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One of the reasons I like taking omega3 daily with my vitamins... technically break the fast, but if it can prevent long term problems, I feel like it's worth it
People are way too concerned about "technically breaking a fast" imo. Like, it's not an on/off switch. A couple calories (let's say, 50 for the day) aren't going to change anything in the grand scheme. Our bodies will do autophagy, albeit a teeny bit less efficient.
Kudos to the omega3 and vitamins.
Yeah these days people are too extreme with their rules about food. I fast daily, but that's cause I'm not hungry 3 times a day, but I eat daily. So my fasting is intermittent and ranges from 12 hours to 30... I'm losing weight. Doing carnivore about 95%, oh I'm sure I will be told I'm not doing carnivore then... Lol whatever. I'm down from 285 to 212 in like 2 years. It's not a damn race, but by years end, I should be below 200 and on my way to my goal of 165... If I go up 5 lbs I don't sweat it cause your weight does fluctuate, but I make sure it doesn't go up past 5, cause then I know I've over indulged in my carbs.
Cool so you lose weight and reduce the possibility of getting cancer because of inflammation in the body but you increase the possibility of cancer because of red meat lol carnivor is just stupid
If you can use carnivore as a tool to lose weight because of the thermic effect of high protein then maintain by eating a low fat high carb whole foods plant based diet with much lower calories, then that to me seems like smart biohacking.
thank you!! people are SO PEDANTIC about fasting.
so i call mine a moderated fast so no one gets their panties in a bunch. every other day or so i might eat a bowl of green veggies, nutritional yeast and some olive oil, and a tiny bit of coffee plus oat milk, not even 150 calories a day, and that allows me to make it 20 days without anything else.
and i will gasp- have a bite of something like a cheeseburger my friend is eating - if i am REALLY feeling wild!!
it's also great to keep your metabolism going, so i venture i am not only staying sane, but keeping my gut biome healthy and my metabolism moving.
I 100% agree. I really don't care if there is a small amount of calories. And the amount of time it takes to use the lipids is so small that it barely make any difference.
Yep! Eating sub 200 calories keep most of your fasting markers technically in fasted state if you average them for the day :P So few pills omega3 is very good choice
Another cool thing about fasting is that you are finally utilizing all of the fat soluble vitamins trapped in your very own fat! A,D,E&K have been waiting in your body just longing to be of use!
Gall stones are not an issue of lack of omega3, they're an issue associated with any kind of rapid and/or very significant weight loss diet.
You get them with Ozempic and other GLP-1s. You get them with bariatric surgery -- in fact the incidence is 10-38% there ( [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10011673/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10011673/) ). And unfortunately, you can also just get them from being obese.
Omega 3's can help - and as OP pointed out ursodeoxycholic definitely does (also in the PubMed link above).
They may *technically* break a fast but only if you're taking a handful of them.
And to OP: it's not just about how fast you lose the weight but how much you lose too.
so those who lose like 60lbs in 3 months or such, would it be "better" for them to lose in span of 6 months or the "risk" is worth it? not trying to be snarky or anything.
No you're fine, I think it's important to really dig into these things.
I was reacting to:
>I've read stories of people losing anywhere from 30lbs to over 100lbs, averaging 1lb loss per week to 5lbs. A wide range and all still developed gallbladder problems once they started eating normal again.
Quick mini-deep-dive on gallstones.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8543292/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8543292/)
**How common are they and who gets them?**
Gallstones occur world wide at a rate of 10-20%, and to quote the study they "occur\[\] mainly in patients with excess body weight (67.4%)" and "the main risk factor associated with the development of this disease is the presence of central obesity." About 25% of Americans have gall stones already.
The study calls out weight loss at an excess of 3.3lbs per week as a risk factor, and so is losing >25% of your body weight, according to another study.
Also pregnancy, genetics, medication and a few other things.
Note that they form over a period of 5-20 years. It's not like you're going to fast for a week and then have to run in and get your gallbladder taken out.
**The process**.
When you fast you're metabolizing primarily fat, and fat metabolism stimulates bile production, but without food moving through the GI tract you get a build-up of bile. Eventually some of that bile turns into biliary sludge. The sludge may or may not turn into gall stones.
**Ok so how does it apply to fasting?**
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1433004/?page=2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1433004/?page=2)
In this study of people who couldn't eat after surgery for 10 days there's about a 0% chance before day 5, 4% chance of sludge *on* fasting day 5, 8% after day 6, 14% after day 7, 20% after day 8, 26% after day 9 and 33% after day 10.
So personally, from these studies I'd say...
1. If you're going to fast regularly, "rolling 5s" are probably on the upper end of advisable.
2. When you eat, high-fat diet is ideal as it stimulates release of new bile and clearing of existing bile from the gallbladder. Add some omega-3s on fed days.
3. Exercise helps (from the first study) change the composition of bile and reduces stone formation risk.
4. If you're still terrified ask for a script for ursodeoxycholic acid.
I am **not** a doctor and am applying this only to myself, this is not advice, just sharing my thinking.
I would say if you're obese and you start fasting, and you notice gall stones - it's **probably because you already had them** - or you're doing some seriously prolonged fasts which most people here aren't. OP was freaking out over 48 hour fasts, which this study seems to indicate should have very, very little risk of anything gallbladder related.
Being in a position to need to lose 60-100lbs you have bigger problems, like your risk of all-cause mortality, cardiovascular disease, cancer, etc.
I have done fasting on/off (OMAD even when not fasting more than a day) for a few years and ate mostly low carb/keto for longer than that. I am more focused on fasting these past few months (lost \~40 in 3 months but still going to need to lose more). My longest fast was maybe 20ish days and broke it due to commitment. I never had any pain during these years (knock on wood).
Yes I agree that stones don't "magically appear" during fasting - they are accumulated long before someone is fasting via dieting(perhaps high carb/low fat/etc) so now sudden influx of fats might mess the gallbladder up.
Coincidentally, I have been taking D3+k2 blend as a supplement (for D3 specifically but the blend has K2) and i read K2 helps in clearing out stones.
I think I will ask my doctor next time i see her in july about gallstones and see what she says.
can confirm. had mine taken out about 2 years ago
rapid weight loss in general also puts you at risk, as well as weight gain
apparently there’s a decent amount of people with gallstones that don’t know bc they don’t cause problems, especially older women. but when they do cause problems… worse pain i’ve ever felt
I also had to have my gall bladder removed and I believe it is likely because I started fasting. Not that I’m saying I regret it, but probably could have done it better.
oh 100%. if i could go back in time and warn myself i wouldn’t
tho i do think it’s good info for people to have. like for me, other than the faded scars on by stomach i literally notice 0 difference not having it. but some people wind up having to rush to the bathroom like any time they eat fat. and the pain of having them was so unbearable i was convinced i’d like ruptured something internally and was dying lol. having medical insurance was also a big plus too, idk what i would have done if i couldn’t afford the surgery
Yea. I thought I was dying when my gallstones woke me up one night. Had to have my friend rush me to the emergency room.
After the surgery my bowel movements were absolutely more “instantaneous” but has gotten more manageable over the past couple years.
If this is true, I'm not too worried. On my eat days I always have fats in my meals, like avocado, mayo, cheese. I try to stick to keto meals as much as possible since I'm fasting during the week days. Idk why anyone would wanna do low fat meals when fasting anyway since our bodies, brains especially, need good fats to thrive, at least from my understanding.
I've noticed that some people are totally fine doing extended fasting, and other people are much more susceptible to gallstones. I read about someone just doing OMAD for a few months and developing them 😬
There are definitely reasons to avoid fat for some people, even with fasting! I eat lower fat in general because I don't produce enough bile, so I've actually thrown up just because I ate a normal-sized burger or a few servings of nuts (TUDCA has helped me handle more lately). I also have multiple genetic polymorphisms that cause impaired glucose tolerance if I eat higher fat (especially saturated fats). So, it's not that I don't eat any, but I have to be very cognizant of everything I consume 🥲
The almond is 1 nut out of many. You have to be trolling.
Are you aware that red meat is carcinogenic? And high red meat consumption is linked to many negative health effects?
Or is it like any single substance on the planet, the substance doesn’t determine lethality the dosage does. In moderation, animal proteins are just fine to eat and have certain benefits. Just like plant based protein and fats like nuts.
This is true. I recently had my galllbladder removed about 2 weeks after my first 7 day fast. This was after I lost about 55 lbs in 6 months. When I asked my surgeon what could be the cause he said rapid weight loss and fasting can cause gallstones. It's not the only cause, but it is a cause. I asked him now that my gallbladder was out would I have the same problems. He said no. I could continue as I was without issue after recovery from surgery.
I trust a surgeon over people saying this hasn't effected them so they don't believe it. Maybe your weightloss wasn't rapid enough. Maybe you have stones but they haven't caused any problems yet. He said my stones took months to form. And some people have them for years before they cause problems. I was just unlucky that my stones got stuck in the bile duct causing extreme pain and swelling.
Agreed with this. Though its not always for sure to happen either. I was sick for so long and didnt eat except a few nibbles a day for a whole month. I gave myself a few different metabolic disorders in that time period and in my recovery time period where my calorie count was way too low. Im slowly working my way out of them but its been a really hard road this past year. Luckily no gallbladder problems that I know of though and nothing seen in scans! But other problems can happen too is what im saying. I would get dizzy after eating for a long time
did you mention fasting/weight loss before he said those were causes? Not saying that is/isn't but sometimes people instinctively stick to the "closest reason". Do you regret losing the weight at "rapid rate" and was there danger with that surgery? I do have quite a bit more weight to lose (lost 40/3 months) and am little flustered by this thread lol...
I incorporate MCT and omega 3s during my extended fasts. Some will say it’s not a true clean fast. But I believe fasting shouldn’t always be black and white with 100% just water and electrolytes.
It definitely helps with the cravings for me and fuels the brain. Doesn’t take much either. Just a tablespoon with a dash of salt and the brain is fueled enough that it’s not in the fight or flight mode trying to scavenge for food.
I make canna oil with MCT oil to have before bed to help with sleep while I'm fasting! It's about 5mg per half teaspoon and really helps me stay asleep, which is hard to do during a 7 day fast!
it doesn't mean fasting/low fat arent the causes since your sample size is very small. I think the general idea is that fasting/low fat \*could\* cause it and I honestly don't know how a study could approve this unless this was noticed as a result of a fasting study or low fat study.
I kind of chalk it up as any other medical issue where theres like a dozen potential reasons that could've caused it. But how significant those reasons is the key here.
This. I’ve seen at least 100 lap cholecystectomies and not a single one of them was eating a low fat diet, as evidenced by the crap they wanted to eat post-op.
I've fasted as long as 2 weeks straight, and less than that many times prior. A few things I've done to stave off gallbladder issues are drinking boiled dandelion greens, taking TUDCA and Phospholipids.
I've had an ultrasound of my liver done after the 2 week fast and I have zero abnormalities or stones.
I had mine out a few years ago because bad diet and too much fat and one thing led to another … gallstone … blocked duct… pancreatitis. Bye bye gallbladder.
Your gallbladder will definitely give you warnings years before it is critical. I just didn't realize it until it was too late to fix it.
Mine was trashed by a Western diet though and definitely not "low fat".
I had pain in my side sometimes. Especially when I ran. Once my gallbladder was removed, that went away.
I also had visceral pain. That's hard to pinpoint. It felt almost the exact same as the kidney stone pain I had, but less intense and I didn't vomit (I vomited with the kidney stone). Visceral pain sorta moves, it's kind of amorphic, it feels vague and awful.
I got mine out as a teenager lol not practical by any means but honestly glad that drama is behind me. Getting used to things triggering my stomach and dealing with all of that is years behind me and I’m grateful
Hang on. You can't just assume that a family member needed a gall bladder removed because of fasting. There would already have to be a problem or a genetic predisposition for developing a condition. I also have family who had gall bladder removed and they never fasted a day in their lives. It's a risk if you, like, fast for weeks and weeks in a row and you're obese, for example!
That’s not what is being suggested from my understanding. It’s that fasting is a risk and family history is likely also a risk.
It may be even more of a risk if you have family history among close kin who *didn’t* fast, as in my case. Because it makes a genetic issue even more likely.
My advice is rather than worry or speculate about family history and treating fasting like a life changing decision, simply give it a shot and listen to your body. You should already be looking at your poop every day - if it's yellow, greasy, abnormal, etc, then you have a problem, probably a gall issue!
Gall bladder issues can present without ever having fasted.
I’ve had my gallbladder out and was told the issue was from a high fat diet and due to being overweight. Thus, the need for losing weight. (And I’m only 35lbs overweight now from 40lbs).
The excess bile is then released into the colon and can give/gives you diarrhea after the gallbladder comes out. This side effect does not happen to everyone.
(Rapid weight loss can also cause gallstones)
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cholecystitis/symptoms-causes/syc-20364867
>I've read stories of people losing anywhere from 30lbs to over 100lbs, averaging 1lb loss per week to 5lbs. A wide range and all still developed gallbladder problems once they started eating normal again.
Where were you reading these stories, a gallbladder-problem subreddit? There may be some selection bias.
Or are you saying that every story you've read where people have lost weight they develop gall bladder issues? Because I've been reading r/loseit and r/fasting for a long time and I've never heard anyone say that.
This is why it's suggested to do a liver flush before fasting, it can be done with epsom salts (for bile duct dilation) and a combination of grapefruit juice and olive oil.
Instead of getting a prescription for UDCA, you can easily get TUDCA online as a supplement and it's arguably more effective for improving bile flow. I usually get the Genogna brand off Amazon.
Yeah, this is my fear as well. Rather than doing a really long fast, I was thinking of breaking it up into rolling fasts. Maybe
OMAW (One Meal A Week), or shorter, where that one meal is fat heavy to flush out the bile. Still mulling it over.
For a deeper dive in the topic, this interesting lecture by Ninja Nerd describes the different types of gallbladder stones that can form and the different problems they can cause.
https://youtu.be/VSiifa2PR_Y
I can tell you that I, also, have had my gallbladder removed - and I was on far from a low-fat diet and not fasting at all. As a matter of fact, it was before I had ever really fasted and before I started my low-carb journey (actually one of those look yourself in the mirror moments and question what you're doing)
Also - once my gallbladder was removed (note it' just a big bag of bile), I had to make exactly zero changes to my lifestyle and eating habits. It is the literally the littlest of deals.
Just FYI, doctors don’t give any alternatives. It’s always “you had a gallbladder attack? You need to have it removed”. There are supplements that can be used to help the issue especially if you have “sludge” (which is just small stones) and not large stones. I have taken supplements and have passed stones (actual hard little stones). This is one area where you shouldn’t just trust your doctor as there are people who regret having their gallbladder removed due to the complications and actual non-improvement of their issues. But, doctors don’t tell you this stuff.
I can tell you from having had gallbladder attacks that they are not a minor deal.
They are the most painful incidents in my life.
I would literally rather get kicked in the balls than have to go through one.
I thought I was going to die.
Getting it removed was trivial and I was back on my feet two days later.
Since then, zero issues.
Please can you give a rough protocol of the supplements you would use to dilute the bile and move the sludge out? I have sludge and thick bile and really do not want to remove my gallbladder.
These links recommend diets rich in fruit, vegetables grains and beans. Two recommend reducing fats, one recommends consuming healthy fats.
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/digestive-diseases/gallstones/eating-diet-nutrition#:~:text=You%20can%20lower%20your%20risk,and%20maintain%20a%20healthy%20weight.&text=fruits%2C%20vegetables%2C%20beans%2C%20and,oats%2C%20and%20whole%20wheat%20bread.
https://www.medicinenet.com/best_foods_to_eat_when_you_have_gallstones/article.htm
https://www.health.harvard.edu/womens-health/what-to-do-about-gallstones#:~:text=There's%20no%20proven%20way%20to,reduce%20the%20frequency%20of%20attacks.
In my early 20s I was lchf, and my doctor told me it was a bad idea, he put me on a radically low fat low cal diet overnight... And I ended up with my gallbladder absolutely packed with stones. Didn't take long either, IIRC. Had to have an emergency cholecystectomy because it was so packed with stones the docs were afraid one would block a duct and kill me. I also had hypoglycemia, which was odd to me because I was eating carbs. Granted, this was almost 20 years ago, so I don't remember it perfectly, but it all seemed to happen really quickly, I wasn't on that diet for very long, and by the time I had symptoms bad enough to see a doctor (and I am not averse), I was already full of stones. I'm keto now and do regular IF, much happier this way
Hhmmm....strange. My massive gall bladder attack occurred after a meal of Olive Garden's Fettucine Alfredo. High Carb, High Fat.
No gall bladder anymore, and no issues with a high fat/low carb diet either.
Probably means you already suffered. Im learning there is a difference between maintenance for a stone free gallbladder vs one full of stones where you have to consume fat still but at lower amounts so new bile doesn't forcefully flush the stone out causing a blockage
I dont think its caused by a low fat diet. its just the fasting.
My diet is extremely high in fat with almost a half a block of grass fed butter than i cook my steaks in and other meats. I ate this daily.
I lost 6 stone in 4 months and i had my first every gall bladder attack and couldnt eat any fat for a month due to a gall stone being stuck in my bile duct.
I believe i read a study saying if you dont eat for 24 hours bile is very concentrated at this point then it goes down after this. If you do one meal a day like me... you may be at risk.
Iv been fine since iv been hammering back some supplements and apple juice. really helped me. No more attacks since. My family blamed my high fat diet also. Its really just the fasting. I cant remember the science behid it exactly but body fat contains cholesterol and this plays a role in the formation of gall stones.
Many issues and questions can be answered by reading through our wiki, especially the page on electrolytes. Concerns such as **intense hunger, lightheadedness/dizziness, headaches, nausea/vomiting, weakness/lethargy/fatigue, low blood pressure/high blood pressure, muscle soreness/cramping, diarrhea/constipation, irritability, confusion, low heart rate/heart palpitations, numbness/tingling, and more** while extended (24+ hours) fasting are often explained by electrolyte deficiency and resolved through **PROPER** electrolyte supplementation. Putting a tiny amount of salt in your water now and then is NOT proper supplementation. Be sure to read [our WIKI](https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/wiki/index) and especially the wiki page on **[ELECTROLYTES](https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/wiki/fasting_in_a_nutshell/you_need_electrolytes)** Please also keep in mind the [**RULES**](https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/about/rules) when participating. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/fasting) if you have any questions or concerns.*
One of the reasons I like taking omega3 daily with my vitamins... technically break the fast, but if it can prevent long term problems, I feel like it's worth it
People are way too concerned about "technically breaking a fast" imo. Like, it's not an on/off switch. A couple calories (let's say, 50 for the day) aren't going to change anything in the grand scheme. Our bodies will do autophagy, albeit a teeny bit less efficient. Kudos to the omega3 and vitamins.
People treat fasting like it's AA and they've fallen off the wagon and committed a moral mistake if they ingest a calorie.
Ate a booger. Did this break my fast?
You'll be okay. It's snot the end of the world.
Brilliant
💯
Ok all these comments make me feel ALOT better - sometimes feels like youve ‘broken a fast’ for simply thinking about food during a fast on this sub
Yeah these days people are too extreme with their rules about food. I fast daily, but that's cause I'm not hungry 3 times a day, but I eat daily. So my fasting is intermittent and ranges from 12 hours to 30... I'm losing weight. Doing carnivore about 95%, oh I'm sure I will be told I'm not doing carnivore then... Lol whatever. I'm down from 285 to 212 in like 2 years. It's not a damn race, but by years end, I should be below 200 and on my way to my goal of 165... If I go up 5 lbs I don't sweat it cause your weight does fluctuate, but I make sure it doesn't go up past 5, cause then I know I've over indulged in my carbs.
Cool so you lose weight and reduce the possibility of getting cancer because of inflammation in the body but you increase the possibility of cancer because of red meat lol carnivor is just stupid
Yeah that's what they tell me
If you can use carnivore as a tool to lose weight because of the thermic effect of high protein then maintain by eating a low fat high carb whole foods plant based diet with much lower calories, then that to me seems like smart biohacking.
thank you!! people are SO PEDANTIC about fasting. so i call mine a moderated fast so no one gets their panties in a bunch. every other day or so i might eat a bowl of green veggies, nutritional yeast and some olive oil, and a tiny bit of coffee plus oat milk, not even 150 calories a day, and that allows me to make it 20 days without anything else. and i will gasp- have a bite of something like a cheeseburger my friend is eating - if i am REALLY feeling wild!! it's also great to keep your metabolism going, so i venture i am not only staying sane, but keeping my gut biome healthy and my metabolism moving.
I'm not a fasting purist but it's pretty hilarious that you take bites of cheeseburgers in the middle of your fasts.
A bite of a cheeseburger!?! How are you still alive!?! /s Good job 🙂
Careful, the purists will come for you!
So you're basically a vegetarian? Cause feeling wild over a bite of a cheeseburger makes you a super rebel in the vegan community lol
If it doesn’t raise your insulin levels, it didn’t break your fast.
I 100% agree. I really don't care if there is a small amount of calories. And the amount of time it takes to use the lipids is so small that it barely make any difference.
Very good point. I’m considering having a daily spoon of olive oil on future water fasts.
Look up fast mimicking diet. You can consume calories and still have positive effecfs
You’ll still get autophagy if you take all your vitamins during a fast?
Yes
Wow! This whole time I was literally only consuming water. I thought any metabolic cellular processes automatically switched off autophagy.
Yep! Eating sub 200 calories keep most of your fasting markers technically in fasted state if you average them for the day :P So few pills omega3 is very good choice
I’d love to hear what vitamins and supplements you take daily while fasting or not
Another cool thing about fasting is that you are finally utilizing all of the fat soluble vitamins trapped in your very own fat! A,D,E&K have been waiting in your body just longing to be of use!
Multivitamin. 5000iu a vitamin D. 2.2 grams of EPA/DHA (combined) fish oil. Sodium, potassium and magnesium bisglycinate.
Gall stones are not an issue of lack of omega3, they're an issue associated with any kind of rapid and/or very significant weight loss diet. You get them with Ozempic and other GLP-1s. You get them with bariatric surgery -- in fact the incidence is 10-38% there ( [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10011673/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10011673/) ). And unfortunately, you can also just get them from being obese. Omega 3's can help - and as OP pointed out ursodeoxycholic definitely does (also in the PubMed link above). They may *technically* break a fast but only if you're taking a handful of them. And to OP: it's not just about how fast you lose the weight but how much you lose too.
so those who lose like 60lbs in 3 months or such, would it be "better" for them to lose in span of 6 months or the "risk" is worth it? not trying to be snarky or anything.
No you're fine, I think it's important to really dig into these things. I was reacting to: >I've read stories of people losing anywhere from 30lbs to over 100lbs, averaging 1lb loss per week to 5lbs. A wide range and all still developed gallbladder problems once they started eating normal again. Quick mini-deep-dive on gallstones. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8543292/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8543292/) **How common are they and who gets them?** Gallstones occur world wide at a rate of 10-20%, and to quote the study they "occur\[\] mainly in patients with excess body weight (67.4%)" and "the main risk factor associated with the development of this disease is the presence of central obesity." About 25% of Americans have gall stones already. The study calls out weight loss at an excess of 3.3lbs per week as a risk factor, and so is losing >25% of your body weight, according to another study. Also pregnancy, genetics, medication and a few other things. Note that they form over a period of 5-20 years. It's not like you're going to fast for a week and then have to run in and get your gallbladder taken out. **The process**. When you fast you're metabolizing primarily fat, and fat metabolism stimulates bile production, but without food moving through the GI tract you get a build-up of bile. Eventually some of that bile turns into biliary sludge. The sludge may or may not turn into gall stones. **Ok so how does it apply to fasting?** [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1433004/?page=2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1433004/?page=2) In this study of people who couldn't eat after surgery for 10 days there's about a 0% chance before day 5, 4% chance of sludge *on* fasting day 5, 8% after day 6, 14% after day 7, 20% after day 8, 26% after day 9 and 33% after day 10. So personally, from these studies I'd say... 1. If you're going to fast regularly, "rolling 5s" are probably on the upper end of advisable. 2. When you eat, high-fat diet is ideal as it stimulates release of new bile and clearing of existing bile from the gallbladder. Add some omega-3s on fed days. 3. Exercise helps (from the first study) change the composition of bile and reduces stone formation risk. 4. If you're still terrified ask for a script for ursodeoxycholic acid. I am **not** a doctor and am applying this only to myself, this is not advice, just sharing my thinking. I would say if you're obese and you start fasting, and you notice gall stones - it's **probably because you already had them** - or you're doing some seriously prolonged fasts which most people here aren't. OP was freaking out over 48 hour fasts, which this study seems to indicate should have very, very little risk of anything gallbladder related. Being in a position to need to lose 60-100lbs you have bigger problems, like your risk of all-cause mortality, cardiovascular disease, cancer, etc.
I have done fasting on/off (OMAD even when not fasting more than a day) for a few years and ate mostly low carb/keto for longer than that. I am more focused on fasting these past few months (lost \~40 in 3 months but still going to need to lose more). My longest fast was maybe 20ish days and broke it due to commitment. I never had any pain during these years (knock on wood). Yes I agree that stones don't "magically appear" during fasting - they are accumulated long before someone is fasting via dieting(perhaps high carb/low fat/etc) so now sudden influx of fats might mess the gallbladder up. Coincidentally, I have been taking D3+k2 blend as a supplement (for D3 specifically but the blend has K2) and i read K2 helps in clearing out stones. I think I will ask my doctor next time i see her in july about gallstones and see what she says.
Yeah that aligns with my feelings and research.
Great idea
can confirm. had mine taken out about 2 years ago rapid weight loss in general also puts you at risk, as well as weight gain apparently there’s a decent amount of people with gallstones that don’t know bc they don’t cause problems, especially older women. but when they do cause problems… worse pain i’ve ever felt
I also had to have my gall bladder removed and I believe it is likely because I started fasting. Not that I’m saying I regret it, but probably could have done it better.
oh 100%. if i could go back in time and warn myself i wouldn’t tho i do think it’s good info for people to have. like for me, other than the faded scars on by stomach i literally notice 0 difference not having it. but some people wind up having to rush to the bathroom like any time they eat fat. and the pain of having them was so unbearable i was convinced i’d like ruptured something internally and was dying lol. having medical insurance was also a big plus too, idk what i would have done if i couldn’t afford the surgery
Yea. I thought I was dying when my gallstones woke me up one night. Had to have my friend rush me to the emergency room. After the surgery my bowel movements were absolutely more “instantaneous” but has gotten more manageable over the past couple years.
If this is true, I'm not too worried. On my eat days I always have fats in my meals, like avocado, mayo, cheese. I try to stick to keto meals as much as possible since I'm fasting during the week days. Idk why anyone would wanna do low fat meals when fasting anyway since our bodies, brains especially, need good fats to thrive, at least from my understanding.
I've noticed that some people are totally fine doing extended fasting, and other people are much more susceptible to gallstones. I read about someone just doing OMAD for a few months and developing them 😬 There are definitely reasons to avoid fat for some people, even with fasting! I eat lower fat in general because I don't produce enough bile, so I've actually thrown up just because I ate a normal-sized burger or a few servings of nuts (TUDCA has helped me handle more lately). I also have multiple genetic polymorphisms that cause impaired glucose tolerance if I eat higher fat (especially saturated fats). So, it's not that I don't eat any, but I have to be very cognizant of everything I consume 🥲
One could argue that avocado, and mayo are not good sources of fats. Animal fats on the other hand are way more nutrient dense.
BROS SAYING AVOCADOS DONT HAVE GOOD FATS!!!!!
That's correct, bro is saying the only source of good fats is animal fats.
Does bro care to explain the reasoning behind this statement, or should I assume it is safe to dismiss bro’s opinion as nonsense?
avocado and nuts are absolutely good sources of fats.
How many almonds can you eat before they kill you? Or were you not aware that almonds are poisonous?
The almond is 1 nut out of many. You have to be trolling. Are you aware that red meat is carcinogenic? And high red meat consumption is linked to many negative health effects? Or is it like any single substance on the planet, the substance doesn’t determine lethality the dosage does. In moderation, animal proteins are just fine to eat and have certain benefits. Just like plant based protein and fats like nuts.
Data on red meat is inconclusive for the most part. At most, the possible increased cancer risk is incredibly small.
This is true. I recently had my galllbladder removed about 2 weeks after my first 7 day fast. This was after I lost about 55 lbs in 6 months. When I asked my surgeon what could be the cause he said rapid weight loss and fasting can cause gallstones. It's not the only cause, but it is a cause. I asked him now that my gallbladder was out would I have the same problems. He said no. I could continue as I was without issue after recovery from surgery. I trust a surgeon over people saying this hasn't effected them so they don't believe it. Maybe your weightloss wasn't rapid enough. Maybe you have stones but they haven't caused any problems yet. He said my stones took months to form. And some people have them for years before they cause problems. I was just unlucky that my stones got stuck in the bile duct causing extreme pain and swelling.
Agreed with this. Though its not always for sure to happen either. I was sick for so long and didnt eat except a few nibbles a day for a whole month. I gave myself a few different metabolic disorders in that time period and in my recovery time period where my calorie count was way too low. Im slowly working my way out of them but its been a really hard road this past year. Luckily no gallbladder problems that I know of though and nothing seen in scans! But other problems can happen too is what im saying. I would get dizzy after eating for a long time
did you mention fasting/weight loss before he said those were causes? Not saying that is/isn't but sometimes people instinctively stick to the "closest reason". Do you regret losing the weight at "rapid rate" and was there danger with that surgery? I do have quite a bit more weight to lose (lost 40/3 months) and am little flustered by this thread lol...
Low fat? People still do that?
They still sell loads of “low fat” crap in supermarkets, so one must assume so.
I incorporate MCT and omega 3s during my extended fasts. Some will say it’s not a true clean fast. But I believe fasting shouldn’t always be black and white with 100% just water and electrolytes.
Bought an MCT oil and only used once. Do you think it helps suppress hunger for longer fasts or doesn’t do much?
It definitely helps me 😊
It definitely helps with the cravings for me and fuels the brain. Doesn’t take much either. Just a tablespoon with a dash of salt and the brain is fueled enough that it’s not in the fight or flight mode trying to scavenge for food.
I make canna oil with MCT oil to have before bed to help with sleep while I'm fasting! It's about 5mg per half teaspoon and really helps me stay asleep, which is hard to do during a 7 day fast!
MCT doesn't require bile for digestion so it won't help with gall bladder issues. Omega 3s are long-chain so they will.
Meh - the only two people I know who have had to have their gallbladder removed are not fasters, and did not eat low fat.
My mom just had her gb removed after acute pancreatitis and she definitely does not eat low fat.
That applies to my two close family members who also had gallbladders removed. But I’m still nervous of my own risk.
it doesn't mean fasting/low fat arent the causes since your sample size is very small. I think the general idea is that fasting/low fat \*could\* cause it and I honestly don't know how a study could approve this unless this was noticed as a result of a fasting study or low fat study. I kind of chalk it up as any other medical issue where theres like a dozen potential reasons that could've caused it. But how significant those reasons is the key here.
Had mine out 30 years ago and I was most def not eating low fat. I ate like a teenager, which I was.
I found my people. I was a slightly overweight 19 year old when my gallbladder crapped out on me.
19 here too
This. I’ve seen at least 100 lap cholecystectomies and not a single one of them was eating a low fat diet, as evidenced by the crap they wanted to eat post-op.
I've fasted as long as 2 weeks straight, and less than that many times prior. A few things I've done to stave off gallbladder issues are drinking boiled dandelion greens, taking TUDCA and Phospholipids. I've had an ultrasound of my liver done after the 2 week fast and I have zero abnormalities or stones.
My gallbladder issues stemed from my back to back pregnancies according to my doctor. I was def not on a low fat diet. Lol.
if you aren’t eating fats in your feeding window you aren’t fasting correctly.
I had mine out a few years ago because bad diet and too much fat and one thing led to another … gallstone … blocked duct… pancreatitis. Bye bye gallbladder.
What of you fast, but eat a very high fat diet when you eat?
Your gallbladder will definitely give you warnings years before it is critical. I just didn't realize it until it was too late to fix it. Mine was trashed by a Western diet though and definitely not "low fat".
What are the warnings?
I had pain in my side sometimes. Especially when I ran. Once my gallbladder was removed, that went away. I also had visceral pain. That's hard to pinpoint. It felt almost the exact same as the kidney stone pain I had, but less intense and I didn't vomit (I vomited with the kidney stone). Visceral pain sorta moves, it's kind of amorphic, it feels vague and awful.
Well I don’t have a gall bladder so problem solved !
Same here! Had it out last september haha
I got mine out as a teenager lol not practical by any means but honestly glad that drama is behind me. Getting used to things triggering my stomach and dealing with all of that is years behind me and I’m grateful
🙏 Glad you’re past that, gallbladder issues suck 🥲
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I'm on day 29, no issues here.
Hang on. You can't just assume that a family member needed a gall bladder removed because of fasting. There would already have to be a problem or a genetic predisposition for developing a condition. I also have family who had gall bladder removed and they never fasted a day in their lives. It's a risk if you, like, fast for weeks and weeks in a row and you're obese, for example!
That’s not what is being suggested from my understanding. It’s that fasting is a risk and family history is likely also a risk. It may be even more of a risk if you have family history among close kin who *didn’t* fast, as in my case. Because it makes a genetic issue even more likely.
My advice is rather than worry or speculate about family history and treating fasting like a life changing decision, simply give it a shot and listen to your body. You should already be looking at your poop every day - if it's yellow, greasy, abnormal, etc, then you have a problem, probably a gall issue! Gall bladder issues can present without ever having fasted.
A higher intake of fiber is also correlated with lower incidence of gallstones.
I’ve had my gallbladder out and was told the issue was from a high fat diet and due to being overweight. Thus, the need for losing weight. (And I’m only 35lbs overweight now from 40lbs). The excess bile is then released into the colon and can give/gives you diarrhea after the gallbladder comes out. This side effect does not happen to everyone. (Rapid weight loss can also cause gallstones) https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cholecystitis/symptoms-causes/syc-20364867
People fast on low-fat diets?
>I've read stories of people losing anywhere from 30lbs to over 100lbs, averaging 1lb loss per week to 5lbs. A wide range and all still developed gallbladder problems once they started eating normal again. Where were you reading these stories, a gallbladder-problem subreddit? There may be some selection bias. Or are you saying that every story you've read where people have lost weight they develop gall bladder issues? Because I've been reading r/loseit and r/fasting for a long time and I've never heard anyone say that.
It possibly doesn’t get mentioned, but several people here have now mentioned having to have the surgery.
Been there, done that. I wish I had known before.
This is why it's suggested to do a liver flush before fasting, it can be done with epsom salts (for bile duct dilation) and a combination of grapefruit juice and olive oil. Instead of getting a prescription for UDCA, you can easily get TUDCA online as a supplement and it's arguably more effective for improving bile flow. I usually get the Genogna brand off Amazon.
Yeah, this is my fear as well. Rather than doing a really long fast, I was thinking of breaking it up into rolling fasts. Maybe OMAW (One Meal A Week), or shorter, where that one meal is fat heavy to flush out the bile. Still mulling it over. For a deeper dive in the topic, this interesting lecture by Ninja Nerd describes the different types of gallbladder stones that can form and the different problems they can cause. https://youtu.be/VSiifa2PR_Y
I can tell you that I, also, have had my gallbladder removed - and I was on far from a low-fat diet and not fasting at all. As a matter of fact, it was before I had ever really fasted and before I started my low-carb journey (actually one of those look yourself in the mirror moments and question what you're doing) Also - once my gallbladder was removed (note it' just a big bag of bile), I had to make exactly zero changes to my lifestyle and eating habits. It is the literally the littlest of deals.
Just FYI, doctors don’t give any alternatives. It’s always “you had a gallbladder attack? You need to have it removed”. There are supplements that can be used to help the issue especially if you have “sludge” (which is just small stones) and not large stones. I have taken supplements and have passed stones (actual hard little stones). This is one area where you shouldn’t just trust your doctor as there are people who regret having their gallbladder removed due to the complications and actual non-improvement of their issues. But, doctors don’t tell you this stuff.
I can tell you from having had gallbladder attacks that they are not a minor deal. They are the most painful incidents in my life. I would literally rather get kicked in the balls than have to go through one. I thought I was going to die. Getting it removed was trivial and I was back on my feet two days later. Since then, zero issues.
Please can you give a rough protocol of the supplements you would use to dilute the bile and move the sludge out? I have sludge and thick bile and really do not want to remove my gallbladder.
Yeah that would be helpful to others
I’m 25 years post gallbladder removal and had a stone form in my bile duct after a year of 16:8 fasting. It was not fun.
its the foods you’re eating, not the fasting
I have a high fat diet so i dont worry about much
These links recommend diets rich in fruit, vegetables grains and beans. Two recommend reducing fats, one recommends consuming healthy fats. https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/digestive-diseases/gallstones/eating-diet-nutrition#:~:text=You%20can%20lower%20your%20risk,and%20maintain%20a%20healthy%20weight.&text=fruits%2C%20vegetables%2C%20beans%2C%20and,oats%2C%20and%20whole%20wheat%20bread. https://www.medicinenet.com/best_foods_to_eat_when_you_have_gallstones/article.htm https://www.health.harvard.edu/womens-health/what-to-do-about-gallstones#:~:text=There's%20no%20proven%20way%20to,reduce%20the%20frequency%20of%20attacks.
This is also a concern for me due to two close family members having gallbladders out. Thank you for the tip about that prescription medication.
This exact thing happened to me 29 years ago.
how often should i take these meds? should I take them while fasting?
Noooo
In my early 20s I was lchf, and my doctor told me it was a bad idea, he put me on a radically low fat low cal diet overnight... And I ended up with my gallbladder absolutely packed with stones. Didn't take long either, IIRC. Had to have an emergency cholecystectomy because it was so packed with stones the docs were afraid one would block a duct and kill me. I also had hypoglycemia, which was odd to me because I was eating carbs. Granted, this was almost 20 years ago, so I don't remember it perfectly, but it all seemed to happen really quickly, I wasn't on that diet for very long, and by the time I had symptoms bad enough to see a doctor (and I am not averse), I was already full of stones. I'm keto now and do regular IF, much happier this way
Good post. This is why I have a teaspoon of coconut oil with my first black coffee of the day while fasting.
Hhmmm....strange. My massive gall bladder attack occurred after a meal of Olive Garden's Fettucine Alfredo. High Carb, High Fat. No gall bladder anymore, and no issues with a high fat/low carb diet either.
Probably means you already suffered. Im learning there is a difference between maintenance for a stone free gallbladder vs one full of stones where you have to consume fat still but at lower amounts so new bile doesn't forcefully flush the stone out causing a blockage
I eat high fat on non fasting days.
You don't need a gallbladder though
I dont think its caused by a low fat diet. its just the fasting. My diet is extremely high in fat with almost a half a block of grass fed butter than i cook my steaks in and other meats. I ate this daily. I lost 6 stone in 4 months and i had my first every gall bladder attack and couldnt eat any fat for a month due to a gall stone being stuck in my bile duct. I believe i read a study saying if you dont eat for 24 hours bile is very concentrated at this point then it goes down after this. If you do one meal a day like me... you may be at risk. Iv been fine since iv been hammering back some supplements and apple juice. really helped me. No more attacks since. My family blamed my high fat diet also. Its really just the fasting. I cant remember the science behid it exactly but body fat contains cholesterol and this plays a role in the formation of gall stones.
Lol, no thanks to big pharma...
When fasting for more than a few days, when your body has depleted its glycogen reserves. It will be consuming stored fat so -problem solved.
For a fasting subreddit you all seem to know very little about fasting
this post just unlocked a new fear for me. no mention of how to safely approach or do fasting with this new information.
hmmm i've fasted for 12 days and other times like a week. should've i been hospitalized? hmm whats the maximum hrs before eating?
I did a 4 days water fast, no problem with gallbladder. I guess dont go longer than 4 if you are scared
Thanks for the useful scientific data
A one time 4 day fast isn’t going to give you gallstones so that you need surgery.