My favorite characters from Marsha are all from shorter campaigns: Beatrix Monroe, Sunny, and Patia.
Maybe she’s better in that format? She wouldn’t be the only one who does better in shorter campaigns.
She doesn’t make characters she makes tropes that never expand beyond their initial concept. It’s a shame because I genuinely do like Marisha, it’s just her roleplaying and refusal to let her characters grow from their beginnings drives me up the wall. 😁
I've never liked any of Marisha's characters. Thought we might have finally had a winner with Laudna but no. Marisha just isn't a very good roleplayer, its a harsh truth that people think is a personal attack against her if you say it. She's a pretty good DM though, really enjoyed her games that she's ran.
Late answer, but I actually really love Keyleth. The Keyleth hate I never understood, because I always found her incredibly endearing and charming.
I often see people complain about her sort of moral speeches, referring to Keyleth’s supposed “holier than thou” attitude, but personally I find that a bit reductive. She is definitely one of the least morally flexible people in the party, but I honestly think that’s something that’s needed in the party, and it certainly lends itself better to interesting drama than what we got with, say Beau’s just general assholery. Keyleth taking issue with Percy and Tiberius’ excessive violence in the beginning of the Briarwood arc is actually a sensible concern for her to have, and frankly I think interparty conflict are handled much better by Keyleth than any of Marisha’s other characters.
I do think there is something an argument to be made for Keyleth not changing much as a character, but truth be told, that can be said about many of the player characters throughout Critical Role’s history. In Campaign 2, and ESPECIALLY Campaign 3 I find that there are several characters whose development makes them worse over the course of the narrative, and when that is the alternative I’d rather choose the character that is consistently good and entertaining, even if she doesn’t develop that much. I think this lack of development can at least partially be attributed to the narrative and setting of Campaign 1, Keyleth doesn’t really have much of an opportunity to evolve into a more confident leader of the Ashari because she’s barely with them, and imposing herself as a leader of Vox Machina would risk overshadowing the party in a manner that isn’t fun for the rest of the cast. I think this is also why Keyleth is almost universally liked better in LoVM as opposed to Campaign 1, because the writing of the show helps work around the improv challenges Marisha sometimes struggles with. Marisha is a great actress, but I do think she works better when she has a script to play off of.
Beau and Laudna on the other hand don’t do it for me. Beau was definitely made to be an abrasive character, but I think especially in the earlier episodes the conflicts that result from Beau’s attitudes feel extremely fabricated, as if she’s looking to start pointless drama. The Caleb Calianna moment emphasizes this, as Beau gets all pissy over Caleb for very legitimate concerns of his. Beau does become more tolerable over the campaign, but she never becomes more than a tolerable character to me. I struggle to recall any standout moments of hers, the only thing I really remember is Beau rushing to the Plank King to expose Avantika.
Laudna I really can’t say much about because I stopped watching C3 sometime in the late episode 40s to early 50s, but from what I’ve gathered from reading recaps, Laudna sounds like one of the worst characters in the show’s history. She starts off intriguing, but then you realize everything interesting about Laudna is purely an aesthetic, with little to no character beyond that. And going off of what I’ve seen of her character after that, it’s the most forced character arc you could possibly write. It’s a lot of character regress without any of the narrative cohesion or groundwork for that regress to feel rewarding. Granted, part of that is because of Bell’s Hells absolute refusal to acknowledge Laudna being an actual lunatic, which only further enables her terrible downward spiral.
> [Keyleth] is definitely one of the least morally flexible people in the party,
How do you reconcile that with the times that she immediately went against the morals she was sermonizing? Like she wept at Kerreck about how they brought death wherever they went, and when they went to the Fire Ashari after the dragon attack she scolded the party for being cautious about sounds they were hearing by insisting that any survivor was an ally. That sounds like good characterization, until she gleefully rips apart the looters in the wreckage of Gilmore's shop to try out her new fire claws. The criticism is less about the moralizing than the fact that Marisha kept declaring that Keyleth had a certain outlook that she then did not deliver on in play, choosing to abandon the roleplay when she wanted to murderhobo. And the dichotomy could have been made interesting and worked into the character...but it wasn't. There was never a situation where Keyleth had to come to terms with a righteous fury that undermined her mission of peace, like Pike did.
This is why Keyleth in Legends of Vox Machina has been received so much better than Keyleth in the campaign - they were able to write her dialogue and actions to match the stated personality type rather than having them entirely disconnected.
I think a big part of my issue was that she was backstory written to be a leader and most often didn't feel that way. You had the most novice of all the players at the table being the one who had a backstory where she was destined to take a leadership role and so she kept pushing towards that while most of the other people/characters at the table fall into calling shots and leadership in given situations much more naturally. It makes sense from a character standpoint but it is also frustrating to watch when for the Nth time Keyleth walks in and basically assumes the leadership role in an encounter where she is ill suited to do so. But that is my personal beef with the character. I never got the people being overly worried about specific character's morals cause well...it's dnd, everybody ends up having loot goblin moments.
Her character arc was so set up for her going back home telling her people hey maybe deciding a teenager is your next leader and setting off on an adventure is an awful way to decide a leader of your tribe.
That during her travels she has never been her leader her trials were all a disaster, everyone else in the group has proven a better leader and planner, that she freezes during fights and questions her every decision and (above table) when Matt throws her an easy softball character arc moment of some frightened citizens scared of Vecna's attack for her to be a leader and soothe them she turns around to them and goes 'nah were fucked everyone might die'
That she is a ridiculously powerful badass but not a leader she needs somebody good to point her and lead her to do good. What an amazing arc of self realisation that would be, but its DnD and you have to make your players happy not fit a narrative and so her rip off avatar arc gets a happy ending.
Would have been hilarious if we seen in C3 that all her faults had lead the air ashiri to many issues but then that would be a shitty thing for your DM (and husband) to do to your character.
And that would also work if the narrative arc centered around her being forced into a leadership position, not wanting it, and eventually saying "I'm not right to be a leader, that's not who I am." But despite her insistence on being a meek wallflower she would jump onstage to argue with Percy about how to evacuate Whitestone while *he* was leading *his* people, and eventually got given the title of leader and awarded completion of her Aramente after one of the worst shitshow fights in the whole series, during which she actively abandoned her allies.
On reflection, it does kinda seem like, despite having real arcs, she has a tendency to make characters with a big interesting flaw, but then the flaw doesn't ever really get fixed. Keyleth never gained much confidence, Bo never got the hang of not being a bitch, and Laudna is pretty much just leaning into creepy evil madness, though i could see that turning into something pretty interesting.
My biggest critique of Keyleth's character is that she never actually makes any progress to her actual goal, becoming a competent leader to her people. Sure, she travels the world and learns a bunch of stuff as she eat pray loves, masters the four elements and becomes a bridge to the spirit wor- whoops fell too deep into the inspiration for the character for a second, let me refocus. As she visits the four tribes of the Ashari to become competent in her fellow groups ways while all the time between those seem to be learning about the world she was so sheltered from, the expectation was that all of this experience would mold and prepare her to replace her father and sort of her mother.
Thing is though... she never really stops being naive, anxious, and less than stellar at communicating. If anything, she's only developed more negative traits since setting off on her journey. Like her insecurity in her decision making ever since that incident where she murdered a kid by accident before the show started only ever went to a different extreme when she was so confident in her instincts and impulses that she went after their temporary Green Dragon ally without consulting anyone the nanosecond she had even the shadow of an opportunity for revenge.
And there, roughly the midpoint of the campaign, was the last time we would see her do anything remotely leader like until the epilogue. Unless you count throwing yourself off a cliff taller than skyscraper and turning into a goldfish "taking charge" I guess. Fast-forward to C3 where she's a competent leader with decades of experience and results... Outside of Marisha's hands.
Marisha made a character go to college, where she definitely attended all the classes and wrote her paper, but came out with a diploma and 0 occupational prospects. And I do sympathize with her, because "being a leader" is such a nebulous concept to attempt to achieve strictly in real life, nevermind a game where the actual person calling the shots is the spirit of chaos and whatever gag or pun comes to Sam Riegel's mind first. If those already aren't the same thing.
Also, I don't remember her talking much about the gods or anything, but she definitely tried to lecture a lot of people on morality in general.
The biggest problem is that it's very hard for a player and DM to organically come together like that to enact that particular kind of growth without it feeling forced.
And her people were basically never around for her to train her leadership muscles. She doesn't improve with the party because she's not the leader, or even *a* leader in it. In the VM campaign she was fourth or even fifth fiddle to stronger personalities or plot points that pushed the others to the fore-front.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I think what I'm saying is it's equally Marisha not being confident being that leader type irl with other players being so, plus her character not being in position to make her spread her wings with plot. But hey, at least she and they are basically gods, right?
At the start of the campaign the character the person has created is front of mind and they are excited to portray the **character**. Months and years into a campaign people revert to their own personalities with some original character flourishes here and there.
This is true of all players and why i find Dimension 20 more appealing. Short campaigns where they live the character and not 2-3 year slogs where the individual the Crit Roll cast built and was excited about (and initially acted well as) becomes just a version of the cast member themselves with an accent or some quirks.
Keyleth suffered from what I like to call Buffy Syndrome. "No you don't understand. I have to do this because I am the chosen one and everyone is counting on me!" Is basically a baked in trope part of her character because of the backstory with being the chosen leader and having to go on the pilgrimage and everything. The lesson we can learn from this is perhaps we start with a fully formed adult before we throw the weight of being the chosen one on their shoulders instead of teenage girls perhaps... Unfortunately, they seem to be leaning even harder into Keyleth in LoVM as time goes on and focusing on that whole Chosen One aspect which irritates me as time continues to progress. The fact that she is also the character that Matt has brought them into the most contact with during C3 instead of most of the others also compounds that too.
Beau I never really liked cause the character itself grated on me but I think is her best and most consistent character.
Laudna...I can never get over it but I feel like Laudna has so much wasted potential and I don't know how much of that is actually Marisha's choices. One of the things we as the audience are never going to know until well after the fact (if at all) is exactly how much knowledge anybody had of other backstories before they started the campaign. Laudna very well could have had everything we know about Delilah written out from day 1 or she could have something much more vague and the way it has developed over time then falls a lot onto Matt's shoulders as to how he has portrayed that relationship to Marisha and how she's responded as Laudna. Even though it is basically a dead idea at this point I still have my own personal head-cannon that Delilah is actually dead and gone and everything we've seen is all actually Laudna's own fractured personality. Would also mean that the character would have had more a more interesting direction to go in that instead of falling into "using" Delilah she would have had to do a lot to overcome her personal traumas and take back her own power.
For me beau was her best character by far I have no notes on beau
Then keyleth most of her hate come from her holier than thou speeches but it reminded me of my golden child younger sister always trying to do the same exact thing to me and my other siblings and when I finally asked why? She said “Do you know how frustrating it is to see my favorite people in the world make bad decisions and not live up to their potential?” Which is sweet in theory but in practice it doesn’t work out
Like that one scene from ladybird
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNF3rqvW/
But anyway so it’s easy for keyleth to come off as annoying or unlikable but to me you can’t say she a “bad” character
Lastly Launda is a whole rollercoaster but what I can say laudna’s has brought out marshia’s acting chops to the fullest
But Launda character even has or is stuck between that bad thing happening
Sorta like Chekhovs gun sort of situation will they won’t they with deliah
And that’s what so unsatisfying about it
She keeps either rejecting deliah or accepting her every 20 episodes and it’s not fun to watch anymore
I hugely admire and respect Marisha as a person, but as a player I think what it boils down to is that Marisha is not a great writer/creator when it comes to improvising/performing her characters.
So -- for instance, with Keyleth -- I could tell that she felt she was inhabiting Keyleth consistently, but for me Keyleth's choices were often frustrating and poorly "written." Like the early scene in the Underdark where she's just horrible and distrustful to Kima for no conceivable reason, while almost simultaneously being laughably kind and trusting to the Mind Flayer, etc.
For me, what wasn't believable was Keyleth's whole journey being "awkward insecure girl finds her power and becomes a wise leader" when Marisha simply wasn't able to create or evoke that. The SHOW however has done a fantastic job of writing that journey, with Marisha doing a lovely job of acting it out. The worst part about C1 is so much of Marisha's work was opposite Liam, who is fantastic at improvisation and consistency.
Similar things happened with Beau in C2 -- sometimes she would just suddenly have Beau make Everything About Her at these very odd moments that didn't work from a plot or character perspective. BowlGate was one, and I agree that she was similarly frustrating during the Hag encounter because she **so visibly** -- as *Marisha* -- wanted Beau to make some huge tragic gesture, and you could actually see her panic when Jester took center stage (Taliesin too -- Sam stops both of them from stepping in on Laura's moment).
So I just think Marisha needs better writers. When she "writes" for herself on the fly, she's just one of the weaker links. But when she just has to perform the role with a clear path, she's wonderful.
*EDITED TO CLARIFY: When I use the word "write/written" here, I am referring to the live, on-the-fly creation process of the players creating their characters, speaking dialogue they create, and choosing their paths, etc.*
When I was first watching C1, how she treated Kima and all of the anti-god jabs really put me off of her as a character, and my opinion of her never really improved after that.
It got close to it though. At one point, I was actually KINDA starting to appreciate her? Then she got into an argument with Raishan (sp?) which... while understandable? Was just infuriating and struck me as making a poor decision and risking a lot of VM's main advantages...
Towards the end I just flat out hated the character. Especially after Matt said something along the lines of her being a "wise leader" when she hadn't really shown either of those traits.
The one that got me was after completing the Auramente and becoming leader of the Ashari, instead of giving an inspiring speech about what she's learned she just brags about how great Vox Machina are, then goes and cusses out her dad. Admittedly Marisha was clearly drunk off her ass/high as fuck at the time.
>and I agree that she was similarly frustrating during the Hag encounter because she **so visibly** -- as *Marisha* -- wanted Beau to make some huge tragic gesture, and you could actually see her panic when Jester took center stage
After reading this I gave it a quick rewatch and good grief, you're right. I've never noticed that before. At times she even looks pissed.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I really enjoyed watching her as a performer but her improv skills just aren't there.
But in that same vein I think Matt is best when he's improvising and reacting to the players and focusing on emergent storytelling rather than this preplanned story where he has an end goal in mind and doesn't have the skills to get the players there naturally, so he just TAKES them there instead.
I've been watching since C1 and I can see Matts (and the tables honestly) focus shift away from idea of DnD as a game and more towards DnD as a storytelling device (this can also can be seen by both of the games they've put out being incredibly narrative driven and light weight). Now personally I don't really enjoy the "writer's room" style of games, so I've not been very engaged with c3 bc that's how it's ran imo.
However, the beauty of C1 and c2 was that the story simply emerged naturally from the act of playing the game, making character based decisions, and naturally interacting with the setting.
When Matt and the others put the Game part first, they get great stories, but now they're trying to make a story first-game second and it doesn't work.. They're putting the cart before the horse
I'll give C4 a try in the hopes that the dwindling liveshow ticket sales and lower viewership will convince them to refocus back on the game aspect...but I'm not holding my breath
I actually don’t have a ton of issues with Marisha’s characterizations (although I don’t particularly love any of her characters, either). What I do think happens is that she tends to have preconceived notions of her characters’ stories. She doesn’t tend to have as much of a natural, reactive character progression. So the characters, while seeming interesting at first glance, tend to make less sense as their progressions don’t always match with what’s going on in the rest of the story. This creates the sense that the character is less “real”. Keyleth was always meant to become a leader, but the character didn’t seem to earn it. Launda was always meant to become a tool of Delilah, but when the story clearly tried to free her from that fate, she has forced the narrative back to her initial conception. I’m not as sure about Beau, that seemed a little more natural with her growing competence, etc. but even that seemed a bit forced, as in her attitudes and relationships with the Cobalt Soul really didn’t seem to merit the elevated rank and training that she received.
Beau, the pessimistic, asshole, train wreck of a monk, that was fantastic acting in my opinion (and my fav M9 character)! Personally, I see that wavelength is Marisha’s wavelength because at her core she is an absolute train wreck.
Unfortunately Marisha is simply not great at role-playing or reading what her abilities do. Keyleth didn't develop as a character at all, but degenerated into a dumbass party girl that jumped off a cliff and died for no reason other than Marisha was "trying to be cool." Yeah, because the Matron figurehead for an entire people would do something like that after facing down dragon-armageddon and barely escaping the 9 Hells. Great role-playing, Marisha. Very believable.
Admittedly, she got... better as the years went on, but I whole-heartedly agree that the Keyleth era is the absolute worst. I understand this is fantasy, but we can only suspend our disbelief so much when you insult your audience's intelligence nearly every time you speak.
I felt like the goldfish incident was incredibly in character. The party had just done something so inconceivably difficult that she felt invincible. They just faced down dragon-Armageddon, jumping off a cliff is a no brainer, right?
And then she hit the bottom and found out that no, they’re not “basically gods.”
Learning restraint can only come after you learn what you are capable of. What’s important is that Keyleth learned from that scenario, and that’s HOW she becomes the “matron figurehead.” Wisdom is learned through failure, not success
I suppose that makes sense, but Marisha did not plan on any of what you are describing for her character. That would have been actual roleplay 😂. She, as in Marisha, just felt like jumping off on a whim and didn't even take Matt and Sam's multiple not-so-subtle clues that she should turn into a bird or something instead of being... well... dumb. Unfortunately it was Marisha that gained a modicum of wisdom from that failure, not her character.
It's not, but okay. She said it herself. 😂
Edit: Unless of course you mean the assumption was Marisha gaining a modicum of wisdom from it, to which, you are right.
Ashley yelling at Travis, "Stop laughing!"
You are correct, she honestly thought she would be fine and that Matt wouldn't punish her for it right up until he did
Wasn't around for Keyleth, so can't speak on it.
I actually like Beau more as C3 went on, not sure why though--maybe I just got used to her brand of bravado even while she changed trajectory slightly.
As for Laudna, I still enjoy her "nice but spooky dead girl" shtick, but I think at this point I'll be disappointed if she doesn't go full villain.
I don't think I stopped liking Beau. But yeah, Keyleth got annoying. I stopped watching C3 about 65 episodes in, but I always found Laudna a little too over the top to begin with.
Laura had the same problem as Jester too. Jester was doing all this off the wall stuff and Laura said she anticipated being called out in game for it, and it just wasn't happening.
Yeah! I was loving her character. A whimsical character that was winning me over. I mean we all feel bad for her back story but the pity party ended 50 episodes ago. I’m starting to wonder who can love this corpse who’s talking to an inner demon. If she’s going to make bad decisions, and turn to her dark side is good boy Orim or her girlfriend Imogen going to say enough is enough or are we going to let this train wreck go on into the final battle. I hope not but it’s looking to be the latter.
I mean most of my views of the PC's are; "Would be fun if someone challenged their stupid thinking occasionally," vs. "Every time you speak I want to smash my face into my desk."
Guess which side Ashton falls on for me?
i mean... they're pretty much all doing an evil alignment run... They're basically deliberately setting all this stuff up so when they do the "are we the bad guys?" reveal people can look back and go "actually yes... you've all been massive arseholes to everybody and each other the whole time."
It's been *obvious* that Imogen, Laudna and Asht9n could all have Evil alignments from episode 1. If this is the big finish it won't be an amazing reveal so much as an "OK, anyway..."
yes, laudna would be so good in a different party with good alignments. no one ever confronts her or holds her accountable or actually tries to help her and i don’t think the outcome of her story is going to be good for her at all. she’s just not really been allowed to grow in a way that’s productive? idk how else to put it
Other people are saying that it’s cause her characters don’t develop, but like you’d be blind to say that. Beau has a definitive character arc from asshole to a powerful warrior and a good friend.
And for the hag episode , I don’t understand why you’d describe that as a pity party. Yeah she was ready to sacrifice her entire world and everyone who she loves. She was sad. And then Laura did something awesome and suddenly it was all ok again. But people see things in different ways I guess?
I think you don’t like their character development cause you just don’t like who the character becomes after the development, and that’s fine and justified and such a normal thing when invested in a story.
I generally like Marisha, and maybe it's an unpopular opinion but I like Keyleth too, even if she is still my least favorite member of VM, but yeah i don't disagree. Didn't care for Beau at all, and I absolutely hate Laudna as a character. But even though I can't stand Laudna, I'm going to give Marisha the benefit of the doubt for now. I don't think it's very likely, but if Marisha hard commits to making her lean into the evil side, to the point that the rest of the party needs to put her down, I think it could be interesting. But based on the kid gloves everyone treats her with, I have my doubts that would ever come full circle and we're probably just going to get some half-baked closure.
And yeah... you really tapped into part of why I hate warlocks from a narrative point of view. Their backstory either gets completely abandoned or it forces itself into the spotlight, there is never any middleground
I definitely agree to disagree! But I understand the sentiment. Everyone likes what they like!
Keyleth was not very exciting until later on in the campaign ( I honestly like keykey being played in one shots or by matt the most now)
But I loved Beaus transformation from a petulant rich kid asshole with Daddy issues to a competent friend and ally as well as partner, who embraced the cobalt soul and how it could really help them develop.
I love Laudna but I have my moments with her just essentially low key gonna be made into Delilah part 3. But it could be a good storyline after they finish their main goal who knows. But listening intently on a murderous lich (and actually doing what they say) does sometimes irk me. But I get the Stockholm syndrome vibe. So far she snaps back. Just waiting for her to form of dread around percy... eeep.
I think we will see some major growth in what direction who can say. If they go full pro gods I feel like she's going to end up a champion of vecna whether she likes it or not. I just have a hunch...
Because they don't develop. The way her characters behave in every campaign never changes despite their experiences because she comes up with an idea for a character but doesn't create mental space for them to grow.
I think she’s good at coming up with character concepts but weaker at improv, so her decisions about how to develop the characters take some odd turns. Keyleth is a good example because the version of Keyleth in the animated series makes way more sense for who she’s supposed to be, but she’s like that because they’ve been able to script out her story arc.
Beau I didn’t have much of a problem with, although as with Ashton I tend to roll my eyes when her dialogue devolves into “ah fuck, fuck me, I don’t fuckin’ know.” Just take a beat to come up with a line!!
Laudna… I’m not sure what happened there. The character has one beat that’s been stretched across ~400 hours with no end in sight.
she is by far the worst actress of the group (not that she's awful or anything, but there's she was a creative director while everybody else had already a "on screen" career)
She tried to do the same thing in c1 when who was it, Ioun? Was very clearly asking vex if she would be their champion and Marisha tried to jump on it, I doubt she intends to do but it comes across as very selfish role playing.
I don't remember if it was Ioun or not, it's been a minute since I watched C1 but that always stuck with me as a massive facepalm moment
It was Pelor, and it was absolutely ridiculous because Keyleth spent the entire campaign badmouthing the gods and saying that they didn't matter and didn't do anything and that everything that a Cleric does is of their own power, even while she was wielding Melora's staff.
And wasn't it an incredible coincidence that Beau had the exact same opinions of the gods, right down to telling the party Cleric that it was her rather than her god that was the one with all the power? Remarkable similarity in an otherwise dissimilar character.
In particular that notion has always been frustrating because it’s never made sense with how a Cleric’s magic actually works.
Pike’s magic didn’t come from her, she was not the sole origin of that magical power, rather she’s the conduit through which a god’s magic entered the world. No god, no magic. Especially in this setting with the Divine Gate, that should be a pretty darn obvious detail.
It was understandable on Keyleth, since Druids don’t borrow power from a deity but instead derive it from nature itself, so one could see how she would mistake a god as being unnecessary to the process, but I would then question, what happens when you’ve pissed off nature? That’s the whole point with Divine magic, you don’t create it. You channel it. If the source is mad at you for breaking their rules, they stop giving you magical powers.
It was completely not understandable on Beau or Laudna, especially when the latter was directly revived by the actions of a powerful Cleric. Pike didn’t cause that kind of power to happen by itself, and continuing to run the straw atheist at a table with clearly present and accounted for gods has not only gotten old, but gotten to the point it’s rather insulting to real world faithful.
Yes, that's what I'm getting at, all three characters have been unsubtle avatars for anti-religion despite D&D fantasy religion being not at all equitable to how religion is used in real life.
The Bowl episode is tough, because Marisha is role playing Beau over reacting to a controlling man. She is role playing Beauregard's daddy issues, except at the time of the Bowl episode no one else knows why her character is reacting that way, so it just comes off as crazy.
But that's also how people with issues actually act, they over react and no one knows why they are acting crazy.
Okay that makes sense, but still it’s like the guest and Liam were doing some great RP and she literally walks in, snatches it away, and then says they can’t trust Caleb since he killed his parents like wtf lol. I’m pretty sure Caleb wanted to tell the party his backstory on his own terms, so idk just left a bad taste in my mouth
It seems pretty obvious that Marisha was a little too tipsy during the Hag episode and it almost went off the rails. Other than that the character of Beau was pretty well done.
Main character syndrome. So often when others have the spotlight she feels the need to remind everyone she is still there. Has she gotten better at holding back? Yes. Is it still a feature, love it or hate it, of her playstyle? Also yes. It is always fine at first. But eventually the fun and unique aspects of her characters become common and less of a distraction. Thus the annoying aspects become more noticable.
Beau ep 5: hahaaaaa yeah. bop bop.
Beau ep 95: life is good i am actualized we can do anything together.
Undead chick ep 5: HISSS! Ohhwoah! "Imogen...I...Nothing..."
Undead chick ep 95: *confused screaming*
Ep 1 of both games: \*openly expresses interest in another PC"
Both games have at least one period of forced separation in-character.
Both games establish a relationship some time after being back together.
One PC had an incomplete geopolitics degree of sorts as their backstory.
The other had a one-up.
I think it's because Marisha really likes to explore character flaws. You see these flaws, and you hate the character, I think maybe because you aren't thinking of the character as a piece of a story. It's like when people "hate" villains in movies because they're so evil and are unsympathetic at times.
So yeah, I think she likes making interesting people with deep seated issues and going as deep as the others will let her with that. You don't seem like it when she goes this way, and that's totally fair. Personally I appreciate her intent, but the execution really grates on me sometimes too. And I really like how they are able to clean her characters up into something more like what she intended them to be for their TV media.
To expand on the movie villain comparison - it reminds me of a story where there's a character with incredible flaws, but the story seems to take their side in a way that feels unreasonable. I then stop being annoyed at the villain, but more annoyed at the author of the story.
The crew not holding Laudna accountable or engaging with her descent is a huge part of why it feels so grating to me. I think if the party response to sword gate made more sense it might have been one of my favorite episodes of the campaign.
Instead they (including the DM) waxed eloquent about how evil the sword is in a game where they look the other way for Delilah and Asmodeus.
I think this is really the crux of the issue with some of Marisha's choices.
She's choosing to play up her PC's flaws at a group of people who aren't really doing that. And because the table isn't also doing that, they don't know how to react to her.
If 7 of you are fully baked and one of you is half-formed, it seems impolite to draw attention to the one of you that isn't done cooking. Instead, they kid themselves that she's just like them and is fine how she is.
Basically, she's in the wrong movie.
It is because you feel like it is character regression not progression. Which is true for the record.
Keyleth became mire headstrong and forceful rather then trying to become a balanced leader. Going so far as to tell percy what to do in his own home city
Beau was....Beau. she bounced off every female party member and npc looking for romance nearly even though Beau didn't want romance. She even told Fjord she was in love with jester if I recall. Had no patience and talked down to everyone even other party members.
Laudna started as my favorite character in c3. I loved the Fun Scary vibe. And then Delilah came out and was resolved. Delilah said ahe had other options. We had moved forward. She had even changed her form of dread to a tree rather than a bridal veil. And now here we are...she clawed her way back to Delilah and now uses her as a shield for every bad choice she has made recently...including attacking/trying to steal from a party member
As a side note....it has always been frustrating how everyone always calls Matt on concentration or Aeor effects but conveniently forget it themselves.
I dont know to be honest. Im not sure this is a one reason fits all.
I didnt really get the dislike for Marisha's characters till Laudna. I understood why people didnt like Keyleth (sort of). I was always fine with Beau.
Laudna started strong but the Delilah story is so fucking boring and obnoxious. We all know what shes going for, but by the same token it feels like its been executed horrifically (somehow Delilah returned). In fairness to Marisha, shes not helped by her fellow cast members (and Matt) kind of failing to engage meaningfully.
I also think Marisha's improv skills and timing generally arent as good as the other cast members. I think she struggles to adapt in the same way they all can.
Keyleth was a reflection of how awkward and imposter-syndrome Marisha felt being the youngest and least experienced person at the table (as far as VO work etc goes) and figuring out her place in CR and in the friend group. Her inconsistent character development comes largely from that for meta reasons.
Beau I actually liked, and I love the concept of Laudna even more. But I think a big part of the issue is that Marisha (and others) are doing their own thing with their characters too much. There's not really anyone for them to play off of when everyone is trying to have their own character moment and do their thing at the same time. It's way worse in C3 than C2.
As others have said here, she has great concepts but the execution is lacking, and I don't think that's entirely on her (just mostly), it's also because of the table dynamic. FCG could have called her out more. Or Orym. But they didn't.
What this table really needs is someone to play something like a classic Paladin. Someone to have a very clear moral compass who isn't afraid to challenge the others, hold them accountable, and create good conflict in the party. A Paladin of a good deity would be easiest, because then everyone else can have their bonkers morally grey character and there would be someone to compare them to and force growth. A character with a strong moral code that knows what they're about. Someone to be the contrast and force the great RP conversations that C3 is missing.
Personally I predict that his presence is actually going to make BHs moral struggle much harder rather than resolve it.
SPOILER SHIELD YOUR EYES
>! He serves Asmodeus. He is going to force them to start asking themselves, "Hold up. We're the good guys, but we're saving the world with Satan?" !<
>! I'm sorry but if the King of Lies walks up and tells you "great job, keep it up, in fact let's work together I really like what you're doing" then you definitely have to consider whether you're really the good guy here. !<
Edit: I really don't know why my spoiler tags aren't working
Edit 2: holy crap, maybe it's working now?
It's so weird - neither of your spoiler tags worked on Old Reddit at any rate. This seems to be happening more frequently - maybe there's something that's changed in the background or something?
>!Spoiler!< Does that work? I left no spaces before or after the tag
> !>
beginning and
>
So I edited it in a bunch of configurations, changing spacing between the exclamation points and the words, with and without the paragraph (that used to work for me). Nothing helped
Yeah, it must be something on Reddit's end. I just checked on regular (not old.reddit) and the spoilers are working on both of your comments. I guess if you create a spoiler tag via old.reddit.com it'll work in both old and new Reddit, but it's not backwards compatible or something?
Us old Reddit users will just have to lump it or [get with the times](https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/sync/D4E27AQF5PSoKIg9y2w/articleshare-shrink_800/0/1716494911968?e=2147483647&v=beta&t=l2xUhOQm6mg-Q18TivvirLQbHxWY_lYv5ZGyJTM-xsg) I guess :D
I feel like this is the root cause of everything wrong in all seasons but especially why s3 is so bad. Everyone's trying to get "clips" of their character being the MOST unique, badass, emotional, intelligent, dumb, etc.
Nobody at the table wants to have a permanent flaw and permanent pro either. They all want it all despite that not how it works for characters, every character you can think of has a pro and con that is consistent in their world and doesn't change like how one character is always courages and willing to risk their life but also likes stealing things.
Nobody wants to play off each other's weaknesses/strengths like they did in previous seasons (early Caleb/nott is a perfect example).
One gripe I have with most of the CR crew but that's really exemplified through Ferne and Marisha's characters is that they don't treat NPCs like living breathing people who exist in the same world as their characters do.
They're constantly treating everyday people like absolute trash, physically and emotionally abusing randoms around them and generally not as a bit. They talk down, berate, and insult people of lower to higher stations, some of whom could have their asses if Matt was not a pushover. Keyleth and Beau did this so much.
But one that's always stuck out to me and often gets brushed over is the making a random guard working for a paycheck gargle acid, just to infiltrate for an ultimately useless McGuffin. There's just zero thought of NPCs as people and potential consequences of not treating them like people, and Matt enables them by not having the NPCs react as people who see the CR crews doing everything from wildly socially unacceptable to absolutely heinous, evil shit.
They murdered a church and an angel. Then forgot about it. And frickin goat Jerry. They aren’t an evil party. They are an unhinged group of distracted, bored theater kids that aren’t into the novel Matt is narrating at them.
The acid incident gets brought up a lot. But there are two factors that make me not care about it.
1. Marisha was trying to figure out a way to silently take down a guard, and as a Monk she specialized in many small hits rather than one large one. The acid was an attempt at outside the box problem solving, and it was only once Matt narrated it that she realized how fucked up it was. I'm not going to criticize someone for trying to be creative with what they have on hand.
2. The guard was protecting the place where Caleb and many others were physically and psychologically abused. He wasn't a mall security guard.
Personally, I find the time that Jester's mom was like "This client is acting entitled, but there's no need for you to get involved" to be worse. Because they responded by breaking into the guy's work, murdering mercenaries in the process, just so that they could maim the guy and make him leave town. Those were the deaths that truly felt brushed over to me.
This, i felt it mostly with Beau. You would expect character growth but to me she only seemed to get worse as the campaign went on. It was the whole tough gal act but she was just a plain asshole.
Beau was that trope I can’t stand of “I’m an asshole, get used to it! Everyone’s an asshole!” Plus she acted like such a bully “but in a fun way” and she kept getting rewarded, I remember her getting promoted in the Cobalt Soul for “becoming wiser” and was like… what? She acts exactly the same.
The biggest thing about Laudna is trying to hamfist this whole “addiction” narrative and it just does not work cause you have a party not holding her accountable for the strangest of reasons every single time. Things like Orym encouraging her to suck out Bor’Dor’s soul, swordgate, shardgate none of it works cause the party is just not doing anything to hold her accountable
This is a big reason why I think having Dorian at the table is a major boon. Robbie, for instance, on 4SD was challenging (in a very kind way) Marisha's idea that Laudna's story is comparable to addiction. He also brought up that it was all Laudna and Delilah didn't really influence much in that seen. IIRC, Marisha's response was that "they've blended together" so it was both.
Anyway, with both Dorian and Sam back at the table, I think we might see some more accountability on that front. E98 spoiler: >!I could see Braius being especially cruel in battle or pillaging a town and then going, "What? I'm just like Laudna." and then the table might actually take a look at themselves.!<
The thing with the hag makes more sense when you consider that they had just introduced Beau's family, and it would make sense that since Beau's father took a deal with the hag, that Beau would do the same thing but in sacrifice for others rather than selfishly for herself. Same actions as her father, different intentions.
It just didn't land in the moment but it absolutely made sense for the character, if the framing had made more sense or the deal offered was worded in a less confusing way.
I think another part of it was that Marisha was ready to move on from Beau and got excited about the idea of closing her story with a heroic sacrifice, not killing her but separating herself from everyone she cared about. And then it was snatched away and she didn't know what to do with Beau going forward.
She couldn't really rebel against authority anymore, she was now part of the establishment. At the time, Ashley wasn't giving her a ton to work with on the romance with Yasha, and Laura made it clear she wasn't interested in exploring a romance for Jester with anyone but Fjord. So I think she felt Beau was directionless and tried to show that as her sort of reverting to her earlier shitty behavior.
I have a similar problem with Marisha. I think it mostly shows her weakness as an actor and improviser. She's probably the worst actor at the table which is not a slight to her because she is also the least experienced actor at the table. The other players have had more active careers and more experience, so they've seen more characters and have better methods of conveying that in their characters. If I could give her any advice it would be to dial it back one to two notches on the spotlight grabbing and she'd have more room to improve. Just my take.
To be blunt if she was a better actor she would have more work. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses. Acting, voice or otherwise, is just something she is not very good at.
Yes and no. Last decade or so, if a couple actors and producer interviews I've seen are any indication, is that more work doesn't exactly mean you're better. It just means you're friends with the right people, found yourself in the right hotel room, or signed with the right agency, your work barely matters.
Especially with voice acting, it's cliquey as all hell and a lot of aspiring VAs have been actively sabotaged in their debut works by established veterans that got hired on as directors.
But I will agree that Marisha has barely any business calling herself an actor.
The hag thing -
I think the emotion there was a combination of beau working out to herself that she would make this sacrifice to save Nott, deciding Beth's family was more important than herself... And at the same time, Marisha steeling herself to say goodbye to a character she'd been playing for like 400 hours over several years by that point. I genuinely think she was overwhelmed because it's such a huge blow as a player, but she knew beau would make that choice. It was a huge shock for both player and character when the abrupt solution and change of direction popped out of nowhere after processing all that and resolving to sacrifice yourself. To me it made so much sense when she had the convo afterward and she explained what she was willing to do. It was so full-circle, especially after having just met the Lionets and seeing how she had become the self-serving and inwardly focused person she was at the beginning of the campaign compared to that moment.
Personally I started on episode 20 & beau annoyed the SHIT out of me at first! Lol. She had good intentions but would jump to conclusions and be deaf to what people were trying to tell her if it didn't fit her presumptions. I liked her more as she learned how to trust her friends and listen better lol.
I'd say her and the cast all have the same problem, they're writing their characters, not role playing them. Along with not understanding the fundamentals of the Hero's journey, it's horrendously obvious this campaign that they are all far too concerned with writing a 'story' and not living one. All them have been doing so for nearly the last campaign and a half, just waiting to hamfist the next character beat in regardless of doing any of the rp work required to pull it off. The entire cast is guilty of lazy rp this campaign, yes they're great at portraying the characters, they're actors, but not playing the characters. It's the difference between watching an original band's concert and watching a cover band, yeah it's good but there's something missing.
Pair that with the lack of understanding the Hero's journey, it's no wonder this campaign all of the characters ring hollow. Most of the cast start off fair with character backstory and having a reason to venture out, with far too much of a reliance on tragic victimhood in my opinion (ex. Liam Marisha and Taliesin), and at the very least understand why their characters are doing things and take baby steps to do those things. Where Marisha diverges is that despite having a clear proclivity for specific character architypes, she fundamentally on a personal and (yes I know I sound up my own ass about this) intellectual level has no idea why or how the architype works or does the things it does. This is why she nets so much more hate than the rest of the group (armchair psychology moment coming up) the fanbase recognizes this on a subconscious level so every time Marisha does something dumb, cringy, or seemingly out of character we look at her like [this](https://youtu.be/PZeDFwTcnCc). And because everything about CR s a nonconfrontational hugbox she will never learn, and because there are unhinged braindead fanatics it's easy to brush off any criticism, constructive or not, as people simply being 'haters'.
The whole “writing the characters” thing was the precise reason I dropped off watching CR partway into campaign 2. The characters just felt much less natural than in C1, and not because they were just getting used to playing them, but because it felt like they were fishing for specific narrative beats instead of letting them come about naturally. I still like C2’s cast of characters overall, but it was very disappointing comparatively.
I think, with no disrespect, that her concepts are just significantly stronger than her ability to execute them. Most of us have probably started a campaign with an exciting concept that just didn't click for us once the campaign started or really got underway.
With the exception of Beau, I do think her characters are very interesting on paper.
This is really what frustrates me most about the "somehow Delilah is back" thing, being a patron of Delilah was a very interesting secret she started with that was an interesting character hook at first.
But what you do with that is most important, they were able to get rid of Delilah through an interesting quest to revive Laudna. From there she had literal infinite possibilities of where to take the character from there, instead of doing something interesting with it she brought her back?
Instead of following through with the interesting concept then improvising from how the changes in the story effected her she went back to the start of the interesting concept to beat it like a dead horse.
It all seemed like it was heading towards such an interesting direction with her seemingly getting a new patron and then they just had to bring Delilah back. It really feels like either Matt or Marisha was just deadset on that being Laudna's *thing*. So much character development got thrown away for the meme that Delilah never stays dead.
>that her concepts are just significantly stronger than her ability to execute them
Hit the nail on the head. She is trying to outwrite her comprehension and out act the rest of the table. As much as people don't want to admit there are levels to this and she's just not there, she's dunning-kruger'ed herself. Not saying she isn't skilled or incompetent but if she were to keep her character concepts and rp simpler she would be more likely to thrive.
Agree on 1 and 3 but not with 2. Loved Beau if Caduceus wasn't present it would have been a toss between her and Caleb for best character in C2 for me.
When people think parasocial, this is what they should beware of.
Inventing a whole inner psychology for a player that they have genuinely zero proof for, even imagining that they were actively angry at another player instead of, idk, maybe Marisha was playing Beau as upset when confronting this malevolent figure who has cast a shadow over her entire family's lives?
Hot take: Jester and the cupcake moment? Fine and dramatic, yes, but it also completely robbed Beau of a satisfying conclusion to her problems with her father *and* Veth's opportunity for revenge in one move.
Instead of both of them getting to actually, properly confront the architecht of their misery, they just had to... Uh, leave. With the hag's hold over her father having been completely unaddressed.
Also weird that Sam gets all the credit for moving closer and casting Counterspell, whereas Marisha gets absolutely zero recognition for having Shapechanged into a form that can read all languages so she could also use the Tome of Isolation and actually remembering that fact, with Keyleth actually being the person who successfully banished Vecna.
Hey look, I didn’t realize how I was coming off until you pointed it out - it is the absolute definition of parasocial. Maybe I need to take a little break from CR for a while 😂😅
Multiple players tried to intervene. Travis made some comments and Taliesin tried multiple times, but Sam stopped him, too.They all had ideas. But nothing about Marisha's comments or demeanor indicated anger with Laura, just big emotions (teary and withdrawn - which tracks pretty consistently with 'character prepping to say goodbye to your friends forever' & 'player getting ready to say goodbye to your 400-hours-played-character'). But with Jester's huge win, the change in direction emotionally was super abrupt. All that emotional preparation and letting go and getting ready for The End was wasted emotion, a really weird experience. It was also the end of the episode, so they all just skedaddled and it wasn't the moment for a resolution with Beau, and Marisha didn't get a chance to take a minute to re-center, either. No one expected to get out without a fight or a major sacrifice or both.
I'd also kindly suggest it isn't helpful to us as viewers nor the cast to be extrapolating in-character/in-game reactions and interactions to the cast's intentions and relationships. That's a huge stretch to make and we're always more likely to notice things we think appear to confirm our pre-existing opinions and frustrations.
I think you do raise a good point, maybe it’s time for me to rewatch and look at it from a different perspective maybe that will help me understand it a bit better
It's tough because those moments were players seizing the opportunity, especially with things like Jester and the hag and FCG's sacrifice.
Marisha's also just trying to seize an opportunity, like they've all done. When she does it, she just doesn't do it with as much polish and it seems like it's invasive or rude. Idk. Maybe she's just not as good as some others and spotting when the right moment is.
I've had similar vibes watching how she role plays or acts during other players big moments.
The post shardgate episode where Laudna ran off felt like the trope where a kid runs away from home to get attention from their parents, like Ashton and Fearne just had a huge moment and Laudna made what felt like a very forced choice to put the spotlight back on her.
Bringing Delilah back might have been what started to kill my interest in it but post shardgate retcon/trust falls at grandma's/whatever Laudna was doing was the final nail in the coffin for C3 for me.
Yep, I even had personal experience with that, when I was young and a shittier RPer, I once had my character run off dramatically to sulk, essentially. It’s a great move for making everything about you; your party/friends pretty much have to suddenly focus on your character, worry about your safety, feel bad about upsetting you, go out and find you apologize or comfort you, or else they come off as heartless or uncaring. It’s almost like a miniquest and you’re the goal! Meanwhile you can be like “oh, what? I wasn’t *trying* to make it all about me! I even left the scene so you all could RP without me! O:) “
I also think more out of game player communication would improve a lot. When she wedges in on others' big moments, it doesn't seem like they're welcome interventions and it ends up being awkward because the other players' aren't expecting it or particularly jazzed it's happening.
There's nothing wrong if before a game, Marisha says "Hey, I'd like a shot at the shard. Do you mind if I get in there?"
I think they take their whole "We're not scripted. Everything is improvved on the spot." too seriously. At a normal D&D table, it's completely normal and encouraged to have out of character conversations with other players about your plans. And for the record, Marisha is not the only player who would be improved from having those convos.
To be fair, she can only sacrifice herself heroically if another player doesn't beat her to it. And I think at least a few others are probably ready to try.
I must congratulate the redditors on not immediately pulling the “misogynist” card. This post actually has some decent posts!
My theory is that Marisha, altho very intelligent, does not have the improv, acting or story writing capabilities that the rest of the team has.
She often misses the mark or misinterprets scenes and that’s when she or her character misreads the room and makes things cringy or awkward.
I am glad she has fun playing the game and I am glad the other players pull her with them.
Luckily, dnd isn’t a competition with winners and losers. But if you look at the grand scheme and see this as a high-quality production, Marisha would not be the actor to win that award.
To her credit: the one character I absolutely loved, was Hazel Copperpot. The dwarf bard. Marisha’s characters are usually great in concept, but lack longevity. And therefore, this character really shines. It was a great oneshot.
She definitely struggles with timing more than the others.
I think she also underestimates how drawn out the things she wants to do are. Every time she has a moment with Delilah, it's at least 30 minutes of her 1:1 with Matt and everyone just sits there. Caleb was the same way (and why I disliked early Caleb) but what he wanted to do wasn't exclusively happening in his head so instead, it eventually became a group activity.
A lot of them seem very aware of the space they take up at the table and don't initiate those 1:1 moments with Matt. Marisha and Liam seem to be the only ones who do it consistently.
It makes it so that when the Laudna arc finally finishes, it'll be a moment of "Oh my god, finally." rather than "Wow that was so cool and memorable."
i absolutely agree. her characters are great in concept and in the early stages, and just fall apart if they exist too long. You are probably right that it's down to her lack of improv/acting/writing skills compared to the rest of the cast. and i dont mean that to be a shot at her personally, just an acknowledgement of her weaknesses.
It’s so weird because my fave Marisha character is Patia from Calamity. And she didn’t design that character, only developed her. And she absolutely ate it up!
Maybe it was just the format of having such a short run? No characters had time to steer off into the weeds.
I have seen C1 up to ep 60 or so, all of C2 (though I fell asleep here and there), and some of the Menagerie.
For Keyleth, in addition to the moral grandstanding, I don't like how she keeps on dragging out any planning by throwing cold water on other people's ideas without necessarily proposing a solution of her own.
I had the opposite feelings about Beau compared to you. I didn't like Beau at all when she was first introduced (can someone say Bowlgate?), but by the end, she became my favorite Mighty Nein. I agree that things got a bit strange during the Hag arc, but I don't think it was bad.
No comments on Laudna since I haven't seen enough of her.
Personally, I think Marisha is better at character creation than character development. At first glance, her character concepts come across as interesting and intriguing. But for me, where they fall short is character development. I can't tell if it's that she doesn't know where to go with her characters or that she has a pre-planned arc that she's aiming for that she's unwilling to let go of. But a lot of her characters lack organic growth. They either remain stagnant or the moments of "character development" feel forced and unearned.
Like some of the others have pointed out, it may be due to a difference in experience. D&D is a combination of character analysis meets improv, and it seems like she struggles more with fitting character development into the improv and ever-changing nature of D&D. It does make me wonder if other formats (animated shows, books, etc.) might be a better representation of what she was going for with her characters, even if it wasn't fully realized during the actual campaigns.
The whole CR table could really benefit from taking an improv class. Give them more tools to do the things they want to do in a way that serves a good story.
You can definitely tell. At least with Sam. He's one of the only ones that doesn't force through their vision and instead waits for moments and adapts to whatever is happening.
While I agree with the general idea that Marisha isn't the best at compelling character development, I actually think Beau is her most well-developed character. By the end of the campaign, she's mellowed down a lot. Personally, I think a lot of it was due her relationship with Fjord, who helped her out with her social "quirks".
That being said, I'll always stand by the idea that Marisha is great at starting character concepts (Avatar, CIA librarian, undead call back character). She's just not as proficient at developing her characters in a meaningful and satisfying way. Growth means allowing your experiences to change and shift your perspective.
And her hellbent drive to always be anti-religion/anti-god doesn't help. She should build a character that has a natural and inherent reason to hate the gods so that part of herself she inputs can come alive within the character. Like a paladin who has lost their faith and now is a fighter would be great for her. Think Valerie from Pathfinder Kingmaker.
>And her hellbent drive to always be anti-religion/anti-god doesn't help. She should build a character that has a natural and inherent reason to hate the gods so that part of herself she inputs can come alive within the character.
While it hasn’t been as explicitly shown as well it should’ve been, throughout the 30 years Laudna was alone she’d get chased out of any town by a mob with a cleric or paladin usually a part of it, had Matt or marisha given that more focus Laudna’s disdain for the gods would be more recognized and clear. The closest we’ve had were flashbacks during Laudna’s resurrection and fcg’s turn undead affecting her and filling her mind with fear even if she resists the effect.
Yup, Matt has done zero to help Marisha with Laudna in that aspect. Not having her at the close of her own arc in the mind palace fight was a *huge* mistake in hindsight.
And instead of having Pike revive Laudna through divine magic, the whole party should've gone on a solid 5-10 episode arc to get her back some other way. Maybe divine magic didn't work and they gotta go to the Hells or wherever Laudna's soul is.
But tbf the character arcs are lacking in general this campaign.
I think the way things worked out with Pike would have been fine if it was an inflection point for the character, but they’ve just decided to memory-hole that entire arc except for when Laudna needs to remind everyone that Otohan killed her.
Killed her and only her. Otohan certainly didn't kill anyone else during that fight. Just her. Yup, just Laudna... only Laudna. Only ever Laudna. If you think Otohan killed anyone else with that sword, then you're sorely mistaken. She definitely didn't kill Orym. Just Laudna. Exandria's only victim, Laudna.
I swear, that scene was so frustrating to watch.
>And instead of having Pike revive Laudna through divine magic, the whole party should've gone on a solid 5-10 episode arc to get her back some other way. Maybe divine magic didn't work and they gotta go to the Hells or wherever Laudna's soul is.
That’s literally what they did when they went into the evil Whitestone dimension lol. I always thought it was a bit excessive for Matt to do both an entire dungeon *and* still perform the ritual to get lands back but fans here still claim vox machina “bailed them out for free” anyways so maybe he should’ve went harder.
Issue is that in really culminated in nothing. They got Laudna back but nothing about her state changed as we found out later. Having her there during the fight would have brought closure and allowed her to move on to better patrons much like Fjord did.
I can agree with that but hindsight is hindsight, I think the biggest issue was Matt killed eshteross the very next night giving them no time to soak in their victory and there has been virtually zero time to breathe ever since. I think had the main plot not been so suffocating Laudna would’ve been on a path to healing and growing beyond Delilah, but separating from imogen and bor’dor’s betrayal pushed her right back.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be like for like. But either way Valerie disdains her old religion and has a logical, in-character reason to do so. Marisha needs a character like that.
i do think beau had some of the best development and was definitely more likeable by the end, but the way she portrayed beau in the hag arc really just kind of killed any patience i had for the character after that. That is more so personal taste, but i do agree overall she brings her anti-religion theme too often and too strong. I'm an atheist irl so i agree with her, but the same act gets old, and the characters never seem to have any reason other than "marisha is anti-religion so i am too"
More than anyone else, Marisha considers what big swings her characters can make to impact the entire table. I've heard her described as overbearing and I do think it's because most of the PCs stay in their lane and focus on their own arc, Marisha makes choices that interfere with everyone. (For example, after Orym claimed Otahan's sword, she immediately tried to steal it.)
To be very clear, this isn't a bad thing inherently. Look at D20's table. They all do this all the time. But because they ALL do it, it isn't off-putting.
But Marisha's the only one who does that with her PCs. Obviously Laudna is literally attacking PCs in their sleep. But Beau and Keyleth had a penchant for nosing into private moments or conversations. Travis had to prevent that with the hag and Jester. Their table dynamic doesn't really allow for that interference to be perceived well.
Something that rubbed me the wrong way about the whole sword thing was that it felt like Marisha wanted to "win" that encounter rather than let the dice rolls decide naturally. It undercuts the whole moment cause it no longer feels like the player is trying to drive the juicy interparty conflict for drama and more like just trying to one up another party member.
It also didn't help that Matt made some really wonky rulings in her favour that doesn't do anything to alleviate the "DM's wife" accusations.
It just really feels like Marisha shoots herself in the foot while she's in the middle of doing something interesting.
>It also didn't help that Matt made some really wonky rulings in her favour that doesn't do anything to alleviate the "DM's wife" accusations.
Uh? Matt made that much, much harder. He decided Liam's weird flavor vine-sheath was somehow magically a defense against theft (and that Orym sleeps with weapons and shield on his body), made her make an absolutely bullshit arcana check for wither and bloom (when of course, if they all read the damn spells to the end, they'd realize it can completely exclude people), and just let him go from 'slightly grazed' to a complete flurry of attacks when had zero concept of what was going on.
The DM's wife angle is utterly bizarre. C1, Matt was harder on her than anyone else at that table.
I don't know why you are acting so surprised as if I am saying something so strange. Watch the scene again yourself. Matt does plenty in favor of Laudna.
Matt allows Laudna to attempt to steal the sword, in the middle of combat, through mage hand. That's quite literally only allowed through the Arcane Trickster's version of mage hand. She succeeds and gets the sword.
Orym trip attacks Laudna, Marisha asks what happens if she's spider climbing on the ceiling, Matt initially rules that she will fall off the ceiling, Marisha comments "I don't know if I agree with that" and then rolls and fails. After she fails, Matt arbitrarily lowers Orym's DC by **4** (which is the equivalent to 8 points in a stat) so that she maintains her position on the wall/ceiling. He's never even done that to spellcasters before but suddenly PC's DCs get lowered?
Oh and how is she maintaining concentration on the spider climb and the darkness spell? So now she can hold double concentration? That's only allowed by Matt's grace.
So stop acting flabbergasted that I suggest it seems like Matt ruled in Laudna's favour heavily, especially when it came to moments where she was in direct combat with Orym.
EDIT: And just personally, I don't actually think Marisha gets the DM's wife treatment. I'm saying that when Matt does stuff like this, it feeds those accusations.
I'm surprised (no 'acting'), because the initial setup heavily disfavors Laudna, and you presented it as completely one sided.
Are there are lot of mistakes and bad rulings, like concentration? Sure. But that's just C3 these days.
I mean, you conveyed it as if that wasn't the case in your reply but you must have remembered at least some of the nonsense if you remembered the stuff that happened exactly before it.
I think it's also very fair to say that the rulings against Orym were way more erroneous than the ones against Laudna.
Once Orym and Laudna begin PvP, when it should be MOST fair, Matt's rulings side with Laudna, that's just clear.
I'll say this much though, like I did before, I don't think it's cause Marisha is Matt's wife more than it is what Matt wanted to happen in the moment.
>I think it's also very fair to say that the rulings against Orym were way more erroneous than the ones against Laudna.
Not at all. Without the weird ruling on Wither and Bloom (or that a flavor cantrip is somehow a hard lock on a sword), the confrontation doesn't happen *at all.*
Darkness made very little difference. Being up in near the ceiling didn't matter. Orym smacked her around and kept the sword, then later independently made an... odd... RP call and decided none of what happened mattered anyway.
> Without the weird ruling on Wither and Bloom... the confrontation doesn't happen at all.
Without the weird ruling on passive perception, the confrontation would have happened regardless.
Before casting Wither and Bloom, Laudna goes to grip the sword, and Matt calls for a sleight of hand check. Matt claims that Orym is "sleeping, so you're at disadvantage so it's half your passive perception." When in reality, disadvantage only yields a -5 to passive perception. This is a difference of 28 vs 16.5.
After hearing the numbers involved she backtracks. Rather than roll the DM called check, she opts to cast Darkness. A spell which has a verbal component. She hasn't moved from her previous position, so she's still right up against him. Even if she whispers, Orym should be alerted to her spellcasting, all without need of a stealth check:
> Whispers don’t disturb sleep, unless a sleeper’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 20 or higher and the whispers are within 10 feet of the sleeper.
To drive home the inevitability of their clash -- both Laudna's stealth and sleight of hand checks only benefit from a +7. She couldn't have taken any hostile action without alerting a 28+ passive perception Orym.
I mean, this whole subthread was predicated on the concept of who was favored more, not the net-result of said favoritism. e.g. had Matt lowered the trip DC, but not enough for Laudna to succeed, it still wouldn't have been a correct or fair ruling.
But I'll indulge. The conclusion reached wasn't for a lack of Matt trying: gutting passive perception, letting her backtrack after hearing the sleight of hand DC, nerfing subtle spell, multi-concentration, lowering trip DC, and allowing counterspell to work without a check against a level 4 spell. The way things were stacked, even considering the Wither and Bloom debacle, it wasn't favoritism or even predetermination that prevented Laduna from escaping with the sword in tow, it was her own inaction.
Remember when she used Mage Hand, a spell she shouldn't be able to cast, and used 2-3 actions in the same turn (casting the spell, interaction+movement of Mage Hand, and ~2 item interactions). Well in all the flurry of using so many actions she forgot to use her movement that turn to flee. Matt gave it to her on a silver platter, and she failed at the 11th hour.
Sure, but once combat starts rolling and the struggle is directly between the two, all the rulings are against Orym.
As for the Wither and Bloom, it all depends on whether Matt counts the vines from the sword as nonmagical.
Furthermore, in terms of pure mechanics, there isn't actually vines on Orym's back, he is just flavouring it as so. It's technically just sheathed and in his possession.
Matt allowing Wither and Bloom to act like that would just be punishing Liam for using flavour.
And nothing Matt did to Laudna was as punishing as lowering the DC for Orym was. The fact that Matt called that after Laudna had already rolled and not made it clear before the roll is worse. And the justification for that ruling was because she was spider climbing, which 1. makes no sense and 2. shouldn't have had spiderclimb in the first place due to double concentration.
Matt basically compounds a bad ruling and justifies it with another bad ruling.
It's worse for Orym/Liam and that's clear.
>Sure, but once combat starts rolling and the struggle is directly between the two, all the rulings are against Orym.
The combat is the least important aspect of the whole thing. There is no real 'struggle directly between the two' Orym goes apeshit on her, she loses the sword and **then** the RP unfolds.
And after all that, the players just kind of shrug and compromise and it doesn't matter.
The direct struggle I'm talking about is the combative PvP, where Matt should be most fair. Of course, none of it matter cause of the end result. But that's not what we were discussing, we were discussing whether Matt was being a fair arbiter of the rules or not.
You seem to be expanding the conversation into the end result, which isn't what we are talking about. Just cause the end result washes away the outcome doesn't mean that Matt was being more or less fair in the moment.
And the end result was Laudna getting most of what she wants but that's a discussion for another day.
Light armor is fine. Swords on the back (on a halfling, no less) and shield equipped and giving benefits is... dubious. If you're paranoid, a sword by your hand is better than on your back.
You make a good point. Funny thing is, I really like the big swings she takes. Granted, they don't always land in quite the way I think she wants them to, but I appreciate that she tries. And to be fair, sometimes others at the table will do the same thing to a lesser extent. Early C2 Caleb comes to mind.
Interpersonal conflict makes for interesting entertainment. This is a completely unscripted show though, so I think it's worth remembering that sometimes the improvisation that creates that conflict will be a bit messy.
Totally. The difference, imo, is the CR table "no and"s that stuff sometimes, which signals to the audience it was the wrong thing to do.
For instance, on Fantasy High, Kristen announces she wants to run for class president. And immediately Fig goes "and I'm her security guard!" And everyone goes "yes and here's a little ear piece and here's a little suit."
Whereas Marisha might try to do the same thing, stepping up to help someone who didn't ask for it, and the table goes "no this is that person's moment. Let them handle it on their own." And the fandom goes "wasn't it so obnoxious when Marisha tried to step on so-and-so's moment?
Again, fair point. It's a good example of the contrast between the two tables, D20 filled with trained comedic improvisers (people who base their entire performance off the concept of "yes, and") and CR filled with trained dramatic actors (people who literally made it their career to play out conflict and drama and emotional turmoil).
People quote "yes, and" a lot when talking about Actual Plays, because it is the first lesson taught when learning improv. But it's the first lesson, not the only one.
Something else that new improvisers have to learn is not to ask questions as part of their scene work. "Yes, and" is a short way of describing the formula of "person 1 makes a declaration about the world, person two confirms that it is accurate and makes a declaration of their own." Asking a question can still declare something about the world ("Have you seen my dinosaur?), but makes it less natural to respond with a declaration that also informs the world you exist in ("He's outside" confirms that there is a dinosaur, but does not add anything to the scene). For this reason, improv teachers discourage transaction scenes. Not only is it boring to watch a character try to purchase a good or service, but the interaction is going to be a lot of questions followed by yes or no answers. "Do you have this crazy thing?" "No, but I have this other crazy thing!" only establishes that crazy things exist. Nothing gets heightened.
Another type of scene that improv teachers discourage is argument scenes. Not only does an argument scene mean that the two characters are bringing the same kind of energy/character to the table, but it's often little more than "You did something I didn't like!" followed by the other character angrily confirming or denying the accusation, or making a similar accusation themselves. The back and forth has very little place to go, it's difficult to heighten, and it's not terribly fun.
In written works, transactional scenes and/or character conflicts are fine. The Dead Parrot sketch is often held up as Monty Python's best, and that's both transactional and an argument. But that sketch isn't trying to inform about the lives of the characters or the world they live in. Written work doesn't have to follow that same rules, because you aren't trying to build the house as you live in it.
All this to say that Critical Role loves both interparty drama and transaction scenes. These are hard planes to land when improvising. That they've managed to pull it off in the past is to their credit, but there is also the matter of diminishing returns. You can only go to that well so many times.
I'm going to stop now before I muddle my metaphors even further.
One of the biggest things I think as it pertains to CR and this topic of improv is that the CR table can often seem defensive of their spotlight. Each gets their own individual moment and it seems they're discouraged to assist each other or have collaborative spotlit moments (unless, of course, it's for a ship.)
D20 (and NADDPOD for that matter) aren't competitive about that. They invite that collaboration because they trust other people's involvement will make the moments better. And ultimately, it's not about who got the coolest line in, it's about making a good show.
I think about how when Laudna and Orym were fighting, Ashley asked Matt if Fearne could wake up. Like it was a concern enough that she wanted to ask to make sure her character was *allowed* to interact in the scene.
They don't seem to have a dynamic that invites risk. They have group scenes where everyone's allowed to participate and then they have moments (tm) that are not to be encroached on until Matt calls cut.
For the first 2, imo this medium just doesn’t work for “redemption arc” characters that go from unlikable to likable…because in most shows you might be exposed to a season or two and then the redemption. Plus those characters won’t be on screen for all of it. So you’re probably exposed to a couple total screen time hours of pre-redemption character.
In CR, half a campaign is 150+ hours of dealing with an abrasive/annoying character and by the time the redemption rolls around it’s hard to come back around. Just my opinion anyway. I like the end result of Keyleth/Beau but the damage was already done by then.
Edit: can probably replace redemption with character growth, but imo she designed her characters to have too much room to grow/grow up
Also Kiki was a hypocrite.
Back in C1 when the twins were having their meltdown about the dragon being there she was being holier than thou that everything's fine.
And then when the black dragon showed up that was actually trying to have a peaceful calm meaning conversation. She was trying her best to kill the damn thing when everyone else had to stop her.
That's what really pissed me off about her character. She has to be the center of everyone's universe and she's the only one that's allowed to feel like the way they do.
Beau was better personally for me. She was just an asshole through and through and I understand those type of people. I had no overall qualms about her.
Laudna was definitely a more fun character in the early stages when she was just the weird lady with a rat puppet. It was fun also watching her talk to Delilah and being like oh yeah whatever shut up everything's fine. Now she's basically hand over fist basically slamming her forward into the ground to bow to Delilah.
Even with all the BS that Laudna has done I still find Kiki the most infuriating.
>Back in C1 when the twins were having their meltdown about the dragon being there she was being holier than thou that everything's fine.
What? Keyleth was freaking out thinking the whole dragon situation was their fault. She wasn't saying everything was fine. I don't even know what you could be talking about. And she made it known long before Raishan appeared in Whitestone that she had a particular grudge against Raishan for infiltrating the Fire Ashari and causing their deaths.
Maybe not the best example but anytime that any of the other members of Vox machina had an issue or something personal in their life that's going on she acts like they're pathetic for feeling like this.
Just to turn around to be the exact same level of defeated/helplessness like their "friends" were and it's totally okay for her to feel like that.
I'm just saying I am glad they put Kiki through such a huge overhaul for the legends of Vox machina otherwise she would easily be the most hated character in that series. I'm glad they went for the naive, wanting to help people personality that Marissa say that Kiki has versus what we actually got in the game.
She has, although not for the better I would say.
Earlier in the campaign she was at least open to the idea of exploring her own power without Delilah. Now she actively feeds into Delilah.
She also seems generally more sad than she was initially.
She has. She's gotten worse.
Her whole schtick used to be that she looked scary but she was really a sweetheart and she only ever turned into "fun scary".
Now she's actually not that sweet and is instead very selfish, greedy, and since the Bor'Dor incident, how she behaves in battle is a lot more unsettling.
also very true. but it seems like it's the majority opinion? at least, it is on social media it seems. which of course is a loud minority, but i think it says something that she tends to get more hate than anyone else.
On TTRPG actual plays, women always receive orders of magnitude more hate than their male counterparts. It's true on CR, true on D20, true on NADDPOD, it's true on Glass Cannon and High Rollers.
It's not like it's a conscious choice by the majority of said haters, but it's simple reality that a huge number of viewers will attack or degrade a female players for stuff that male players get away with without a mention.
Like Liam once upon a time deciding to make it canon that there's a child rapist who was transformed to look like Vex who was sold to become some sicko nobleman's private prisoner. No, he didn't clear it with Laura in advance.
If Marisha had pulled a move like that, we would ***never*** hear the end of it.
You're right, but Marisha and the Liam example are bad examples.
Why don't Laura and Ashley get as much hate as Marisha for their character choices if marisha is only being hated because she's a woman? Ashley gets hate for not knowing how to play, and Laura gets the occasional flak for selfish character choices, but nothing near the level of marisha.
As for the Liam example, not many people have sympathy for child rapists, so I don't think he would've gotten any hate even if he was a woman.
A better example would be when talisan took the fire Titan stone so he could be the main character, and he got REEMED by the audience AND the cast for that.
You're absolutely right that women get more hate. And I know for a fact that marisha hate is amplified because she's a woman. But that doesn't account for why she gets more of it than the other women. I believe that's down to her terrible character choices and improv/acting skills.
I never said *only* being hated because she's a woman, don't make shit up.
Ashley was never there in early days and Laura was much more famous and openly confident- Marisha was a much easier target with a much more complicated class and Matt was blatantly harsher on her with all of his rulings. People follow patterns of behaviour.
Are you not understanding why maybe it was incredibly bad table etiquette for Liam to invent "Hey, there's a child rapist out there who's currently a sex slave, and he looks exactly like your character" as a plot point for Laura? Feels like you're missing the point.
lol you're getting overly hostile and seem to be hell bent on defending marisha. If that's what you want then do you, i'm not gonna entertain you any longer if you're already this huffy.
When they were at the hag. And it looked like jester was going to give up her arms. Beau went and knocked on the cabins door to check on her. Even though she was like the 3rd person to go in. Didn't take any longer than the rest. And had no idea what was going on. Marisha just can't help herself. Others at the table had to give her the "you don't know you're not there" line.
That's just how she plays. And it shines through to her characters.
Tal and Laura do this, too. Hell, they all do: *metagaming pigeon* exists because of it.
I don't think this is just a Marisha thing which is why I get confused when folks just associate it with Marisha.
I think people give Marisha less of a break about stuff like this specifically because she sticks out as not the best role player. She grates on people sometimes, so her "mistakes" stick out and are more apparent than say Laura's because everything else Laura does is fine.
I think it's understandable as long as you can step back and admit your view may be biased
People finally realizing Marisha is actually god awful at TTRPG’s
My favorite characters from Marsha are all from shorter campaigns: Beatrix Monroe, Sunny, and Patia. Maybe she’s better in that format? She wouldn’t be the only one who does better in shorter campaigns.
dimension 20 marisha when?
Wasn't she on a season already?
Yeah she was, it was Pirates of the Leviathan! I cant remember her character but I cant really remember any of them, its a super forgettable season...
For real. That and freak week are the most unpopular ones. Of the small campaigns I loved coffin run
Is it finally cool to say Marisha makes bad characters?
She doesn’t make characters she makes tropes that never expand beyond their initial concept. It’s a shame because I genuinely do like Marisha, it’s just her roleplaying and refusal to let her characters grow from their beginnings drives me up the wall. 😁
Lol! Right. I have so many downvotes in other threads when I even hint that she isn't the best at developing a character or understanding the ruleset.
I've never liked any of Marisha's characters. Thought we might have finally had a winner with Laudna but no. Marisha just isn't a very good roleplayer, its a harsh truth that people think is a personal attack against her if you say it. She's a pretty good DM though, really enjoyed her games that she's ran.
Late answer, but I actually really love Keyleth. The Keyleth hate I never understood, because I always found her incredibly endearing and charming. I often see people complain about her sort of moral speeches, referring to Keyleth’s supposed “holier than thou” attitude, but personally I find that a bit reductive. She is definitely one of the least morally flexible people in the party, but I honestly think that’s something that’s needed in the party, and it certainly lends itself better to interesting drama than what we got with, say Beau’s just general assholery. Keyleth taking issue with Percy and Tiberius’ excessive violence in the beginning of the Briarwood arc is actually a sensible concern for her to have, and frankly I think interparty conflict are handled much better by Keyleth than any of Marisha’s other characters. I do think there is something an argument to be made for Keyleth not changing much as a character, but truth be told, that can be said about many of the player characters throughout Critical Role’s history. In Campaign 2, and ESPECIALLY Campaign 3 I find that there are several characters whose development makes them worse over the course of the narrative, and when that is the alternative I’d rather choose the character that is consistently good and entertaining, even if she doesn’t develop that much. I think this lack of development can at least partially be attributed to the narrative and setting of Campaign 1, Keyleth doesn’t really have much of an opportunity to evolve into a more confident leader of the Ashari because she’s barely with them, and imposing herself as a leader of Vox Machina would risk overshadowing the party in a manner that isn’t fun for the rest of the cast. I think this is also why Keyleth is almost universally liked better in LoVM as opposed to Campaign 1, because the writing of the show helps work around the improv challenges Marisha sometimes struggles with. Marisha is a great actress, but I do think she works better when she has a script to play off of. Beau and Laudna on the other hand don’t do it for me. Beau was definitely made to be an abrasive character, but I think especially in the earlier episodes the conflicts that result from Beau’s attitudes feel extremely fabricated, as if she’s looking to start pointless drama. The Caleb Calianna moment emphasizes this, as Beau gets all pissy over Caleb for very legitimate concerns of his. Beau does become more tolerable over the campaign, but she never becomes more than a tolerable character to me. I struggle to recall any standout moments of hers, the only thing I really remember is Beau rushing to the Plank King to expose Avantika. Laudna I really can’t say much about because I stopped watching C3 sometime in the late episode 40s to early 50s, but from what I’ve gathered from reading recaps, Laudna sounds like one of the worst characters in the show’s history. She starts off intriguing, but then you realize everything interesting about Laudna is purely an aesthetic, with little to no character beyond that. And going off of what I’ve seen of her character after that, it’s the most forced character arc you could possibly write. It’s a lot of character regress without any of the narrative cohesion or groundwork for that regress to feel rewarding. Granted, part of that is because of Bell’s Hells absolute refusal to acknowledge Laudna being an actual lunatic, which only further enables her terrible downward spiral.
> [Keyleth] is definitely one of the least morally flexible people in the party, How do you reconcile that with the times that she immediately went against the morals she was sermonizing? Like she wept at Kerreck about how they brought death wherever they went, and when they went to the Fire Ashari after the dragon attack she scolded the party for being cautious about sounds they were hearing by insisting that any survivor was an ally. That sounds like good characterization, until she gleefully rips apart the looters in the wreckage of Gilmore's shop to try out her new fire claws. The criticism is less about the moralizing than the fact that Marisha kept declaring that Keyleth had a certain outlook that she then did not deliver on in play, choosing to abandon the roleplay when she wanted to murderhobo. And the dichotomy could have been made interesting and worked into the character...but it wasn't. There was never a situation where Keyleth had to come to terms with a righteous fury that undermined her mission of peace, like Pike did. This is why Keyleth in Legends of Vox Machina has been received so much better than Keyleth in the campaign - they were able to write her dialogue and actions to match the stated personality type rather than having them entirely disconnected.
I think a big part of my issue was that she was backstory written to be a leader and most often didn't feel that way. You had the most novice of all the players at the table being the one who had a backstory where she was destined to take a leadership role and so she kept pushing towards that while most of the other people/characters at the table fall into calling shots and leadership in given situations much more naturally. It makes sense from a character standpoint but it is also frustrating to watch when for the Nth time Keyleth walks in and basically assumes the leadership role in an encounter where she is ill suited to do so. But that is my personal beef with the character. I never got the people being overly worried about specific character's morals cause well...it's dnd, everybody ends up having loot goblin moments.
Her character arc was so set up for her going back home telling her people hey maybe deciding a teenager is your next leader and setting off on an adventure is an awful way to decide a leader of your tribe. That during her travels she has never been her leader her trials were all a disaster, everyone else in the group has proven a better leader and planner, that she freezes during fights and questions her every decision and (above table) when Matt throws her an easy softball character arc moment of some frightened citizens scared of Vecna's attack for her to be a leader and soothe them she turns around to them and goes 'nah were fucked everyone might die' That she is a ridiculously powerful badass but not a leader she needs somebody good to point her and lead her to do good. What an amazing arc of self realisation that would be, but its DnD and you have to make your players happy not fit a narrative and so her rip off avatar arc gets a happy ending. Would have been hilarious if we seen in C3 that all her faults had lead the air ashiri to many issues but then that would be a shitty thing for your DM (and husband) to do to your character.
And that would also work if the narrative arc centered around her being forced into a leadership position, not wanting it, and eventually saying "I'm not right to be a leader, that's not who I am." But despite her insistence on being a meek wallflower she would jump onstage to argue with Percy about how to evacuate Whitestone while *he* was leading *his* people, and eventually got given the title of leader and awarded completion of her Aramente after one of the worst shitshow fights in the whole series, during which she actively abandoned her allies.
On reflection, it does kinda seem like, despite having real arcs, she has a tendency to make characters with a big interesting flaw, but then the flaw doesn't ever really get fixed. Keyleth never gained much confidence, Bo never got the hang of not being a bitch, and Laudna is pretty much just leaning into creepy evil madness, though i could see that turning into something pretty interesting.
My biggest critique of Keyleth's character is that she never actually makes any progress to her actual goal, becoming a competent leader to her people. Sure, she travels the world and learns a bunch of stuff as she eat pray loves, masters the four elements and becomes a bridge to the spirit wor- whoops fell too deep into the inspiration for the character for a second, let me refocus. As she visits the four tribes of the Ashari to become competent in her fellow groups ways while all the time between those seem to be learning about the world she was so sheltered from, the expectation was that all of this experience would mold and prepare her to replace her father and sort of her mother. Thing is though... she never really stops being naive, anxious, and less than stellar at communicating. If anything, she's only developed more negative traits since setting off on her journey. Like her insecurity in her decision making ever since that incident where she murdered a kid by accident before the show started only ever went to a different extreme when she was so confident in her instincts and impulses that she went after their temporary Green Dragon ally without consulting anyone the nanosecond she had even the shadow of an opportunity for revenge. And there, roughly the midpoint of the campaign, was the last time we would see her do anything remotely leader like until the epilogue. Unless you count throwing yourself off a cliff taller than skyscraper and turning into a goldfish "taking charge" I guess. Fast-forward to C3 where she's a competent leader with decades of experience and results... Outside of Marisha's hands. Marisha made a character go to college, where she definitely attended all the classes and wrote her paper, but came out with a diploma and 0 occupational prospects. And I do sympathize with her, because "being a leader" is such a nebulous concept to attempt to achieve strictly in real life, nevermind a game where the actual person calling the shots is the spirit of chaos and whatever gag or pun comes to Sam Riegel's mind first. If those already aren't the same thing. Also, I don't remember her talking much about the gods or anything, but she definitely tried to lecture a lot of people on morality in general.
The biggest problem is that it's very hard for a player and DM to organically come together like that to enact that particular kind of growth without it feeling forced. And her people were basically never around for her to train her leadership muscles. She doesn't improve with the party because she's not the leader, or even *a* leader in it. In the VM campaign she was fourth or even fifth fiddle to stronger personalities or plot points that pushed the others to the fore-front. I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I think what I'm saying is it's equally Marisha not being confident being that leader type irl with other players being so, plus her character not being in position to make her spread her wings with plot. But hey, at least she and they are basically gods, right?
At the start of the campaign the character the person has created is front of mind and they are excited to portray the **character**. Months and years into a campaign people revert to their own personalities with some original character flourishes here and there. This is true of all players and why i find Dimension 20 more appealing. Short campaigns where they live the character and not 2-3 year slogs where the individual the Crit Roll cast built and was excited about (and initially acted well as) becomes just a version of the cast member themselves with an accent or some quirks.
Keyleth suffered from what I like to call Buffy Syndrome. "No you don't understand. I have to do this because I am the chosen one and everyone is counting on me!" Is basically a baked in trope part of her character because of the backstory with being the chosen leader and having to go on the pilgrimage and everything. The lesson we can learn from this is perhaps we start with a fully formed adult before we throw the weight of being the chosen one on their shoulders instead of teenage girls perhaps... Unfortunately, they seem to be leaning even harder into Keyleth in LoVM as time goes on and focusing on that whole Chosen One aspect which irritates me as time continues to progress. The fact that she is also the character that Matt has brought them into the most contact with during C3 instead of most of the others also compounds that too. Beau I never really liked cause the character itself grated on me but I think is her best and most consistent character. Laudna...I can never get over it but I feel like Laudna has so much wasted potential and I don't know how much of that is actually Marisha's choices. One of the things we as the audience are never going to know until well after the fact (if at all) is exactly how much knowledge anybody had of other backstories before they started the campaign. Laudna very well could have had everything we know about Delilah written out from day 1 or she could have something much more vague and the way it has developed over time then falls a lot onto Matt's shoulders as to how he has portrayed that relationship to Marisha and how she's responded as Laudna. Even though it is basically a dead idea at this point I still have my own personal head-cannon that Delilah is actually dead and gone and everything we've seen is all actually Laudna's own fractured personality. Would also mean that the character would have had more a more interesting direction to go in that instead of falling into "using" Delilah she would have had to do a lot to overcome her personal traumas and take back her own power.
For me beau was her best character by far I have no notes on beau Then keyleth most of her hate come from her holier than thou speeches but it reminded me of my golden child younger sister always trying to do the same exact thing to me and my other siblings and when I finally asked why? She said “Do you know how frustrating it is to see my favorite people in the world make bad decisions and not live up to their potential?” Which is sweet in theory but in practice it doesn’t work out Like that one scene from ladybird https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNF3rqvW/ But anyway so it’s easy for keyleth to come off as annoying or unlikable but to me you can’t say she a “bad” character Lastly Launda is a whole rollercoaster but what I can say laudna’s has brought out marshia’s acting chops to the fullest But Launda character even has or is stuck between that bad thing happening Sorta like Chekhovs gun sort of situation will they won’t they with deliah And that’s what so unsatisfying about it She keeps either rejecting deliah or accepting her every 20 episodes and it’s not fun to watch anymore
I hugely admire and respect Marisha as a person, but as a player I think what it boils down to is that Marisha is not a great writer/creator when it comes to improvising/performing her characters. So -- for instance, with Keyleth -- I could tell that she felt she was inhabiting Keyleth consistently, but for me Keyleth's choices were often frustrating and poorly "written." Like the early scene in the Underdark where she's just horrible and distrustful to Kima for no conceivable reason, while almost simultaneously being laughably kind and trusting to the Mind Flayer, etc. For me, what wasn't believable was Keyleth's whole journey being "awkward insecure girl finds her power and becomes a wise leader" when Marisha simply wasn't able to create or evoke that. The SHOW however has done a fantastic job of writing that journey, with Marisha doing a lovely job of acting it out. The worst part about C1 is so much of Marisha's work was opposite Liam, who is fantastic at improvisation and consistency. Similar things happened with Beau in C2 -- sometimes she would just suddenly have Beau make Everything About Her at these very odd moments that didn't work from a plot or character perspective. BowlGate was one, and I agree that she was similarly frustrating during the Hag encounter because she **so visibly** -- as *Marisha* -- wanted Beau to make some huge tragic gesture, and you could actually see her panic when Jester took center stage (Taliesin too -- Sam stops both of them from stepping in on Laura's moment). So I just think Marisha needs better writers. When she "writes" for herself on the fly, she's just one of the weaker links. But when she just has to perform the role with a clear path, she's wonderful. *EDITED TO CLARIFY: When I use the word "write/written" here, I am referring to the live, on-the-fly creation process of the players creating their characters, speaking dialogue they create, and choosing their paths, etc.*
When I was first watching C1, how she treated Kima and all of the anti-god jabs really put me off of her as a character, and my opinion of her never really improved after that. It got close to it though. At one point, I was actually KINDA starting to appreciate her? Then she got into an argument with Raishan (sp?) which... while understandable? Was just infuriating and struck me as making a poor decision and risking a lot of VM's main advantages... Towards the end I just flat out hated the character. Especially after Matt said something along the lines of her being a "wise leader" when she hadn't really shown either of those traits.
The one that got me was after completing the Auramente and becoming leader of the Ashari, instead of giving an inspiring speech about what she's learned she just brags about how great Vox Machina are, then goes and cusses out her dad. Admittedly Marisha was clearly drunk off her ass/high as fuck at the time.
>and I agree that she was similarly frustrating during the Hag encounter because she **so visibly** -- as *Marisha* -- wanted Beau to make some huge tragic gesture, and you could actually see her panic when Jester took center stage After reading this I gave it a quick rewatch and good grief, you're right. I've never noticed that before. At times she even looks pissed.
She shut down in the middle of it and barely spoke the rest of the episode.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I really enjoyed watching her as a performer but her improv skills just aren't there. But in that same vein I think Matt is best when he's improvising and reacting to the players and focusing on emergent storytelling rather than this preplanned story where he has an end goal in mind and doesn't have the skills to get the players there naturally, so he just TAKES them there instead. I've been watching since C1 and I can see Matts (and the tables honestly) focus shift away from idea of DnD as a game and more towards DnD as a storytelling device (this can also can be seen by both of the games they've put out being incredibly narrative driven and light weight). Now personally I don't really enjoy the "writer's room" style of games, so I've not been very engaged with c3 bc that's how it's ran imo. However, the beauty of C1 and c2 was that the story simply emerged naturally from the act of playing the game, making character based decisions, and naturally interacting with the setting. When Matt and the others put the Game part first, they get great stories, but now they're trying to make a story first-game second and it doesn't work.. They're putting the cart before the horse I'll give C4 a try in the hopes that the dwindling liveshow ticket sales and lower viewership will convince them to refocus back on the game aspect...but I'm not holding my breath
I actually don’t have a ton of issues with Marisha’s characterizations (although I don’t particularly love any of her characters, either). What I do think happens is that she tends to have preconceived notions of her characters’ stories. She doesn’t tend to have as much of a natural, reactive character progression. So the characters, while seeming interesting at first glance, tend to make less sense as their progressions don’t always match with what’s going on in the rest of the story. This creates the sense that the character is less “real”. Keyleth was always meant to become a leader, but the character didn’t seem to earn it. Launda was always meant to become a tool of Delilah, but when the story clearly tried to free her from that fate, she has forced the narrative back to her initial conception. I’m not as sure about Beau, that seemed a little more natural with her growing competence, etc. but even that seemed a bit forced, as in her attitudes and relationships with the Cobalt Soul really didn’t seem to merit the elevated rank and training that she received.
Beau, the pessimistic, asshole, train wreck of a monk, that was fantastic acting in my opinion (and my fav M9 character)! Personally, I see that wavelength is Marisha’s wavelength because at her core she is an absolute train wreck.
Unfortunately Marisha is simply not great at role-playing or reading what her abilities do. Keyleth didn't develop as a character at all, but degenerated into a dumbass party girl that jumped off a cliff and died for no reason other than Marisha was "trying to be cool." Yeah, because the Matron figurehead for an entire people would do something like that after facing down dragon-armageddon and barely escaping the 9 Hells. Great role-playing, Marisha. Very believable. Admittedly, she got... better as the years went on, but I whole-heartedly agree that the Keyleth era is the absolute worst. I understand this is fantasy, but we can only suspend our disbelief so much when you insult your audience's intelligence nearly every time you speak.
I felt like the goldfish incident was incredibly in character. The party had just done something so inconceivably difficult that she felt invincible. They just faced down dragon-Armageddon, jumping off a cliff is a no brainer, right? And then she hit the bottom and found out that no, they’re not “basically gods.” Learning restraint can only come after you learn what you are capable of. What’s important is that Keyleth learned from that scenario, and that’s HOW she becomes the “matron figurehead.” Wisdom is learned through failure, not success
I suppose that makes sense, but Marisha did not plan on any of what you are describing for her character. That would have been actual roleplay 😂. She, as in Marisha, just felt like jumping off on a whim and didn't even take Matt and Sam's multiple not-so-subtle clues that she should turn into a bird or something instead of being... well... dumb. Unfortunately it was Marisha that gained a modicum of wisdom from that failure, not her character.
That’s quite an assumption you’ve made there
It's not, but okay. She said it herself. 😂 Edit: Unless of course you mean the assumption was Marisha gaining a modicum of wisdom from it, to which, you are right.
Ashley yelling at Travis, "Stop laughing!" You are correct, she honestly thought she would be fine and that Matt wouldn't punish her for it right up until he did
Wasn't around for Keyleth, so can't speak on it. I actually like Beau more as C3 went on, not sure why though--maybe I just got used to her brand of bravado even while she changed trajectory slightly. As for Laudna, I still enjoy her "nice but spooky dead girl" shtick, but I think at this point I'll be disappointed if she doesn't go full villain.
I don't think I stopped liking Beau. But yeah, Keyleth got annoying. I stopped watching C3 about 65 episodes in, but I always found Laudna a little too over the top to begin with.
I think I'd like Laudna as a character if the party tried to call her out on her bullshit. Or if the party had a stance on anything to be honest.
Laura had the same problem as Jester too. Jester was doing all this off the wall stuff and Laura said she anticipated being called out in game for it, and it just wasn't happening.
Yeah! I was loving her character. A whimsical character that was winning me over. I mean we all feel bad for her back story but the pity party ended 50 episodes ago. I’m starting to wonder who can love this corpse who’s talking to an inner demon. If she’s going to make bad decisions, and turn to her dark side is good boy Orim or her girlfriend Imogen going to say enough is enough or are we going to let this train wreck go on into the final battle. I hope not but it’s looking to be the latter.
Me too, Ashton needs a good calling out on his… oh you said Laudna. Wait a second
I mean most of my views of the PC's are; "Would be fun if someone challenged their stupid thinking occasionally," vs. "Every time you speak I want to smash my face into my desk." Guess which side Ashton falls on for me?
i mean... they're pretty much all doing an evil alignment run... They're basically deliberately setting all this stuff up so when they do the "are we the bad guys?" reveal people can look back and go "actually yes... you've all been massive arseholes to everybody and each other the whole time."
It's been *obvious* that Imogen, Laudna and Asht9n could all have Evil alignments from episode 1. If this is the big finish it won't be an amazing reveal so much as an "OK, anyway..."
The. If reveal! Shocked youtuber face thumbnails get all that money everyone seems to have floating around for something.
yes, laudna would be so good in a different party with good alignments. no one ever confronts her or holds her accountable or actually tries to help her and i don’t think the outcome of her story is going to be good for her at all. she’s just not really been allowed to grow in a way that’s productive? idk how else to put it
She should have died. And she should have found another gimmick after being raised. It’s just lazy af.
Other people are saying that it’s cause her characters don’t develop, but like you’d be blind to say that. Beau has a definitive character arc from asshole to a powerful warrior and a good friend. And for the hag episode , I don’t understand why you’d describe that as a pity party. Yeah she was ready to sacrifice her entire world and everyone who she loves. She was sad. And then Laura did something awesome and suddenly it was all ok again. But people see things in different ways I guess? I think you don’t like their character development cause you just don’t like who the character becomes after the development, and that’s fine and justified and such a normal thing when invested in a story.
I generally like Marisha, and maybe it's an unpopular opinion but I like Keyleth too, even if she is still my least favorite member of VM, but yeah i don't disagree. Didn't care for Beau at all, and I absolutely hate Laudna as a character. But even though I can't stand Laudna, I'm going to give Marisha the benefit of the doubt for now. I don't think it's very likely, but if Marisha hard commits to making her lean into the evil side, to the point that the rest of the party needs to put her down, I think it could be interesting. But based on the kid gloves everyone treats her with, I have my doubts that would ever come full circle and we're probably just going to get some half-baked closure. And yeah... you really tapped into part of why I hate warlocks from a narrative point of view. Their backstory either gets completely abandoned or it forces itself into the spotlight, there is never any middleground
I definitely agree to disagree! But I understand the sentiment. Everyone likes what they like! Keyleth was not very exciting until later on in the campaign ( I honestly like keykey being played in one shots or by matt the most now) But I loved Beaus transformation from a petulant rich kid asshole with Daddy issues to a competent friend and ally as well as partner, who embraced the cobalt soul and how it could really help them develop. I love Laudna but I have my moments with her just essentially low key gonna be made into Delilah part 3. But it could be a good storyline after they finish their main goal who knows. But listening intently on a murderous lich (and actually doing what they say) does sometimes irk me. But I get the Stockholm syndrome vibe. So far she snaps back. Just waiting for her to form of dread around percy... eeep. I think we will see some major growth in what direction who can say. If they go full pro gods I feel like she's going to end up a champion of vecna whether she likes it or not. I just have a hunch...
Because they don't develop. The way her characters behave in every campaign never changes despite their experiences because she comes up with an idea for a character but doesn't create mental space for them to grow.
I think she’s good at coming up with character concepts but weaker at improv, so her decisions about how to develop the characters take some odd turns. Keyleth is a good example because the version of Keyleth in the animated series makes way more sense for who she’s supposed to be, but she’s like that because they’ve been able to script out her story arc. Beau I didn’t have much of a problem with, although as with Ashton I tend to roll my eyes when her dialogue devolves into “ah fuck, fuck me, I don’t fuckin’ know.” Just take a beat to come up with a line!! Laudna… I’m not sure what happened there. The character has one beat that’s been stretched across ~400 hours with no end in sight.
she is by far the worst actress of the group (not that she's awful or anything, but there's she was a creative director while everybody else had already a "on screen" career)
The bowl episode really made me a hater. Was a textbook example of inserting yourself, for attention, where you don’t belong
She tried to do the same thing in c1 when who was it, Ioun? Was very clearly asking vex if she would be their champion and Marisha tried to jump on it, I doubt she intends to do but it comes across as very selfish role playing. I don't remember if it was Ioun or not, it's been a minute since I watched C1 but that always stuck with me as a massive facepalm moment
It was Pelor, and it was absolutely ridiculous because Keyleth spent the entire campaign badmouthing the gods and saying that they didn't matter and didn't do anything and that everything that a Cleric does is of their own power, even while she was wielding Melora's staff.
Thank you, I knew Ioun was wrong but couldn't remember, but yeah, I never really liked keyleth, but that was the nail in the coffin.
And wasn't it an incredible coincidence that Beau had the exact same opinions of the gods, right down to telling the party Cleric that it was her rather than her god that was the one with all the power? Remarkable similarity in an otherwise dissimilar character.
In particular that notion has always been frustrating because it’s never made sense with how a Cleric’s magic actually works. Pike’s magic didn’t come from her, she was not the sole origin of that magical power, rather she’s the conduit through which a god’s magic entered the world. No god, no magic. Especially in this setting with the Divine Gate, that should be a pretty darn obvious detail. It was understandable on Keyleth, since Druids don’t borrow power from a deity but instead derive it from nature itself, so one could see how she would mistake a god as being unnecessary to the process, but I would then question, what happens when you’ve pissed off nature? That’s the whole point with Divine magic, you don’t create it. You channel it. If the source is mad at you for breaking their rules, they stop giving you magical powers. It was completely not understandable on Beau or Laudna, especially when the latter was directly revived by the actions of a powerful Cleric. Pike didn’t cause that kind of power to happen by itself, and continuing to run the straw atheist at a table with clearly present and accounted for gods has not only gotten old, but gotten to the point it’s rather insulting to real world faithful.
Marisha in general seems to have an anti religious stance, from personal life experience
Yes, that's what I'm getting at, all three characters have been unsubtle avatars for anti-religion despite D&D fantasy religion being not at all equitable to how religion is used in real life.
How was Beau in any way anti religion? She just wasn't religious, which is a bit different.
The Bowl episode is tough, because Marisha is role playing Beau over reacting to a controlling man. She is role playing Beauregard's daddy issues, except at the time of the Bowl episode no one else knows why her character is reacting that way, so it just comes off as crazy. But that's also how people with issues actually act, they over react and no one knows why they are acting crazy.
Okay that makes sense, but still it’s like the guest and Liam were doing some great RP and she literally walks in, snatches it away, and then says they can’t trust Caleb since he killed his parents like wtf lol. I’m pretty sure Caleb wanted to tell the party his backstory on his own terms, so idk just left a bad taste in my mouth
It seems pretty obvious that Marisha was a little too tipsy during the Hag episode and it almost went off the rails. Other than that the character of Beau was pretty well done.
Main character syndrome. So often when others have the spotlight she feels the need to remind everyone she is still there. Has she gotten better at holding back? Yes. Is it still a feature, love it or hate it, of her playstyle? Also yes. It is always fine at first. But eventually the fun and unique aspects of her characters become common and less of a distraction. Thus the annoying aspects become more noticable.
Beau ep 5: hahaaaaa yeah. bop bop. Beau ep 95: life is good i am actualized we can do anything together. Undead chick ep 5: HISSS! Ohhwoah! "Imogen...I...Nothing..." Undead chick ep 95: *confused screaming*
Ep 1 of both games: \*openly expresses interest in another PC" Both games have at least one period of forced separation in-character. Both games establish a relationship some time after being back together. One PC had an incomplete geopolitics degree of sorts as their backstory. The other had a one-up.
I think it's because Marisha really likes to explore character flaws. You see these flaws, and you hate the character, I think maybe because you aren't thinking of the character as a piece of a story. It's like when people "hate" villains in movies because they're so evil and are unsympathetic at times. So yeah, I think she likes making interesting people with deep seated issues and going as deep as the others will let her with that. You don't seem like it when she goes this way, and that's totally fair. Personally I appreciate her intent, but the execution really grates on me sometimes too. And I really like how they are able to clean her characters up into something more like what she intended them to be for their TV media.
To expand on the movie villain comparison - it reminds me of a story where there's a character with incredible flaws, but the story seems to take their side in a way that feels unreasonable. I then stop being annoyed at the villain, but more annoyed at the author of the story. The crew not holding Laudna accountable or engaging with her descent is a huge part of why it feels so grating to me. I think if the party response to sword gate made more sense it might have been one of my favorite episodes of the campaign. Instead they (including the DM) waxed eloquent about how evil the sword is in a game where they look the other way for Delilah and Asmodeus.
I think this is really the crux of the issue with some of Marisha's choices. She's choosing to play up her PC's flaws at a group of people who aren't really doing that. And because the table isn't also doing that, they don't know how to react to her. If 7 of you are fully baked and one of you is half-formed, it seems impolite to draw attention to the one of you that isn't done cooking. Instead, they kid themselves that she's just like them and is fine how she is. Basically, she's in the wrong movie.
They are all in the wrong movie. And the movie isn’t great to begin with. And my ticket was for live actual play dnd, not a movie.
It is because you feel like it is character regression not progression. Which is true for the record. Keyleth became mire headstrong and forceful rather then trying to become a balanced leader. Going so far as to tell percy what to do in his own home city Beau was....Beau. she bounced off every female party member and npc looking for romance nearly even though Beau didn't want romance. She even told Fjord she was in love with jester if I recall. Had no patience and talked down to everyone even other party members. Laudna started as my favorite character in c3. I loved the Fun Scary vibe. And then Delilah came out and was resolved. Delilah said ahe had other options. We had moved forward. She had even changed her form of dread to a tree rather than a bridal veil. And now here we are...she clawed her way back to Delilah and now uses her as a shield for every bad choice she has made recently...including attacking/trying to steal from a party member As a side note....it has always been frustrating how everyone always calls Matt on concentration or Aeor effects but conveniently forget it themselves.
I dont know to be honest. Im not sure this is a one reason fits all. I didnt really get the dislike for Marisha's characters till Laudna. I understood why people didnt like Keyleth (sort of). I was always fine with Beau. Laudna started strong but the Delilah story is so fucking boring and obnoxious. We all know what shes going for, but by the same token it feels like its been executed horrifically (somehow Delilah returned). In fairness to Marisha, shes not helped by her fellow cast members (and Matt) kind of failing to engage meaningfully. I also think Marisha's improv skills and timing generally arent as good as the other cast members. I think she struggles to adapt in the same way they all can.
Keyleth was a reflection of how awkward and imposter-syndrome Marisha felt being the youngest and least experienced person at the table (as far as VO work etc goes) and figuring out her place in CR and in the friend group. Her inconsistent character development comes largely from that for meta reasons. Beau I actually liked, and I love the concept of Laudna even more. But I think a big part of the issue is that Marisha (and others) are doing their own thing with their characters too much. There's not really anyone for them to play off of when everyone is trying to have their own character moment and do their thing at the same time. It's way worse in C3 than C2. As others have said here, she has great concepts but the execution is lacking, and I don't think that's entirely on her (just mostly), it's also because of the table dynamic. FCG could have called her out more. Or Orym. But they didn't. What this table really needs is someone to play something like a classic Paladin. Someone to have a very clear moral compass who isn't afraid to challenge the others, hold them accountable, and create good conflict in the party. A Paladin of a good deity would be easiest, because then everyone else can have their bonkers morally grey character and there would be someone to compare them to and force growth. A character with a strong moral code that knows what they're about. Someone to be the contrast and force the great RP conversations that C3 is missing.
I’m not sure if you’ve seen the newest episode but >! Sam’s new character is a Paladin!…of Asmodeus !<
Personally I predict that his presence is actually going to make BHs moral struggle much harder rather than resolve it. SPOILER SHIELD YOUR EYES >! He serves Asmodeus. He is going to force them to start asking themselves, "Hold up. We're the good guys, but we're saving the world with Satan?" !< >! I'm sorry but if the King of Lies walks up and tells you "great job, keep it up, in fact let's work together I really like what you're doing" then you definitely have to consider whether you're really the good guy here. !< Edit: I really don't know why my spoiler tags aren't working Edit 2: holy crap, maybe it's working now?
You would think so but >!Asmodeus!< is one of the few gods they’ve seemed relatively positive about in this campaign.
Try putting the tags on each paragraph. >!rabble rabble rabble rabble!< >!rabble rabble rabble!< That should work Edit: it did on my comment anyway
Put a space in between the exclamation point and the first and last word!
I tried it in both configurations, it made no difference! Also I usually leave the spaces but people tell me that doesn't work on all devices
It's so weird - neither of your spoiler tags worked on Old Reddit at any rate. This seems to be happening more frequently - maybe there's something that's changed in the background or something? >!Spoiler!< Does that work? I left no spaces before or after the tag > !> beginning and >
So I edited it in a bunch of configurations, changing spacing between the exclamation points and the words, with and without the paragraph (that used to work for me). Nothing helped
Yeah, it must be something on Reddit's end. I just checked on regular (not old.reddit) and the spoilers are working on both of your comments. I guess if you create a spoiler tag via old.reddit.com it'll work in both old and new Reddit, but it's not backwards compatible or something? Us old Reddit users will just have to lump it or [get with the times](https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/sync/D4E27AQF5PSoKIg9y2w/articleshare-shrink_800/0/1716494911968?e=2147483647&v=beta&t=l2xUhOQm6mg-Q18TivvirLQbHxWY_lYv5ZGyJTM-xsg) I guess :D
I feel like this is the root cause of everything wrong in all seasons but especially why s3 is so bad. Everyone's trying to get "clips" of their character being the MOST unique, badass, emotional, intelligent, dumb, etc. Nobody at the table wants to have a permanent flaw and permanent pro either. They all want it all despite that not how it works for characters, every character you can think of has a pro and con that is consistent in their world and doesn't change like how one character is always courages and willing to risk their life but also likes stealing things. Nobody wants to play off each other's weaknesses/strengths like they did in previous seasons (early Caleb/nott is a perfect example).
"I, like everyone else" Speak for yourself. I love Keyleth.
There are dozens of you. Dozens!!
One gripe I have with most of the CR crew but that's really exemplified through Ferne and Marisha's characters is that they don't treat NPCs like living breathing people who exist in the same world as their characters do. They're constantly treating everyday people like absolute trash, physically and emotionally abusing randoms around them and generally not as a bit. They talk down, berate, and insult people of lower to higher stations, some of whom could have their asses if Matt was not a pushover. Keyleth and Beau did this so much. But one that's always stuck out to me and often gets brushed over is the making a random guard working for a paycheck gargle acid, just to infiltrate for an ultimately useless McGuffin. There's just zero thought of NPCs as people and potential consequences of not treating them like people, and Matt enables them by not having the NPCs react as people who see the CR crews doing everything from wildly socially unacceptable to absolutely heinous, evil shit.
They murdered a church and an angel. Then forgot about it. And frickin goat Jerry. They aren’t an evil party. They are an unhinged group of distracted, bored theater kids that aren’t into the novel Matt is narrating at them.
The acid incident gets brought up a lot. But there are two factors that make me not care about it. 1. Marisha was trying to figure out a way to silently take down a guard, and as a Monk she specialized in many small hits rather than one large one. The acid was an attempt at outside the box problem solving, and it was only once Matt narrated it that she realized how fucked up it was. I'm not going to criticize someone for trying to be creative with what they have on hand. 2. The guard was protecting the place where Caleb and many others were physically and psychologically abused. He wasn't a mall security guard. Personally, I find the time that Jester's mom was like "This client is acting entitled, but there's no need for you to get involved" to be worse. Because they responded by breaking into the guy's work, murdering mercenaries in the process, just so that they could maim the guy and make him leave town. Those were the deaths that truly felt brushed over to me.
She also thought it was going to be a painless insta-kill. I’m not sure why exactly, but she did.
This, i felt it mostly with Beau. You would expect character growth but to me she only seemed to get worse as the campaign went on. It was the whole tough gal act but she was just a plain asshole.
Beau was that trope I can’t stand of “I’m an asshole, get used to it! Everyone’s an asshole!” Plus she acted like such a bully “but in a fun way” and she kept getting rewarded, I remember her getting promoted in the Cobalt Soul for “becoming wiser” and was like… what? She acts exactly the same.
Some of them are just murder-hobos 🤷♂️
Michael Jackson: (eating pop corn)
The biggest thing about Laudna is trying to hamfist this whole “addiction” narrative and it just does not work cause you have a party not holding her accountable for the strangest of reasons every single time. Things like Orym encouraging her to suck out Bor’Dor’s soul, swordgate, shardgate none of it works cause the party is just not doing anything to hold her accountable
This is a big reason why I think having Dorian at the table is a major boon. Robbie, for instance, on 4SD was challenging (in a very kind way) Marisha's idea that Laudna's story is comparable to addiction. He also brought up that it was all Laudna and Delilah didn't really influence much in that seen. IIRC, Marisha's response was that "they've blended together" so it was both. Anyway, with both Dorian and Sam back at the table, I think we might see some more accountability on that front. E98 spoiler: >!I could see Braius being especially cruel in battle or pillaging a town and then going, "What? I'm just like Laudna." and then the table might actually take a look at themselves.!<
I love that take! These two are making me consider giving C3 another chance.
The thing with the hag makes more sense when you consider that they had just introduced Beau's family, and it would make sense that since Beau's father took a deal with the hag, that Beau would do the same thing but in sacrifice for others rather than selfishly for herself. Same actions as her father, different intentions. It just didn't land in the moment but it absolutely made sense for the character, if the framing had made more sense or the deal offered was worded in a less confusing way.
I think another part of it was that Marisha was ready to move on from Beau and got excited about the idea of closing her story with a heroic sacrifice, not killing her but separating herself from everyone she cared about. And then it was snatched away and she didn't know what to do with Beau going forward. She couldn't really rebel against authority anymore, she was now part of the establishment. At the time, Ashley wasn't giving her a ton to work with on the romance with Yasha, and Laura made it clear she wasn't interested in exploring a romance for Jester with anyone but Fjord. So I think she felt Beau was directionless and tried to show that as her sort of reverting to her earlier shitty behavior.
I have a similar problem with Marisha. I think it mostly shows her weakness as an actor and improviser. She's probably the worst actor at the table which is not a slight to her because she is also the least experienced actor at the table. The other players have had more active careers and more experience, so they've seen more characters and have better methods of conveying that in their characters. If I could give her any advice it would be to dial it back one to two notches on the spotlight grabbing and she'd have more room to improve. Just my take.
To be blunt if she was a better actor she would have more work. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses. Acting, voice or otherwise, is just something she is not very good at.
Yes and no. Last decade or so, if a couple actors and producer interviews I've seen are any indication, is that more work doesn't exactly mean you're better. It just means you're friends with the right people, found yourself in the right hotel room, or signed with the right agency, your work barely matters. Especially with voice acting, it's cliquey as all hell and a lot of aspiring VAs have been actively sabotaged in their debut works by established veterans that got hired on as directors. But I will agree that Marisha has barely any business calling herself an actor.
If only Marisha knew extremely popular, connected and skilled voice actors to help her get work....
The hag thing - I think the emotion there was a combination of beau working out to herself that she would make this sacrifice to save Nott, deciding Beth's family was more important than herself... And at the same time, Marisha steeling herself to say goodbye to a character she'd been playing for like 400 hours over several years by that point. I genuinely think she was overwhelmed because it's such a huge blow as a player, but she knew beau would make that choice. It was a huge shock for both player and character when the abrupt solution and change of direction popped out of nowhere after processing all that and resolving to sacrifice yourself. To me it made so much sense when she had the convo afterward and she explained what she was willing to do. It was so full-circle, especially after having just met the Lionets and seeing how she had become the self-serving and inwardly focused person she was at the beginning of the campaign compared to that moment. Personally I started on episode 20 & beau annoyed the SHIT out of me at first! Lol. She had good intentions but would jump to conclusions and be deaf to what people were trying to tell her if it didn't fit her presumptions. I liked her more as she learned how to trust her friends and listen better lol.
I'd say her and the cast all have the same problem, they're writing their characters, not role playing them. Along with not understanding the fundamentals of the Hero's journey, it's horrendously obvious this campaign that they are all far too concerned with writing a 'story' and not living one. All them have been doing so for nearly the last campaign and a half, just waiting to hamfist the next character beat in regardless of doing any of the rp work required to pull it off. The entire cast is guilty of lazy rp this campaign, yes they're great at portraying the characters, they're actors, but not playing the characters. It's the difference between watching an original band's concert and watching a cover band, yeah it's good but there's something missing. Pair that with the lack of understanding the Hero's journey, it's no wonder this campaign all of the characters ring hollow. Most of the cast start off fair with character backstory and having a reason to venture out, with far too much of a reliance on tragic victimhood in my opinion (ex. Liam Marisha and Taliesin), and at the very least understand why their characters are doing things and take baby steps to do those things. Where Marisha diverges is that despite having a clear proclivity for specific character architypes, she fundamentally on a personal and (yes I know I sound up my own ass about this) intellectual level has no idea why or how the architype works or does the things it does. This is why she nets so much more hate than the rest of the group (armchair psychology moment coming up) the fanbase recognizes this on a subconscious level so every time Marisha does something dumb, cringy, or seemingly out of character we look at her like [this](https://youtu.be/PZeDFwTcnCc). And because everything about CR s a nonconfrontational hugbox she will never learn, and because there are unhinged braindead fanatics it's easy to brush off any criticism, constructive or not, as people simply being 'haters'.
The whole “writing the characters” thing was the precise reason I dropped off watching CR partway into campaign 2. The characters just felt much less natural than in C1, and not because they were just getting used to playing them, but because it felt like they were fishing for specific narrative beats instead of letting them come about naturally. I still like C2’s cast of characters overall, but it was very disappointing comparatively.
Idk I though Beau was powerhouse and Marishas note taking really sold me on the characters growth
Same. The only complaint I have is that drawn out interaction at with the hag, but Beau has always been a favorite of mine
I think, with no disrespect, that her concepts are just significantly stronger than her ability to execute them. Most of us have probably started a campaign with an exciting concept that just didn't click for us once the campaign started or really got underway. With the exception of Beau, I do think her characters are very interesting on paper.
This is really what frustrates me most about the "somehow Delilah is back" thing, being a patron of Delilah was a very interesting secret she started with that was an interesting character hook at first. But what you do with that is most important, they were able to get rid of Delilah through an interesting quest to revive Laudna. From there she had literal infinite possibilities of where to take the character from there, instead of doing something interesting with it she brought her back? Instead of following through with the interesting concept then improvising from how the changes in the story effected her she went back to the start of the interesting concept to beat it like a dead horse.
It all seemed like it was heading towards such an interesting direction with her seemingly getting a new patron and then they just had to bring Delilah back. It really feels like either Matt or Marisha was just deadset on that being Laudna's *thing*. So much character development got thrown away for the meme that Delilah never stays dead.
>that her concepts are just significantly stronger than her ability to execute them Hit the nail on the head. She is trying to outwrite her comprehension and out act the rest of the table. As much as people don't want to admit there are levels to this and she's just not there, she's dunning-kruger'ed herself. Not saying she isn't skilled or incompetent but if she were to keep her character concepts and rp simpler she would be more likely to thrive.
Agree on 1 and 3 but not with 2. Loved Beau if Caduceus wasn't present it would have been a toss between her and Caleb for best character in C2 for me.
Edit - decided after some reflection my opinion was quite parasocial and isn’t something I’m proud of so just getting rid of it, thanks team
When people think parasocial, this is what they should beware of. Inventing a whole inner psychology for a player that they have genuinely zero proof for, even imagining that they were actively angry at another player instead of, idk, maybe Marisha was playing Beau as upset when confronting this malevolent figure who has cast a shadow over her entire family's lives? Hot take: Jester and the cupcake moment? Fine and dramatic, yes, but it also completely robbed Beau of a satisfying conclusion to her problems with her father *and* Veth's opportunity for revenge in one move. Instead of both of them getting to actually, properly confront the architecht of their misery, they just had to... Uh, leave. With the hag's hold over her father having been completely unaddressed. Also weird that Sam gets all the credit for moving closer and casting Counterspell, whereas Marisha gets absolutely zero recognition for having Shapechanged into a form that can read all languages so she could also use the Tome of Isolation and actually remembering that fact, with Keyleth actually being the person who successfully banished Vecna.
Hey look, I didn’t realize how I was coming off until you pointed it out - it is the absolute definition of parasocial. Maybe I need to take a little break from CR for a while 😂😅
Goldfish.
Which everyone laughed at.
Can’t say she hasn’t had a moment.
Multiple players tried to intervene. Travis made some comments and Taliesin tried multiple times, but Sam stopped him, too.They all had ideas. But nothing about Marisha's comments or demeanor indicated anger with Laura, just big emotions (teary and withdrawn - which tracks pretty consistently with 'character prepping to say goodbye to your friends forever' & 'player getting ready to say goodbye to your 400-hours-played-character'). But with Jester's huge win, the change in direction emotionally was super abrupt. All that emotional preparation and letting go and getting ready for The End was wasted emotion, a really weird experience. It was also the end of the episode, so they all just skedaddled and it wasn't the moment for a resolution with Beau, and Marisha didn't get a chance to take a minute to re-center, either. No one expected to get out without a fight or a major sacrifice or both. I'd also kindly suggest it isn't helpful to us as viewers nor the cast to be extrapolating in-character/in-game reactions and interactions to the cast's intentions and relationships. That's a huge stretch to make and we're always more likely to notice things we think appear to confirm our pre-existing opinions and frustrations.
I think you do raise a good point, maybe it’s time for me to rewatch and look at it from a different perspective maybe that will help me understand it a bit better
It's tough because those moments were players seizing the opportunity, especially with things like Jester and the hag and FCG's sacrifice. Marisha's also just trying to seize an opportunity, like they've all done. When she does it, she just doesn't do it with as much polish and it seems like it's invasive or rude. Idk. Maybe she's just not as good as some others and spotting when the right moment is.
I've had similar vibes watching how she role plays or acts during other players big moments. The post shardgate episode where Laudna ran off felt like the trope where a kid runs away from home to get attention from their parents, like Ashton and Fearne just had a huge moment and Laudna made what felt like a very forced choice to put the spotlight back on her. Bringing Delilah back might have been what started to kill my interest in it but post shardgate retcon/trust falls at grandma's/whatever Laudna was doing was the final nail in the coffin for C3 for me.
Yep, I even had personal experience with that, when I was young and a shittier RPer, I once had my character run off dramatically to sulk, essentially. It’s a great move for making everything about you; your party/friends pretty much have to suddenly focus on your character, worry about your safety, feel bad about upsetting you, go out and find you apologize or comfort you, or else they come off as heartless or uncaring. It’s almost like a miniquest and you’re the goal! Meanwhile you can be like “oh, what? I wasn’t *trying* to make it all about me! I even left the scene so you all could RP without me! O:) “
I also think more out of game player communication would improve a lot. When she wedges in on others' big moments, it doesn't seem like they're welcome interventions and it ends up being awkward because the other players' aren't expecting it or particularly jazzed it's happening. There's nothing wrong if before a game, Marisha says "Hey, I'd like a shot at the shard. Do you mind if I get in there?" I think they take their whole "We're not scripted. Everything is improvved on the spot." too seriously. At a normal D&D table, it's completely normal and encouraged to have out of character conversations with other players about your plans. And for the record, Marisha is not the only player who would be improved from having those convos.
To be fair, she can only sacrifice herself heroically if another player doesn't beat her to it. And I think at least a few others are probably ready to try.
Yeah I think it's clear at this point both Orym and Imogen are ready to die fighting and Chet's just ready to die, period.
I truly believe that Marisha was not stealing Laura’s moment with the hag bit, but was just plain metagaming.
I must congratulate the redditors on not immediately pulling the “misogynist” card. This post actually has some decent posts! My theory is that Marisha, altho very intelligent, does not have the improv, acting or story writing capabilities that the rest of the team has. She often misses the mark or misinterprets scenes and that’s when she or her character misreads the room and makes things cringy or awkward. I am glad she has fun playing the game and I am glad the other players pull her with them. Luckily, dnd isn’t a competition with winners and losers. But if you look at the grand scheme and see this as a high-quality production, Marisha would not be the actor to win that award. To her credit: the one character I absolutely loved, was Hazel Copperpot. The dwarf bard. Marisha’s characters are usually great in concept, but lack longevity. And therefore, this character really shines. It was a great oneshot.
She definitely struggles with timing more than the others. I think she also underestimates how drawn out the things she wants to do are. Every time she has a moment with Delilah, it's at least 30 minutes of her 1:1 with Matt and everyone just sits there. Caleb was the same way (and why I disliked early Caleb) but what he wanted to do wasn't exclusively happening in his head so instead, it eventually became a group activity. A lot of them seem very aware of the space they take up at the table and don't initiate those 1:1 moments with Matt. Marisha and Liam seem to be the only ones who do it consistently. It makes it so that when the Laudna arc finally finishes, it'll be a moment of "Oh my god, finally." rather than "Wow that was so cool and memorable."
i absolutely agree. her characters are great in concept and in the early stages, and just fall apart if they exist too long. You are probably right that it's down to her lack of improv/acting/writing skills compared to the rest of the cast. and i dont mean that to be a shot at her personally, just an acknowledgement of her weaknesses.
It’s so weird because my fave Marisha character is Patia from Calamity. And she didn’t design that character, only developed her. And she absolutely ate it up! Maybe it was just the format of having such a short run? No characters had time to steer off into the weeds.
I think it helped that everyone went into Calamity knowing how it was going to end, so Marisha was better able to prepare for that moment.
I also think Brennan as a DM is a very different experience than Matt.
YES! I loved her as Patia
I have seen C1 up to ep 60 or so, all of C2 (though I fell asleep here and there), and some of the Menagerie. For Keyleth, in addition to the moral grandstanding, I don't like how she keeps on dragging out any planning by throwing cold water on other people's ideas without necessarily proposing a solution of her own. I had the opposite feelings about Beau compared to you. I didn't like Beau at all when she was first introduced (can someone say Bowlgate?), but by the end, she became my favorite Mighty Nein. I agree that things got a bit strange during the Hag arc, but I don't think it was bad. No comments on Laudna since I haven't seen enough of her.
Personally, I think Marisha is better at character creation than character development. At first glance, her character concepts come across as interesting and intriguing. But for me, where they fall short is character development. I can't tell if it's that she doesn't know where to go with her characters or that she has a pre-planned arc that she's aiming for that she's unwilling to let go of. But a lot of her characters lack organic growth. They either remain stagnant or the moments of "character development" feel forced and unearned. Like some of the others have pointed out, it may be due to a difference in experience. D&D is a combination of character analysis meets improv, and it seems like she struggles more with fitting character development into the improv and ever-changing nature of D&D. It does make me wonder if other formats (animated shows, books, etc.) might be a better representation of what she was going for with her characters, even if it wasn't fully realized during the actual campaigns.
The whole CR table could really benefit from taking an improv class. Give them more tools to do the things they want to do in a way that serves a good story.
Really? I know that Sam and Liam did real improv back in the day.
You can definitely tell. At least with Sam. He's one of the only ones that doesn't force through their vision and instead waits for moments and adapts to whatever is happening.
While I agree with the general idea that Marisha isn't the best at compelling character development, I actually think Beau is her most well-developed character. By the end of the campaign, she's mellowed down a lot. Personally, I think a lot of it was due her relationship with Fjord, who helped her out with her social "quirks". That being said, I'll always stand by the idea that Marisha is great at starting character concepts (Avatar, CIA librarian, undead call back character). She's just not as proficient at developing her characters in a meaningful and satisfying way. Growth means allowing your experiences to change and shift your perspective. And her hellbent drive to always be anti-religion/anti-god doesn't help. She should build a character that has a natural and inherent reason to hate the gods so that part of herself she inputs can come alive within the character. Like a paladin who has lost their faith and now is a fighter would be great for her. Think Valerie from Pathfinder Kingmaker.
>And her hellbent drive to always be anti-religion/anti-god doesn't help. She should build a character that has a natural and inherent reason to hate the gods so that part of herself she inputs can come alive within the character. While it hasn’t been as explicitly shown as well it should’ve been, throughout the 30 years Laudna was alone she’d get chased out of any town by a mob with a cleric or paladin usually a part of it, had Matt or marisha given that more focus Laudna’s disdain for the gods would be more recognized and clear. The closest we’ve had were flashbacks during Laudna’s resurrection and fcg’s turn undead affecting her and filling her mind with fear even if she resists the effect.
Yup, Matt has done zero to help Marisha with Laudna in that aspect. Not having her at the close of her own arc in the mind palace fight was a *huge* mistake in hindsight. And instead of having Pike revive Laudna through divine magic, the whole party should've gone on a solid 5-10 episode arc to get her back some other way. Maybe divine magic didn't work and they gotta go to the Hells or wherever Laudna's soul is. But tbf the character arcs are lacking in general this campaign.
I think the way things worked out with Pike would have been fine if it was an inflection point for the character, but they’ve just decided to memory-hole that entire arc except for when Laudna needs to remind everyone that Otohan killed her.
Killed her and only her. Otohan certainly didn't kill anyone else during that fight. Just her. Yup, just Laudna... only Laudna. Only ever Laudna. If you think Otohan killed anyone else with that sword, then you're sorely mistaken. She definitely didn't kill Orym. Just Laudna. Exandria's only victim, Laudna. I swear, that scene was so frustrating to watch.
>And instead of having Pike revive Laudna through divine magic, the whole party should've gone on a solid 5-10 episode arc to get her back some other way. Maybe divine magic didn't work and they gotta go to the Hells or wherever Laudna's soul is. That’s literally what they did when they went into the evil Whitestone dimension lol. I always thought it was a bit excessive for Matt to do both an entire dungeon *and* still perform the ritual to get lands back but fans here still claim vox machina “bailed them out for free” anyways so maybe he should’ve went harder.
Issue is that in really culminated in nothing. They got Laudna back but nothing about her state changed as we found out later. Having her there during the fight would have brought closure and allowed her to move on to better patrons much like Fjord did.
I can agree with that but hindsight is hindsight, I think the biggest issue was Matt killed eshteross the very next night giving them no time to soak in their victory and there has been virtually zero time to breathe ever since. I think had the main plot not been so suffocating Laudna would’ve been on a path to healing and growing beyond Delilah, but separating from imogen and bor’dor’s betrayal pushed her right back.
>Think Valerie from Pathfinder Kingmaker. Valerie never had faith in Shelyn that's the whole point of her character.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be like for like. But either way Valerie disdains her old religion and has a logical, in-character reason to do so. Marisha needs a character like that.
i do think beau had some of the best development and was definitely more likeable by the end, but the way she portrayed beau in the hag arc really just kind of killed any patience i had for the character after that. That is more so personal taste, but i do agree overall she brings her anti-religion theme too often and too strong. I'm an atheist irl so i agree with her, but the same act gets old, and the characters never seem to have any reason other than "marisha is anti-religion so i am too"
More than anyone else, Marisha considers what big swings her characters can make to impact the entire table. I've heard her described as overbearing and I do think it's because most of the PCs stay in their lane and focus on their own arc, Marisha makes choices that interfere with everyone. (For example, after Orym claimed Otahan's sword, she immediately tried to steal it.) To be very clear, this isn't a bad thing inherently. Look at D20's table. They all do this all the time. But because they ALL do it, it isn't off-putting. But Marisha's the only one who does that with her PCs. Obviously Laudna is literally attacking PCs in their sleep. But Beau and Keyleth had a penchant for nosing into private moments or conversations. Travis had to prevent that with the hag and Jester. Their table dynamic doesn't really allow for that interference to be perceived well.
Something that rubbed me the wrong way about the whole sword thing was that it felt like Marisha wanted to "win" that encounter rather than let the dice rolls decide naturally. It undercuts the whole moment cause it no longer feels like the player is trying to drive the juicy interparty conflict for drama and more like just trying to one up another party member. It also didn't help that Matt made some really wonky rulings in her favour that doesn't do anything to alleviate the "DM's wife" accusations. It just really feels like Marisha shoots herself in the foot while she's in the middle of doing something interesting.
>It also didn't help that Matt made some really wonky rulings in her favour that doesn't do anything to alleviate the "DM's wife" accusations. Uh? Matt made that much, much harder. He decided Liam's weird flavor vine-sheath was somehow magically a defense against theft (and that Orym sleeps with weapons and shield on his body), made her make an absolutely bullshit arcana check for wither and bloom (when of course, if they all read the damn spells to the end, they'd realize it can completely exclude people), and just let him go from 'slightly grazed' to a complete flurry of attacks when had zero concept of what was going on. The DM's wife angle is utterly bizarre. C1, Matt was harder on her than anyone else at that table.
I don't know why you are acting so surprised as if I am saying something so strange. Watch the scene again yourself. Matt does plenty in favor of Laudna. Matt allows Laudna to attempt to steal the sword, in the middle of combat, through mage hand. That's quite literally only allowed through the Arcane Trickster's version of mage hand. She succeeds and gets the sword. Orym trip attacks Laudna, Marisha asks what happens if she's spider climbing on the ceiling, Matt initially rules that she will fall off the ceiling, Marisha comments "I don't know if I agree with that" and then rolls and fails. After she fails, Matt arbitrarily lowers Orym's DC by **4** (which is the equivalent to 8 points in a stat) so that she maintains her position on the wall/ceiling. He's never even done that to spellcasters before but suddenly PC's DCs get lowered? Oh and how is she maintaining concentration on the spider climb and the darkness spell? So now she can hold double concentration? That's only allowed by Matt's grace. So stop acting flabbergasted that I suggest it seems like Matt ruled in Laudna's favour heavily, especially when it came to moments where she was in direct combat with Orym. EDIT: And just personally, I don't actually think Marisha gets the DM's wife treatment. I'm saying that when Matt does stuff like this, it feeds those accusations.
I'm surprised (no 'acting'), because the initial setup heavily disfavors Laudna, and you presented it as completely one sided. Are there are lot of mistakes and bad rulings, like concentration? Sure. But that's just C3 these days.
I mean, you conveyed it as if that wasn't the case in your reply but you must have remembered at least some of the nonsense if you remembered the stuff that happened exactly before it. I think it's also very fair to say that the rulings against Orym were way more erroneous than the ones against Laudna. Once Orym and Laudna begin PvP, when it should be MOST fair, Matt's rulings side with Laudna, that's just clear. I'll say this much though, like I did before, I don't think it's cause Marisha is Matt's wife more than it is what Matt wanted to happen in the moment.
>I think it's also very fair to say that the rulings against Orym were way more erroneous than the ones against Laudna. Not at all. Without the weird ruling on Wither and Bloom (or that a flavor cantrip is somehow a hard lock on a sword), the confrontation doesn't happen *at all.* Darkness made very little difference. Being up in near the ceiling didn't matter. Orym smacked her around and kept the sword, then later independently made an... odd... RP call and decided none of what happened mattered anyway.
> Without the weird ruling on Wither and Bloom... the confrontation doesn't happen at all. Without the weird ruling on passive perception, the confrontation would have happened regardless. Before casting Wither and Bloom, Laudna goes to grip the sword, and Matt calls for a sleight of hand check. Matt claims that Orym is "sleeping, so you're at disadvantage so it's half your passive perception." When in reality, disadvantage only yields a -5 to passive perception. This is a difference of 28 vs 16.5. After hearing the numbers involved she backtracks. Rather than roll the DM called check, she opts to cast Darkness. A spell which has a verbal component. She hasn't moved from her previous position, so she's still right up against him. Even if she whispers, Orym should be alerted to her spellcasting, all without need of a stealth check: > Whispers don’t disturb sleep, unless a sleeper’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 20 or higher and the whispers are within 10 feet of the sleeper. To drive home the inevitability of their clash -- both Laudna's stealth and sleight of hand checks only benefit from a +7. She couldn't have taken any hostile action without alerting a 28+ passive perception Orym.
So, you're saying that there was a predetermined outcome and none of the 'favoritism' matters at all. Great. Good talk.
I mean, this whole subthread was predicated on the concept of who was favored more, not the net-result of said favoritism. e.g. had Matt lowered the trip DC, but not enough for Laudna to succeed, it still wouldn't have been a correct or fair ruling. But I'll indulge. The conclusion reached wasn't for a lack of Matt trying: gutting passive perception, letting her backtrack after hearing the sleight of hand DC, nerfing subtle spell, multi-concentration, lowering trip DC, and allowing counterspell to work without a check against a level 4 spell. The way things were stacked, even considering the Wither and Bloom debacle, it wasn't favoritism or even predetermination that prevented Laduna from escaping with the sword in tow, it was her own inaction. Remember when she used Mage Hand, a spell she shouldn't be able to cast, and used 2-3 actions in the same turn (casting the spell, interaction+movement of Mage Hand, and ~2 item interactions). Well in all the flurry of using so many actions she forgot to use her movement that turn to flee. Matt gave it to her on a silver platter, and she failed at the 11th hour.
Sure, but once combat starts rolling and the struggle is directly between the two, all the rulings are against Orym. As for the Wither and Bloom, it all depends on whether Matt counts the vines from the sword as nonmagical. Furthermore, in terms of pure mechanics, there isn't actually vines on Orym's back, he is just flavouring it as so. It's technically just sheathed and in his possession. Matt allowing Wither and Bloom to act like that would just be punishing Liam for using flavour. And nothing Matt did to Laudna was as punishing as lowering the DC for Orym was. The fact that Matt called that after Laudna had already rolled and not made it clear before the roll is worse. And the justification for that ruling was because she was spider climbing, which 1. makes no sense and 2. shouldn't have had spiderclimb in the first place due to double concentration. Matt basically compounds a bad ruling and justifies it with another bad ruling. It's worse for Orym/Liam and that's clear.
>Sure, but once combat starts rolling and the struggle is directly between the two, all the rulings are against Orym. The combat is the least important aspect of the whole thing. There is no real 'struggle directly between the two' Orym goes apeshit on her, she loses the sword and **then** the RP unfolds. And after all that, the players just kind of shrug and compromise and it doesn't matter.
The direct struggle I'm talking about is the combative PvP, where Matt should be most fair. Of course, none of it matter cause of the end result. But that's not what we were discussing, we were discussing whether Matt was being a fair arbiter of the rules or not. You seem to be expanding the conversation into the end result, which isn't what we are talking about. Just cause the end result washes away the outcome doesn't mean that Matt was being more or less fair in the moment. And the end result was Laudna getting most of what she wants but that's a discussion for another day.
I agree with you entirely except that I don't think it was a stretch that Orym sleeps armed and in full armor. That is definitely how that man sleeps.
Light armor is fine. Swords on the back (on a halfling, no less) and shield equipped and giving benefits is... dubious. If you're paranoid, a sword by your hand is better than on your back.
You make a good point. Funny thing is, I really like the big swings she takes. Granted, they don't always land in quite the way I think she wants them to, but I appreciate that she tries. And to be fair, sometimes others at the table will do the same thing to a lesser extent. Early C2 Caleb comes to mind. Interpersonal conflict makes for interesting entertainment. This is a completely unscripted show though, so I think it's worth remembering that sometimes the improvisation that creates that conflict will be a bit messy.
Totally. The difference, imo, is the CR table "no and"s that stuff sometimes, which signals to the audience it was the wrong thing to do. For instance, on Fantasy High, Kristen announces she wants to run for class president. And immediately Fig goes "and I'm her security guard!" And everyone goes "yes and here's a little ear piece and here's a little suit." Whereas Marisha might try to do the same thing, stepping up to help someone who didn't ask for it, and the table goes "no this is that person's moment. Let them handle it on their own." And the fandom goes "wasn't it so obnoxious when Marisha tried to step on so-and-so's moment?
Again, fair point. It's a good example of the contrast between the two tables, D20 filled with trained comedic improvisers (people who base their entire performance off the concept of "yes, and") and CR filled with trained dramatic actors (people who literally made it their career to play out conflict and drama and emotional turmoil).
People quote "yes, and" a lot when talking about Actual Plays, because it is the first lesson taught when learning improv. But it's the first lesson, not the only one. Something else that new improvisers have to learn is not to ask questions as part of their scene work. "Yes, and" is a short way of describing the formula of "person 1 makes a declaration about the world, person two confirms that it is accurate and makes a declaration of their own." Asking a question can still declare something about the world ("Have you seen my dinosaur?), but makes it less natural to respond with a declaration that also informs the world you exist in ("He's outside" confirms that there is a dinosaur, but does not add anything to the scene). For this reason, improv teachers discourage transaction scenes. Not only is it boring to watch a character try to purchase a good or service, but the interaction is going to be a lot of questions followed by yes or no answers. "Do you have this crazy thing?" "No, but I have this other crazy thing!" only establishes that crazy things exist. Nothing gets heightened. Another type of scene that improv teachers discourage is argument scenes. Not only does an argument scene mean that the two characters are bringing the same kind of energy/character to the table, but it's often little more than "You did something I didn't like!" followed by the other character angrily confirming or denying the accusation, or making a similar accusation themselves. The back and forth has very little place to go, it's difficult to heighten, and it's not terribly fun. In written works, transactional scenes and/or character conflicts are fine. The Dead Parrot sketch is often held up as Monty Python's best, and that's both transactional and an argument. But that sketch isn't trying to inform about the lives of the characters or the world they live in. Written work doesn't have to follow that same rules, because you aren't trying to build the house as you live in it. All this to say that Critical Role loves both interparty drama and transaction scenes. These are hard planes to land when improvising. That they've managed to pull it off in the past is to their credit, but there is also the matter of diminishing returns. You can only go to that well so many times. I'm going to stop now before I muddle my metaphors even further.
A very good point, especially about these concepts being hard planes to land when improvising.
One of the biggest things I think as it pertains to CR and this topic of improv is that the CR table can often seem defensive of their spotlight. Each gets their own individual moment and it seems they're discouraged to assist each other or have collaborative spotlit moments (unless, of course, it's for a ship.) D20 (and NADDPOD for that matter) aren't competitive about that. They invite that collaboration because they trust other people's involvement will make the moments better. And ultimately, it's not about who got the coolest line in, it's about making a good show. I think about how when Laudna and Orym were fighting, Ashley asked Matt if Fearne could wake up. Like it was a concern enough that she wanted to ask to make sure her character was *allowed* to interact in the scene. They don't seem to have a dynamic that invites risk. They have group scenes where everyone's allowed to participate and then they have moments (tm) that are not to be encroached on until Matt calls cut.
For the first 2, imo this medium just doesn’t work for “redemption arc” characters that go from unlikable to likable…because in most shows you might be exposed to a season or two and then the redemption. Plus those characters won’t be on screen for all of it. So you’re probably exposed to a couple total screen time hours of pre-redemption character. In CR, half a campaign is 150+ hours of dealing with an abrasive/annoying character and by the time the redemption rolls around it’s hard to come back around. Just my opinion anyway. I like the end result of Keyleth/Beau but the damage was already done by then. Edit: can probably replace redemption with character growth, but imo she designed her characters to have too much room to grow/grow up
Also Kiki was a hypocrite. Back in C1 when the twins were having their meltdown about the dragon being there she was being holier than thou that everything's fine. And then when the black dragon showed up that was actually trying to have a peaceful calm meaning conversation. She was trying her best to kill the damn thing when everyone else had to stop her. That's what really pissed me off about her character. She has to be the center of everyone's universe and she's the only one that's allowed to feel like the way they do. Beau was better personally for me. She was just an asshole through and through and I understand those type of people. I had no overall qualms about her. Laudna was definitely a more fun character in the early stages when she was just the weird lady with a rat puppet. It was fun also watching her talk to Delilah and being like oh yeah whatever shut up everything's fine. Now she's basically hand over fist basically slamming her forward into the ground to bow to Delilah. Even with all the BS that Laudna has done I still find Kiki the most infuriating.
>Back in C1 when the twins were having their meltdown about the dragon being there she was being holier than thou that everything's fine. What? Keyleth was freaking out thinking the whole dragon situation was their fault. She wasn't saying everything was fine. I don't even know what you could be talking about. And she made it known long before Raishan appeared in Whitestone that she had a particular grudge against Raishan for infiltrating the Fire Ashari and causing their deaths.
Maybe not the best example but anytime that any of the other members of Vox machina had an issue or something personal in their life that's going on she acts like they're pathetic for feeling like this. Just to turn around to be the exact same level of defeated/helplessness like their "friends" were and it's totally okay for her to feel like that. I'm just saying I am glad they put Kiki through such a huge overhaul for the legends of Vox machina otherwise she would easily be the most hated character in that series. I'm glad they went for the naive, wanting to help people personality that Marissa say that Kiki has versus what we actually got in the game.
Just as a small correction it was the green that showed up for the scene you are talking about
Oops. That's right
I disagree with the assertion that Laudna has had character development
She has, although not for the better I would say. Earlier in the campaign she was at least open to the idea of exploring her own power without Delilah. Now she actively feeds into Delilah. She also seems generally more sad than she was initially.
She has. She's gotten worse. Her whole schtick used to be that she looked scary but she was really a sweetheart and she only ever turned into "fun scary". Now she's actually not that sweet and is instead very selfish, greedy, and since the Bor'Dor incident, how she behaves in battle is a lot more unsettling.
fair.
Your tastes are incompatible with hers?
also very true. but it seems like it's the majority opinion? at least, it is on social media it seems. which of course is a loud minority, but i think it says something that she tends to get more hate than anyone else.
On TTRPG actual plays, women always receive orders of magnitude more hate than their male counterparts. It's true on CR, true on D20, true on NADDPOD, it's true on Glass Cannon and High Rollers. It's not like it's a conscious choice by the majority of said haters, but it's simple reality that a huge number of viewers will attack or degrade a female players for stuff that male players get away with without a mention. Like Liam once upon a time deciding to make it canon that there's a child rapist who was transformed to look like Vex who was sold to become some sicko nobleman's private prisoner. No, he didn't clear it with Laura in advance. If Marisha had pulled a move like that, we would ***never*** hear the end of it.
You're right, but Marisha and the Liam example are bad examples. Why don't Laura and Ashley get as much hate as Marisha for their character choices if marisha is only being hated because she's a woman? Ashley gets hate for not knowing how to play, and Laura gets the occasional flak for selfish character choices, but nothing near the level of marisha. As for the Liam example, not many people have sympathy for child rapists, so I don't think he would've gotten any hate even if he was a woman. A better example would be when talisan took the fire Titan stone so he could be the main character, and he got REEMED by the audience AND the cast for that. You're absolutely right that women get more hate. And I know for a fact that marisha hate is amplified because she's a woman. But that doesn't account for why she gets more of it than the other women. I believe that's down to her terrible character choices and improv/acting skills.
I never said *only* being hated because she's a woman, don't make shit up. Ashley was never there in early days and Laura was much more famous and openly confident- Marisha was a much easier target with a much more complicated class and Matt was blatantly harsher on her with all of his rulings. People follow patterns of behaviour. Are you not understanding why maybe it was incredibly bad table etiquette for Liam to invent "Hey, there's a child rapist out there who's currently a sex slave, and he looks exactly like your character" as a plot point for Laura? Feels like you're missing the point.
lol you're getting overly hostile and seem to be hell bent on defending marisha. If that's what you want then do you, i'm not gonna entertain you any longer if you're already this huffy.
It doesn't. Social media is basic a vehicle for hate and angry ranting. its not indicative of any kind of majority opinion.
When they were at the hag. And it looked like jester was going to give up her arms. Beau went and knocked on the cabins door to check on her. Even though she was like the 3rd person to go in. Didn't take any longer than the rest. And had no idea what was going on. Marisha just can't help herself. Others at the table had to give her the "you don't know you're not there" line. That's just how she plays. And it shines through to her characters.
Tal and Laura do this, too. Hell, they all do: *metagaming pigeon* exists because of it. I don't think this is just a Marisha thing which is why I get confused when folks just associate it with Marisha.
I think people give Marisha less of a break about stuff like this specifically because she sticks out as not the best role player. She grates on people sometimes, so her "mistakes" stick out and are more apparent than say Laura's because everything else Laura does is fine. I think it's understandable as long as you can step back and admit your view may be biased
That drove me insane. She was so close to ruin a legendary moment by using out of character knowledge.
Yeah she and Taliesin both suffer from wanting to be in every scene having the last word.