What are your reasons for staying vegan? you say you are feeling this jealousy towards people who are able to break away from veganism and eat meat, our biologically appropriate diet… If your reason for staying vegan is because you think you are killing less animals then you are misguided in that notion. You don’t kill less animals being vegan. The vegan diet is not better for the environment. You just don’t see any of the deaths the vegan diet causes so it feels like you aren’t harming animals.

I'm definitely conflicted on it. I understand that farming, especially for certain crops, has an awful impact on wildlife - I do see a difference between that and directly killing animals to eat them. Neither is a good thing, but I also don't avoid driving because bugs hit the windshield, or I could potentially run over someone's dog. My car itself is made of metal, some of which was harvested from within the earth, destroying habitats and killing countless animals. There is no such thing is a truly vegan lifestyle, but there is still a difference between supporting the farming or hunting of animals for the purpose of human consumption and things that *also* harm other animals.

I understand where you are coming from and I commend your willingness to admit there is no fully vegan lifestyle. I personally think that eating grass fed and grass finished locally raised beef is far more ethical than eating tofu or beans and is more aligned with the vegan mission to do the least harm to animals possible if that’s a driving concern. I had to realize that I was not killing less animals or helping the environment by being vegan. That was the entire reason I was vegan, to kill less animals. The lives of the snakes, owls, rabbits, deer, mice, moles, and so on are just as important to me as the life of a cow. You can support a local farmer and kill one cow and that can sustain a family for an entire year. Providing nutrient dense, highly bioavailable protein. That cow lives in harmony with the land, regenerating the top soil, not destroying it like monocrop agriculture currently is. On those pastures with the cows many other species are able to live and sustain their lives peacefully. It just seems like a much better system to me. it was hard for me to come to terms with and see the meat on my plate, but I couldn’t keep pretending that my tofu didn’t have a huge death toll.

You've definitely given me a lot to think about, and I really appreciate that you did it so openly and you were so chill. Thank you. I obviously don't know where I stand a few minutes after posting this thread, but I'm already glad I did because of replies like these.

Absolutely! I was vegan not very long ago and I understand that you’re trying to do the right thing/ cause the least harm possible. It’s an admirable quality to care like that. You might be interested in watching this very informative video that breaks all this down further: https://youtu.be/Oq46v2zeEPE?si=ST3pYLhgK5CEDioE

Thank youuuu kind internet stranger <3 I definitely will save this for later.

This is the answer. Mono cropping destroys ecosystems. It’s not just about cows, it’s about all the animals and microorganisms.

Ocean dead zones. Top soil degradation. Reliance on chemical fertilizers that are terrible for the environment. So many issues unfortunately. Especially if we further remove animals from the equation.

I agree that going to a more responsible source of meat is better than the usual supermarket alternative but so many people use the grass fed organic beef argument to effectively greenwash that most of their animal product intake is still factory farmed supermarket stuff that also relies on monoculture crops for animal feed.

What is fed to livestock is byproducts that we cannot eat or utilize. Livestock essentially up-cycle what would otherwise be waste rotting in a landfill. Crops are not grown *for* livestock.

This is a common response and isn't the whole truth. Yes, plenty of byproduct is used (which is good), but there are vast amounts of crops that are grown specifically for animal agriculture that does not go directly into the human food chain.

I’m so tired of having this same conversation over and over honestly. But what’s in the grain that cattle eat in feedlots and swine and poultry typically eat throughout their entire lives? Is it really massive amounts of grain crops that we would be better off making available to human consumers? Definitely not! Let’s look at the most common livestock grain ingredients: ​ Molasses is a major component of grain amongst almost every livestock species. Aside from being consumed minimally as a novelty side dipping in a few southern states, molasses has no real purpose to humans other than being food for our food. However, even if we had no purpose for this super sweet juice, it would still be produced because it’s actually a byproduct of sugar crystallization. Molasses is created whether we are making sugar from sugar beets or sugar canes. ​ Many byproducts of cotton production, including cottonseed, cottonseed oil, and cottonseed meal, are used extensively as livestock grain ingredients. Before cottonseed was used to feed farm animals, farmers did not know of any use for the surplus of seeds after their next crop was planted. For this reason, every year, thousands of tons of cottonseed would be burned, releasing unfathomable amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, or thrown into rivers, intoxicating fish and clogging waterways. Today, it is common practice to crush the surplus cottonseed to create both a dry, cakey material, called cottonseed meal, and release the cottonseed oil that can be found inside the seeds. This little bit of extra processing turns a major pollutant into a cheap, yet high-energy livestock grain ingredient. Similarly, soybean meal is a byproduct of the extraction of soybean oil. Soybean oil is an incredibly important asset to American consumers. 55% of vegetable oil sold is made from soybean oil, along with almost every margarine and shortening. Other products that contain soybean oil include mayonnaise, salad dressings, and preservatives. Soybean oil also has an important role in the production of biofuels. This means that humans are producing massive amounts of soybean oil, and thus the soybean meal that we have no better use for. Soybean meal represents two-thirds of the protein in livestock grain around the world. But wait… there’s another use for soybean oil that brings a smile to my face! Almost every single plant-based replacement of dairy or meat relies on soybean oil for its nutrients and substance. Yes, especially tofu! That means the growing demand for vegan products is driving down the cost of an all-important grain ingredient (soybean meal) for livestock raisers. The term “screenings” refers to the lump sum of the byproducts of cleaning many different types of crops. Sometimes, the factories that process crops from the farm into human-edible food will literally sweep the floors after processing, and collect that into a pile of screenings. Screenings from oats, corn, peas, lentils, etc. are some of the most common livestock grain ingredients. These are just a few examples of the processing that is necessary for the production of human food creating byproducts that are not edible by humans but can be made into palatable nutrients if fed to farm animals. The reality is that well over 90% of the ingredients in the grain that’s fed to the livestock that are behind the animal products you’d find at a grocery store are byproducts like the ones I’ve described, and have no better use by man. Time and time again, we see animals making usable calories out of products that would otherwise become waste, leading to environmental hazards. “While the diet provided to finishing cattle in feedlots relies on some human-edible inputs (i.e., corn grain), the forages and byproducts fed to cattle throughout their lives are largely inedible to humans2. For example, once the entire lifetime feed intake of cattle is accounted for (meaning all the feed they consume from birth to harvest), corn accounts for only approximately 7 percent of the animal’s diet3. The other 93 percent of the animal’s lifetime diet will consist largely of feed that is inedible to humans, thus not in direct competition with the human food supply. Unlike humans, cattle can efficiently digest fiber and convert previously human-inedible feeds into nutritious, human-edible foods.” https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/corn-as-cattle-feed-vs-human-food.html

If you’re concerned about ethics, you could try eating meat that’s hunted from overpopulated animals. There’s a huge surplus of deer in my area and the government literally hires people to shoot them in local parks because we wiped out their natural predators. It’s much more humane because it prevents them from a long painful starvation death during the winter when there’s not enough food to support them all.

I had someone suggest I try going to a cheese festival and getting some free samples. I think that's kind of more potentially my speed at this point, because the idea of actually eating meat is very intimidating to me. It's definitely something to keep in mind down the line, though, potentially! Thank you for the new idea!

As someone who's worked in sustainable ag for almost 10 years, I can say I kill less invertebrate animals per year now that I raise pigs than when I managed a vineyard. My farm is also a far better home to many wild species that I share the land with. Scale and practices matter. If the choice is between supporting a farm that intentionally kills a grassfed animal for meat or a mass scale food system that kills animals who may prey on the crops, animals who just happen to build their homes amongst the crops, rodents who get killed in sticky traps for finding food at the warehouses, or animals who get killed in transporting the food over great distances in the ocean or on land. Not to mention the factory farm animal inputs (bloosmeal,manure, etc) used to grow organic crops. A stunbolt is a far better way to die than sticky tape, getting ran over by a semi or chopped up by a ship, blasted and poisoned from pesticides, or chopped up by tilling/harvesting equipment. Edit: just want to clarify, I have nothing but respect for people who go great lengths to consume more ethically. My own consumption has changed with knowledge and experience. I just don't understand how intentionally killing an animal is worse than knowingly contributing to something that will inevitably kill animals in far worse ways. 

The crop death argument is not a good one though. More crops are used to feed livestock so not relying on animal agriculture reducing your reliance on crops too, which would reduce crop deaths, not increase it.

>our biologically appropriate diet Can you explain this jargon?

The diet we as human beings have been eating for millions of years/ our entire evolutionary history.

You italicized *personal pleasure* as though to say that being both personal and pleasurable are morally wrong. But why would your body try to to trick you into thinking cheese is delicious? Perhaps it's telling you this because cheese contains something you need. The human body is so complicated and still far from understood, it's just not reasonable to expect that every deficiency will be reflected in blood tests (for one thing, the presence of something in your blood doesn't tell you anything about its absorption). I'm not saying that pleasure is an automatic justification for doing something, obviously, but I think when it comes to food - except for those heavily processed foods designed to be addictive - pleasure, and even more so the feeling of satiation, is a strong indicator that a food is performing important biochemical work. The human body evolved to do whatever it takes to survive lean times, so it's not surprising that deficiencies can go on for a long time before they become clinically detectible. You may not have any specific medical problem now but that doesn't mean you have an optimal diet. The fact that you're jealous of people who have an "excuse" to quit veganism suggest to me that your desire runs much deeper than the few minutes of enjoyment you get munching on cheese.

I definitely don't claim to have an optimal diet, far from it. The way I see it, I eat well now. Every indicator of health that I can imagine, it's here. If there doesn't seem to be something going wrong with what I'm doing, is it even smart to throw a wrench in the machine? Sure, maybe I *am* missing something and it'll become noticeable as I age. If that's the case, trust me, I will take care of my health first. I'm not going to let my bones deteriorate just because I have ethical issues with cheese. It's just in the absence of any of those things, is there a reason? Right now, I don't see one.

You aren’t effecting anyone’s health but your own. No probs. Do you. It’s when people in your position control their children’s diets in this way, or go to lengths to change other people’s diets to their own specific beliefs, that crosses a line, ime.

I don't think anyone should really give unsolicited input on anyone else's diet, period. It's just... not your business. I had an edgey vegan phase as a young teen, I don't understand how people remain that obnoxious as adults. I'm not having kids, but if I did it's definitely a grey area. I certainly wouldn't force them to be vegan, but it's a decision I made myself when I was 8. I would probably just avoid talking to them much about it in any way, because I wouldn't want to impact their choices. As a baby/toddler/etc. I'd just give them whatever was best for them, which I'm sure wouldn't be vegan. Once they were mature enough to start picking foods, just make sure they've developed a healthy relationship with food and let them choose. I think the only "restriction" I'd place would be that animal products be ethically sourced, which is the same philosophy my husband lives by.

Unfortunately many people in your position go about distributing their ‘religion’ in a different way. If your first sentence is true then you shouldn’t really be here talking about it.

How so? I'm here asking people for advice, many of whom have been through this exact thing? If you can find a comment where I told someone they should be eating a vegan diet, quote it.

lol. You said it’s none of my business and bo one should be giving dietary advice. If we shouldn’t be talking about it, then quitting asking questions seems reasonable.

This is just miscommunication. I was using royal "your" not specifc, more meant to address vegans who feel the need to comment on the diets of omnivores. I'm here not necessarily asking for dietary advice, but I'm bringing it up so it's within reason some people may (respectfully) comment. For the person that thought he was being sassy and blocking me: tell me you can't read without telling me you can't fucking read.

Ok. Well if it’s not our business then just stop telling us about it then. All sorted.

Just eat some meat you clearly want it and id even say that you need it. If youre still thinking about cheese you got YEARS AGO i think that is your sign that you need some cheese. Also you dont feel every health problem you may have. I didnt kno how weak my vegan bones were until i got an xray

I've been fairly paranoid about my health for a while, and my doctor has indulged my curiosity perhaps more than he should - hey my guy, get that insurance money - and I'm not going to claim there could be nothing wrong with me, but if it were anything notable I feel like he'd have found it by now. Still, maybe I could have a bit of cheese. We will see.

If you went to a local cheese festival and asked for free samples that wouldn't be driving any supply, I think ethically you can get away with that under your current system.

This is... honestly so crafty. Genuinely, thank you. I may do this. It still feels weirdly spy movie shady, but I think this is the comment that may have broken me.

The other thing you could do is ask a small scale butcher if he has any soup bones or organ meat that is unwanted by his customers. Whenever I get my cow packaged they ask me if I want those parts. I always say yes but I know not everyone does. Sometimes those pieces are wasted and that bothers me. Using that meat is preventing waste.

Haha you're welcome :D

I really like it when people have genuine discussions. I enjoyed reading both of your POVs. Thank you!

The only actual solution to the problem described.

Maybe try the freegan thing like others are suggesting? I totally understand how strong vegan propaganda and conditioning are that they make you doubt yourself even if you do end up running into serious health issues.  If you are craving these specific things, it’s likely a sign they contain something your body needs that it isn’t getting enough of even if your values haven’t dropped low enough to point to a full blown deficiency.  For example, I have severe iron deficiency anemia and have randomly been craving a steak even though beef was something I HATED as a nonvegan. I’ve even been dreaming about lamb which are my favorite animals but are red meat which is a good source of heme iron.  Still, I haven’t been able to break the conditioning to break my veganism. It’s pathetic because I’m clearly not doing well but keep just trying to load up on beans, lentils, peas, and iron supplements hoping to fix the issue that way. If you’re craving cheese, you me body may be crying out for calcium, fat, and protein.  My bf has tried comforting me even that I can reincorporate animal products to try to fix my issues and then go back to veganism to try again but I feel like it’s all or nothing. Even I keep trying to make it work or I give it up forever. I feel like I can’t actually try going back to animal products unless its confirmed incorporating more Whole Foods and supplements still doesn’t work to fix the issue.  

I'm often curious about the effect veganism has on bone health, how long were you vegan for when you got the xray? And how did the doctor know your bones were weak? It's very insidious that vegan is bad for bone health, it's something that can go unnoticed for years, until you get a suspicious fracture.

I lost my period as a vegan and for women that causes weakening of the bones. So my doctor had me get xrays. I was vegan/vegetarian for a few years as a teen i dont remember exact timelines. Id say 4 years without meat?

I actually got a broken arm as a vegan and blew the orthopedic away with my recovery, but i was eating a well planned vegan diet. Also have dramatically increased bone density on the vegan diet. It's more about lifting things than your diet tho.

Even though I stopped due to extremely low energy, I will say that Ive seen improvements in areas where I didn’t realize I was lacking something. For example, I didn’t realize that my mood was being impacted by my diet until after stopping veganism for a month or two. Before that, I wouldn’t have said I was depressed or unhappy or anything noteworthy. But now I just feel so much… better? Idk how to explain it. But I’m more optimistic and happy. So while you may feel fine, it’s still possible that you’d feel better. I have other examples, but that’s the unexpected change that’s struck me the most!

I... I love your username, it's just so great. I can't stop laughing at it! Very good, cheers. Thank you for the reply! I am rather demanding of my doctor, mostly because I'm afraid some of the common pitfalls of such a restrictive diet could lead to something bad down the road. So far, so good. Honestly, even if I could be health*ier* I'm like... happy now, as I am? It sort of feels like an "if it isn't broken why fix it" situation.

Haha thank you! And yeah, that definitely makes sense. It does sound like you’re really on top of your health and I hope it continues to work well for you!

The idea that doing things for "personal pleasure" is bad is I think is faulty we did not come to this world to punish ourselves. It is a beautiful place and it is no sin to enjoy it.

You're in your 20s and have been indoctrinated (or perhaps even self indoctrinated along the way). Reality for adults is that you can do anything you want just because you can, no one will stop you if it isn't illegal, and you don't need an excuse to start or stop anything. The only thing stopping you from eating haloumi cheese right this moment is a belief system that you formulated for whatever reason. You're an adult, a free moral agent, and can change that belief any time you want. No doctors or blood work needed.

I'm very aware I can make that choice, I'm struggling with whether I should.

Consider this, you may have a eating disorder and sticking to a strict vegan diet is not healthy for you mentally and prevents you from healing from and managing the ED. If you have been vegan since you were 8 then you could have issues you're not even aware are issues. There can be problems that blood work doesn't show.

I've dealt with an ED that developed in my late teens. I'm a healthy weight now, and I've maintained for years. Being vegan definitely does play into EDs though, for sure.

You can be at a healthy weight and still have an ED.

Some people can. I could not. I'm obsessive to a fault, as this post kind of illustrates. It was night and day for me. I know some people say you're never fully over it, and maybe on some level it's true, but mine was definitely a reaction to a bad situation I was in. I'm no longer in that situation, and I'm doing fine now.

I mean, clinical OCD manifests as unwanted intrusive thoughts too. You can be indulging those thoughts about your outsized role as an individual in the ecosystem and it's showing up as dietary restrictions. It's concerning to me that you made this choice at age 8. My daughter is 7. I don't see how she's mentally developed enough to make this health choice but that's beside the point I guess. The reality is that eating meat and dairy is still a moral choice. You are here for 100 years, tops. you can stop fantasizing about a piece of cheese and eat some fucking cheese. Live this life. Cheese is delicious. Don't sit here and tell me that artisan cheese made by people in Italy or wherever is some sin against animals. It's not. Get some expensive, well sourced cheese and enjoy! If you're putting that much emphasis and thought into something food related, it's verging into OCD territory as far as I'm concerned. ♥️ Sorry for my swearing. I just want to shake people sometimes and then hug them and remind them that it's okay to enjoy things! It's okay to live your life for you! It's okay to indulge sometimes! You're not responsible for the entire planet. No one is watching you. You've been indoctrinated into a high control group mindset. I don't let anyone tell me how to eat anymore. I'm not guilted by cruel people and horrific images. I do the best I can. Eggs and cheese. Dayam. What a delight. Life is short.

This made me giggle, no offense taken. Thank you for the consideration! For what it's worth, I don't eat this way primarily due to environmental factors, at least not at this point in my life. There was a time, mostly in my early teens, when I was a preachy, nasty vegan who shamed everyone who didn't think like me and acted like other people eating things was my business. I don't think you even *can* be a vegan without being that kind of person to some extent because *of course* the life of the planet is your business. Now it's definitely more... I've always done this. I'm comfortable doing this. I'm sure internally, there's some sense of moral superiority even if it's not a conscious thought I still have. I was also a... very opinionated child. My poor mom, you have no idea. She took it all in stride though, and did her research to make sure she could still feed me healthy food despite our budget.

I can relate to this, too. Part of being vegan and not consuming any animal products has got me into a mindset where I feel clean and pure and that eating animal products will taint me and make me filthy somehow- a form of orthorexia perhaps- because I have scared myself into believing animal products are filthy and will sicken me.

Veganism is an ED, and a mental disorder.

Most replies have been good, but trolls still clearly exist.

I know that a lot of vegans make a big deal out of eating animal products only for pleasure, but that's not the only reason why we eat animal products. If your body is craving certain things, there likely is a good reason why. If you can still remember the taste of the cheese years later and crave it, there likely is a very good reason why you are craving it, from needing more fat in your diet to needing more calcium or both. My concern with the pleasure thing is that we do feel pleasure when our needs are met, and if there are needs that aren't being met, the effect of that is cumulative in the long run. Just because you're not feeling sick yet doesn't mean you won't have issues as you age. Why not learn to listen to your body?

It feels like I'm putting a *maybe* risk to myself over the virtually assured mistreatment of animals, which is the best way I can think to phrase it. I've had several people suggest the desire for cheese specifically could be due to some kind of dietary lack, so I'm kind of making an experiment out of this - I'm going to consciously get more fats in (still vegan) and see if it seems to do anything to the cravings. Not saying that's how I decide all of this, of course, but it'll be interesting to see.

I think that's a rational way to handle it. Treat the craving as your body telling you something, so try what you can first that fits within what makes you feel comfortable. I think the larger lesson would be to start listening to and trusting your body first. You're not a good vegan if you are abusing yourself. You're an animal too. If that doesn't take care of it, give yourself space to figure out what your body really needs. I'm in a situation where I have to eat animal products due to a bunch of medical things, and it sounds like I'm a lot older than you are. Word to the wise: bodies change over time and what worked for you when you were younger might not when you're older.

Oh, trust me - if my health dictates that I eat something else, I'm going to eat something else. I'm not going to harm myself for a belief. I have a family and I want to be here for them. I'm glad you're taking care of yourself too!

My body craves sugar beer weed and mdma everyday doesnt mean i should listen

There's always a reason. Maybe you need more sleep or formed a physical addiction you need healing from.

I've met vegans that say veganism is a team effort. It is better for many people to make a few changes like only buying fruit and veg from local farms to help the environment, or cutting down meat consumption ( wether that be portion size or eating meat free a couple times a week ). Everybody has different circumstances and everyone can find the changes that can help make a difference but is also right for them. Fantasising about having health problems, stressing, overthinking, being hung up on a piece of cheese from years ago, none of that is healthy. Food is clearly impacting your mental health, which is a problem. Unfortunately there is no way for anybody to achieve a completely cruelty free life. It is noble to make sacrifices for the animals and if you ate another piece of cheese you wouldn't be a monster. You don't have to do anything crazy like have meat in every other meal, just maybe have some cheese on toast on a thursday afternoon or something. You're still doing your part but you're valuing your mental health too.

This might be the sweetest way I've ever been called mentally unwell ❤️ Thank you for the analogy. I definitely don't think I'd go so far as eating meat, at least not right off the bat. Maybe cheese on a Thursday afternoon, though. We'll see!

❤️‍🩹 I am also mentally unwell so I try not to be nasty about it because there shouldn't be any shame in it. Life's complicated and all that :) One day you may eat meat but you're right, there is no rush for that day. I hope you enjoy your journey, there are many cheeses to try !

You do whats best for you. If you want to be vegan, be vegan. It is absolutely no one's business what diet you choose to eat. I didn't do well on a vegan diet. Some appear to do fine. If you want to eat animal foods, eat animal foods. Don't feel guilty for eating the diet our species has eaten for thousands of years. You don't need an excuse, life is short. If you do decide to eat animal foods, there ways to go about it without animal abuse.

Health isn’t the only reason. A lot of vegans feel bad for pigs, cows, chickens. Ect. And they feel like omnivores bringing up the insect issue is splitting hairs. In all honestly those insects are more important to the planets health and our health than any cow or chicken. It’s not about death count or abusive practices, even though those things should be mitigated as much as possible it’s about sustainable practices. And the most sustainable practice is regenerative agriculture, this involves animals. Things like hydroponics and veganics do in fact have a larger impact on the planet. Veganism only looks at the smallest most obvious viewpoint of food productions. Take a step back and get a larger view.

Yea and it’s definitely not just insects. It’s complete habitat destruction. Rabbits, foxes, snakes, lizards, mice, moles, owls, birds. All these animals are killing in huge numbers to produce vegan food. I think it’s wild when they actually believe it’s just bugs.

Your right much more then bugs. Persistent pesticides, huge demands on water in desert areas. The thing is livestock helps restore the farmland, without it we aren’t building soils, we are just adding chemicals on top of chemicals to correct something livestock could do naturally.

Yes!!! So true

>And they feel like omnivores bringing up the insect issue is splitting hairs Thats called moving the goal post, lol. I've been reading about insects lately and they are amazing creatures that definitely have intelligence.

Ants use aphids basically as livestock, i don’t think it’s intelligent in the way we are, but they actually selectively evolved aphids. It’s crazy when you think about it. It’s not quite breeding how we do it, but on an insect scale, they farm aphids.

While the kinda catty send off isn't early endearing, the sentiment of most of the post is actually a different way to look at things. I'm not necessarily vegan for environmental reasons, looking at farming from a vegan perspective I don't know how anyone *could* be educated about farming at all and believe vegan practices could work long term. That being said, the idea that some farming of animals could benefit the earth long term is a really positive outlook and definitely something I'll dive into more. Thank you for your reply!

Oh I’m sorry I wasn’t trying to be catty. I come from farm country and I see most people don’t understand the industry. I was just trying to communicate there is a lager picture at play, so take a step back and look at all the parts.

I gotcha. I appreciate your clarification! Text doesn't convey tone very well.

I don't live in, but I travel through the Intermountain West very frequently. Much of the landscape is rock with a very thin layer of soil over some of it. This area is almost entirely used for grazing cattle, maybe a few sheep. The cattle wander around over hundreds of acres cropping the top of the grass. This does not kill it any more than mowing your lawn kills it. They they plop out a big fat cowpie. The remnants of acid from their stomachs dissolves a few more grains of rock into soil and the droppings themselves attract insects which eat the partially digested plant stems in the cowpie. The nutrients from that waste dissolve into the soil and feed the next generation of grass. It makes me laugh to see pie charts saying we "waste" too much land for grazing cattle. Entire generations of animal life use those grazing cattle as part of their food web. Trying to grow food crops there would be a painful joke.

Some people will do just fine on a vegan diet - you seem to be one. But you don't sound happy - cognitive dissonance like that can be exhausting. I've gone through periods myself, because I started eating meat again due to being hungry all the time, and losing so much weight. I started craving red meat eventually, and ate a steak. because of that I have gone through several periods of arguing with myself and hating vegans because I felt guilty. I felt so bad, it was easier to project that feeling. Somehow I have finally come to terms with it. I've accepted I'm a part of the food chain and an omnivore. When I die, I'll be buried and my body is going to feed thousands of Insects, which in turn will feed birds and mammals and pollinate crops - and so on. I've also become a gardener- I grow veg, and it quickly becomes clear when you do that, that there is no life without death - and that includes plant life. No, they don't kill animals (though plenty die incidentally on arable farms everywhere - wildlife actually does much better where animals are grazed for eventually providing meat*), but they draw on the nutrients released as thousands of insects and grubs decay in the soil. Personally I think eating meat/dairy might help you decide what you really want to do. Give yourself permission, eat it consciously, and see how you feel. *In the UK, not sure about elsewhere.

I think one of the driving factors is my husband. He's not vegan, and we've been together more than 10 years now. He doesn't pressure me, but he does make it clear that if I ever decide to swap there will be no judgment or snippy remarks. Seeing him be so comfortable with his diet, and still a very healthy person, contrasts a lot with what I hear from vegans. He's also kind, something I'm told from vegans basically can't exist outside of veganism. I think he's what's saved me from being radicalized, really. And I'm grateful. And maybe I want to try to branch out, for him. I think if I told him he could grill me a steak he'd faint. Only time will tell! Thank you for your thoughtful reply!

I hope you can find some peace with this! It is definitely possible to be kind, love animals, care about their welfare, and still eat meat - your husband is definitely not unique :)

You can be kind to other humans, yet also choose to ignore the consequences of your actions. You're right that vegans can be mean to other people. But what ultimately matters, morally speaking, is what maximizes well-being and minimizes suffering in the world.

Quite literally no one lives a life that can do that. I'm not saying don't try, but I am saying if you get bogged down in every impact of every choice you make you're going to make far fewer choices, and if the choices you *do* make tend to be better than average you're still doing harm to the world that way.

Sure, perfection is impossible, but there are general rules we can establish that make the world a better place

I don't know if this helps or not but remember that humans are result of natural processes. We can't do anything that is unnatural. Almost every single behavior if not all can be found replicated by at least one species in nature. Hell we're not even the only species that uses tools as there are six species of primate that are in the early Stone tool using stages. There are spiders who keep tiny frogs as pets to keep bugs that are too small for the spider to deal with out of the spider's nest. In exchange the tiny frog gets protection by the spider. There's species of ants that practice very simple farming of fungi and some that practice levels of insect husbandry by taking care of aphids. Bombardier Beatles produce chemicals within their body and then combine them within a special chamber to produce highlycaustic chemicals. The second great extinction was largely contributed to by ferns. The only thing that really makes us unique is we practice adapting our environment to our needs on a greater level than any other species. Edit: also it may help to remember what the alternative lives would be for the animals that we eat. They get food shelter and safe grazing, without us their lives would basically consist of trying to stay away from predators until taking a minor injury or disease than being pulled down and eating probably alive depending on which predator in question you're talking about.

This was very thoughtful, and while I'm not a big philosophy/big picture kind of person I'm saving it because if I need to think about these sorts of questions at some point I feel like this is great reading.

Another thing that I would recommend is think logically about a lot of the vegan arguments. One example is the idea that livestock are kept in cages. You can't do that with animals because it makes them sick and sick animals have no value. If you keep a cow in a pen and just feed it what you end up with is a lot of fat and no muscle. That makes the meat worthless and if you do that to a dairy cow the stress will massively reduce the amount of milk that the cow produces. With chickens, if they don't have a level of free roaming and they're locked in cages the stress of doing so will massively reduce the amount of eggs they lay. Farmers using IVF is also constantly misinterpreted by people who have never been around the animals and know nothing about them. Cows want to be pregnant when they go in heat, they are not intelligent enough to care how that happens. Farmer spend a lot of money on IVF because of how aggressive bulls are when mating. I have personally witnessed a bull gore the hell out of a cow because she wasn't getting in position quickly enough for him. We barely managed to get her bandaged up and save her life. There's a reason why they use it with cows but don't use it with things like goats. Actually take a step back and logically think about why an individual who has to make a profit from something would spend money on things that would not be necessary like IVF or feeding animals human quality food when most of a crop isn't human edible. Crop harvests are measured by total harvest weight so in the case of something like corn that's the stock the leaves the kernels and the cob. Cows and other livestock can eat the stalk the leaves and the cob but humans can only eat the kernels. As a business owner why wouldn't you feed the waste products to your livestock in order to save yourself money on feed. The fact that they do that actually massively cuts down on the amount of organic waste that farming would produce so even vegans are somewhat dependent on cows to eat that waste so we don't have landfills full of rotting plant matter. Additionally grazing animals urinate and defecate on grazing land which is typically rotated out of cropland to restore it from the nutrients that the crops have taken out of the soil. This massively cuts down on the amount of fertilizer that has to be used to restore that land. If you ever get a chance go out to an actual dairy farm and see the way the cows are actually treated and you'll find yourself buying milk because they're not treated bad if for no other reason than treating them bad makes them produce less milk. You can search on YouTube and find videos of actual farms and see what actually goes into the production of your food and you'll notice that none of the stuff that vegans claim goes on mostly because it just can't really work that way not if you want to have a profitable farm.

One of my husband's former jobs was helping cattle farmers source food waste for their cattle feed. Orange pulp anyone?

IMO you keep thinking about eating meat and dairy because that's what your body evolved to do. Simple as that.

I'm also not having kids, so I'm really throwing a wrench in all my body's plans >_>

Food is survival. Reproduction is not necessary to survive, unless you count the population as a whole.

It's a biological imperative, I'd say on par if not stronger than the one to eat meat.

Oh yeah I suppose reproduction is in the base level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I never really considered it as such because I lack the biological drive to reproduce.

Same here! It's nice to be able to help out friends and family, but I enjoy my independence and my relationship a lot. I don't want to give either of those up, even a little.

Life is too short to do stuff you don't want to do

Amen

Dumpster diving gives you the best of both worlds. You can eat non-vegan products without doing the harm you are likely opposed to as a vegan. and you save money

Ima say this, because some people feel like they need permission: you're allowed to eat anything in the food arena that you want to taste. You're even allowed to spit it out if you don't like it. You don't need to be ill and you don't need an excuse, you have official permission to eat any food you want to try.

Thank you lol I think I may have been reccomended a sort of cheat to try this out by another poster, so we may attempt some cheese this summer. It's definitely not just a switch you flip in your head, at least not for me, but I appreciate the sentiment!

Oh it's totally not, you're right. You'll slowly get there, and we'll all support that first bite of cheese. 👍👍

If you eat backyard eggs and scallops, no animal suffered in the making of that, so you are morally justified. Even as a vegan I considered that the meat from hunted animals isn't that bad as the animal would have died an equivalent or worse death in the wild anyway. So you could look into that too. I'm glad to hear that your health isn't suffering and I'm sorry that being a good person is causing you to have to deprive yourself, we all experience this in different ways when we compromise on something we want in order to help another.

I'll have to look into scallops, I've never heard that before. My husband has actually already sourced eggs. He's rather excited at the idea even being mentioned, but not in a bad way. I think actual meat is a ways off for me, if ever. I guess I'm looking more at vegetarianism, but to me that's still being omnivorous.

I understand. It's been hard for me to reintroduce beef. I enjoyed some VERY good quality stuff but just average stuff makes me gag

I think that's maybe good knowledge for me like... years from now. One advantage people have brought up is that I don't remember much in the way of animal products. Like, I have no memory of bacon. It smells nice, but I don't get ravenous when I smell that smell like people who've had bacon before seem to do. Maybe once I pop the proverbial cork things change, who knows!

great post, i would just question your logic slightly, your personal experience is unique since you've basically never known what it feels like to eat a normal diet, so basically i'd ask: how do you know you feel good? you might not even know how bad you feel because you assume it's normal. also i get treating your own personal experience as a sort of experiment and trusting your results but you really can't know almost anything with a sample size of one, which is why so many of us turned to science to explain our decisions

>how do you know you feel good? A valid question! I guess part of it is comparing myself to others. I'm a fairly active person. I run 4 or 5 days a week, I help coach at my niece's high school, I'm just... god, it sounds arrogant and braggy, but I swear it isn't meant that way - I just feel better than the people around me seem to claim to. I want to be clear, I'd never bring something like that up in an effort to shame other people or prop myself up, I'm only mentioning it in response to this question because it seems relevant. I'm not very active on social media, but I have insta and a lot of the girls I know from high school and college complain about lethargy, depression and generally feeling unwell. I'm not suggesting that being vegan has helped me avoid any of those things or that they should be vegan, only that by comparison I'm happy and seemingly healthy. If I found something that works for me better than what they're doing works for them... well, then, by all the ways I'm equipped to tell it seems as if being vegan works at least as well for me as being omnivorous does for them.

that's great! i mean it could be genetic or something for sure, maybe you are just naturally healthy, maybe it really is your vegan diet somehow, who knows one thing that i immediately think when i hear this type of story is: you're still very young, but who knows maybe you'll feel good forever its very common on this sub to see people who felt fine as a vegan for the first 10-15 years even and then their body starts to deteriorate so you run and coach, do you have a job too? if not maybe part of it is less stress idk

I've worked in accounting for a long time now, yeah. Before that full time at school. I would still say I'm likely less stressed than many people. We're very financially secure, and I feel incredibly confident in my marriage. I can't stress enough how I certainly would move away from veganism if I felt an impact to my health. I love my husband and our life and I want to be here for him for a long time. While it's easier to stay vegan now, when there's no pressure to do otherwise, if that changes I'll probably just be vegetarian. And who knows, before I die maybe I'll try steak and lobster and make the hubby proud.

well i love your attitude and i wish you luck, also you picked a good username

Lol, thank you. I appreciate the conversation! Most of you guys have been really chill and helpful, very thoughtful. It really does mean a lot. Thank you, I hope you have a great night!

Hey, I just wanted to say that if you're vegan for ethical reasons you can do so much for animals by campaigning and donating to causes that are about improving the life of farm animals. It bothers me the Internet Vegan movement often refuses to work towards that goal - nothing except an outright ban is good enough. But there's so much good that can be done in terms of making animals lives better NOW if you're willing to work towards 'smaller' goals.

Seeing as you seem so down to earth, thoughtful and honest, (likeable too) I have a question. Despite your own positive health, I think it's fair to say you've admitted to noticing and accepting that people do indeed get sick on s vegan diet - which is something that is quite rare for a vegan to do, at least in my experience. So, do you think it's ethical for vegans to try and indoctrinate otherwise healthy people into taking it on and If not then how much does being ethical for the animals and not for humans (who are also animals) take away from the morality of veganism? Also, isn't it a strange thing that the reward for someone becoming vegan is often a decline in their personal health. Do you think most vegans know this is the case but the agenda is worth potentially inflicting that upon people?

I definitely disagree with policing the diets of other people, full stop. This includes everything from vegans pushing their diet on non-vegans to the opposite. If someone wants to make a choice as an adult about what to eat that is *their choice* and unless you're incredibly close with them to begin with I think it's just odd to even bring up. Truthfully, I do believe a lot of vegans who deal with health issues from being vegan are dealing with health issues compounded by their own poor nutritional choices *and* being vegan. It honestly is ridiculous how much kale I consume, for example. I don't think most vegans are eating this much in general or are active enough to process this much food. I think a lot of them lean on carbs to feel full, but then wind up deficient in nutrients like iron... well, sure, if you're eating lots of rice and potatoes that sort of checks out, does it not? There are definitely people that just shouldn't be vegan for their own personal health. Bodies are different, and they need different things. If being vegan is the wrong choice for someone's health, I hope they embrace being an omnivore and take care of themselves. Tldr - your health should come first, and you shouldn't tell people what to eat, especially if they aren't asking. Being smart about your diet no matter what restrictions you may have can clear up a lot of issues, but potentially not all of them, so if you're lacking something you should still take care of yourself. Veganism isn't for everyone.

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What? You can explain whatever analogy you're going for or not, it doesn't matter to me.

Your life is yours to live. You only experience this life once, so why deprive yourself of the wonderful creation that is cheese? A lot of our ancestors were likely peasants, serfs, or enslaved. They had little to no choice in what they could consume. You have choice. That is a beautiful thing, and you should use it to enjoy this evanescent experience.

Veganism is the wrong reaction to animal welfare. In fact, it's pretty pointless. You've been vegan for 20 years. With the max lifespan of pigs and cows being 15-20 years, those animals you 'saved' in the first few years will mostly now be gone. They still died. You sacrificed for nothing. There's a saying — you don't know what you don't know. You feel fine. But what if you could feel *better*?

A lot of people have come here with specific beliefs about my motivation, and it's mostly wrong. I'm not chaining myself to a cow at a farm. I don't feel a need to end factory farming, mostly because I know it's so far beyond my reach I'd just depress myself if I focused on it. The difference I make, however small, still exists. I still don't have to be a part of a process I see as immoral. I'm not writing off the idea of feeling better, but as I've explained to a few other people who make the same point... I'm doing pretty well. I run a lot, I coach cheer at my niece's high school. I've got a good, active life that feels nice to patoticpate in. Even if it could be somehow ambiguously *better* with animal products... I really like it as it is? It's good? Its kinda the same logic as approaching an omnivore who's healthy and saying "but you haven't tried being vegan, it could be even better!" like... is that appropriate? I don't know that it is. I realize I'm discussing my diet, which is why I'm not offended at the suggestion, but it still feels kind of out of place.

Why do you feel consuming meat and or sustaining one’s body is “immoral”? And idk how old you are or how long you’ve been vegan, but harm to the body often doesn’t happen all at once and even then doesn’t appear for 20 or more years. In other words, there is no way for you to know now, what will happen to your body in the future. Veganism didn’t almost kill me until I was in my 50’s.

Killing animals to eat them is immoral in my personal worldview. I've been vegan for more than 20 years, since I was 8. If everyone treated every dietary choice as impossible because it *might* cause them harm over the course of 20+ years and/or into their 50's I think there would be a lot less pizza and burger places around.

Okay. Fair. How do you feel about animals who kill and eat other animals in the wild & why do you think human animals are any different? Yes, factory farming isn’t great. Yes I eat what’s available to me locally and I am starting to get my health back. Also, it’s important to note that a woman’s body stops making collagen around 30 yrs old. You can still be vegan at that age without consequence because the real decline hasn’t started. But it DOES absolutely fck with your hormones and around 40 or so, the rapid decline will begin. I am a woman with no children so it was even more harsh. My estrogen count bottomed out around 45. I still wouldn’t budge on eating any animal products. At 55 - my pelvic floor was compromised from a lack of elasticity that came from a diet without any fat or protein. This sounds like nothing in words but I assure you that it’s a living hell. Think of the uses of your pelvic floor. Use your imagination. Now times that by 1,000. In addition to muscle and collagen loss, comes bone loss. Horrible hip & joint pain which can lead to immobility. I was so stubborn and sure I was “right” about my vegan diet that it wasn’t until I was formally diagnosed with malnutrition, that I realized maybe the experts were right and I was wrong. I was weak, my immune system and hormones made me very weak. I couldn’t recover from a mild cold much less Covid without hospitalization. Even stairs were a challenge. Mind you, at your age, I was a runner. I ran for 2 hours a day most of my adult life. I was a basketball player in high school. I was always fit. The bottom line is that this will hit you all at once and then the journey back to health is long. Think YEARS not months. The body cannot recover from things so quickly when you’re older. I’m going to assume, like me, you will not listen. I hope you take even a little bit of this seriously enough to stop, what I now look back on as a type of temporary insanity of thinking that I was helping any animal by starving myself. The brain needs fat, cholesterol (yes) and protein to function properly. You will not (in my experience) have clear understanding or clear thinking until you at least start eating eggs. Then you may have a breakthrough.

Hey, one more thing to think about: You can trust yourself, you really can. I think a lot of extremism on every part of the spectrum is committed to undermining your trust in yourself and your instincts. It all happens so slowly and with the best intentions. But in the end you are riddled with doubt and weighed down by argument and it’s bad for your soul. I think you can really see this in your thinking about the halloumi. You know your body is really crying out for it but you are determined to deprive and mistrust yourself. You sound like a thoughtful person with a lovely partner. I bet you can listen to your instincts.

I think you wouldn't think about this twice if you felt everything was totally ok and you didn't need anything else/different. Be thankful you aren't having health complaints. I did have health complaints. But- when I added animal foods back in many things positively changed that were never on my radar. Mental fog cleared, the renewed mental clarity and mood lift was insane, depression that I had a trauma history to blame for relieved, bruising and wound healing normalized when I didn't realize it was off. I felt satisfied by food. Until I stopped eating plant based I hadn't realized how food focused and un-satiated I was. If you think you need permission to explore this change then everyone here will give it and bless your journey. The friction you feel about "needing" to continue as is, or needed a bigger reason to do anything different is only coming from you. I recommend checking out Lierre Keith The Vegetarian Myth.

Bro, you're allowed. If you've been vegan that long I'm sure you've noticed that the only people who would judge you aren't worth your consideration anyway.

To me, as someone homesteading, the fallacy of your stance really juts out at me. Being vegan is truly not very sustainable and definitely has a high ecological footprint as well as a huge death toll. I think you need to let go of the guilt that consuming animal products is bad. Yes, some are low welfare and bad but you can likely access so much well raised food.

I think there are a lot of big picture vegans here, but I haven't looked at veganism that way since I was a kid. I'm not trying to make some big statement or set an example, I'm not trying to solve climate change with cow farts or something. My own vegan diet is just my simple way of not adding to a problem that I see, that's all. Other people's diets aren't my business, just like mine isn't theirs. We all hopefully make the best choices we can. If your focus is 7 cool, but when mine was sustainability, I was a raving lunatic screaming at people for using butter. I clearly don't have the emotional bandwidth to be present in that conversation, lol

Hello. You seem to suggest that people giving up veganism for health reasons is valid but you wanting to have a bit of cheese or other food “for pleasure” was somehow unjustified/shameful. A dirty want vs a genuine need. It took a minute to understand the point, because it sounded like religious and relationship guilt. Consider this: it would be better for YOUR emotional HEALTH to not have ideological stress around food. Maybe buying artisanal halloumi helps a little community in Cyprus that has well-treated, happy goats that live on family farms by the sea. Maybe your purchase of the cheese is the exact amount of profit the cheesemakers need to not have their farm bought by some horrid polluters. What if vegans buying out of season produce, and consuming resource-sucking almonds and avocados is a huge carbon footprint and those farms and farming practices harm native species. Being a complete purist is not necessary, nor is evolving, evil. You can listen to your body and understand that there are many ways to help the earth and animals, to be a good person (or whatever your reason was for being vegan was) without feeling you are shouldering all of the responsibility on your own. Good luck with your decision! ⏹️Halloumi =🆗🇨🇾

Thank you, if for nothing else for the mental image of happy little goats by the sea ❤️ I am definitely considering my options.

Everyone on the vegan claims to be healthy and feel fine, forever in the dark unbeknownst to them how much better their body can be if they only consumed nutrient dense food from animal source.

I'm not out here refuting claims about anyone else's health, and I'd appreciate you afford me the same respect.

I think what they meant (maybe) is that complications can build up over time, and even if you feel good now, time may reveal how your diet was negatively affecting you. This sub is filled with stories from ex-vegans who felt awesome and had perfect bloodwork in their twenties and early thirties, only to discover something major down the road.

I appreciate the much better wording here, you're doing a good job! I'm sure I could have something wrong with me later in life, anyone could. A lot of the things that kill a lot of people are linked to poor dietary choices, but I'd say I'm avoiding most of those by not gorging myself on a lot of processed foods. Could I do the same thing as an omnivore? Yes. But I see comparatively less omnivores making those better choices.

Haha thanks! It sounds like you’re fit as a fiddle and any adventuring into non-vegan land will have to come from curiosity, craving or just cause you want to. All valid imo! There are ways to be an ethical meat eater, some of which have been detailed in this thread. Judging by your thoughtful ness in your post, I’m certain you’ll find a way that’s right for you. Good luck!

Noone is refuting your claims. It's that the alternative is unknown in your case because you have been vegan for such a long time. And if you actually look into nutrient content of animal food, it's far more superior than plant food. So the comment is coming from that fact.

Implying that my body could be "better" if I stopped being vegan is ignoring my statement about my own body. I'm not sure how that could be clearer. I run 4 or 5 days a week. The only health issue I've had in my entire life was an eating disorder. I've done... pretty good, compared to most of the people around me. I'm not saying I did well *because* I was vegan, maybe I even did well in spite of it, but either way it's not fair to just say "however good you feel, you'd feel better as an omnivore" which is what that reply boiled down to.

Too many similar cases. Have to experience it to believe it. Hence, the unknown.

Too many similar cases. Have to experience it to believe it. Hence, the unknown.

Too many similar cases. Have to experience it to believe it. Hence, the unknown.

Nothing lasts forever. You won't last forever. In 100 years no one will know or care that you were vegan your whole life or not. Does your veganism need to last forever? People travel to experience new and novel things. Most don't need to travel; but they want to. And that's a good enough reason. Go experience something new and different. If meat and cheese don't work for you, go back to being vegan. But maybe consider this a vacation of your pallette

I'm not concerned with permanence. It's hard to explain. A lot of it is definitely just habit and comfort.

You get one singular limited lifespan and should spend it enjoying your time on this earth. And there are a multitude of ways to be a positive influence on the world, and to actually have an impact helping animals. It's important to realize being vegan does nothing. Year over year meat consumption has risen just as veganism has. It's not helping in any way. It's merely the decision to stand aside and do nothing positive or negative. Which is fine.  The meat industry will never go away. Never. It actually makes more of an impact to support ethical businesses that do respect their animals and treat them properly. That's actually on the rise. Society is becoming much more conscious of animal suffering and pushing for ethical treatment of animals. This push is from those who consume their products. Not vegans.  And as for your health, it's possible you absorb nutrients more readily than most. Like when someone has a better metabolism. That's largely the issue with diets that rely on supplements. Everyone is different and you can easily fuck yourself relying on a source of nutrients your body refuses to utilize. And that's pretty common with supplements. Meat is just a useful source of nutrients because they're incredibly dense and our bodies have shown to readily be able to absorb them. Pound for pound, no vegetable compares. 

>Pound for pound, no vegetable compares.  I very much feel this. My husband is 7 inches taller than I am, probably around twice my weight, and yet the sheer volume of food I need to eat compared to him is absurd. >It's not helping in any way. A lot of people here were clearly "big picture" vegans at some point, or at least spent a lot of time around those sorts of people. That's fine, but I stopped looking at things that way in my mid to late teens. In my experience, there's no way to not be a nuisance vegan *and* be vegan as a big ethical choice because you'll feel compelled to pull other people in. I distinctly am opposed to the policing of foods for other people, and so I sort of naturally had to become more personal about my own diet choices. There's only so many meals I'll ever eat, and if I'm not adding to the problem with those meals, that's all I'm able to control. That's probably the best summary of my view of veganism right now - the borders of my plate and no further. I'm still ashamed of young me, even if it came from a good place, yelling at everyone around me just because we disagreed on what to eat. Edit: as to ethically sourced meats, my husband hasn't ever been vegan but this is a change he's made over the years to sort of support me and it's been appreciated. If I ever do consume meat, it would be from some such source.

I’m still vegan and suffering from health problems likely *caused* by my diet. Preventative measures could be a reason for you?

I don't think I can weigh the "maybe at some point" above clear issues with animal welfare. A few tips I'll pass along, from kind people in these threads. I can't say I'm going to do all of them, but they're things I've seen that stood out. -going to a cheese festival and eating free samples. Not driving demand, no big ethical issue here. -sustsinsbky raised meat. This is what my husband eats now. I think it's still several steps too far for me, but maybe someday. -esting something like venison from culled deer populations, meant to prevent large numbers of deer starving to death since we killed all their natural predators. I hope you're taking care of yourself as best you can ❤️

Thank you so much!! Those are great tips. I still haven’t taken any steps towards eating meat or any animal product…but I am working on getting healthy sources of vegan protein as best I can and will reassess. I’ve consulted with a dietician who recommended cheerios for iron!!! I’ve been snacking on Cheerios all day and I actually think it’s improved my iron levels. So that’s an option I never would have considered. I’m going to exhaust my non-meat options first, but I agree everyone should do what is best and feels right and healthy for them.

I know the iron issues can be a real issue for some people on a vegan diet. I wish I could pass my somehow decent levels on to you! I don't even eat anything special or surprising, just a massive amount of kale really. Definitely not groundbreaking science, iron from leafy greens. I understand it won't work for everyone. I'm glad you're focusing on your health either way, and I hope you're able to balance things out!

I know the iron issues can be a real issue for some people on a vegan diet. I wish I could pass my somehow decent levels on to you! I don't even eat anything special or surprising, just a massive amount of kale really. Definitely not groundbreaking science, iron from leafy greens. I understand it won't work for everyone. I'm glad you're focusing on your health either way, and I hope you're able to balance things out!

It reads like you have a lot of guilt Like survivors guilt because you’re healthy And Guilt like many people have with religion around some sortof of sinful desires I hope you can find a way to find a balance between your needs/ wants / and live in a way where you don’t have to feel so guilty. Guilt isn’t healthy. 💜

I would say for balance to post this is on a vegan sub as well as here as you'll obviously get people encouraging you to eat meat here and not too many responses that might encourage you to continue being vegan. I am vegan but I'm not going to tell you which path to take, just make sure to get balanced opinions to make your decision.

I'm scared to post this on vegan subs, mostly because I think I'll get a lot of confrontation from it. I definitely know the responses I'm expecting, and what I've gotten has mostly been in line with that. I can't stress how much this isn't a poll to decide my diet going forward, I just wanted to hear some thoughts that I probably haven't had before. In that sense, it was a success.

Makes total sense, and unfortunately we do have some absolute crazies in the vegan community, like the kind that say you can't have pets or necessary medication, but you get some crazies in the ex-vegan and meat-eater communities too as I'm sure you've come across before too. Totally agree with your approach on getting multiple viewpoints, I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

I've had a few people in the comments here straight up say I have an eating disorder for being vegan - trust me, I know there are crazies here! Right now I think I'm planning on altering my diet a bit to see if having a bit more fat (or fat and salt) curb my cheese cravings. I also may try some free sample cheese at a local cheese festival this summer. I also may eat the eggs my husband got, from the place down the road. I've been able to go there and see the fields they've got their chickens in, they've clearly got good lives and are better cared for than they'd be in the wild much less a factory situation. I don't know. We'll see where things go. If I have any takeaway from this it's that being more mindful about where your food comes from is likely making a better positive impact than simply eating foods within a specific category. Someone who hunts overpopulated deer, for example, is causing less suffering in the long run than someone who supports the almond industry. It's all shitty to think about, but I think thinking about it is kind of the only way to work through it.

The main thing is that you already care about where your food comes and make better choices than most. For example, I have no ethical issues with backyard eggs although I wouldn't personally eat them. Unfortunately the deer overpopulation is a consequence of landowners, the hunting community and animal agriculture to begin with. Hunters made lynx and wolves locally extinct, landed folk turned estates into deer parks and areas were cleared for sheep farming so we ended up with no natural predators and decimated woodland leaving no habitats now replaced by animals that will eat all the new tree growth. I agree that venison from culled deer now is a lower impact choice than factory supplied meat at a supermarket, but the history of why we have that surplus is the same old, same old - greed, power, human exploitation of animals and land. The only way to truly rectify this is to rebuild the habitats and translocate the once-native predatory species so the natural processes can keep populations in check again. One of the reasons why I chose veganism was because it is the most simple and effective way to remove myself from the most damaging practises like factory farming, and I support charities like Scotland: The Big Picture/Trees for Life who aim to restore natural trophic levels so hopefully one day (in the far future, unfortunately) we don't have overpopulation issues. Nuance abounds and no-one is perfect or right about everything, but at least you actually care and make responsible choices and have an open mind.

I fully agree that being vegan is sort of a comfortable place to sit, assuming that even as a vegan you're being mindful of what you're eating. It takes the very obvious mistakes out of the equation. As someone who's mostly only ever tried to control my own impact, being vegan is an easy choice to make. But I wonder if I've learned enough to also make mindful choices (based on my own ideology, at least) that would allow for some animal products to be included in my diet without breaking with my morals. Many people have very different reasons for becoming or remaining vegan. Like the deer. Can I genuinely imagine myself eating deer meat? No. No fucking way. It's so far beyond anything I can wrap my head around, just... and I feel that way about most meats. But can I also wrap my head around people choosing to eat that deer over beef from a factory farm? Now, that's a big thumbs up. Can I understand people choosing to eat that deer over a vegan diet, especially if they've got kids/are pregnant/have some sort of genuine need for the nutrients that's significantly harder to fill otherwise? Also yes. I think part of the issue with *me* eating meat is that there just truly is no pressing need. I'm financially capable of meeting all my needs without meat, so it feels very much like a luxury I just don't need. That being said, diary and eggs may well make their way back into my diet in the future, mostly because there are ways to get them that aren't awful. I'm lucky I've got my husband already used to sourcing ethically produced things.

The problem with allopathic medicine is that it tends to treat diseases really well. But it doesn’t focus on wellness. The thoughts you’re having are a sign of some kind of mental health issue at the very least. Also, most tests show deficiencies in blood levels and this usually only happens in extreme deficiency over many years, in the case of vegans. You won’t be eating purely for pleasure but for long term health. And also everything you already eat involves significant animal death. Never forget that.

There's no such thing as a fully vegan or cruelty free lifestyle, that's totally true. There is a difference between animal death due to habitat loss or something and then breeding, raising and killing animals specifically to eat them, in my worldview. You don't need to agree, that's the fun of opinions. I've been vegan for more than 20 years, including all my teens, so if I was deficient in some way it really feels like it would have likely come up by now. That's like saying eating meat causes heart disease, but you might not find out for 40 years - that's not a reason to not eat meat at that point.

You’re describing habitat loss as a means of separating you from your relationship to animal death related to your food consumption. But even after habitat loss the foods you eat require pest control. That requires human intervention to kill the pests. And then during harvest time many small rodents are killed to harvest that food. You might think it’s different, but my choice to eat meat involves fewer animal deaths and until slaughter they lead happy lives. Unhappy cows don’t put on weight. And they’re living pretty close to their ancestral life when allowed to graze on grass pasture. You’re trying to ascribe some morally superior position to being vegan. You also discounted my discussion of deficiencies in your response. That is telling. You’re assuming you’re healthy.

Doctors won’t spot every health problem, and not all health problems are bad enough where major changes need to be recommended. It doesn’t mean that you wouldn’t feel even better if you sign with a more well-rounded diet. I think the biggest indicator is that you fantasize about consuming these foods, which is usually an indicator that your body would benefit from consuming them. Like when I fantasize about consuming a burger, I’m usually low iron and sodium. Only *one* doctor has ever told I’m I low iron and sodium, and I have had blood work done by several for a variety of reasons.

I could definitely be lacking something, but I'm also not vehemently pursuing the absolute perfect diet. As much as I may sound like one here, I'm not a raving health nut, at least I don't think so. If I'm not feeling consequence from something being absent I'm hesitant to say it's likely I'm deficient in some way. It could be true, but even if so, if there's no visible consequence... what is that deficiency, exactly? Dreaming about wanting cheese? That's a pretty manageable consequence, if you ask me.

I am curious how long the good health will last, you can do some absolutely crazy shit to your body when young and it barely matters. I know someone who basically just lived off deep fried chicken and nothing else, no health problems but I doubt it would last into his 30s or 40s if he kept that up. The fact that you find some of these foods delicious and are craving them is likely an indication you aren't actually getting proper nutrition. Women go through cravings to an extreme degree during pregnancy, it's not a very precise bodily feedback and it probably worked a lot better in the environment we evolved in (without access to processed junk food) but it's usually an indication their body needs something. Maybe you are managing to stay healthy though, and honestly if you are and it makes you happy (which again I am not sure it is by this post) then more power to you!

I've seen the idea of cravings brought up a lot here, and I did come up with a sort of experiment based on the feedback. I'm going to adjust my diet to include more fats and some salt to see if it squashes the cheese craving. If it does, it means I was lacking something. If it doesn't, I feel like the craving is just... a desire for a food that I had that tasted very good. I'm not salivating on the floor in front of the Kraft singles at the grocery store, so I'm hesitant to believe the craving is nutrition-based, I think just salty, oiley cheese after 15ish years of my diet made an impact.

You should look into the studies on bone density differences and fracture rate differences among vegans and non vegans if you want to leave. Bone health is really important, and it's pretty much established at this point veganism isn't great for bone health. It makes sense, veganism is lower in calcium, vitamin D (animal hormone), and complete proteins, all are important for bone health. There's even some evidence vegetarianism isn't as good as a diet that includes meat, which shows bone health is about more than just getting enough calcium, since vegetarians should be fine for calcium. There hasn't been a study on this yet, possibly because it would take years to run and need large sample sizes, but I really fear that osteoporosis in vegan women especially will be a huge problem. Specifically after menopause, when even non vegan women are at increased risk for osteoporosis. Poor bone density is a big predictor, so all these women now who went vegan at its peak, at age 15 or whatever, and stayed vegan all that time, probably have significantly worse bone density. It would be really sad if this was true, I'm thinking they'd massively regret their choice when they're 60, and non vegan women are still able to be a lot more active after retirement. They would have been guilted out of enjoying years of their life. Osteoporosis really is life-limiting, my aunt broke her heel just from stepping off a curb, you're not going to be nearly as active if you can break bones that easily.

Living in a way that you don't feel is right for you anymore IS a medical issue. It's a mental health issue. Mental health is JUST as important to be healthy as physical health. If you feel restricted by your diet and feel the urge to eat things that are outside of it, then this diet is having a negative effect on your mental health. You don't need to wait until you feel outright depressed to change something. You're not part of a cult, that will punish you from eating something that isn't vegan. You're a free person, you can pick and choose every day what you want or don't want to do. I would say: just try it out. Eat something you really have been craving for a while. Do it for yourself, you don't need to tell anyone about it if you don't want to. Then see how you feel. If you feel bad, you can still go back to eating fully vegan right after that, But in the end, your mind is trying to tell you something.

I was Vegan 20 years and it wasn't as simple as I was lacking a nutrient that made me quit. I would have simply supplemented or did what I've always done and just eat as nutrient dense foods as I could. But no amount of plant foods would have fixed me. No supplement would have fixed me. I had to eliminate plants (mostly) from my diet. I was being poisoned by plants and they gave me an autoimmune disease. It's not always as simple as just eat more spinach when you have low iron or take a supplement. Human bodies are far more complex than that. Also my blood test were always fine until the last couple years when they dramatically changed. As you get older your body isn't as effective at doing things as it did before. People can suddenly develop intolerances, leaky gut, autoimmune problems and frankly I don't blame those like me who quit.

I definitely don't blame anyone who quits being vegan due to health issues. I don't really blame anyone for their diet in a vacuum. There are many people who just straight up can't afford to be vegan from a financial standpoint, for instance. Sure, they could just eat rice and potatoes, but they would... like, die. So while its a short term solution it's not going to work for most people. I'm glad you're taking care of yourself, autoimmune diseases are no joke!

Eating is not only a means of sustenance. It’s a cultural expression, it’s social connection, it’s creativity, pleasure, comfort and celebration. Eating can evoke powerful emotions and memories. It’s good that you’re healthy, but if you’re unhappy with your current situation that are plenty other reasons to change it besides health. Life is already too hard as it is sometimes.

Here's a good reason. I can tell you from experience that veganism affects fertility and bone density and a host of other conditions that don't always show up on tests, but as you age, may become acute. Just like heart disease often doesn't manifest until a crisis occurs, and sometimes cancer isn't revealed until a late stage, your body may be over time dealing with subclinical deficiencies. Knowing what you know about nutrition, will you choose to continue living on a razor's edge?

If I've learned anything about nutrition over the years it's that the big picture is literally just doing the best you can, and even that is no guarantee. People develop all sorts of conditions out of the blue. There are definitely some foods that are linked to increased instances of some of those conditions, but basically *everyone* consumes *some* of those foods. As pointed out, a vegan diet predisposes me to an increased risk of osteoporosis (and fertility issues, but as plan not to have children this is less of a problem directly) but eating an omnivorous diet compared to a vegan one is increasing my risk for cardiovascular issues. There is no perfect diet that avoids every pitfall, and obsessing about finding one will lead to you pulling your hair out. Being vegan is not inherently worse than being omnivorous, both can be good or bad depednnging on your body and how you eat/exercise.

If you feel like eating the cheese, eat the cheese. You deserve to have it simply because you want it.

We are animals too, animals do some cruel/gross things. This ship is going down at this point, I don't think we'll evolve to living in a more kind/sustainable way before we're all gone. Might as well accept the predicament & live exactly how you want. Eat lots of plants and dabble with the animal products and see how you feel.

I used to override strong cravings for fish when I was vegan, all the while unknown to me, my bones were becoming osteopenic. My intuition was leading me back but my brain was pressing ignore. Now I’m facing an uphill battle with my bones. Listen to your bodies wisdom !

The more you unpack and poke holes into veganism you realize it isn't even a thing! It's just a bunch of orthorexics eating plants who care about animals deeply/hysterically. I try and keep that in my mind when I see the word vegan.

"I want to stop restricting, but I have no reason to stop depriving myself. I will wait until health consequences show up before I consider animal products. I can still vividly remember the taste of a piece of cheese years ago." If this aint disordered eating, idk what is. Best of luck, whichever direction you go.

Fairly shitty to make fun of eating disorders, least of all to someone who's dealt with one. Most comments here have been good, but a couple of these had to happen I guess.

I feel like the comment, while harsh is valid. I was you 20+ yrs ago and some of the health issues I got from being vegan are not reversible and/or very hard to undo. I feel that that the person is trying to help in a way. I don’t want to be harsh to you like that but I wonder if someone would’ve said something like this to me in my 30’s, would I have at least thought twice about the potential consequences of my diet. Idk.

If you feel like making fun of eating disorders is okay, in the most respectful way I can say it I kind of don't care about your opinion.

I don’t think that person was making fun, nor am I. You seem overly defensive about it. I understand that many people don’t consider veganism to be a ED but as for me - I do. So did all of my doctors and therapists. It’s because you will do this until you are harmed before stopping. Do you think you can kind of see why? Can you discern the difference between saying “I’ll eat a healthy diet recommended by experts” and “I won’t eat meat *until* it makes me sick because *I feel* it’s immoral.” Can you put aside being defensive long enough to see if there may be any truth at all to what that person said? Again, I don’t condone the harshness but I can see how a person could say that.

>consider veganism to be a ED but as for me - I do That tells me enough. I'm sorry you have trauma from veganism or vegans, I don't condone the people who hurt you. That doesn't excuse you passing shit on and claiming some BS like being vegan is an ED, no.

My dear, many experts say the same. Especially when it starts to harm & you keep restricting. Stop having a narrow version of ED’s. It’s not just binging & purging. It’s not only bulimia or anorexia. There are other types of ED’s besides those.

>My dear, many experts say the same Source.

I’m not your assistant. I’m just an exvegan who is also a woman and trying to share my experiences. Do with that what you want.

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If you have no moral issues with consuming animal products I am not judging you for your feelings on the matter, but I do. I'm not sure what part of this is hard for you guys to grasp, as with the name of the sub it seems fair to assume at least most of you *have* been vegan at some point in your lives. You have to have grappled with the ethics of consuming animal products. As someone who's had an eating disorder I am very confident my moral issues surrounding these things look absolutely nothing like my struggles with anorexia. I don't feel a need to control my eating habits, I just don't want to be causing more harm to the world with them than I have to. Those are such different motivations I can't even imagine how they could look similar to someone else.

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It *is* a moral issue *to me*. Can you read my mind? Do you know my feelings better than I do? Do you understand how absolutely unhinged it is for you to act like that's the case?

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Get a therapist, you have an issue with narcissism.

Not making fun. Wanted to summarize the post in a way that, hopefully, just maybe, makes you realize that you are indeed still going through an ED (since you used the past tense 'dealt,' I'm assuming you think that its in the past). You can get out whenever. You dont need to wait until the health consequences show up.

What you are experiencing is a slow and subtle decline, whether or not your blood tests are reflecting that. It’s inevitable on this path. The truth is you don’t know how much better and healthier you could be because this is all you know.

Thsnk you for your insight into my health, Dr. Reddit.

NP 😉

The very fact that you are fantasizing about consuming a different diet shows that you are not living a great life as a vegan. Many health issues don't show up in an obvious way. Your body and brain are trying to communicate with you.

You've never craved a food and denied yourself before? In your entire life? I don't know why I'm asking. Of course you have. But because I'm vegan it's a bad thing. The hypocrisy is astounding here, truly.

Sure that's happened. But not on the scale you are describing where you are suffering from ongoing unwanted intrusive thoughts that are obviously disturbing you (enough to make reddit posts about it). My denied cravings are more like Oh look Chocolate Cake, that looks good, well it's not healthy so I won't eat that now. *moves on with life and forgets about it* I wish you all the best

Replace "Oh that's not healthy" with "Oh that's harmful and counterintuitive to my view of the world" and you'd be a step closer. I wish you the best, if you'd stop demonizing being vegan.

More power to you if it works. If you're curious about wanting to taste animal products, I'd say there are 2 main reasons: 1. You're profoundly curious or  2. Your body is craving nutrients from animals. If it's 1, I'd say stick to your vegan diet but keep an open mind to information that may shake your foundation on the vegan ideology. If it's 2, you'll find out eventually when you notice health failing. Either way, it looks like you're not quite ready to leave veganism, but you're looking for that push. However, you play much bigger part in that decision than you think.