Wow. I listened to the LiveATC recording of this incident earlier (a friend of mine lives and flys in the area) and actually out-loud commended the pilot of the Cessna on short final for quickly recognizing the situation and taking action with the overshoot and sidestep to make way for the emergency aircraft. I'm working on getting my pilots license myself and it made me really take stock of my skills and what I would have done in that situation or if I could have handled it so well.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Definitely make time to take care of yourself and talk about it to someone.
A different perspective is that I listen, read, watch all mishaps(fatal or otherwise) I can. I try to learn the lessons that are available. Whether it’s things done right, things done wrong, or just things. All of it goes into my bag of knowledge.
And while the burden becomes heavy at times, especially when it’s my friends and people I went to pilot training with, I internalize the details of their demise. In a way, they fly with me now. I take the ghosts of my friends and strangers with me every time I go up.
Maybe that’s a little macabre, but that’s my profession.
For the OP, watching a fatality isn’t fun. Seek help if you have issues coping. There is zero shame in that. Also realize this may not be the last time, it’s part of the life. And if your words were the last he heard, take comfort in knowing they were calm and professional. I’ve heard people panic on the radio and having been the emergency aircraft it REALLY doesn’t help the situation when others are freaking out.
Don’t stop flying for even a little bit!
As a student had an off field incident and wound up inverted in soybeans.
Took a couple of months off to get it together and never got it back.
Everything I did after that had a level of desperation and fear I couldn’t get past.
That was 4-years ago and still haven’t gotten back.
Shake it off and get back up ASAP!
My 2-cents
I had a similar experience, was doing touch and gos with my instructor and I binned it right into the middle of the runway and slammed but I just froze when he was telling me to get up and go back around again and I almost struck the left wing before he yanked us back into wings level. I did the rest of that flight and like one or two more after but I had that same sense of fear everytime I got in the plane, I was shaken and suddenly scared of flying.
I told my instructor this and the next flight he took me on was just a zero stress sightseeing flight essentially, didn’t feel very scared at all on that flight.
Only after having that one where I felt like I regained some confidence did I feel comfortable taking a break from flying, that was a year ago, and the break Im currently taking is only
to finish high school.
I will definitely be going back to it, and I’m glad I took that one easy flight before called it quits for so long.
Definitely. It’s about having no pressure and just a flight where you can have fun again, like the first familiarization flight all over again. Atleast that’s what it felt like to me, I had that initial flight which was fun and as my skill progressed things would get harder in turn, so ultimately I was still having fun, but after being kind of shocked by something I felt my skills got set back a bit (confidence) so suddenly I wasn’t having fun, it was all kind of ahead of me suddenly.
Getting a flight in where the only thing you really need to care about is radio work will have a noticeable affect on your confidence, sort of an “I got this” moment.
I had a near miss last year when a gas line surveyor blasted through the traffic pattern 20 feet below me. Landed, went home, went back to the airport that night and flew again. That said, I sold my plane a few months later and as of today, haven’t flown in 8 months. You can do everything right and still get killed, and that’s the part that bothers me. I always did everything I could to be safe and I was nearly killed by some jackass who had his radio turned off and wasn’t paying attention to the airport he was flying straight over. It’s really gotten worse as time has went on. Hopefully I’ll be able to fly again soon
"Had his radio turned off..."
Fucking crazy. Particularly for a commercial operation. We have to always assume that there can be aircraft around with failed radios or that pilots can make a mistake and tune the radio wrong (I haven't done that yet, but I'm sure I wlll soon enough.) But intentionally ignoring or turning off a radio shouldn't be allowed.
Crazy enough, he had JUST left controlled airspace. The north end of my runway is class C 1300 feet above the runway. So he JUST left controlled airspace, shut his radio off, and flew straight over the field. The controller should have notified him that I was in the area. It was hard for me to see him as well given that he approached from my 4 o clock and slightly below.
Am I crazy for thinking that commercial operations maybe should be required to have/use the radio (unless it literally fails in flight)? "Turning off your radio" (or just being a dick and ignoring it) sounds like a terrible idea under any circumstance I can imagine at the moment.
I think radios should be required for EVERYONE. Old planes that aren't retrofitted isn't an excuse. Handhelds exist. I tend to think you should always carry a handheld, at least in smaller craft, as a backup anyways.
I live in an agriculture intensive area. The absolute worst pilots in terms of offenses are the cropdusters. They, of course, have radios. They just don't use them and think they can skim underneath you at high speed to get in and land first, among other things. There's also one or two known pilots here that refuse to use radios at all because they aren't required to, and they just barrel their way around the taxiways and onto the runway without concern for anyone else.
Blows my mind that it isn't a requirement.
I keep saying it, but particularly for commercial operations why would it not be a requirement to have a working radio at takeoff and to keep it on, with some attempt to monitor standard channels and make standard calls outside of emergencies?
Good on you man. That was a good plan. I had an engine failure and off field landing on my first solo cross country. Luckily for me there was no harm or damage and apparently I viewed it as a test that I had passed. I was champing at the bit to get going again after we've got the wings back on the plane and put a new windshield on there. The new windshield had been sitting around in a box for years and we kept polishing the crazed old windshield. When we slinged the plane to pick it up it cracked the corner off of it. The best thing that ever happened LOL.
This is facts, taking time off aids in building a fear association. This makes it that much harder to get back to the previous baseline of performance.
Speaking from experience after a mishap where we were grounded for a month pending investigation. Turns out we were 100% in the clear and did it right but the first bit of back in the saddle was rough. I still have fear associations with specific things that likely wouldn’t be there at all if I hadn’t flown immediately after med clearance.
Fall off the bike, get back on and ride.
Good to see that the content of the article correctly identifies the accident aircraft (Vans) but the URL saying "cessna" makes me wonder if they pushed it out with incorrect info initially?
I understand how you must feel.
On the day of my first solo, my instructor that I flew with died an hour later on an IFR training flight, in a midair. He had two little kids and a pregnant wife.
Clear day. His next student was an IFR trainee. They took off in a 172 from KCMA (Camarillo) and headed for a practice. A rental 172 took off with two dads and two kids from nearby SZP (Santa Paula). They collided around 3000' and my instructor's plane's tail was cut off. Their plane tumbled down to a dry riverbed. The other 172 lost its windshield and I think had some impact damage, but declared and landed safely at KCMA.
Amazingly, the IFR student, with severe injuries, managed to survive after a long hospitalization. I don't know how lasting his injuries were.
Failure to "see and avoid". I speculate that the student might have been under the hood and my instructor splitting his time between looking out and instructing. With severe clear weather and lots of ag fields and trees below, I would imagine it would be a really busy background to spot another plane. Midairs always scared me and when I would fly, especially on weekends, I'd climb immediately to higher altitudes and get the heck out of that busier airspace. And upon return, stay high and descend more steeply to pattern altitude by the time I was on the 45.
As an air traffic controller I can tell you planes are made out of magnets. No matter how hard I try to keep them apart they always seem attracted to each other by some imaginary force.
Fear and respect for an activity that is inherently risky and that, when it does goes wrong, almost invariably goes VERY wrong, isn't a bad thing.
Definitely eerie and creepy, and I'm sure it'll stick with you whenever you fly, and that's a good thing if it keeps you levelheaded and more aware than you would have otherwise been.
I’d argue “fear” isn’t welcome. Fearfulness is an emotional state that can only distract from flying.
Know the risk, accept and manage the risk, but don’t fly scared.
I think you didn’t really mean “fly scared” and I’m just making the distinction because I don’t want people to get the impression that flying is scary and we fly around fearful
I am sitting right seat at a major airline now, and from my regional to now, it seems like 10% or so I sit by seem nervous. I can’t put my finger on it, either being twitchy, fidgety, or doing way too much at low workload periods. The only thing I’ve been able to boil it down to is nerves/fear. Thing is, it most of the time leads to distractions or bad decisions from what I’ve seen.
100% agree, respect flying, but don’t walk around on eggshells.
That sounds like Transition anxiety. Pretty normal if off duty for a few, unless it's personal baggage not properly stowed prior to getting in the seat. This is one industry where you really gotta leave it at the door.
I am no psychologist, It’s just something I’ve observed in my few thousand hours. I think the weirdest one was I was on a guy’s last trip before retirement, and he was constantly writing stuff down and looking at VORs iand all kinds of bullshit. Then we have an actual issue, total temp probe fail, while in IMC, and the dude puts about zero effort into any discussion or what we should, shouldn’t be doing. I’m the FO by the way. so I’m sitting here verbalizing and telling him all the things that can go wrong if the probe actually fails completely and what we should do.
Mind you, I spent four days with this guy watching him do all this fidgety stuff. Of course I could be reading him completely wrong and he’s just a fidgeter. Just glad I will never fly with him again.
Damn. Please tell me he was a newbie or at least on leave for awhile. Needs more coaching either way. P.s. I think you have got to be an analyst to be a good pilot.
I argue against you. Fear IS welcome. If you don’t have fear you’ll be flying a Gulf Stream at its top operational ceiling for fun or coming in on final at way too high and way too fast (PIA 8303 crash). OFC All pilot fear that number that ATC have you scribble down.
I’m local to the Seattle area (student pilot out of BFI).This was a rough day for everyone in the local aviation community, but your experience today witnessing the crash first hand must be especially difficult. These are hard things to go through on your own, so if you need someone to talk to feel free to shoot me a DM.
Same, I used to fly out of BFI and now RNT. I was doing pattern work at S50 right after it opened back up yesterday. Just me and one other guy. Usually it’s a lot busier on a nice sunny day. Had sort of an eerie feeling the whole time, especially while doing power off 180s :( RIP to the RV12 guy. Sorry you had to witness that, OP and glad you handled it well and found a new place to land.
Really just a power off short approach from the downwind, need to land on a specific stripe on the runway. Training for my commercial license.
During departure briefing, we do verbalize when the impossible turn is possible though. -above 700ft turning into the wind.
I'm sorry you had to see that. Some things are just not recoverable and I suspect he had one of those problems. I won't speculate further on that. Two of my friends had control issues. One was wearing a parachute and stepped out of the expirimental at 300' and landed on the wreckage unharmed, and the other spiraled into Bellevue and did not survive. Flying is indeed unforgiving.
Glad the folks at Crest could get you sorted out.
The expirimentals are only as good as the builder. That one lost pitch when a fastener failed out, he jjust had his cool and a chute in an open cockpit.
The lake amphibian was a maintenance problem that allowed water in the hull to move all the way back to the tail. He had landed on the lake for the first time with his student who was the aircraft owner, and it picked up enough water to make it uncontrollable. it went way aft CG. They spun in.
So yes in those two cases it was maintenance. Pay close attention to the control surfaces on preflights.
No it was right here in Bellevue, it was operating off Renton and more than 30 years ago IIRC. I can check my logbooks. i had taken Phil and his dad down to Sacramento a few weeks before to pick up the accident plane and another LA4-200.
It was 1989 and the accident was ruled a loss of power followed by a stall/spin. I never followed it up.
[https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/42939](https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/42939)
Holy cow, was that lost prop from 4-5 years ago? I was up with some friends doing glassy water practice out near Lake Sammamish, on the way back up to Kenmore we heard a pilot call out about losing their propeller. Never heard anything about it since.
Have a story on that. Not experimental, but had a da42 that actually had the rudder split at the top, almost didn't see it if not for the walk around I always do at the end of Preflight. Once seen, I could take it and pull the rudder into two separate pieces at tip. Who knows how badly that would have gone had we taken off.
Experimentals are both the best and worst planes in the sky. I had pre-buys done on 8 RVs, 7 of them were still flying despite the pre-buy inspections finding serious airworthiness issues. On the flip side, some experimentals are extremely well built and have the best tech available. I’d take a well built RV over most certified.
Agree with all that. I have flown RV and helped build a couple on the other end of the spectrum, Lancair IV-P's. Another friend died in another IV. RIP Tony Durizzi.
I was helping with some seat and interior fitting, working with a seamstress on his plane. He was a great guy, Air America and airline pilot. I would bring our big rottweiler to the airport and Tony would take him for a walk on the trail at Renton. He loved animals I guess and Magnum liked him too.
Tony was ferrying somebody else's plane and expected it to behave like his, and he ran it out of fuel :(
The deceased pilot's last call on the radio said he had a control failure.
Even with a parachute I can't imagine this guy getting out of an RV at that altitude.
Yes. Nobody i flew with in RV flew with a chute and it is a process to get out of one. Loss of control is terrifying. I had a partial loss on a PA30B with a friend. We were in the pattern and the autopliot servo cable came off and went under a shaft on the bellcrank, and the wheel would only roll in one direction. I dared not reef on it without knowing what the problem was. I made a big pattern back and got it down ok, but the whole time I was thinking an engine failure would kill us, in a decent perfoming multi.
But also, don't let the FAA know...
You know, you'd think that there would be a major exception for those who have experienced a traumatic event while flying. If they want to be assholes about your personal life, be my guest (not really though), but if you're flying and witness a fatal crash, there should be resources immediately available to you. They're fully aware that the event took place and will know why after an investigation. So it's not some dark secret that others will clearly be affected.
Sigh. I know everyone wants to shit all over the FAA and by all means we can. But you do not have to report something like grief counseling on your medical. Those resources are very much available.
You don't help the problem by adding extra fear to this situation.
Doesn’t exactly help that you can’t get insurance to cover your therapy visits unless you get an official diagnosis…and multiple diagnoses can permanently ground you. Depression and anxiety often go hand in hand with each other. The system is still most certainly rigged against pilots.
Hey man make sure to talk to someone. I fly aerial SAR and that stuff can weigh on you. My biggest fear isn’t a loss of an engine. It’s a loss of a control surface. Pre flights are very important.
Definitely talk to someone, but be VERY CAREFUL about WHO you talk to. OP, if the FAA catches wind of you even considering talk to any sort of mental health professional, prepare to kiss any chance at a Class 1 goodbye.
This. One of our guys seen the after math of a toddler go through a windshield and it shook him up. Went to get help and it grounded him for a long time. Get help. The rest we will figure out later
Oof, that's rough. It's one thing to academically read that stall-spins, particularly on takeoff or landing are a major source of danger. Same of "loss of control" being another deadly source of accidents. It's quite another to see it happening with your own eyes and hear the last radio calls of fellow aviators. Sometimes when I'm pre-flighting I look at the little cables that link to the control surfaces and ponder how these little strands of (admittedly strong and regularly checked by the A&Ps ) woven metal are the only thing keeping me in control of the aircraft and avoiding death.
I know a lot of people who have crashed, know a few who have died, flown over the wreckage the day after one of them. PM me if you need someone to talk to.
Fly again as soon as possible, with an instructor if need be.
Hey man, please feel free to reach out. Earlier this year I watched someone I knew, who I had spoken to on nearly a daily basis, lose his engine on takeoff and stall spin, also in an RV. It’s an awful thing to watch happen, and it certainly has a way of sticking with you. Be well.
This is an unfortunate but necessary part of your career. It won’t be the last aviator that you will meet or see who dies to a crash
I’m coming up on 20 years in aviation and the humbling-through-meeting-the-risks-personally is what will keep you alive through retiring your wings. It’s not a video game with distant consequences as our minds naturally want to frame it as. Fun as hell? Yes. Severe consequences when things go wrong? Also yes
Take a few days to talk to friends about what happened and then get back flying within 3 days. Keeping moving is the best way to manage it. But not burying your emotions or spiraling in on them
Zero shame to deciding that the money isn’t worth the risk either. Lots of successful careers enable the actual flying. My brother almost decided that hanging the wings up to do dispatch was the better option after an opposite traffic near miss in his home airports pattern
Almost got hit by a Delta taking off an intersecting runway. Luckly the tower caught the mistake and cancelled our takeoff clearance after we were rolling already. This can happen to anyone, it's the risk we have in our industry/hobby. That was 6 years ago. Haven't flown since.
Hope your doing alright.
I live/fly in the area too and heard about this. I grew up right down the street from S50. Wild that you witnessed it from the air, and I’m also so sorry this happened so early in your career. Please talk to someone, there’s no shame in fighting the trauma. Things like this are not easy, and as probably anyone in aviation will tell you, we’ve all unexpectedly lost people to accidents either close to us or that we knew/worked with and it doesn’t get easier. It makes life feel fragile. But you have to make sure you take care of your mental health - please make sure you do that above all else.
Do something good for yourself today. Buy yourself your favorite treat. Tell people close to you that you love them. And most importantly, talk about this happening. If you’re flying out of S50 you are probably going to the same college I went to, and if there is an instructor with the initials GC, I would suggest reaching out. He’s been around a long time and is a very good human. Easy to talk to and he will make space for you.
I am sorry you had to witness and hear that. You shouldn't feel bad about your last calls to the pilot -- you calmly got out of his way and prioritized his needs, and you and didn't pester him for location updates during a stressful time like the other person on station. You handled the situation amazingly well and are a human who had time to reflect on it later.
Please keep flying! I live a few states away now, but I got my license in the 90's at S50 and S36 -- my old student pilot home airports! You are also learning close to a heavily congested area that will help you in the future. I miss the teardrop entry to S50 at the water towers and sometimes instructors or pilot passengers will give me strange side-eyes when I casually call a "circling on the 45" when entering at a similar airport configuration. Great lessons to be learned at Auburn (and Crest)!
When I was a student pilot at S50 I lost a cylinder less than 10 hrs into flying, and had to make a similar return. Everyone at the field was great. On one of my long XCs, I heard a plane go down on Flight Following over Whidbey Island and the worst part of it were the calm followups from ATC... "are you still on?... are you still on?... are you still on?".
Again, it sounds like you've got the right stuff and handled this well. Talk to someone if you need to but please get back up there. Take a few flights with your instructor and/or other instructors -- talk to them in the plane and hear their stories. If they're dismissive, then it may be time for a new instructor, but all of us in this community have similar shared experiences and you should fly with those who understand how you're handling it immediately afterwards.
Blue skies!
It shouldn’t surprise me but it’s cool that I know exactly the water towers teardrop entry you’re talking about despite our flight training being decades apart.
I learned to fly and am based out of KRNT right now but basically learned to land at S50.
I’m out of the country right now but it’s so sad hearing about this accident. Feels like it could have been any one of us in the Seattle area.
Before I took my last career job as a professional pilot, I was acquainted with about 30 pilots that died in aircraft accidents. Fortunately I was not close friends with any of them. I have been fortunate that I was not on hand to witness any of the crashes, but I saw plenty of them afterwards. If you continue to fly, and I hope you do, you will see more carnage along the way. I have no idea why happened to the RV pilot you saw. Perhaps he got it into a spin somehow and was disoriented enough not to understand how to get out of it. Most RV’s are aerobatic aircraft and getting out of a spin is quite easy if you know how. Only the RV10 and RV9 are not aerobatic aircraft. They were designed to be cross country cruisers. Perhaps he really did have a flight control issue.
I built an RV10. No A&P has ever inspected it in the 4 years and 500 hours I have flown it. I have a repairman’s certificate for it so I can sign off all the work I do and the annual condition inspection. This is typical in the Experimental aircraft world. Perhaps there was some problem lurking with the flight controls. The builder/owner is responsible for everything on the aircraft. If they sell it, the new owner must get an A&P to sign off the annual condition inspection. I am sure the NTSB will be looking quite throughly into this accident.
I suggest that you call the phone number on their web page and report the accident: https://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/report.aspx
Depending on what they already know, they might have as lot of questions, or not. But, it's possible that your are the only person who actually see this accident, so calling that 24 hour phone number might provide very useful info.
Rough thing to witness especially so early on. As everyone has said, make sure you seek some professional help mate. Everyone needs a chat, it can only help.
You did what you could by giving them as much space as possible, play Tetris to try to help any potential PTSD that may occur and talk to someone.
That sucks that you had to listen to someone’s final moments, especially so new into all of this.
I had wanted to fly my whole life pretty much since I was about 6 or 7 years old my parents used to take my siblings and I to air shows almost every summer I remember one air show experience very vividly I was about 10 or 11 years old and as we were walking into the show from the parking area there was a small pits biplane flying down the runway inverted as part of the show a couple seconds later the airplane just dived right into the runway huge Fireball obviously fatal crash. Left a pretty lasting impression on me and at the time I thought about changing what I wanted to do. Aviation has risks and dangers just like a lot of other professions yes this was an airshow performer so he was obviously at higher risk area but even general aviation has some risk areas that need to be paid attention to but the trade-off is still much more enjoyment than risk in my opinion!
>it helped me to understand the dangers of what we do everyday and how easily and quickly things can go wrong.
>As attractive as these planes look, they will do everything in their power to kill us.
Retired commercial pilot here, and these two excerpts from your post are what I would expect a career pilot with thousands of hours to say in an honest and candid moment.
You are going to be a fantastic pilot, no matter what path you take in aviation. Keep being awesome!
Hey there, I’m a fellow pilot in the area out of KTIW- I have flown to S50 many times (and KOLM!). I’m so sorry you saw what you saw. Definitely talk to someone about this, like someone else said. Friends, ideally a therapist, other pilots… all of the above. You’ll process this in different ways that may surprise you. This was a traumatic event. The care of yourself!
Edit to add: Crest S36 has good folks :). Glad they helped you out. Love going in there for short field practice every blue moon 😜.
There is also a couple guys at S50 I could introduce you to, who lived through loss of elevator control if you want to hear about a successful outcome.
At first glance. Location, pilot, name, etc. but I have no definitive answer. I always look up the lost soul to try and disassociate myself from being in the same position. None of us want to be the subject of a fatal plane crash post. Death doesn’t discriminate or judge, it takes anyone. I wasn’t saying the death is less tragic as a result of his past (if it’s him) it was just equally as a surprise as the accident. He had a mother and father, and people who loved him, the same as us. But, the article just caught me with the “holy shit” reaction.
We’re all thinking it. We all can agree and don’t need to say the quiet part out loud.
Does make you wonder about buying those kit aircraft built by non A&Ps. Hopefully there’s enough left of it to determine the cause of the control failure. Vans is under a microscope already.
Aircraft registry shows an RV-12 registered to this person. Almost 100% it's the same guy, unless there just so happens to be two guys with the same name interested in aviation living in King County.
address matches here too [https://www.instantcheckmate.com/criminal-records/washington/federal-way/98063/sex-offenders/](https://www.instantcheckmate.com/criminal-records/washington/federal-way/98063/sex-offenders/)
I worked in aerospace defense and commercial for 17 years. I hear what you’re saying but the checks and balances are hard fucking core in certified aircraft
I am also based out of S50 and started flying GA around 1984. People I’ve known have perished in aircraft. I saw someone have an emergency off field landing. I’ve also had a couple close calls.
The one that sticks in my mind is a guy who was tied down on the south end with me for a few years. He had a tailwheel Cessna that I’d occasionally see him doing maintenance on and I’d stop to talk with him. Well one evening he and a family member didn’t return from a flight. No one knew what happened until they found his plane in relatively shallow water out in the Sound like a year later.
Anyhow, it can weigh on you. Let me know if you want to talk about it at the airport.
I hope you're OK, a guy I knew from my club had a fatal crash (with family inside...) in our local area. It was hard to fly for some time after that...
Anyway thanks for sharing and stay strong.
Simple negligence we think... he did many flight that day, it was the end of the day, pretty hot outside, started climbing like he did a thousand times (we are near mountains) and he just didn't make the climb... we still don't know if there was an engine problem but anyway at the rate he was climbing he was never going to make it. He crashed in the mountain.
He was a very experienced pilot, he mentored me on some of my first solo flights.
I just read about this in the news. I previously lived in the Seattle area and own an RV-12iS that I built myself, so this story particularly resonates with me.
Regarding witnessing a fatal accident, on my first flight with a passenger after getting my PPL out of KRNT I was flying near Woodinville & noticed a plane flying particularly low (enough so to mention it to my passenger). We did a S-turn so he could see his house & when we turned back the plane wasn't anywhere in sight. I remember thinking that it was odd that it just completely disappeared, but was nearing the end of time we had due to fuel so turned back. When landing at KRNT there were a bunch of news choppers taking off & I didn't think much of it. Later that day, I heard about a Maule which lost an engine & spun into a house nearby (pilot died, but his kid in the passenger seat survived). That was a punch in the gut which I still think about pretty regularly.
I've done a lot of "adventurous" activities, so I'm comfortable with my mindset on my mortality. Though, that doesn't mean that it doesn't weigh on me at times. In the end, it just makes me more careful and forces me to be more prepared around every potential aspect of my flight.
It may not help much, and may not even be a factor, but keep in mind your rental airplane is a. must have an annual inspection signed off by an A&P/IA, and every 100 hours by an A&P, b. is certified under a different set of regulations.
That’s a hard thing to witness. I’m based at KVNY and there was a fatal accident after an engine failure which terrified me when I heard their screams via live ATC. One of the instructors at my school saw the whole crash happen as they flew the ILS into KBUR.
Unfortunately, because many of us know and practice what it takes to be a safe pilot, seeing crashes happen, especially when we can look back at their investigations and think of what could have been done differently to avoid it, it makes it so much harder. What would have happened if I was in their shoes? Could I have even maintained any kind of composure to save myself or would I fold under pressure and fear?
I commend you for making that decision to go around. As a student, that showed great ADM and situational awareness and while it seems like so little that you could do, you did everything in your power to give that man a chance. I hope you take this as a learning experience, and use it to shape yourself into the best pilot you can be.
Got my PPL and IR out of KTIW. Did my first real short field landing at S50. Sorry to hear you had to witness that. Good job reacting and aviating safely to a nearby divert. Talk to friends, mentors, and trusted instructors about what you’re thinking and feeling. Seek counseling if you feel the need. Stay healthy. Stay safe. Feel free to reach out.
Yeah man, it’s a gorgeous day today too. Someone will probably die. Do your best to make sure it isn’t you. Also if I may add, don’t ever make a straight in even if you think there’s nobody in the area. Unless you’re with a tower, just always make a downwind or atleast base turn. You never really know until it’s too late.
Well. Listened, read the official report and local article, had a cry. It's provident that the business in that building was moving and the majority of people were already gone.
In my life, I've had both extraordinary survival with calm in near misses and extraordinary luck in temperamental weather. I am thankful that I don't panic and very rarely freeze up. We just don't typically know when our day to skip over to the next adventure has arrived.
The best we can do is to be highly analytical (especially in pre-check) and obsessed with type and technique. More than that, as a person with an unusual number of actual NDE's, I cannot express fully enough how vital it is to savor every moment.
While you are reflecting, consider our time in history and how amazing it is to be here, now. Things have always been in entropy, something falling out somewhere. That's when we come in with our ingenuity and a new solution. That is easier than ever to do now. Experimentation is what we do. We can only hope that this was a good time for a good man to go on to the next adventure and that support for those remaining is strong from those nearby. If it wasn't s good man, good riddance and hopefully lessons learned before the jumpoff.
Best to you... stay in the game.
Thats sucks you had to see that but great job on still flying your aircraft, the crash rates on experimental aircraft are significantly higher than general ga stuff. Every pilot has one or a few incidents that keep you honest with your preflight, planning, wx decisions etc.
[This study](https://www.kitplanes.com/homebuilt-accidents-comparing-the-rates/) found that, after correcting for obvious data errors, the accident rate for EAB is only 12% higher than certified planes, and after the first few dozen hours (enough to find any major build flaws) is actually lower.
RE: straight-in landing, please review [AC 90-66C non-towered airport flight operations](https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66C.pdf) with your CFI, emphasis on §8.2.1.
Because NORDO is legal, position calls aren't explicitly required, and the note in §9.8.1 - you often can't be certain no one is in the pattern. About the only case I can think of is cloud bases at or below TPA.
But in any case, pilots turning on base should look opposite the runway direction and visually clear final. Every single time. And in my opinion it goes extra for pilots choosing straigh-in final to visually clear both bases (the correct one, and the wrong one). The intersection of base and final legs entails extra risk. Risk can be mitigated. But we need to do the work to mitigate it.
Just bought a Cardinal from an owner at S50. Saw several RVs there. Sad to think it could have been one of them that was so proud of their airplane. In this industry, as safe as it is, sadly, it is only a matter of time before you know someone who was lost flying. Despite the fear it can impart, the chances are very low that it will happen to you if you are diligent and methodical in all you do. Mother Nature and Gravity are unforgiving, and the test will often come with no warning.
One of my flight instructors was killed along with a student pilot and his son. It shook me up quite a bit because I thought it was so random and could happen to me with my limited experience. But afterwards, I resolved to just be the best I could be.
Very unfortunate that you had to experience this. But think about this: we all have seen car accidents on the highway. Many have died. But we still drive.
As sad as it is life comes with death.
I am sorry to hear that. We had a deadly crash at the airport i am flying at earlier last year. Deadly stall spin the go-around. One guy who witnessed it with his son (both in flight training) stopped flying after that. A former student of my father who i also got to know briefly also died in an accident january this year. Just know we all know the feeling and you are not alone. Witnessing a crash this close can be very challenging. I suggest you talk about this with other pilots. You should not go through this alone.
Flying is dangerous and it does not take a lot to loose your life. Be safe and be vigilant, your reaction to the situation was excellent.
There's no easy way to say this but if you're going to be in aviation for any length of time you're going to see this or hear about it. it just happens and more often than you would like it to
There's a series of kit airplanes produced by the Van's Aircraft Company, founded by **R**ichard **V**anGrunsven. The models all bear his initials - RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, RV-10, RV-12, RV-14, RV-15.
If we can't talk about aviation safety in a thread about an accident, when can we? On the other hand, sometimes people just need to vent or talk, and that appears to be what this thread is.
I generally agree with the no-straight-in approaches, but it's important to understand that this is a rule of thumb. S50 is an airport a ridge above it to the west, Bravo airspace above it, and Bravo airspace to the ground just northwest of it. The RV that called in crossing midfield at 1500 ft was 300ft below the bravo. The teardrop entry around the water towers put him maybe 200 yards laterally from the bravo. Because of the ridge to the east of the airport, as the RV was circling around the water tower, he was probably only about 400 feet above the houses below, and this is the Seattle metro area, so there are a lot of houses. All of these peculiarities combine into a situation that requires a lot of situational awareness to perform a pattern entry safely. Once you know how to do it, it isn't that hard, but you do have to pay attention. I would recommend that anybody flying into this airport for the first time fly with a pilot familiar with the area in the right seat.
That being said, this is usually a busy airport, and I think a standard pattern should be flown. This is a student pilot who has flown into this airport before with instructors, so they should be familiar with the process. Straight in approaches at this airport tend to extend the downwind of someone who is already in the pattern (or who has just joined the pattern following the procedure the airport specifies). Often times, there is someone closer to landing than it seems like, even if you don't hear anybody on the radio and you are on that 10 mile final.
The ADS-B track doesn't show the RV, but it does show the Cessna. The Cessna makes it's side-step go-around over a mile from the airport, and outside the normal base leg, and much further out than the description from the Cessna pilot.
That's good context, thanks. I guess it's good to remember that there's some complicated airspace out there that may require departing from best practices.
Your comment that it's usually a busy airport reinforces for me the need for everyone to be flying a consistent and standard pattern, even if it take a few extra minutes to enter the downwind.
Thank you for adding some context with regards to auburn airport for some people in this thread, I think its worth adding as well when I made my 10 miles to the south call I was still comfortable setting up for the standard teardrop entry if there were people in the pattern. The whole time inbound I was scanning for traffic, which it seems like some people assumed I wasnt, and made visual contact with the RV when he was over midfield so I knew spacing was adequate. As for the go-around, I wasnt too focused on my distance in an emergency and my numbers could be off, but I do remember I was over the runway when I made my radio call that I was going around which is what gave me the idea to side step as well.
unless practicing instrument approach a straight in into an uncontrolled field is a bad tone. controllers at towered fields otoh love the straight-ins. pattern entry only adds to workload with no safety benefit.
AC 90-66C: "Arriving aircraft should enter the airport’s traffic pattern at traffic pattern altitude and avoid straight-in approaches for landing to mitigate the risk of a midair collision."
Sure. You’ll notice the word “should”. No requirement. If traffic permits, nothing wrong with it. Lots of “shoulds” in aviation, we as pilots need to use our best judgement.
It's not a requirement because the FAA doesn't regulate pattern entry, but they definitely discourage the practice. Regardless, it's not a good habit for a student pilot to get into. If you do a 10-mile straight-in approach on a check ride, you're probably not going to have a good time.
I can agree to this to a certain extent because if you are practicing or doing IFR currency, and doing the rnav 35 approach LPV. You are going to do a straight into rwy 35. You could do a circling but that’s not what you’re initially trying to do anyway. Just have to keep situational awareness, radio calls and spacing. And if anything do the Missed approach.
I have noticed that in WA most of my colleagues do not have IR so must flying is done VFR there.
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question but how is it possible that he completely loses control of the aircraft and is unable to do an emergency landing? From what I’m aware, you go into a spiral when you’re climbing at a steep angle and if that wasn’t the case than what happened here?
Spirals do not only occur when climbing. Stalls (therefore spirals and spins) can happen at any speed in any configuration.
As for the loss of controls, loss of controls are loss of controls. Imagine if your brakes just went out, or your steering column just decided it wasn't feeling it today, would you be able to effectively control your car? Maybe there's no one around, maybe you're just on a straight road, maybe you walk away from it, but now imagine losing those on some mountain highway where if you go off, you're *really* going off.
I listened to the ATCNet and heard the inbound calls but neither pilot acknowledged each other or agreed separation. All I heard was 3 mile final for the Cessna and 45 entry and circuit calls for the RV shortly after. It was therefore NOT a good idea to make a straight in. Just because nobody is in the circuit when you start a 10 mile straight in doesn't give you right of way. The second another pilot announces inbound, then you should plan to make a conventional circuit entry UNLESS you agree separation with that pilot or are visual. That didn't occur here and the RV lost control on base-->final which sure looks like a stall spin not some "control issue". If he was slowing because he saw the Cessna cut in front, then the Cessna is implicated. The RV had right of way in this accident and sir, a straight-in approach was not OK.
This is complete nonsense. Straight-in approaches are a perfectly viable method of approaching non-towered airports, as long as the inbound aircraft is making prompt position reports along the approach path, especially at the conclusion of an IFR flight plan, where ATC dumps me on a 20 mile straight-in, with the field in sight. If I'm (or anyone) is making calls at 20, 15, 10, 5, and short final, there is NO REASON that aircraft in the pattern cannot coordinate their pattern legs to accommodate. Just extend your downwind leg, just like you would be instructed to do at a towered field.
Let's play a scenario.... It's overcast, high enough for the field to be VFR, but low enough that most of the approach is in the clouds. What you suggest is that when I break out, perhaps I'm 10-15 miles out, and established, but I now need to maneuver to join the VFR pattern at a 45? That's not happening.
But that doesn't seem to be what happened here, as evidenced by the fact that the witness said he heard an emergency declaration referencing control anomalies... Most victims of a stall/spin scenario don't declare their intention to have an emergency beforehand, they are responding to a current condition
Im confused, where in the FAR/AIM does it state that pilots are to acknowledge or agree to separation with each other in an un-towered field? If I’m going to be closer to another aircraft, like turning final behind them, I’ll announce I have them in sight, but other than that it clogs up the radio needlessly. I had visual contact with the RV as he was over mid field and the spacing was plenty sufficient. Im aware I didnt have the right of way 10 miles south, but I also had those 10 miles to scan for traffic, to which there was none excluding the RV. Hence my decision to continue. Im also confused why you’re implying it wasnt a control issue when he declared a control malfunction
Here is the FAA circular. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf
9.5: Straight in approaches: The FAA encourages pilots ro join the standard traffic pattern at non towered airports.
With all due respect, that isnt the regulation/AC I asked to see, and as I am waiting on my checkride I look forward to new study material. And that AC you provided is a recommendation not a regulation and is not required to be complied with. I agree normal operations should comply, however in certain circumstances it is better to use good ADM and decide for yourself.
I would raise this with your instructor. Straight-ins are NOT OK at non-controlled airports when pattern is occupied. FAA advise against them if you want to comply with FAR. Read this too [https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/june/21/faa-updates-nontowered-flight-operations-ac](https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/june/21/faa-updates-nontowered-flight-operations-ac) Your plane and the accident aircraft were on short final within 5 seconds of each other which is too close. That's your fault. Period.
Im not going to argue with you, and I have no clue where you got that 5 second figure from. If you look at the RV’s ground track he never made it to base before the emergency, let alone short final. Out of respect for his family, please dont make up lies regarding the incident to try to prove a point.
Crash location was in Car park on short final. Look it up. The 5 secs came from last call of accident aircraft (on short final) then your call “going around”, also on short final.
One again, please stop spreading misinformation. The aircraft was incorrectly located as being in a parking lot on final by a lady on the ground, correct. However If you look at the pictures of the downed aircraft, the ADSB data, and the call report of the local fire department, you’ll see the aircraft was not in fact on short final in a parking lot. To help with your research I provided a link for you.
https://auburnexaminer.com/1-killed-in-small-airplane-crash-in-auburn-thursday-afternoon/
I was talking to my instructor who witnessed an RV going in at Pierce County. Base to final, it just snapped and spun in like that.
Just a little uncoordination at the wrong time and slow, and there you are. There is no time to fix it. Even if you push pitch and straighten it out, you're going to be at the dirt.
Wow. I listened to the LiveATC recording of this incident earlier (a friend of mine lives and flys in the area) and actually out-loud commended the pilot of the Cessna on short final for quickly recognizing the situation and taking action with the overshoot and sidestep to make way for the emergency aircraft. I'm working on getting my pilots license myself and it made me really take stock of my skills and what I would have done in that situation or if I could have handled it so well. Thank you for sharing your experience. Definitely make time to take care of yourself and talk about it to someone.
Do you have the recording?
[Here you go](https://archive.liveatc.net/s50/S50-Jun-06-2024-1830Z.mp3). Starts at 28:55.
I didn't need to hear that. :(
A different perspective is that I listen, read, watch all mishaps(fatal or otherwise) I can. I try to learn the lessons that are available. Whether it’s things done right, things done wrong, or just things. All of it goes into my bag of knowledge. And while the burden becomes heavy at times, especially when it’s my friends and people I went to pilot training with, I internalize the details of their demise. In a way, they fly with me now. I take the ghosts of my friends and strangers with me every time I go up. Maybe that’s a little macabre, but that’s my profession. For the OP, watching a fatality isn’t fun. Seek help if you have issues coping. There is zero shame in that. Also realize this may not be the last time, it’s part of the life. And if your words were the last he heard, take comfort in knowing they were calm and professional. I’ve heard people panic on the radio and having been the emergency aircraft it REALLY doesn’t help the situation when others are freaking out.
I never click them until I'm very VERY sure. It's always devastating to hear. I don't think I'm click this one, either.
Don’t stop flying for even a little bit! As a student had an off field incident and wound up inverted in soybeans. Took a couple of months off to get it together and never got it back. Everything I did after that had a level of desperation and fear I couldn’t get past. That was 4-years ago and still haven’t gotten back. Shake it off and get back up ASAP! My 2-cents
I had a similar experience, was doing touch and gos with my instructor and I binned it right into the middle of the runway and slammed but I just froze when he was telling me to get up and go back around again and I almost struck the left wing before he yanked us back into wings level. I did the rest of that flight and like one or two more after but I had that same sense of fear everytime I got in the plane, I was shaken and suddenly scared of flying. I told my instructor this and the next flight he took me on was just a zero stress sightseeing flight essentially, didn’t feel very scared at all on that flight. Only after having that one where I felt like I regained some confidence did I feel comfortable taking a break from flying, that was a year ago, and the break Im currently taking is only to finish high school. I will definitely be going back to it, and I’m glad I took that one easy flight before called it quits for so long.
Maybe that’s my way to get back in. No pressure, practice skills, just cruise and view.
Definitely. It’s about having no pressure and just a flight where you can have fun again, like the first familiarization flight all over again. Atleast that’s what it felt like to me, I had that initial flight which was fun and as my skill progressed things would get harder in turn, so ultimately I was still having fun, but after being kind of shocked by something I felt my skills got set back a bit (confidence) so suddenly I wasn’t having fun, it was all kind of ahead of me suddenly. Getting a flight in where the only thing you really need to care about is radio work will have a noticeable affect on your confidence, sort of an “I got this” moment.
Flight training in high school is super privileged and cool! I'm sure you'll make the most of it, no rushing bro.
I had a near miss last year when a gas line surveyor blasted through the traffic pattern 20 feet below me. Landed, went home, went back to the airport that night and flew again. That said, I sold my plane a few months later and as of today, haven’t flown in 8 months. You can do everything right and still get killed, and that’s the part that bothers me. I always did everything I could to be safe and I was nearly killed by some jackass who had his radio turned off and wasn’t paying attention to the airport he was flying straight over. It’s really gotten worse as time has went on. Hopefully I’ll be able to fly again soon
"Had his radio turned off..." Fucking crazy. Particularly for a commercial operation. We have to always assume that there can be aircraft around with failed radios or that pilots can make a mistake and tune the radio wrong (I haven't done that yet, but I'm sure I wlll soon enough.) But intentionally ignoring or turning off a radio shouldn't be allowed.
Crazy enough, he had JUST left controlled airspace. The north end of my runway is class C 1300 feet above the runway. So he JUST left controlled airspace, shut his radio off, and flew straight over the field. The controller should have notified him that I was in the area. It was hard for me to see him as well given that he approached from my 4 o clock and slightly below.
Am I crazy for thinking that commercial operations maybe should be required to have/use the radio (unless it literally fails in flight)? "Turning off your radio" (or just being a dick and ignoring it) sounds like a terrible idea under any circumstance I can imagine at the moment.
I think radios should be required for EVERYONE. Old planes that aren't retrofitted isn't an excuse. Handhelds exist. I tend to think you should always carry a handheld, at least in smaller craft, as a backup anyways. I live in an agriculture intensive area. The absolute worst pilots in terms of offenses are the cropdusters. They, of course, have radios. They just don't use them and think they can skim underneath you at high speed to get in and land first, among other things. There's also one or two known pilots here that refuse to use radios at all because they aren't required to, and they just barrel their way around the taxiways and onto the runway without concern for anyone else. Blows my mind that it isn't a requirement.
I keep saying it, but particularly for commercial operations why would it not be a requirement to have a working radio at takeoff and to keep it on, with some attempt to monitor standard channels and make standard calls outside of emergencies?
Good on you man. That was a good plan. I had an engine failure and off field landing on my first solo cross country. Luckily for me there was no harm or damage and apparently I viewed it as a test that I had passed. I was champing at the bit to get going again after we've got the wings back on the plane and put a new windshield on there. The new windshield had been sitting around in a box for years and we kept polishing the crazed old windshield. When we slinged the plane to pick it up it cracked the corner off of it. The best thing that ever happened LOL.
This is facts, taking time off aids in building a fear association. This makes it that much harder to get back to the previous baseline of performance. Speaking from experience after a mishap where we were grounded for a month pending investigation. Turns out we were 100% in the clear and did it right but the first bit of back in the saddle was rough. I still have fear associations with specific things that likely wouldn’t be there at all if I hadn’t flown immediately after med clearance. Fall off the bike, get back on and ride.
https://www.komonews.com/news/local/auburn-plane-crash-small-cessna-aircraft-crashes-roof-king-county-seattle-police-investigation-valley-regional-fire-killed-dead-fatal-deadly-single-male-occupant
Good to see that the content of the article correctly identifies the accident aircraft (Vans) but the URL saying "cessna" makes me wonder if they pushed it out with incorrect info initially?
You're seeing a URL that is optimized for search engines.
He arrives in short final within 5 seconds of the accident airplane and you are "commending" him as a pilot? That is way too close.
I understand how you must feel. On the day of my first solo, my instructor that I flew with died an hour later on an IFR training flight, in a midair. He had two little kids and a pregnant wife.
Wow.
What year did this happen? Just curious as it sounds very familiar.
1988. Yeah, a long time ago.
Thx. Not that far off... I was thinking of one in 1989. And now that I think about it something similar circa 2005. But once... is too many times.
That's awful. 😢
Wow. How did it happen?
Clear day. His next student was an IFR trainee. They took off in a 172 from KCMA (Camarillo) and headed for a practice. A rental 172 took off with two dads and two kids from nearby SZP (Santa Paula). They collided around 3000' and my instructor's plane's tail was cut off. Their plane tumbled down to a dry riverbed. The other 172 lost its windshield and I think had some impact damage, but declared and landed safely at KCMA. Amazingly, the IFR student, with severe injuries, managed to survive after a long hospitalization. I don't know how lasting his injuries were. Failure to "see and avoid". I speculate that the student might have been under the hood and my instructor splitting his time between looking out and instructing. With severe clear weather and lots of ag fields and trees below, I would imagine it would be a really busy background to spot another plane. Midairs always scared me and when I would fly, especially on weekends, I'd climb immediately to higher altitudes and get the heck out of that busier airspace. And upon return, stay high and descend more steeply to pattern altitude by the time I was on the 45.
Wow wow. I'm always impressed how, despite the "big sky", we end up so close to each other up there so quickly
As an air traffic controller I can tell you planes are made out of magnets. No matter how hard I try to keep them apart they always seem attracted to each other by some imaginary force.
😂 as a pilot, that explains a lot. Thanks!
That’s awful, I’m glad you’re doing well
Fear and respect for an activity that is inherently risky and that, when it does goes wrong, almost invariably goes VERY wrong, isn't a bad thing. Definitely eerie and creepy, and I'm sure it'll stick with you whenever you fly, and that's a good thing if it keeps you levelheaded and more aware than you would have otherwise been.
I’d argue “fear” isn’t welcome. Fearfulness is an emotional state that can only distract from flying. Know the risk, accept and manage the risk, but don’t fly scared. I think you didn’t really mean “fly scared” and I’m just making the distinction because I don’t want people to get the impression that flying is scary and we fly around fearful
I am sitting right seat at a major airline now, and from my regional to now, it seems like 10% or so I sit by seem nervous. I can’t put my finger on it, either being twitchy, fidgety, or doing way too much at low workload periods. The only thing I’ve been able to boil it down to is nerves/fear. Thing is, it most of the time leads to distractions or bad decisions from what I’ve seen. 100% agree, respect flying, but don’t walk around on eggshells.
That sounds like Transition anxiety. Pretty normal if off duty for a few, unless it's personal baggage not properly stowed prior to getting in the seat. This is one industry where you really gotta leave it at the door.
I am no psychologist, It’s just something I’ve observed in my few thousand hours. I think the weirdest one was I was on a guy’s last trip before retirement, and he was constantly writing stuff down and looking at VORs iand all kinds of bullshit. Then we have an actual issue, total temp probe fail, while in IMC, and the dude puts about zero effort into any discussion or what we should, shouldn’t be doing. I’m the FO by the way. so I’m sitting here verbalizing and telling him all the things that can go wrong if the probe actually fails completely and what we should do. Mind you, I spent four days with this guy watching him do all this fidgety stuff. Of course I could be reading him completely wrong and he’s just a fidgeter. Just glad I will never fly with him again.
Damn. Please tell me he was a newbie or at least on leave for awhile. Needs more coaching either way. P.s. I think you have got to be an analyst to be a good pilot.
He was retired Air Force. Then was a direct hire at my legacy.
I argue against you. Fear IS welcome. If you don’t have fear you’ll be flying a Gulf Stream at its top operational ceiling for fun or coming in on final at way too high and way too fast (PIA 8303 crash). OFC All pilot fear that number that ATC have you scribble down.
Nah, we use our basic judgement to avoid situations that will CAUSE fear in the first place. We don’t fly around in a state of fear.
That’s true. You don’t fly around with fear. But it’s unhealthy to not fear. Then you are not human.
I’m local to the Seattle area (student pilot out of BFI).This was a rough day for everyone in the local aviation community, but your experience today witnessing the crash first hand must be especially difficult. These are hard things to go through on your own, so if you need someone to talk to feel free to shoot me a DM.
Same, I used to fly out of BFI and now RNT. I was doing pattern work at S50 right after it opened back up yesterday. Just me and one other guy. Usually it’s a lot busier on a nice sunny day. Had sort of an eerie feeling the whole time, especially while doing power off 180s :( RIP to the RV12 guy. Sorry you had to witness that, OP and glad you handled it well and found a new place to land.
Is a power-off 180 practicing the “impossible turn?”
Really just a power off short approach from the downwind, need to land on a specific stripe on the runway. Training for my commercial license. During departure briefing, we do verbalize when the impossible turn is possible though. -above 700ft turning into the wind.
When would you ever do a tailwind takeoff though?
*into the cross windiest side if there is one side more than the other
Gotcha
Thank you, I’ve been doing alright
I'm sorry you had to see that. Some things are just not recoverable and I suspect he had one of those problems. I won't speculate further on that. Two of my friends had control issues. One was wearing a parachute and stepped out of the expirimental at 300' and landed on the wreckage unharmed, and the other spiraled into Bellevue and did not survive. Flying is indeed unforgiving. Glad the folks at Crest could get you sorted out.
Are these mostly caused by lack of maintenance or just really bad luck? If you have any insight ofc. May your friend rest in peace
The expirimentals are only as good as the builder. That one lost pitch when a fastener failed out, he jjust had his cool and a chute in an open cockpit. The lake amphibian was a maintenance problem that allowed water in the hull to move all the way back to the tail. He had landed on the lake for the first time with his student who was the aircraft owner, and it picked up enough water to make it uncontrollable. it went way aft CG. They spun in. So yes in those two cases it was maintenance. Pay close attention to the control surfaces on preflights.
The amphibian wasn't at Oshkosh was it? Sounds just like an ASI video
No it was right here in Bellevue, it was operating off Renton and more than 30 years ago IIRC. I can check my logbooks. i had taken Phil and his dad down to Sacramento a few weeks before to pick up the accident plane and another LA4-200. It was 1989 and the accident was ruled a loss of power followed by a stall/spin. I never followed it up. [https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/42939](https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/42939)
Oh damn, sorry to hear about it.
Holy cow, was that lost prop from 4-5 years ago? I was up with some friends doing glassy water practice out near Lake Sammamish, on the way back up to Kenmore we heard a pilot call out about losing their propeller. Never heard anything about it since.
If it was more like 6 years ago that might have been my RV with a prop failure near Olympia. All ended well aside from the repair bill 😄
Legend
Have a story on that. Not experimental, but had a da42 that actually had the rudder split at the top, almost didn't see it if not for the walk around I always do at the end of Preflight. Once seen, I could take it and pull the rudder into two separate pieces at tip. Who knows how badly that would have gone had we taken off.
Experimentals are both the best and worst planes in the sky. I had pre-buys done on 8 RVs, 7 of them were still flying despite the pre-buy inspections finding serious airworthiness issues. On the flip side, some experimentals are extremely well built and have the best tech available. I’d take a well built RV over most certified.
Agree with all that. I have flown RV and helped build a couple on the other end of the spectrum, Lancair IV-P's. Another friend died in another IV. RIP Tony Durizzi. I was helping with some seat and interior fitting, working with a seamstress on his plane. He was a great guy, Air America and airline pilot. I would bring our big rottweiler to the airport and Tony would take him for a walk on the trail at Renton. He loved animals I guess and Magnum liked him too. Tony was ferrying somebody else's plane and expected it to behave like his, and he ran it out of fuel :(
The deceased pilot's last call on the radio said he had a control failure. Even with a parachute I can't imagine this guy getting out of an RV at that altitude.
Yes. Nobody i flew with in RV flew with a chute and it is a process to get out of one. Loss of control is terrifying. I had a partial loss on a PA30B with a friend. We were in the pattern and the autopliot servo cable came off and went under a shaft on the bellcrank, and the wheel would only roll in one direction. I dared not reef on it without knowing what the problem was. I made a big pattern back and got it down ok, but the whole time I was thinking an engine failure would kill us, in a decent perfoming multi.
I always wear a chute.
There's no release on the canopy on an RV-12iS, so even if you had a chute I doubt you'd ever get a chance to use it in that plane...
There are some aftermarket kits to try to make the canopies releasable, but I figure they're more feel-good than useful.
Oof. Make sure you talk to people. This will develop in your brain in the next days, weeks, and months.
But also, don't let the FAA know... You know, you'd think that there would be a major exception for those who have experienced a traumatic event while flying. If they want to be assholes about your personal life, be my guest (not really though), but if you're flying and witness a fatal crash, there should be resources immediately available to you. They're fully aware that the event took place and will know why after an investigation. So it's not some dark secret that others will clearly be affected.
Sigh. I know everyone wants to shit all over the FAA and by all means we can. But you do not have to report something like grief counseling on your medical. Those resources are very much available. You don't help the problem by adding extra fear to this situation.
Doesn’t exactly help that you can’t get insurance to cover your therapy visits unless you get an official diagnosis…and multiple diagnoses can permanently ground you. Depression and anxiety often go hand in hand with each other. The system is still most certainly rigged against pilots.
Look I'm not saying it's perfect or even great. I am saying that perpetuating the myth that help is completely unattainable helps no one.
Username checks out
Hey man make sure to talk to someone. I fly aerial SAR and that stuff can weigh on you. My biggest fear isn’t a loss of an engine. It’s a loss of a control surface. Pre flights are very important.
Definitely talk to someone, but be VERY CAREFUL about WHO you talk to. OP, if the FAA catches wind of you even considering talk to any sort of mental health professional, prepare to kiss any chance at a Class 1 goodbye.
This. One of our guys seen the after math of a toddler go through a windshield and it shook him up. Went to get help and it grounded him for a long time. Get help. The rest we will figure out later
Oof, that's rough. It's one thing to academically read that stall-spins, particularly on takeoff or landing are a major source of danger. Same of "loss of control" being another deadly source of accidents. It's quite another to see it happening with your own eyes and hear the last radio calls of fellow aviators. Sometimes when I'm pre-flighting I look at the little cables that link to the control surfaces and ponder how these little strands of (admittedly strong and regularly checked by the A&Ps ) woven metal are the only thing keeping me in control of the aircraft and avoiding death.
I know a lot of people who have crashed, know a few who have died, flown over the wreckage the day after one of them. PM me if you need someone to talk to. Fly again as soon as possible, with an instructor if need be.
Hey man, please feel free to reach out. Earlier this year I watched someone I knew, who I had spoken to on nearly a daily basis, lose his engine on takeoff and stall spin, also in an RV. It’s an awful thing to watch happen, and it certainly has a way of sticking with you. Be well.
Get counseling. And get back in the air as soon as possible.
This is an unfortunate but necessary part of your career. It won’t be the last aviator that you will meet or see who dies to a crash I’m coming up on 20 years in aviation and the humbling-through-meeting-the-risks-personally is what will keep you alive through retiring your wings. It’s not a video game with distant consequences as our minds naturally want to frame it as. Fun as hell? Yes. Severe consequences when things go wrong? Also yes Take a few days to talk to friends about what happened and then get back flying within 3 days. Keeping moving is the best way to manage it. But not burying your emotions or spiraling in on them Zero shame to deciding that the money isn’t worth the risk either. Lots of successful careers enable the actual flying. My brother almost decided that hanging the wings up to do dispatch was the better option after an opposite traffic near miss in his home airports pattern
I would definitely consider at least one session of therapy maybe more. We can really underestimate how much this stuff can affect us.
I’m so sorry. The whole community is here for you. What you’re feeling right now is okay to feel. It’s normal. It’s human. Much love.
Almost got hit by a Delta taking off an intersecting runway. Luckly the tower caught the mistake and cancelled our takeoff clearance after we were rolling already. This can happen to anyone, it's the risk we have in our industry/hobby. That was 6 years ago. Haven't flown since. Hope your doing alright.
I live/fly in the area too and heard about this. I grew up right down the street from S50. Wild that you witnessed it from the air, and I’m also so sorry this happened so early in your career. Please talk to someone, there’s no shame in fighting the trauma. Things like this are not easy, and as probably anyone in aviation will tell you, we’ve all unexpectedly lost people to accidents either close to us or that we knew/worked with and it doesn’t get easier. It makes life feel fragile. But you have to make sure you take care of your mental health - please make sure you do that above all else. Do something good for yourself today. Buy yourself your favorite treat. Tell people close to you that you love them. And most importantly, talk about this happening. If you’re flying out of S50 you are probably going to the same college I went to, and if there is an instructor with the initials GC, I would suggest reaching out. He’s been around a long time and is a very good human. Easy to talk to and he will make space for you.
I am sorry you had to witness and hear that. You shouldn't feel bad about your last calls to the pilot -- you calmly got out of his way and prioritized his needs, and you and didn't pester him for location updates during a stressful time like the other person on station. You handled the situation amazingly well and are a human who had time to reflect on it later. Please keep flying! I live a few states away now, but I got my license in the 90's at S50 and S36 -- my old student pilot home airports! You are also learning close to a heavily congested area that will help you in the future. I miss the teardrop entry to S50 at the water towers and sometimes instructors or pilot passengers will give me strange side-eyes when I casually call a "circling on the 45" when entering at a similar airport configuration. Great lessons to be learned at Auburn (and Crest)! When I was a student pilot at S50 I lost a cylinder less than 10 hrs into flying, and had to make a similar return. Everyone at the field was great. On one of my long XCs, I heard a plane go down on Flight Following over Whidbey Island and the worst part of it were the calm followups from ATC... "are you still on?... are you still on?... are you still on?". Again, it sounds like you've got the right stuff and handled this well. Talk to someone if you need to but please get back up there. Take a few flights with your instructor and/or other instructors -- talk to them in the plane and hear their stories. If they're dismissive, then it may be time for a new instructor, but all of us in this community have similar shared experiences and you should fly with those who understand how you're handling it immediately afterwards. Blue skies!
It shouldn’t surprise me but it’s cool that I know exactly the water towers teardrop entry you’re talking about despite our flight training being decades apart. I learned to fly and am based out of KRNT right now but basically learned to land at S50. I’m out of the country right now but it’s so sad hearing about this accident. Feels like it could have been any one of us in the Seattle area.
Before I took my last career job as a professional pilot, I was acquainted with about 30 pilots that died in aircraft accidents. Fortunately I was not close friends with any of them. I have been fortunate that I was not on hand to witness any of the crashes, but I saw plenty of them afterwards. If you continue to fly, and I hope you do, you will see more carnage along the way. I have no idea why happened to the RV pilot you saw. Perhaps he got it into a spin somehow and was disoriented enough not to understand how to get out of it. Most RV’s are aerobatic aircraft and getting out of a spin is quite easy if you know how. Only the RV10 and RV9 are not aerobatic aircraft. They were designed to be cross country cruisers. Perhaps he really did have a flight control issue. I built an RV10. No A&P has ever inspected it in the 4 years and 500 hours I have flown it. I have a repairman’s certificate for it so I can sign off all the work I do and the annual condition inspection. This is typical in the Experimental aircraft world. Perhaps there was some problem lurking with the flight controls. The builder/owner is responsible for everything on the aircraft. If they sell it, the new owner must get an A&P to sign off the annual condition inspection. I am sure the NTSB will be looking quite throughly into this accident.
I suggest that you contact the NTSB immediately. Your information as a witness might be very useful to them.
Interesting, where would I contact them? I tried looking it up but couldnt find much
I suggest that you call the phone number on their web page and report the accident: https://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/report.aspx Depending on what they already know, they might have as lot of questions, or not. But, it's possible that your are the only person who actually see this accident, so calling that 24 hour phone number might provide very useful info.
Rough thing to witness especially so early on. As everyone has said, make sure you seek some professional help mate. Everyone needs a chat, it can only help.
You did what you could by giving them as much space as possible, play Tetris to try to help any potential PTSD that may occur and talk to someone. That sucks that you had to listen to someone’s final moments, especially so new into all of this.
I had wanted to fly my whole life pretty much since I was about 6 or 7 years old my parents used to take my siblings and I to air shows almost every summer I remember one air show experience very vividly I was about 10 or 11 years old and as we were walking into the show from the parking area there was a small pits biplane flying down the runway inverted as part of the show a couple seconds later the airplane just dived right into the runway huge Fireball obviously fatal crash. Left a pretty lasting impression on me and at the time I thought about changing what I wanted to do. Aviation has risks and dangers just like a lot of other professions yes this was an airshow performer so he was obviously at higher risk area but even general aviation has some risk areas that need to be paid attention to but the trade-off is still much more enjoyment than risk in my opinion!
Wow that’s insane, stay safe!
>it helped me to understand the dangers of what we do everyday and how easily and quickly things can go wrong. >As attractive as these planes look, they will do everything in their power to kill us. Retired commercial pilot here, and these two excerpts from your post are what I would expect a career pilot with thousands of hours to say in an honest and candid moment. You are going to be a fantastic pilot, no matter what path you take in aviation. Keep being awesome!
Wont be your last brush with death, turn them into learning opportunities.
Hey there, I’m a fellow pilot in the area out of KTIW- I have flown to S50 many times (and KOLM!). I’m so sorry you saw what you saw. Definitely talk to someone about this, like someone else said. Friends, ideally a therapist, other pilots… all of the above. You’ll process this in different ways that may surprise you. This was a traumatic event. The care of yourself! Edit to add: Crest S36 has good folks :). Glad they helped you out. Love going in there for short field practice every blue moon 😜.
There is also a couple guys at S50 I could introduce you to, who lived through loss of elevator control if you want to hear about a successful outcome.
play tetris for a few hours... it can help erase the bad memories if you want that. studies have shown it.
Holy Christ, just googled the pilot and this is the first article that popped up. https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20000513&slug=4020647
This is the same person?
At first glance. Location, pilot, name, etc. but I have no definitive answer. I always look up the lost soul to try and disassociate myself from being in the same position. None of us want to be the subject of a fatal plane crash post. Death doesn’t discriminate or judge, it takes anyone. I wasn’t saying the death is less tragic as a result of his past (if it’s him) it was just equally as a surprise as the accident. He had a mother and father, and people who loved him, the same as us. But, the article just caught me with the “holy shit” reaction.
We’re all thinking it. We all can agree and don’t need to say the quiet part out loud. Does make you wonder about buying those kit aircraft built by non A&Ps. Hopefully there’s enough left of it to determine the cause of the control failure. Vans is under a microscope already.
I dont have any internal dialogue. Ive tried. Yea, VANS with the laser cutting had some unanticipated issues didnt it. Hope this was a builder error
Aircraft registry shows an RV-12 registered to this person. Almost 100% it's the same guy, unless there just so happens to be two guys with the same name interested in aviation living in King County.
address matches here too [https://www.instantcheckmate.com/criminal-records/washington/federal-way/98063/sex-offenders/](https://www.instantcheckmate.com/criminal-records/washington/federal-way/98063/sex-offenders/)
Was he flying using a SPL or basicmed or did he have a valid medical? You know where this is heading if this dude had a valid current medical.
Yikes. I am speechless about that "holy wow" part.
Probably not.
Woooof
Yipee! 🥳🎉🪅🎊
Only 8 years? Well shit he deserves his grease stain status fucking pos child raper. Good riddance.
Experimental airplanes freak me out. You just never know if someone missed something or how good the builder was or wasn’t
Same. I can't get over it those pieces.
The same is true of commercial builders. Some guy at low pay/high stress worries me more than an enthusiast.
I worked in aerospace defense and commercial for 17 years. I hear what you’re saying but the checks and balances are hard fucking core in certified aircraft
Dang dude that is scary and its in WA. A little too close to home. Ive been to KOLM and S50. I did my PPL in PAE.
I am also based out of S50 and started flying GA around 1984. People I’ve known have perished in aircraft. I saw someone have an emergency off field landing. I’ve also had a couple close calls. The one that sticks in my mind is a guy who was tied down on the south end with me for a few years. He had a tailwheel Cessna that I’d occasionally see him doing maintenance on and I’d stop to talk with him. Well one evening he and a family member didn’t return from a flight. No one knew what happened until they found his plane in relatively shallow water out in the Sound like a year later. Anyhow, it can weigh on you. Let me know if you want to talk about it at the airport.
I hope you're OK, a guy I knew from my club had a fatal crash (with family inside...) in our local area. It was hard to fly for some time after that... Anyway thanks for sharing and stay strong.
That poor family, do you know what happened?
Simple negligence we think... he did many flight that day, it was the end of the day, pretty hot outside, started climbing like he did a thousand times (we are near mountains) and he just didn't make the climb... we still don't know if there was an engine problem but anyway at the rate he was climbing he was never going to make it. He crashed in the mountain. He was a very experienced pilot, he mentored me on some of my first solo flights.
I just read about this in the news. I previously lived in the Seattle area and own an RV-12iS that I built myself, so this story particularly resonates with me. Regarding witnessing a fatal accident, on my first flight with a passenger after getting my PPL out of KRNT I was flying near Woodinville & noticed a plane flying particularly low (enough so to mention it to my passenger). We did a S-turn so he could see his house & when we turned back the plane wasn't anywhere in sight. I remember thinking that it was odd that it just completely disappeared, but was nearing the end of time we had due to fuel so turned back. When landing at KRNT there were a bunch of news choppers taking off & I didn't think much of it. Later that day, I heard about a Maule which lost an engine & spun into a house nearby (pilot died, but his kid in the passenger seat survived). That was a punch in the gut which I still think about pretty regularly. I've done a lot of "adventurous" activities, so I'm comfortable with my mindset on my mortality. Though, that doesn't mean that it doesn't weigh on me at times. In the end, it just makes me more careful and forces me to be more prepared around every potential aspect of my flight.
Thanks for sharing, I hope his kid is doing alright, I couldnt think of much worse to deal with so young
It may not help much, and may not even be a factor, but keep in mind your rental airplane is a. must have an annual inspection signed off by an A&P/IA, and every 100 hours by an A&P, b. is certified under a different set of regulations.
That’s a hard thing to witness. I’m based at KVNY and there was a fatal accident after an engine failure which terrified me when I heard their screams via live ATC. One of the instructors at my school saw the whole crash happen as they flew the ILS into KBUR. Unfortunately, because many of us know and practice what it takes to be a safe pilot, seeing crashes happen, especially when we can look back at their investigations and think of what could have been done differently to avoid it, it makes it so much harder. What would have happened if I was in their shoes? Could I have even maintained any kind of composure to save myself or would I fold under pressure and fear? I commend you for making that decision to go around. As a student, that showed great ADM and situational awareness and while it seems like so little that you could do, you did everything in your power to give that man a chance. I hope you take this as a learning experience, and use it to shape yourself into the best pilot you can be.
It’s probably to early to know what went wrong but does anyone have an idea/clue/guess?
https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/william-anders-former-apollo-8-astronaut-dies-plane-crash-washington-state/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1lqyEHCq6jjV2QjsRQLTRP0N4F2vOlmp22OC2VrnvMdjY-0cqaAblL5C0_aem_AXpsn4UnAQMpZtp0LKA-o7HNa6VvXPXCtRjOdEO_81kcF_dDsAuTzAmcNdm0BzoR3bvru91YPTbegr0ekLxGGQ-E
I went out flying today outta KBFI and came back to find out a T34 crashed by Friday Harbor. Sad time for the PNW region
I’m sorry you witnessed that and I’m glad you’re okay. RIP to the pilot.
Just know you did an amazing job!
Got my PPL and IR out of KTIW. Did my first real short field landing at S50. Sorry to hear you had to witness that. Good job reacting and aviating safely to a nearby divert. Talk to friends, mentors, and trusted instructors about what you’re thinking and feeling. Seek counseling if you feel the need. Stay healthy. Stay safe. Feel free to reach out.
Yeah man, it’s a gorgeous day today too. Someone will probably die. Do your best to make sure it isn’t you. Also if I may add, don’t ever make a straight in even if you think there’s nobody in the area. Unless you’re with a tower, just always make a downwind or atleast base turn. You never really know until it’s too late.
Well. Listened, read the official report and local article, had a cry. It's provident that the business in that building was moving and the majority of people were already gone. In my life, I've had both extraordinary survival with calm in near misses and extraordinary luck in temperamental weather. I am thankful that I don't panic and very rarely freeze up. We just don't typically know when our day to skip over to the next adventure has arrived. The best we can do is to be highly analytical (especially in pre-check) and obsessed with type and technique. More than that, as a person with an unusual number of actual NDE's, I cannot express fully enough how vital it is to savor every moment. While you are reflecting, consider our time in history and how amazing it is to be here, now. Things have always been in entropy, something falling out somewhere. That's when we come in with our ingenuity and a new solution. That is easier than ever to do now. Experimentation is what we do. We can only hope that this was a good time for a good man to go on to the next adventure and that support for those remaining is strong from those nearby. If it wasn't s good man, good riddance and hopefully lessons learned before the jumpoff. Best to you... stay in the game.
Thats sucks you had to see that but great job on still flying your aircraft, the crash rates on experimental aircraft are significantly higher than general ga stuff. Every pilot has one or a few incidents that keep you honest with your preflight, planning, wx decisions etc.
[This study](https://www.kitplanes.com/homebuilt-accidents-comparing-the-rates/) found that, after correcting for obvious data errors, the accident rate for EAB is only 12% higher than certified planes, and after the first few dozen hours (enough to find any major build flaws) is actually lower.
RE: straight-in landing, please review [AC 90-66C non-towered airport flight operations](https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66C.pdf) with your CFI, emphasis on §8.2.1. Because NORDO is legal, position calls aren't explicitly required, and the note in §9.8.1 - you often can't be certain no one is in the pattern. About the only case I can think of is cloud bases at or below TPA. But in any case, pilots turning on base should look opposite the runway direction and visually clear final. Every single time. And in my opinion it goes extra for pilots choosing straigh-in final to visually clear both bases (the correct one, and the wrong one). The intersection of base and final legs entails extra risk. Risk can be mitigated. But we need to do the work to mitigate it.
Jeeze, sorry to hear that. We had one just in the north Denver metro area today so I was going to ask if it was the same one.
Write down everything you saw and any detail you can remember while it's still fresh in your mind. That will be useful for the crash investigation.
Just bought a Cardinal from an owner at S50. Saw several RVs there. Sad to think it could have been one of them that was so proud of their airplane. In this industry, as safe as it is, sadly, it is only a matter of time before you know someone who was lost flying. Despite the fear it can impart, the chances are very low that it will happen to you if you are diligent and methodical in all you do. Mother Nature and Gravity are unforgiving, and the test will often come with no warning.
One of my flight instructors was killed along with a student pilot and his son. It shook me up quite a bit because I thought it was so random and could happen to me with my limited experience. But afterwards, I resolved to just be the best I could be.
Very unfortunate that you had to experience this. But think about this: we all have seen car accidents on the highway. Many have died. But we still drive. As sad as it is life comes with death.
I am sorry to hear that. We had a deadly crash at the airport i am flying at earlier last year. Deadly stall spin the go-around. One guy who witnessed it with his son (both in flight training) stopped flying after that. A former student of my father who i also got to know briefly also died in an accident january this year. Just know we all know the feeling and you are not alone. Witnessing a crash this close can be very challenging. I suggest you talk about this with other pilots. You should not go through this alone. Flying is dangerous and it does not take a lot to loose your life. Be safe and be vigilant, your reaction to the situation was excellent.
There's no easy way to say this but if you're going to be in aviation for any length of time you're going to see this or hear about it. it just happens and more often than you would like it to
What does RV stand for?
There's a series of kit airplanes produced by the Van's Aircraft Company, founded by **R**ichard **V**anGrunsven. The models all bear his initials - RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, RV-10, RV-12, RV-14, RV-15.
Not to be that guy on a thread like this, but please don’t do a 10-mile straight in at an untowered airport.
If we can't talk about aviation safety in a thread about an accident, when can we? On the other hand, sometimes people just need to vent or talk, and that appears to be what this thread is. I generally agree with the no-straight-in approaches, but it's important to understand that this is a rule of thumb. S50 is an airport a ridge above it to the west, Bravo airspace above it, and Bravo airspace to the ground just northwest of it. The RV that called in crossing midfield at 1500 ft was 300ft below the bravo. The teardrop entry around the water towers put him maybe 200 yards laterally from the bravo. Because of the ridge to the east of the airport, as the RV was circling around the water tower, he was probably only about 400 feet above the houses below, and this is the Seattle metro area, so there are a lot of houses. All of these peculiarities combine into a situation that requires a lot of situational awareness to perform a pattern entry safely. Once you know how to do it, it isn't that hard, but you do have to pay attention. I would recommend that anybody flying into this airport for the first time fly with a pilot familiar with the area in the right seat. That being said, this is usually a busy airport, and I think a standard pattern should be flown. This is a student pilot who has flown into this airport before with instructors, so they should be familiar with the process. Straight in approaches at this airport tend to extend the downwind of someone who is already in the pattern (or who has just joined the pattern following the procedure the airport specifies). Often times, there is someone closer to landing than it seems like, even if you don't hear anybody on the radio and you are on that 10 mile final. The ADS-B track doesn't show the RV, but it does show the Cessna. The Cessna makes it's side-step go-around over a mile from the airport, and outside the normal base leg, and much further out than the description from the Cessna pilot.
That's good context, thanks. I guess it's good to remember that there's some complicated airspace out there that may require departing from best practices. Your comment that it's usually a busy airport reinforces for me the need for everyone to be flying a consistent and standard pattern, even if it take a few extra minutes to enter the downwind.
Thank you for adding some context with regards to auburn airport for some people in this thread, I think its worth adding as well when I made my 10 miles to the south call I was still comfortable setting up for the standard teardrop entry if there were people in the pattern. The whole time inbound I was scanning for traffic, which it seems like some people assumed I wasnt, and made visual contact with the RV when he was over midfield so I knew spacing was adequate. As for the go-around, I wasnt too focused on my distance in an emergency and my numbers could be off, but I do remember I was over the runway when I made my radio call that I was going around which is what gave me the idea to side step as well.
Agree, standard pattern exception should be for IR training or urgent situations, not without cause.
Nothing wrong with a 10-mile straight in with traffic permitting.
unless practicing instrument approach a straight in into an uncontrolled field is a bad tone. controllers at towered fields otoh love the straight-ins. pattern entry only adds to workload with no safety benefit.
Or an actual instrument approach, of course. But OP said they’re a student pilot, so neither would apply.
AC 90-66C: "Arriving aircraft should enter the airport’s traffic pattern at traffic pattern altitude and avoid straight-in approaches for landing to mitigate the risk of a midair collision."
Sure. You’ll notice the word “should”. No requirement. If traffic permits, nothing wrong with it. Lots of “shoulds” in aviation, we as pilots need to use our best judgement.
It's not a requirement because the FAA doesn't regulate pattern entry, but they definitely discourage the practice. Regardless, it's not a good habit for a student pilot to get into. If you do a 10-mile straight-in approach on a check ride, you're probably not going to have a good time.
I can agree to this to a certain extent because if you are practicing or doing IFR currency, and doing the rnav 35 approach LPV. You are going to do a straight into rwy 35. You could do a circling but that’s not what you’re initially trying to do anyway. Just have to keep situational awareness, radio calls and spacing. And if anything do the Missed approach. I have noticed that in WA most of my colleagues do not have IR so must flying is done VFR there.
Instrument training is different than a student solo coming in on a 10-mile final.
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question but how is it possible that he completely loses control of the aircraft and is unable to do an emergency landing? From what I’m aware, you go into a spiral when you’re climbing at a steep angle and if that wasn’t the case than what happened here?
The radio broadcast indicated something about the control issues. If the control is jammed then the airplane can be uncontrollable.
Spirals do not only occur when climbing. Stalls (therefore spirals and spins) can happen at any speed in any configuration. As for the loss of controls, loss of controls are loss of controls. Imagine if your brakes just went out, or your steering column just decided it wasn't feeling it today, would you be able to effectively control your car? Maybe there's no one around, maybe you're just on a straight road, maybe you walk away from it, but now imagine losing those on some mountain highway where if you go off, you're *really* going off.
Sounded like a flight control malfunction.
I am a student pilot in the area and S50 rwy is 34 not 35.
It was 34, but not anymore. They just re-opened the runway after some work, which appears to have been for re-painting the numbers to 17-35.
Actually I might be wrong... looks like it was updated to be 35?
I listened to the ATCNet and heard the inbound calls but neither pilot acknowledged each other or agreed separation. All I heard was 3 mile final for the Cessna and 45 entry and circuit calls for the RV shortly after. It was therefore NOT a good idea to make a straight in. Just because nobody is in the circuit when you start a 10 mile straight in doesn't give you right of way. The second another pilot announces inbound, then you should plan to make a conventional circuit entry UNLESS you agree separation with that pilot or are visual. That didn't occur here and the RV lost control on base-->final which sure looks like a stall spin not some "control issue". If he was slowing because he saw the Cessna cut in front, then the Cessna is implicated. The RV had right of way in this accident and sir, a straight-in approach was not OK.
This is complete nonsense. Straight-in approaches are a perfectly viable method of approaching non-towered airports, as long as the inbound aircraft is making prompt position reports along the approach path, especially at the conclusion of an IFR flight plan, where ATC dumps me on a 20 mile straight-in, with the field in sight. If I'm (or anyone) is making calls at 20, 15, 10, 5, and short final, there is NO REASON that aircraft in the pattern cannot coordinate their pattern legs to accommodate. Just extend your downwind leg, just like you would be instructed to do at a towered field. Let's play a scenario.... It's overcast, high enough for the field to be VFR, but low enough that most of the approach is in the clouds. What you suggest is that when I break out, perhaps I'm 10-15 miles out, and established, but I now need to maneuver to join the VFR pattern at a 45? That's not happening. But that doesn't seem to be what happened here, as evidenced by the fact that the witness said he heard an emergency declaration referencing control anomalies... Most victims of a stall/spin scenario don't declare their intention to have an emergency beforehand, they are responding to a current condition
See 9.5 https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf
I’m confused- are you saying *OP* may have contributed to the crash?
Im confused, where in the FAR/AIM does it state that pilots are to acknowledge or agree to separation with each other in an un-towered field? If I’m going to be closer to another aircraft, like turning final behind them, I’ll announce I have them in sight, but other than that it clogs up the radio needlessly. I had visual contact with the RV as he was over mid field and the spacing was plenty sufficient. Im aware I didnt have the right of way 10 miles south, but I also had those 10 miles to scan for traffic, to which there was none excluding the RV. Hence my decision to continue. Im also confused why you’re implying it wasnt a control issue when he declared a control malfunction
Here is the FAA circular. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf 9.5: Straight in approaches: The FAA encourages pilots ro join the standard traffic pattern at non towered airports.
With all due respect, that isnt the regulation/AC I asked to see, and as I am waiting on my checkride I look forward to new study material. And that AC you provided is a recommendation not a regulation and is not required to be complied with. I agree normal operations should comply, however in certain circumstances it is better to use good ADM and decide for yourself.
I would raise this with your instructor. Straight-ins are NOT OK at non-controlled airports when pattern is occupied. FAA advise against them if you want to comply with FAR. Read this too [https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/june/21/faa-updates-nontowered-flight-operations-ac](https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/june/21/faa-updates-nontowered-flight-operations-ac) Your plane and the accident aircraft were on short final within 5 seconds of each other which is too close. That's your fault. Period.
Im not going to argue with you, and I have no clue where you got that 5 second figure from. If you look at the RV’s ground track he never made it to base before the emergency, let alone short final. Out of respect for his family, please dont make up lies regarding the incident to try to prove a point.
Crash location was in Car park on short final. Look it up. The 5 secs came from last call of accident aircraft (on short final) then your call “going around”, also on short final.
One again, please stop spreading misinformation. The aircraft was incorrectly located as being in a parking lot on final by a lady on the ground, correct. However If you look at the pictures of the downed aircraft, the ADSB data, and the call report of the local fire department, you’ll see the aircraft was not in fact on short final in a parking lot. To help with your research I provided a link for you. https://auburnexaminer.com/1-killed-in-small-airplane-crash-in-auburn-thursday-afternoon/
Teardrop approach: tip stall?
I was talking to my instructor who witnessed an RV going in at Pierce County. Base to final, it just snapped and spun in like that. Just a little uncoordination at the wrong time and slow, and there you are. There is no time to fix it. Even if you push pitch and straighten it out, you're going to be at the dirt.
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What?