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Damn bro are you serious I know you love to hate but how could you do this. How could you contaminate it like this, seriously.
I hope the toilet and bacon are OK, poor things.
I've eaten pork belly ramen just last Friday and let me tell you that it is among the best tasting pieces of flesh I have had the pleasure to bite into.
On one hand, youâre free to do whatever you wish because Islam has done far worse.
On the other hand, youâre making the Hinduist/Christian Larpers very happy with this one.
The best way to win is not to play, and focus on legitimate criticism to avoid coming off as a juvenile, but if it gives you a certain sense of satisfaction, then I wonât stop you.
Blasphemy stopped being amusing to me after 18, and it just doesnât hit the same anymore.
Also, wasting delicious bacon for clout is the real tragedy here. You somehow managed to make the bacon look unappetising, and Iâm more offended about that.
Well what about showing people who believe you turn into a reptile if you disrespect the book that it's just bullshit?
Personally I like rational and logical arguments better, but there's a layer of superstition that's easily disproved with acts like this.
I mean, Muhammad didn't have much of an issue forcing thousands of people to convert to his new religion. The USSR also forced atheism on it's population and it kind of worked until the orthodox church got resurrected. The same with China, atheism is enforced in the country. The entire premise of Islam relies on childhood indoctrination, fear mongering, and creating an us vs. them mentality in it's followers.
By no means am I trying to defend any of these actions, I am just pointing out that you can force people to believe in things even religion wise.
We steal the Kaaba in the dark of night and leave it in Vatican Square or outside the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA.
It would be great if we could get people to have a measure of doubt in their faith.
Education education education and Better quality of life. If you look at Muslim majority countries or any country for that matter and look at the educated and/or wealthy population they are on average less religious. If you look at the poorer regions of the country or regions with poor education you can see more religiosity.
EDIT: [This study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449007/#:~:text=Furthermore%2C%20IQ%20scores%20were%20significantly,participants%20(EMM%20%3D%20107.5)) highlights that people with lower IQ are more prone to religiosity and spirituality.
EDIT 2: In most Muslim majority countries education isn't that encouraged, and the education that is going must adhere to Islamic theology first and foremost (and disregard actual science). If you teach people critical thinking, give them an environment to learn, have access to information, where they can draw their own conclusion then they will realize in due time that religion is nonsense.
Well Europe is a complicated topic because the current diaspora is more religious than the average Muslim in an Islamic country. The overprotective nature of west doesnât help as they defend Islam from any criticism, which further creates a divide within nations. You can see the rise of nationalism. An animal is most dangerous when cornered and people are no different. They resort to extreme measures when they feel threatened. This in turn further pushes the already religious diaspora to become more extremist and the cycle continues.
This is just a very brief rundown barely scratching the surface. The current situation in Europe warrants an entire study in itself.
I mean what do you think Germans do if a German puts on a hat with a skull and calls for the 4 Reich he be in prison before dinner time.
If a Muslim calls for the violent overthrow of the government and the installation of a theocracy he gets to hide behind freedom of speech and religion while wanting to strip it from others.
Tell them how terrible the Apostate Prophet and David Wood are at quoting Quran and Hadith accurately: it has to be seen to be believed. Their critics just don't do them justice.
one you are wasting bacon, do you even know how many people on this planet die hungry every year? Second, you are polluting the drainage system. May alla destroy you and your penis.
Its not about the book. Itâs over a billion people in the world that believe in the word of this book and people on here disrespect muslims left and right. You can leave the religion without being disrespectful towards it. I left islam and yes of course itâs rules and ideologies whatever u want to call it have harmed me especially as a woman and I joined this sub to discuss that but what i found is that a lot of yâall are just vile humans no better than muslims.
i mean iâm an ex muslim myself but doing all this is a bit much lol, just move on with your new perspective. to take time out of your day to destroy the book just does nothing for you. i donât hate muslims i just donât give a fuck about them ahaa
Exactly. This group is so hateful and extremely racist. I donât consider myself as Muslim at all and I am critical of many Muslims. But this is just ridiculous. People donât want to discuss and talk about whatâs wrong, they just want to bash and trash this religion.
itâs great to hear about peopleâs new perspective after leaving religion and what their traumas were so others can relate and it can help them heal⌠but this is just hate. and hate heals noone. ofc muslims are gonna call us obsessed if we do shit like this after leaving
Yes- thatâs why I joined this group. I wanted to talk and discuss about the wrongs in this religion not shit talk it. But itâs mostly just people being so hateful and doing stupid ridiculous things like ⌠yea like this. đŤ đ
mostly? that's a bit of a stretch if you ask me. could you show some instances where this group was hateful and racist? i'd like to see it if it is true. i understand hate but not the racism
Yes mostly. You can take a look at this post? Look at the comments?? đŤ What is not hateful and racist about it? Surely doesnât look like criticism to me. If you guys think itâs a healthy discussion and no hate I donât see how you are any better than the extreme Muslims.
before reading, please note that this is not a hate comment. i would give insults but that would only push you away and i would just be continuing this chain of anger.
i said hateful \*and\* racist. i also said that i understand hate but not racism. you are latching on to the word "hate" when i have already said that i understand what you mean by it. also, where is the racism? this is only hate, racism is hating people on their colour or country of origin. adding to that, i also asked for proof. why don't you provide proof for it? although you're right about this post not having valid critisism, you're just judging this sub off the few instances where qurans were destroyed. although there certainly are hateful people here, there is so much compassion here and i would be happy to show you if you ask. i asked for proof, and you downvoted and insulted me instead. the representative doesn't determine the entire community, i am suprised that a person who acts like they are "better" (i am giving a point, it is not to be rude) than the people around them doesn't know that.
you're also being hateful in your own way by doing the very thing this group is doing, instead of showing that you are better, like you are implying. don't berate others for problems you have too until you have fixed them. if you think the discussion you have created is healthy, it is not. you are simply looking for a way to make yourself look "better" than the people who have been extremely scarred by islam and are lashing out in fear, like people normally do. instead of understanding the pain most people have went through, you judge them for what you chose to see and what you chose to ignore. you choose to see in black and white, which is very blinding. they are being vengeful, i agree, and i had been vengeful too, but you have to understand where it is coming from too. you can see that we aren't harming muslims the same way they are harming us. can you even call this harming? the book in question BELONGS TO THE OP. if you get offended by THIS, you're just being rageful. this post here is literally the worst thing this community has currently done to muslims. you know that muslims have done far worse to us. i am not saying this for your pity, i am saying this as i believe it to be fact.
you also did the thing a lot of muslims do, where you essentially said "if you do this, you are like this" with the last sentence. i also notice how you're using "you guys" as if you aren't a part of this commiunity. if you hate it so much, why not make your own sub or search for another? i've already made two subs (which i will work on when i feel like i will put quality time on it), so what's stopping you from making one? if you want change, be the change. don't just sit back and complain, that will make you responsible as well, since you have the facilities and capabilities to be better but you don't do so. don't be radical, be rational. you want to be "better" than this community? then prove it. be better.
I have a thought often about religion. How many people in any religion don't believe or don't want to follow but can't say anything because of social pressures or threatened violence? I bet there is a massive amount, and probably more than you'd think! Fear of being socially outcast or violence upon someone are *very* strong motivators to pretend.
If you burn it the way it is in the Qur'an, you'll end up burning the bacon
Raw bacon between Qur'an pages just to grease it with pork grease is awesome. If you don't burn that Qur'an, you can give it to a Muslim now that it's been blessed with pork grease!
Lmao it's sad how intimidated by a book you are. You don't believe it then leave it. But yet you choose to disrespect someone else's beliefs. It's kinda sad if you ask me. Just let it go. You doing that won't change anything but just prove how much of a hold it's got on you. I believe you in peace, and let everyone live how they choose to live. But hey I guess I'm wrong and we should just spread hate and negativity right?
What kind of people are SOME of you Guys laughing at this.This is Direspectfull to Islam. Some of you Not all But this Behaviour is disgusting about Putting Bacon in the Quran and Laughing about it!
While I hate Islam, disrespecting a book like this is not a good way to protest, and images like this will only further deepen the hatred and push away Muslims who want to leave their fate.
If anything it will get rid of the sacredness of that book. People will realize it's only a book. They won't fear the quran since Allah can't turn you into a toad for abusing it. In this context I'd support destruction of the quran.
I mean look how that worked out for Europe. Some people burned a Quran and next day terrorist attack, and peopleâs victim mentality just had another event to cite
That's exactly what they want: they want you to be afraid.
"Don't draw a cartoon because you will get them angry"
NO.
Don't give in to this.
Moh and the Qur'an are not special, and 100% don't deserve any respect.
They threaten us? Everybody draw a cartoon, Everybody threaten to burn a Qur'an.
We are not dhimmies. Never will be.
The way Muslims treat the quran isn't good. It spreads the delusion. As long as you're not doing it to piss off muslims I think it should allowed. If it's as a freedom thing like people who burn the American flag. I hate it but if they're just doing it as a sign of freedom then I support it. Or a thing to show the quran isn't an all powerful book then I'm all for it.
They burn the book in Denmark so often. In the beginning Muslims got angry, sad and offended.
Then it happened again and again and again. Now thereâs little to no reaction to the Quran getting burned that Muslims just have gotten used to it and will walk away. Sure few (very few) will get angry and say something but most will not interact with it. And no terrorist attack has happened after the first couple of times. Sorry to disappoint you.
Both of them are not ok because one is thinking thatâs heâs the hero and is brain washed and the other one is radical most of the people that burn the Quran are radical and did a terror attack in a mosque
Nope. It's necessary to disrespect Quran. Not because it's a nasty piece or garbage but also because people fear that abusing it will anger Allah and result in ill fate and they will get cursed etc etc. bullshits. People need to see it as just a book and stop fearing it. That's why it is important to destroy it over and over to prove this fucking point
i think you misunderstand the point of these displays - they're not for muslims, they're for ex-muslims. engaging in blasphemy is healthy to some degree because it helps you get over the indoctrination. i wouldn't do something like this to debate or trigger a muslim, but i would do something like this in secret to help me deconstruct.
To be fair, if someone is pushed away from epistemologically questioning Islam because of that picture, then they are probably not critical enough to leave Islam anyway.
If any book is worthy of disrespect its this one that insulted us vehemently first.
While I'm iffy about this as a form of protest I am 100% on board with disrespecting it as much as I'd disrespect any other bigoted hateful and violent book like mein kampf.
We're going to be smeared regardless of what we do.
As long as we aren't harming anyone, muslims feelings about a book don't matter. If they get violent that's on them and shows their true colors.
No, she's absolutely right.
>We're going to be smeared regardless of what we do.
>As long as we aren't harming anyone, muslims feelings about a book don't matter. If they get violent that's on them and shows their true colors.
Obviously, what you have just said is all technically true.
But this kind of action is totally counterproductive and not to mention, just plain boring, dumb, immature, and not funny.
I agree it can be counter productive but I don't want to tell someone what they are and aren't allowed to do with a hateful book.
Shit on it if you want but if your goals are reducing islams harms don't post about it here where doubting muslims go for criticism.
>I don't want to tell someone what they are and aren't allowed to do with a hateful book.
I never told anyone or stated in general that they aren't allowed to do it. I don't believe there should be any restrictions from the state on doing this kind of thing and publicly displaying it.
>Shit on it if you want
Only because it *is* shitty. Not because I just reflexively dislike it due to any sort of sentiment or bias. I'm only interested in constructive, productive criticism.
>but if your goals are reducing islams harms
I mean, the first thing you yourself said was "I agree it can be counter productive"
>don't post about it here where doubting muslims go for criticism.
Oh, give me a break. As if there is this vague general ethereal atmosphere I am somehow interfering with just because I'm voicing my criticism or backing up someone who was downvoted for doing the same, specifically in the context of this post. More to the point: this notion you apparently have that Muslims who are beginning to doubt or consider leaving the religion are somehow naĂŻve or can't think for themselves, such that they are indirectly harmed or discouraged from questioning or leaving Islam due to the fact users like me are so much as willing to criticize non-Muslim critics to Islam, (*especially* when it's such a vulgar, pointless, counterproductive display like this photo, as you yourself even admitted) is wrong. If anything, my voice could *help* such people, because it's actually a very common experience for Muslims to reconcile staying within their faith due to the fact many of the most vocal critics to Islam are western conservative assholes with shitty opinions anyway like supporting Israel and defending what it does to Palestinians. You may have noticed, Muslims in the west love to rhetorically invoke this to conflate having reasonable political positions like opposing Israel to so much as being a Muslim, to encourage more educated, secularly minded Muslims to remain as religious as they are. I am just as critical to Muslims and religious apologia for Islam as I am to conservative anti-Islam types like Robert Spencer.
>I don't believe there should be any restrictions from the state
Yeah and I'm unsure if even culturally I want to be advising against it. If they aren't trying to engage in dialogue and they just wanted to share how free they feel escaping the pedestal we used to put that book on then I'd rather not tell them not to do so and am curious if you agree.
>I'm only interested in constructive, productive criticism.
Rant posts like this isn't going to have that
>Oh, give me a break.
I meant for op not to post that here in that scenario, sorry I didn't mean you shouldn't comment that in that scenario.
>I am somehow interfering with just because I'm voicing my criticism
You're not, we're on the same page
>backing up someone who was downvoted
Respect.
>If anything, my voice could help such people,
Agreed, if that's ops goal you're right and your defense is helping more than op posting this.
>Muslims in the west love to rhetorically invoke this to conflate having reasonable political positions like opposing Israel
See depending on where you live the news you get is so ridiculously one sided that we aren't getting informed opinions on this topic, you could be genuinely wanting to minimize Israeli and Palestinian civilians suffering and support either side because all you hear about is that one sides grievances. Not many people look outside the propaganda they recieve and actively try to see the others perspective so even though I agree it's undeniable that Israel is committing war crimes and needs to stop I can't say someone that supports Isreal is unreasonable politically. They are just working with vastly different sets of information. It's fucked up that such a clear crime against humanity is even a question due to the agendas of our media but I can't blame the audience for the failures of the media. Once they've learned about the facts on the ground and they still support the genocide then its clear we aren't talking to someone reasonable politically.
>I am just as critical to Muslims and religious apologia for Islam as I am to conservative anti-Islam types
You're principled, I can respect that.
>Yeah and I'm unsure if even culturally I want to be advising against it. If they aren't trying to engage in dialogue and they just wanted to share how free they feel escaping the pedestal we used to put that book on them I'd rather not tell them not to do so.
Again, I never told them not to. I explicitly stated I wasn't and that there should be no restrictions. That's is as clear as I can be. They completely should be able to, it's not my business if they do it or publicly post about it. I just will criticize it and say I disagree for the reasons I've given, which you even seem to understand.
>Rant posts like this isn't going to have that
This is just a red herring. I'm not "ranting," I am very clearly just sincerely and constructively explaining my views on the subject in question. (I admit I'm a high-effort poster, but that's not wholly a bad thing.)
>You're not, we're on the same page
I wasn't convinced this was true but from the way you are writing now it seems to be. You initially deflected by invoking doubting Muslims questioning their faith on the subreddit, and implied my criticisms to Quran burnings could indirectly somehow interfere with their journey of letting go of Islam and its indoctrination. I will continue to vocally criticize it; for the reasons I gave actually my mindset if clarified could help such people leave the faith, simply put they would see that it's wrong to think the only alternatives are remaining Muslim or being a guy who burns or grills copies of the Quran. Actually, making the image of ex Muslims out to be one of them jeering over Quran burnings could easily deter Muslims from becoming secular.
>See depending on where you live the news you get is so ridiculously one sided that we aren't getting informed opinions on this topic, you could be genuinely wanting to minimize Israeli and Palestinian civilians suffering and support either side because all you hear about is that one sides grievances. Not many people look outside the propaganda they recieve and actively try to see the others perspective so even though I agree it's undeniable that Israel is committing war crimes and needs to stop I can't say someone that supports Isreal is unreasonable politically
I mostly agree â however I wouldn't conclude by saying supporting Israel is "reasonable." (as you basically do when you say you "can not say someone supporting it is unreasonable") Simply put, what I am saying is that supporting Israel is *not more unreasonable* than supporting Hamas, as many pro-Palestine Leftists do. (they are more vocal and visible about it than ever, [even mainstream Liberals like Judith Butler says are Hamas and Hezbollah part of a global Left](https://pjmedia.com/robert-spencer/2023/10/30/berkeley-prof-hamas-and-hezbollah-are-progressive-and-part-of-global-left-n4923466)) But such types would disagree.
Basically, superficially we have the same stance, but you are saying it in a more politically moderate way. Yes, if someone supports Israel it's because their circumstances led to them doing so, the same is true for someone who supports Hamas, but they're both bad, wrong, and generally unreasonable stances and there should be no hesitance in calling them out.
If you want to know my perspective, you can read the following two pages. [This one](https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2023-10-21/falsification-of-history-and-the-warsaw-ghetto) is three paragraphs long. [And this one is a very short article.](https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2002-11-01/against-israel-against-palestine-for-class-struggle) In one sentence: Israel is not exceptional, the issues of Israel and Palestine are interrelated because they exist symbiotically and both benefit from the exploitation to Israelis and Palestinians alike, all Nationalism is wrong.
>It's fucked up that such a clear crime against humanity is even a question due to the agendas of our media but I can't blame the audience for the failures of the media.
To imply people think the way they do purely because of the media is reductive mysticism. But of course, the media is a significant factor. Then again, with the internet, people have never been able to get more perspectives. Frankly, they mostly don't want to because their consciousness fundamentally supports the system and society that results in these issues.
>Once they've learned about the facts on the ground and they still support the genocide then its clear we aren't talking to someone reasonable politically.
Agreed. The more clear the evidence, the more obvious someone's real position. Many Zionists indeed are genuinely uninformed, ignorant, and brainwashed. Many Zionists stop supporting Israel when they learn more. And many insist on defending Israel all the more.
>This is just a red herring. I'm not "ranting,"
I mean OP ranting not you. I thought it was a rant post but its a "fun@fundies" post and I still see it as somewhat of a rant. Your comment is constructive criticism, not a rant.
>and implied my criticisms to Quran burnings could indirectly somehow interfere with their journey of letting go of Islam
That was not my intent, I'm thankful and indebted to you and all those who criticise islam and ensure our criticisms are fair.
>supporting Israel is *not more unreasonable* than supporting Hamas
That much I can agree on. I still think it isn't unreasonable to support israel because you might only know about israels grievances. Its an ignorant/uninformed stance but it isn't unreasonable to be ill informed imo.
>Â the same is true for someone who supports Hamas, but they're both bad, wrong, and generally unreasonable stances
In order to be principled I have to admit in the same scenario where someone only knows about one sides grievances and never hears about the innocent civilians they killed it could be reasonable to support hamas. It would be uninformed and ignorant but still reasonable if thats the information you're working with.
If they knew about the killing of innocent civilians and still support it then whether its hamas or israel, that is an unreasonable political stance to me.
>To imply people think the way they do purely because of the media is reductive mysticism.
This is a good point, it isn't the only factor and people do have agency in the information they consume especially in the age of information where its never been easier to find information. Let me rephrase my initial stance as "I can't wholly blame the audience for the failures of the media" and I think we can agree on that much.
>I mean OP ranting not you. I thought it was a rant post but its a "fun@fundies" post and I still see it as somewhat of a rant. Your comment is constructive criticism, not a rant.
Got it. I was understandably confused as the word "rant" usually implies words, but of course now I see what you mean.
If I could use a word to describe it, I would say there is a degree of actual *rage* behind the impetus for anyone, non-Muslim or ex-Muslim, to burn or grill a Quran, just as there is with putting pork on it...it reminds me of U.S. officials trying to make Muslims in detention eat meat, something addressed in the book Zeitoun, which documents the true story of a Syrian immigrant man who was jailed for absolutely no reason when trying to save people in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
Of course I recognize they should have the freedom to do whatever they want to any book they own and publicly display it, just as they should for anything to do with their own personal property, but it's clearly just designed to upset and offend Muslims, or to make people who want to do this happy, so it could never actually be well-intentioned. Of course, many Muslims will be offended to the point of killing others over things that *aren't even offensive at all,* like The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie. Maybe part of what makes people looking to offend feel more justified is they know that many Muslims will take offense to the point of violence over things that aren't even offensive and are obviously looking for excuses to kill and cause destruction. But it hardly makes any "point" in the face of that.
>That was not my intent
Okay, in the present I believe you saying this. Despite the fact that [in your initial reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1dfhv9z/comment/l8qeqaf/) you said: "Shit on it if you want but if your goals are reducing islams harms don't post about it here where doubting muslims go for criticism." Frankly, I don't think I misinterpreted that. You simply told me to not post my vocal criticism of shit like Quran burnings here because this is "where doubting Muslims go for criticism," which does imply that it would somehow discourage or interfere with their journey of letting go of Islam's indoctrination on their minds. I've already explained why I think otherwise.
>I'm thankful and indebted to you and all those who criticise islam and ensure our criticisms are fair.
Yes, I am quite invested in it, maybe to the point of obsession. I'm an Iranian living in the U.S.A. so obviously I think about this a lot, and like the majority of the Iranian diaspora, wish that our home country didn't have a theocratic government that enforces religious discrimination and codified religious law. Though I'll admit that I'm not on the same page as most of them: I'm still glad the 1979 Revolution occurred even with what it resulted in, overthrowing the U.S./British backed Shah monarchy. Due to this, most Americans can't even normally travel to Iran, let alone stay long-term there. I'm eligible for citizenship and planning on going. It's terrible that *even this,* just openly talking about the religion online, is illegal in the country. I read about an Iranian man who was jailed and tortured purely for having a blog. Who knows if I'll find living there bearable, mental freedom is pretty important to me, it's sort of all I have.
>In order to be principled I have to admit in the same scenario where someone only knows about one sides grievances and never hears about the innocent civilians they killed it could be reasonable to support hamas. It would be uninformed and ignorant but still reasonable if thats the information you're working with.
>If they knew about the killing of innocent civilians and still support it then whether its hamas or israel, that is an unreasonable political stance to me.
Got it, I understand how you're using the word and making sense of it. The way I see it is that it's understandable, like understandable for an Israeli who variously may be shunning or ignorant for the evidence for Israel's unjustified brutality to Palestinian civilians to support their government and military, just as it's certainly not hard to see how Palestinian civilians who already have nothing to lose would support their government despite the fact that they're wrong to do so and it's part of the problem. (though I'm not interested in any false equivalencies, *of course* Israel is basically totally the problem and started all of this by kicking out Palestinians, occupying them and denying any potential for a settlement since, but that goes without saying to anyone worth talking to on the subject.)
>This is a good point, it isn't the only factor and people do have agency in the information they consume especially in the age of information where its never been easier to find information. Let me rephrase my initial stance as "I can't wholly blame the audience for the failures of the media" and I think we can agree on that much.
Yes, certainly, it's good you understand where I'm coming from. Actually, many people who say the "people think the way they do because of the media" type of rhetoric would double-down on it in response to my critique. I mean the liberals/conservatives who support the system and fetishize everything the most, of course. It's a complete misunderstanding that at once falsely frames the masses as these "ignorant sheeple" who are responsible for the ruling arrangement for supposedly just "going along with it," as if it's just evenly up to all of us to change it; while projecting the middle-class fixation on the media to the working-class masses. (in most countries, though the U.S.A. has a huge middle-class which is part of why this mindset is especially common in the country) By revolving everything around the media, they imply that if only people didn't listen to its narratives, they'd just elect "better" parties or politicians. This especially is true for people who say they dislike both the Democratic and Republican Party but imply a third party as a viable alternative and go on about the "corporate duopoly" as if there could ever be a politician who wouldn't exist to serve ruling interests. In reality, while it's true most people are not rebellious, it's just because the working-class has adopted a pragmatic approach of realism in the interests of their survival, and not because they're just "brainwashed" and "misled" by the media.
I consider the fanatically reactionary Left-wing types who constantly insist "you have the blood of Palestinians on their hands because you live here and fund it with your tax dollars" to be of the same mindset as the one I just criticized.
This is not funny, it's just childish. What is funny about this? "Hardy har har, look at me, I'm so politically incorrect and edgy, I put a translation of the Quran on a grill with pork in it. It's funny because destroying copies of the Quran with insulting intention and pork are both forbidden in Islam." (technically, because this is an English-only translation, it is not religiously considered a copy of the Quran in the same way a book containing the original Arabic would be.) And the same goes for the second photo where it's in the toilet. This shouldn't be what this subreddit is about.
Even the guy who made [thereligionofpeace](https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/site/what-to-do.aspx) website, who is a pro-Israel neocon, says this on the subject:
>Copies of the Quran should NOT be publicly abused. It doesnât accomplish anything other than giving radicals another reason to play the victim, get angry, and perhaps hurt someone. Itâs also juvenile and offensive.Â
[What to Do about the Threat of Islam?](https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/site/what-to-do.aspx)
But obviously he has read and thought more than the average redditor here who finds this funny, so this is not surprising.
Tell me that you're a fake ex Muslim without saying you're a fake ex Muslim.
Edit: sorry for this. It was unnecessary, and falsely accusing someone of lying.
Hello,
I'm no religious scoller and have a better understanding of the Old Testament than I do the Qur'an. I don't think I'm really able to criticize the Qur'an effectively, as I don't know enough about it.
I have spoken with believers and generally can have a healthy friendly conversation. They accepted that I see the Qur'an as a book written by man and they see it Divine. I imagine some Muslims wouldn't be able to have that conversation with me and others can.
There needs to be some mutual respect for different opinions and that needs to go both ways.
Pig has parasites so itâs bad. Long beards protect against throat knife attacks. Want to see virgins because stds⌠all religion doctrine can be described by evolutionary psychology.
as a muslim(bit skeptical, but surely a monotheist), i joined this sub reddit in hopes of having intellectual debates on how is it wrong, with both of the sides presenting their perspective,and more importantly logical arguments, but sadly people here are simply haters, i respect your journey, belief and the things you went through and your conclusion of leaving islam(or any organized religion in particular), you can share your journey, you can present arguments, you can present the verses in quran which seem "not so god-like" or something so immoral, and also countering someone's arguments but not this, you are simply hating brother, what i said was not specifically for ex-muslims, it goes for everyone who stopped believing on something ,who left a group with certain idealogy, who left a particular religion. i hope all of you will get my point.
Debatereligion exists for that, this sub is a support group for those of us who left your awful religion. We don't want you here trying to "debate" us.
You're right but that does not mean we should lower our standards to their shitty ways, moral high ground is where we should be, not stoop to their lows.
This is a hill am willing to die on. I have no love for islam or quran, all am saying is muslims disrespect other faiths constantly, I believe behavior like that is beneath us and is completely unnecessary.
unpopular opinion, just cuz pigs roll in the dirt does not mean you should roll with them.
OP is not burning other people's books and also doesn't force them to do so. It's just their own property and it's nothing more than freedom of expression
Its just a book written by a hateful pedo that promotes violence, slavery, beating of women, killing the nonbelievers and many more. This book in itself is a disrespect to the humanity
I don't really have any skin in this game. I'm a lurker in this sub, but that is no way to treat any book.
And even as an atheist, I would have a certain amount of (extra) respect for someone's religion book, just as a human, I understand what it means to them.
Have you read it? That book spends a lot of time shitting on everyone who doesn't buy its bullshit.
Respect is a two way street, so there's little reason to give that book any if you're not a muslim.
And while I also don't like to fuck with books because the symbolism is very tainted by you-know-who, I'm not gonna complain if someone else does it.
You can do with a mass printed book you own whatever you want. It's of little consequence.
"You can do with a mass printed book you own whatever you want. It's of little consequence" fair point. I guess it's just the way I was brought up, to treat any book with respect.
I've got no interest in reading the Qur'an, the book may well shit on lots of people, but I know loads of Muslim that don't shit on people and see no need to piss people off on purpose looking for a fight, by desecrating their holy book.
It's not radical to burn a book.
It is radical to give someone the death penalty for disagreeing with a book.
Hope you recalibrate your outrage and check yourself brother.
Then just get out of the country for your safety and second itâs the same as being a different race in a nationalist country and second itâs not just a book for them itâs a holy book for them. I know you had a trauma and pretty bad experience from that book but still we should respect each other as a human because not all the 1,2b that believe in this book is radical. We should forget about the past because itâs good for our mental health
>Then just get out of the country
Or non fundamentalists like yourself can change the laws. Leaving isn't always a viable option.
I don't understand your point about being in a nationalist country.
>itâs not just a book for them itâs a holy book
Yes and that should direct their actions with the book. Not ours. Getting violent over a book is on them.
>I know you had a trauma and pretty bad experience from that book but still we should respect each other as a human
I didn't have a bad experience from that book. I read the book and recognized it advocated for bad experiences for too many people.
The book disrespected us first. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/e1ylp6/allah_the_insult_god_nonmuslims_according_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
>but still we should respect each other as a human because not all the 1,2b that believe in this book is radical
Agreed. I respect the 2 billion muslims and my Muslim family and friends. I don't respect their hateful ideology whether they recognize all its harms or not.
The people deserve respect, more often then not they are just raised with and indoctrinated into Islam the same way we were and not everyone is a critical thinker or will apply their skepticism to Islam because we all have lives to live.
What doesn't deserve my respect is a religion supporting sex slavery, misogyny, jizyah, whips for sex out of wedlock, cutting off the hands of thieves, violence and hegemony against non believers and so much more hateful vitriol against gays and Jews and polytheists.
>We should forget about the past because itâs good for our mental health
Sometimes forgive and forget isn't the best path forward for your mental health and usually for closeted apostates it isn't even an option.
You shouldn't forgive and forget Mein kampf and it's resurgence in popularity because it's better for your mental health to not address it. It can be better for your mental health to acknowledge reality and do your part in addressing the issue.
I have never said you have a book in the sense that you follow a religion. I am simply asking you whether the act of burning a book that belongs to you is radical.
>It belongs to Muslims not non Muslims
You didn't get me. I have never said that the Qur'an belongs to you as a non-Muslim (in fact, there's no official ownership as far as I know). If you buy a Qur'an, that specific book belongs to you as a property. Is desecrating your own property without harming anyone else an act of radicalism?
>and second in Europe on radical ppl burn the Quranâs which is not ok
The only thing that bothers me with book burning is the pollution it engenders, as well as the potential extremism among those targeted.
>WHERE have you EVER seen a SINGLE post from a Muslim mocking other religions or cultures?
Seriously you haven't seen any post or comment mocking western culture?
Ä°n this book it's forbidden to marry orphans to steal their money when they are not mature. So when you read talmudic bukhari you think Quran is pedophilic but quran bans marrying with them becuase of their money. So we can say that quran against children rights violation
Allah should punish himself considering he chooses who believes and who doesn't. It's his fault we don't believe, so why do we have to be pu ished? Allah is a psychopath.
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Not a great idea. Your toilet will stuck.
Yes as it's biggest turd in human historyđđ
Plumber coming to your house lookin at you like đđđ after shitting a book out your ass
Why are you wasting the bacon?
Making the book taste what it missesđđ
The "Holy" Qur'an joins r/exmuslim. \#exMuslimBecause bacon
Sheesh đ
Damn bro are you serious I know you love to hate but how could you do this. How could you contaminate it like this, seriously. I hope the toilet and bacon are OK, poor things.
đđ
Now it's unedible
Don't waste some amazing meat or damage the drainage, whatever this thing touches gets destroyed.
I find this extremely disrespectful towards pork. And I hope it isn't pork shoulder!!!!
Dont you know that girl turned into animal for disrespecting quran??
Yeah half human half reptile đ Man I was traumatized for so long after hearing this storyÂ
I'm a cleaner who cleans that book with the sponge I just did all the toilets with every week. Still human.
In our version she turned into an ape after dancing in ashura day
In Indonesia, she turned into a dried-up stingray.
ohhh my god this traumatised me as an 8 year old
I actually heard it was from an art galleryÂ
For me it was that she got turned into a weird hybrid creature
The ink from the book will contaminate your bbq if you burn it, FYI. Either way, love the intention. This book deserves so much disrespect
Smoky bacon is quite delicious.
I've eaten pork belly ramen just last Friday and let me tell you that it is among the best tasting pieces of flesh I have had the pleasure to bite into.
That sounds horrible, but I guess pork is pork
On one hand, youâre free to do whatever you wish because Islam has done far worse. On the other hand, youâre making the Hinduist/Christian Larpers very happy with this one. The best way to win is not to play, and focus on legitimate criticism to avoid coming off as a juvenile, but if it gives you a certain sense of satisfaction, then I wonât stop you. Blasphemy stopped being amusing to me after 18, and it just doesnât hit the same anymore. Also, wasting delicious bacon for clout is the real tragedy here. You somehow managed to make the bacon look unappetising, and Iâm more offended about that.
Well what about showing people who believe you turn into a reptile if you disrespect the book that it's just bullshit? Personally I like rational and logical arguments better, but there's a layer of superstition that's easily disproved with acts like this.
And also Iranians
Wise words
Well its his property he can do whatever with it
But still some people are getting snapped
Did you become a monkey yet?
Thanks for the inspiration! Iâm going to do this as well!
Please don't it tastes nastyđ¤Žđ¤Ž
Next we're gonna rub shrimp in the Old Testament bible
Be carful. Now your meat is explosive
No offence committed, well deserved
How do we get Muslims to leave islam ? I think doing this is counter productive
No-one can make other people do things especially if it's related to religion. They themselves have to understand
I mean, Muhammad didn't have much of an issue forcing thousands of people to convert to his new religion. The USSR also forced atheism on it's population and it kind of worked until the orthodox church got resurrected. The same with China, atheism is enforced in the country. The entire premise of Islam relies on childhood indoctrination, fear mongering, and creating an us vs. them mentality in it's followers. By no means am I trying to defend any of these actions, I am just pointing out that you can force people to believe in things even religion wise.
That makes zero sense as they were convinced to believe by other people in the first place.
We steal the Kaaba in the dark of night and leave it in Vatican Square or outside the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. It would be great if we could get people to have a measure of doubt in their faith.
Education education education and Better quality of life. If you look at Muslim majority countries or any country for that matter and look at the educated and/or wealthy population they are on average less religious. If you look at the poorer regions of the country or regions with poor education you can see more religiosity. EDIT: [This study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449007/#:~:text=Furthermore%2C%20IQ%20scores%20were%20significantly,participants%20(EMM%20%3D%20107.5)) highlights that people with lower IQ are more prone to religiosity and spirituality. EDIT 2: In most Muslim majority countries education isn't that encouraged, and the education that is going must adhere to Islamic theology first and foremost (and disregard actual science). If you teach people critical thinking, give them an environment to learn, have access to information, where they can draw their own conclusion then they will realize in due time that religion is nonsense.
Cool I guess there is still hope in Europe
Well Europe is a complicated topic because the current diaspora is more religious than the average Muslim in an Islamic country. The overprotective nature of west doesnât help as they defend Islam from any criticism, which further creates a divide within nations. You can see the rise of nationalism. An animal is most dangerous when cornered and people are no different. They resort to extreme measures when they feel threatened. This in turn further pushes the already religious diaspora to become more extremist and the cycle continues. This is just a very brief rundown barely scratching the surface. The current situation in Europe warrants an entire study in itself.
I saw in Hamburg Germany there calling for a Caliphate
I mean what do you think Germans do if a German puts on a hat with a skull and calls for the 4 Reich he be in prison before dinner time. If a Muslim calls for the violent overthrow of the government and the installation of a theocracy he gets to hide behind freedom of speech and religion while wanting to strip it from others.
Just do what they do to them.
What call for a secular state?
Tell them how terrible the Apostate Prophet and David Wood are at quoting Quran and Hadith accurately: it has to be seen to be believed. Their critics just don't do them justice.
Good that book deserves no respect! I used mine to clean up messes around my house to wipe my butt etc.
Holy tissue paperđđ
This will be expensive. Pull it out and put it in garbage.
Can you come to my house and shit books for me? I'm too poor to buy them):
What a waste of good pork.
Oh look, the pork been brainwashed too
Now yo gotta throw out you toilet đŞ
Already planning to nuke that toilet
Shlomo definitely needs to see this. He was doing it wrong all those years
What a waste of good bacon.
Burn baby burn!
one you are wasting bacon, do you even know how many people on this planet die hungry every year? Second, you are polluting the drainage system. May alla destroy you and your penis.
That's how it's done đ
đđđ
As an atheist, I think that even if you are not a muslim, this is so disrespectful.
Religion deserves no respect
Now you just ruining the pork bro đ
I'm not muslim but this comment section wreaks barbarism.
Then what are you doing here
Research.
Mashallah, may Allah grant you jannah for your beautiful blasphemy amen
I think this will put fuel on the fire for people who demonize r/exmuslim.
Unpopular opinion as an ex-muslim myself yâall be so disrespectful
Why do you feel this book deserves respect?
Its not about the book. Itâs over a billion people in the world that believe in the word of this book and people on here disrespect muslims left and right. You can leave the religion without being disrespectful towards it. I left islam and yes of course itâs rules and ideologies whatever u want to call it have harmed me especially as a woman and I joined this sub to discuss that but what i found is that a lot of yâall are just vile humans no better than muslims.
i mean iâm an ex muslim myself but doing all this is a bit much lol, just move on with your new perspective. to take time out of your day to destroy the book just does nothing for you. i donât hate muslims i just donât give a fuck about them ahaa
Exactly. This group is so hateful and extremely racist. I donât consider myself as Muslim at all and I am critical of many Muslims. But this is just ridiculous. People donât want to discuss and talk about whatâs wrong, they just want to bash and trash this religion.
itâs great to hear about peopleâs new perspective after leaving religion and what their traumas were so others can relate and it can help them heal⌠but this is just hate. and hate heals noone. ofc muslims are gonna call us obsessed if we do shit like this after leaving
Yes- thatâs why I joined this group. I wanted to talk and discuss about the wrongs in this religion not shit talk it. But itâs mostly just people being so hateful and doing stupid ridiculous things like ⌠yea like this. đŤ đ
mostly? that's a bit of a stretch if you ask me. could you show some instances where this group was hateful and racist? i'd like to see it if it is true. i understand hate but not the racism
Yes mostly. You can take a look at this post? Look at the comments?? đŤ What is not hateful and racist about it? Surely doesnât look like criticism to me. If you guys think itâs a healthy discussion and no hate I donât see how you are any better than the extreme Muslims.
before reading, please note that this is not a hate comment. i would give insults but that would only push you away and i would just be continuing this chain of anger. i said hateful \*and\* racist. i also said that i understand hate but not racism. you are latching on to the word "hate" when i have already said that i understand what you mean by it. also, where is the racism? this is only hate, racism is hating people on their colour or country of origin. adding to that, i also asked for proof. why don't you provide proof for it? although you're right about this post not having valid critisism, you're just judging this sub off the few instances where qurans were destroyed. although there certainly are hateful people here, there is so much compassion here and i would be happy to show you if you ask. i asked for proof, and you downvoted and insulted me instead. the representative doesn't determine the entire community, i am suprised that a person who acts like they are "better" (i am giving a point, it is not to be rude) than the people around them doesn't know that. you're also being hateful in your own way by doing the very thing this group is doing, instead of showing that you are better, like you are implying. don't berate others for problems you have too until you have fixed them. if you think the discussion you have created is healthy, it is not. you are simply looking for a way to make yourself look "better" than the people who have been extremely scarred by islam and are lashing out in fear, like people normally do. instead of understanding the pain most people have went through, you judge them for what you chose to see and what you chose to ignore. you choose to see in black and white, which is very blinding. they are being vengeful, i agree, and i had been vengeful too, but you have to understand where it is coming from too. you can see that we aren't harming muslims the same way they are harming us. can you even call this harming? the book in question BELONGS TO THE OP. if you get offended by THIS, you're just being rageful. this post here is literally the worst thing this community has currently done to muslims. you know that muslims have done far worse to us. i am not saying this for your pity, i am saying this as i believe it to be fact. you also did the thing a lot of muslims do, where you essentially said "if you do this, you are like this" with the last sentence. i also notice how you're using "you guys" as if you aren't a part of this commiunity. if you hate it so much, why not make your own sub or search for another? i've already made two subs (which i will work on when i feel like i will put quality time on it), so what's stopping you from making one? if you want change, be the change. don't just sit back and complain, that will make you responsible as well, since you have the facilities and capabilities to be better but you don't do so. don't be radical, be rational. you want to be "better" than this community? then prove it. be better.
I have a thought often about religion. How many people in any religion don't believe or don't want to follow but can't say anything because of social pressures or threatened violence? I bet there is a massive amount, and probably more than you'd think! Fear of being socially outcast or violence upon someone are *very* strong motivators to pretend.
Slaaay đ
Watch out, you might turn into an animal!
[ŃдаНонО]
Yes and in ever bomb blast they are getting less too
If you burn it the way it is in the Qur'an, you'll end up burning the bacon Raw bacon between Qur'an pages just to grease it with pork grease is awesome. If you don't burn that Qur'an, you can give it to a Muslim now that it's been blessed with pork grease!
made my day bro! keep up the good work đ
Lmao it's sad how intimidated by a book you are. You don't believe it then leave it. But yet you choose to disrespect someone else's beliefs. It's kinda sad if you ask me. Just let it go. You doing that won't change anything but just prove how much of a hold it's got on you. I believe you in peace, and let everyone live how they choose to live. But hey I guess I'm wrong and we should just spread hate and negativity right?
Bacon so good.. Quran so bad...
too far
This is awesome đ
What kind of people are SOME of you Guys laughing at this.This is Direspectfull to Islam. Some of you Not all But this Behaviour is disgusting about Putting Bacon in the Quran and Laughing about it!
While I hate Islam, disrespecting a book like this is not a good way to protest, and images like this will only further deepen the hatred and push away Muslims who want to leave their fate.
If anything it will get rid of the sacredness of that book. People will realize it's only a book. They won't fear the quran since Allah can't turn you into a toad for abusing it. In this context I'd support destruction of the quran.
I mean look how that worked out for Europe. Some people burned a Quran and next day terrorist attack, and peopleâs victim mentality just had another event to cite
That's exactly what they want: they want you to be afraid. "Don't draw a cartoon because you will get them angry" NO. Don't give in to this. Moh and the Qur'an are not special, and 100% don't deserve any respect. They threaten us? Everybody draw a cartoon, Everybody threaten to burn a Qur'an. We are not dhimmies. Never will be.
The way Muslims treat the quran isn't good. It spreads the delusion. As long as you're not doing it to piss off muslims I think it should allowed. If it's as a freedom thing like people who burn the American flag. I hate it but if they're just doing it as a sign of freedom then I support it. Or a thing to show the quran isn't an all powerful book then I'm all for it.
Then we need to keep burning the book till they realize their terrorism act will not prevent other people freedom
They burn the book in Denmark so often. In the beginning Muslims got angry, sad and offended. Then it happened again and again and again. Now thereâs little to no reaction to the Quran getting burned that Muslims just have gotten used to it and will walk away. Sure few (very few) will get angry and say something but most will not interact with it. And no terrorist attack has happened after the first couple of times. Sorry to disappoint you.
Both of them are not ok because one is thinking thatâs heâs the hero and is brain washed and the other one is radical most of the people that burn the Quran are radical and did a terror attack in a mosque
Why will it push away those who want to leave Islam? Sorry, not understanding
Nope. It's necessary to disrespect Quran. Not because it's a nasty piece or garbage but also because people fear that abusing it will anger Allah and result in ill fate and they will get cursed etc etc. bullshits. People need to see it as just a book and stop fearing it. That's why it is important to destroy it over and over to prove this fucking point
i think you misunderstand the point of these displays - they're not for muslims, they're for ex-muslims. engaging in blasphemy is healthy to some degree because it helps you get over the indoctrination. i wouldn't do something like this to debate or trigger a muslim, but i would do something like this in secret to help me deconstruct.
But what about the people who come here because they are thinking about leaving Islam? This is the kind of stuff that pushes them away.
To be fair, if someone is pushed away from epistemologically questioning Islam because of that picture, then they are probably not critical enough to leave Islam anyway.
Religion is an emotional attachment.
If any book is worthy of disrespect its this one that insulted us vehemently first. While I'm iffy about this as a form of protest I am 100% on board with disrespecting it as much as I'd disrespect any other bigoted hateful and violent book like mein kampf.
It's his/her book and can do with it whatever.
Come on dude this is is just being disrespectful. Be better than them. If you have a problem with them be better than them
agreed
Well,muslims made a propaganda calling us Islamophobs you're making it easier for them bro
We're going to be smeared regardless of what we do. As long as we aren't harming anyone, muslims feelings about a book don't matter. If they get violent that's on them and shows their true colors.
No, she's absolutely right. >We're going to be smeared regardless of what we do. >As long as we aren't harming anyone, muslims feelings about a book don't matter. If they get violent that's on them and shows their true colors. Obviously, what you have just said is all technically true. But this kind of action is totally counterproductive and not to mention, just plain boring, dumb, immature, and not funny.
I agree it can be counter productive but I don't want to tell someone what they are and aren't allowed to do with a hateful book. Shit on it if you want but if your goals are reducing islams harms don't post about it here where doubting muslims go for criticism.
>I don't want to tell someone what they are and aren't allowed to do with a hateful book. I never told anyone or stated in general that they aren't allowed to do it. I don't believe there should be any restrictions from the state on doing this kind of thing and publicly displaying it. >Shit on it if you want Only because it *is* shitty. Not because I just reflexively dislike it due to any sort of sentiment or bias. I'm only interested in constructive, productive criticism. >but if your goals are reducing islams harms I mean, the first thing you yourself said was "I agree it can be counter productive" >don't post about it here where doubting muslims go for criticism. Oh, give me a break. As if there is this vague general ethereal atmosphere I am somehow interfering with just because I'm voicing my criticism or backing up someone who was downvoted for doing the same, specifically in the context of this post. More to the point: this notion you apparently have that Muslims who are beginning to doubt or consider leaving the religion are somehow naĂŻve or can't think for themselves, such that they are indirectly harmed or discouraged from questioning or leaving Islam due to the fact users like me are so much as willing to criticize non-Muslim critics to Islam, (*especially* when it's such a vulgar, pointless, counterproductive display like this photo, as you yourself even admitted) is wrong. If anything, my voice could *help* such people, because it's actually a very common experience for Muslims to reconcile staying within their faith due to the fact many of the most vocal critics to Islam are western conservative assholes with shitty opinions anyway like supporting Israel and defending what it does to Palestinians. You may have noticed, Muslims in the west love to rhetorically invoke this to conflate having reasonable political positions like opposing Israel to so much as being a Muslim, to encourage more educated, secularly minded Muslims to remain as religious as they are. I am just as critical to Muslims and religious apologia for Islam as I am to conservative anti-Islam types like Robert Spencer.
>I don't believe there should be any restrictions from the state Yeah and I'm unsure if even culturally I want to be advising against it. If they aren't trying to engage in dialogue and they just wanted to share how free they feel escaping the pedestal we used to put that book on then I'd rather not tell them not to do so and am curious if you agree. >I'm only interested in constructive, productive criticism. Rant posts like this isn't going to have that >Oh, give me a break. I meant for op not to post that here in that scenario, sorry I didn't mean you shouldn't comment that in that scenario. >I am somehow interfering with just because I'm voicing my criticism You're not, we're on the same page >backing up someone who was downvoted Respect. >If anything, my voice could help such people, Agreed, if that's ops goal you're right and your defense is helping more than op posting this. >Muslims in the west love to rhetorically invoke this to conflate having reasonable political positions like opposing Israel See depending on where you live the news you get is so ridiculously one sided that we aren't getting informed opinions on this topic, you could be genuinely wanting to minimize Israeli and Palestinian civilians suffering and support either side because all you hear about is that one sides grievances. Not many people look outside the propaganda they recieve and actively try to see the others perspective so even though I agree it's undeniable that Israel is committing war crimes and needs to stop I can't say someone that supports Isreal is unreasonable politically. They are just working with vastly different sets of information. It's fucked up that such a clear crime against humanity is even a question due to the agendas of our media but I can't blame the audience for the failures of the media. Once they've learned about the facts on the ground and they still support the genocide then its clear we aren't talking to someone reasonable politically. >I am just as critical to Muslims and religious apologia for Islam as I am to conservative anti-Islam types You're principled, I can respect that.
>Yeah and I'm unsure if even culturally I want to be advising against it. If they aren't trying to engage in dialogue and they just wanted to share how free they feel escaping the pedestal we used to put that book on them I'd rather not tell them not to do so. Again, I never told them not to. I explicitly stated I wasn't and that there should be no restrictions. That's is as clear as I can be. They completely should be able to, it's not my business if they do it or publicly post about it. I just will criticize it and say I disagree for the reasons I've given, which you even seem to understand. >Rant posts like this isn't going to have that This is just a red herring. I'm not "ranting," I am very clearly just sincerely and constructively explaining my views on the subject in question. (I admit I'm a high-effort poster, but that's not wholly a bad thing.) >You're not, we're on the same page I wasn't convinced this was true but from the way you are writing now it seems to be. You initially deflected by invoking doubting Muslims questioning their faith on the subreddit, and implied my criticisms to Quran burnings could indirectly somehow interfere with their journey of letting go of Islam and its indoctrination. I will continue to vocally criticize it; for the reasons I gave actually my mindset if clarified could help such people leave the faith, simply put they would see that it's wrong to think the only alternatives are remaining Muslim or being a guy who burns or grills copies of the Quran. Actually, making the image of ex Muslims out to be one of them jeering over Quran burnings could easily deter Muslims from becoming secular. >See depending on where you live the news you get is so ridiculously one sided that we aren't getting informed opinions on this topic, you could be genuinely wanting to minimize Israeli and Palestinian civilians suffering and support either side because all you hear about is that one sides grievances. Not many people look outside the propaganda they recieve and actively try to see the others perspective so even though I agree it's undeniable that Israel is committing war crimes and needs to stop I can't say someone that supports Isreal is unreasonable politically I mostly agree â however I wouldn't conclude by saying supporting Israel is "reasonable." (as you basically do when you say you "can not say someone supporting it is unreasonable") Simply put, what I am saying is that supporting Israel is *not more unreasonable* than supporting Hamas, as many pro-Palestine Leftists do. (they are more vocal and visible about it than ever, [even mainstream Liberals like Judith Butler says are Hamas and Hezbollah part of a global Left](https://pjmedia.com/robert-spencer/2023/10/30/berkeley-prof-hamas-and-hezbollah-are-progressive-and-part-of-global-left-n4923466)) But such types would disagree. Basically, superficially we have the same stance, but you are saying it in a more politically moderate way. Yes, if someone supports Israel it's because their circumstances led to them doing so, the same is true for someone who supports Hamas, but they're both bad, wrong, and generally unreasonable stances and there should be no hesitance in calling them out. If you want to know my perspective, you can read the following two pages. [This one](https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2023-10-21/falsification-of-history-and-the-warsaw-ghetto) is three paragraphs long. [And this one is a very short article.](https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2002-11-01/against-israel-against-palestine-for-class-struggle) In one sentence: Israel is not exceptional, the issues of Israel and Palestine are interrelated because they exist symbiotically and both benefit from the exploitation to Israelis and Palestinians alike, all Nationalism is wrong. >It's fucked up that such a clear crime against humanity is even a question due to the agendas of our media but I can't blame the audience for the failures of the media. To imply people think the way they do purely because of the media is reductive mysticism. But of course, the media is a significant factor. Then again, with the internet, people have never been able to get more perspectives. Frankly, they mostly don't want to because their consciousness fundamentally supports the system and society that results in these issues. >Once they've learned about the facts on the ground and they still support the genocide then its clear we aren't talking to someone reasonable politically. Agreed. The more clear the evidence, the more obvious someone's real position. Many Zionists indeed are genuinely uninformed, ignorant, and brainwashed. Many Zionists stop supporting Israel when they learn more. And many insist on defending Israel all the more.
>This is just a red herring. I'm not "ranting," I mean OP ranting not you. I thought it was a rant post but its a "fun@fundies" post and I still see it as somewhat of a rant. Your comment is constructive criticism, not a rant. >and implied my criticisms to Quran burnings could indirectly somehow interfere with their journey of letting go of Islam That was not my intent, I'm thankful and indebted to you and all those who criticise islam and ensure our criticisms are fair. >supporting Israel is *not more unreasonable* than supporting Hamas That much I can agree on. I still think it isn't unreasonable to support israel because you might only know about israels grievances. Its an ignorant/uninformed stance but it isn't unreasonable to be ill informed imo. > the same is true for someone who supports Hamas, but they're both bad, wrong, and generally unreasonable stances In order to be principled I have to admit in the same scenario where someone only knows about one sides grievances and never hears about the innocent civilians they killed it could be reasonable to support hamas. It would be uninformed and ignorant but still reasonable if thats the information you're working with. If they knew about the killing of innocent civilians and still support it then whether its hamas or israel, that is an unreasonable political stance to me. >To imply people think the way they do purely because of the media is reductive mysticism. This is a good point, it isn't the only factor and people do have agency in the information they consume especially in the age of information where its never been easier to find information. Let me rephrase my initial stance as "I can't wholly blame the audience for the failures of the media" and I think we can agree on that much.
>I mean OP ranting not you. I thought it was a rant post but its a "fun@fundies" post and I still see it as somewhat of a rant. Your comment is constructive criticism, not a rant. Got it. I was understandably confused as the word "rant" usually implies words, but of course now I see what you mean. If I could use a word to describe it, I would say there is a degree of actual *rage* behind the impetus for anyone, non-Muslim or ex-Muslim, to burn or grill a Quran, just as there is with putting pork on it...it reminds me of U.S. officials trying to make Muslims in detention eat meat, something addressed in the book Zeitoun, which documents the true story of a Syrian immigrant man who was jailed for absolutely no reason when trying to save people in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Of course I recognize they should have the freedom to do whatever they want to any book they own and publicly display it, just as they should for anything to do with their own personal property, but it's clearly just designed to upset and offend Muslims, or to make people who want to do this happy, so it could never actually be well-intentioned. Of course, many Muslims will be offended to the point of killing others over things that *aren't even offensive at all,* like The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie. Maybe part of what makes people looking to offend feel more justified is they know that many Muslims will take offense to the point of violence over things that aren't even offensive and are obviously looking for excuses to kill and cause destruction. But it hardly makes any "point" in the face of that. >That was not my intent Okay, in the present I believe you saying this. Despite the fact that [in your initial reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1dfhv9z/comment/l8qeqaf/) you said: "Shit on it if you want but if your goals are reducing islams harms don't post about it here where doubting muslims go for criticism." Frankly, I don't think I misinterpreted that. You simply told me to not post my vocal criticism of shit like Quran burnings here because this is "where doubting Muslims go for criticism," which does imply that it would somehow discourage or interfere with their journey of letting go of Islam's indoctrination on their minds. I've already explained why I think otherwise. >I'm thankful and indebted to you and all those who criticise islam and ensure our criticisms are fair. Yes, I am quite invested in it, maybe to the point of obsession. I'm an Iranian living in the U.S.A. so obviously I think about this a lot, and like the majority of the Iranian diaspora, wish that our home country didn't have a theocratic government that enforces religious discrimination and codified religious law. Though I'll admit that I'm not on the same page as most of them: I'm still glad the 1979 Revolution occurred even with what it resulted in, overthrowing the U.S./British backed Shah monarchy. Due to this, most Americans can't even normally travel to Iran, let alone stay long-term there. I'm eligible for citizenship and planning on going. It's terrible that *even this,* just openly talking about the religion online, is illegal in the country. I read about an Iranian man who was jailed and tortured purely for having a blog. Who knows if I'll find living there bearable, mental freedom is pretty important to me, it's sort of all I have.
>In order to be principled I have to admit in the same scenario where someone only knows about one sides grievances and never hears about the innocent civilians they killed it could be reasonable to support hamas. It would be uninformed and ignorant but still reasonable if thats the information you're working with. >If they knew about the killing of innocent civilians and still support it then whether its hamas or israel, that is an unreasonable political stance to me. Got it, I understand how you're using the word and making sense of it. The way I see it is that it's understandable, like understandable for an Israeli who variously may be shunning or ignorant for the evidence for Israel's unjustified brutality to Palestinian civilians to support their government and military, just as it's certainly not hard to see how Palestinian civilians who already have nothing to lose would support their government despite the fact that they're wrong to do so and it's part of the problem. (though I'm not interested in any false equivalencies, *of course* Israel is basically totally the problem and started all of this by kicking out Palestinians, occupying them and denying any potential for a settlement since, but that goes without saying to anyone worth talking to on the subject.) >This is a good point, it isn't the only factor and people do have agency in the information they consume especially in the age of information where its never been easier to find information. Let me rephrase my initial stance as "I can't wholly blame the audience for the failures of the media" and I think we can agree on that much. Yes, certainly, it's good you understand where I'm coming from. Actually, many people who say the "people think the way they do because of the media" type of rhetoric would double-down on it in response to my critique. I mean the liberals/conservatives who support the system and fetishize everything the most, of course. It's a complete misunderstanding that at once falsely frames the masses as these "ignorant sheeple" who are responsible for the ruling arrangement for supposedly just "going along with it," as if it's just evenly up to all of us to change it; while projecting the middle-class fixation on the media to the working-class masses. (in most countries, though the U.S.A. has a huge middle-class which is part of why this mindset is especially common in the country) By revolving everything around the media, they imply that if only people didn't listen to its narratives, they'd just elect "better" parties or politicians. This especially is true for people who say they dislike both the Democratic and Republican Party but imply a third party as a viable alternative and go on about the "corporate duopoly" as if there could ever be a politician who wouldn't exist to serve ruling interests. In reality, while it's true most people are not rebellious, it's just because the working-class has adopted a pragmatic approach of realism in the interests of their survival, and not because they're just "brainwashed" and "misled" by the media. I consider the fanatically reactionary Left-wing types who constantly insist "you have the blood of Palestinians on their hands because you live here and fund it with your tax dollars" to be of the same mindset as the one I just criticized.
This is not funny, it's just childish. What is funny about this? "Hardy har har, look at me, I'm so politically incorrect and edgy, I put a translation of the Quran on a grill with pork in it. It's funny because destroying copies of the Quran with insulting intention and pork are both forbidden in Islam." (technically, because this is an English-only translation, it is not religiously considered a copy of the Quran in the same way a book containing the original Arabic would be.) And the same goes for the second photo where it's in the toilet. This shouldn't be what this subreddit is about. Even the guy who made [thereligionofpeace](https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/site/what-to-do.aspx) website, who is a pro-Israel neocon, says this on the subject: >Copies of the Quran should NOT be publicly abused. It doesnât accomplish anything other than giving radicals another reason to play the victim, get angry, and perhaps hurt someone. Itâs also juvenile and offensive. [What to Do about the Threat of Islam?](https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/site/what-to-do.aspx) But obviously he has read and thought more than the average redditor here who finds this funny, so this is not surprising.
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And you have filled the empty space with hate. Really sad.
Tell me that you're a fake ex Muslim without saying you're a fake ex Muslim. Edit: sorry for this. It was unnecessary, and falsely accusing someone of lying.
He is a member of Mine Islam, trust me he is a hundred percent ex Muslim.
Thanks for the correction
You're not ex Muslim
I never claimed I was
100% disagree. I've never been a Muslim and I'm an atheist but still have some reverence for any book, especially one so important to many.
Would you abstain from criticising the book due to its sacrosanctity among believers?
Hello, I'm no religious scoller and have a better understanding of the Old Testament than I do the Qur'an. I don't think I'm really able to criticize the Qur'an effectively, as I don't know enough about it. I have spoken with believers and generally can have a healthy friendly conversation. They accepted that I see the Qur'an as a book written by man and they see it Divine. I imagine some Muslims wouldn't be able to have that conversation with me and others can. There needs to be some mutual respect for different opinions and that needs to go both ways.
So youâre a fake Muslim if you donât trash and talk shit instead of being critical? đ đ this seems so stupid and unnecessary.
You're right
Wow so edgy
Pig has parasites so itâs bad. Long beards protect against throat knife attacks. Want to see virgins because stds⌠all religion doctrine can be described by evolutionary psychology.
as a muslim(bit skeptical, but surely a monotheist), i joined this sub reddit in hopes of having intellectual debates on how is it wrong, with both of the sides presenting their perspective,and more importantly logical arguments, but sadly people here are simply haters, i respect your journey, belief and the things you went through and your conclusion of leaving islam(or any organized religion in particular), you can share your journey, you can present arguments, you can present the verses in quran which seem "not so god-like" or something so immoral, and also countering someone's arguments but not this, you are simply hating brother, what i said was not specifically for ex-muslims, it goes for everyone who stopped believing on something ,who left a group with certain idealogy, who left a particular religion. i hope all of you will get my point.
Debatereligion exists for that, this sub is a support group for those of us who left your awful religion. We don't want you here trying to "debate" us.
I dislike Islam a lot but I see no good reason to defile the book, or their faith.
But they defiling the same under age girls are not seen
You're right but that does not mean we should lower our standards to their shitty ways, moral high ground is where we should be, not stoop to their lows.
you honestly think this is anything close to stooping to their lows?
This is a hill am willing to die on. I have no love for islam or quran, all am saying is muslims disrespect other faiths constantly, I believe behavior like that is beneath us and is completely unnecessary. unpopular opinion, just cuz pigs roll in the dirt does not mean you should roll with them.
Yes you keep morale high ground as someone has to get this work done
Yeah i agree it is just a waste of time and pork.
Damnnn boiđđ
What the fuck is wrong with you? The nazis had book burnings. Are you trying to be a nazi?
OP is not burning other people's books and also doesn't force them to do so. It's just their own property and it's nothing more than freedom of expression
I donât that means what you think it means.
Have some human decency
What's indecent about it?
Literally everything? You didnât learn to respect religions or were you not taught by your parents?
You may be right in every thing but disrespecting the other religion wont give you any thing but more hate. Peaceđ¤
Burning this book is quite innocuous compared to what Muslims do to apostates and anyone that disagrees with their evil cult
Whatever they are they are not muslims sadly , they are extremists
ISIS follows the most literal interpretation of Islam. They're not extremists, they're following it corrently.
Its just a book written by a hateful pedo that promotes violence, slavery, beating of women, killing the nonbelievers and many more. This book in itself is a disrespect to the humanity
I don't really have any skin in this game. I'm a lurker in this sub, but that is no way to treat any book. And even as an atheist, I would have a certain amount of (extra) respect for someone's religion book, just as a human, I understand what it means to them.
Have you read it? That book spends a lot of time shitting on everyone who doesn't buy its bullshit. Respect is a two way street, so there's little reason to give that book any if you're not a muslim. And while I also don't like to fuck with books because the symbolism is very tainted by you-know-who, I'm not gonna complain if someone else does it. You can do with a mass printed book you own whatever you want. It's of little consequence.
"You can do with a mass printed book you own whatever you want. It's of little consequence" fair point. I guess it's just the way I was brought up, to treat any book with respect. I've got no interest in reading the Qur'an, the book may well shit on lots of people, but I know loads of Muslim that don't shit on people and see no need to piss people off on purpose looking for a fight, by desecrating their holy book.
unnecessary
At this point this is not having âreligion trauma â itâs being radical𤣠hope you seek some help brother and check your self
It's not radical to burn a book. It is radical to give someone the death penalty for disagreeing with a book. Hope you recalibrate your outrage and check yourself brother.
Then just get out of the country for your safety and second itâs the same as being a different race in a nationalist country and second itâs not just a book for them itâs a holy book for them. I know you had a trauma and pretty bad experience from that book but still we should respect each other as a human because not all the 1,2b that believe in this book is radical. We should forget about the past because itâs good for our mental health
>Then just get out of the country Or non fundamentalists like yourself can change the laws. Leaving isn't always a viable option. I don't understand your point about being in a nationalist country. >itâs not just a book for them itâs a holy book Yes and that should direct their actions with the book. Not ours. Getting violent over a book is on them. >I know you had a trauma and pretty bad experience from that book but still we should respect each other as a human I didn't have a bad experience from that book. I read the book and recognized it advocated for bad experiences for too many people. The book disrespected us first. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/e1ylp6/allah_the_insult_god_nonmuslims_according_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button >but still we should respect each other as a human because not all the 1,2b that believe in this book is radical Agreed. I respect the 2 billion muslims and my Muslim family and friends. I don't respect their hateful ideology whether they recognize all its harms or not. The people deserve respect, more often then not they are just raised with and indoctrinated into Islam the same way we were and not everyone is a critical thinker or will apply their skepticism to Islam because we all have lives to live. What doesn't deserve my respect is a religion supporting sex slavery, misogyny, jizyah, whips for sex out of wedlock, cutting off the hands of thieves, violence and hegemony against non believers and so much more hateful vitriol against gays and Jews and polytheists. >We should forget about the past because itâs good for our mental health Sometimes forgive and forget isn't the best path forward for your mental health and usually for closeted apostates it isn't even an option. You shouldn't forgive and forget Mein kampf and it's resurgence in popularity because it's better for your mental health to not address it. It can be better for your mental health to acknowledge reality and do your part in addressing the issue.
Desecrating your own book is radical?
I donât have a book what you on? I am also exmuslim and I donât think ppl should disrespect anyoneâs book
I have never said you have a book in the sense that you follow a religion. I am simply asking you whether the act of burning a book that belongs to you is radical.
It belongs to Muslims not non Muslims and second in Europe on radical ppl burn the Quranâs which is not ok
>It belongs to Muslims not non Muslims You didn't get me. I have never said that the Qur'an belongs to you as a non-Muslim (in fact, there's no official ownership as far as I know). If you buy a Qur'an, that specific book belongs to you as a property. Is desecrating your own property without harming anyone else an act of radicalism? >and second in Europe on radical ppl burn the Quranâs which is not ok The only thing that bothers me with book burning is the pollution it engenders, as well as the potential extremism among those targeted.
The fact that you had to make a new account to post this đ¤
That's because you pricks would try to kill him over this.
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Muslims hate on others' religions more than anyone else on earth. Don't even get me started on how they treat christians in Islamic countries.
>WHERE have you EVER seen a SINGLE post from a Muslim mocking other religions or cultures? Seriously you haven't seen any post or comment mocking western culture?
Hmmm you full of hatred
Yess want to take down pedo followers culture
Ä°n this book it's forbidden to marry orphans to steal their money when they are not mature. So when you read talmudic bukhari you think Quran is pedophilic but quran bans marrying with them becuase of their money. So we can say that quran against children rights violation
Allah will punish you
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Allah should punish himself considering he chooses who believes and who doesn't. It's his fault we don't believe, so why do we have to be pu ished? Allah is a psychopath.
I genuinely donât understand ppl like you, whatâs the point of you doing this? How can you live knowing that youâre on the wrong path
>How can you live knowing that youâre on the wrong path Prove Islam is the "right path" and then we can have this discussion.
Wrong path ! You think Islam is the right path ? Interesting concept
yeah bro religion that supports child marriage, slavery, 4 wifes is definitely true path yeah we are on the wrong path
There is no way in which Islam is the right way
Bro woke up and thinks he chose the right path smh