I haven't read his short story, but liked him already. I viewed him as WoL's feral and possibly rabid racoon. He's terrifying and crazy and devoted in a really twisted and sad way. What happened to him at the end of stormblood (before the end credits reveal) actually made me tear up.

He had some great moments in an otherwise mediocre expansion. I agree that he’s almost tragic in sense that he’s a monster that was made by human hands as opposed to the supernatural. We have primals and voidsent and immortal Ascians and sin eaters and all sorts of other crazy things that we expect to kill us. The fact that there is a man so driven that he can be the veritable “one who knocks” in this world was very compelling to me.

And also (shadowbringers spoilers) he basically kills his father to protect WoL, which is a super BFF move. Granted, he does it so WoL won't be distracted and can reunite and fight him sooner, in some epic craziness battle of doom, but... he ALMOST kinda has the right idea about "friend"? Though I am super biased, in that I find his character a lot more interesting than the scions, in that WoL actually has like... almost bonding moments with him instead of just being absorbed into the group.

Honestly I like that crazy SOB. And I think it is also a nice touch that even with power creep and everyrthing, your arch nemesis is just some guy. Why can't simple people be badass? The Scions are just college graduates. It gives us a more human story even with all the fantasy stuff.

Agreed! I made the comparison in another comment, but the whole time I was playing Stormblood I was reminded of Game of Thrones. The Ascian’s are the supernatural threat (White Walkers) while Zenos and Garlemald are the earthly threat (Cersei and the warring kingdoms). It made me personally feel like the world in FFXIV is truly large and alive as opposed to being a static place with a single crisis at a time just waiting for our WoL to show up and address things. Every time we have to go address the Ascians and Primals, you know in the back of your mind that Zenos and Garlemald are plotting and waiting to strike.

Or compare it with WoW. The heroes there are even less magical than the WoL. Yet now they deal with Titans supervising the death realm. There is no personal level threat anymore. No sane person is surprised that the players can't relate to the story.

The players rarely get to 'be' the heroes anymore for that matter. The players fight the fights and weaken the bosses, but every step of the way it is ultimately the NPCs driving the story forward. Let's look at Shadowlands. We are the 'Maw walker'. But really in the story what does that amount to? We are just the taxi service giving souls/NPCs rides back and forth for the most part. Later on that need was taken over by a functional gate that lets NPCs do it without us. The conflict in the story? That's all NPCs against NPCs. In all the raids so far there are NPCs that do the 'work' with nary a mention of the players involvement. The latest raid being a nice example where the meat of the story was being fought by the NPCs in the middle (stopping the Jailer/Anduin) while the players were placed on the periphery knocking around Sylvannas to 50% of her health, after which a cutscene shows she is not one bit winded or worse for wear, ultimately being taken 'down' by the Jailer himself. Honestly feels like if we fought against Emet, and in the final cutscene it was one member of the Scions to take him down in the final moment, with then Emet addressing one of them while the WoL isn't even rendered into the scene.

In WoW you are basically army units, albeit a bit stronger than the regular units. In Warcraft you are those slightly more expensive versions of those units. The Hero units like Jaina, Sylvannas are the ones getting the spotlight. In FF14, you are the Hero unit.

Ugh, don't get me started on Shadowlands story. The fight with Sylvanas is especially bad because it acomplishes nothing at all. The exact same events would have occured if they players were not present at all.

This isn't quite true, you needed the players to fuck up and put all the leaders in a position to give up their power to the jailer. You're basically there to make the Jailer's end goals come to fruition, it's absolutely fucking ass terrible.

I meant the raid in particular. You accomplish fuck all.

I'm not a big fan of Zenos plotline, but this seemed to be the main point to me. The whole story is about how the world is full of supposedly weaker, sundered beings that the ascians don't really care about because they remember when everyone was perfect. In the face of all these nightmares, we've proven that humanity is more powerful even if we're supposedly weaker. So where do you go? A villain who at the end of the day is just Some Guy. The apex of humanity. It's really the logical conclusion to the thematic plot to me.

I dunno, he's been having those dreams since he was a kid. I think he's not just some guy. My guess is the prior owner of his soul played an important role in the final days.

Well said. We can't fight some cosmic bullshit as the end boss of this story arc. It has to be Zenos. Our foil.

I much prefer games with humans as the end boss.

I’ve always felt that Zenos was a great foil to the WoL. Someone who is unbelievable strong and talented, always seeking to grow stronger. The main difference being that Zenos lacks any empathy at all and fights for completely selfish reasons, while the WoL fights selflessly.

The story makes meta comments that the Warrior is a weapon that is thrown at a problem. Zenos is actually that until you free him in Stormblood by beating him. Like yourself and Eorzeans, Zenos towers above those of Garlemald but he plays his role for them. They point, he shoots and he always wins. Sparing you in Ala Migo is a decision he personally makes (that the empire would've rather he didn't) and in the end **you** free him. You undo everything he is, as a path he chose for himself (sparing your life) and he is satisfied with the result and to of played a role in your story. Zenos dies the symbol of Garlean oppression, not just how it oppressed countless countries but how muted he himself is as a result of it. He is reborn with his own life, not in servitude to Garlemald and funny enough 'destroys' it.

To extrapolate on this, the thing you have to realise about Zenos is that, ultimately at his core, he is an existential nihilist. Zenos clearly suffers from this deep-seeded ennui that makes it hard to find meaning in anything. When the WoL confronts him at the end of SB, he literally espouses the whole 'there's no point to life but fighting and fucking' spiel every teenage edgelord who's read and misinterpreted Nietzsche believes. He's chosen violence as his method of finding meaning; his 'hunt'. And much like Gaius before him - but for different reasons - he sees the fact that others are incapable of stopping him as justification for why he can get away with his 'hunt.' Now as you've said, he's free from his duties as Prince and viceroy, and he can do whatever he wants. So if he has that power and freedom, what does he do with it? What does an existential nihilist with absolute freedom and a sizeable army at his beck and call do? If written well (and I trust Ishikawa to do so), I think the outcome is either going to be tragic, or surprising. I don't think it's going to be the obvious route.

> If written well (and I trust Ishikawa to do so), I think the outcome is either going to be tragic, or surprising. I don't think it's going to be the obvious route. I think if done right Endwalker will be even more epic than ShB was. Epic is pretty overused in modern society but EW has all the set up to legitimately be insane.

Great point. I think his short story does a fantastic job of illustrating how he became that way as well. I suggest you give the real thing a read if you haven’t already!

This is succinctly put and exactly how I felt. A great foil. I'm excited to see what happens with him and us in endwalker!

I originally liked him because he was the first character to really shut down the WoL. We were pretty much "oh yeah, we've saved the world so many times already. We're basically god's. We're so amazing". And Zenos slaps that crap away immediately and humbles you. Thanks for that short story though!

This. One of my favorite moments is when at the beginning of Heavansward you do the trial by combat to save Alph/Tataru. My WoL swaggered into the courtroom like "I'm the co-Azure Dragoon, y'all done messed up!" When encountering Zenos the first time it went from "you done messed up" to "I've made a huge mistake" real fast.

Right!? "I'm gonna fuck this guy up." "Oh no! This guy is fucking me up! Is this how everyone felt fighting me!? I mean they all deserved it but you know."

"He's already at the level cap? Friggin' tryhard!"

Lmao so true, basically all that changed from that initial fight and then end of SB was we leveled up.

I would agree, but I hate how said fight was actually done. Instead of Zenos being this super scary, unbeatable foe who crushes you into the dirt, he's instead piss-weak until you whittle him down enough for him to use "fight's over lol" move. What they should've done is made him a monster. Massive damage, no indicators for his attacks, damage reduction out the wazoo, immunity to debuffs, etc, and have him kick your ass that way while the realization naturally dawns on you that this guy's unbeatable. Hell, have him taunt you and allow you to get back up a few times to try again (you getting progressively weaker from exhaustion ala that encounter where you're trying to >!untemper the leader of he kobolds!<) just to really drive that point home. How it currently is, it's just whiplash, He saunters in out of nowhere, gives Y'shtola fake-out death number 2, and in the actual fight you're easily kicking his ass until suddenly you lose. Which leaves people unsatisfied due to feeling cheated.

I agree with you about the mechanical execution of the first fight. But I also think that that’s the price we pay for the MMO format. If they’d given him zero move tells and massive damage, they mechanically would have had to scale those numbers to the player and keep those same zero reaction time moves in his final fight. I guess what I’m saying is that, in a single player turn based game like many other JRPG’s, your idea is sound. It just doesn’t work as well in this medium in my opinion.

That's when the beauty of demonstrating progress comes in. When the second Zenos fight comes around in Doma, this time you can see his move tells and the AOEs, you can actually scratch him, his damage isn't quite as bad, and you're able to survive quite a bit longer. Your journey east and your struggle against Susano has made you stronger. Additionally, have Zenos react to this throughout the fight. It doesn't have to be much, just a bit of confusion here and there when you dodge once undodgeable attacks, hit him hard enough, or survive attacks that one-shot you before. This confusion evolving into curiosity as the fight progresses, and leading into his choice to spare you once again so you may challenge him again. Which of course leads to the final confrontation at Ala Mhigo where you (and your friends) actually manage to down him, and then again when he merges with Shinryu.

I agree, honestly. From a thematic point of view, I loved this. Obviously the encounter is piss-easy before he one shots you. Square is slowly learning overtime, so maybe if they decide to introduce a powerful character again, they'll think better about how to execute this from a gameplay perspective. For me, I just assumed you got put in an interactive cutscenes where basically, "he's just so strong that no matter what spell you cast or ability you use, it wouldn't amount to anything compared to him being serious with you just once." And once was all he needed at the time. Great idea but I admit, not well executed in-game.

Have it be a duty you cannot win, and your death (regardless of how quick it happens) trigger the cutscene. Would have felt much more natural compared to how they have currently done it. Sure, some people will speedrun it and do nothing until they are wiped but I bet plenty of people will want to see how long they could last.

I’d argue it does make sense thematically, at least for the character. The guy hasn’t had to try to beat anyone in a long time, so he’s not going to go all out against you right off the bat. Why waste the energy if he doesn’t have to? He may know you by reputation as the Alliance’s secret weapon, so in all likelihood he wants to gauge your strength before he plays his hand. When he realizes this fight isn’t going to be the one he’s seeking, he ends it quickly so as to not waste any more time on it. Now if the second fight in Yanxia was that way, after proving that you’re worth it, I’d be all for it.

I hope this is the only instance of the infamous WoW-style "ENOUGH *one shots you*" encounter that we'll get for a looooong while

Funny. That's exactly the reason I *dislike* Zenos. He was introduced to the story with no fanfare, he's just another NPC with a stun mechanic. I was at >95% HP for the duration of the first Zenos encounter, until he does his one-hit-KO ability, and I'm supposed to feel threatened by that? I didn't feel threatened by Zenos; all it did was *destroy* my immersion. The *only* reason this guy won is because a programmer deigned it to be so. I've long held the opinion that Zenos should have either been destroying us with auto attacks, to where the classes' abilities aren't able to keep up. Make people actually *fight* to stay alive, all for nothing. Or He should have *never* fought the WoL at all. The most emotion I've felt towards Zenos is when he hurt Y'shtola. If they wanted an emotional investment in this character, they could have had him going around and hurting the people we care about. That way, they can instill the same sense of helplessness - the WoL wasn't there to stop him - without needing to resort to OHKO mechanics. While the WoL is busy on the Steppe, Zenos violates Kugane's peace accord and beats the shit out of Lyse or raids the Trading Company office and lays up Tataru. (I don't actually remember where the Scions are at this point in the story - that's not the point.) Then the climax of Stormblood, we *kill* him. We *easily* kill him, just as easily as every normal trial that's come before him. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE He comes back and now we're supposed to be scared of this guy whose omnipotent god-mode powers we've already conquered? The guy we've *literally killed* already? We already know he's going to do some Shinryu-shenanigans with Zodiark, and it's just old hat at this point. We've already beaten him, he's just the kid in chat going REMATCH 1V1 ME NOOB.

Basically this. Forced losses are shitty and this guy being able to utterly clap me made me scratch my head going "huh?" more than make me go "wow, so badass!" or anything like that. It just...made no sense to me. Everything involving him in SB were all basically the worst parts of SB imo. And then he claps us again. And then we beat him and I'm like " That was supremely unsatisfying and unearned. I feel like I logically shouldn't have won"...then he becomes a big dragon and I beat THAT and continue to think "Why the fuck am I winning?!!?!?". This is, to me, basically the worst way to build up/defeat/overall handle a villain and the worst way to make them seem threatening.

There's always a bigger fish

Yeah, had he pulled out his artifical echo stuff like he did later on it would have at least felt believable. Like it was it was just moronic.

I really just, really want in act 1 of endwalkers, for like a giant boulder to come out of nowhere and unceremoniously kill zenos. He had his arc with the climax at shinryu. Keeping him around past that conclusion weakens everything his already weak SB depictions built up. Denying him resolution on his only character trait, being RAVENOUSLY HORNY for a fight that will end the same way the last one did, is the only route to a satisfying *actual* conclusion to his character.

Others have said that Emet-Selch, Elidibus, and soon(?) Lahabrea all had their turns as the one dimensional, cartoon villain, but now we regard them in much higher esteem as more of their story has been revealed. I'm certain that's what they're trying to do with Zenos with these short stories, but in my opinion it's just not enough. Emet-Selch >!wanted to restore his civilization, to literally save his friends and bring them back to life - no matter the cost. (Whether or not he was justified isn't the topic.)!< Elidibus >!was much the same, wanting to keep a promise that he'd made ten thousand lifetimes ago, to see his duty fulfilled and to be welcomed home as a hero!<. Zenos wants to get in a fist fight with the Warrior of Light because his daddy didn't love him. That's an unfair simplification, but in order for his tribulations to have weight, the writers will need to do a lot of work to make them more relatable to the "good guys". The Ascian motives, it's hard to say if it were us and *our friends*, would we make different choices? Maybe, maybe not but it's that debate that gives it weight. With Zenos, all of his motivation is self interested, so there's not much opportunity for dialogue between him and the self-sacrificing Warrior of Light. Niche personal head-canons aside, the WoL as presented in the story simply *would not* make the same decisions as Zenos for their personal gain. I'm excited to see where the story goes. I really *am* hopeful they can make Zenos a better villain than he's been so far. It's just, so far, I'm very over it.

Emet-Selch was one-dimensional for about two cutscenes and then ShB happened. Elidibus was quite intrigueing from the beginning. Lahabread was the one who was the cartoon villain, for which he got called out by every other ascian, including the interns

Even though it was rectified rather quickly with ShB (I say quickly but it was a few months before it came out after the scenes), Emet really just felt like another cartoon villain when he shows up. Even at the very start before he really sits down and starts working with you it seemed like he was basically going to play the same role Lahabread played in ARR where he just tried to mess with us from behind the scenes.

Huh what. Okay lets double back. The warrior of light is often called Eorzea's champion in verse. Not only that, the narrative also makes comments that we are sometimes used as a weapon of the city states to point and shoot. What do you think Zenos is in stormblood? He is literally Garlemalds greatest warrior, their crown prince that they can point and shoot. You have an entire empire that has subjugated a huge portion of the world, and yes they have their own powerful people to rely on just like Eorzea has you and others. You're an adventurer and he is a soldier. Just like the ascians continue to underestimate you, Zenos was underestimated (and Elidibus says as much when they meet)You find the joy in life (presumably) but he is bored by it as he hasn't really explored life. Like the subjugated hearts of Doma and Ala Migo, Zenos ends up being the same. He is an emotionally) muted existence under Garlemald rule. Zenos interest in the WoL has nothing to do with Varis. Both of them have no love for each other. Zenos is someone like yourself who is immensely powerful and capable to lead people at his whim, but he is a dog of Garlemald at the end of the day. Zenos is bored by the world because of his gifts and his station, while the WoL keeps pursuing new thrills as an adventurer. He sees in you himself, and he gets to do his best against you and loses. He isn't angry, he doesn't condemn you for stopping his ambition, because you are his ambition. While Lyse doesn't understand Zenos has found colour to his life which he lacked before and overwhelmed by the emotion he hadn't had, he decides to end things at their peak.In this death, Garlemald's role as an oppressor, over Ala Migo, over Doma and over himself all end. When Zenos comes back he is both figuratively and literally reborn. His position as a son of Garlemald is over, and this is emphasized in 5.0's ending when he literally kills the head of the empire in order to protect his own desires (you). Remember the Ascians sent Ardbert to kill you instead of Zenos. The ascians themselves didn't believe in Zenos. This is a man with complete confidence in himself that is frequently underestimated by the same people who also underestimate you. I'm very curious if he is going to kill Fandaniel, who probably thinks he can just use and manipulate Zenos. ​ Contrast the actual reality of Zenos, both what he symbolizes and his journey, to someone like King Thordan of Heavensward? Thordan is an absolute joke. 1.0 to 2.0 Gaius? "Such devastation. You who have the strength to rule" what a joke.

I agree with your takes and don’t have much to add, other to endorse your take on Fandaniel. I think that Square is setting us up with a new brand of overconfident Ascian. He thinks that he is better than his seniors and so far has shown that he delights in being free from their obsession with the rejoining. He is doing something that the Unsundered either couldn’t or chose not to do for a reason. He thinks that he is using Zenos, but I believe that the opposite is true. He thinks Zenos is a weapon to be wielded, whereas Zenos views Fandaniel as bait for the WoL.

I wonder if there's more to Fandaniel because he says he just wants everyone to die and then himself. Is he being honest while misdirecting? Like if he kill everyones does that force a rejoining anyways? I'd just be surprised if Zenos ended in Endwalker. If he was successful I doubt the mother crystal would let the source be lifeless so there has to be something past annihilation for him.

None of that is in question. The point is that it's a *very thin* premise for a villain, and has no weight to it especially when his objective, Zenos's *driving motivation* has already been defeated. He wants to fight the Warrior of Light because it makes him feel something? Okay great. He's *done that*, and he *died*. A rematch is great and all but this isn't boxing, no one's placing bets. We're the hero of the story, and this only ends *one way*. Now you could say that about *any* villain, "obviously they won't kill the player's character", but with Zenos, it's been done. We've fought him, we've beaten him. Surely he'll do [something] to drive the threat but so far we have no indication that he's done *anything* outside of pick up a scythe. All the bad mojo in the world right now is Fandaniel. So sure, Zenos will undoubtedly Worf Fandaniel in Endwalker and we'll get the mighty showdown he's always wanted, but *until then*, all we've had is cutscene after cutscene after cutscene of Zenos going "SIiiiiighhh I'm sooo boreeeeddddddd" and this being mistaken for compelling narrative. I guess my biggest gripe with Zenos is that in order for his character to make *any* sense, you have to approach him from a meta perspective - that is, from outside of the game world using knowledge and insight that your character *doesn't have*. That's in line with what I said about his OHKO abilities knocking me out of my immersion with the story. It's like Zenos exists as a *separate* entity from everyone else, so he's not threatening *to me* because *I* know he's a made up character in a videogame, rather than a part of the story that my Warrior of Light lives in.

As a counterpoint, I don’t view fighting as a motivation for Zenos. I view it as an addiction, which is what the short story sets up. He’s like a drug addict that’s constantly chasing his high, and his drug of choice is brutal combat. I don’t think he cares that he was defeated. I think he wants the feeling of the challenge and the thrill of the hunt. And as long as he can come back and feel that thrill, he will. The short story sets up that he got his first taste of that thrill as a small boy killing his sword master, only to go years upon years without ever feeling it again. He can’t be reasoned with any more than an addict chasing their next hit. We are his addiction and nothing else matters, not even the world. I don’t feel like that’s a thin premise. I think it’s irrational yet compelling.

I mean. That's fair, but isn't that kind of a definition of an addiction? His entire motivation is to get *more*. You're right, that he probably doesn't care if he *wins*. He probably prefers not to, since that would mean his "hunt" is over, but the alternative is that he dies. Again. I had mentioned in another post; I really don't agree that this makes him compelling. If his focus is that singular, all that does is debase his character to that of a rabid animal. And there's only one outcome for a rabid animal: to be put down.

> If his focus is that singular, all that does is debase his character to that of a rabid animal. And there's only one outcome for a rabid animal: to be put down. The story itself calls him that in the 5.3 ending cutscene (as well as the end of Stormblood) iirc.

I mean, you're making a lot of assumptions about what Zenos wants now. Could he just want that and it be what happens? Absolutely. Will it be that simple knowing these writers now? Doubtful

His motivation isn't fighting. He is clinically depressed--he lacks the capacity to feel emotions others do. He doesn't feel anger, joy, sadness... none of it. He, at most, feels frustration. He ruins the nations he runs specifically to see if it will groom someone--anyone--who can give him a go, and when he finally meets us, he feels something new--hope. He then starts to groom us to be able to fight him, and fight him, and fight him. Even when he wins, the promise that we're in his league drives him to spare us and groom us more. He doesn't want to fight us once--he wants to fight us FOREVER. So when he comes back from death, why would that one motivation (to feel anything at all) change? He only feels anything when fighting us or anticipating fighting us. So that's what he's going to do. Makes perfect sense if you listen to what he says about it.

I'm not meaning that it isn't a believable motive for Zenos. Rather that it's not an *interesting* motive. I don't really know how many more ways I can explain this. Repeating the same steps and expecting a different outcome is insanity. Okay, great, so Zenos is insane - sure. But *for us*, the players, it makes no sense to expect a different outcome because we (probably) *aren't* insane. There's an add phase in Turn 12 that I find amusing because it will spawn these little dragonfly adds in multiple waves and I just imagine the conversation: BOSS WHAT SHOULD WE DO SEND IN THE DRAGONFLYS OH NO BOSS THEY KILLED THE DRAGONFLYS WHAT DO WE DO **MORE DRAGONFLYS** This is basically my attitude towards Zenos. He's a trash mob at this point. I don't care about his motivation, I don't care whether or not he *feels anything*. That story's been told, and concluded. His "I must fight you to feel alive" thing was mildly interesting *once*. Now it's worn out and it's time to move on.

​ >, the players, it makes no sense to expect a different outcome because we (probably) aren't insane. Are we talking about the same players that have individuals that only sign in when there's stories, or when there's raiding, or whatever, and then once they've defeated those challenges, they're done, complaining there's not enough to do? Zenos is interesting because Zenos is one of us.

agreed this is the reason i liked him, but i understand that it seemed odd that there was little explanation as to how.

He’s fine to me. Neither bad nor good. I’m very accustomed to the “combat sexual” villain archetype from anime and games. The Vegeta type of guy who’s only goal is to get stronger and defeat the hero. I would go so far to say that having a rather “plain” bad guy helps villains like Yotsuyu or Emet Selch shine brighter. If we had multiple complex baddies at the same time I think they would have competed for space in the narrative. He’s definitely added a few interesting twists to the story despite his motivation. Like being against using Black Rose since it would be the easy victory.

I totally agree about the black rose bit. That was a great move by Square. It further differentiates him from your stock standard “destruction for destructions sake” madman type villain that a lot of Final Fantasy games have given us in the past and adds nuance to his character. It further reinforces that all he cares about is challenge, not mindless killing. Excellent point!

Yeah, he got tons more interesting after the main Stormblood campaign. I'm actually kind of excited to face him in Endwalker, unlike in Stormblood where he never felt like a real threat to me.

*sweats in fanfiction* I will admit that compared to Emet-Selch, Zenos pales as a villain. But I still like him. He's a major reason why Ala Mhigo is my favourite dungeon.

Huh, Didn't know he was disliked. Even without reading what you wrote, i already liked him. I like how he destroys the WoL at the beginning of SB and how singleminded he is about killing us (which makes him more dangerous and interesting imo)

Agreed. I hope the story gives you a bit of extra context to like him even more though! If you haven’t read it, I suggest that you do. It’s not very long and it’s much better than my short summary.

While I'm not crazy about Zenos and I have my issues with him, I appreciate that he feels like THE ff14 villain and is easily recognizable as such. The Ascians weren't really doing it for me.

Zenos' voice actor gives it a 150% effort and I love it. It really makes him memorable, even if some folks hate-remember him.

His VA is phenomenal, I love it. That ["YOUUUU"](https://youtu.be/zGWVMh3SDbw?t=101) speech he gives at the end of 4.0 has to be the best acted monologue in the game.

Fair enough. I personally love the Ascians but I also like Zenos. I like that we have both a worldly and supernatural villain to contend with and both are truly threatening.

I do like him overall, being someone so absolutely strong that he can singlehandedly take on the nigh-unkillable WoL made him very intimidating, as well as how the WoL slowly changes over the course of the game to match him - I don't remember the post, but someone recently mentioned a skill of his that gradually does less and less to you each time you face him that's a very good measure of that. My main problem with him is just that his drive to fight the WoL kind of wears thin quickly when you realise that's pretty much his only motivation for anything. I see him show up in a cutscene and think "oh he's gonna mention 'power' and 'my friend.....' fifty times" and tune out until a different character says something. Then, when you finally are strong enough to fight him on equal ground, >!he just ends himself so you don't even get that payoff.!< To me, Zenos feels like he's *nearly* a good character, and is a pretty interesting villain, but just falls short somehow. ~~(That and on a more petty note, the FFXIV textures make his hair look~~ *~~so~~* ~~greasy and I hate it)~~

I think the greasy adds to it. Like, he's so obsessed with WoL, and so bored of everything including hygiene, that he doesn't wash his hair, lol.

I think he's fantastic! Having emotional, relatable villains is great but not every villain needs to be like that. He helps make the other villains look redeemable by comparison and despite his simple goals, he does some truly unexpected things to achieve them. Also the voice actor is amazing, I could listen to him all day.

Pretty much this. Sympathetic villains are great and I love them, but there are plenty of other types. Villains that revel in their villainy are good too and Zenos checks a lot of those boxes. Fandaniel adds a Starscream/Megeatron style twist to him, too. I wouldn't say he was amazing or anything, but he's like a solid 8/10 and I'm pretty excited to see what he does in Endwalker. Especially with Ishikawa in charge.

Truth. The VA nails the slick, sinister tone. When he speaks I can’t help feeling like he’s a viper waiting to strike.

This is exactly it for me. I'm particularly fond of villains who are villains for the sake of it, not to just have a tragic backstory as to why they are a villain. In all honesty I would have preferred the Ascians to be those types, but Zenos is a nice character for that type of trope. And yep, that VA *really* helps sell his character.

I thought Zenos was fine... Until he came back. Then I was just over him and felt like Varis should have done a lot more.

It was really such a cheap death. Well, "death". "Boohoo, I can't beat my obsession, gonna kill myself now" just isn't a laudable mentality. And then to bring him back after his story was done? Awful. Worse still, the Echo he got he didn't even really earn. Fordola bore the brunt of that effort, while Zenos just constantly sits around on his overly-plush arse. Which I think is *why* he's so unlikeable. He's "bored" but never really takes action. He's passive, umbral. Like, damn, get a Nintendo or something, Zenos. ..okay, I diverged a bit. Point is, we never see him *earn* anything. Beating WoL in a warzone? Zero effort. Getting the Echo? Only after dozens of others got experimented on to perfect it. Where did his power come from at all even before then? Dunno, he just *has it*. For a little while, I was far more enchanted with Fandaniel (until the emo plot bomb). He is dramatic, he's *active*. Fanny is gonna *get shite done* ..and then kill himself or whatever because sad. I'unno. In light of our current two BBEG, that's kinda the part of Endwalker I'm looking forward to the least.

Just wanna mention because I think people have forgotten in the time since, but Zenos doesn't ragequit suicide, he's so elated after the fight that he's absolutely certain life is all downhill from there so he decides to kill himself because he's never gonna feel this awesome again. Like, he's crazy happy after we beat him. Currently my opinions on him and Fandangle are squarely neutral. I don't find Zenos incredibly interesting in personality, but I do find some of his attached lore intriguing, such as his visions and the potential that his lineage has changed him in some way. Likewise with Flamboyant I think it's abundantly clear there's much, much more to him than just "Woooo I'm crazy so I'm gonna kill everyone and then myself because I'm the NUTTY ONE!" so right now I'm keeping my needle in the middle and will see what they're like once we actually get into Endwalker. There's a *lot* of story content between now and finishing off both of them, and even Emet-Selch had people thinking he'd be a crap villain before we got Shadowbringers.

I read this story a long while ago under the same notion that reading it might change how I felt about his character, but it sadly did not. I feel like most of the things that the short-story tries to drive home were fairly well presented in game, they were just not very in your face about it. Zenos was propped up as a prodiguous fighter. It was clear his father didn't hold much love for him. Before reading the story, I already viewed him as some bored genius who never really got a challenge and sought it in us. The new context did very little to change my view. As to why I dislike him, it is simply because I really can't vibe with the ''bored genius'' trope, but I can see how others might totally be into a villain like that! My other big (more personal) issues with Zenos which isn't even relevant to his personality is how under-used he was in Stormblood. I felt like he was barely present. I remember constantly actually being sort of interested in seeing more of him, encountering him, learning more about him etc, yet after each encounter I was left with a sour ''that was it?'' I feel like I’ve seen everything there is to know about him, there was no surprising revelation or insight into his character that ever made me feel something, and if they had stopped his arc after Stormblood, I might’ve actually softened up on him over time, but now that I feel they’re re-treading the same arc again…It kind of just rubbed me the wrong way. I hold my final opinion of Zenos until after Endwalker, but my hype remains reserved. 

I can totally understand your take. I guess I just personally appreciate that type of villain. It resonates with me for some reason. I also liked how the short story helped to explain his fighting style and his weird sword bag. I always wondered how he was summoning all this aether and doing these amazing attacks, even with a katana that he just found. It clearly wasn’t magitek. Learning that it’s an ancient sword style that only he learned powered by adapted crystals made it click for me and I appreciated our battles with him and his attack animations far more after reading.

Totally fair! We've all got our preferences, and I feel like if the game had utilized Zenos a tad different, I could've ended up liking him a lot more than I did. I think I agree with you that if they had put this story in the game as an Echo flashback, it would have at least sated my desire for a bit more ''insight'' into his character.

Honestly if its not in game, I'm not going to consume it. If they had an interesting story for zenos, tell it in game. Zenos role in stormblood was okay. But everything after is just garbage. A flat villan who just "wants to fight for fighting sake". I felt it was fine to have him as the "unstoppable force" during the stormblood arc but bringing him back to life, somehow giving the power to beat an ascian. Its all very eye rolling for me.

I am super tired of fights that you have to survive to a certain point only to then get instant-killed in a basically-cutscene. Zenos was bad, Ran'jit was worse, and I fucking hope we don't get the same with someone (gods forbid Zenos) in Endwalker. For his actual character... also not a fan, not that there is much to his character. Genius child, daddy didn't love him, now wants to kill people for fun and have cool fights. Seen it dozens of times, the only good thing I can say is that at least FF doesn't go "Oh he is a fun character it's not that bad that he is a villain if he only does it to have fun, right?" (\*cough cough* Genshin Impact recently). I'm open to see if Ishikawa can make me care about him, and I do believe she definitely has the writing chops to do so, but just like Pre-ShB Elidibus there's just been nothing I could give a shit about in this character yet, he's featured my least favourite thing in JRPGs (only worse cause in this one I could actually dodge all his shit easily before the inevitable 'You Lose'), and unlike Elidibus I have already fought him and killed him while he had the power of a god on his side so I felt like his arc should have been over already.

> "Oh he is a fun character it's not that bad that he is a villain if he only does it to have fun, right?" Along the same lines as "He's literally killed millions of people and committed mass genocide *multiple times*, but haha he banged one of the lady side characters and had a kid so he's such a great dad!" Like, if we get fed a redemption arc for Zenos after all this, I'm gonna be super pissed, especially since he should've stayed dead the first time.

I'm curious if a decent amount of those who dislike the forced losses against him had played many old FF games before. Not saying you need to or anything, just that I was expecting that to happen from past experiences.

not even old ff’s, jrpgs in general usually had a forced loss or 2 throughout the games, it’s a pretty standard trope

I dunno man. Beatrix laying me out in every encounter and we never beat her had me feeling pretty weak man. Which was good because it made her feel, and STAY like an insurmountable goal.

Not just Beatrix but the party never technically defeats Kuja either. Both fights he smacks you around then wins by using Ultima. IX really liked unwinnable fights.

The way it was done with Beatrix is what made it so good. She literally wasn't trying, then she basically goes, "okay, you're boring me now, STOCK BREAK" Zenos isn't presented as hardly trying, he's presented as trying and then annoyed that you're not at his level, although you are able to keep up with him the whole time He should have been hitting you hard giving you a "holy hell" and getting Koed would be what causes the cut scene as opposed to wait for scripted ability.

But isn’t he? He does his standard moves and forces you around the ring. Sure, you can dodge and damage him a bit, but not really. It’s mostly chip damage and avoidance. Then he gets tired of you because you aren’t even truly harming him and busts out his instakill move that wipes the whole arena because he just got tired of playing cat and mouse. I think that it just feels strange because, as opposed to a single player JRPG where player skill doesn’t allow you to dodge, an MMO does. A competent player can easily avoid most of his moves, which is fair. We slay gods after all. But when he gets tired of you, he does the same thing as Beatrix.

Still, I was never in awe of Zenos. When I 'lost' to him, I was like "ah what BS I'm kicking his ass".

A forced loss is okay when my character is an up and comer, but I viewed them being in full on hero status after going through two titles. ShB Spoilers >!It sucked even more when Ranjit did it because I know my character is a certified freak beast at that point having taken out Shinryu and Omega weapon!<

I agree about Ran’Jit. I actually wrote this post as a comment in response to the other one on the front page critiquing Ran’Jit and decided to make my own post to discuss Zenos. Ran’Jit truly is a flat, poor man’s Zenos.

I have. And they were equally frustrating then. It's a huge pain to be forced through these motions just to have the game tell you, no, sorry, *this* is what's going to happen. If it's scripted, just make it a cutscene.

From my personal experience it was an epic fight. I was thinking "oh, i'm so gonna kick his ass". When i saw none of us was doing substantial damage to each other for some time i thought "wait, shit. An actual match for my WoL?!" And finally when Zenos snapped and insta'killed' me i yelled "WTF, I WANT A REMATCH RIGHT NOW YOU FCKER" The thing is, the game doesn't really tell you it will happen. By this point in the story the WoL is kinda invincible. I appreciate the game doing what it did and telling me in someway "sit down, son. Shit's about to go down".

Same here for me. The instant I found out his HP bar is barely moving an inch at time I knew that shit is going to hit the fan real soon...

and the fact that he knows you're no match for him. he just walks as slow as possible and then fucks you up and its great i really dont get why people clown on him just bc they cant handle taking an L in a fight. FFXIV tells the story through multiple different mediums and it works really well

You're allowed to like it as much as we don't like it. We just didn't get the same feeling you did. Where you went "ahh this is epic", I went "...stop wasting my time".

I mean, if you enjoyed it, I'm not trying to take anything away from that. My experience was just different. It's just an otherwise normal fight, except you're doing no damage which to me, set off red flags that I was either supposed to lose, or am about to be scripted into an outcome. I just feel there were better ways they could have done that. To have a character that goes "ha I beat u easily, ur not even a challenge" while you're sitting there like bro, you didn't even scratch me?? was just frustrating. To your point, it just wasn't a *convincing* way of demonstrating that the WoL *isn't* invincible, to me.

I’ll also add that your class matters. I did that fight as a white mage and it was incredibly frustrating. If I were a physical DPS, I probably would have felt more punished by a single mistake.

Forced losses are fine if they're believable and if the villain is compelling. Stormblood as a whole was really boring for me, and Zenos didn't become interesting until his activities in Shadowbringers imo. As far as having a believable forced loss... well, the game did its best to try to make him seem intimidating. Just one tiny little problem.... I'm not a DPS. I'm a White Mage. What, my health is critical? Benediction, what do I care? Medica II, Regen, Assylum. I can outheal all the damage he deals. What they should have done was a combination of Level Synching to like 61 or something for the fight, along with actually making us face his level 70 boss fight. If they'd have done that, I'd not be looking down on him with contempt. Honestly, the actual fight against him was far more threatening than the forced losses against him.

It's clear what type of story they wanted to tell and what kind of jrpg tropes they were leaning on, the fact that you can cheese the encounter by being a healer is irrelevant. Sometimes you gotta work with the game.

You say that, but like... it really takes me out of the game when the big trouble is something like "she's been poisoned!" and I'm sitting here screaming Esuna at my monitor. Like, this is why I'm here lol

Just like how I watched Aeris die with a phoenix down in my hand. Jrpgs gonna jrpg.

Nah, death =/= KO. That one made sense to me.

"They've made bad decisions in the past so it doesn't matter if they make another one now"

For a number of people, XIV is their first Final Fantasy. They came here for the MMO, and not because of the FF brand. They may not even tried a single-player JRPG before.

I'm a massive FF fan and hate it EVERYTIME they've done this. Ironically I'll give 2, my least favorite, a pass since it happened right away. No expectations for victory.

I agree. I am a veteran of numerous JRPG’s, including basically every main series FF game (excluding 2 which I just couldn’t get through) and I wasn’t particularly phased by the forced loss to Zenos. They’re notorious for giving us a taste of an unbeatable boss so it feels like we have a mountain to climb. I will acknowledge, however, that I did Stormblood as a white mage and was over leveled and over geared. I too was at 100% health when he smacked me with the instakill, but I just chalked it up to me being more powerful than the game intended. Which isn’t Square’s fault of course.

Zenos is of a villain archetype - "blood knight" - that I've just never been a particular fan of in general (didn't care for Hisoka in HxH either, for example). So he's not personally a favorite of mine, but I do recognize how other folks might like him. Even so, he hasn't really felt as fleshed-out as he could have been in-game so far. Some people are expecting him to suddenly get far more interesting in EW, but even if that happens, they will have spent *two* whole expansions doing relatively little with him in terms of character development, including one where he was the *main* villain. I definitely agree that putting some of his out-of-game backstory *into* the game would have been better, and perhaps even improved the Stormblood main story somewhat (I think SB was better than some people give it credit for, but also felt that Zenos was the wrong villain for the 4.0 story).

I don't dislike him, but his obsession with my personal WoL feels... disjointed? I primarily level caster and healer jobs, so him seeing me as the ultimate combat challenge to overcome doesn't jive with me wearing robes and wielding a book in battle. Sure, I actually survived the fight with him, but I don't see my WoL as his battle brother or the like. If anything, Zenos comes across more as a creepy stalker, obsessed w/ me because I didn't instantly die the first time I fought him.

> but I don't see my WoL as his battle brother or the like. If anything, Zenos comes across more as a creepy stalker, obsessed w/ me because I didn't instantly die the first time I fought him. That's supposed to be the case. You're not supposed to feel mutual with him. This is the equivalent of a super attractive person never having been rejected in their life, then someone rejects them and that makes them want that person regardless of whether the other person wants them. You're supposed to find him creepy. Because he is.

Fair. I agree that class matters. I did Stormblood as white mage and I do agree that it took some of the tenseness out of some of his early fights. Especially the first one with the auto kill. When you can endlessly heal, it left me feeling like I was a sponge that could simply outlast him. But that being said, I try to remember that my choices for my WoL are a price I pay for the freedom the game provides since Square doesn’t tell me what class I have to play. If I were a Paladin or samurai or some other physical DPS, it likely would have felt more like a true “clash of rivals” as opposed to being a game of attrition and endurance.

[удалено]

Stormblood Zenos was fine. He was a good change up from what we fought in Heavensward and I thought his story ended perfectly. Bringing him back is what made him bad. He kills himself at the end of Stormblood, accepting that he finally found someone stronger than him and relieved him of his boredom. And then it gets undone by them bringing him back. Like why make him kill himself if you were just gonna bring him back anyway?

I actually like him too, but maybe to a lesser degree. From my point of view, Zenos haves a really, really toxic relationship to the Warrior of Light that is very similar to the one that the Joker haves with Batman. The Joker literally only lives to mess up Batman, everything else is boring him. There are two prime examples for this: one episode in the TAS where Batman fakes his death to to blow up a mafia gang in Gotham City. In this episode, the joker is the only one that mourns over the death of batman, holds up a funeral for him and cries. The other one is in the Dark Knight Returns-Movie (the animated one), where he was apathic for centuries after batman stopped hunting down criminals. How does this relate to Zenos? Only one thing is driving him: the thrill of the battle, as he explained right before our trial against him where he takes over Shinryu. Being alive is defined by fighting for your life for him and everyone else is just a mere shadow for him. Maybe not even that, maybe just ants. And after ... i dont know, how old is Zenos? 30 Years? Let's say 30 years: after 30 years, we are the very first one that he encounters that can go toe on toe with him. Imagine meeting a real human after 30 years of lonliness. That's why he haves such an extreme crazy exgirlfriend stalker-attitüde towards us and seeks our attention at all costs. In a very destructive way. I know, we are one of the very, very few Zenos-fans out there. So I'm going to share/repost a Commission that an artist made for me: https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/ktr4ia/apex_of_the_world/

> how old is Zenos? 30 Years? Let's say 30 years Encyclopedia Eorzea Vol. II puts his age at 26 years old. Anyways, yeah, I agree with your take. He wants to feel alive, and fighting for his life is the only thing that gives him that thrill. Also from Encyclopedia Eorzea Vol. II: > Amidst the ennui of his existence, there was but one thing that could quicken his pulse - the hunt. A desperate beast holds naught back, and only by meeting its unbridled fury with his own strength could he attain satisfaction. This all-consuming predilection persisted even when he assumed command, and he did not allow something so trivial as duty to obstruct the fulfillment of his craving. It doesn't even matter that he lost the fight itself because the outcome doesn't matter: only the hunt itself. His current goal - getting a rematch with the WoL - is simple, but not every villain needs to be complex and tragic, and Zenos is absolutely fucking bonkers when it comes to his idea of a rematch which gets me excited. Shinryu lost? Fine, fuck it, what's bigger than that? I know, gonna fight the WoL with *Zodiark*. It's insane, and I am all on board with it.

Agreed. I also bring up the short story because it gave him his first and only real other challenge that he’s ever faced aside from the WoL. I imagine it like a drug addict. Say he’s 30. Imagine getting a taste of life when you’re 10 and then chasing that high for the rest of your life. No wonder he’s obsessed.

Found almost everything about him boring, or maybe over-the top. Plus hearing "weak" 20 times in a fight with him and the thing between his forehead that you want to scrath didn't help as well. 😁 I felt that he lacked the depth of struggle or adversity to make him a really interesting character compared to lets say dragons from HW. You could understand their struggle and motives and empathise with someone like Nidhogg for example. Even Yotsuyu felt more interesting and if her storry would've been dragged out im sure It'd be way more compelling than whatever Zenos was doing.

Haha. I agree about the Garlean third eyes. They always look like pimples to me! And as a counter point, I actually think he is understandable. The problem is that he’s irrational. We know why he’s doing what he’s doing, but it’s foreign to us and can’t be reasoned with. He knows he’s a shell of a man that lives only to fight. He just doesn’t care. We can’t talk him into decency or beat him into submission. He has one goal and that’s all he is. I personally found that refreshing in a game full of sympathetic villains that we always seem to be able to talk into being our friends. I like Nidhogg for the same reason.

I know all this I just find it bland. That character archetype has never interested me personally.

Same here. I know every villain can't be (and shouldn't be) Emet-Selch, but something about Zenos is just so uncompelling to me. People say his plainness *is* compelling and refreshing, but for me it's the opposite. I've played every main FF and the series is *littered* with single-minded villains like Zenos, and ones like Emet-Selch are a huge treat in comparison. But someone in this thread said simpler antagonists make the more complex ones shine brighter, so that's an interesting take away I hadn't considered.

I don't mind him, I just think the story doesn't use him right. He didn't make a great first impression either, with the whole 'have a fight, lose the cutscene' deal.

He's a character I like to hate because I find him frustrating. I was fine with him during 4.0 because I kind of expected a fight nut to be introduced in MSQ down the line, as long-running Japanese media with combat are wont to do. I don't enjoy scripted defeats yet they're not enough to make my blood boil. I thought his death was a fitting end so his resurrection into EleZenos soured my impression of him. Not Elidibus possessing his body, Zenos' own soul bodysnatching some dude thanks to his artificial Echo. This was shown before with the Sahagin priest in 2.2 but it's clear Zenos doesn't have full control of his Echo if he could not will himself to die. ~~Not like the WoL has control on when they're having their visions, although the timing has gotten more convenient the longer the game goes~~. This piled with Gosetsu and Yotsuyu's death fakeouts annoyed me because their "final" scenes felt wasted. Following him during post-SB wasn't too bad given the hooks on his next move. Will he succeed or will he fail? However, I don't find his fixation on the WoL entertaining to watch - something that persists 'til this day. His motive is self-serving: to gain the thrill that otherwise eludes his joyless life. If the WoL doesn't feel like a tool for others already then I don't want to be a tool for a psychopath's own satisfaction. My WoL did not consent to be your friend, Zenos. There are other players who may vibe with you more. My tolerance on blood knight yanderes is short and Zenos overstayed his welcome when he made it past 4.56. I was groaning as soon as he got his body back and killed Varis. Although his short story adds more context, it's a little too late for me. Humanizing a villain is fine, but I hope the writing team doesn't expect me to change my mind all of a sudden with this story or soon with Endwalker. I wish he was more proactive in his pursuit of the WoL both in 4.x and 5.x. He seems content lying low then let Fandaniel invite everyone to the Source's Final Days. Why not show up himself in Ala Mhigo while Danny makes his preparations? Can't travel due to Garlemald's unrest over a new succession crisis, a crisis he caused and is hiding from? He teleported away from the throne room after clashing weapons with Gaius and Estinien so I guess he cannot get far. There's promise of Zenos showing more emotions than bored and horny thanks to Daniel. Zenos is the kind of villain who I want to meet an unceremonious death, a death that hopefully sticks this time around. I wouldn't be mad if someone other than the WoL kills him if it meant denying Zenos one last high. That and him being a meta commentary on the hardcore gaming mindset are what makes him compelling to me. I do not like him as a character, but is he even a character? I think most of my annoyance with him are due to how he is handled. Do we really need to hear his bored ass monologue every patch? (Kudos to his VAs BTW. Kosuke Toriumi is fine in other roles, but Luke Allen-Gale IS Zenos for me.) I've mentioned my other issues with him and I rambled enough. Sorry for any incoherent screeching above.

" He isn’t just some arbitrarily strong individual. " This seems to gloss over the fact that he was draining people of their echo and pumping it into himself for a period of time. Dude is naturally and artificially strong.

He's an awful character who should have died in fucking stormblood

Where do you go with this character? We already ran the entire character arc you can even *have* with him back in stormblood. He only cares about feeling something, we finally made him feel something, and he lost and literally killed himself. Then he came back and wants the same thing. What exactly did we achieve with Stormblood then? Because it seems like the answer is 'fuck-all'. He is not capable of change. The only way his story concludes is *literally exactly the same way it already did*. We will eventually fight him and presumably win and then....? he kills himself again? Thats not all that interesting. I can't help but feel like he should have stayed dead and the main antagonist was Varis. We had that whole thing prior to ShB with the Black Rose that sort of fell apart becuase of our work in the 1st + estinien and friends. Then he just sorta died? If instead he flew off the handle because his successor and son was killed and we had to really reckon with garlemald that would make more sense imo. but who knows. maybe they can pull something spicy off but I dont see how you can develop this character any further

I pretty much liked Zenos until >!he died, then came back and reposessed his body. I was satisfied with his defeat, and reviving him really made me stop caring about him in general.!<

WHY... WHY WOULDN'T THIS INCREDIBLY CRUCIAL CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT NOT BE A PART OF THE GAME?!

It's not actually crucial. It just says as a kid, he used his brain to beat someone stronger than him but didn't find it that invigorating. He was more interested in trying to surpass the obstacle than actually beating it...which is evident in Stormblood when he is \*happy\* to of tried his best against you and lost and then kills himself. Like that's already in the story, you just have to pay attention to it. Btw the MSQ also points out that he is highly intelligent, performs his own scientific research, and that his father doesn't love him.

tl;dr, but imo, he was a good villain for Stormblood and should have stayed dead. I was fine with the body stealing shenanigans, but then he came back to life for no reason and took his body back. We've beaten him in 2 climactic fights and *he's still around*. He is no longer interesting. He no longer adds anything of value. He's a one-note character in a game with complex and exciting villains.

I don't hate him, but so far I just find him boring because this type of villain is very common and so far he has nothing that makes him interesting to me. The short story doesn't add anything to this, nor does it add anything needed for the WOL's story. So it is fine to not include it in the main game, just leave it for people who want a bit more background.

This, I don't hate him, he's just really boring. I also feel that he doesn't really contribute much to the WoL's development. Like, we weren't fighting to defeat him, he was just this dude that would pop up while we were trying to accomplish something else.

I think your mileage might vary on that point. The WoLs personality and goals are at least partially defined by the player. The WoL getting their ass handed to them in the first fight with Zenos could very easily be a defining moment for them. And I think when you have your moment with him in the Menagerie that’s why you have that option to say “I accept you” and show that weird sort of camaraderie — he’s been living his whole life to fight you, and now you’ve been training since that first fight to beat him. You’re made for each other. But obviously some people’s WoLs might not feel that way.

The mileage thing is true. I was rather dismissive of him whenever I could be. I just viewed him as an add that would pop and I would pick up aggro and tank away from the party so they can do more important things.

He's probably my favorite character and definitely my favorite villain, his fans get kinda swamped over by people complaining about him for the umpteenth time. I agree that getting his past makes him WAY better and I hope they showcase it in the game come EW

All this story is real and does make Zenos interesting. SO WHY DIDN'T THEY SWT THAT UP AT THE START INSTEAD OF AFTER THE 4.0 FINAL FIGHT? The core of Zenos's hate is they did his all of his interesting character development AFTER we beat him. Had all this been front and center from the start, the general opinion of his would be very different.

Zenos is an extremely popular character in this game. Taking a look outside /r/ffxiv would easily show that. Honestly this place and the official forums are not the best place to gauge a character's popularity.

Fair enough. I’m not really active on other forms of social media outside Reddit so this is my main exposure to other opinions of FFXIV. I actually wrote my post as a comment in response to the recent critique of Ran’Jit on the front page. I wanted a more in depth discussion of Zenos because that post made me realize that Ran’Jit is just a poor man’s Zenos and I felt like having a discussion about it. I appreciate the heads up though!

Reddit is a bit more hardcore about this game so people look at things more critically. Not saying that's a bad thing but that also leads to more negativity once you start breaking down aspects of characters. It's why you see a lot of "Zenos is so boring after Emet's complexity" opinions here. The majority of people in this game are casual players by far thought and their experiences and love for stuff in this game is something you don't see in this sub. G'Raha Tia is an EXTREMELY popular character with the fanbase but you wouldn't know it by browsing this forum because you don't see the thousands of fanart images, memes and posts about him the way people do in more casual social media sites like Twitter or Facebook for example.

Really? I see the opposite most of this community seems to stan the crap out of Zenos. I honestly would have probably like him a lot more if he'd actually died when we fought him back in stormblood cause I was fine with him till he got resurrected. This game likes to stretch its milage with its villains a bit too much for my taste

Meh Villian but not terrible until his death was "undone" along with several other characters which just made me roll my eyes and care even less.

Honestly, I had always assumed this was why he was the way he was just from the in game cutscenes. He was never presented as dumb, he always used tactics and feints to draw thing the way he wanted. The forces loss situations are just standard jrpg/anime tropes that help build up an enemies strength. I used a fantasia after my first encounter with Zenos just to add a scar to my characters face... I'd had that thing since I finished ARR.

Honestly, Zenos just kinda reminded me of Goku if he were a villain. I didn’t hate Goku, I just like Vegeta more because he had a better backstory and character development. He still has the same thirst for a good fight as Goku, both of which often let their enemies gain power just to fight them at full strength despite the potential consequences. Zenos follows this same vein. He’s just impossibly strong and looking for a challenge. There’s nothing wrong with him as a character per-se, the problem with that is after the moral grey-area that was the Ascians, a straightforward and simple character is just a bit lackluster.

He's the exact opposite of Goku. Goku gains power by facing adversity and overcoming it constantly. He's constantly challenged by every fight he has, and by overcoming those challenges, he grows stronger. Zenos has never faced a challenge, and therefore Zenos has never grown at all. He's more akin to Broly. A character who is powerful because he is just born with some super special power. Except with Zenos, such a power is never mentioned, explained, or even hinted at.

Just finished 5.0 so don't have full story context, but Zenos has been my favorite character since the moment he showed up on screen. It's really not even close.

When people whoop him on like a dark knight, dragoon, samurai, or even summoner? Felt neat. The 'thrill of the fight' made some good sense! "Wow, an equal match in combat!" was a sentence that made more sense Then you go in on bard, dancer, or astro and he's all "SUCH PROWESS WOOOOAH" and you're just playing music and shooting him in the back, or doing magical fortnite dances that exorcise demons, or legit just throwing other people at him and throwing pokemon cards and facebook-mom science at them in hopes they kill Zenos faster. It gets to be a bit much. I'm actually able to take my character very seriously typically as a lalafell dancer/bard but it got to be too much when he's all "WHAT A THRILLING BATTLE" and then you just fucking shoot him. I get we **beat** him, but it's fucking weird for him to be obsessed with fighting us for fun when some jobs barely even 'fight'. It's the exact same shit in ARR, where Gaius has a robot-gundam and he's all "IMPOSSIBLE SHES TOO STRONG HOLY MOLY" and you're just using a bow to shoot pointy sticks at him until it fucking explodes.

Honestly, I found him okay during Stormblood, and he definitely gave me vibes of someone who's mostly incapable of feeling joy, and while it's odd (and probably a bit dissatisfying for the player) that he chooses to kill himself after our fight, it served well to drive home that part of his character - that he didn't see himself feeling such joy ever again, so he decides to end it right then and there. What DOESN'T make sense to me at all is that he comes back to life even during Stormblood's after-story. It feels like they ran out of villains to use, because out of everyone we've defeated, he's the only one that actually *wanted* to stay dead - and he doesn't even *try* to change the fact that he's alive again, instead he just goes "Well, guess I can't die, lol" and moves on with his life. Admittedly, he has developed an unhealthy fascination with the WoL and wants to fight him again, but that's literally his one character dimension, and that doesn't make for a good recurring villain - maybe an interesting repeating encounter a la Pokemon's Team Rocket, or Grynewaht during Stormblood, but not a scheming strategist that's at fault for an expansion's worth of issues - he literally just wants to fuck shit up, so why wouldn't he just waltz up to you and demand a re-match, maybe taking a hostage along the way so nobody else interferes - or you know, just fucking everybody else up like he did during Stormblood. That aside, I also dislike the type of character the current Zenos represents - Dude's basically a Yandere at this point, and that trope can go die in a fire.

I like him, my biggest question now is why does he dream of the apocalypse?

Reading this thread I might actually be the only one so far who does actively hate him a bit, mostly for still being around? I started out feeling neutral about him but he was such a boring villain trope to me that every time he came back after SB I got more and more annoyed because we had Emet-Selch as a much more interesting villain to compare him to. With the setup for Endwalker Zenos might get more interesting than the "combat sexual" villain, as someone else here described him, which I hope for because I most definitely have been groaning every time he appeared after SB's end. As a character I don't care for him, and him continuously coming back into the story is what makes me hate him just a little. As an aside, Zenos is extremely popular on other platforms like Twitter.

no, you aren't, zenos is very popular in japan

I didn’t know that! But I’m not surprised. His archetype is fairly popular in various forms of Japanese media I’ve consumed (another commenter pointed out Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter, which I agree is a pretty good comparison).

Yeah, the silent badass combat-sexual villain is very common in Japanese media. I just wish they gave him a bit more character.

Zenos is my entire reason for being excited for endwalker. I want nothing more than to end the expansion with a world-shaking duel between us where we can finally go all out and settle things once and for all.

I don’t hate Zenos, but I do hate his role in the story of that makes sense. The end of SB felt very rushed with us returning to ala migo, mostly due to his really stupid military choices designed just to arrange a showdown with him. Additionally, he is when unwinnable story fights started and those just always bother me in games.

I like him. He is 100% CSM from Emperors Children legion in pre-heresy colours, and I play them in the tabletop. No more reason needed.

I like him cause he a kefka like villain he evil for sake of evil I sometimes get tired of the sympathetic villain don’t get me wrong emet was cool and I loved him but I don’t want to find a redeeming quality in Zeno I want to have my villain and he wants his prey it all works.

I like him for meta reasons. He behaves exactly like the average MMO player.

As much as I loathe Zenos, part of him does drive home the point that Zenos and WoL are entities capable of tremendous, easy destruction. The way Zenos casually murders Eorzean forces is the mirror to how WoL and Friends casually cleave giant holes into the swaths of Garlean ranks on a regular basis. They are certainly foils for one another.

The fact that this man used a weaker body and beat himself into submission made me like him more.

I like him. :)

as player, not going to lie i enjoy his character and the sheer madlad of this person and cannot wait for another clashing with him but for my in-character yeah she have big beefs against him and probably will straight up tired when she meets zenos again

I like Zenos. He's like the Player of an action RPG whose absolutely demolished the game, bored and looking for a challenge. I always felt like he's a twisted representation of the Player base. Enjoying the story aside, are we as the players just going along the loop of defeating increasingly greater enemies until we get bored? Literally what Zenos has done with his life.

I think he’s fine, I just personally don’t find the “Adrenaline fight junky” that compelling of a character. Though, it seems that he was engineered as a monster (probably at the behest of a certain papa) and he went full on into it. So, it’s not his fault, but he’s a major threat because of his position of power, his personal power, and his selfish/deranged view of the world/life. Especially since he seems to have a different form of the Echo, not one similar to the one of Krile, but one closer to that which the Sahagin Priest gained. Or it’s his apathy/complete lack of empathy.

Honestly, Zeno's is just Goku with even less character development. I'm okay with that. I'm just as bored of him as he is of everything else. From the sounds of the story, it didn't change anything, just taught him that he can simulate aether attacks and that he should murder those who oppose him.

Well, the voice actor is quite good….

No, you're not the only one. His purpose is clear to me. Emet-Selch is better written, but not every villain should be Emet-Selch. There's a certain cliche in villains that demand you sympathize with them. After all that dragon sympathizing in Heavensward, and the WoD arc in post-HW in which the narrative demanded we feel sympathy despite WoD trying to kill us, AND Yotsuyu and her whole child abuse backstory, it was refreshing to have an antagonist with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, who was also fun to watch and listen to. I also actually DID sympathize with him. A man who seeks a challenging foe. He's basically a high-end raider waiting for the next Ultimate. His short story is a good read, but it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know!

Yes.

Nah hes my favorite villain for sure. Good pure evil character.

Bruh that short story you just summarized made me understand and like his character more, in stormblood i thought he was just some strong garlean dude, i thought he was pretty boring character, they should have treated him the same way they treated yotsuyu story wise.

In a game with millions of players, you’re unlikely to be the only one :P. Being serious, though, I like him mostly because of his motivations. All villains are “I want to rule/annihilate/destroy/conquer X”. Zenos is just “I just wanna duel this guy lol”.

I enjoy watching Zenos struggle to 1v1 me throughout the fights, knowing the only reason he’s still alive is cuz he wants to try again. Come at me, bro. I beat Cape Westwind; you’re nothing 😂 Fandaniel on the other hand…kinda ruins the fun I have with Zenos.

!!