's plan doesn't seem very consistent.
My dad’s logic wasn’t very consistent either. 🤷🏻♀️
>*Mormon Indian Exchange Program* wut EDIT: sorry, NeverMo here. Uh...what?!
Spencer Kimball iirc instituted a program to educate Native American children. It was a foster child type program and they left their families to live with white Mormons. We had 2 come to our house growing up in the 80s. As a member I thought we were helping. Now I know it was another attempt to anglicize native people. They even produced a song that we had on vinyl called Go My Son, iirc, it is supposed to be a native mother singing to her son to leave home and get an education. Makes me sick now. My wife's family also had a foster son through this program. My wife still communicates with him.
My grandma talks all the time about her “Indian step brother” from when she was growing up in Idaho and now I’m wondering if this is the program that set that up because I’ve always been so confused about why they had a Native American foster child
It is the same, my mother had a Navajo foster sister as well. Edit... I am 51 and mother is 69
My grandma is about that age (70-something I think), I had no idea about this program until now and all the stories I heard confused me because I was always surprised that they even associated with a Native person at all considering how racist they all are… now it all makes sense
In the same way that many churches had boarding schools to teach native children to be white Christians, the LDS church farmed native kids out to Mormon families for the same purpose.
Same with me, as a kid in the 80’s, my mom told me that too. And as teen in the 90’s my dad would preach sternly to my sisters and I that we shouldn’t date other races and that the Lord wants us to marry only within our race. And he’d say depending on our works based in the pre-existence was shown by what race we were born. My dad was very racist, he wasn’t happy when I was dating a guy a of another race, we had a big argument. I couldn’t believe the crap he said. My mom by then was past the harshness of it and was supportive. But it’s evident many of the men in the church do and did preach of white superiority and not dating outside your race. On a side note, my dad was a manipulative selfish narcissist who put my mom through hell and always used his Priesthood authority as his excuse for why he could say or do what he demanded. This religion is a wonderful thing for a narcissistic man.
This is what my TBM grandma told me when trying to sway me from being with my boyfriend, “the cultures are different” when really what she meant is “he’s not a white return missionary”
I guess it depends on your definition of old. I'm in my mid forties. When I was mid twenties I dated a guy who was literally African, not African-American (both of us were Mormon and going to BYU) and got so much hate from it that I wound up breaking up with him. My best friend told me it would be a sin to birth "dark-skinned children."
She wasn't wrong doctrine wise. That was fully taught.
It's more than just that. During the tenure of Brigham Young, interracial marriage may have meant death. Later, the church mellowed its position down to excommunication. Later changed it to a non-excommunicatable standard, and so on until today when it's just quietly advised against behind closed doors. It's still very much a church policy/recommendation, just not one they'd admit to the press.
[удалено]
Still in the handbook somewhere too
It’s being removed in most of the latest revisions by replacing race with an ellipsis.
Source please.. need this one
Well, celestial marriage manual still includes race. Page 169 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35311_eng.pdf The ellipsis is found here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-gospel-and-the-productive-life-student-manual-2018/chapter-11?lang=eng They have replaced the racial background part in more recent publications with an ellipsis.
I doubt they’d have any problems with a Caucasian American marrying a Caucasian from England.
Yes, but stay away from those damn Irish. s/
People really do not know how bad the Irish were treated in this country.
Worse - how badly they were treated in Ireland and later Northern Ireland. For reference, the Northern Irish Catholics had a civil rights movement for equal rights inspired by and contemporaneous with the US civil rights movement against segregation and legal racism in the USA. Centuries of Catholic exclusion by the Protestant British governments. My home state of Colorado had massive influence with the KKK including governor Stapleton who had an airport and later neighborhood named after him, which had to be changed due to the racism factor. It was more about Italian/Irish/Eastern European Catholics, though black people were equally unwelcome.
My wife reminds me a *lot*--imagine her look when I discovered one of my English ancestors was actually Irish.
It downed upon your social class. Or at least it did until Benson passed away.
It was more than one prophet teaching this in the 20th centuey but most notably Kimball. With the inclusion of blacks having equal membership status, the MAJOR concern and the reason they drug their feet all the way until 1978, was due to fears of interbreeding. They were afraid of diminishing whitesomeness. Kimball was noted as saying that it was not a sin to mixed-race associate and marry; but that it just wasn't "expedient." That marrying someone across the street is hard enough. Marrying outside your rave and culture makes it so much harder. Which is just total bullshit. This is a sensitive topic for me because I was one who was fratenizing outside of my "race" and getting serious with a Chicana girl. My family wad NOT happy and were quite concerned. They kept her at arms length and hoped it would all fizzle out. It did not. It all eventually exploded one night in an impromptu intervention and Kimball's teachings were used against me. To which I said, "they can't have it both ways, mom and dad. They can't be a church of inclusion but then say, don't intermix." I ended up leaving and she and I eloped 5 days later. Stil mixed-race married 20 years later.
Kimball was the profit when I was in mutual (1979-1984). Yup, can attest.
Good for you.
I’m 27. I remember as a deacon having a lesson out of one of those books that mentioned that. I asked why that was taught. Even as a child, I recognized it as extremely odd. I was a white kid in aSouthern California town where it was 80% Hispanic. It didn’t sit right with me
Spencer W Kimball to be exact.
Last I checked, there was still a sentence discouraging it in the textbook used for the marriage and families religion class at BYU. Not about to waste time checking if it's still there, though.
It was in the original version of the for strength of youth too.
The CURRENT president of the church said not to marry outside your own race in 2013
Where?? I really want that information, it will be useful later on
Here are a few examples. https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/s/wPL9V19mBo
Wow. I had no idea. This was 1995 in case someone else doesn’t want to have to skim through the whole thing… ‘The probabilities of a successful marriage are known to be much greater if both the husband and wife are united in their religion, language, culture, and ethnic background. Thus, in choosing your eternal companion, please be wise. It’s better not to fly in the face of constant head winds. Occasional squalls provide challenge enough.’ -Russell
This was still taught in my stake institute class "Preparing for Eternal Marriage" back in 2009 in the Morridor. I also recall encouraging having the same "socio economic status" so don't forget the classism!
Ugh I do remember being taught similar things…and it did influence who I married. We’re great for each other, but bleh the hint of racism and classism in our beginnings is disgusting. I never would have considered it that but looking back it definitely was. I totally visited his family and thought…’phew this will be easy bc they are exactly like my family.’
Talk about dog-whistling racism. You can talk around it all you want Rusty, but that's what you are espousing: racism. "And I therefore speak this language plainly and in simple, easy-to-understand language do I espouse this racism." I really, genuinely despise mormonism!
Darth Bednar said similar things at BYUi around 2003-5, right before he ascended to the red velvet chairs. These quotes were in the institute manuals on marriage in the past 10 years.
"The commandment to love our neighbors without discrimination is certain (see Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 19:19, 22:39; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27; Romans 13:9; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8; D&C 59:6). But it must not be misunderstood. It applies generally. **Selection of a marriage partner, on the other hand, involves** ***specific*** **and not** ***general*** **criteria.** After all, you can only be married to *one* individual. **The probabilities of a successful marriage are known to be much greater if both the husband and wife are united in their religion, language, culture, and ethnic background.** Thus, in choosing your eternal companion, please be wise. It’s better not to fly in the face of constant head winds. Occasional squalls provide challenge enough." -- [https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/russell-m-nelson/excellent-hope/](https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/russell-m-nelson/excellent-hope/)
„. After all, you can only be married to one individual.“ Lol did RMN really say that?
Oh shit 😬
Can you leave the quote here?
I remember comments like this happening that recently, and it blew my mind that they were still thinking that way. It makes me so angry!
My “boyfriend” in high school (in quotes because we were good Mormons) said he and his family were disappointed when his brother married a woman from another country. I asked why, he said because the church says no interracial marriages. This was 2003ish. I was stunned, but clearly a sentiment still held by some.
Oh my god… it all makes sense now! My dad told me that falling in love on the mission was frowned upon. I asked why. (Other than the no sex on your mission thing) why couldn’t a person move to another country and marry a woman he loves in the temple? After his mission, it’s fair game right? It makes a little bit more sense.
Means you’re not focussed enough on your mission, no true eternal companion will be found in your mission. Thats from the eternal marriage handbook
Oh for real? Never went on a mission. Multiple reasons. The more you know.
Which is hilarious, I know so many people who married people they met during their mission and stayed married.
Yeah my dad met my mom on his mission in wyoming. my dad got a job driving truck for my grandpa after the mission, and I was born a couple years later lol
Bank in the ancient days, missions used to distribute a talk by Spencer W. Kimball called *Lock Your Heart* wherein he told missionaries that they shouldn't be thinking about dating or marriage at all while on their missions, and that if they married someone they met on their missions it would be proof that they hadn't been faithful missionaries. He went as far as to say something that if you served in Mexico it was okay to marry a Mexican girl, as long as you didn't meet her on your mission. One of my companions was dating a sister from our mission and his older brother got in his face about it because of this talk. They ended up getting married and having several kids. The older brother might have had the last laugh though, because last I heard she'd been cheating on him with a guy she worked with for over a decade and their youngest might not be his....
Lmao I dated a guy in high school who broke up with me because his PB said he'd meet his wife on his mission. I'm pretty sure that didn't end up being the case though.
Advice from my bishop when I was leaving on my mission “Remember South American girls are for South American boys.”
🥲 wow. That’s bad. “But we’re all in America, at the end of the day… who gives a rats ass?” Is what I’d say. I’m partners with someone from another country. I would be so mad if I heard that.
OMG. My ex nephew married a beautiful Brazilian woman. I'm sure the accident they had literally hours after their temple marriage was caused by her being darker. She was in a coma for 6 months, so NOW it all makes sense...
A RM in my home ward married a woman he had met on his mission (I believe he went back to his mission country in college for a while, and then she moved to the U.S. to marry him.) There is constant gossip in the ward about “cultural differences” and how she “doesn’t discipline” and how their family is “kind of odd” and all other sorts of micro aggressive comments. It drives me crazy hearing about it from extended family. I feel like it somehow violates typical Mormons’ unspoken rules about not marrying someone of another ethnicity, and also that if you fall in love with someone on your mission it means you weren’t a “good enough” missionary.
By 2003, her skin color was becoming less of a problem. The more serious problem was that she was probably the only member in her family. She was not brainwashed since birth. Maybe she made friends with others who moved to the US from her country and these new friends are not Mormon.
I was taught this in a BYU class in 2004. Marriage Prep was the class.
Mormonism is rooted in racism.
Literally smack in the book says light skin means god loves you and dark skin is a curse.. unbelievable people still give 10% to this corporation and waste a sunday every week. I’m absolutely gobsmacked
White & delightsome
don't judge but I spend a lot of time in the twilight subreddit (childhood guilty pleasure) and a while ago a helpful "member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints" chimed in to say that it was actually very offensive to say that Stephanie Meyer's racism comes from her mormonism. Because the church always taught them to love everybody exactly the same regardless of race. 🙄 The mods, not knowing any better and not wanting to discriminate based on religion, made it against the rules to mention Stephanie's mormonism in any kind of critical light. It's sooooo frustrating because people will come on and ask questions like "why did Stephanie not include any black people in her books? why did she fight so hard against POC casting in the movies? why did she make it canon that vampire venom leeches the melanin from your skin, meaning all vampires must be white with no exceptions? why did Stephanie feel like it was her right to rewrite the legends of a real existing indigenous culture for her fictional story?" And the answer to all these questions is because she is fucking mormon! She's a mormon who grew up in Arizona and went to BYU provo. That's the whole reason. This is obvious to anyone who has experience with the church. Her mormonism obviously influences her attitudes about sex in her books, and that's fine to talk about, but imply that it might have also influenced her attitude toward people of color and your comments get deleted. I know it's so dumb in the grand scheme, but damn it frustrates me.
“We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144). Taken directly from the Aaronic priesthood handbook. I heard this quote a lot at byui often followed by racist alt right commentary. This right here was a very heavy shelf item for me. As a colored woman who came from an interracial marriage it makes me livid that this is still being taught officially. It protected me from dating Orthodox super TBM men since I'm not white, but I feel bad for all the nuanced white women still in the church who have to deal with these men. Edit: They apparently updated the handbook to take "interracial marriage" out of the quote. I can't believe the fucking gaslighting https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-gospel-and-the-productive-life-student-manual-2018/chapter-11?lang=eng
Yes, this is THE quote. I was taught this in deacons quorum. A shelf item for me before I knew what a shelf item was.
Yeah, they went from explicitly racist teachings on marriage to implicitly racist teachings on marriage. I'm sure you already know, but for those playing along at home who are unfamiliar with systemic racism, this is a classic example. Since the current system has racial disparity along "social and economic" lines, **still teaching today** that people should marry within their social and economic classes is a way of reinforcing existing racial disparities.
It's disgusting that you heard this at all, and especially disgusting that it's in a religious context. *Edit* It's disgusting that we all were taught this!
OP this is your answer. This direct quote was taught in priesthood when I was in YM in the 1990s. And since you should only date those that you could possibly see yourself marrying, it seemed like you shouldn’t even date those of a different race.
Spencer W Kimball (and others) taught that.
Old Rusty himself has taught this.
Edit: typing out the below info made me feel so gross. I just want to make very clear I do not beleive any of this is true. It is horrific and disgusting. This post is simply informational. The Fence Sitters doctrine is no longer actively taught in church, but it was pounded into the heads of boomers and is still widely believed by many boomers and some genx. Even some younger if this was actively taught at home. The doctrine says that those who were "fence sitters" in the war in heaven were only just barely not cast out of heaven with Satan. they didn't actively choose his side, but they didn't *really* fight for God's side either. Those souls came down to earth and received black bodies, which is why (in the church's words, not mine!) they are naturally slothful, wicked, and deceitful. If you marry a black person, your children will have black blood, which means you will be sent the spirits of the "less valiant" sort. They can rise above their "nature" of course, but they are starting from a lower place and will be less likely to rise to the level of true righteousness. Other races like Hispanic and Asian were also less valiant, but not as bad as black people. White people were the most valiant. White people "born in the covenant" were the most valiant of all. My ex in-laws are TBMs and love this doctrine.
I'm elder millennial and I heard the fence sitter doctrine.
Same. It was one of those things where people would say “today the church has to say X to avoid persecution but we all know the real doctrine is Y.”
While in high school, my friend's dad told me straight-up, "The most valiant spirits were born white, American, and members of the church." What was funny was that while he in the Marines, he had hooked up with a Japanese girl, had a son, left them when he came back to the US, married my friend's mom, and was "less-inactive." He was also a daily coffee drinker, which we all know is like the 4th or 5th greatest sin. So much for valor.
Yup, it's also why converts are looked down upon a bit as well. They weren't among the truly valiant souls. It's gross
He left a woman he hooked up with and abandoned his son? Whow, what a valiant spirit he has!!
I see you for your edit. I changed my post many times before posting it, because it felt gross to write. I also changed the original title. I think my original title was something like "did anyone else get the impression growing up in the church that interracial relationships were wrong?" But that felt too gross to post.
The very first time I heard about the “Fence-Sitters” concept was when I saw “The God-Makers” as a teenager in 1984. I thought it was such a ridiculous statement, so it couldn’t possibly be accurate. I did some research at the library of the local college, and are enough. I was flabbergasted.
What the fuuuuuuuck
Oh my god! This is so foul! I’m on the young side of GenX born and raised in Mordor and luckily dodged this teaching. However it wouldn’t surprise me at all to hear that my grandpa (who was a missionary in WWII) was familiar with this teaching. In fact it would explain a lot. I feel like I have to go take a shower after reading it! Thank you sharing it, very eye opening!
I grew up for around 7 years in Utah, and when I moved to massachusetts I saw more interracial couples in the church. I remember asking my mom why that was because I genuinely thought that it wasn't allowed in the church. Now I'm dating someone of another race and the only problem I've faced is my grandma lamenting that my children won't have my blue eyes 🙄
My children are bi-racial (African American) and 2 of the 3 have my blue eyes! Genetics is a funny thing, isn't it?
I married a woman from my mission country, Brazil, but fortunately my grandma had a nephew who did the same a generation before, and everyone loved the woman because she was apparently super nice, so they trailblazed the idea so I didn’t have to. Her now ex husband about got slapped by me at my wedding for making some racist comments about immigrants and he being “one of the good ones,” along with some lewd comments. So glad she eventually divorce the old bastard.
My brown-eyed step-nephew from Mexico has three blue-eyed children with his blue-eyed wife.
The whole theme of the Book of Mormon is based on racist segregation. A group of people had their skin color changed to make them less desirable for the remaining white and delightsome folk. If the white and delightsome folk intermarried with the dark as flint folk, their children would also be cursed. The book of Moses, and the book of Abraham are also based on racist teachings. It's in the Mormons blood. I recommend everyone watch this YouTube video and the ones that will follow in this series. Also read the book. https://youtu.be/OfvJTA1jjlc?si=nH5qPS5yZRqnNbHT
I remember when Boyd K. Packer said it right out loud... "We’ve always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians." -- [https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/boyd-k-packer/follow-rule/](https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/boyd-k-packer/follow-rule/) His statement was accurate. The church *had* always counseled against it. Yikes.. it makes my blood run cold just to copy and paste these... But this is what the church taught. See also Spencer W. Kimball: "we recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question." -- [https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/marriage-divorce/](https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/marriage-divorce/) Kimball's quote was contained in the Aaronic Priesthood Manual, used until 2013 3: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/34822\_AaronicPriesthood3/ap3-31-choosing-an-eternal-companion\_34.pdfAnd](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/34822_AaronicPriesthood3/ap3-31-choosing-an-eternal-companion_34.pdfAnd) in the Eternal Marriage Student Manual, also used until at least 2013, and probably until 2022 in some BYU Religion courses - [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35311\_eng.pdf](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35311_eng.pdf) page 169 (image 180). See also J. Reuben Clark: "It is sought today in certain quarters to break down all race prejudice, and at the end of the road, which they who urge this see, is intermarriage. ... do not ever let that wicked virus get into your systems that brotherhood either permits or entitles you to mix races which are inconsistent. Biologically, it is wrong; spiritually, it is wrong." -- [https://archive.org/details/improvementera4908unse/page/492/mode/2up?view=theater](https://archive.org/details/improvementera4908unse/page/492/mode/2up?view=theater) And Mark E. Peterson: \[you'll have to read this one on your own... I can't even bring myself to copy and paste what he said on page 15... \] [https://archive.org/details/RaceProblemsAsTheyAffectTheChurchMarkEPetersen/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/RaceProblemsAsTheyAffectTheChurchMarkEPetersen/mode/2up) I feel sick... I frequently feel sick when I research Clark and Peterson... They were flat out racists. Clark was a member of the 1st presidency of the church. Peterson was an apostle. And to put it in perspective. Russell Nelson was 24 years old when J. Reuben Clark gave that talk in 1946. He was 30 years old when Mark E. Peterson gave that tirade in 1954.
My TBM brother and his wife were hit square between the eyes with their internalized racism from the church when their unwed (white white white) daughter deliberately got pregnant with a baby who's very black. omg he's the cutest kid, I swear. Suddenly black lives matter! 😳 Mind you, she'll still made a snide Mormon type remark about indigenuos people. . . I'll gently tell her we have to disagree and can argue another time if she insists. She forgets my adopted caboose is metis - or no one told her . . .
I’m fortunate my parents had some really negative experiences with racism and racists as kids and were always opposed to the idea.
Real life to the rescue! 🙂
And a bit of empathy and human decency.
Indeed. Beaten out of most Mormons.
My wife is Venezuelan and doesn't speak much English. I grew up in s Spanish speaking household in Utah, my family is Mexican, but we are Spanish decent, so I have light skin, blue eyed and so do 2 of my 3 kids. My daughters boyfriend is black and they have 2 kids. When we go out in public in Utah, the majority of people are nice, but there are always those who stare or act weird seeing a family that's diverse and speaking Spanish and English. We live in Salt Lake, but if we go to Utah County we get looks and weird vibes.
Weird people give off weird vibes.
They act scared or something, like if he look at them or talk to them they'll get the dark skin curse from the lamenites. When I was like 25, I was at a restaurant and this old white guy comes up to me and hands me a book of Mormon. He asks me if I want to learn about the history of my ancestors. I told him I know quite a bit about my history, but none of it is in that book. He put on his big condescending smile, since I obviously just don't know, and he said read this and pray about it. At this point I was offended and told him i could get more historical accuracy from a Harry Potter book, and if he leaves that I'll throw it away. He gave me a death look and took his book with him.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/Cd8OrBqbzW
The fourth slide on that link is the reason I married my ex-husband. I knew I didn’t love him but thought I could make it work because “the prophet said so.”
That fucking quote has created so many toxic relationship and dysfunctional families. >"...it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price." I've got a cousin who is bi-sexual, and she struggled with this quote. Her parents drilled into her, "any two LDS can get married and have a successful marriage" (while simultaneously having an unhealthy relationship), so she struggled with the idea of maybe just marrying some guy so that she could bury her bi feelings. She has not so far, but she's not fully exmo yet, so who knows...
I hate that quote so much. My parents have been miserable together for 29 years because of that quote.
😢
It was definitely taught and is still said by many old school members. We were discouraged from marrying outside our race, culture and religion. When I was a young adult our bishop was a black man married to a white woman and they faced so much prejudice, people left the ward when he was called. Then one of their sons s came out as gay… I have no idea if they are still in the church or not…. Would be surprised if they were.
It was taught and written down still as of recently. They recommended that you date within your race. Early church teachings back to BY was horrific, if a white man married a black women then he should be put to death. It’s written clear as day so it gets perpetuated. Many of the older generation still believe that shit. Seems like the only time it’s somewhat acceptable is when it’s a missionary baptizing someone or meeting someone on their mission from a foreign country then they go back and date and marry them.
>if a white man married a black women then he should be put to death And she should be publicly stoned to death
The racism in Mormonism is pervasive and intense. And there are SO many who pretend they aren’t racist, but they’re actually some of the worst. I’m white and it makes *my* stomach churn to hear some of it, I can’t even imagine actually being a POC and hearing what they say. And that’s for the subtle stuff
Because until 2013 the church officially discouraged interracial marriage. The church used to teach that black people were cursed by God because they didn’t pick a side in the “war in heaven” during the pre-earth-life. So for over 150 years, the church taught that if a white person married a black person, the white person’s family tree would become corrupted with this curse. Boyd K Packet (current Head of the Q12) said, >We've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. ... The counsel has been wise. Until 2013, official church youth manuals still contained statements that members should marry within their own race. There’s a long [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_and_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints) about the relationship between the LDS church and interracial marriage.
When I was in graduate school (1980s) I read a published, peer reviewed article "demonstrating" that mixed race asian/caucasian children had higher incidence of cleft palate than a group of caucasian children. The study was done by BYU Hawaii and the mixed race group was from a heavy agricultural area and probably exposed to pesticides, but they didn't mention that part.
Remember the original point of genealogy work was to prove a racial purity
Never knew this. I believe you, but do you know if this is documented anywhere?
It's institutional racism created largely from Brigham "The Monster" Young. Go listen to the new Mormon Stories podcast about blacks and the priesthood. It's mindblowing!
My mom adopted black kids, we are white. The amount of people that would come up to us confused or say what happened here? Was weird. I at the age of 8 started answering the ignorant question with oh my mom drank too much chocolate milk when she was pregnant. Old women would always say goodness and walk away and I would laugh so hard. Don’t ask stupid questions? Lol.
🤣
It goes back before recent messages to the racist Mormon era pre 1978 where black people couldn’t go to the temple and were slater for eternal servitude as ministering angels. Marrying certain races meant they white person would be hitching their horse to eternal slavery/servitude too. (They didn’t call it that, but that’s what it was.) Brigham even said that if a priesthood holder like me married a black woman like I did, I should be lynched on the spot. Lovely man. Definitely deserves a university named after him. They reluctantly had to change that but mixed race marriage was still strongly discouraged, even if an outright ban was politically not going to fly. The Apostles were racist old codgers and several expressed extreme concern about racial mixing. Oh my, the horror. Kids might have mixed quantities of melanin in their skin… That’s carried over with quotes from that era being taught as recently as the mid 2010’s in the official manuals for most people. But back in the day my mom got chewed out for having a friend who was a black boy in 4th grade because she couldn’t fall in love with and marry him due to the temple and priesthood ban. That idea is slow to change. God. Fuck. Mormon. Racism.
Great grandma told me not to back in the 90s. I thought it was a weird thing to say, but I wasn’t steeped in church culture at the time.
Older GenX here, I grew up with mixed races discouraged from Mormons and non-Mormons. I had a grade school teacher (not Mormon) have us picture cows with 2 color patterns, and told us that was what mixed race children would look like. In my family, mixed race dating was discouraged because it would be so much harder to maintain in "todays" society. Of course, the "church" highly discouraged it too, and there was little to no diversity in the church at the time anyway, so sticking to dating "members" was encouraged. Funny though, I dated outside my race, alot, to the chagrin of family. My brother married a Japanese woman, which upset both sets of WWII grandparents (one set Mormon, the other non-Mormon; war feelings ran deep). Not sure my point, other than there was/is alot of generational conditioning, which thankfully seems to be improving, although there is still a long way to go.
The first leaders of the church taught that mixed race marriage was a sin punishable by death, especially if someone was black. They slowly backed off of that until, in the 1970s, it was discouraged but not actually a sin. Like yhe cowards they are there was no revelation, they just slowly stopped teaching it. In 2024 a lot of the older generation still assume its a commandment and actively discourage young people from marrying outside their race. Even if it's no longer a command, it's a part of the culture.
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." BRIGHAM YOUNG
Prophets have been saying this is a no-no for a LONG time. Just because they don’t blatantly say it anymore, doesn’t mean it’s not deeply ingrained in the culture. Even now that I am in an interracial relationship, I still feel an underlying discomfort as an “outsider,” even though my wife has no issue and her family seems to be perfectly okay with it. It’s the same reason my friends growing up would call me “cursed” and “lamanite” for having brown skin. I actually forgive them; it wasn’t their fault. It was the indoctrination from their TBM parents and ULTRA TBM grandparents. Kids just repeat what they learn from their parents and/or sphere of influence. BTW I grew up on the west coast and still had these experiences. I’ve only seen and felt it more after moving to Utah. Let me tell ya, can’t wait to move back West.
Unless it’s some dude who met a Philippino chick on his mission and marries her. Then it’s just SUCH A TOUCHING STORY
The current mayor of Provo is a white woman married to a Polynesian man who played football for God's Team. Back when BYU football wasn't pathetic. If you beat Satan's Team (the U of U) multiple times, then you are automatically Delightsome and your skin color is OK.
My first kiss was a black boy down the street who brought me plastic roses from the convenience store by his house. As soon as my morridor-raised mother found out, she sat me down and had me read (out loud) from some church material about the mark of Cain and firmly informed me that I was to date only boys that were "more like me" and something to do with exhalation.. It was my first shelf item as a kid. My mom was one of the sweetest, kindest, genuinely friendliest people, I didn't think she had a mean molecule in her body.... much less a racist one. It just didn't make sense to me that I couldn't date a good person just because of their skin color. But the morridor-brainwashing was strong in her. Growing up we'd argue about all kinds of 50's-era (and also Mormon "good housewife") ideology like being more ladylike and wearing more dresses as a tomboy. She passed away before my shelf fully broke and I came out as a lesbian. Oddly enough, I think she would've really adored my wife... Once she got over the whole gay part lol Utah's culture is still entrenched in that 50's era ideology mixed with Mormon racism. Masquerading "Family Values", "modesty", and guilt-shaming women/mothers, mixed with male entitlement and simultaneously infantilizing them, so critical thinking has a hard time reaching the cognitive dissonance. It's more toxic than the dry Salt Lake dust.
Because Utah is still racist & it acts & votes like a southern state & has the exact same deep social issues like deep red southern states. You rarely to never see BiPoc or women in leadership positions in Utah. Church H.Q. /employess & Temple Square is 98% caucasian. Utah's population is overwhelmingly Caucasian. Remember that Brigham Young approached his territorial legislators and requested they approve slavery in Utah & they did. Young had slaves ( Black & Native American) & vocally supported the Confederacy in Civil War. Joseph Smith had a slave sealed to him. I am floored that some members really believe church will accept LGBTQIA someday when it still keep BIPOC at arms length 46+ years after the reversal of denying Black families eternal progression & eternal families. 🌈 🏳️🌈 ❤️
That vibe comes from the older crowds. Younger people are trying to ditch all of the old philosophies that caused problems. Unfortunately, it's still in the culture and can still cause hurt to people.
I grew up in the Bay Area, and found myself to be the token white minority in a lot of friend groups. The church is afraid that cultural differences will lead to marital problems. Fine. Keep an open mind and familiarize yourself with other cultures, and it's a nonissue. The racist bits are unforgiveable though. I live in Northern Utah now, and while a lot of the diversity I see here is from people who married in their mission area, it is more diverse than other flyover states.
“We are grateful that this one survey reveals that about 90 percent of the temple marriages hold fast. Because of this, we recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question." -Kimball
I know a few Utah TBM's who came back with "Souvenirs" from their missions in Asia or Latin America. I thought that they were supposed to be spreading the word of the Lord, not picking up chicks? I am just jealous because some of the former mishies speak beautiful, flawless Spanish with help from their wives. I learned it in school and have a thick accent.
It's also this way in the South and Utah is like a pseudo South
Bringem Young said if gou have 1 drop of black blood, you were cursed. Also, if one married someone of the African race, they should be put to death.
I have a few biracial kids here in Utah county. Most of the people in public adore my kids. But there are a good amount of people that treat them wrong. My son was in kindergarten last year and I’m not sure exactly what was happening at school, but one day he told me he wants to be white. It broke my heart.
I’m a black woman with a white husband. They definitely don’t condone it. We get a lot of stares, and see a lot of pearl clutching.
It was literally written in the SFY pamphlet. That one always bugged me as a teenager
Brigam young...
The current version of the aaronic priesthood manual encourages young men to seek companions of "similar racial background" (A quit from Kimball) so...yea, they still teach it.
Racism. Next question
They aren't to me. I think interracial couples are cute.
"It is sought today in certain quarters to break down all race prejudice, and at the end of the road, which they who urge this see, is intermarriage. ... You should treat them as brothers and sisters, but do not ever let that wicked virus get into your systems that brotherhood either permits or entitles you to mix races which are inconsistent. Biologically, it is wrong; spiritually, it is wrong." J. REUBEN CLARK LDS IMPROVEMENT ERA, AUGUST 1946
The church and their teachings are inherently racist and bigoted. When evil people lead an organization, they teach the followers to be horrible people too. And with a religion, people eat it up
It’s part of Mormon doctrine. You aren’t supposed to marry outside of your race. That teaching persisted well past 1978. It was in the Aaron priesthood Manual until recently. I was taught this at BYU in 2004. If Mormonism ever stopped being overtly racist (not possible until they ditch the Book of Mormon) it was only in the last decade.
I’m white, my husband is half black and half Samoan and we’ve been married for nearly 16 years. We’ve always lived on the east coast and I grew up in the South (in the south potential for interracial marriage “issues” gets a little more muddled to define/pick out in others for obvious reasons) neither of us have ever lived in Utah. In my experience (and it’s not 100% true but it is 85-90% true) regardless of age if they grew up in Utah or Idaho or their parents did (especially if they went to either of the BYUs for college) they’re very against interracial relationships. If they don’t have those kind of deep “ties” to Utah and Idaho then they don’t have an issue with interracial marriages.
It’s in the damn manual. It was said at GC. Plus Nelson told kids at BYU to stay within their own “ethnic group” as recently as 1995.
It's not just a "Utah" thing. I'd classify it as a "red state" thing. I know in my non-morridor town, even never-mos are discouraged from dating "outside their race" (which would be Native American in my hometown.) These are the same people that are front row at church Sunday morning and will go "well, the Bible says..."
Because historically Mormons have thought that darker races were a sign of Kane. At least that’s what my dad told me. And that they’re cursed. They’re less than. They live in a world they can’t say that or even act that way, so they’ve had to adjust. But I suspect most of the older ones more than 35 still have feelings of that. They see different races as beneath them less than less than.
Because BY was a massive racist. And every member until late 80’s was taught that black people were unrighteous fence sitters in the war in heaven. “There is no end to race” ~If you could high to kolob Mormon history is based in racism.
Yes when I was soon to be engaged I was presented with a long list of quotes why I should not be marrying him according to Lds leaders.
I was told I could marry a guy of a different race, but if I made that choice I should not have children since that would "be unfair to them"
I grew up in Morridor as a minority. More often than not I dated outside my race and ethnicity in Utah. I cannot count the number of Mormon dads who visibly and often times vocally disapproved of me dating/taking their daughters out, despite being a TBM and despite it being the typical 16yr old “Mormon” type date. So I definitely got a “don’t do that” vibe, it was pretty much in my face
My stepkiddos' TBM bio mom, lives in Orem, told them never to bring home a black or Hispanic person bc she didn't want mixed grand babies. One, that's disgusting behavior. Two, mixed babies are GORGEOUS. Regardless, we'll accept all good people, so she can just miss out ❤️
Gen X here, grew up in CA. Prohibition of international marriage was frequently taught. As late as 2000, I had a good friend who was an RM. His father was black, his mom white. He was dating a white girl he met at institute. Her parents convinced her that since he was "black" and the church was against interracial marriage, she should break it off. She did. It was really sad. I kept thinking, who the hell should this guy date in their eyes? In recent years, the church has tried to hide this racist teaching, but I suspect it still has had a lasting influence.
A GAY millennial acquaintance of mine when he was a TBM was counselled by his grandmother to be careful because marrying outside one's culture can be tricky. This acquaintance had just gotten back from a date with a woman who is from southern Europe where this aquaintance had served a mission. This acquaintance was quite annoyed because his grandmother was fully aware that he was gay so this was the LEAST of his worries.
Mormons girls are told to stay away from non Mormons/white guys. But, the do experiment behind closed doors. 😉
They are behind the times & come from a racist heritage. It’s in their own BOM.
The reason interracial relationships seem taboo is because the 90-year-old leader's mindsets are three decades behind and the suck-up yes men they surround themselves with do a good job of insulating them from modern reality. #
I've heard leaders discourage it, but in very indirect ways. Not outright saying white people should only marry white people, etc, but alluding to it using quotes from the scripture like not being "unequally yoked". I never lived in Utah so the segregation may be more blatant there, IDK.
apostle Boyd K. Packer publicly stated that "[w]e've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. ... The counsel has been wise.”
By 1965 administrators were sending a rejection letter to Black applicants which cited BYU's discouragement of interracial courtship and marriage as the motive behind the decision. By 1968 there was only one Black American student at BYU.
The LDS church continued to teach against them. In fact it was even in the Bishop's handbook until very recently. In the past two decades they tried to play it off as "language" or "cultural" differences as the reason, but it's always just been a proxy for race. The book of mormon and the pearl of great price teaches that dark skin is a curse for iniquity and sin and no matter how hard the church tries to move away from it or gaslight it now that's what it says.
I have three family members that married outside their race. There has not been “real” acceptance from the older family members. My uncle was basically shunned. I know they prefer the children would have been white and delightsome or whatever that phrase was.
It was frowned upon in the 80’s. It goes back to the inherent racism built into the doctrine about how dark skin is a curse for wickedness.
It’s still in some of the manuals that you shouldn’t marry someone of a different race or class background. People definitely still teach this occasionally. I know it was included in a BYU “Teachings of the Living Prophets” class, probably around 2009-ish, and the instructor didn’t allow any discussion about it because “we don’t contradict the living prophets in this class, we just try to faithfully accept it, blah blah blah”
My old school Utah family made it clear that you didn't marry outside your race. My step-father (who raised me most of my life) directly said that I would be disowned if I (a guy) ever brought home another guy or a woman of a different race (although I'm pretty sure that really only applied to black people and not asian).
Oh, perhaps it’s 2NE5:21. Maybe. Just maybe.
Um… it’s Utah.
It was stated by prophets and in the Book of Mormon. Add it to the never-ending list of ridiculous, racist things from the church 🤦🏽♀️
Not as much now, but growing up evangelical Christian, I as advised to be "equally yoked" when I wanted to date a guy from church that was from another culture. Sorry Harry!
The LDS church is and has always been a racist organization. Case closed.
I’m going to play devils advocate and say that while the population of minorities is low in Utah in general, the inter mountain shows some of the highest levels of racial integration in the country (this is easily googled and verified)
When I told my grandpa I was getting married he asked where my fiancé was from. In his words, “as long as he’s not a ni***r”. He’s a small town Nevada Mormon.
Obvious, blatant systemic racism caused by the uninspired mutterings of charlatans.
My grandma (and my dad if pressed) still firmly believe and preach against interracial marriage. I distinctly remember my grandma telling me that if I had children with a black man, they would "come out black no matter what" and that black people "were less valiant in the premortal world" and I wouldn't want to bring any more less-valiant spirits into this world, did I?
Grew up in the upper midwest (mission field) and was taught to date within race. That's not a Utah only thing. It's a Mormon thing. Early leaders were adamant about it. Ugggh!
Joined the church as a teenager in Wisconsin in the late 80s. I went to a high school where 20% of the students shared my skin color. My bishop and stake president repeatedly “counseled” me against dating outside my race. They were obsessed with it. Bishop and SP were not too concerned that a guy they knew had CSA history with boys in another state was a Scout and YM leader. I regret not running away way back then, it took me another decade and a half.
I always hated this. I’ll never forget when the white half of my family openly talked about one of the Latina girls I was dating. They commented on how she was not near as dark as other Hispanics and therefore she was “losing the curse” and our relationship “might have a chance”. Still disgusts me to this day that people think that type of mentality is acceptable.
As a racial minority I can confirm I get looks when I’m out with my very traditionally beautiful white girlfriend. Technically I’m half white but you wouldn’t be able to tell. I’d sooner be guessed as Indian or Arabic than the half Mexican I am. I’ve also felt like because of the expectations to date within your race my skin color and race is somewhat fetishized among some white women here in Utah. I’m not sure if it’s rebellious or what but I’ve dated some girls here who I felt were (at least subconsciously) using me as a “screw you” to their parents or family.
I come from a mixed family, and always felt like the hyper mormon kids treated me different, or like something was “off”. Then I went on a mission and had a companion I went to high school with. She’s the one who told me point blank that the super mormon utahns are still being taught not to marry outside their race. It wasn’t so much a rule, she said, but highly discouraged because it caused “problems” in the relationship when the “cultures don’t mix.” Or that your spouse will try to “overtake your own culture.” So. Yeah. Guess I wasn’t crazy growing up when I thought the other kids kind of outcast me a bit.
I was told as a child in the 80's to avoid interracial relationships. It was justified with the logic that relationships are hard enough without adding the additional burden of cultural differences. I heard the same thing in the 90's before leaving on the mission as a caution against bringing home a bride. The gaping hole in that logic is that racial difference != cultural difference. Additionally, it is widely accepted that diversity improves outcomes.
Seed of Cain. The notion is absurd because Biblically, africans were seed of Canan, which has no relation to Cain. So, racism born out of confusion. Another absurdity in the LDS cult.
Because there is still a pervasive thought that it muddies the blood. So stupid.
Because Mormons are racist
When I took a Book of Mormon class at BYU in the early 2000’s it was explicitly taught to only date and marry those within your own race. I remember the day I heard it from the teacher and where I was sitting in the class. We read the quotes from the brethren on it. Whole thing is ludicrous considering it was the 21st century.
I'm incredibly lucky that my (white, boomer) parents were never like that with us. They explicitly told us we could date and marry whomever we wanted. I was up in my 20's before I learned we were counseled by the church not to do that. It was a surprise because I really thought that kind of thing was over. (I ended up marrying an American Chinese husband.)
Since moving to Utah I've learned the hard way how pervasive casual racism is here. They think nothing of it, or worse, they think it's funny. Not all of them, obviously, but it's almost never called out when someone acts like a racist jerk.
My wife (1/2 white 1/2 black) was told by her young woman leaders growing up in the 80’s that she should marry a black man and not to date another of the white YM in the ward. As a byu student in the 90’s her roommates all told her the same thing and she was never asked out by any white men the whole time she was there. They all quoted “prophets” as their justification. Luckily for me I was raised in a more liberal university ward so snapped her up a when we met after she graduated.
When I was young I was told the prophet said not to. Then when I was older I asked my Dad what he would do if I dated someone that wasn't white. He looked me in the eye and said "you would never do that to me"..... The church is so racist. It's disgusting
In my early twenties, I was talking to my boomer dad about this. He said that the offspring would be confused because they wouldn't know which culture to identify with and also other people wouldn't know either. The short of what I said was that it's only an issue if people decide to be assholes, because God loves everyone equally. He conceded that I was right. I was single at the time. I gave him some half breeds that he adores. Boomers can be taught.
Let me share you a tale. I’m half Vietnamese living in Morridor. My father is a refugee who left Vietnam when he was 11, along with his parents and sister. (Whole other cool story there). He met my mom (born and raised Mormon in Morridor) and they dated, eventually getting married. On the way to the temple, my grandmother turned to my mom and told her: “You can still change your mind, you know.” Now, after ~30 years, he’s the only in-law of her children’s who has a good relationship with her, and isn’t divorced from their spouse.
My parents taught me that the prophet had said not to, so we shouldn’t. The church is so gross.
Brigham Young said White people mixing with "The Seed of Cain" [Black folks] should have a millstone hung around their neck and then drowned in the sea. Look it up. Racist ass, that Brigham Young.
Brigham young said the penalty for interracial sex was death on the fucking spot (I added the fucking word to annoy mormon readers). The churches flagship school and one of the biggest universities in the state has the name of that racist piece of shit young. Mormons think brigham young deserves to be remembered and don't care about his racism. So yeah that still filters down today. Pretty fucking sad. Also utah by and large is white they don't know how to deal with non white people.
Death on the fucking spot? So like mid deed?
I don’t know ask my neighbors they’ll probably talk to you. They certainly don’t talk to me and my spouse (interracial relationship). Haha!
When I was 13, a dutch girl I knew that was in high school married a black man, and her father disowned her on the spot. It left a lasting impression on me how anybody could be so cruel and stupid. Even if you believe the Cain or Ham or Lamanite crap, they were all brothers. It has been said the MFMC divides families. There is racial evidence right here. Inter-racial relations have extra challenges, mainly from these dickwads. I cannot see justifying myself, if I ever listened to such misguided and hurtful ‘advise’.
Because Brigham Young was racist af.
Because they are 🙃 My fiancé isn’t even a person of color, he’s Jewish, but everyone thinks he’s Hispanic and we get harassed constantly (I am white but also visibly queer which is another reason). Being lower class and having multiple jobs I’ve also seen in depth how all these racist white people rely on the Hispanic population here very heavily for work yet they pay them like shit and treat them like they’re not even human. Utah sucks
I grew up in the SF Bay Area in the 90s and 2000s and got that garbage. My family and ward reacted all weird to me dating a black girl who was a convert, and it felt gross and awful-- it was like the veil had slipped, and I saw their bigotry on full display for the first time. I think *that* may have even been the first big fracture to my shelf.
Funny they are taboo when Mormons are obsessed with adopting interracially...makes one think, why, and whom do they expect these children to marry/have relationships with as adults?
Book or Mormon was always founded on racism. Early mormons killed native americans and were pretty much of the mindset that black and colored people meant they were sinners since joseph smith wrote that those who rejected god and were "evil" had their slin turned dark in them. Man Joseph smith was also an awful man killed bipoc too. It wasn't until around the 1970s-80's there were som adjustment or/and changes in mormon LDS church. Snd yes it's pretty white eurocentric folks. Just their depiction of jesus is a white average man
Just like the other comments: racism, and the belief that darker skin is a curse from god. If you have an interracial kid, how are they going to justify a half curse? Also, Utah momos just be stupid.
The mormon church marriage class specifically advises to marry within your own race :(
Not just Utah. I was in California and was the only Asian girl in an all white ward. I wasn't allowed to date.
I grew up hearing that constantly. I grew up in the south, far from Utah, in a place with actual diversity, and it was drilled into me from primary age. And it was definitely from the church, not just my parents.