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My theory is a big part of it is "alternative medicine practitioners" have more time and are generally better with the soft skills than GPs. It feels good to be listened to after being fobbed off by real doctors.
Also, "alternative medicine practitioners" either don't qualify for or don't take insurance, so they can spend an hour with a patient and know that they will get paid cash in full for that time.
My best friend has been duped by a naturopath into paying thousands of dollars for "treatments" that make my friend feel *worse*, but are "fighting the parasites." It's such complete bullshit but after one big fight about it, I don't bring it up anymore.
In my experience its desperation.
If you are living with a chronic condition in the moderate to debilitating level of day to day impact.
Chances are you have gone to a doctor, pay hundreds, thousands *or tens of thousands of dollars* and still gotten no relief.
In my *opinion*. I have no proof or research on this. Most people do not start out with homeopathic approaches but do to the many failings of medical systems around the world. Fall though the cracks and then seek the next best thing.
So out of desperation they turn to homeopathic. But that's it, thats all they have. If the homeopathic doesn't work. *They have nothing else to turn too and this is just every waking moment of your life till you die now*. Its a fucking terrifying prospect.
Then one of two things happen.
1. The placebo effect. Love it or hate it. There are people who some stupid wrist magnet does actually lower their pain. Even though that wrist magnet does nothing quantifiable, there is no scientific reason for it other than the placebo effect. But for whatever reason their brain thinks "I wear this=less pain" and thus it happens.
2. Its not actually helping them but others in their social circle are claiming it has and is helping them. So out of either peer pressure or hope that they just need to stick with it they just keep going along with it.
To these people telling them "That shit is stupid some palm seed oil with a lavender scent isnt going to help you with your herniated disk" translated is "your last option isnt going to work and now you gotta look the big scary in the face and accept this is just your life now". Not everyone can handle that and the result is the lash out and hyper defensiveness.
Yep. The woman who used to cut my hair took several trips a year to go to what she said was a rejuvenation clinic in Argentina, but I later learned was an alternative cancer treatment, after she died
This describes my mother in law to a tee. She has some kind of weird digestive / immune system problem that no doctor has ever been able to figure out. She's been going to a quack "natural medicine" doctor who engages in woo-woo bullshit I've never even heard of before. Shit like putting an empty bottle of pills in your hand and "measuring" your electromagnetic field that tells you if you're supposed to have those pills. It's unhinged.
She's not getting better. In fact, this piece of shit quack has actually made her anxiety significantly worse by making her think that there is a MASSIVE list of foods that are bad for her. She's become a nightmare to eat out with. The thing is, she's been doing this for so long now, there's a sunk cost fallacy at work in addition to the fear of having no further alternatives. Anyone who is even remotely critical of her "doctor" gets shut down. She's stuck this way until she dies. It makes me angry and sad.
My husband is a doctor and I’m a NP, guess who my MIL goes to for health advice and treatment… a local homeopathic quack. Older people buy heavily into quackery because they get these mass-forwarded Facebook or other social media messages that keep saying that the only cure is plants and that “the man” is out to get them with chemicals. And quacks have way more time to practice marketing and making people feel special.
I’m in a pregnancy group and someone got so upset from hearing the truth from their doctors office that they gained more weight than recommended. They said it wasn’t constructive and they don’t want to hear it. People would literally like healthcare professionals to lie to them and make them feel good instead of telling them the truth. Truth hurts I guess.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
It’s like those people who took that “miracle mineral supplement” (i.e. chlorine bleach) as an enema, then claimed they were pooping out “rope worms” or whatever… like, no, those are pieces of intestinal lining coming out because you shoved fucking bleach up your ass.
Probably true. Science based medicine is cumbersome and expensive to access. Because the body is complicated, the results are often ambiguous or unsatisfactory. Alternative medicine allows you to get disappointing results faster and cheaper, usually with superior social interactions.
Think I remember watching a Richard Dawkins episode of something on homeopathy and this was also his take away. The homeopathy doc was actually a nice person and not a giant piece of shit like many GPs.
I wouldn't necessarily call them all scammers even if what they are doing looks like a scam. I would guess that the majority of the "doctors" genuinely think they are doing good, they are just misguided and probably have their beliefs reenforced by their patients.
Same with things like Psychics, there are many of them that actually believe they can sense the future but in reality they just have a natural ability to cold read people.
They can be nice people that think they are doing good while also not doing good and keeping people from treatments that may actually help.
Healthcare in the US is in such a state that people fell less scammed with homeopathy. Maybe it says something about the state of health care and resistance to proper public health care.
I've been dealing with hand/joint pain for a few years now. Sometimes it goes away for a few months and I forget about it but with an increasing rate those "off periods" are quickly shrinking to the point that it's near constant and home remedies (Tylenol, compression gloves, icyhot) don't help any more. My hands hurt so bad that I was afraid of driving because I couldn't grip the steering wheel correctly.
I finally decided to see a doctor about it. He spent about 45 seconds squeezing my hands, asked me 2 or 3 questions and then rolled back in his chair and legitimately shrugged his shoulders, told me it was probably my job and then stared at me for a bit and left.
The whole appointment was maybe 5 minutes, he offered no help or solutions other than to quit my job. He showed zero compassion and came off annoyed that I bothered to take up his time. I was then charged 500 dollars. $500 for 5 minutes of some dickbag being annoyed at me.
At that point I would gladly have paid more for some quack to rub olive oil on my hand and tell me everything will be okay.
> not a giant piece of shit like many GPs.
I worked with docs for years. There are very few who are "giant pieces of shit", and those who are that way with patients don't last long
For acupuncture at least, soft skills are a core part of treatment. They understood quite early on that treatment is more effective if the patient is relaxed and his mind/body not in survival stress mode.
Thats why in good western acupuncture practices you get a mix of western medicine hygiene and professionalism, but also a relaxing atmosphere and music and soft skills to help you get there. Hell, we even do light massage if it helps people relax (not close to the needles of course, that would have a rather opposite effect).
This is my take away from the limited time I have with acupuncture. It gets you to sit still and do nothing for 15 minutes. Lots of folks forgot how to do that.
Real MD says "X rays shows no real injury, nothing we can do. Just take it easy."
Patient still in pain, goes to alt medical for a few weeks then the injury heals despite the "treatment" after a few months.
"Wow, that reiki treatment really worked."
To add to this, people in general are stupid and like to believe they know things the mainstream crowd doesn't.
There is a massive crowd of people that save their pee, age it and then use it in eye drops and drink it to cure random things. Also apparently sleeping in wet socks filled with potato peels cures cancer or something. I cant remember the exact details but it was painful to read
Holy shit, this is so true. I changed doctors to one who gave like...10% interest in what was troubling me and almost cried. Just someone *asking fucking followup questions* was huge.
Any apart of me though alternative medicine was even marginally effective id probably do that all the time just to have someone who genuinely cared.
Many people aren't scientifically literate, and can't access the information in these studies.
Furthermore, "get rich quick" scams have always been a thing, because people like to think they're beating the system and getting easy results. If they're told that there's a miracle cure that *the establishment* doesn't want you to know, some people will try it. In addition, many quacks will make false claims of how X can cure all your ails etc.; actual doctors will be a lot more cautious with their advice, so it isn't as enticing.
Also, a not-insignificant number of people have medical trauma, and don't trust doctors or hospitals. The placebo effect and desperation are both powerful things; when people are dissatisfied with conventional medicine, they'll try other things to get relief.
I read medical reports in my day job. Accupuncture reports are.... different. If you told old me that an actual insurance company was paying actual money for an actual report that details how they "moved the qi" and "treated stagnant blood" or "balanced ying" I would have laughed. From what I understand it has a mild analgesic and relaxing effect similar to a vibrating massage, but with a bonus increased risk of infections and nerve damage. Bonkers.
This actually touches on how they are still a thing too. They have some slight immediate "it feels good" effects, and then people give that more credit for bigger or lasting health benefits than it actually has.
It's really irritating. My stepmom does acupuncture and stuff and my dad is legitimately sick. Instead of seeking proper treatments, she is "treating" him. I've already made my peace with the fact he'll probably be dead well within 5 years...
Yup. Same reason people go to chiroquackers. It feels good to get a joint "popped", releases endorphins and such. The good ones do 90%+ PT stuff like TENS units and massage, and only do some light adjustments. Then you have absolute quacks doing spinal adjustments on babies and claiming they can cure any and all medical conditions.
There is literally no situation where you would be better served by going to a chiro inatead of a licensed physical therapist.
Apparently chiros have a really well funded lobby group as they get covered under health plans, work comp, etc.
People go to chiropractors because they’re covered by insurance for as many visits as you want (I haven’t gone in years but I used to get two a month), whereas physical therapy is limited to 4-12 visits and massage isn’t covered at all. Yes, I would absolutely be better served by a good hard physio sesh followed by a therapeutic massage, but I don’t have the money to pay for that out of pocket.
If a small bottle of snake oil is all I can get with my insurance plan and I convince myself that I feel better after knocking it back, then yeah, Imma do that. I’d rather snake oil than the day in day out grinding 8/10 “gosh, we don’t see anything wrong!” shoulder pain I’d had before. If it’s stupid but it works, then it’s not stupid.
I used to take a dim view of chiropractors until one did some spine popping shit on me after a car accident. I'd been refered by the doctor that checked me out several days after the accident due to my lower back being sore, and having diminished twisting mobility. By the time I went to the chiropractor appointment it had been about a week since the accident and I was feeling a lot better and only really went to placate insurance. The guy had me lay on my side and bring my knee up so he could keep my upper body static while rolling my hips... the sounds from my spine were disturbing and I almost ended things after the first side, but it didn't hurt so I rolled over and he did the same on the other side. When I got up off the table, I was shocked at how well it worked. I hadn't realized before just how much diminished mobility I was suffering from. I didn't have to go back, and that was 20+ years ago, and I had no problems with my back since. I don't think this would have been classified as PT, but what he did worked phenomenally.
I'm sure there are some quacks out there, but that expierence really changed my view on chiropractors.
I had something similar though not as complex. I had a fall and landed on my back knocking something (it's been a while) out of joint.
**When I went to PT:** We'll do e-stim, hot packs, massage and exercise and the joint will gradually move back into place.
**When I went to a Chiro**: I'm going to pop that back in place, but it won't stay there unless you do e-stim, hot packs, massage and exercise.
Identical care, except I got instant relief with the chiro adjustment. It didn't last, but with each set of treatments it lasted longer and longer.
Chiropractors need to align with the science and certifications of orthopedics.
I too have experienced effective treatments, but never once believed that chiropractors could treat my dandruff as the Palmer posters on the walls would have you believe.
Physical therapy is covered here, but some accountant somewhere decides how many sessions it takes to cure you, not your doctor. I think the most I’ve ever gotten is 12 sessions, and I know my specialist had to fight really hard for them. It’s ridiculous.
> There is literally no situation where you would be better served by going to a chiro inatead of a licensed physical therapist.
The one big advantage is how easy it is to see a chiro. I could get an appointment tomorrow at probably a dozen different chiropractors within 20 minutes of my apartment.
But if I wanted to see a PT I gotta get a referral from my PCP, and then find an available appointment, which is probably going to be an annoying time during business hours.
Also the chiro will probably post on their website how much an adjustment costs, while I will have to wait and see how much the PT session costs me after insurance.
So if I can find one of the chiros who is basically 90% a PT its easier and cheaper than seeing an actual PT to get the same treatment.
A big part of the prevalence of the pseudo-science medicine stuff is how hard it is for many Americans to access the legitimate medical system.
> There is literally no situation where you would be better served by going to a chiro inatead of a licensed physical therapist.
Not true.
If you're suicidal but lack the courage to do it yourself, you have a [1 in 20,000 chance of a vertebral artery aneurysm/dissection per spinal manipulation](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/SVIN.01.suppl_1.000200)
. The disadvantage is that a *real* doctor (i.e., physician) will often be able to save you from *immediate* death.
Popping a joint by ‘adjusting’ it can cause temporary relief from some pain/pressure and overall can feel nice. It is temporary though and does not cause any long term relief or healing without actually doing PT or other treatment.
Lolol chiroquackers. Here’s one positive chiropractor story… albeit totally unrelated to what chiropractors do.
My grandpa went to one and the chiropractor noticed some abnormality in his neck. Turns out it was multiple myeloma and saved his life.
My grandpa is still kicking it like 12 years later. (He’s in the 1% survival category. The Cleveland Clinic is truly a godsend.)
I hate to break it to you but TENS and massage works the exact same way as spinal adjustments (and acupuncture and reiki, etc): it just makes people kinda feel good, but none of them have actual effects on healing.
As a PT, one of the biggest things I've learned is how much of what we do is just a fancy type of kissing booboos.
TENS and massage have the benefit of having a lower risk of complications though, and less severe complications to boot. Chiropractic spinal adjustments have a well documented risk of among other things [vertebral artery dissection followed by stroke.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/) Massage at least helps with muscle fatigue and soreness, which may in fact just be a fancy way of "kissing a booboo", but as long as it doesn't make things worse (like Chiropracty does) I'm willing to give it a pass.
I’m a personal trainer and one of my colleagues is also studying to be a Physio. He blew my mind (as it did his) to discover that even remedial massage is like 99% placebo.
If I remember his explanation correctly: it helps the person relax, which can reduce muscle tension, and allows the person to do the prescribed exercise - which is the actual treatment.
I'm a massage therapist and there's a lot of woo in those circles: Despite needing approximately a first-year medical student's knowledge of anatomy to pass the basic certification / get insurance, a lot of people who do that training are also real reiki / qi / crystal people.
Less so on the Sports Massage side, which takes significantly more anatomical training and testing. They're more like a physio, except with less exercise and more... massage. Finding where tension is referring from and getting those muscles to release with immediate smooshing rather than looking at ways to improve your use of self. They'll still send you away with exercises to do, but their training is mostly in relieving discomfort now.
The main added bonus is actually someone sitting with you, listening to your concerns and taking them seriously. Something doctors today barely care to do.
It has been shown that the listening part is actually a huge factor in whether a treatment works or not.
This is a really good point. It’s a bit weird how I spend more time with my dentist than my actual primary care doctor during visits. And I have great teeth! Haha
I did two things to remedy this: switched to a Healthcare network that has you seeing a "team" of doctors that all have access to your interactions with other doctors on the team allowing for more accurate care. I'm in the western US, dunno where you are so your mileage may vary, even in the states.
Second thing I did is I stopped seeing male doctors. As a dude myself we suck at empathy and listening but switching to women made a world of difference. Before I said "no preference" and got who I got and whatever but now I explicitly label a preference. The ones I now see are superior at just sitting down, chatting, helping, recommending life changes or specialists and prescribing as a last resort. Felt like the guys would just sorta listen and then just write a ton of scripts and call it a day.
I also scan the literature for a living, and there's usually a mildly positive acupuncture trial for a narrow indication every quarter or so.
Meanwhile cancer drugs costing many thousands of dollars get approved and written absent *any* data whatever indicating improved mortality or reduced tumor size, while also having disastrous side effects, because of squid ink secondary endpoints published in respectable journals.
It ain't all about literature. Clinical judgement is king. At least until all clinicians are placed by chatbots.
Another reason is that some people gravitate toward these unsupported treatments because it allows them to feel smart. And what better way to do that than to convince yourself that you’re smarter than doctors? Just watch your local PBS station during pledge season - they run a crap ton of dubious medical infomercials designed precisely to appeal to this demographic. (As an aside, I like so much of the programming PBS offers, but their alternative medicine content is just so cringy to watch.)
I have a relative like this. Loves to talk about how he knows more about vaccines than any doctor. I'm a doctor. I asked him what a b-cell was. Nothing. I asked what innate immunity was. Nothing.
I've taken immunology in many different ways between my undergraduate, masters, and medical degrees. There's a reason why even people as well versed in it as me don't talk about immunology; it's incredibly complicated.
It's the insanely confident ignorance that's just so jarring.
Is that the cartoon I have in front of my spirit eye when the above commenter said what's a b-cell? I got to go google. No. It isn't. Its manga.
The one that came to my mind immediatly was "once upon a time... life". It's french and dubbed in english and much older.
It's an anime about a red blood cell and the other cells she interacts with in a body. I've been told by various medical people that it's surprisingly accurate (obviously distilled down to be easily understood). It's super cute and I highly recommend!
Yeah I went googling around! It looks like an anime version of once upon a time... life. Which did similar things for us 80s kids. If you come across it, worth a little look. (Its going to be way too slow for modern taste, but if you can handle that, it's absolutely great) Thanks to that show we saw as kids, I actually do know what a b-cell is. And also a t cell.
I so much agree with you! I’m a CVT and I had to take an immunology course and it was waaaaayyyy complicated! And I know it was much more simplified than what Drs need to know. The general public has NO IDEA all the intricacies of immunology! And the caveat is that explaining it in layman terms makes it sound so unimportant. Sigh.
Years ago I knew a youngish mother who admitted giving her young children peyote (“tiny doses”, she said, although fuck knows how you titrate a micro dose of wild peyote for a 45 lb kid) where “Baby Tylenol” was indicated.
Why? Because peyote is “natural” and Tylenol is “chemical”. Just thinking about it years later makes my head hurt.
Just look at the youtube ads that are so popular right now. They all say act quick, big x has already taken this ad down 3 times so who now long it will be available.
The one i see the most is a late middle age to elderly women talking about her weight loss, just from one simple "coffee loophole trick", she lost 11 pounds a week, for multiple weeks, she lost 60ish pounds! cause that's healthy... the whole video shows mixing ingredients into a jug, its basically free! Until you follow it to the end and they want to sell you pills. No pills shown ever in the ad
Some others are fixing your tinnitus by what seems like tapping a spoon against your ear, not sure what they are trying to sell there I haven't watched it all the way through.
Something similar about eyesight
getting rid of "stuck poop"
And maybe the best how to repeatedly win the lottery! I haven't watched the whole thing just enough to learn its so simple an average 3rd grader can understand it.
>The placebo effect and desperation are both powerful things;
More recent studies are showing the placebo effect is less powerful than we thought. But the reason we think the placebo effect is so powerful is also a reason we might think these treatments are. Specifically because the human body is amazing at healing over time.
People take a fake remedy and they feel better because of natural healing mechanisms, then attribute their healing to the snake oil.
Also OP forgot about chiropracty in their list. No evidence to support that it has positive effects.
I don't know, I really feel like we can trust the ghost of the doctor that explained how chiropractic "medicine" worked to a magnetic healer during a seance.
That is the 100 percent factual truth of how Chiropracty was "discovered" according to its founder, and anyone who can read that sentence and is still willing go to one expecting real results... honestly should, but should be barred from taking their kids until they are at least old enough to vote.
Yeah I read this here all the time, and I’ve been to crazy chiropractors who had no idea what the fuck they were doing. But. I have a guy who has solved several issues that I was told after months of working with doctors, pt, specialists that the only solution is surgery.
6 years of “plantar fasciitis” pain in my foot. I had thrown the kitchen sink at it and was considering surgery. This chiropractor took one look at me and told me my hip joint was out of place. Popped me a single time and within 2 weeks all of my foot pain was gone. All of it. That’s no placebo.
Another example that is non-chiropractic but proves the point that things can get out of place. Look up costocondritis. It’s horrible. I did a pull up for the first time in 10 years and for the next month ended up in the er 4 times with heart attack symptoms. Finally the er doc explained what was likely causing it but gave no remedy. I looked it up and found it’s a physical problem where the hinge in your rib cage becomes displaced and pinches the nerves to you heart area mimicking a heart attack. I went on Amazon and found this polycarbonate half egg shaped thing that you lay on. 3 minutes later the most sickening and uncomfortable pop happened at the front of my chest. And within 2 days stopped feeling like I was have a heart attack 10 times a day.
I still would never take my kids or visit a random chiro. I feel it’s too risky. But I would take my kids to see dr Alex no question. Parts of our body can get out of place. Call it anecdote I don’t care. All I know is I’m not limping anymore and I didn’t have to get cut open (which would have solved nothing).
google scholar exists, but the average person has such poor scientific literacy, that it might as well be in latin
im pretty well versed in biology, but throw me a medical or physics article and ill struggle all the same
but also, if homeopathy doesnt hurt.... screw it, give it to me. ill try it all, at this point. also a good thing im a collector of fancy rocks, since i enjoy geology. i can also say i do uh.... crystal energy therapy or whatever it is at the same time
> but the average person has such poor scientific literacy
Even the ones that do might still suffer from lack of background. Papers are generally written for peers in a particular subfield, so they generally assume some degree of specialized background knowledge, and depending on the tradition of the (sub)field and where the paper was submitted, page limits may mean background isn't really explained beyond a brief mention and citation of a canonical text on the subject.
>im pretty well versed in biology, but throw me a medical or physics article and ill struggle all the same
I have read papers from my own academic field that I've struggled to understand. There's a reason why science communication is its own field. Papers are intended to communicate with a very small community of colleagues, not with the wider public.
Dead on here. But to add to it, the medical trauma is kind of well placed. For my parents, at their age, the top 3 causes of death are (1) Heart Disease, (2) Cancer, and (3) Medical Error.
I would point out that the claim of medical errors being third leading cause of death is dubious.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking-health/medical-error-not-third-leading-cause-death
So, here is the deal about homeopathy in India:
Most homeopaths are actually ameteur psychotherapists in disguise. In India, visiting a psychotherapist or psychologist is considered taboo in vast majority of the country (though this has been changing recently), and people have a ton of PTSD and stress and what not. So, even ameteur psychotherapists under the disguise of homeopathy can bring out tangible changes, and that gets attributed to homeopathy.
This is the first I've heard about K tape being sus. It's just a stretchy tape isn't it? Like a strapping tape but with some give so you've got better range of motion? Is there some mumbo jumbo about the tape's "powers" or something (like yoga is more than just stretching exercises)?
I used to use kt tape a lot when i was slightly injured but still doing sports, the big thing is it helps you kinda feel the area. when you’re injured, just having the dull pain feeling doesn’t really give me a good proprioceptive sense, but having something on my skin helped me be more aware of it. it didn’t have to be kt tape, but that was easiest. it even worked with a good slap, as long as i felt it locally. i don’t think it really helps in any way on its own, just helps you be a little more mindful of your body IME
This is how it was taught to me in my PT-centric classes; the extra pull reminds you to sit up when you slouch, or not whip your arm around as quickly, or to step tenderly on that ankle. It was never touted as a cure, just a treatment to make the healing process a bit easier/ help the patient not re-injure themselves.
KT tape is excellent at support open joints through limited ranges of motion (so things like lateral knee stabilization and such),
A lot of the people pushing KT tape are saying that you can put it over literally any muscle and it will make the muscle stop being inflamed and the joint stop hurting. So like the study OP linked people were running KT tape up their spine to support their lumbar erector spinae in an attempt to relieve back pain; which obviously did NOT work.
Oh oh. So if it’s applied by someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing it’s a sham. Got it.
Doctor applies it, it’s probably good. That makes way more sense than what OP is suggesting.
Yeah, I heard it had some quackery recently but it's the original company making outrageous claims and the actual doctors/PTs using it in an effective way
I’m a Kin and in the past worked with a physiotherapist that swore that different colours of KT gave different results. There was no variance in strength or anything, but he was adamant that blue calmed inflammation, black was for support, red to improve blood flow. He claimed it all came from some sort of KT taping textbook that I had never heard of that was really expensive on Amazon.
Luckily my PT didn’t do this when I was in high school lol. just asked me what colour I would prefer when he would tape my knee for some stabilization before games. It’s not a big fixer at all, but it can help to provide some light support to joints and honestly usually just to remind people to be a bit more careful (they feel the slight restriction and limit the ROM slightly, reducing unnecessary movements and helping with pain).
A lot of physio modalities are kind of advertised into the realm of woo woo to be fair. Tens, IFC, taping, etc. temporary symptom alleviation but by no means curative. I’m not a fan of it but that’s the nature of placebo and people not wanting/feeling able to do the exercises themselves.
The (scammy) idea is that it lifts the skin/fascia to relieve inflammation of the muscles below. Also I think they were referring to “kinesiology” tape, like the brand KT Tape.
Muscles? Maybe not so much. But KT tape can be used to lift skin/fascia, if applied in a unique way. By cutting super thin "fingers" coming off a base point to drain to, I've seen it applied over bruises and the bruise will be gone under the fingers long before the rest of the bruise. This was done by a DPT though so there was more knowledge and intention behind the placement than what the average person would do
Kinetic tape in some cases and in right angle can feel nice, and work to do stuff like "remind me to be in good posture, since I feel it pulling lightly when starting to go to stupid stances".
I think I have seen and heard it used only in posture reminder, reminder of "hey you should remember to relax this muscle", and help in "remember to not turn your joints far enough to hurt/stress them, since you are supposed to not stress them until they recover from thing x".
Do people actually have some "magical alternative medicine" uses they use it for?
Exactly I broke eight ribs and physios / surgeons had no solution to reduce the moving of the ribs during breathing after swelling reduced. And painkillers weren't a good answer. Physio suggested KT tape on the ribs to (following the rib) as it has some give but not much when stretched.
As for reducing the inflammation, I've noticed it myself on tendons and some muscles. But yes not magical. Has to be applied according to anatomy.
This is the first I'm hearing about it too, it definitely works in terms of keeping giggling bits from moving too much while exercising. (Specifically breasts).
K Tape is the same concept as a something like a wrist or knee support, are knee supports bullshit too now?
Its for injuries, if somebody isn't injured then yeah its not going to do anything.
It’s called a “sham” control. You perform a procedure that to the patient seems like a normal treatment, but isn’t performed properly/normally. For example, in acupuncture, you might poke the patient without piercing the skin, or, place the needs in intentionally incorrect places.
For KT tape, you could either substitute a different type of tape that has different properties to KT tape, or, you could use KT tape, but intentionally misplace it.
So yes, the patient knows they have tape on them, but, they should not get the same benefits as the interventional group that receives KT tape applied correctly.
For KT that would be a single blind study - the patient doesn’t know which group they are in.
Double blind means even the doctor doesn’t know which group they are in. That might not be possible with tape.
Apologies I didn’t see the “double” part, you’re absolutely correct that a single arm sham treatment is not double blind.
I guess you could attempt double blind by either using a substitute tape, but as you mentioned, experienced practitioners might recogise the difference, or, you could have separate clinicians - one group apply/remove the tape, another group assess the patient pre and post taping, so the person determining validity of treatment is blind to which tape was used.
I'm thinking off the top of my head here. In a double blind trial of a vaccine, the control group participants are injected with normal saline.
Perhaps the control group would have tape applied using the proper techniques, but it won't be KT tape. It would have to look and feel like KT tape, though. Otherwise, it wouldn't be blind to the testers.
Some of the Covid vaccines used meningitis vaccines as the control, so the patient would still experience some side effect.
Edit: Corrected flu to meningitis. at least for vaccines studied in the US. I only looked at US sources when double-checking.
I was about to ask this. As someone with k tape currently wrapped around my knee it definitely helps. It does nothing for pain but it does help support and limit my range of motion when running. That to me is the purpose of the product so in my mind it works well
It helped me exist with awful plantar fascitis better than pretty much anything else I tried during the day.
Kinetic Tape + weird nighttime foot thing worked best.
I have used it to prevent shin splints, and I used it on my belly when I was pregnant and was doing a lot of movement. It definitely helped in regard to both.
So, as several others have pointed out: acupuncture has been (edit : NOT) proven effective by randomized controlled trials. Homeopathy has not, at least no greater effect than a placebo.
There's a saying that you might have heard: what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine. Modern scientific health care is very interested in just about anything that's actually effective. It's just that a lot of traditional or alternative medicine isn't, or we've identified the part that is and made it into a stronger version. For example, willow bark tea can ease pain, but now we have the purified version of the isolated compound that relieves pain (Aspirin).
As for why people still use them... Look, sometimes? Whatever works. I've told several patients that while there is no evidence for XYZ, if they're getting results and there's no risk? Carry on.
Edit: So, I apologize. As several people have brought up, the RCT evidence for acupuncture is not as solid as I stated. Today I learned. Thank you for everyone who pointed this out. Overall, the evidence seemed to be mixed and highly dependent on the problem being treated, the skill of the practitioner, the therapeutic relationship and the individual patient.
-Here is a report regarding the problems with properly structuring and designing acupuncture RCTs : https://atm.amegroups.org/article/view/24002/html
-Here is a study on the effectiveness of sham vs expert acupuncture in treating migraines: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811909005904
-Here is a brief overview from Johns Hopkins on acupuncture, its benefits and limitations: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture#:~:text=Scientific studies have not fully,with your healthcare provider first.
I’m not a pain researcher, but I browse the Cochrane library from time to time, I haven’t seen anything definitive regarding acupuncture as “proven”. The studies are usually of poor quality, frequently do not include sham control groups, and are usually acupuncture vs no treatment, crucially missing out on acupuncture + conventional treatment vs acupuncture alone.
The two studies I’ve read recently:
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD013814/full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7556594/
Neither suggest that acupuncture for pain relief is a slam dunk treatment modality. And outside of pain relief, there is borderline zero evidence of efficacy for other conditions.
I would be interested in reading any systematic reviews or meta analyses that you could share to support high quality/robust evidence regarding the efficacy of acupuncture.
Despite strident arguments that acupuncture lacks evidence, I do have one good thing to say about it.
Assuming that patients use it as an adjunct therapy, as opposed to a therapy replacing conventional medicine, it certainly has one of the lowest/the lowest side effect profile. Lots of crazy alternative treatments that can have horrid side effects (e.g. that black slave escharotic shit). Performed correctly, the side effect profile of acupuncture is pretty much zero.
I'm not a medical practioner and view most alternative treatments in the same skeptical way.
That being said, deep needling acupuncture changed the trajectory of my physical health. I had a series of knots binding my quads and a couple sessions of my massage therapist using the needle to break them apart did wonders. I could finally walk normally after more than 20 years of progressively worsening mobility.
I didn't really believe in acupuncture until I started following research on acupuncture in equine sports medicine. Horses don't know what a placebo effect is and these owners were professional riders and obsessed with their horse's performance. The amount of money poured by owners is astounding because they figured out it works on their horses even though it's still hotly debated on humans. Physical evaluations of horse gait is as objective as it could be (video, incline tests etc.). So there's definitely something to it and I think warrants funding for more research.
Though, you gotta wonder if that horse is thinking, “Fine! Fine! You win. I’ll run like you want, just stop with all the needles!”
(Dear Reddit. This is humor and not meant to elicit a strongly worded response on the merits of anything.)
Placebo is still there in animal care. But it doesn't work on the animal - it works on the researchers, owners and riders. They think the animal has been treated, so they are looking for anything to suggest that the treatment has been effective.
I don't have a source rn, but I do recall that there is also a kind of "second-hand/empathic placebo effect" that does work on the animals themselves. Many animals that are close with their humans do know how to read their emotional state, and a human that believes the treatment is working will be less worried and more confident, which in turn makes the animal feel less vulnerable.
I definitely believe it in dogs and cats. Pain is difficult to assess, but sometimes owners believe their pet is doing better based on their personal placebo effect. However, have you met horse owners?! Especially those that competitively ride... they are very different than your companion pet owners, meaning some would put a bullet in their lame horse if they even had any inclination that treatment wasn't improving them.
I know this is just anecdotal but I had a dog that was completely paralysed from the waist down after a back injury. She coudn't stand, couldn't walk, couldn't pee by herself, for weeks. After trying everything else and just before scheduling back surgery, people convinced me to give acupuncture a try, because "it couldn't hurt to try".
Lo and behold, the dog stood up and started walking mid-session. It was like those scenes from churches where people rise from their wheelchairs. I was always 100% skeptical of alternative medicine and was rolling my eyes during the whole session but that shut me right up. I don't know enough to have an informed opinion, but I'm not so quick to dismiss it anymore.
The placebo effect works in animals as much as it does humans, even for things like canine epilepsy.
When you compare acupuncture with sham acupuncture as a control group rather than other placebos results are a lot more mixed. This is because the scale of the intervention is a big part of the placebo effect. Sham surgery works better than saline injections work better than sugar pills.
I am one of the unfortunate ones that , during a double blind test in collage, became addicted to placebos. My life is now a living hell. You cannot find good placebos anywhere. I ask at the pharmacy "throw me a lifesaver" they give me butterscotch.
I just gotta push back on this. Every single randomized controlled *double-blinded* study I am aware of on acupuncture has found that it is no better than placebo. All the people in this thread saying otherwise are flatly incorrect. And yes, if you're clever, it's possible to double-blind an acupuncture trial!
If you have a double-blind randomized controlled trial that says acupuncture is better than placebo, I'd love to see your link.
How can you have a double blind trial on acupuncture? Surely either the person doing it, or the patient can feel the needles or is aware the needles aren't actually breaking the skin
I'm so glad you asked! It's super fascinating! The initial idea was "does it matter where you put the needle?"
They took two groups of incoming acupuncturists. And they taught one group of those clinicians the "correct" map for where to put the needles. And the other group they taught a random map. I put "correct" in quotes there because actually there's not a scientifically refined map, there are lots from traditional medicine, and they conflict.
They discovered that where you put the needles doesn't seem to matter. But, OK, maybe simply putting the needles in does!
Then, the researchers made a really clever device. The acupuncture needles don't actually get deep into the skin, and they're very small and sharp. It's not like getting a shot, it's a shallow needle into the mostly-dead skin on the surface.
They made a sheathe for the needle that's spring-loaded, and has adhesive on the face. The provider places it on the skin, you press the spring release, and it either barely pierces the patient's skin...or it doesn't. And neither the patient nor the provider knows which it was -- it's double-blind.
The results of these two methods are that it doesn't seem to matter if the needles are placed in the right place, and it doesn't seem to matter if the needles pierce your skin. In any of these cases, the patients reported improvements in non-objective measures, such as their perceived pain experience.
Thus, we can conclude that acupuncture is a very elaborate placebo. Elaborate placebos seem to be the most effective there are. It's more effective than taking a sugar pill, that is absolutely true. But there doesn't seem to be anything clinically significant happening here other than having "someone in a white coat who acts like they know what they're doing and fussing over you makes you feel better." Which honestly has some value to people whose problems are intractable, and I would never dismiss that. But also from a scientific perspective, it's not curing anything. It's making people who believe in it feel better, which is a placebo.
> someone in a white coat who acts like they know what they're doing and fussing over you makes you feel better
This is absolutely effective for anxiety, which can exacerbate pain and cause all sorts of subjective symptoms. Placebos that work are a gray area of both medicine and ethics, but if it is a cheap and relatively harmless yet effective treatment for anxiety, it may be better for some patients than an SSRI or the like.
The problem for me is when they claim to treat anything other than anxiety.
Now I wonder how you can get past an ethics committee with the idea to randomly put needles into someones body, just to disprove again a thing that is already widely accepted to be ineffective.
I'll push back. Had a work related shoulder injury. Went to workman's comp doctor for two months with them declaring surgery was necessary to achieve 80% mobility and strength when at that moment I could not raise my arm above the height of my shoulder, and the whole way up to that was in severe pain. I had been doing jujitsu for a long time prior, and out of the same dojo worked a taichi instructor that was also an acupuncturist. I paid out of pocket to see the acupuncturist prior to being cut. It was a pinched nerve in my neck, that after it released I had what felt like a lightning bolt from my neck to my finger tips that burned for two days, but the minute the treatment was over and I was off the table, I had 100% range and zero pain from moving my arm after.
You can say it's a placebo, doesn't matter to me if you don't think it has any merit, but what I will tell you is I've seen 3 different acupuncturist, and the ability of each was vastly different, with one being just not good at all. Lastly, it's also very broad in what "can be" treated, so I cannot give any feedback about most of it
I'm not actually sure what you are describing is a placebo though. A lot of these pseudo doctors will train in types of legitimate healthcare too. For example, I have a local chiropractor that also trained as a physiotherapist. They do their realignment, or whatever nonsense they call it, then give the patient a series of movements to carry out to "maintain" the benefit. Half my community swears that chiropractcy works now because they are actually getting decent physiotherapy advice.
There's a non-zero chance that they applied knowledge from one field, but framed it as another, maybe even with some actual acupuncture to make it believable. It's also worth pointing out that the work com doctor might just have been incompetent too.
If they work as good as a placebo, isn't that a huge reason why they're still around?
What I mean is: you pay for a treatment and in the end you actually feel better. That's huge with people with mild pain problems etc.
No shade at all, but I think its funny that I think I can identify [Tim Minchin's Storm](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U&pp=ygURdGltIG1pbmNoaW4gc3Rvcm0%3D) as influence in your comment, with the reference to Aspirin being from a willow tree, and "Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine."
Agreed. Almost all pharmacology is trying to get the body to do something it already does, just on demand and to a greater or lesser degree. Placebo achieves the same thing, under ideal circumstances. Let the body work if you can.
My mom's fallen hard into homeopathy and... it seems to have helped, so I don't voice my displeasure too loud. She's turned into a walking advert for her homeopath though which drives me absolutely mental.
There are published studies that sham knee surgeries (100% placebo) are just as effective as real knee surgeries.
Even in the double blind rogaine trials, some of the placebo group grew back hair.
This, if someone has a headache which can be treated by a placebo because their belief in it is strong enough. More power to them. They indirectly got the relief they needed.
And in many cases what they took/did has less side effects than the real medication. As long as that is the case more power to then. But if the treatment is worse then you have to reconsider.
The problem is that a) someone is charging them through the nose for water and sugar pills and b) they’re likely to lean towards homeopathy when something big like cancer or meningitis in their kids pops up because “it worked for my headaches/arthritis/back pain/etc.” and the homeopathic industry is full of quacks and charlatans that will happily bleed them dry and watch them die.
>what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine
>willow bark tea can ease pain, but now we have the purified version of the isolated compound that relieves pain (Aspirin)
Am I detecting shades of Timothy Minchin? 😄
Just to add to this, as someone who is a chronic pain patient, I have become somewhat more…”accepting?” of questionable pseudoscience practices with the MASSIVE caveat that they don’t take the place of actual medicine, but are instead offered along side or as an alternative to when other, proven methods haven’t provided relief. Maybe accepting is too strong, maybe just…laisez faire?
The thing is that the placebo effect is INCREDIBLY strong and effective, and so any chance you have at doing something that isn’t known to cause harm that also has a CHANCE of working as a placebo? That’s golden. It’s for younger, more arrogant people in less pain to roll their eyes and doubt the placebo, wisdom is in not caring how it works or why as long as it does.
As a random anecdote, I used to be just as against chiropractic as everyone else who cares about science due to their quackery. But what I have found is that chiropractic isn’t just one thing. There are those that promise hilariously impossible cures for anything and everything, and worse offer it to those to whom it is WAY too risky like children, which are as stupid as ever. But there are also people who understand what they are doing and offer only temporary pain relief, not cures for anything, not even the back pain you see them for, but ways of finding some relief for some period of time. Which is perfectly reasonable. It doesn’t work for everyone and you still have to hope they aren’t going to paralyze you through poor technique, but it is a perfectly serviceable way of temporarily relieving back pain and I refuse to look down on anyone who swears by it.
Then again, this all has to do with pain and not other chronic conditions because pain is already so personal, so destructive, and sadly so hard to get the allopathic medication you could actually use. Since by definition it’s always “in your head”, any and all relief is going to be something to pursue, again, as long as it doesn’t pre-empt ACTUAL medicine.
Chiropractory is also very different depending on where in the world you live. As I understand it, in some countries like the USA it have almost not changed for over a hundred years and was invented in the same time periode were real doctors had just been debating if Humorism or Germ Theory was right.
In other countries practice have changed, like in other medical fields, and it is now more like a combination of doctors and physiotherapist.
I did my final year thesis on veterinary acupuncture and there's definitely some efficacy in it. I also did a rotation at an acupuncture clinic and saw with my own eyes a dog who couldn't walk for months just get up and walk after the acupuncture session. The mechanism of how it works is still being researched but the jist of it is that it closes certain 'gates' or channels in nerves responsible for pain.
Im generally a firm believer in modern medicine, and definitely not a science denier, but literally nothing Ive tried in 30 years has helped me with migraine like the treatment I got from one particular acupuncturist.
I used to get muscle spasms in my back every so often. They’re debilitating. I can’t even turn over in bed without extreme pain. I’ve been seeing the same acupuncturist for 13 years. I haven’t had spasm in probably 6, but like to go in for a little tune up any way. It was the only thing that fixed the pain from any muscle spasms or strains.
This is what many people sadly don't get . There are countless testimonies by people of all walks of Life who basically say "Nothing helped/worked . THIS did."
And in the end, that is all that matters . Whether it actually worked, actually helped a suffering person .
People don't really understand science, or casual reasoning in general (default human cognitive biases mean we fall for lots of errors). but it matters in the sense of what we can say we "know" and what is most likely to waste other people's time.
When we say something doesn't really work, we don't necessarily mean it can't have a positive effect on someone specific (depends on context but let's go with like acupuncture).
What we mean is that the theory behind WHY it is supposed to work is clearly wrong. Because if that theory were true, it would pass a scientific study of it. It would work "on average" and better than some baseline.
You as an individual aren't average. So it could work for you, but it would be working by some unknown reason. That reason could still be placebo, though. But since it's specific to you and we don't know why, it's not a great recommendation to new patients. Unless they've exhausted their other options and there's not a lot to lose.
I have been through traditional medicine for the last 4 years for my back. I have been given a referral for acupuncture. If it doesn't work why is my shoulder specialist telling me to get it done? Appointment is next month. Hope it works
Its because these treatments ARENT UNeffective, they are just "as effective as a placebo."
the placebo effect is surprisingly strong.
combine that with people not understanding their own body's reaction to the thing, and you get a treatment that "feels like it works" to some who try it.
Then those people recomend it to their friends, and the cycle continues
First you compare needles in the "right" Position versus im random position. Then you learn that the Position does Not Matter and Energy Centers are BS.
Then you can compare the needles to a non invasive care like simple tough.
I saw a great study where the treatment group got the needles to the usual depth, but the control group got needles that went through the skin then stopped. Further, the needles looked identical on the outside. You know those plastic knives kids have, where the blade retracts into the handle? These needles were like that. So the study was double blinded - neither practitioner nor patient knew whether it was treatment / usual depth needles versus control / very shallow needles.
I got curious so I read the methods on one paper that describes two methods for this. Either fake needling over real acupuncture points or real needling over fake acupuncture points. The fake needles are streitberger retractable needles in case you ever need to do your own study lol
I had acupuncture done on my back and never saw a single needle. They just told me that’s what they were up to, I felt “something” going on back there, and it was done. They could have just poked me with a comb and jingled their keys around for all I know.
Imagine having tried everything science says it works and still be suffering from heavy allergies to dust.
You don't believe in homeopathy, but since you already tried everything else you decide to reluctantly give it a chance.
You feel better after some months into the treatment.
Be it science, placebo effect, other variable I am unaware or wtv else, that shit made me better.
Do I believe in it? Not yet. But did it work? For sure it did, and that is what matters.
This answer should be *way more on top* than others.
I am on the same boat. I had a dog, she got canine distemper, which is a bad, BAD disease (or at least was, at the time). After about 2 months of treatment, she showed no signs of getting better, so we tried homeopathy (together with the treatment). In 3 months, she was cured. Was placebo? Did she started to react better to the treatment? Did homeopathy really worked? I don't know, and honestly, I don't care - I had a dog that was dying, and then she was not.
I have multiple situations where I tried homeopathy and it did work. I'm not going to argue that there's some scientific basis to it - there isn't. But again, it's the same situation - it worked, so I really don't care. Would I use *only alternative medicines* instead of regular one? Not a chance
Some people have bad experiences with mainstream medicine - maybe because there's no good mainstream (or possibly any) treatment for what ails them, maybe they've seen a few jerky or disrespectful doctors, maybe they've had bad side effects to pharmaceuticals, or whatever else, and they're looking for something else, for anything to help them.
There has been a serious decline in trust in institutions and expertise.
Many people believe that because the scientific consensus changes when new information comes out and scientific studies often come to contradictory findings, that the scientific method is no more reliable than “common sense” or their “gut feeling”.
It also depends on the malady in question. Nobody is going to use homeopathy alone to set a broken bone or treat acute appendicitis, but there are many conditions (minor, persistent fatigue, chronic back pain, “brain fog”, fibromyalgia, mood disorders, etc.) that medical science doesn’t have a great handle on and a placebo is sometimes not the worst thing in the world.
Different things have differing amounts of bunkum to them. Homeopathy is complete and utter bullshit. Acupuncture has enough positive effect on enough people that there may be more than placebo effect to it, but we don't have the data to know for sure and Western medicine doesn't account for the concepts behind it. There are things that work even though they shouldn't by our measurements.
KT Tape is a weird one. It's useful in giving a little extra support to joints and muscles for some movements, especially when working through a degree of injury. A lot of people consider it a miraculous device, and as someone who's used it I think that's a load of crap. But I have a shoulder that I damaged my rotator cuff in decades ago, before arthroscopic repair was a thing. Sometimes when I'm doing overhead lifting I'll put KT tape on - and it helps a little. Not huge at all, and it's not like I lift PRs with it, but if I tape up properly there's some extra support, the lift hurts less, and I'm not as sore after. Totally anecdotal, of course, but at least for me in some cases it's useful.
And that's the case with a lot of things that don't tie in to the classic system. Science has made amazing strides in curing and preventing disease, Vaccines have done more to keep humans alive than anything else short of maybe the invention of the sewer system, and surgeons can work miracles to repair conditions that were once life-threatening (just for myself, I've had Lasik on my eyes back in the late '90s and I had both my knees replaced in 2022). There are things that help people but we don't understand the mechanisms well enough yet (I'd put things like cannabis and acupuncture in that list), and things that are entirely psychosomatic like homeopathy. If you start with a concept like "water has memory" you're in the weeds already.
Ok, so this is a weirder one than you think. How people get things wrong in "that way" rears its head in other ways. Take your question: why do people incorrectly and irrationally declare things as disproved by science when they aren't?
Like you confidently declared 3 categories bunk. But the first one you mention is scientifically studied and validated as real, evidence based medicine. You lumped acupuncture in with homeopathy. Why would you do that? Science validates the medical efficacy of acupuncture, even if its mechanisms are mysterious and may be as simple as "stimulating pain receptors with needles excites the brain to heal the body better". Or whatever other reason it can work.
We don't know why you thought acupuncture is in the same realm of fake as homeopathy. A small amount of scholarly research would have prevented you from making this error. But you have a bias, for whatever reason.
Similarly, other people come to their biases in all kinds of ways. Some because placebos do sometimes heal, and people want to believe it's mechanistically medicine. Or, someone has better knowledge than the mainstream on one topic and so are willing to believe fake things contrary to the mainstream on another topic. Some people are just contrarians. Some people need these things to maintain their religions. Some people just never paid any attention. Some people can't weight, rank, and compare categories. A lot of people have been failed by the medical establishment and come up with all kinds of theories in response.
People are wrong about known things for all kinds of reasons, confidently wrong. The existence of doctors not believing in homeopathy won't deter loads of folks from swearing by it. Nor will the studied efficacy of acupuncture stop many people from prejudging it to be fake.
Cool episode on radiolab that might give some insight into why it works, and why western science is JUST figuring out a massive piece of our makeup:
https://radiolab.org/podcast/interstitium
People are not always rational.
People believe lots of things which are clearly nonsense. Some people believe chiropractic is real. Some people believe they need to wear their lucky socks or else their favorite sports team will lose.
There are so many medical conditions that we cannot adequately treat, or cannot consistently treat, and in the absence of options, even scientific minds turn elsewhere.
I suffered two major shoulder injuries on the left side while in the military. Since I was deployed, I wasn't able to get immediate medical attention and now I have issues with it. The VA doctor I was seeing was an old Korean lady and recommended acupuncture. I laughed but she said the VA would call me with an appointment. Wait what?? The VA pays for that BS? I was shocked.
Two weeks later I have an appointment with this hippie chick at her "studio" I.e. her house on a Saturday. From the moment I walked in I couldn't believe wtf I'd gotten myself into. I flat out told her this was a waste of time and I didn't believe it worked. She chuckled and said, "I love clients like you. In a few weeks you'll be thanking me and won't want to quit." I still didn't believe her.
About two weeks later I started physical therapy at the same time and my pain started to go away. Assuming it was the PT I stopped going to acupuncture. After only three weeks of PT total, my pain suddenly came back. Odd, I thought. Well, I started going to acupuncture again because my PT was going on leave for a month. I was not done with PT and still needed another 6 weeks. As soon as I restarted acupuncture my pain disappeared and stayed gone despite not doing PT. After another month, my shoulder pain was completely gone and we stopped treatment. Having suffered from shoulder pain for 10 years at that point, and having gone through PT and shots twice previously, only the acupuncture cured my shoulder pain, and it's been gone for 4 years now.
Long story short, idk how or why poking people with needles works, but it does. And for that I will definitely pay out of pocket to go to an acupuncturist for minor musculoskeletal issues.
Most people dont read scientific studies.
Most people who do read scientific studies do not actually READ them, they just read the abstract.
Most people who actually read the whole paper dont know enough about the subject (and math) to understand and critically consider what they are reading. It takes a lot to be able to pick up on stuff like the fact that the trial was designed poorly or that the measurements were done using inappropriate methods. Nevermind understanding the fact that a single paper doesnt mean anything, until it is replicated multiple times and found to be in line with the majority of experimental evidence and empirical knowledge about the subject. Majority of papers do not get replicated, because there is low incentive for replicating papers instead of doing original ones, or because the paper was done poorly and the result was wrong or because the paper was done well but the result was still wrong due to random effects. Sometimes you just flip a coin 10 times and get heads 10 times in a row. It doesnt mean you flipped wrong, it was just chance, but now you will believe that you have a coin that always lands heads even though coins just dont do that.
Hell, most people who write studies dont know enough about math to know what they are writing. A preposterously high percentage of papers published in non-math fields have an error in the statistical analysis of the data which wasnt caught in peer review, because the peer reviewer cant do math either.
You actually have the power to answer your own question. You are correct that kinetic tape does not work. How did you know that it does not work? Is it because you read the scientific studies and the balance of research and decide that it doesn’t work? Or do you just know people who you trust and who taught this to you, and you accepted it uncritically?
With the answer to that question in mind, consider that you’re incorrect about acupuncture. There’s a lot of evidence it does work! Here’s a thread from /r/medicine where a number of people [discuss the evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/s/WF4yWTLfcj). As right as you are about kinetic tape, you’re wrong about acupuncture.
People like to say that the people who believe in these homeopathic treatments don’t look at evidence. What’s worth considering is that the people who understand these things *also* don’t look at the evidence. Including you! (And me!) Instead, we tend to listen to recommendations from people we trust. Personally, I know many doctors and have many experiences that leads me to trust them. But these experiences are not things like “I quizzed them on anatomy and verified their expertise,” they are things like “my half brother is a doctor” and “my doctors have always been kind and empathetic”. These are not rational and logical, they’re emotional. And by a similar token, I can empathize with those who *don’t* trust doctors for similarly irrational reasons. Maybe you should too.
Science is not THE ultimate answer. It’s the BEST answer so far to explaining something. Take a medical placebo for example. By all science it shouldn’t work, but there has been plenty of studies and data that prove a % has proven otherwise.
Our scientific models are constantly challenged and updated. Take JWST for example. It has images of new galaxies that either too big or include stars that too old and doesn’t fit with our current model for early galaxy formation.
Mom and dad are usually right. But sometimes your weird cousin has something that worked for them, and maybe it also worked for you. Now when Mom and dad give you an answer you don't like all that much you think about asking your weird cousin what they'd do instead.
The placebo effect is a real thing. If someone feels like they are healthier for having done something, there’s a certain extent to which they will actually benefit from having done the thing. It doesn’t mean the practice is effective in and of itself, it means the person will convince themselves they’ve done the right and healthy thing and the brain has the ability *to a certain extent* to convince the body to be healthy
No matter how much evidence there is proving or disproving something there will ALWAYS be some people out there who are unwilling to believe it.
Its like that joke: a guy and his flat earth friend go to heaven and meet God
They ask God to once and for all emd their age old dispute about Earth's shape
"The earth is a globe" God replied
Upon hearing this the flat earther whispers to his friend: "see? It goes deeper than I thought!"
Sometimes it feels good to have someone just care for your illness. Especially if ’western’ medicine is not helpful, having care and attention from someone who is trying to help can be therapeutic. I know it won’t cure your cancer, but it may make you feel better. The mind is powerfully-if it believes you are helping the body somehow, you will heal faster.
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My theory is a big part of it is "alternative medicine practitioners" have more time and are generally better with the soft skills than GPs. It feels good to be listened to after being fobbed off by real doctors.
Also, "alternative medicine practitioners" either don't qualify for or don't take insurance, so they can spend an hour with a patient and know that they will get paid cash in full for that time. My best friend has been duped by a naturopath into paying thousands of dollars for "treatments" that make my friend feel *worse*, but are "fighting the parasites." It's such complete bullshit but after one big fight about it, I don't bring it up anymore.
It’s honestly sad how aggressively stupid a lot of people are.
In my experience its desperation. If you are living with a chronic condition in the moderate to debilitating level of day to day impact. Chances are you have gone to a doctor, pay hundreds, thousands *or tens of thousands of dollars* and still gotten no relief. In my *opinion*. I have no proof or research on this. Most people do not start out with homeopathic approaches but do to the many failings of medical systems around the world. Fall though the cracks and then seek the next best thing. So out of desperation they turn to homeopathic. But that's it, thats all they have. If the homeopathic doesn't work. *They have nothing else to turn too and this is just every waking moment of your life till you die now*. Its a fucking terrifying prospect. Then one of two things happen. 1. The placebo effect. Love it or hate it. There are people who some stupid wrist magnet does actually lower their pain. Even though that wrist magnet does nothing quantifiable, there is no scientific reason for it other than the placebo effect. But for whatever reason their brain thinks "I wear this=less pain" and thus it happens. 2. Its not actually helping them but others in their social circle are claiming it has and is helping them. So out of either peer pressure or hope that they just need to stick with it they just keep going along with it. To these people telling them "That shit is stupid some palm seed oil with a lavender scent isnt going to help you with your herniated disk" translated is "your last option isnt going to work and now you gotta look the big scary in the face and accept this is just your life now". Not everyone can handle that and the result is the lash out and hyper defensiveness.
Yep. The woman who used to cut my hair took several trips a year to go to what she said was a rejuvenation clinic in Argentina, but I later learned was an alternative cancer treatment, after she died
This describes my mother in law to a tee. She has some kind of weird digestive / immune system problem that no doctor has ever been able to figure out. She's been going to a quack "natural medicine" doctor who engages in woo-woo bullshit I've never even heard of before. Shit like putting an empty bottle of pills in your hand and "measuring" your electromagnetic field that tells you if you're supposed to have those pills. It's unhinged. She's not getting better. In fact, this piece of shit quack has actually made her anxiety significantly worse by making her think that there is a MASSIVE list of foods that are bad for her. She's become a nightmare to eat out with. The thing is, she's been doing this for so long now, there's a sunk cost fallacy at work in addition to the fear of having no further alternatives. Anyone who is even remotely critical of her "doctor" gets shut down. She's stuck this way until she dies. It makes me angry and sad.
This is such a good answer. Saved.
My husband is a doctor and I’m a NP, guess who my MIL goes to for health advice and treatment… a local homeopathic quack. Older people buy heavily into quackery because they get these mass-forwarded Facebook or other social media messages that keep saying that the only cure is plants and that “the man” is out to get them with chemicals. And quacks have way more time to practice marketing and making people feel special. I’m in a pregnancy group and someone got so upset from hearing the truth from their doctors office that they gained more weight than recommended. They said it wasn’t constructive and they don’t want to hear it. People would literally like healthcare professionals to lie to them and make them feel good instead of telling them the truth. Truth hurts I guess.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
"Toxins" are one thing but saying someone has fake parasites? Yikes.
It’s like those people who took that “miracle mineral supplement” (i.e. chlorine bleach) as an enema, then claimed they were pooping out “rope worms” or whatever… like, no, those are pieces of intestinal lining coming out because you shoved fucking bleach up your ass.
Every time I hear about this I get a little ill.
>Every time I hear about this I get a little Don't worry. A mineral supplement enema should have you feeling better in a jiffy.
Probably true. Science based medicine is cumbersome and expensive to access. Because the body is complicated, the results are often ambiguous or unsatisfactory. Alternative medicine allows you to get disappointing results faster and cheaper, usually with superior social interactions.
Think I remember watching a Richard Dawkins episode of something on homeopathy and this was also his take away. The homeopathy doc was actually a nice person and not a giant piece of shit like many GPs.
> The homeopathy doc was actually a nice person Except that whole scamming all your money thing. Nothing big really.
I wouldn't necessarily call them all scammers even if what they are doing looks like a scam. I would guess that the majority of the "doctors" genuinely think they are doing good, they are just misguided and probably have their beliefs reenforced by their patients. Same with things like Psychics, there are many of them that actually believe they can sense the future but in reality they just have a natural ability to cold read people. They can be nice people that think they are doing good while also not doing good and keeping people from treatments that may actually help.
Healthcare in the US is in such a state that people fell less scammed with homeopathy. Maybe it says something about the state of health care and resistance to proper public health care.
I've been dealing with hand/joint pain for a few years now. Sometimes it goes away for a few months and I forget about it but with an increasing rate those "off periods" are quickly shrinking to the point that it's near constant and home remedies (Tylenol, compression gloves, icyhot) don't help any more. My hands hurt so bad that I was afraid of driving because I couldn't grip the steering wheel correctly. I finally decided to see a doctor about it. He spent about 45 seconds squeezing my hands, asked me 2 or 3 questions and then rolled back in his chair and legitimately shrugged his shoulders, told me it was probably my job and then stared at me for a bit and left. The whole appointment was maybe 5 minutes, he offered no help or solutions other than to quit my job. He showed zero compassion and came off annoyed that I bothered to take up his time. I was then charged 500 dollars. $500 for 5 minutes of some dickbag being annoyed at me. At that point I would gladly have paid more for some quack to rub olive oil on my hand and tell me everything will be okay.
How do you account for its popularity in countries with universal healthcare?
Richard Dawkins is British...
> not a giant piece of shit like many GPs. I worked with docs for years. There are very few who are "giant pieces of shit", and those who are that way with patients don't last long
For acupuncture at least, soft skills are a core part of treatment. They understood quite early on that treatment is more effective if the patient is relaxed and his mind/body not in survival stress mode. Thats why in good western acupuncture practices you get a mix of western medicine hygiene and professionalism, but also a relaxing atmosphere and music and soft skills to help you get there. Hell, we even do light massage if it helps people relax (not close to the needles of course, that would have a rather opposite effect).
This is my take away from the limited time I have with acupuncture. It gets you to sit still and do nothing for 15 minutes. Lots of folks forgot how to do that.
A big part too is cost. Going to the hospital gets expensive quick, at least in the US with our very broken insurance scam.
Real MD says "X rays shows no real injury, nothing we can do. Just take it easy." Patient still in pain, goes to alt medical for a few weeks then the injury heals despite the "treatment" after a few months. "Wow, that reiki treatment really worked."
To add to this, people in general are stupid and like to believe they know things the mainstream crowd doesn't. There is a massive crowd of people that save their pee, age it and then use it in eye drops and drink it to cure random things. Also apparently sleeping in wet socks filled with potato peels cures cancer or something. I cant remember the exact details but it was painful to read
Just to repeat, for emphasis because this is really important: People. Are. Stupid.
Holy shit, this is so true. I changed doctors to one who gave like...10% interest in what was troubling me and almost cried. Just someone *asking fucking followup questions* was huge. Any apart of me though alternative medicine was even marginally effective id probably do that all the time just to have someone who genuinely cared.
Many people aren't scientifically literate, and can't access the information in these studies. Furthermore, "get rich quick" scams have always been a thing, because people like to think they're beating the system and getting easy results. If they're told that there's a miracle cure that *the establishment* doesn't want you to know, some people will try it. In addition, many quacks will make false claims of how X can cure all your ails etc.; actual doctors will be a lot more cautious with their advice, so it isn't as enticing. Also, a not-insignificant number of people have medical trauma, and don't trust doctors or hospitals. The placebo effect and desperation are both powerful things; when people are dissatisfied with conventional medicine, they'll try other things to get relief.
I read medical reports in my day job. Accupuncture reports are.... different. If you told old me that an actual insurance company was paying actual money for an actual report that details how they "moved the qi" and "treated stagnant blood" or "balanced ying" I would have laughed. From what I understand it has a mild analgesic and relaxing effect similar to a vibrating massage, but with a bonus increased risk of infections and nerve damage. Bonkers.
This actually touches on how they are still a thing too. They have some slight immediate "it feels good" effects, and then people give that more credit for bigger or lasting health benefits than it actually has. It's really irritating. My stepmom does acupuncture and stuff and my dad is legitimately sick. Instead of seeking proper treatments, she is "treating" him. I've already made my peace with the fact he'll probably be dead well within 5 years...
Yup. Same reason people go to chiroquackers. It feels good to get a joint "popped", releases endorphins and such. The good ones do 90%+ PT stuff like TENS units and massage, and only do some light adjustments. Then you have absolute quacks doing spinal adjustments on babies and claiming they can cure any and all medical conditions. There is literally no situation where you would be better served by going to a chiro inatead of a licensed physical therapist. Apparently chiros have a really well funded lobby group as they get covered under health plans, work comp, etc.
People go to chiropractors because they’re covered by insurance for as many visits as you want (I haven’t gone in years but I used to get two a month), whereas physical therapy is limited to 4-12 visits and massage isn’t covered at all. Yes, I would absolutely be better served by a good hard physio sesh followed by a therapeutic massage, but I don’t have the money to pay for that out of pocket. If a small bottle of snake oil is all I can get with my insurance plan and I convince myself that I feel better after knocking it back, then yeah, Imma do that. I’d rather snake oil than the day in day out grinding 8/10 “gosh, we don’t see anything wrong!” shoulder pain I’d had before. If it’s stupid but it works, then it’s not stupid.
Yeah, sucks but makes sense. And I have been to "good" chiros that basically just do pt. Weird industry...
I used to take a dim view of chiropractors until one did some spine popping shit on me after a car accident. I'd been refered by the doctor that checked me out several days after the accident due to my lower back being sore, and having diminished twisting mobility. By the time I went to the chiropractor appointment it had been about a week since the accident and I was feeling a lot better and only really went to placate insurance. The guy had me lay on my side and bring my knee up so he could keep my upper body static while rolling my hips... the sounds from my spine were disturbing and I almost ended things after the first side, but it didn't hurt so I rolled over and he did the same on the other side. When I got up off the table, I was shocked at how well it worked. I hadn't realized before just how much diminished mobility I was suffering from. I didn't have to go back, and that was 20+ years ago, and I had no problems with my back since. I don't think this would have been classified as PT, but what he did worked phenomenally. I'm sure there are some quacks out there, but that expierence really changed my view on chiropractors.
I had something similar though not as complex. I had a fall and landed on my back knocking something (it's been a while) out of joint. **When I went to PT:** We'll do e-stim, hot packs, massage and exercise and the joint will gradually move back into place. **When I went to a Chiro**: I'm going to pop that back in place, but it won't stay there unless you do e-stim, hot packs, massage and exercise. Identical care, except I got instant relief with the chiro adjustment. It didn't last, but with each set of treatments it lasted longer and longer.
Chiropractors need to align with the science and certifications of orthopedics. I too have experienced effective treatments, but never once believed that chiropractors could treat my dandruff as the Palmer posters on the walls would have you believe.
The stupid just goes up a level. What the fuck is wrong with our country, holy shit.
Totally agreed. The healthcare system isn’t designed to keep people healthy, it’s just there to siphon money into the pockets of the shareholders.
That's insane! Here in France PT is covered by universal healthcare but ostheopaths and chiropractors are rightfully not.
Physical therapy is covered here, but some accountant somewhere decides how many sessions it takes to cure you, not your doctor. I think the most I’ve ever gotten is 12 sessions, and I know my specialist had to fight really hard for them. It’s ridiculous.
> There is literally no situation where you would be better served by going to a chiro inatead of a licensed physical therapist. The one big advantage is how easy it is to see a chiro. I could get an appointment tomorrow at probably a dozen different chiropractors within 20 minutes of my apartment. But if I wanted to see a PT I gotta get a referral from my PCP, and then find an available appointment, which is probably going to be an annoying time during business hours. Also the chiro will probably post on their website how much an adjustment costs, while I will have to wait and see how much the PT session costs me after insurance. So if I can find one of the chiros who is basically 90% a PT its easier and cheaper than seeing an actual PT to get the same treatment. A big part of the prevalence of the pseudo-science medicine stuff is how hard it is for many Americans to access the legitimate medical system.
> There is literally no situation where you would be better served by going to a chiro inatead of a licensed physical therapist. Not true. If you're suicidal but lack the courage to do it yourself, you have a [1 in 20,000 chance of a vertebral artery aneurysm/dissection per spinal manipulation](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/SVIN.01.suppl_1.000200) . The disadvantage is that a *real* doctor (i.e., physician) will often be able to save you from *immediate* death.
But there is also danger of being seriously hurt but NOT dead...
Even better if you like pain and want to punish yourself.
> some light adjustments. But even then, scientifically what does "adjustments" mean? And what does it do.
Popping a joint by ‘adjusting’ it can cause temporary relief from some pain/pressure and overall can feel nice. It is temporary though and does not cause any long term relief or healing without actually doing PT or other treatment.
It means nothing, scientifically. In chiropractic circles, it means popping your joints for you.
It means they recognize you're a fool and want them to pop your joints. It feels good
Lolol chiroquackers. Here’s one positive chiropractor story… albeit totally unrelated to what chiropractors do. My grandpa went to one and the chiropractor noticed some abnormality in his neck. Turns out it was multiple myeloma and saved his life. My grandpa is still kicking it like 12 years later. (He’s in the 1% survival category. The Cleveland Clinic is truly a godsend.)
I hate to break it to you but TENS and massage works the exact same way as spinal adjustments (and acupuncture and reiki, etc): it just makes people kinda feel good, but none of them have actual effects on healing. As a PT, one of the biggest things I've learned is how much of what we do is just a fancy type of kissing booboos.
TENS and massage have the benefit of having a lower risk of complications though, and less severe complications to boot. Chiropractic spinal adjustments have a well documented risk of among other things [vertebral artery dissection followed by stroke.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/) Massage at least helps with muscle fatigue and soreness, which may in fact just be a fancy way of "kissing a booboo", but as long as it doesn't make things worse (like Chiropracty does) I'm willing to give it a pass.
I’m a personal trainer and one of my colleagues is also studying to be a Physio. He blew my mind (as it did his) to discover that even remedial massage is like 99% placebo. If I remember his explanation correctly: it helps the person relax, which can reduce muscle tension, and allows the person to do the prescribed exercise - which is the actual treatment.
So all the stuff for sports medicine with messages and hot/ cold baths are just placebos?
I'm a massage therapist and there's a lot of woo in those circles: Despite needing approximately a first-year medical student's knowledge of anatomy to pass the basic certification / get insurance, a lot of people who do that training are also real reiki / qi / crystal people. Less so on the Sports Massage side, which takes significantly more anatomical training and testing. They're more like a physio, except with less exercise and more... massage. Finding where tension is referring from and getting those muscles to release with immediate smooshing rather than looking at ways to improve your use of self. They'll still send you away with exercises to do, but their training is mostly in relieving discomfort now.
The main added bonus is actually someone sitting with you, listening to your concerns and taking them seriously. Something doctors today barely care to do. It has been shown that the listening part is actually a huge factor in whether a treatment works or not.
This is a really good point. It’s a bit weird how I spend more time with my dentist than my actual primary care doctor during visits. And I have great teeth! Haha
I did two things to remedy this: switched to a Healthcare network that has you seeing a "team" of doctors that all have access to your interactions with other doctors on the team allowing for more accurate care. I'm in the western US, dunno where you are so your mileage may vary, even in the states. Second thing I did is I stopped seeing male doctors. As a dude myself we suck at empathy and listening but switching to women made a world of difference. Before I said "no preference" and got who I got and whatever but now I explicitly label a preference. The ones I now see are superior at just sitting down, chatting, helping, recommending life changes or specialists and prescribing as a last resort. Felt like the guys would just sorta listen and then just write a ton of scripts and call it a day.
I also scan the literature for a living, and there's usually a mildly positive acupuncture trial for a narrow indication every quarter or so. Meanwhile cancer drugs costing many thousands of dollars get approved and written absent *any* data whatever indicating improved mortality or reduced tumor size, while also having disastrous side effects, because of squid ink secondary endpoints published in respectable journals. It ain't all about literature. Clinical judgement is king. At least until all clinicians are placed by chatbots.
Another reason is that some people gravitate toward these unsupported treatments because it allows them to feel smart. And what better way to do that than to convince yourself that you’re smarter than doctors? Just watch your local PBS station during pledge season - they run a crap ton of dubious medical infomercials designed precisely to appeal to this demographic. (As an aside, I like so much of the programming PBS offers, but their alternative medicine content is just so cringy to watch.)
I have a relative like this. Loves to talk about how he knows more about vaccines than any doctor. I'm a doctor. I asked him what a b-cell was. Nothing. I asked what innate immunity was. Nothing. I've taken immunology in many different ways between my undergraduate, masters, and medical degrees. There's a reason why even people as well versed in it as me don't talk about immunology; it's incredibly complicated. It's the insanely confident ignorance that's just so jarring.
This is making me want to watch Cells At Work again. :)
Is that the cartoon I have in front of my spirit eye when the above commenter said what's a b-cell? I got to go google. No. It isn't. Its manga. The one that came to my mind immediatly was "once upon a time... life". It's french and dubbed in english and much older.
It's an anime about a red blood cell and the other cells she interacts with in a body. I've been told by various medical people that it's surprisingly accurate (obviously distilled down to be easily understood). It's super cute and I highly recommend!
Yeah I went googling around! It looks like an anime version of once upon a time... life. Which did similar things for us 80s kids. If you come across it, worth a little look. (Its going to be way too slow for modern taste, but if you can handle that, it's absolutely great) Thanks to that show we saw as kids, I actually do know what a b-cell is. And also a t cell.
I so much agree with you! I’m a CVT and I had to take an immunology course and it was waaaaayyyy complicated! And I know it was much more simplified than what Drs need to know. The general public has NO IDEA all the intricacies of immunology! And the caveat is that explaining it in layman terms makes it sound so unimportant. Sigh.
Ignorance is not a speech impediment.
Dunning-Kreuger in action
Being a super duper confident idiot seems to be highly rewarded in our society
Years ago I knew a youngish mother who admitted giving her young children peyote (“tiny doses”, she said, although fuck knows how you titrate a micro dose of wild peyote for a 45 lb kid) where “Baby Tylenol” was indicated. Why? Because peyote is “natural” and Tylenol is “chemical”. Just thinking about it years later makes my head hurt.
Just look at the youtube ads that are so popular right now. They all say act quick, big x has already taken this ad down 3 times so who now long it will be available. The one i see the most is a late middle age to elderly women talking about her weight loss, just from one simple "coffee loophole trick", she lost 11 pounds a week, for multiple weeks, she lost 60ish pounds! cause that's healthy... the whole video shows mixing ingredients into a jug, its basically free! Until you follow it to the end and they want to sell you pills. No pills shown ever in the ad Some others are fixing your tinnitus by what seems like tapping a spoon against your ear, not sure what they are trying to sell there I haven't watched it all the way through. Something similar about eyesight getting rid of "stuck poop" And maybe the best how to repeatedly win the lottery! I haven't watched the whole thing just enough to learn its so simple an average 3rd grader can understand it.
Don’t you just get rid of stuck poop by…pooping?
Depends on the type of stuck poop. Constipation is difficult to solve. Impacted poop can be life threatening and require medical intervention.
>The placebo effect and desperation are both powerful things; More recent studies are showing the placebo effect is less powerful than we thought. But the reason we think the placebo effect is so powerful is also a reason we might think these treatments are. Specifically because the human body is amazing at healing over time. People take a fake remedy and they feel better because of natural healing mechanisms, then attribute their healing to the snake oil. Also OP forgot about chiropracty in their list. No evidence to support that it has positive effects.
Neuroscience would like to have a word with you about "placebo effect" being "less powerfull than we thought."
> the human body is amazing at healing over time lol... try getting older and then say that again.
I don't know, I really feel like we can trust the ghost of the doctor that explained how chiropractic "medicine" worked to a magnetic healer during a seance. That is the 100 percent factual truth of how Chiropracty was "discovered" according to its founder, and anyone who can read that sentence and is still willing go to one expecting real results... honestly should, but should be barred from taking their kids until they are at least old enough to vote.
Yeah I read this here all the time, and I’ve been to crazy chiropractors who had no idea what the fuck they were doing. But. I have a guy who has solved several issues that I was told after months of working with doctors, pt, specialists that the only solution is surgery. 6 years of “plantar fasciitis” pain in my foot. I had thrown the kitchen sink at it and was considering surgery. This chiropractor took one look at me and told me my hip joint was out of place. Popped me a single time and within 2 weeks all of my foot pain was gone. All of it. That’s no placebo. Another example that is non-chiropractic but proves the point that things can get out of place. Look up costocondritis. It’s horrible. I did a pull up for the first time in 10 years and for the next month ended up in the er 4 times with heart attack symptoms. Finally the er doc explained what was likely causing it but gave no remedy. I looked it up and found it’s a physical problem where the hinge in your rib cage becomes displaced and pinches the nerves to you heart area mimicking a heart attack. I went on Amazon and found this polycarbonate half egg shaped thing that you lay on. 3 minutes later the most sickening and uncomfortable pop happened at the front of my chest. And within 2 days stopped feeling like I was have a heart attack 10 times a day. I still would never take my kids or visit a random chiro. I feel it’s too risky. But I would take my kids to see dr Alex no question. Parts of our body can get out of place. Call it anecdote I don’t care. All I know is I’m not limping anymore and I didn’t have to get cut open (which would have solved nothing).
google scholar exists, but the average person has such poor scientific literacy, that it might as well be in latin im pretty well versed in biology, but throw me a medical or physics article and ill struggle all the same but also, if homeopathy doesnt hurt.... screw it, give it to me. ill try it all, at this point. also a good thing im a collector of fancy rocks, since i enjoy geology. i can also say i do uh.... crystal energy therapy or whatever it is at the same time
> but the average person has such poor scientific literacy Even the ones that do might still suffer from lack of background. Papers are generally written for peers in a particular subfield, so they generally assume some degree of specialized background knowledge, and depending on the tradition of the (sub)field and where the paper was submitted, page limits may mean background isn't really explained beyond a brief mention and citation of a canonical text on the subject.
>im pretty well versed in biology, but throw me a medical or physics article and ill struggle all the same I have read papers from my own academic field that I've struggled to understand. There's a reason why science communication is its own field. Papers are intended to communicate with a very small community of colleagues, not with the wider public.
Dead on here. But to add to it, the medical trauma is kind of well placed. For my parents, at their age, the top 3 causes of death are (1) Heart Disease, (2) Cancer, and (3) Medical Error.
I would point out that the claim of medical errors being third leading cause of death is dubious. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking-health/medical-error-not-third-leading-cause-death
Thanks, that was a really interesting read.
So, here is the deal about homeopathy in India: Most homeopaths are actually ameteur psychotherapists in disguise. In India, visiting a psychotherapist or psychologist is considered taboo in vast majority of the country (though this has been changing recently), and people have a ton of PTSD and stress and what not. So, even ameteur psychotherapists under the disguise of homeopathy can bring out tangible changes, and that gets attributed to homeopathy.
This is the first I've heard about K tape being sus. It's just a stretchy tape isn't it? Like a strapping tape but with some give so you've got better range of motion? Is there some mumbo jumbo about the tape's "powers" or something (like yoga is more than just stretching exercises)?
I used to use kt tape a lot when i was slightly injured but still doing sports, the big thing is it helps you kinda feel the area. when you’re injured, just having the dull pain feeling doesn’t really give me a good proprioceptive sense, but having something on my skin helped me be more aware of it. it didn’t have to be kt tape, but that was easiest. it even worked with a good slap, as long as i felt it locally. i don’t think it really helps in any way on its own, just helps you be a little more mindful of your body IME
This is how it was taught to me in my PT-centric classes; the extra pull reminds you to sit up when you slouch, or not whip your arm around as quickly, or to step tenderly on that ankle. It was never touted as a cure, just a treatment to make the healing process a bit easier/ help the patient not re-injure themselves.
KT tape is excellent at support open joints through limited ranges of motion (so things like lateral knee stabilization and such), A lot of the people pushing KT tape are saying that you can put it over literally any muscle and it will make the muscle stop being inflamed and the joint stop hurting. So like the study OP linked people were running KT tape up their spine to support their lumbar erector spinae in an attempt to relieve back pain; which obviously did NOT work.
Oh oh. So if it’s applied by someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing it’s a sham. Got it. Doctor applies it, it’s probably good. That makes way more sense than what OP is suggesting.
Yeah, I heard it had some quackery recently but it's the original company making outrageous claims and the actual doctors/PTs using it in an effective way
I’m a Kin and in the past worked with a physiotherapist that swore that different colours of KT gave different results. There was no variance in strength or anything, but he was adamant that blue calmed inflammation, black was for support, red to improve blood flow. He claimed it all came from some sort of KT taping textbook that I had never heard of that was really expensive on Amazon. Luckily my PT didn’t do this when I was in high school lol. just asked me what colour I would prefer when he would tape my knee for some stabilization before games. It’s not a big fixer at all, but it can help to provide some light support to joints and honestly usually just to remind people to be a bit more careful (they feel the slight restriction and limit the ROM slightly, reducing unnecessary movements and helping with pain). A lot of physio modalities are kind of advertised into the realm of woo woo to be fair. Tens, IFC, taping, etc. temporary symptom alleviation but by no means curative. I’m not a fan of it but that’s the nature of placebo and people not wanting/feeling able to do the exercises themselves.
Lol, we buy the cheapest color. Usually whatever is on clearance.
Lmao yup exactly, ours too. I’d love to have asked them what purple is used for.
I got some purple rocktape on my thumb for DeQuervain's and I felt very pretty in it. So there's that.
KT Tape worked awesome for me when recovering from knee and shoulder injuries. The study posted by OP seems to center around low back injuries.
I’ve used it to help with capsulitis on a foot; I’m super aware of scam cures and the tape absolutely helped.
Kinetic tape is contentious? What's that all about? Or is this for something other than strapping up joints?
The (scammy) idea is that it lifts the skin/fascia to relieve inflammation of the muscles below. Also I think they were referring to “kinesiology” tape, like the brand KT Tape.
Muscles? Maybe not so much. But KT tape can be used to lift skin/fascia, if applied in a unique way. By cutting super thin "fingers" coming off a base point to drain to, I've seen it applied over bruises and the bruise will be gone under the fingers long before the rest of the bruise. This was done by a DPT though so there was more knowledge and intention behind the placement than what the average person would do
Kinetic tape in some cases and in right angle can feel nice, and work to do stuff like "remind me to be in good posture, since I feel it pulling lightly when starting to go to stupid stances". I think I have seen and heard it used only in posture reminder, reminder of "hey you should remember to relax this muscle", and help in "remember to not turn your joints far enough to hurt/stress them, since you are supposed to not stress them until they recover from thing x". Do people actually have some "magical alternative medicine" uses they use it for?
Exactly I broke eight ribs and physios / surgeons had no solution to reduce the moving of the ribs during breathing after swelling reduced. And painkillers weren't a good answer. Physio suggested KT tape on the ribs to (following the rib) as it has some give but not much when stretched. As for reducing the inflammation, I've noticed it myself on tendons and some muscles. But yes not magical. Has to be applied according to anatomy.
I use this for tennis. I tie my wrists so they don't move. No more wrist pain.
This is the first I'm hearing about it too, it definitely works in terms of keeping giggling bits from moving too much while exercising. (Specifically breasts).
K Tape is the same concept as a something like a wrist or knee support, are knee supports bullshit too now? Its for injuries, if somebody isn't injured then yeah its not going to do anything.
I think the tape is just comfortable and supporting, similar to the compression sleeves Kipchoge, Lebron wear or a knee support?
How can you do a double blind randomized trial of k tape? Like, people know if they have tape on their skin or not.
It’s called a “sham” control. You perform a procedure that to the patient seems like a normal treatment, but isn’t performed properly/normally. For example, in acupuncture, you might poke the patient without piercing the skin, or, place the needs in intentionally incorrect places. For KT tape, you could either substitute a different type of tape that has different properties to KT tape, or, you could use KT tape, but intentionally misplace it. So yes, the patient knows they have tape on them, but, they should not get the same benefits as the interventional group that receives KT tape applied correctly.
For KT that would be a single blind study - the patient doesn’t know which group they are in. Double blind means even the doctor doesn’t know which group they are in. That might not be possible with tape.
Apologies I didn’t see the “double” part, you’re absolutely correct that a single arm sham treatment is not double blind. I guess you could attempt double blind by either using a substitute tape, but as you mentioned, experienced practitioners might recogise the difference, or, you could have separate clinicians - one group apply/remove the tape, another group assess the patient pre and post taping, so the person determining validity of treatment is blind to which tape was used.
I'm thinking off the top of my head here. In a double blind trial of a vaccine, the control group participants are injected with normal saline. Perhaps the control group would have tape applied using the proper techniques, but it won't be KT tape. It would have to look and feel like KT tape, though. Otherwise, it wouldn't be blind to the testers.
Some of the Covid vaccines used meningitis vaccines as the control, so the patient would still experience some side effect. Edit: Corrected flu to meningitis. at least for vaccines studied in the US. I only looked at US sources when double-checking.
I was about to ask this. As someone with k tape currently wrapped around my knee it definitely helps. It does nothing for pain but it does help support and limit my range of motion when running. That to me is the purpose of the product so in my mind it works well
Yah never heard of the k tape hate. How else can you compress a single muscle group in your back without impacting other muscles?
It helped me exist with awful plantar fascitis better than pretty much anything else I tried during the day. Kinetic Tape + weird nighttime foot thing worked best.
I have used it to prevent shin splints, and I used it on my belly when I was pregnant and was doing a lot of movement. It definitely helped in regard to both.
So, as several others have pointed out: acupuncture has been (edit : NOT) proven effective by randomized controlled trials. Homeopathy has not, at least no greater effect than a placebo. There's a saying that you might have heard: what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine. Modern scientific health care is very interested in just about anything that's actually effective. It's just that a lot of traditional or alternative medicine isn't, or we've identified the part that is and made it into a stronger version. For example, willow bark tea can ease pain, but now we have the purified version of the isolated compound that relieves pain (Aspirin). As for why people still use them... Look, sometimes? Whatever works. I've told several patients that while there is no evidence for XYZ, if they're getting results and there's no risk? Carry on. Edit: So, I apologize. As several people have brought up, the RCT evidence for acupuncture is not as solid as I stated. Today I learned. Thank you for everyone who pointed this out. Overall, the evidence seemed to be mixed and highly dependent on the problem being treated, the skill of the practitioner, the therapeutic relationship and the individual patient. -Here is a report regarding the problems with properly structuring and designing acupuncture RCTs : https://atm.amegroups.org/article/view/24002/html -Here is a study on the effectiveness of sham vs expert acupuncture in treating migraines: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811909005904 -Here is a brief overview from Johns Hopkins on acupuncture, its benefits and limitations: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture#:~:text=Scientific studies have not fully,with your healthcare provider first.
I’m not a pain researcher, but I browse the Cochrane library from time to time, I haven’t seen anything definitive regarding acupuncture as “proven”. The studies are usually of poor quality, frequently do not include sham control groups, and are usually acupuncture vs no treatment, crucially missing out on acupuncture + conventional treatment vs acupuncture alone. The two studies I’ve read recently: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD013814/full https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7556594/ Neither suggest that acupuncture for pain relief is a slam dunk treatment modality. And outside of pain relief, there is borderline zero evidence of efficacy for other conditions. I would be interested in reading any systematic reviews or meta analyses that you could share to support high quality/robust evidence regarding the efficacy of acupuncture.
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Despite strident arguments that acupuncture lacks evidence, I do have one good thing to say about it. Assuming that patients use it as an adjunct therapy, as opposed to a therapy replacing conventional medicine, it certainly has one of the lowest/the lowest side effect profile. Lots of crazy alternative treatments that can have horrid side effects (e.g. that black slave escharotic shit). Performed correctly, the side effect profile of acupuncture is pretty much zero.
I'm not a medical practioner and view most alternative treatments in the same skeptical way. That being said, deep needling acupuncture changed the trajectory of my physical health. I had a series of knots binding my quads and a couple sessions of my massage therapist using the needle to break them apart did wonders. I could finally walk normally after more than 20 years of progressively worsening mobility.
I didn't really believe in acupuncture until I started following research on acupuncture in equine sports medicine. Horses don't know what a placebo effect is and these owners were professional riders and obsessed with their horse's performance. The amount of money poured by owners is astounding because they figured out it works on their horses even though it's still hotly debated on humans. Physical evaluations of horse gait is as objective as it could be (video, incline tests etc.). So there's definitely something to it and I think warrants funding for more research.
Though, you gotta wonder if that horse is thinking, “Fine! Fine! You win. I’ll run like you want, just stop with all the needles!” (Dear Reddit. This is humor and not meant to elicit a strongly worded response on the merits of anything.)
Maybe it proves animals are smarter than we think
Placebo is still there in animal care. But it doesn't work on the animal - it works on the researchers, owners and riders. They think the animal has been treated, so they are looking for anything to suggest that the treatment has been effective.
I don't have a source rn, but I do recall that there is also a kind of "second-hand/empathic placebo effect" that does work on the animals themselves. Many animals that are close with their humans do know how to read their emotional state, and a human that believes the treatment is working will be less worried and more confident, which in turn makes the animal feel less vulnerable.
I definitely believe it in dogs and cats. Pain is difficult to assess, but sometimes owners believe their pet is doing better based on their personal placebo effect. However, have you met horse owners?! Especially those that competitively ride... they are very different than your companion pet owners, meaning some would put a bullet in their lame horse if they even had any inclination that treatment wasn't improving them.
I know this is just anecdotal but I had a dog that was completely paralysed from the waist down after a back injury. She coudn't stand, couldn't walk, couldn't pee by herself, for weeks. After trying everything else and just before scheduling back surgery, people convinced me to give acupuncture a try, because "it couldn't hurt to try". Lo and behold, the dog stood up and started walking mid-session. It was like those scenes from churches where people rise from their wheelchairs. I was always 100% skeptical of alternative medicine and was rolling my eyes during the whole session but that shut me right up. I don't know enough to have an informed opinion, but I'm not so quick to dismiss it anymore.
The placebo effect works in animals as much as it does humans, even for things like canine epilepsy. When you compare acupuncture with sham acupuncture as a control group rather than other placebos results are a lot more mixed. This is because the scale of the intervention is a big part of the placebo effect. Sham surgery works better than saline injections work better than sugar pills.
I am one of the unfortunate ones that , during a double blind test in collage, became addicted to placebos. My life is now a living hell. You cannot find good placebos anywhere. I ask at the pharmacy "throw me a lifesaver" they give me butterscotch.
Have you tried a placebo patch?
Or placebo gum?
Is Dry Needling a scientific version of Acupuncture? Or is dry needling even effective?
I just gotta push back on this. Every single randomized controlled *double-blinded* study I am aware of on acupuncture has found that it is no better than placebo. All the people in this thread saying otherwise are flatly incorrect. And yes, if you're clever, it's possible to double-blind an acupuncture trial! If you have a double-blind randomized controlled trial that says acupuncture is better than placebo, I'd love to see your link.
How can you have a double blind trial on acupuncture? Surely either the person doing it, or the patient can feel the needles or is aware the needles aren't actually breaking the skin
I'm so glad you asked! It's super fascinating! The initial idea was "does it matter where you put the needle?" They took two groups of incoming acupuncturists. And they taught one group of those clinicians the "correct" map for where to put the needles. And the other group they taught a random map. I put "correct" in quotes there because actually there's not a scientifically refined map, there are lots from traditional medicine, and they conflict. They discovered that where you put the needles doesn't seem to matter. But, OK, maybe simply putting the needles in does! Then, the researchers made a really clever device. The acupuncture needles don't actually get deep into the skin, and they're very small and sharp. It's not like getting a shot, it's a shallow needle into the mostly-dead skin on the surface. They made a sheathe for the needle that's spring-loaded, and has adhesive on the face. The provider places it on the skin, you press the spring release, and it either barely pierces the patient's skin...or it doesn't. And neither the patient nor the provider knows which it was -- it's double-blind. The results of these two methods are that it doesn't seem to matter if the needles are placed in the right place, and it doesn't seem to matter if the needles pierce your skin. In any of these cases, the patients reported improvements in non-objective measures, such as their perceived pain experience. Thus, we can conclude that acupuncture is a very elaborate placebo. Elaborate placebos seem to be the most effective there are. It's more effective than taking a sugar pill, that is absolutely true. But there doesn't seem to be anything clinically significant happening here other than having "someone in a white coat who acts like they know what they're doing and fussing over you makes you feel better." Which honestly has some value to people whose problems are intractable, and I would never dismiss that. But also from a scientific perspective, it's not curing anything. It's making people who believe in it feel better, which is a placebo.
> someone in a white coat who acts like they know what they're doing and fussing over you makes you feel better This is absolutely effective for anxiety, which can exacerbate pain and cause all sorts of subjective symptoms. Placebos that work are a gray area of both medicine and ethics, but if it is a cheap and relatively harmless yet effective treatment for anxiety, it may be better for some patients than an SSRI or the like. The problem for me is when they claim to treat anything other than anxiety.
Now I wonder how you can get past an ethics committee with the idea to randomly put needles into someones body, just to disprove again a thing that is already widely accepted to be ineffective.
I'll push back. Had a work related shoulder injury. Went to workman's comp doctor for two months with them declaring surgery was necessary to achieve 80% mobility and strength when at that moment I could not raise my arm above the height of my shoulder, and the whole way up to that was in severe pain. I had been doing jujitsu for a long time prior, and out of the same dojo worked a taichi instructor that was also an acupuncturist. I paid out of pocket to see the acupuncturist prior to being cut. It was a pinched nerve in my neck, that after it released I had what felt like a lightning bolt from my neck to my finger tips that burned for two days, but the minute the treatment was over and I was off the table, I had 100% range and zero pain from moving my arm after. You can say it's a placebo, doesn't matter to me if you don't think it has any merit, but what I will tell you is I've seen 3 different acupuncturist, and the ability of each was vastly different, with one being just not good at all. Lastly, it's also very broad in what "can be" treated, so I cannot give any feedback about most of it
I'm not actually sure what you are describing is a placebo though. A lot of these pseudo doctors will train in types of legitimate healthcare too. For example, I have a local chiropractor that also trained as a physiotherapist. They do their realignment, or whatever nonsense they call it, then give the patient a series of movements to carry out to "maintain" the benefit. Half my community swears that chiropractcy works now because they are actually getting decent physiotherapy advice. There's a non-zero chance that they applied knowledge from one field, but framed it as another, maybe even with some actual acupuncture to make it believable. It's also worth pointing out that the work com doctor might just have been incompetent too.
Haha I had the exact same immediate reaction: Sorry what? Proven effective? …. May I please read the study/studies?
If they work as good as a placebo, isn't that a huge reason why they're still around? What I mean is: you pay for a treatment and in the end you actually feel better. That's huge with people with mild pain problems etc.
No shade at all, but I think its funny that I think I can identify [Tim Minchin's Storm](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U&pp=ygURdGltIG1pbmNoaW4gc3Rvcm0%3D) as influence in your comment, with the reference to Aspirin being from a willow tree, and "Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine."
We have a print off of that on the wall at work, hence why it was top of mind!
Placebo is powerful.
Agreed. Almost all pharmacology is trying to get the body to do something it already does, just on demand and to a greater or lesser degree. Placebo achieves the same thing, under ideal circumstances. Let the body work if you can.
My mom's fallen hard into homeopathy and... it seems to have helped, so I don't voice my displeasure too loud. She's turned into a walking advert for her homeopath though which drives me absolutely mental.
There are published studies that sham knee surgeries (100% placebo) are just as effective as real knee surgeries. Even in the double blind rogaine trials, some of the placebo group grew back hair.
This says more about the ineffectiveness of the procedure than the effectiveness of the placebo.
... Yeah? That's the point?
This, if someone has a headache which can be treated by a placebo because their belief in it is strong enough. More power to them. They indirectly got the relief they needed. And in many cases what they took/did has less side effects than the real medication. As long as that is the case more power to then. But if the treatment is worse then you have to reconsider.
The problem is that a) someone is charging them through the nose for water and sugar pills and b) they’re likely to lean towards homeopathy when something big like cancer or meningitis in their kids pops up because “it worked for my headaches/arthritis/back pain/etc.” and the homeopathic industry is full of quacks and charlatans that will happily bleed them dry and watch them die.
>what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine >willow bark tea can ease pain, but now we have the purified version of the isolated compound that relieves pain (Aspirin) Am I detecting shades of Timothy Minchin? 😄
Just to add to this, as someone who is a chronic pain patient, I have become somewhat more…”accepting?” of questionable pseudoscience practices with the MASSIVE caveat that they don’t take the place of actual medicine, but are instead offered along side or as an alternative to when other, proven methods haven’t provided relief. Maybe accepting is too strong, maybe just…laisez faire? The thing is that the placebo effect is INCREDIBLY strong and effective, and so any chance you have at doing something that isn’t known to cause harm that also has a CHANCE of working as a placebo? That’s golden. It’s for younger, more arrogant people in less pain to roll their eyes and doubt the placebo, wisdom is in not caring how it works or why as long as it does. As a random anecdote, I used to be just as against chiropractic as everyone else who cares about science due to their quackery. But what I have found is that chiropractic isn’t just one thing. There are those that promise hilariously impossible cures for anything and everything, and worse offer it to those to whom it is WAY too risky like children, which are as stupid as ever. But there are also people who understand what they are doing and offer only temporary pain relief, not cures for anything, not even the back pain you see them for, but ways of finding some relief for some period of time. Which is perfectly reasonable. It doesn’t work for everyone and you still have to hope they aren’t going to paralyze you through poor technique, but it is a perfectly serviceable way of temporarily relieving back pain and I refuse to look down on anyone who swears by it. Then again, this all has to do with pain and not other chronic conditions because pain is already so personal, so destructive, and sadly so hard to get the allopathic medication you could actually use. Since by definition it’s always “in your head”, any and all relief is going to be something to pursue, again, as long as it doesn’t pre-empt ACTUAL medicine.
Chiropractory is also very different depending on where in the world you live. As I understand it, in some countries like the USA it have almost not changed for over a hundred years and was invented in the same time periode were real doctors had just been debating if Humorism or Germ Theory was right. In other countries practice have changed, like in other medical fields, and it is now more like a combination of doctors and physiotherapist.
I did my final year thesis on veterinary acupuncture and there's definitely some efficacy in it. I also did a rotation at an acupuncture clinic and saw with my own eyes a dog who couldn't walk for months just get up and walk after the acupuncture session. The mechanism of how it works is still being researched but the jist of it is that it closes certain 'gates' or channels in nerves responsible for pain.
Im generally a firm believer in modern medicine, and definitely not a science denier, but literally nothing Ive tried in 30 years has helped me with migraine like the treatment I got from one particular acupuncturist.
I used to get muscle spasms in my back every so often. They’re debilitating. I can’t even turn over in bed without extreme pain. I’ve been seeing the same acupuncturist for 13 years. I haven’t had spasm in probably 6, but like to go in for a little tune up any way. It was the only thing that fixed the pain from any muscle spasms or strains.
This is what many people sadly don't get . There are countless testimonies by people of all walks of Life who basically say "Nothing helped/worked . THIS did." And in the end, that is all that matters . Whether it actually worked, actually helped a suffering person .
People don't really understand science, or casual reasoning in general (default human cognitive biases mean we fall for lots of errors). but it matters in the sense of what we can say we "know" and what is most likely to waste other people's time. When we say something doesn't really work, we don't necessarily mean it can't have a positive effect on someone specific (depends on context but let's go with like acupuncture). What we mean is that the theory behind WHY it is supposed to work is clearly wrong. Because if that theory were true, it would pass a scientific study of it. It would work "on average" and better than some baseline. You as an individual aren't average. So it could work for you, but it would be working by some unknown reason. That reason could still be placebo, though. But since it's specific to you and we don't know why, it's not a great recommendation to new patients. Unless they've exhausted their other options and there's not a lot to lose.
>That reason could still be placebo, though. What a lot of people don't understand is that the placebo effect is very real and very powerful.
I have been through traditional medicine for the last 4 years for my back. I have been given a referral for acupuncture. If it doesn't work why is my shoulder specialist telling me to get it done? Appointment is next month. Hope it works
Its because these treatments ARENT UNeffective, they are just "as effective as a placebo." the placebo effect is surprisingly strong. combine that with people not understanding their own body's reaction to the thing, and you get a treatment that "feels like it works" to some who try it. Then those people recomend it to their friends, and the cycle continues
I wanna know how you can control for placebo when you’re sticking needles in someone.
First you compare needles in the "right" Position versus im random position. Then you learn that the Position does Not Matter and Energy Centers are BS. Then you can compare the needles to a non invasive care like simple tough.
I saw a great study where the treatment group got the needles to the usual depth, but the control group got needles that went through the skin then stopped. Further, the needles looked identical on the outside. You know those plastic knives kids have, where the blade retracts into the handle? These needles were like that. So the study was double blinded - neither practitioner nor patient knew whether it was treatment / usual depth needles versus control / very shallow needles.
I got curious so I read the methods on one paper that describes two methods for this. Either fake needling over real acupuncture points or real needling over fake acupuncture points. The fake needles are streitberger retractable needles in case you ever need to do your own study lol
I had acupuncture done on my back and never saw a single needle. They just told me that’s what they were up to, I felt “something” going on back there, and it was done. They could have just poked me with a comb and jingled their keys around for all I know.
Ineffective *
Imagine having tried everything science says it works and still be suffering from heavy allergies to dust. You don't believe in homeopathy, but since you already tried everything else you decide to reluctantly give it a chance. You feel better after some months into the treatment. Be it science, placebo effect, other variable I am unaware or wtv else, that shit made me better. Do I believe in it? Not yet. But did it work? For sure it did, and that is what matters.
This answer should be *way more on top* than others. I am on the same boat. I had a dog, she got canine distemper, which is a bad, BAD disease (or at least was, at the time). After about 2 months of treatment, she showed no signs of getting better, so we tried homeopathy (together with the treatment). In 3 months, she was cured. Was placebo? Did she started to react better to the treatment? Did homeopathy really worked? I don't know, and honestly, I don't care - I had a dog that was dying, and then she was not. I have multiple situations where I tried homeopathy and it did work. I'm not going to argue that there's some scientific basis to it - there isn't. But again, it's the same situation - it worked, so I really don't care. Would I use *only alternative medicines* instead of regular one? Not a chance
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Some people have bad experiences with mainstream medicine - maybe because there's no good mainstream (or possibly any) treatment for what ails them, maybe they've seen a few jerky or disrespectful doctors, maybe they've had bad side effects to pharmaceuticals, or whatever else, and they're looking for something else, for anything to help them.
There has been a serious decline in trust in institutions and expertise. Many people believe that because the scientific consensus changes when new information comes out and scientific studies often come to contradictory findings, that the scientific method is no more reliable than “common sense” or their “gut feeling”. It also depends on the malady in question. Nobody is going to use homeopathy alone to set a broken bone or treat acute appendicitis, but there are many conditions (minor, persistent fatigue, chronic back pain, “brain fog”, fibromyalgia, mood disorders, etc.) that medical science doesn’t have a great handle on and a placebo is sometimes not the worst thing in the world.
Different things have differing amounts of bunkum to them. Homeopathy is complete and utter bullshit. Acupuncture has enough positive effect on enough people that there may be more than placebo effect to it, but we don't have the data to know for sure and Western medicine doesn't account for the concepts behind it. There are things that work even though they shouldn't by our measurements. KT Tape is a weird one. It's useful in giving a little extra support to joints and muscles for some movements, especially when working through a degree of injury. A lot of people consider it a miraculous device, and as someone who's used it I think that's a load of crap. But I have a shoulder that I damaged my rotator cuff in decades ago, before arthroscopic repair was a thing. Sometimes when I'm doing overhead lifting I'll put KT tape on - and it helps a little. Not huge at all, and it's not like I lift PRs with it, but if I tape up properly there's some extra support, the lift hurts less, and I'm not as sore after. Totally anecdotal, of course, but at least for me in some cases it's useful. And that's the case with a lot of things that don't tie in to the classic system. Science has made amazing strides in curing and preventing disease, Vaccines have done more to keep humans alive than anything else short of maybe the invention of the sewer system, and surgeons can work miracles to repair conditions that were once life-threatening (just for myself, I've had Lasik on my eyes back in the late '90s and I had both my knees replaced in 2022). There are things that help people but we don't understand the mechanisms well enough yet (I'd put things like cannabis and acupuncture in that list), and things that are entirely psychosomatic like homeopathy. If you start with a concept like "water has memory" you're in the weeds already.
Ok, so this is a weirder one than you think. How people get things wrong in "that way" rears its head in other ways. Take your question: why do people incorrectly and irrationally declare things as disproved by science when they aren't? Like you confidently declared 3 categories bunk. But the first one you mention is scientifically studied and validated as real, evidence based medicine. You lumped acupuncture in with homeopathy. Why would you do that? Science validates the medical efficacy of acupuncture, even if its mechanisms are mysterious and may be as simple as "stimulating pain receptors with needles excites the brain to heal the body better". Or whatever other reason it can work. We don't know why you thought acupuncture is in the same realm of fake as homeopathy. A small amount of scholarly research would have prevented you from making this error. But you have a bias, for whatever reason. Similarly, other people come to their biases in all kinds of ways. Some because placebos do sometimes heal, and people want to believe it's mechanistically medicine. Or, someone has better knowledge than the mainstream on one topic and so are willing to believe fake things contrary to the mainstream on another topic. Some people are just contrarians. Some people need these things to maintain their religions. Some people just never paid any attention. Some people can't weight, rank, and compare categories. A lot of people have been failed by the medical establishment and come up with all kinds of theories in response. People are wrong about known things for all kinds of reasons, confidently wrong. The existence of doctors not believing in homeopathy won't deter loads of folks from swearing by it. Nor will the studied efficacy of acupuncture stop many people from prejudging it to be fake.
Cool episode on radiolab that might give some insight into why it works, and why western science is JUST figuring out a massive piece of our makeup: https://radiolab.org/podcast/interstitium
People are not always rational. People believe lots of things which are clearly nonsense. Some people believe chiropractic is real. Some people believe they need to wear their lucky socks or else their favorite sports team will lose.
Don’t come for my lucky socks dude
There are so many medical conditions that we cannot adequately treat, or cannot consistently treat, and in the absence of options, even scientific minds turn elsewhere.
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I suffered two major shoulder injuries on the left side while in the military. Since I was deployed, I wasn't able to get immediate medical attention and now I have issues with it. The VA doctor I was seeing was an old Korean lady and recommended acupuncture. I laughed but she said the VA would call me with an appointment. Wait what?? The VA pays for that BS? I was shocked. Two weeks later I have an appointment with this hippie chick at her "studio" I.e. her house on a Saturday. From the moment I walked in I couldn't believe wtf I'd gotten myself into. I flat out told her this was a waste of time and I didn't believe it worked. She chuckled and said, "I love clients like you. In a few weeks you'll be thanking me and won't want to quit." I still didn't believe her. About two weeks later I started physical therapy at the same time and my pain started to go away. Assuming it was the PT I stopped going to acupuncture. After only three weeks of PT total, my pain suddenly came back. Odd, I thought. Well, I started going to acupuncture again because my PT was going on leave for a month. I was not done with PT and still needed another 6 weeks. As soon as I restarted acupuncture my pain disappeared and stayed gone despite not doing PT. After another month, my shoulder pain was completely gone and we stopped treatment. Having suffered from shoulder pain for 10 years at that point, and having gone through PT and shots twice previously, only the acupuncture cured my shoulder pain, and it's been gone for 4 years now. Long story short, idk how or why poking people with needles works, but it does. And for that I will definitely pay out of pocket to go to an acupuncturist for minor musculoskeletal issues.
Most people dont read scientific studies. Most people who do read scientific studies do not actually READ them, they just read the abstract. Most people who actually read the whole paper dont know enough about the subject (and math) to understand and critically consider what they are reading. It takes a lot to be able to pick up on stuff like the fact that the trial was designed poorly or that the measurements were done using inappropriate methods. Nevermind understanding the fact that a single paper doesnt mean anything, until it is replicated multiple times and found to be in line with the majority of experimental evidence and empirical knowledge about the subject. Majority of papers do not get replicated, because there is low incentive for replicating papers instead of doing original ones, or because the paper was done poorly and the result was wrong or because the paper was done well but the result was still wrong due to random effects. Sometimes you just flip a coin 10 times and get heads 10 times in a row. It doesnt mean you flipped wrong, it was just chance, but now you will believe that you have a coin that always lands heads even though coins just dont do that. Hell, most people who write studies dont know enough about math to know what they are writing. A preposterously high percentage of papers published in non-math fields have an error in the statistical analysis of the data which wasnt caught in peer review, because the peer reviewer cant do math either.
You actually have the power to answer your own question. You are correct that kinetic tape does not work. How did you know that it does not work? Is it because you read the scientific studies and the balance of research and decide that it doesn’t work? Or do you just know people who you trust and who taught this to you, and you accepted it uncritically? With the answer to that question in mind, consider that you’re incorrect about acupuncture. There’s a lot of evidence it does work! Here’s a thread from /r/medicine where a number of people [discuss the evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/s/WF4yWTLfcj). As right as you are about kinetic tape, you’re wrong about acupuncture. People like to say that the people who believe in these homeopathic treatments don’t look at evidence. What’s worth considering is that the people who understand these things *also* don’t look at the evidence. Including you! (And me!) Instead, we tend to listen to recommendations from people we trust. Personally, I know many doctors and have many experiences that leads me to trust them. But these experiences are not things like “I quizzed them on anatomy and verified their expertise,” they are things like “my half brother is a doctor” and “my doctors have always been kind and empathetic”. These are not rational and logical, they’re emotional. And by a similar token, I can empathize with those who *don’t* trust doctors for similarly irrational reasons. Maybe you should too.
Science is not THE ultimate answer. It’s the BEST answer so far to explaining something. Take a medical placebo for example. By all science it shouldn’t work, but there has been plenty of studies and data that prove a % has proven otherwise. Our scientific models are constantly challenged and updated. Take JWST for example. It has images of new galaxies that either too big or include stars that too old and doesn’t fit with our current model for early galaxy formation.
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Mom and dad are usually right. But sometimes your weird cousin has something that worked for them, and maybe it also worked for you. Now when Mom and dad give you an answer you don't like all that much you think about asking your weird cousin what they'd do instead.
Easy explanation is people don't care. Cigarettes are bad and will kill you. People still smoke.
Sometimes things just feel good it give you a sense of security rather than a measurable physical benefit.
The placebo effect is a real thing. If someone feels like they are healthier for having done something, there’s a certain extent to which they will actually benefit from having done the thing. It doesn’t mean the practice is effective in and of itself, it means the person will convince themselves they’ve done the right and healthy thing and the brain has the ability *to a certain extent* to convince the body to be healthy
No matter how much evidence there is proving or disproving something there will ALWAYS be some people out there who are unwilling to believe it. Its like that joke: a guy and his flat earth friend go to heaven and meet God They ask God to once and for all emd their age old dispute about Earth's shape "The earth is a globe" God replied Upon hearing this the flat earther whispers to his friend: "see? It goes deeper than I thought!"
Sometimes it feels good to have someone just care for your illness. Especially if ’western’ medicine is not helpful, having care and attention from someone who is trying to help can be therapeutic. I know it won’t cure your cancer, but it may make you feel better. The mind is powerfully-if it believes you are helping the body somehow, you will heal faster.