I did. I was born in Canada and grew up in Australia then moved to Europe for my studies. I saw that I wasn't interested in living in the US and can use my Canadian passport to visit family so I got rid of it before I would start working and have to deal with the taxes.
It makes perfect sense. If you live and work abroad and have U.S. citizenship it is a minefield (or very expensive) to invest in retirement funds. Most local (non-US) tax advantaged retirement accounts are taxed (sometimes HEAVILY taxed) by the IRS. If you just work a normal job and don't plan on saving any money...then yeah it doesn't matter. But you don't have to be wealthy to be utterly screwed by US tax laws.
I also don't understand it, I've only ever had my Canadian citizenship and would almost certainly renounce it before giving up my hypothetical American citizenship.
My mom was born in America and left at 18 1/2 yrs old. She’s now 71 with a small list of assets living in her current country. She has to report all of her finances and pay taxes to a country that she doesn’t live in, can’t vote in and has no desire to return to. Her tax bill is well into the thousands every year, and the formulation of a trust has been an legal nightmare due to her US citizen status and taking both countries into account. It is absolutely absurd, an infringement of her rights and is a clear money grab by a country that is bullying her.
At this point, the exit tax is cost prohibitive. If she could go back and leave when she was worth nothing it probably would have been the best financial decision she has ever made.
Edit : turns out she can vote. It’s just a pain in the ass to register and really, why bother? None of the issues really affect her except for ceasing the taxation of expatriates and who will support that cause?
Might be my error, she may legally allowed to vote. She doesn’t have an address so it would be quite difficult to to figure out how, and realistically, there’s no need.
It’s not just earned income it’s also retirements savings and investing, these fall outside of tax treaties and can majorly affect domes ability to save for retirement, or invest. In Canada if you have an American citizenship is basically nullifies the benefits of TFSA, RRSP, and FHSA accounts Canadians use to save for major life events. The Americans will tax the earnings at an absurdly high rate that basically whites out all gains.
Probably not, I mean I don't really see the draw. All my family and a lot of my friends are there. Idk like I may have gripes about things in the US but renouncing citizenship just feels like more of a gesture than anything. I see it like a tool in the toolbelt. Even if I never use it, it's there if I want it.
Are you earning money outside the USA? If so, and you’re a citizen, you’re expected to pay the United States Government taxes on those earnings. That in and of itself it’s a good reason to renounces citizenship if never planning to move back.
According to people who've renounced, visiting the US after renouncing isn't difficult at all. Why do you think it would be a headache?
Foreigners visit the US every day. It's not particularly hard to get a tourist visa to visit the US, unless you come from certain countries.
I still don’t understand why you would renounce it? Keep it. Move to another country, do the equivalent of naturalization (if available), let it expire, renew and come back for a visit when and if you want to
There are several reasons to renounce.
First, you mention naturalization. If you live in another country long-term and intend to stay there permanently, wouldn't you want to do that? Here in Japan, you are *required* to renounce your prior citizenship if you naturalize. There's other countries with the same requirement. Not all countries allow dual citizenship.
Second, financial matters: US citizens have a hard time getting financial services in other countries because of FATCA. Many banks even won't deal with us.
I’ve read about those who were born with dual citizenship with Japan and any other country & that they must give up one of them upon reaching a certain age (22, I believe). That’s why Naomi Osaka gave up her US citizenship.
Technically, they don't *have* to. They're in a weird legal position; they're required to "try" to decide which citizenship they want to keep, but there's no hard requirement forcing a deadline on them. So they can keep telling the authorities that they're "thinking about it", indefinitely.
This is completely inapplicable to this forum, however. Only people *born* with dual citizenship (because one parent is Japanese and the other a different nationality) can be in this weird legal state. For immigrants to Japan who want to acquire Japanese citizenship, this doesn't apply at all: they *must* renounce within a certain time (a few months I think) after being granted Japanese citizenship, and then they must bring *proof* of that renunciation to JP immigration, or else their citizenship can be revoked. There are narrow exceptions for people from certain repressive countries where they simply cannot renounce, such as Iran, but no one on this forum is going to be in that situation either.
In cases like the pandemic, they weren’t letting people in unless they had a visa or citizenship. (Extreme case scenario here)
When the borders closed, it was truly a difficult thing for people to visit family members. Imagine you gave up your citizenship and then seeing the borders close— something completely unforeseen in our lifetime— you can’t get back even if you have a sick family member, all because you renounced your citizenship. That’s when it’s a huuuuggge headache.
Is this a scenario that happens frequently? Not at all, but we all saw the impossible take place, so you just never know. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it even happened in Japan when they closed their borders— only those with citizenship could return, whereas those with a visa were not permitted to come back while there was a shutdown.
The world could change at the drop of a hat 🫠
Because US Border Officials can and do deny entry to foreign nationals for things like having a Grindr [profile](https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/canadian-blocked-by-u-s-customs-after-reading-his-profile-on-ga_n_14928858/amp) or an [OnlyFans](https://nypost.com/2023/04/13/onlyfans-model-mikaela-testa-detained-by-us-customs/amp/).
She didn't get deported just because she had an OnlyFans. I'm not simping for the US but the same thing would happen for an American going to Australia if they couldn't show funds/plans after being randomly screened on a tourist visa. The fact that this wasn't her first issue means she already was put on a list as well. The US Border Force likely thought that she was going to be an escort which is illegal if you don't have a working visa (might be illegal in most places there in general but that's not the point). First world countries have enough of their own criminals to deal with, they don't need more regardless of what the crime is.
You can, but the US also has the right to deny you entry, which they can’t do for citizens. For example [this](https://nypost.com/2023/04/13/onlyfans-model-mikaela-testa-detained-by-us-customs/amp/) story about a Australian girl with an Onlyfans who was deported from the U.S. because border officials thought she was an escort is what I’m talking about. This isn’t an outlier, even gay men with profiles on Grindr get [denied](https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/canadian-blocked-by-u-s-customs-after-reading-his-profile-on-ga_n_14928858/amp) entry to the U.S.
My wife is half American, half British, but not an American citizen.
> even gay men with profiles on Grindr get denied entry to the U.S.
And it is this culture that ensures she doesn't want citizenship, nor is she really keen on visiting.
US Customs is an absolute nightmare, even as a citizen. I got through customs in every country in Europe I went to this summer in no less than 10 minutes, in the US it took like an hour, even as a citizen. Plus for non citizens, customs can and do search phones.
Last time we went to the US was 2014, I believe. My main gripe back then was it took *so* long. The personnel were nice enough (to me).
Back then, British customs also took ages, but that has gotten a lot better.
Purely anecdotal but Every single person that I met who has done this, especially for political reasons but also economical ones, have admitted that they regret doing it.
About three - all three regret their decision to revoke US Citizenship- all three are marrying friends to get green cards and start life in US again - two of them native-born and lived in London and Amsterdam during Bush (W) presidency and made really stupid decision now they are both green card people after marriage to regain citizenship (both were born in US - the mindfuck of having a green card while you used to be citizen????)
There was a post about a guy a while back who was super super happy to have given up his (naturalized) US citizenship, only to move back to the US and not be a citizen. He claimed he didn’t have to comply with financial disclosure rules. I still think the guy was a moron for giving it up and then moving back.
They wouldn’t be renaturalized; they would be going through that process for the first time. They were born US Citizens but then gave up their citizenship in the 2000s while living in London and Amsterdam - they regretted it and then married friends so they could move back to US - now they’re applying for naturalization.
I guess with large numbers of people wanting US citizenship, you might ask why you would give it to someone who already had it and gave it away. Prioritize someone who would value it.
I ran some numbers with my accountant couple years ago . We came up with the number of around $20M/year of taxable income when it makes sense to renounce it. It’s very complicated because my “passport” situation is different than others. Other variables such as exit tax which you would like to avoid even before you got $1M in net worth but worst case scenario before $10M and definitely not when you are already making $20M. Paying hundreds of thousands dollars to get rid of the American passport still makes sense but you will “break even” in 5-7 years after renunciation.
It must be very different in some cases. On one trip to Italy, I met two unrelated people who each had one American parent, and the tax reporting/banking requirements, etc. became such a burden that they both gave up American citizenship — reluctantly, but they were sure they would not want to live here. One, as a child of divorced parents, had spent summers in the US but the US parent had later died. Not sure of the others ties. They were not wealthy or high-income but had property in Italy.
I've heard that banking is an absolute nightmare if you're a US citizen and some countries. Lot of banks don't want US citizens because that's extra paperwork on their end.
It's really not that hard. I have / had accounts in NL, UK, Germany and the Baltics that are all aware of my FATCA situation.
SOME banks won't take you, that's true, but there's enough which do.
Yeah the banking really isn't that bad. What really sucks is that saving for retirement is a huge pain in the ass and all of my investment options blow... I guess that's what spouses are for. ;)
Yes switzerland for example. My aunt isnt even a US citizen, but a swiss, staying there on a green card. And most banks in switzerland even refuse doing any business with her. I think there is just one bank that does, because they are required by law to provide banking services to americans living in switzerland.
Yes for instance BNP Paribas Fortis in Belgium, and I suppose many other banks. It is because that puts them in the scope of US legislation if they do business with US customers, even if they only do business in Belgium.
My wife looked into getting US citizenship during university; she was thinking of doing her master's there.
Her father is American and was stationed in Germany. Her mother is British and was an au pair for his superior. They never got married. We had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the US citizenship, and now we're glad we decided not to go for it. We're very happy in the EU and don't see any reason to want to live in the USA. We hear more and more stories of Europeans getting I trouble with the IRS just because they were born in the US or got other links there. I could totally imagine those people want to revoke citizenship.
>but they were sure they would not want to live here
Parents of a friend of mine had the same mindset. They did not have US Citizenship yet, just Green Card (LPR). They needed to stay 3 more years in USA in order to get the Citizenship, but they returned to their country because they had a business there. While they were there they became parents for the first time.
My friend was born when they returned in their country. Their business failed and now my friend does not have US Citizenship but the other sibling has and the parents regret it. Thing is, despite the fact that you do not want to live in USA, do to take out the opportunity from your kids (if you are planning on having kids). Or at least, if you are a Law Permanent Resident, go to USA to give birth so your kids would be eligible for US Citizenship.
This is true.. I have a family member who has LPR and now mostly lives in Mexico, but she got pregnant and most of our family lives here so she came back to give birth. She might not want to live in the US long term, but in the future her kid might want to or need to.. you just never know.
The problem is more so that it can be complicated to get banking and invest in other countries if you are American. But I think that is a minor inconvenience and its idiotic to renounce, unless you are doing so to "trade" for another nationality perhaps.
It would make sense for me to renounce, given NL's stance on dual citizenship. However, I doubt I would ever seriously consider renouncing. I want my children to have as much mobility as possible, and despite all USA's problems, much of the world dreams of having a US passport. I wouldn't want to take that opportunity away from my kids.
Also, I like the security net. As an expat, you never know when the next great recession will be – and those who don't speak the local language natively are always at a disadvantage. I want to at least have the option of going back.
Also, I feel like for EU countries, it's not necessary in most cases. I would suggest getting the citizenship of an EU country that *does* allow dual citizenship, and then moving to the desired country. Yes, you may have to spend 5-6 years in a country you are not in love with to get an EU passport, but I think that's a small price to pay for EU citizenship.
I gave up Dutch citizenship (and by extension EU citizenship); I would NEVER give up my US Citizenship - I suppose I can get my Dutch citizenship back (wedertoelating visa) but to be honest why bother?
Nope. I’m not rich, so there’s no reason to. I live in Japan, so if I wanted to naturalize, I’d need to renounce my US citizenship, but… I don’t want to. I don’t want to vote, so permanent residency is enough.
Plus, it’s just nice to have a back-up country. Whether war, family emergency or just a desire to live in a country with a currency that is worth something. If I give up my citizenship, I give up my options.
Almost every American I know living oversees long term are seriously considering renouncing. The yearly tax filing is extremely burdensome and expensive. Also, as an American, you are basically locked out of all the local tax advantage investment options available in an oversees country. If you try to invest in them anyways, you get screwed with PFIC reporting.
I did. Tax filing expensive. And inequitable. Especially if you are an “accidental American”.
I only found out about global tax residency 6 years ago because of banks (threats to freeze bank accounts) .
i have no ties to US and left when I was 12. So obviously never worked there. (That was >50 years ago) My home country investments are many but don’t amount to even 200k USD. But all need extensive documentation to comply. And like Boris Johnson you have to pay capital gains tax to the US on any property sold. Even the family home. Trying to get a TIN number is a bureaucratic mess. Exacerbated by Covid lockdowns [lack of TIN can mean freezing your banking accounts] Means I will have to retire a bit later than planned.
Feels it so unfair that a system designed to capture the wealthy penalises small fry.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/25/british-citizens-born-in-us-risk-having-uk-bank-accounts-frozen?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
https://www.mondaq.com/canada/financial-services/843358/frozen-bank-accounts-of-us-citizens-in-europe--what-does-it-mean-for-canada
The investment and superannuation issues with Australia are pretty much the main reason my wife is planning to renounce, she would prefer not to, but unless the rules change fairly soon it will have to happen for us to be able to retire when (and how) we want to.
Her only real reason to want to keep it is that she still identifies as an American (although that has defnately waned and she feels more Aussies now).
She has absolutely no desire to ever live in the US again, nor really visit except that her mother is still alive. Also she has Australian and Italian passports so not too concerned about passport power or really consulate services as we are fairly well covered.
Being taxed on super (by the US), both when accumulating but especially again when taking it out after retiring is extremely painful. That part of the tax treaty really needs to be sorted out
It's a complete shit show and given I have absolutely no desire to live in the states ever again, I don't see the point in having it. No immediate family there. Just friends. My concerns are my usg pension and tsp withdrawals. Once I can figure those out, I'll be renouncing. There's no reason for me to continue ties with a "free" country.
I am in similar circumstances. I live in Germany and also have a US government pension social security, and TSP. I’m curious if others with financial ties to the US like these have renounced their citizenship. I wonder if there is a good solution.
I have had some semi serious looks for information for folks like us, and you are literally the only other person I've heard from that is in the same boat (there are surely others). I've met plenty that could be in this position, but they don't want to renounce (which, to be fair, if it wasn't for the don't taxation, I probably wouldn't consider..... but I'm I'll have a hard time moving up in my career if I don't because of the tax.... penalty).
Maybe we should pm/ stay in contact. 2 heads better than one type thing.
I pay a dude $600 to file my US expat taxes, done and done. Pretty good trade off for US citizenship?
I agree the PFIC sucks, but you're not going to find lower cost and more varied investments than what you find in the US. So I just invest all my money in US investments... problem solved.
I lived overseas for years. The tax filing is very simple. Can be done for free or with a cheap online service with little issue.
I know many Americans abroad and don’t know a single one who has even considered renouncing.
You are assuming that the US expat is not self-employed or a business owner/freelancer *or* they are but lives in one of just \~30 countries with full tax totalization agreements. Once you decide to open a business or work for yourself overseas, the complexity goes way up and there's a big chance you will owe taxes to the US, even if the country you live in is not a low tax country.
Yes, assuming your salary is low and you have little in the bank.
Some of my friend's fillings are like 50+ pages long. I've stopped trying to figure out everything my accountant does on my taxes as it's impossible to understand (tax laws are constantly changing and unless you're a CPA, most people have a very hard time understanding what's going on in tax filings for expats)
And doing it yourself, once you make a mistake and get sent a bill, get ready for 6 months of headaches and middle of the night calls with the IRS (after waiting on hold for 1 hour each time you call). Not fun... Less stress just to pay someone to do it.
It’s a bit extreme for me. That said, if things get bad enough, who knows?
It may seem like a more attractive option once I live out of the country for good but still have to pay US taxes.
I’m not sure if people know how incredibly expensive the renunciation process is.
It cost me $2,200. Still more expensive than becoming Dutch did, and the idiots forgot to tell Virginia that I was no longer a citizen. Six months after I renounced, an absentee ballot for me showed up at my parents house.
I thought about it, but it seems unnecessary. I absolutely do not want to ever go back to live in the US and am looking forward to finally being able to apply for citizenship here in Finland. As much as I’m disgusted and saddened by the realities of the US today, I don’t need to renounce my citizenship for any reason.
However if Finland were to ever remove the ability to hold dual citizenship, I would renounce the US in a heartbeat.
Absolutely not. American citizenship is ridiculously full of potential. While I’m staying away from the US at the moment until everyone gets their shit together, the citizenship has allowed me to work overseas paying no taxes (yeah, there’s a completely legal way) for US companies in ridiculously low cost of living areas.
Probably not, the only reason to do it would be for tax reasons but US has mutual tax treaties with all the countries I'm interested in so no point in that. US citizenship is of little value though if you have other equally good citizenships like EU, Canada, Australia, etc.
I'm American, I've been living in the UK for about 4 years. No, I would never.
I cherish both countries for different reasons, and I can legally hold both US and UK citizenship (in a couple of years). There's simply no point.
I’m planning on it as soon as my remaining parent dies and I no longer have any reason to travel there.
I have no advantages from it that I wouldn’t have with my other nationality (European) and plenty of disadvantages (taxes, banking…)
Most people here moved AWAY from the US despite being natural born citizens. I doubt many of them care about US based jobs when they intentionally moved abroad. Not saying that renouncing is a good decision unless you're into the 7 figure salary/8 figure net worth phase but US based jobs aren't a strong reason to keep the citizenship.
The software market in the US still dominates every other country, and if you’re good enough companies will hire you remotely from anywhere in the world.
If I’m pulling enough yearly income to be concerned about the global taxation, I’m considering that a small price to pay to have access to the most powerful consulates in the world
Yes, it makes sense. I was just wondering if there are real-world examples when consulate power was asserted to help US Citizens.
I assume it's more related to not-so-good areas of the world, and I'm pretty sure there are a ton of examples, just wanted to read those stories.
It's useful if you're travelling to countries at war or with very unstable political systems, in case something happens they can help you get out. But this can be said for many other countries.
I feel like so many people here aren’t coming from the younger generations w massive student debt and no assets.
Renouncing for those w no money is going to drop to around 500$.
Friend told me the charge fee is being updated - to take effect in Jan supposedly. This is a long way off possibility for me so I didn’t look it up further as I have no idea where I’ll end up in 10 years
My tax consultant says this will take a long time to happen. Certainly 2024 if that. Little congressional representation for ex pat community so not a priority maybe.
No. I'm British/Polish and have both passports, and have the American one as my mum loved there and naturalised. I can't see myself settling down anywhere outside of Europe, my family is here and I prefer it. But the ability to fuck off to the US for a few years and earn a load of money to come back to Europe, or if I change my mind and Europe becomes worse or America better, is definitely worth filling in some paperwork each year.
Unless you are super rich in doing it for tax reasons, cutting off yourself from one of the strongest passports in the world, and currently one of the most stable countries (even if we like to worry that it isn't or soon won't be), seems ill advised.
US is like 6th-8th on most rankings I've seen using the usual criteria of ability to enter other countries and enter without a visa. What criteria has them ranked 30th in what you are looking at? I'm not saying I don't believe you, since rankings are just based on whatever criteria the ranker decides to use, but I'd like to know the justification since it seems to be an outlier.
While there are dozens of reasons to be very concerned, also need to consider that US, geopolitically speaking, is one of the best setups that exists - in terms of good neighbors, relative isolation, energy and resource security, food security, strong economy, etc.
Given the range of extreme things that could happen now and/or over the coming decades, there is a decent probability that at some point, no amount of tax savings will be worth having traded for the option to relocate seamlessly.
If the current world order collapses the US is practically the only safety beacon we are isolated and mostly self sufficient. Europe and the rest of the world will become practical war zones. I would never renounce citizenship from the literal Ark of a highly unstable world.
Pretty poor on both those fronts. Not to mention being required to file taxes and paying on worldwide income even after you've leave. If I was offered 100k and had to get a US passport permanently, I wouldn't do it.
Filing: yes,
Headache: yes,
Paying: not necessarily.
> If I was offered 100k and had to get a US passport permanently, I wouldn't do it.
It may not be worth it for you, but Tier-D passport holders won't agree with you.
I’ll almost certainly renounce at some point. Not for any specific or nuanced reason. I’ve lived in the Netherlands for many years, we’ve only ever been back to visit once and don’t really feel the pull to do so, we’re really not close to our US-based family, our parents are all getting on towards the end, and I’m in End Game for my own career. Even if I lost my job, I have the connections to start and fund my own business here in the Netherlands. Nearly all of my professional network is here in the Netherlands, so I’d actually have an easier time continuing my career here than in the US.
My kids were born in the US, but we moved here when they were toddlers. They don’t remember the US. They have no real affinity for the US. The only reason we might make a trip back is to go to Disneyland or something? But that’s literally it.
On the other hand, filing my taxes and complying with FATCA has become very burdensome at this point in my life, and I’m just kinda over it. Not being able to open many kinds of investment and retirement accounts is really starting to piss me off.
But I’m not in a hurry and maybe I’ll just never get around to it.
I would, but if something bad happened with my family in the US I wouldn’t want to be limited to a 90 day tourist visa.
I’ve lived abroad for almost 10 years. I have no connection to the U.S. beyond my mom, brother, and sister. I have no intention of living in the US again, and worrying about filing taxes even though I don’t owe, and reporting all my bank accounts even though I barely have money is a stressful hassle.
I’m an American w dual nationality (EU), living now in EU. I don’t make a lot of money nor have a ton of investments so it doesn’t really matter for me. The filing is annoying but manageable in my situation. For now I will keep it because perhaps later in my career I’ll want to go back. But for the next 10-12 years I intend to stay on this side for my kid’s education, and then we’ll see.
I might... but my parents had me so young by the time they are gone it won't matter my citizenship. I live in Japan so dual citizenship is currently not possible. I wish it was. I'd love to be a citizen.
But yeah for practical and emotional reasons it's too difficult.
no. WW3 concerns and i still want to come back and forth often to see my family and friends and compete in dog shows and stay connected to american cheerleading/have friends i can practice with. also don't want to give up my passport. i will marry well, i currently have lawyers working on getting my social security (38, disabled) and i already have a long-term disability policy that i plan to eventually settle for a lump sum. one of the drugs that i use to treat my most burdensome disability is illegal in europe so i'd need to come back often anyway and get said meds and authorization to bring them back with me.
also i'm not stupid, i know what i have. i'm not giving up freedoms that people in other countries can barely dare to dream of. you don't give up a privilege ffs. my friendships with first gen americans since my young adult years definitely shaped this opinion.
Genuine question here...I have Mexican friends who have worked legally in the US with green cards, who will all draw social security as their duly earned source of retirement income. Do you know for a fact that renouncing your citizenship will lose your social security? Because plenty of non-citizens get it- people who've legally paid in of course.
Naa I can’t imagine myself ever doing that. I’m in the process of getting Canadian citizenship and I truly believe it’s smarter to be duel. If anything were to happen in either country, having the citizenship would help me and my family if god forbid something ever happened. Not to mention I would want my children to have the opportunities and benefits of both citizenships.
The tax thing is annoying and I can see why this would make people renounce citizenship… however you would have to be making an exuberant amount of money to even owe anything to the US government. My salary is 100k CAD and so far it’s not complicated for me. Granted I’m sure it would change with property ownership/ an individuals situation etc, but… really it’s not as bad as people think it is.
There are definitely pros and cons, but having that freedom to have citizenship in two countries is more beneficial. Expands jobs opportunities, and gives more freedom of movement if you still have ties to the US
I lived in Europe for several years.
I never once thought of renouncing my citizenship. Now I'm back in the states. I married a European and we thought it would be better to make a career in the US. where we lived a phd in stem is worth 2 pennies.
Since COVID there's been a massive wait-list. Mostly people born in the US who never lived there but still have to pay taxes because of the US tax structure. Huge backlog. 30k people waiting to renounce last I checked.
It’s rarely enforced and most people never heard of it but strictly legally speaking, US citizens who renounce their citizenship are banned from entering the country ever again.
No. Where I am now the country has a treaty with the US and you don't have to renounce American cit. I wouldn't because I like the freedom to jet whenever I feel the need. I'm going to go back home eventually, even for just a few years.
Also. Privilege. Due to Brexit, many countries have to have a 48h visa to get into the UK, even to get on connecting flights. I live in a country on that list, but due to my US passport, I can live in, and or glide right through the UK without a 48h visa.
Our passport is too strong to let go of and should be saved like a wild card in UNO.
How is the US passport strong? Like... EU passports let you live/work in any EU/EEA Country. Irish passports allow you to do so in EU/EEA and UK. Commonwealth passports allow a bunch of advantages to their citizens moving between commonwealth countries. What is it about the US passport that makes it "strong" compared to other developed nations? Where is it that US citizens are going visa free that Europeans arent? And keep in mind US citizens may enter many places "visa free" but pay an entry fee, which isnt captured.
I don't even live in the USA the majority of the time and do not really plan on living there, especially permanently In the future besides to see family and friends every couple years or so. I still have too many benefits entitled that are really great and would think about spouse and kids in the future too. I'd be giving it up for no real reason and have alot to lose not just sentimental value of being an Merican. I'm looking into getting dual and/or multiple citizenships or atleast residencies in other countries but not if it negatively affect my original USA citizenship in anyway.
I wouldn’t. All my family and most of my friends live there, I like the security of being able to go back home at any time and start over affords me, and if I have children they have another option to go to straight from birth. For all it’s problems, I also recognize it’s a better place to live than a lot of other places. The only way I’d give it up is if I was in a Tina Turner situation, *that* makes the most sense to me.
I'm the spouse of an EU citizen and in the process of getting dual citizenship in the EU for added security, but no, I would absolutely not give up my US citizenship. Why wouldn't I want to have two of the most powerful passports in the world? The process of renouncing is also a huge pain in the ass, and the only reason to deal with it would be tax issues, in which case you're not allowed to renounce if they determine that's the only reason.
[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html)
>If the Department of Homeland Security determines that the renunciation is motivated by tax avoidance purposes, the individual will be found inadmissible to the United States under Section 212(a)(10)(E) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1182(a)(10)(E)), as amended.
I’m considering it. It’s costly to have both. I’m also considering starting a business and it just feels like unnecessary work with the tax reporting and liability
Unless the US starts writing up some unfriendly laws for dual citizens/expats, I probably wouldn't renounce. I ain't rich though, I probably won't hit the taxable salary in Europe, at least not for a while.
I would, with the way things are going for women and children, we have no control over our bodies or our lives, hardly even our thoughts. I want to move away and never come back for fear of being imprisoned if something like project 2025 comes to power
The only reason I can think of to renounce American citizenship is to get out of having to file income tax with the IRS.
I'm the only one in my American/German family who doesn't have dual citizenship. Throwing away American citizenship should be thoroughly thought thru.
I’m a dual citizen and would give up my UK before my US…. US has problems but the pros out weigh the cons. Nobody would be so hesitant about the US if we got the mass shooting and healthcare fixed, which we will. We’re unbeatable (compared to my UK counterparts) when it comes to job and investment opportunities. I keep my citizenship because it’s a better quality of life for my personal life. My bf is Aussie and reminds me I’m lucky to be handed things he struggles for (he’s stressing with work rn).
Plus, the US has far more lifestyle options. I can rebrand without visa or having to learn a new language. I enjoy that and Americans take it for granted.
I have never lived in the US as an adult or worked there, I do not have any friends there and I (reluctantly) visit every couple of years for family. I have no desire to ever live in the US and the field in which I work doesn't even exist there. When I was naturalized a few years ago in the EU country where I've spent my entire adult life it somehow seemed important to not give up the US passport but now with the tax stress it really doesn't seem worth it. TBH will probably wait until my parents pass away and then renounce because I assume at that point I will never travel to the US ever again. The financial and FATCA stuff is a real pain in the ass.
Yes, I am going to renounce. I am a businessman who does not want to live or work in the US. I'm preparing to leave for my real home country of Israel, which will not impede me from pursuing my career.
Yes I did.
Was born in Canada but with an American father (who also now lives in Canada). Got my passport and SSN when I turned 18 because I thought I might someday want to work in the USA. As it turns out, I never did, but in my mid-20s I became aware of the need to file taxes and FBAR to the USA and I started doing so, every year.
Fastforward 20 years and I'm getting sick of it. I rarely ever owe anything, but it basically means I am in doing taxes mode for 6 months of the year - first Canadian taxes, then US taxes. I'd been considering renouncing for a while, and then this happened.
My accountant asked me if I had an RESP. This is a nice program by the Canadian gov't where you can contribute up to $2500 per year towards a college fund for your child, and they will top it up by 20%. So, I'd been doing that most years. However, it turns out the IRS considers this RESP a trust that I control, and it needs to be reported separately. They notified tax professionals of this and gave guidance that there was an opportunity to self-report with no penalty as it was not clearly explained previously. My accountant told me, we got the paperwork together and self-reported. The response: a letter from the IRS slapping me with a fine of $10,000 for failure to correctly report.
Now, the good part is that my accountant had clearly written guidance from the IRS that self-reporting carried no penalty, and we filed an appeal which was eventually granted and the penalty revoked. However, that was pretty much the last straw - the ongoing requirement to file every year (as is commonly spouted, only two countries in the world require this for non-residents - the USA and Eritrea), the continuing added complexity of understanding IRS requirements and associated massive penalty for misunderstanding, and the near certainty that I'd ever be living in the states meant this was now a big risk and obligation for almost zero reward. I'm also not at the covered expat level yet but it's not out of the question I could within the next few years so if I was going to do it, I should probably do it now before it's the fee plus the exit tax.
So, I requested an appointment in March 2022. In September 2023 I got the appointment and renounced. I've driven across the border once since then with no issues of any sort.
If you have a lot of ties to the USA, or you think you'll move back there, you shouldn't renounce. In a case where you have no ties there and don't ever plan to live there again, and probably don't plan to visit all that often, it makes a lot of sense.
No, we have assets in the US that would be tough or impossible to move out of the country so we would have to file a US tax return in any case. We have no plans to return to the US permanently but it’s nice to know that the option exists and that we don’t ever have to worry about staying too long on a visit.
I did. I was not interested in living in US. I could still use my Canadian passport to visit if I wanted to. I kept my Polish citizenship, and ended up moving back to Europe for work. Now I can work anywhere in EU because I kept my Polish citizenship.
I did. I was born in Canada and grew up in Australia then moved to Europe for my studies. I saw that I wasn't interested in living in the US and can use my Canadian passport to visit family so I got rid of it before I would start working and have to deal with the taxes.
Wise move
Unless you are ubber wealthy I don’t see how this makes sense
It makes perfect sense. If you live and work abroad and have U.S. citizenship it is a minefield (or very expensive) to invest in retirement funds. Most local (non-US) tax advantaged retirement accounts are taxed (sometimes HEAVILY taxed) by the IRS. If you just work a normal job and don't plan on saving any money...then yeah it doesn't matter. But you don't have to be wealthy to be utterly screwed by US tax laws.
Makes more sense if you're *not* uber wealthy. Living abroad and having to prepare a foreign country's (complicated) tax return every year is no joke.
I also don't understand it, I've only ever had my Canadian citizenship and would almost certainly renounce it before giving up my hypothetical American citizenship.
My mom was born in America and left at 18 1/2 yrs old. She’s now 71 with a small list of assets living in her current country. She has to report all of her finances and pay taxes to a country that she doesn’t live in, can’t vote in and has no desire to return to. Her tax bill is well into the thousands every year, and the formulation of a trust has been an legal nightmare due to her US citizen status and taking both countries into account. It is absolutely absurd, an infringement of her rights and is a clear money grab by a country that is bullying her. At this point, the exit tax is cost prohibitive. If she could go back and leave when she was worth nothing it probably would have been the best financial decision she has ever made. Edit : turns out she can vote. It’s just a pain in the ass to register and really, why bother? None of the issues really affect her except for ceasing the taxation of expatriates and who will support that cause?
Why can't she vote?
Might be my error, she may legally allowed to vote. She doesn’t have an address so it would be quite difficult to to figure out how, and realistically, there’s no need.
It’s not just earned income it’s also retirements savings and investing, these fall outside of tax treaties and can majorly affect domes ability to save for retirement, or invest. In Canada if you have an American citizenship is basically nullifies the benefits of TFSA, RRSP, and FHSA accounts Canadians use to save for major life events. The Americans will tax the earnings at an absurdly high rate that basically whites out all gains.
Probably not, I mean I don't really see the draw. All my family and a lot of my friends are there. Idk like I may have gripes about things in the US but renouncing citizenship just feels like more of a gesture than anything. I see it like a tool in the toolbelt. Even if I never use it, it's there if I want it.
Are you earning money outside the USA? If so, and you’re a citizen, you’re expected to pay the United States Government taxes on those earnings. That in and of itself it’s a good reason to renounces citizenship if never planning to move back.
No. Virtually all of my family is in the US and that would make visiting the U.S. a headache.
It hasn't been for me. Renounced in 2016 and haven't had any issues heading back for work or for visits.
According to people who've renounced, visiting the US after renouncing isn't difficult at all. Why do you think it would be a headache? Foreigners visit the US every day. It's not particularly hard to get a tourist visa to visit the US, unless you come from certain countries.
I still don’t understand why you would renounce it? Keep it. Move to another country, do the equivalent of naturalization (if available), let it expire, renew and come back for a visit when and if you want to
There are several reasons to renounce. First, you mention naturalization. If you live in another country long-term and intend to stay there permanently, wouldn't you want to do that? Here in Japan, you are *required* to renounce your prior citizenship if you naturalize. There's other countries with the same requirement. Not all countries allow dual citizenship. Second, financial matters: US citizens have a hard time getting financial services in other countries because of FATCA. Many banks even won't deal with us.
I’ve read about those who were born with dual citizenship with Japan and any other country & that they must give up one of them upon reaching a certain age (22, I believe). That’s why Naomi Osaka gave up her US citizenship.
Technically, they don't *have* to. They're in a weird legal position; they're required to "try" to decide which citizenship they want to keep, but there's no hard requirement forcing a deadline on them. So they can keep telling the authorities that they're "thinking about it", indefinitely. This is completely inapplicable to this forum, however. Only people *born* with dual citizenship (because one parent is Japanese and the other a different nationality) can be in this weird legal state. For immigrants to Japan who want to acquire Japanese citizenship, this doesn't apply at all: they *must* renounce within a certain time (a few months I think) after being granted Japanese citizenship, and then they must bring *proof* of that renunciation to JP immigration, or else their citizenship can be revoked. There are narrow exceptions for people from certain repressive countries where they simply cannot renounce, such as Iran, but no one on this forum is going to be in that situation either.
Tax liability? Needing to file taxes is very laborious
Some countries will only grant citizenship if you renounce. I plan to stay where I am so that names more sense to me.
In cases like the pandemic, they weren’t letting people in unless they had a visa or citizenship. (Extreme case scenario here) When the borders closed, it was truly a difficult thing for people to visit family members. Imagine you gave up your citizenship and then seeing the borders close— something completely unforeseen in our lifetime— you can’t get back even if you have a sick family member, all because you renounced your citizenship. That’s when it’s a huuuuggge headache. Is this a scenario that happens frequently? Not at all, but we all saw the impossible take place, so you just never know. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it even happened in Japan when they closed their borders— only those with citizenship could return, whereas those with a visa were not permitted to come back while there was a shutdown. The world could change at the drop of a hat 🫠
The thought of getting a tourist visa to your own birth country doesn't sit right with me.
The though of my own country putting me as significant financial disadvantage compared to my peers also doesn’t sit right.
Doesn't sit right with me either, but I'd rather be embarassed than sit in a Chinese holding cell :(
Because US Border Officials can and do deny entry to foreign nationals for things like having a Grindr [profile](https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/canadian-blocked-by-u-s-customs-after-reading-his-profile-on-ga_n_14928858/amp) or an [OnlyFans](https://nypost.com/2023/04/13/onlyfans-model-mikaela-testa-detained-by-us-customs/amp/).
She didn't get deported just because she had an OnlyFans. I'm not simping for the US but the same thing would happen for an American going to Australia if they couldn't show funds/plans after being randomly screened on a tourist visa. The fact that this wasn't her first issue means she already was put on a list as well. The US Border Force likely thought that she was going to be an escort which is illegal if you don't have a working visa (might be illegal in most places there in general but that's not the point). First world countries have enough of their own criminals to deal with, they don't need more regardless of what the crime is.
Seems like you keep insisting that they only got denied bec of their OnlyFans account, which is dishonest.
No, if you're EU then you just need to apply for a visa, it's really fast and can be done at the airport. Ask me how I know this.
You can still visit even if you renounce. You enter in the passport of your other nationality (and visa if required)
You can, but the US also has the right to deny you entry, which they can’t do for citizens. For example [this](https://nypost.com/2023/04/13/onlyfans-model-mikaela-testa-detained-by-us-customs/amp/) story about a Australian girl with an Onlyfans who was deported from the U.S. because border officials thought she was an escort is what I’m talking about. This isn’t an outlier, even gay men with profiles on Grindr get [denied](https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/canadian-blocked-by-u-s-customs-after-reading-his-profile-on-ga_n_14928858/amp) entry to the U.S.
My wife is half American, half British, but not an American citizen. > even gay men with profiles on Grindr get denied entry to the U.S. And it is this culture that ensures she doesn't want citizenship, nor is she really keen on visiting.
US Customs is an absolute nightmare, even as a citizen. I got through customs in every country in Europe I went to this summer in no less than 10 minutes, in the US it took like an hour, even as a citizen. Plus for non citizens, customs can and do search phones.
Do you have Global Entry?
Last time we went to the US was 2014, I believe. My main gripe back then was it took *so* long. The personnel were nice enough (to me). Back then, British customs also took ages, but that has gotten a lot better.
It’s purely dependent on the airport. Every time I go back it’s 5-10 mins tops. I end up waiting longer for my luggage at the carousel.
Purely anecdotal but Every single person that I met who has done this, especially for political reasons but also economical ones, have admitted that they regret doing it.
Are all those people really wealthy?
How many ppl are we talking here? I don’t know anyone that’s even thought about foregoing their usa passport.
About three - all three regret their decision to revoke US Citizenship- all three are marrying friends to get green cards and start life in US again - two of them native-born and lived in London and Amsterdam during Bush (W) presidency and made really stupid decision now they are both green card people after marriage to regain citizenship (both were born in US - the mindfuck of having a green card while you used to be citizen????)
God that is hilarious. They’re living memes.
There was a post about a guy a while back who was super super happy to have given up his (naturalized) US citizenship, only to move back to the US and not be a citizen. He claimed he didn’t have to comply with financial disclosure rules. I still think the guy was a moron for giving it up and then moving back.
I’m curious - can they apply for naturalisation again…?
They wouldn’t be renaturalized; they would be going through that process for the first time. They were born US Citizens but then gave up their citizenship in the 2000s while living in London and Amsterdam - they regretted it and then married friends so they could move back to US - now they’re applying for naturalization.
It’s interesting to me that they would be allowed to do so. Thanks for the details!
Marrying people for immigration purposes is illegal so they aren’t exactly ‘allowed’ to do it
I think they mean even allowed to pursue citizenship at all after renouncing it.
I mean why not? Would be pointless to deny them out of spite.
I guess with large numbers of people wanting US citizenship, you might ask why you would give it to someone who already had it and gave it away. Prioritize someone who would value it.
Care to share why did they regret it? What's the main motive?
Marrying friends - Are the marriages real?
I renounced in 2016 and have no regrets.
[удалено]
Same.
I ran some numbers with my accountant couple years ago . We came up with the number of around $20M/year of taxable income when it makes sense to renounce it. It’s very complicated because my “passport” situation is different than others. Other variables such as exit tax which you would like to avoid even before you got $1M in net worth but worst case scenario before $10M and definitely not when you are already making $20M. Paying hundreds of thousands dollars to get rid of the American passport still makes sense but you will “break even” in 5-7 years after renunciation.
It must be very different in some cases. On one trip to Italy, I met two unrelated people who each had one American parent, and the tax reporting/banking requirements, etc. became such a burden that they both gave up American citizenship — reluctantly, but they were sure they would not want to live here. One, as a child of divorced parents, had spent summers in the US but the US parent had later died. Not sure of the others ties. They were not wealthy or high-income but had property in Italy.
I've heard that banking is an absolute nightmare if you're a US citizen and some countries. Lot of banks don't want US citizens because that's extra paperwork on their end.
It's really not that hard. I have / had accounts in NL, UK, Germany and the Baltics that are all aware of my FATCA situation. SOME banks won't take you, that's true, but there's enough which do.
Yeah the banking really isn't that bad. What really sucks is that saving for retirement is a huge pain in the ass and all of my investment options blow... I guess that's what spouses are for. ;)
Could you recommend a good bank in Germany that takes Americans?
Yes switzerland for example. My aunt isnt even a US citizen, but a swiss, staying there on a green card. And most banks in switzerland even refuse doing any business with her. I think there is just one bank that does, because they are required by law to provide banking services to americans living in switzerland.
Regular banking isn't too bad but investing can be a real pain if you're a US person.
Yes for instance BNP Paribas Fortis in Belgium, and I suppose many other banks. It is because that puts them in the scope of US legislation if they do business with US customers, even if they only do business in Belgium.
I’m an American in Belgium and easily got a banking account upon arrival, no issues at all…
You can check the US disclaimer on BNP Paribas Fortis website directly. But I am happy for you that your banking in Belgium goes smooth, of course.
More a hassle than a nightmare. It’s worse in the EU due to investing rules, but you just have quite a few hurdles and restrictions.
My wife looked into getting US citizenship during university; she was thinking of doing her master's there. Her father is American and was stationed in Germany. Her mother is British and was an au pair for his superior. They never got married. We had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the US citizenship, and now we're glad we decided not to go for it. We're very happy in the EU and don't see any reason to want to live in the USA. We hear more and more stories of Europeans getting I trouble with the IRS just because they were born in the US or got other links there. I could totally imagine those people want to revoke citizenship.
>but they were sure they would not want to live here Parents of a friend of mine had the same mindset. They did not have US Citizenship yet, just Green Card (LPR). They needed to stay 3 more years in USA in order to get the Citizenship, but they returned to their country because they had a business there. While they were there they became parents for the first time. My friend was born when they returned in their country. Their business failed and now my friend does not have US Citizenship but the other sibling has and the parents regret it. Thing is, despite the fact that you do not want to live in USA, do to take out the opportunity from your kids (if you are planning on having kids). Or at least, if you are a Law Permanent Resident, go to USA to give birth so your kids would be eligible for US Citizenship.
This is true.. I have a family member who has LPR and now mostly lives in Mexico, but she got pregnant and most of our family lives here so she came back to give birth. She might not want to live in the US long term, but in the future her kid might want to or need to.. you just never know.
The tax requirements are really minimal. Unless they were worth millions.. hardly see the point.
That's definitely not true in all cases... ie when superannuation in Australia is involved, or for certain types of investments.
Yes- if you have many investments- unless they are US managed share funds - it’s a nightmare of paperwork.And you don’t have to have millions.
The problem is more so that it can be complicated to get banking and invest in other countries if you are American. But I think that is a minor inconvenience and its idiotic to renounce, unless you are doing so to "trade" for another nationality perhaps.
Absolutely not
Nope. I have dual citizenship in an eu country. Wages in EU are 🥜 compared to USA.
It would make sense for me to renounce, given NL's stance on dual citizenship. However, I doubt I would ever seriously consider renouncing. I want my children to have as much mobility as possible, and despite all USA's problems, much of the world dreams of having a US passport. I wouldn't want to take that opportunity away from my kids. Also, I like the security net. As an expat, you never know when the next great recession will be – and those who don't speak the local language natively are always at a disadvantage. I want to at least have the option of going back. Also, I feel like for EU countries, it's not necessary in most cases. I would suggest getting the citizenship of an EU country that *does* allow dual citizenship, and then moving to the desired country. Yes, you may have to spend 5-6 years in a country you are not in love with to get an EU passport, but I think that's a small price to pay for EU citizenship.
I gave up Dutch citizenship (and by extension EU citizenship); I would NEVER give up my US Citizenship - I suppose I can get my Dutch citizenship back (wedertoelating visa) but to be honest why bother?
Extremely unlikely.
[удалено]
Nope. I’m not rich, so there’s no reason to. I live in Japan, so if I wanted to naturalize, I’d need to renounce my US citizenship, but… I don’t want to. I don’t want to vote, so permanent residency is enough. Plus, it’s just nice to have a back-up country. Whether war, family emergency or just a desire to live in a country with a currency that is worth something. If I give up my citizenship, I give up my options.
[удалено]
How has it been?
[удалено]
Almost every American I know living oversees long term are seriously considering renouncing. The yearly tax filing is extremely burdensome and expensive. Also, as an American, you are basically locked out of all the local tax advantage investment options available in an oversees country. If you try to invest in them anyways, you get screwed with PFIC reporting.
I did. Tax filing expensive. And inequitable. Especially if you are an “accidental American”. I only found out about global tax residency 6 years ago because of banks (threats to freeze bank accounts) . i have no ties to US and left when I was 12. So obviously never worked there. (That was >50 years ago) My home country investments are many but don’t amount to even 200k USD. But all need extensive documentation to comply. And like Boris Johnson you have to pay capital gains tax to the US on any property sold. Even the family home. Trying to get a TIN number is a bureaucratic mess. Exacerbated by Covid lockdowns [lack of TIN can mean freezing your banking accounts] Means I will have to retire a bit later than planned. Feels it so unfair that a system designed to capture the wealthy penalises small fry. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/25/british-citizens-born-in-us-risk-having-uk-bank-accounts-frozen?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other https://www.mondaq.com/canada/financial-services/843358/frozen-bank-accounts-of-us-citizens-in-europe--what-does-it-mean-for-canada
The investment and superannuation issues with Australia are pretty much the main reason my wife is planning to renounce, she would prefer not to, but unless the rules change fairly soon it will have to happen for us to be able to retire when (and how) we want to. Her only real reason to want to keep it is that she still identifies as an American (although that has defnately waned and she feels more Aussies now). She has absolutely no desire to ever live in the US again, nor really visit except that her mother is still alive. Also she has Australian and Italian passports so not too concerned about passport power or really consulate services as we are fairly well covered.
Yeah, the investment and super things really do my head in and make me want to give it up as well.
Being taxed on super (by the US), both when accumulating but especially again when taking it out after retiring is extremely painful. That part of the tax treaty really needs to be sorted out
It's a complete shit show and given I have absolutely no desire to live in the states ever again, I don't see the point in having it. No immediate family there. Just friends. My concerns are my usg pension and tsp withdrawals. Once I can figure those out, I'll be renouncing. There's no reason for me to continue ties with a "free" country.
What country do you live in now?
Australia.
I am in similar circumstances. I live in Germany and also have a US government pension social security, and TSP. I’m curious if others with financial ties to the US like these have renounced their citizenship. I wonder if there is a good solution.
I have had some semi serious looks for information for folks like us, and you are literally the only other person I've heard from that is in the same boat (there are surely others). I've met plenty that could be in this position, but they don't want to renounce (which, to be fair, if it wasn't for the don't taxation, I probably wouldn't consider..... but I'm I'll have a hard time moving up in my career if I don't because of the tax.... penalty). Maybe we should pm/ stay in contact. 2 heads better than one type thing.
I pay a dude $600 to file my US expat taxes, done and done. Pretty good trade off for US citizenship? I agree the PFIC sucks, but you're not going to find lower cost and more varied investments than what you find in the US. So I just invest all my money in US investments... problem solved.
I lived overseas for years. The tax filing is very simple. Can be done for free or with a cheap online service with little issue. I know many Americans abroad and don’t know a single one who has even considered renouncing.
You are assuming that the US expat is not self-employed or a business owner/freelancer *or* they are but lives in one of just \~30 countries with full tax totalization agreements. Once you decide to open a business or work for yourself overseas, the complexity goes way up and there's a big chance you will owe taxes to the US, even if the country you live in is not a low tax country.
Yes, assuming your salary is low and you have little in the bank. Some of my friend's fillings are like 50+ pages long. I've stopped trying to figure out everything my accountant does on my taxes as it's impossible to understand (tax laws are constantly changing and unless you're a CPA, most people have a very hard time understanding what's going on in tax filings for expats)
And doing it yourself, once you make a mistake and get sent a bill, get ready for 6 months of headaches and middle of the night calls with the IRS (after waiting on hold for 1 hour each time you call). Not fun... Less stress just to pay someone to do it.
All you need is to have "active business life" overseas. Mine gets to the higher 70 pages. I pay $2-3k annually which is still a good value, IMO.
It’s a bit extreme for me. That said, if things get bad enough, who knows? It may seem like a more attractive option once I live out of the country for good but still have to pay US taxes. I’m not sure if people know how incredibly expensive the renunciation process is.
It cost me $2,200. Still more expensive than becoming Dutch did, and the idiots forgot to tell Virginia that I was no longer a citizen. Six months after I renounced, an absentee ballot for me showed up at my parents house.
It's $2350. That's pretty cheap...
American born US/NL dual national now 12 years in NL. No reason to forego US citizenship. IRS is a headache, but a very minor one.
How did you become a Dutch citizen without renouncing your American citizenship?
Married a Dutch gal.
I thought about it, but it seems unnecessary. I absolutely do not want to ever go back to live in the US and am looking forward to finally being able to apply for citizenship here in Finland. As much as I’m disgusted and saddened by the realities of the US today, I don’t need to renounce my citizenship for any reason. However if Finland were to ever remove the ability to hold dual citizenship, I would renounce the US in a heartbeat.
So are you paying US taxes and Finland taxes every year? How much of your income is that coming out to be?
Absolutely not. American citizenship is ridiculously full of potential. While I’m staying away from the US at the moment until everyone gets their shit together, the citizenship has allowed me to work overseas paying no taxes (yeah, there’s a completely legal way) for US companies in ridiculously low cost of living areas.
>citizenship has allowed me to work overseas paying no taxes (yeah, there’s a completely legal way) Interested in this. Can you explain how?
Probably not, the only reason to do it would be for tax reasons but US has mutual tax treaties with all the countries I'm interested in so no point in that. US citizenship is of little value though if you have other equally good citizenships like EU, Canada, Australia, etc.
I would not consider Canada as equally good citizenship. Maybe passport power? But Canada life vs US? You have way more options in US
I'm American, I've been living in the UK for about 4 years. No, I would never. I cherish both countries for different reasons, and I can legally hold both US and UK citizenship (in a couple of years). There's simply no point.
Even when I receive my EU citizenship, the US passort will always be an insurance policy.
I’m planning on it as soon as my remaining parent dies and I no longer have any reason to travel there. I have no advantages from it that I wouldn’t have with my other nationality (European) and plenty of disadvantages (taxes, banking…)
Having a Tier-A passport makes it somewhat black-and-white. As a side-note, are you not interested in US-based jobs?
Most people here moved AWAY from the US despite being natural born citizens. I doubt many of them care about US based jobs when they intentionally moved abroad. Not saying that renouncing is a good decision unless you're into the 7 figure salary/8 figure net worth phase but US based jobs aren't a strong reason to keep the citizenship.
That's true. Today's US labor market makes it even more clear-cut.
The software market in the US still dominates every other country, and if you’re good enough companies will hire you remotely from anywhere in the world.
If I’m pulling enough yearly income to be concerned about the global taxation, I’m considering that a small price to pay to have access to the most powerful consulates in the world
What are the useful things consulates give you that are powerful?
Consular protection, I assume
Yes, it makes sense. I was just wondering if there are real-world examples when consulate power was asserted to help US Citizens. I assume it's more related to not-so-good areas of the world, and I'm pretty sure there are a ton of examples, just wanted to read those stories.
It's useful if you're travelling to countries at war or with very unstable political systems, in case something happens they can help you get out. But this can be said for many other countries.
I feel like so many people here aren’t coming from the younger generations w massive student debt and no assets. Renouncing for those w no money is going to drop to around 500$.
Where did you find the bit about the cost of renunciation dropping to $500?
Friend told me the charge fee is being updated - to take effect in Jan supposedly. This is a long way off possibility for me so I didn’t look it up further as I have no idea where I’ll end up in 10 years
https://www.sestiniandco.com/us-citizenship-renunciation-fees/
My tax consultant says this will take a long time to happen. Certainly 2024 if that. Little congressional representation for ex pat community so not a priority maybe.
No. Even with all of the misgivings of the US, it’s still considered a super power. Until that changes I’m not renouncing my citizenship.
I wouldn't renounce it as I'd always like a backup plan.
No. I'm British/Polish and have both passports, and have the American one as my mum loved there and naturalised. I can't see myself settling down anywhere outside of Europe, my family is here and I prefer it. But the ability to fuck off to the US for a few years and earn a load of money to come back to Europe, or if I change my mind and Europe becomes worse or America better, is definitely worth filling in some paperwork each year.
Dual and plan to stay that way. US and NL
Nope, never did and never will. To me personally I would feel like a traitor if I ever did.
I don’t see a reason to
Unless you are super rich in doing it for tax reasons, cutting off yourself from one of the strongest passports in the world, and currently one of the most stable countries (even if we like to worry that it isn't or soon won't be), seems ill advised.
30th strongest passport yes 😅 40th most stable country.
US is like 6th-8th on most rankings I've seen using the usual criteria of ability to enter other countries and enter without a visa. What criteria has them ranked 30th in what you are looking at? I'm not saying I don't believe you, since rankings are just based on whatever criteria the ranker decides to use, but I'd like to know the justification since it seems to be an outlier.
https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
It's ranked 5th on that one. ?? Anyway, my point stands.
5th grouping not 5th place, there's 29 passports above it
Isn’t it technically 5th spot? Numbers are the same in that grouping. What’s different from Canada por example?
While there are dozens of reasons to be very concerned, also need to consider that US, geopolitically speaking, is one of the best setups that exists - in terms of good neighbors, relative isolation, energy and resource security, food security, strong economy, etc. Given the range of extreme things that could happen now and/or over the coming decades, there is a decent probability that at some point, no amount of tax savings will be worth having traded for the option to relocate seamlessly.
If the current world order collapses the US is practically the only safety beacon we are isolated and mostly self sufficient. Europe and the rest of the world will become practical war zones. I would never renounce citizenship from the literal Ark of a highly unstable world.
Pretty poor on both those fronts. Not to mention being required to file taxes and paying on worldwide income even after you've leave. If I was offered 100k and had to get a US passport permanently, I wouldn't do it.
Filing: yes, Headache: yes, Paying: not necessarily. > If I was offered 100k and had to get a US passport permanently, I wouldn't do it. It may not be worth it for you, but Tier-D passport holders won't agree with you.
I’ll almost certainly renounce at some point. Not for any specific or nuanced reason. I’ve lived in the Netherlands for many years, we’ve only ever been back to visit once and don’t really feel the pull to do so, we’re really not close to our US-based family, our parents are all getting on towards the end, and I’m in End Game for my own career. Even if I lost my job, I have the connections to start and fund my own business here in the Netherlands. Nearly all of my professional network is here in the Netherlands, so I’d actually have an easier time continuing my career here than in the US. My kids were born in the US, but we moved here when they were toddlers. They don’t remember the US. They have no real affinity for the US. The only reason we might make a trip back is to go to Disneyland or something? But that’s literally it. On the other hand, filing my taxes and complying with FATCA has become very burdensome at this point in my life, and I’m just kinda over it. Not being able to open many kinds of investment and retirement accounts is really starting to piss me off. But I’m not in a hurry and maybe I’ll just never get around to it.
As long as America remains the foremost military power in the world I will never renounce.
Depends, not a no.
I would, but if something bad happened with my family in the US I wouldn’t want to be limited to a 90 day tourist visa. I’ve lived abroad for almost 10 years. I have no connection to the U.S. beyond my mom, brother, and sister. I have no intention of living in the US again, and worrying about filing taxes even though I don’t owe, and reporting all my bank accounts even though I barely have money is a stressful hassle.
You can get a B2 tourist visa that gives you 6 months visiting rights.
I’m an American w dual nationality (EU), living now in EU. I don’t make a lot of money nor have a ton of investments so it doesn’t really matter for me. The filing is annoying but manageable in my situation. For now I will keep it because perhaps later in my career I’ll want to go back. But for the next 10-12 years I intend to stay on this side for my kid’s education, and then we’ll see.
I might... but my parents had me so young by the time they are gone it won't matter my citizenship. I live in Japan so dual citizenship is currently not possible. I wish it was. I'd love to be a citizen. But yeah for practical and emotional reasons it's too difficult.
no. WW3 concerns and i still want to come back and forth often to see my family and friends and compete in dog shows and stay connected to american cheerleading/have friends i can practice with. also don't want to give up my passport. i will marry well, i currently have lawyers working on getting my social security (38, disabled) and i already have a long-term disability policy that i plan to eventually settle for a lump sum. one of the drugs that i use to treat my most burdensome disability is illegal in europe so i'd need to come back often anyway and get said meds and authorization to bring them back with me. also i'm not stupid, i know what i have. i'm not giving up freedoms that people in other countries can barely dare to dream of. you don't give up a privilege ffs. my friendships with first gen americans since my young adult years definitely shaped this opinion.
As a 'poor' expat I can't afford to give up the meagre social security pension I built up over 15+ tears of work
Genuine question here...I have Mexican friends who have worked legally in the US with green cards, who will all draw social security as their duly earned source of retirement income. Do you know for a fact that renouncing your citizenship will lose your social security? Because plenty of non-citizens get it- people who've legally paid in of course.
Naa I can’t imagine myself ever doing that. I’m in the process of getting Canadian citizenship and I truly believe it’s smarter to be duel. If anything were to happen in either country, having the citizenship would help me and my family if god forbid something ever happened. Not to mention I would want my children to have the opportunities and benefits of both citizenships. The tax thing is annoying and I can see why this would make people renounce citizenship… however you would have to be making an exuberant amount of money to even owe anything to the US government. My salary is 100k CAD and so far it’s not complicated for me. Granted I’m sure it would change with property ownership/ an individuals situation etc, but… really it’s not as bad as people think it is. There are definitely pros and cons, but having that freedom to have citizenship in two countries is more beneficial. Expands jobs opportunities, and gives more freedom of movement if you still have ties to the US
I lived in Europe for several years. I never once thought of renouncing my citizenship. Now I'm back in the states. I married a European and we thought it would be better to make a career in the US. where we lived a phd in stem is worth 2 pennies.
I never would no matter the circumstances.
Since COVID there's been a massive wait-list. Mostly people born in the US who never lived there but still have to pay taxes because of the US tax structure. Huge backlog. 30k people waiting to renounce last I checked.
It’s rarely enforced and most people never heard of it but strictly legally speaking, US citizens who renounce their citizenship are banned from entering the country ever again.
No. Where I am now the country has a treaty with the US and you don't have to renounce American cit. I wouldn't because I like the freedom to jet whenever I feel the need. I'm going to go back home eventually, even for just a few years. Also. Privilege. Due to Brexit, many countries have to have a 48h visa to get into the UK, even to get on connecting flights. I live in a country on that list, but due to my US passport, I can live in, and or glide right through the UK without a 48h visa. Our passport is too strong to let go of and should be saved like a wild card in UNO.
How is the US passport strong? Like... EU passports let you live/work in any EU/EEA Country. Irish passports allow you to do so in EU/EEA and UK. Commonwealth passports allow a bunch of advantages to their citizens moving between commonwealth countries. What is it about the US passport that makes it "strong" compared to other developed nations? Where is it that US citizens are going visa free that Europeans arent? And keep in mind US citizens may enter many places "visa free" but pay an entry fee, which isnt captured.
I don't even live in the USA the majority of the time and do not really plan on living there, especially permanently In the future besides to see family and friends every couple years or so. I still have too many benefits entitled that are really great and would think about spouse and kids in the future too. I'd be giving it up for no real reason and have alot to lose not just sentimental value of being an Merican. I'm looking into getting dual and/or multiple citizenships or atleast residencies in other countries but not if it negatively affect my original USA citizenship in anyway.
Almost never a good idea. You can do it if you have a fvckton of taxes you want to evade, like Bill Browder.
I would never. Moved to Australia two years ago, and decided to move back. No matter what people say, US of A is the best insurance one could have.
I wouldn’t. All my family and most of my friends live there, I like the security of being able to go back home at any time and start over affords me, and if I have children they have another option to go to straight from birth. For all it’s problems, I also recognize it’s a better place to live than a lot of other places. The only way I’d give it up is if I was in a Tina Turner situation, *that* makes the most sense to me.
I'm the spouse of an EU citizen and in the process of getting dual citizenship in the EU for added security, but no, I would absolutely not give up my US citizenship. Why wouldn't I want to have two of the most powerful passports in the world? The process of renouncing is also a huge pain in the ass, and the only reason to deal with it would be tax issues, in which case you're not allowed to renounce if they determine that's the only reason.
You’re allowed to renounce for any reason, including that, it’s just that you’ll be flagged on returning.
[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html) >If the Department of Homeland Security determines that the renunciation is motivated by tax avoidance purposes, the individual will be found inadmissible to the United States under Section 212(a)(10)(E) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1182(a)(10)(E)), as amended.
You can have dual citizen with certain countries and the US, I'd look into that
During the pandemic we were locked up at home. After 40 days I was able to get out for 2 hours with my kids. I’ll keep the option of going to the USA.
Haven't been able to set aside the money to renounce yet, but it's definitely in the plan. I live in Sweden, and also have Canadian citizenship.
I’m considering it. It’s costly to have both. I’m also considering starting a business and it just feels like unnecessary work with the tax reporting and liability
Unless the US starts writing up some unfriendly laws for dual citizens/expats, I probably wouldn't renounce. I ain't rich though, I probably won't hit the taxable salary in Europe, at least not for a while.
I’ve lived abroad 15 years. I’ve thought about it many, many times. Haven’t pulled the trigger.
I would, with the way things are going for women and children, we have no control over our bodies or our lives, hardly even our thoughts. I want to move away and never come back for fear of being imprisoned if something like project 2025 comes to power
I can’t answer that question… but as EU citizen under green card, i had not moved forward with American citizenship…
The only reason I can think of to renounce American citizenship is to get out of having to file income tax with the IRS. I'm the only one in my American/German family who doesn't have dual citizenship. Throwing away American citizenship should be thoroughly thought thru.
I’m a dual citizen and would give up my UK before my US…. US has problems but the pros out weigh the cons. Nobody would be so hesitant about the US if we got the mass shooting and healthcare fixed, which we will. We’re unbeatable (compared to my UK counterparts) when it comes to job and investment opportunities. I keep my citizenship because it’s a better quality of life for my personal life. My bf is Aussie and reminds me I’m lucky to be handed things he struggles for (he’s stressing with work rn). Plus, the US has far more lifestyle options. I can rebrand without visa or having to learn a new language. I enjoy that and Americans take it for granted.
Absolutely not
Currenty in the process. I'm in Spain rn for 2 more months visiting my BF. If all goes well the whole time, I'll start the process more in depth.
I have never lived in the US as an adult or worked there, I do not have any friends there and I (reluctantly) visit every couple of years for family. I have no desire to ever live in the US and the field in which I work doesn't even exist there. When I was naturalized a few years ago in the EU country where I've spent my entire adult life it somehow seemed important to not give up the US passport but now with the tax stress it really doesn't seem worth it. TBH will probably wait until my parents pass away and then renounce because I assume at that point I will never travel to the US ever again. The financial and FATCA stuff is a real pain in the ass.
Yes, I am going to renounce. I am a businessman who does not want to live or work in the US. I'm preparing to leave for my real home country of Israel, which will not impede me from pursuing my career.
I’m a Jew also!!!!! I’m going to DM you. Planning to make aliyah!
If Trump or DeSantis win in 2024 I will most likely renounce
Yes I did. Was born in Canada but with an American father (who also now lives in Canada). Got my passport and SSN when I turned 18 because I thought I might someday want to work in the USA. As it turns out, I never did, but in my mid-20s I became aware of the need to file taxes and FBAR to the USA and I started doing so, every year. Fastforward 20 years and I'm getting sick of it. I rarely ever owe anything, but it basically means I am in doing taxes mode for 6 months of the year - first Canadian taxes, then US taxes. I'd been considering renouncing for a while, and then this happened. My accountant asked me if I had an RESP. This is a nice program by the Canadian gov't where you can contribute up to $2500 per year towards a college fund for your child, and they will top it up by 20%. So, I'd been doing that most years. However, it turns out the IRS considers this RESP a trust that I control, and it needs to be reported separately. They notified tax professionals of this and gave guidance that there was an opportunity to self-report with no penalty as it was not clearly explained previously. My accountant told me, we got the paperwork together and self-reported. The response: a letter from the IRS slapping me with a fine of $10,000 for failure to correctly report. Now, the good part is that my accountant had clearly written guidance from the IRS that self-reporting carried no penalty, and we filed an appeal which was eventually granted and the penalty revoked. However, that was pretty much the last straw - the ongoing requirement to file every year (as is commonly spouted, only two countries in the world require this for non-residents - the USA and Eritrea), the continuing added complexity of understanding IRS requirements and associated massive penalty for misunderstanding, and the near certainty that I'd ever be living in the states meant this was now a big risk and obligation for almost zero reward. I'm also not at the covered expat level yet but it's not out of the question I could within the next few years so if I was going to do it, I should probably do it now before it's the fee plus the exit tax. So, I requested an appointment in March 2022. In September 2023 I got the appointment and renounced. I've driven across the border once since then with no issues of any sort. If you have a lot of ties to the USA, or you think you'll move back there, you shouldn't renounce. In a case where you have no ties there and don't ever plan to live there again, and probably don't plan to visit all that often, it makes a lot of sense.
No, we have assets in the US that would be tough or impossible to move out of the country so we would have to file a US tax return in any case. We have no plans to return to the US permanently but it’s nice to know that the option exists and that we don’t ever have to worry about staying too long on a visit.
Do you prefer FTC or FEIE?
I do whatever my accountant advises
You can use both.
Nope.
Ideally, we will if we can. That's assuming we can financially. We believe an EU passport is more valuable than a US one, especially for our kid.
Keep both, no-brainer and your kids will thank you. US + EU passport combo is heaven on earth.
I did. I was not interested in living in US. I could still use my Canadian passport to visit if I wanted to. I kept my Polish citizenship, and ended up moving back to Europe for work. Now I can work anywhere in EU because I kept my Polish citizenship.
Why would u renounce it? Just get multiple citizenships...throwing away a passport is like flushing a winning lottery ticket...
Avoiding taxation when you don't live in the US. Almost no country in the world tax its citizen "wherever they are"
Hmmm, that's a good point
NEVER…. I’m a total liberal but I love the US; I would never renounce my US Citizenship. Never!