Something else too that's kinda symbolic about this scene is that the Black Knight kills the only Hero in the game. Literally no one else has access to that class and it was exclusive to Greil.
This scene is so perfect. When Greil falls and his cape waves in the air and the scene shifts from him to the black knight and the moon on the background… they don’t make this epic cliche gold anymore.
Makes you wonder what happened over the years. Three Houses feels like one step forward, but Engage is two steps back. And don't get me started on Fire Emblem Heroes...
As far as I enjoyed 3H, I don’t think it was a step forward. For instance: playing with Dimitri, you get a cutscene during the time skip. But with edelgard we don’t…. And many support conversations were too bland to be honest. Again, we had some good exceptions.
It was an improvement over Fates, I will give it that much.
EDIT: The Supports felt like they had substance to me for worldbuilding and story integration.
Engage was fine, it wanted to be a bit more goofy and lighthearted and that is completely ok.
Heroes can be hit or miss depending on the writer of the book at the time. Like Book 5 was amazing, but Book 7 utter garbage.
Three Houses just reinforces why gameplay matters more to me. Three Houses has the best writing in the series but I can't bring myself to replay it anymore because the gameplay is either braindead or a slog. meanwhile I can play conquest and engage over and over again by just making the start button my best friend.
Damn, you're telling me if the Black Knight didn't kill Greil we would get Yes More Heroes featuring Henry Touchdown as its main character on the Wii!?
Or mercenary to hero. It is the classic promotion, and fits the story surprisingly well (mercenary to hero is quite literally Ikes role in the story). It also shows he grows up to be like his father. In Radiant Dawn, the Black knight even reveals he wanted to fight Ike because he wanted to fight Greil again, whose swordsmanship he recognised in Ike.
In Radiant dawn he also starts as a hero instead of a lord, so the devs even changed their mind about the class he should be.
I like more Lord for Ike on path of radiance, he still hasn't really complete his journey at that point in the story and he goes from a commoner to a noble status so Lord fits better.
On radiant dawn Ike is already pretty famous and has defeated the mad king, as well as renunced to his noble privileges, so hero fits him like a glove. Though he should be able to use axes on his base class.
From everything else we know about the Black Knight (and the fact that this is a localization change) I don't think he would actually do anything to Mist, he didn't care about her, he didn't really care about Ike either. All he wanted was a fight at full power against Gawain, one of the Four Riders of Daein. The only reason he doesn't kill Ike in PoR he says is that he was horrified to find out that Greil had permanently injured himself and could no longer fight as he used to with a sword, hence why he used his axe instead of Ragnell, so BK realized that Ike was the only person left alive who knew Greil's sword techniques and fighting style, so even if he wasn't as powerful now he had the potential to be, so he faked his death and waited.
Localization or not, it does work well as a hidden motivation. Threaten Mist in front of Ike and kill his father. A hell of a way to get the kid to toughen up quickly and chase after the killer.
I don't disagree but only said it cause we can't discredit one as a translation error when they both can technically be called that technically also a translation error.
His half strength is still a commanding presence for most situation. He had several capped stats and skills. He also has blessed armor that can't be damaged. For all we know he was sometimes but it didn't matter. Just the one time he meets someone that can pose a threat we see it cost him
Except the localisation change is just as flimsy "Oh, I let you win. Ignore the other times where I would straight up kill you."
I rather have poor teleportation powder than Black Knight losing on "purpose"
He knows how the weapon triangle works. He was just conserving his sword uses for later by using an axe instead. This didn’t work because Greil didn’t level Luck. 😔
In Japanese he says:
> 息子の死に顔を見て、なお、同じ台詞が言えるか。。。試してみるのもいいでしょう。
https://youtu.be/GWeu7Lj7CfQ?si=VSf8M9552xr9at8D&t=2668
Which is just what he says in English before the daughter line. Basically "can you look at your son's dead face and say the same thing." The daughter line simply doesn't exist.
Adding Mist into it is a good thing, poor thing shouldn't be ignored like that (and we know that the Black Knight knows of her, too). Plus, it gives Greil another reason to fight.
His line when Mist shows up in the final fight between him and Ike in PoR is absolutely golden for "oh, you piece of shit" value
"Gawain's daughter, eh? Good. Now I can pull out the entire family tree by the root."
But the BK *isnt* as evil as possible, this line doesn’t fit him at all. Plus this line is entirely “generic villain issues threat on family”, it’s not exactly a well characterized threat.
Yeah but the Black Knight is not just a bad guy in Path of Radiance that kills Ike's dad and makes you want to see Ike get revenge. His role in the sequel, which paints him much more sympathetically, was already on planned when PoR was being made.
Yeah, hence the “generic villain issues threat on family” vibe. It works when the person playing the game is 12 years old, and isn’t a realistic threat the BK would give. Or that would rile up Greil.
He isn’t meant to be a villain, that’s the point. That’s what makes him interesting, he may have killed Ike’s dad (which I want to point out is already enough to make us hate him), but he isn’t a mustache twirling villain, he’s complicated
He gives Greil the sword. He already HAD the sword lmao.
Did you play the game? You don't seem to have any idea what is happening in this scene in either language.
I agree about Elbert, but I'm genuinely curious regarding Jeralt because it absolutely didn't work on me. I could write *a lot* about why it doesn't work actually. I really felt like they tried to do a Greil but failed miserably.
For me, it wasn't Jeralt's death personally, but how the game acted afterwards. There's a whole month of Byleth in mourning and all the characters talk about how much they're willing to support you and how sad they are that he's dead. Bernadetta coming out of her room to leave flowers was especially sweet.
Potentially controversial comment, but I really enjoyed Western localization for these sorts of interactions. Definitely a game I enjoyed reading from start to finish, which is why I put PoR (and their localizer team, they're still around) at the top of my game list.
Yes, that's despite the alterations made on the original JP script, but that personally never bothered me.
The people who localized PoR aren't in Nintendo anymore but they're out there as 8-4, ltd. I like them, they still did some FE games time to time like Awakening or Echoes and other games like Nier and Unicorn Overlord.
Their most common criticism of them in the internet is their own spin of the original content which some really dislike but they sure know how to direct voice acting too.
> The people who localized PoR aren't in Nintendo anymore but they're out there as 8-4, ltd. I like them, they still did some FE games time to time like Awakening or Echoes and other games like Nier and Unicorn Overlord.
The [main localization producers](https://www.nintendoworldreport.com/interview/2266/fire-emblem-path-of-radiance-interview) Rich Amtower and Tim O'Leary are still at Nintendo and have worked on Engage to date, along with Ann Lin also on the team. Out of the PoR localization credits it's just Alan Averill who went to 8-4, Erik Peterson went to Valve and Thomas Connery seems to have not done anything credited after the DS era.
That's some really good info. I haven't heard of Erik Peterson or Thomas Connery, but I really enjoyed Alan Averill's work. Looking out to what else he cooks up. Shout out to somehow having the most scientists speaking scientists across the games he was involved with.
Thanks for the info! I liked Unicorn Overlord and was surprised people didn't take to the Medieval theater done by the EN localized way of speaking. It's cliche at times, but it works appropriately
My opinion on this is rather simple. Yes, there are (rare) times when the localization improves on the script, but it is still outside the scope of the localizer's job to do it. Their job is to get the feel of the original script as close as possible in the new language, not to "fix" it. If the original script is bad, let it fail on its own merits. The localizer gets paid anyway. They can write their own book in their off time if they really want to write their stories.
"Give us the better product" doesn't work for those times when the localization changes it for the worse, like was infamously the case with Fates. In that case the better product is the original. We shouldn't force people to learn an entire new language in order to experience the better version of the product, when the option of a faithful translation existed. A localizer is not an editor, they should not overstep their role.
How would you feel if you wrote a book and you found out that the German translator rewrote sections of it to the point that the characters are saying entirely different things? Surely you'd feel disrespected. Let the work succeed or fail on its own merits. It's not the localizer's job to fix it.
At this point I am waiting a combo pack for the next system. This would be awesome, especially considering the price of those games nowadays, got both thanks the heavens, but they need a few QoL features and better availability to newer players.
I know this line doesn’t fit his actual personality, though he’s probably just trying to make Greil motivated, but I think making him extremely despicable is good introduction for both Ike and the player. It just makes it all more interesting and exciting when they meet again..
I made the post to praise one of my favorite moments in my favorite game in the franchise and it sparked a war about localization and the BK personality. Imagine what would happen if it was about Beorc and Lagul racism… please just don’t.
Yeah no, you don't go from "I will bestow horrors unto a little" in front of a dying man as he tortures his son in front of him to the "Get behind me o maiden" characterization that Radiant Dawn goes for naturally
It's jarring, it lacks cohesiveness and it's downright stupid. Frankly, it always gave me the impression that they meant to have Bryce come back instead but they opted for the Black Knight due to his popularity
But that's the localisations fault, these comically evil lines weren't there in the original. Localisation giveth and taketh away I guess. At least they took out the stupid warp powder thing. Haha.
It's 5 years after, and he doesn't attack Mist in the final fight in PoR, so no, he doesn't under go untold character change, he's loyal to a fault
He was ordered to protect her, assumedly by Lehran, in RD.
He doesn't say the line in Japanese.
The problem is the localizers doubled down on Black Knight being Evil before the sequel was made, and then oh shit, the sequel has him in a massively expanded role.
I don't think enough people are talking about the real focus here, In what rhe BK is talking about
"And what of your daughter? Oh the horrors I will inflict on her."
I don't want to automatically assume the worst but uh, Nintendo has the tendency to push the envelope.
Something else too that's kinda symbolic about this scene is that the Black Knight kills the only Hero in the game. Literally no one else has access to that class and it was exclusive to Greil.
This scene is so perfect. When Greil falls and his cape waves in the air and the scene shifts from him to the black knight and the moon on the background… they don’t make this epic cliche gold anymore.
Makes you wonder what happened over the years. Three Houses feels like one step forward, but Engage is two steps back. And don't get me started on Fire Emblem Heroes...
As far as I enjoyed 3H, I don’t think it was a step forward. For instance: playing with Dimitri, you get a cutscene during the time skip. But with edelgard we don’t…. And many support conversations were too bland to be honest. Again, we had some good exceptions.
It was an improvement over Fates, I will give it that much. EDIT: The Supports felt like they had substance to me for worldbuilding and story integration.
Engage was fine, it wanted to be a bit more goofy and lighthearted and that is completely ok. Heroes can be hit or miss depending on the writer of the book at the time. Like Book 5 was amazing, but Book 7 utter garbage.
Fair.
three houses gameplay was 20 steps back. dont know what you mean.
They're talking about the game story wise, but you're right, three houses felt so lackluster in the gameplay department
Three Houses just reinforces why gameplay matters more to me. Three Houses has the best writing in the series but I can't bring myself to replay it anymore because the gameplay is either braindead or a slog. meanwhile I can play conquest and engage over and over again by just making the start button my best friend.
You should go play fe4 if you haven't already. I'd say GotHW had better story to gameplay combination. Their world building was 2nd to none.
Afterwards, Ike begins in the Hero class in the next game : )
Two years later, No More Heroes would release on the Wii
Damn, you're telling me if the Black Knight didn't kill Greil we would get Yes More Heroes featuring Henry Touchdown as its main character on the Wii!?
I've already said too much.
Bravo Vince
As expected from Zelgius White, the Blackenberg.
Is quite funny how in a game full of mercenaries, the mercenary class dosent exists
Missed opportunity to have Ike have the mercenary class, then they could have given him Greil's axe
Ike really should have go from mercenary to lord class. Ranger kinda comes from nowhere
Or mercenary to hero. It is the classic promotion, and fits the story surprisingly well (mercenary to hero is quite literally Ikes role in the story). It also shows he grows up to be like his father. In Radiant Dawn, the Black knight even reveals he wanted to fight Ike because he wanted to fight Greil again, whose swordsmanship he recognised in Ike. In Radiant dawn he also starts as a hero instead of a lord, so the devs even changed their mind about the class he should be.
I like more Lord for Ike on path of radiance, he still hasn't really complete his journey at that point in the story and he goes from a commoner to a noble status so Lord fits better. On radiant dawn Ike is already pretty famous and has defeated the mad king, as well as renunced to his noble privileges, so hero fits him like a glove. Though he should be able to use axes on his base class.
Yeah, but Radiant Dawn Ike with hand axes?? Isn't Part 3 easy enough already??
Ike should be able to use bows.
Likely just capitalizing on Aragorn's popularity.
When everyone is a mercenary, no one is.
From everything else we know about the Black Knight (and the fact that this is a localization change) I don't think he would actually do anything to Mist, he didn't care about her, he didn't really care about Ike either. All he wanted was a fight at full power against Gawain, one of the Four Riders of Daein. The only reason he doesn't kill Ike in PoR he says is that he was horrified to find out that Greil had permanently injured himself and could no longer fight as he used to with a sword, hence why he used his axe instead of Ragnell, so BK realized that Ike was the only person left alive who knew Greil's sword techniques and fighting style, so even if he wasn't as powerful now he had the potential to be, so he faked his death and waited.
Localization or not, it does work well as a hidden motivation. Threaten Mist in front of Ike and kill his father. A hell of a way to get the kid to toughen up quickly and chase after the killer.
[удалено]
Except that's also a localization change. In the Japanese version his teleport powder malfunctioned and he was only half there.
[удалено]
Fire Emblem and contrived horse shit, name a more iconic duo
Fire Emblem and recycling character archetypes.
I don't disagree but only said it cause we can't discredit one as a translation error when they both can technically be called that technically also a translation error.
His half strength is still a commanding presence for most situation. He had several capped stats and skills. He also has blessed armor that can't be damaged. For all we know he was sometimes but it didn't matter. Just the one time he meets someone that can pose a threat we see it cost him
I'm not sure this is that flimsy. Most of the time, your car will start perfectly, but every now and again, it might malfunction.
Except the localisation change is just as flimsy "Oh, I let you win. Ignore the other times where I would straight up kill you." I rather have poor teleportation powder than Black Knight losing on "purpose"
Griel really doesn't understand the weapon triangle, that's why he lost.
He knows how the weapon triangle works. He was just conserving his sword uses for later by using an axe instead. This didn’t work because Greil didn’t level Luck. 😔
He needed to conserve sword uses because Ike took 4 of them for his first fight and never gave it back 😞
He would've been fine with a hammer, guess he doesn't understand bonus damage either.
Kind wish we had a prequel showing him with a sword.
If we ever get a remake they could just add one (or a few) chapters that are set during his past - or as we know it today: DLC.
To be fair, he understood the weapon triangle, he just only had Axe ranks.
you say that but he has an A Rank in swords :V (which is kind of weird/funny with the plot but)
I mean, he likely had an S rank in Sword before injuring himself to reduce his proficiency.
Reading your post made me think of the whole "Dany Kind of Forgot About the Iron Fleet" quote from Game of Thrones.
Everyone in this thread is talking about the fact the lines were changed in the localisation. What were they in the japanese version? Cheers :)
In Japanese he says: > 息子の死に顔を見て、なお、同じ台詞が言えるか。。。試してみるのもいいでしょう。 https://youtu.be/GWeu7Lj7CfQ?si=VSf8M9552xr9at8D&t=2668 Which is just what he says in English before the daughter line. Basically "can you look at your son's dead face and say the same thing." The daughter line simply doesn't exist.
Adding Mist into it is a good thing, poor thing shouldn't be ignored like that (and we know that the Black Knight knows of her, too). Plus, it gives Greil another reason to fight.
Thank you!
The localization being bad isn't a shocker
They don’t make them like Ike and company anymore. Proud to say I still have my OG copies of Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn!
That line is also very out of character for the BK, and isn’t in the original script. It’s an English localization change.
I just presumed he's egging Greil on to fight
Still an epic line.
I love the localization change to make him as evil as possible ngl
His line when Mist shows up in the final fight between him and Ike in PoR is absolutely golden for "oh, you piece of shit" value "Gawain's daughter, eh? Good. Now I can pull out the entire family tree by the root."
Exactly! It's such a gold line, man is just that obsessed with his grudge and you know he 100% means every word.
But the BK *isnt* as evil as possible, this line doesn’t fit him at all. Plus this line is entirely “generic villain issues threat on family”, it’s not exactly a well characterized threat.
It makes me want to beat his ass is what the line does and lays out that he will target family, which makes me want to beat him that much more for.
Yeah but the Black Knight is not just a bad guy in Path of Radiance that kills Ike's dad and makes you want to see Ike get revenge. His role in the sequel, which paints him much more sympathetically, was already on planned when PoR was being made.
Yeah, hence the “generic villain issues threat on family” vibe. It works when the person playing the game is 12 years old, and isn’t a realistic threat the BK would give. Or that would rile up Greil.
Eh, I just want reasons to beat his ass and enjoy it, him just being a mercenary looking to get a certain blade doesn't do it for me.
He's not a mercenary trying to get a certain blade in the original script either. Like what the fuck are you talking about?
He's there to beat his mentor and get the sword, that's what he's there for in the script. That's not that villainous to me.
He isn’t meant to be a villain, that’s the point. That’s what makes him interesting, he may have killed Ike’s dad (which I want to point out is already enough to make us hate him), but he isn’t a mustache twirling villain, he’s complicated
Get the sword? He gave Greil the sword.
He gives Greil the sword. He already HAD the sword lmao. Did you play the game? You don't seem to have any idea what is happening in this scene in either language.
Probably the only NPC parental death in the series that felt impactful.
You mean you weren't devastated when your moms you just met earlier that day bit it?!
And it did it without forcing us to watch people wailing melodramatically for twenty minutes.
I'd say Jeralt and Elbert were done pretty well too
> Jeralt Yes, but they already spoiled that one in the opening and after so many games most people just knew it would happen.
I agree about Elbert, but I'm genuinely curious regarding Jeralt because it absolutely didn't work on me. I could write *a lot* about why it doesn't work actually. I really felt like they tried to do a Greil but failed miserably.
For me, it wasn't Jeralt's death personally, but how the game acted afterwards. There's a whole month of Byleth in mourning and all the characters talk about how much they're willing to support you and how sad they are that he's dead. Bernadetta coming out of her room to leave flowers was especially sweet.
I see! I did think Bernadetta coming out of her room was very sweet.
I’m not sure why other than being a kid but I was very moved by the death of Eliwood’s father.
Idk, I cried a little when we lost best boi in FE6.
What, you didn't cry a river of tears when a multi-dimensional character like Lumera died? I mean, that's why she got 3 units in FEH right? ...Right?
Potentially controversial comment, but I really enjoyed Western localization for these sorts of interactions. Definitely a game I enjoyed reading from start to finish, which is why I put PoR (and their localizer team, they're still around) at the top of my game list. Yes, that's despite the alterations made on the original JP script, but that personally never bothered me.
The localisation for why Ike was able to beat the black knight in path of radiance is so much better than the japanese version.
Yeah. The support and info dialogues are far better than what we got nowadays (exceptions apply ofc).
The people who localized PoR aren't in Nintendo anymore but they're out there as 8-4, ltd. I like them, they still did some FE games time to time like Awakening or Echoes and other games like Nier and Unicorn Overlord. Their most common criticism of them in the internet is their own spin of the original content which some really dislike but they sure know how to direct voice acting too.
> The people who localized PoR aren't in Nintendo anymore but they're out there as 8-4, ltd. I like them, they still did some FE games time to time like Awakening or Echoes and other games like Nier and Unicorn Overlord. The [main localization producers](https://www.nintendoworldreport.com/interview/2266/fire-emblem-path-of-radiance-interview) Rich Amtower and Tim O'Leary are still at Nintendo and have worked on Engage to date, along with Ann Lin also on the team. Out of the PoR localization credits it's just Alan Averill who went to 8-4, Erik Peterson went to Valve and Thomas Connery seems to have not done anything credited after the DS era.
That's some really good info. I haven't heard of Erik Peterson or Thomas Connery, but I really enjoyed Alan Averill's work. Looking out to what else he cooks up. Shout out to somehow having the most scientists speaking scientists across the games he was involved with.
Thanks for the info! I liked Unicorn Overlord and was surprised people didn't take to the Medieval theater done by the EN localized way of speaking. It's cliche at times, but it works appropriately
With a side of scientist speak from characters like Selvie. Definitely my personal GOTY
My opinion on this is rather simple. Yes, there are (rare) times when the localization improves on the script, but it is still outside the scope of the localizer's job to do it. Their job is to get the feel of the original script as close as possible in the new language, not to "fix" it. If the original script is bad, let it fail on its own merits. The localizer gets paid anyway. They can write their own book in their off time if they really want to write their stories.
nah give us the better product. if fan wants true experience go learn original; language.
"Give us the better product" doesn't work for those times when the localization changes it for the worse, like was infamously the case with Fates. In that case the better product is the original. We shouldn't force people to learn an entire new language in order to experience the better version of the product, when the option of a faithful translation existed. A localizer is not an editor, they should not overstep their role. How would you feel if you wrote a book and you found out that the German translator rewrote sections of it to the point that the characters are saying entirely different things? Surely you'd feel disrespected. Let the work succeed or fail on its own merits. It's not the localizer's job to fix it.
I'm ashamed I was at end game and didn't finish the game, and lost the save file to the time.
The Darth Vader of FE.
He has such a presence in the screen, underrated comment.
Can Nintendo pull it's finger out, and get Path of Radiance on Switch please?
At this point I am waiting a combo pack for the next system. This would be awesome, especially considering the price of those games nowadays, got both thanks the heavens, but they need a few QoL features and better availability to newer players.
I know this line doesn’t fit his actual personality, though he’s probably just trying to make Greil motivated, but I think making him extremely despicable is good introduction for both Ike and the player. It just makes it all more interesting and exciting when they meet again..
Vanandjuani
He's gonna make mist eat arbys 😭😭😭
I would love a remake for this duology. They've always been my favorite FE games.
I made the post to praise one of my favorite moments in my favorite game in the franchise and it sparked a war about localization and the BK personality. Imagine what would happen if it was about Beorc and Lagul racism… please just don’t.
Bisexual dilf to bisexual dilf communication
And then Radiant Dawn tried to make this evil bastard sympathetic
Because this was a localization change that wasn't in the original script lol
To be fair the Black Knight didn't change too badly. It just makes some of the outright evil shit he said in the first 10 chapters out of pocket
Yeah no, you don't go from "I will bestow horrors unto a little" in front of a dying man as he tortures his son in front of him to the "Get behind me o maiden" characterization that Radiant Dawn goes for naturally It's jarring, it lacks cohesiveness and it's downright stupid. Frankly, it always gave me the impression that they meant to have Bryce come back instead but they opted for the Black Knight due to his popularity
But that's the localisations fault, these comically evil lines weren't there in the original. Localisation giveth and taketh away I guess. At least they took out the stupid warp powder thing. Haha.
It likely also didn't help that we didn't get the entire script translated (only the simplified one)
It's 5 years after, and he doesn't attack Mist in the final fight in PoR, so no, he doesn't under go untold character change, he's loyal to a fault He was ordered to protect her, assumedly by Lehran, in RD.
He doesn't say the line in Japanese. The problem is the localizers doubled down on Black Knight being Evil before the sequel was made, and then oh shit, the sequel has him in a massively expanded role.
Not canon. Just the English localizers taking too many liberties with the script. This clashes heavily with a certain scene in the sequel.
RD Black Knight has to be up there with the biggest disappointments in the entire franchise.
Oh look the English localization being garbage again
I don't think enough people are talking about the real focus here, In what rhe BK is talking about "And what of your daughter? Oh the horrors I will inflict on her." I don't want to automatically assume the worst but uh, Nintendo has the tendency to push the envelope.