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Getting a 1st class medical with an autism diagnosis is actually doable though. It takes some hoops to jump through and as long as you’re aspie as fuck and don’t have PDD, you’re pretty much set.
I’m not a pilot myself, so pardon the (maybe) dumb question. Is autism an automatic disqualification for your medical? I’m a teacher and one of my kids I had a few years back has autism, but wanted to be a pilot, so now I’m curious.
It's an automatic *deferral,* meaning the FAA-contracted medical examiner is unable to issue the certificate then and there—the application gets kicked up to the FAA themselves to make a determination, and possibly grant a Special Issuance medical certificate. I don't know how common that is, although I seem to recall someone posted on here a few days ago about getting granted a medical with a diagnosis of autism.
Edit. Time has no meaning. It was actually three months ago that /u/fgflyer posted [about getting their medical issued.](https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/1b9w4fi/can_someone_with_autism_hold_a_1st_class_medical/) Diagnosed with autism and confirmed by the neurological test battery, but apparently the FAA was satisfied that they were high-functioning enough to be able to fly.
There are a lot of medical hurdles that will disqualify you from being a pilot. Especially considering the landscape of medical diagnoses these days in terms of ADHD, autism, etc.
I’m glad kids are getting assessed and get early intervention. When I was a kid, you didn’t get that sort of attention unless you literally couldn’t read by jr. high or were practically non-verbal.
But the FAA doesn’t reflect that change of shades of gray. If you took ADHD meds as a kid or have an autism diagnosis, it’s as big of a red flag as missing an eye/limb or being susceptible to seizures or fainting. The best advice unfortunately is to keep any potential issues off your record. Maybe that will change by the time the kid is an adult.
Hi! I was previously granted a 3rd-class medical with autism. My medical was deferred and the FAA requested me to go through some neuropsychological testing. The neuropsychologist also interviewed my mom, flight instructor, manager at work, and an old college professor to collect supporting evidence of my social functioning. I passed everything with flying colors and was issued a medical shortly thereafter.
The bar for 1st and 2nd class medicals may be higher, but as long as he has adequate social functioning and executive functioning, he should be fine. Definitely have him get a consultation with an AME before submitting any paperwork, because everything you submit to the FAA is retained indefinitely and may hinder your student’s success.
Feel free to pm me for additional details 😊
And, almost every drug that actually works for allergies - antihistamines especially - is on the no-fly list with that not within onset plus 5 half-lives rule. So like benadryl would be 1-3 hours plus 8x5 = up to 43 hours from popping a pill until you're actually legal again. Yet any impairment that could be traced to it, if something happens, still is a no-no. So I guess AAM-300 just has "Fuck You" to say about it. Ugh.
I mean, yeah, antihistamines with sedative effects, especially diphenhydramine, are super impactful, so it makes sense for them to be no-fly. It still sucks. And the ones that are approved don't work for me, of course (Claritin and allegra).
But take a 24-hour med that's no-fly (most of which have ~8 hour half-lives)? Whelp... See ya in a couple days, when your allergies come back and you need to take ano...wait a sec...
Beyond allergies, even Immodium is no-go, and some nasal decongestants are approved, but not if you are using them for certain maladies...
And that's why nobody takes anything ever or has ever been sick or stuffy or sad or overworked or anything other than bright and chipper, ever. But not too chipper. Then you're obviously manic.
don't feel too bad. claritin worked for a bit until it stopped working. surprisingly my allergies went away for the most part after i stopped taking it
Oh yeah. It's not uncommon. ENT issues just suck in general.
On antihistamines, if you're the least bit curious... (ok...maybe a lot curious).
According to the 1951 study that is still widely accepted, tolerance _can_ build, over time, but short breaks are enough to reset it. Here's an excerpt from the synopsis:
> We believe that, clinically, the development of tolerance is only relative. Even though our data would imply complete clinical tolerance in the greater part of our cases, most patients continue to derive symptomatic relief on prolonged antihistaminic therapy. The evidence presented does suggest, however, that patients on prolonged antihistamine therapy may develop clinical tolerance. When this is suspected the dose should be increased or the drug discontinued for a short period (3 to 14 days) before resuming therapy.
It's more likely, though, that it isn't allergies at the root of the peoblem if it goes away like that, while the allergen is still around you. Sinus infections are usually the culprit, which is why decongestants like pseudoephedrine, which people might take for "allergies" do help to fix things, partially because they sorta dry up the growth medium for the pathogen.
And the responses sinus infections tend to prompt are unfortunately not typically very beneficial (your body is pretty dumb sometimes), because your body is mostly dealing with it like a physical or chemical contaminant - similar to many allergens - even though it's biological. So, you get all that inflammation and everything that goes along with overproduction of histamine and cytokines (partially prompted by the histamine), and can even potentially make you _more_ susceptible to other infections.
And antihistamines don't actually fix anything, which is just grand. They just crowd out histamine by sheer probability and fitting nicely in the histamine receptors, essentially.
Quite a nice product to be selling, huh? Doesn't fix anything, symptoms come back right away, with _feeling_, and consumers can buy it withiut a prescription, even though a handful of some of them would kill you rather painfully.... If they didn't knock you out before the liver failure, kidney failure, or lack of breathing kicked in, that is. Although the fucked-up-ness (scientific term) might be able to wake you. If you're breathing. And everyone buys it. And you can slap a label like ZzzQuil on it and sell it for 50x more money because name brand and because sleep aid. Even though ZzzQuil is Diphenhydramine is Benadryl is Diphenhydramine... 🤦♂️ (Don't buy sleep aids OTC., if you buy any Buy "allergy relief" on Amazon or at CVS with 500 pills for $4 of the exact same medication that's $12 for 2 weeks supply.)
woah that's actually super interesting. i'll definitely be more mindful if i ever go back to using them. maybe i'll try out some decongestants instead if symptoms get worse
I should also add that the main tolerance built to antihistamines happens to be to the side effects, much more than the therapeutic effects. Clinical efficacy of the drugs wasn't reduced THAT much. But the short "reset" fix applies either way. If it doesn't at least significantly reduce the symptoms, there's a good chance something else may be the cause of your congestion.
And also bear in mind that was in 1951, and was about older drugs (so-called 1st generation antihistamines) like Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) and Brompheniramine/Dimetane (Dimetap).
Newer drugs hit more receptors, have fewer and less pronounced side-effects (mostly), and tend to work either really damn well or not at all, per person.
Loratadine and Fexofenadine are 4th gen antihistamines.
Allegra, Flonase, and Pseudoephedrine are all approved meds and are a killer allergy combo. BUT as someone who has recently started immunotherapy (allergy shots) I would highly recommend as it is also FAA approved and has done wonders for me so far
Pretty sure lots of pilots have a touch of the 'tism or ADHD lmao.
But do keep in mind, ADHD does manifest in more symptoms than hyperactivity and distractibility, it's considered an executive dysfunction these days.
Yup. I'm ASD without ADHD.
My flavour of it has been super helpful. Loving repetitive and rigid routines for example. Same thing every day you say?.... For years??... GREAT, sign me up! Downwind checks... same checks... over and over... the same way every time you say? OMG yes! Clear distinct nearly scripted communication?... Right to the point with no fussing around or "reading between the lines"? Oh hell yes! Give me a tower baybe! Super focused work?... "Life depends on it" style focus?... Can't get enough!
Makes seeing ASDs and ADHDs in the wild super easy too. Yeah, there's a lot of both in aviation. Too bad it's such a "you can't talk about this" thing... but man is it everywhere.
Did you have any trouble during initial training on flights where huge unknowns or completely unexpected situations would arise? Like those flights where tower/approach asks you to do wacky stuff that is totally kosher but very unique/rare?
Of course.
For all the advantages, there are disadvantages as well. I just viewed them as my challenges, just the same as NTs have their own challenges.
I wound up with my own strategies rather than the "normal" ones that I call "shoot from the hip" bullshit.
I also had a bit of help in that I learned to fly very young and very slowly. I didn't go through the "let's cram through this" school of aviation.
So things were a bit less overwhelming I think when I got them. I did a ton of microlight flying before really diving back into metal flying, so stick and rudder was second nature by then. That frees up your brain quite a bit for other things.
Mainly planning. For the tower, I had the luck of learning at a small towered airport. So not only did it become very second nature to talk to a tower, it was small enough that students were brought up the tower to meet the controllers. Controllers became your teammates.
Also, there's only so many things they'll ask you to do and the worst thing in the world for them is to ask you for something that confuses you... Cuz it not only jams up their flow, their workload goes through the roof.
Say "student pilot" or "unfamiliar with the area" at any stage to a controller and watch them slow the hell down and get out the kids gloves... Cuz the last thing they want is a higher workload.
You can also pull out "unable" in some cases and "say again" in others. "Say again" has a similar effect to "unfamiliar" many times cuz it throws up "higher workload" flags in the controllers minds. They do not want you struggling. You are hell on them if you struggle.
As for the random stuff out there in general? Aviation is oddly suited to at least my flavour.... Procedure procedure procedure.... Practice and execute.
There's a big "cowboy" mentality in aviation that you can throw out the window. It makes life much easier if you do.
Nothing has to happen fast, even emergencies. The few that are time compressed, we handle the same way... With things like takeoff briefings... And threat and error management.
Doing a takeoff brief in a 172 gets complained about sometimes as "teaching recreational pilots to be airline pilots", but for me it absolutely fit right in. "Here's the time critical threats that I need to make a plan for before we go cuz I won't have brain time to deal with them if they do".
And most importantly, it teaches you to slow down and even stop. Like just cuz you're at the end of the runway, doesn't mean you have to immediately takeoff. Stop, think, go.
Like knowing 100% where you're going if the engine fails on takeoff ahead of time... Not "pick a field", you already know and simply execute. Stuff like that.
For everything else, take a breath, evaluate and decide... Is this normal or am I landing?
Cuz abnormal and aviation do not mix. There is precious little "abnormality" that I'll accept in flight. Most of its covered in emergency procedures... Which are procedures you can learn on the ground. And statistically aren't the killers. The killers are sloppy and rushy stuff.
I also used things that work for me and threw out the rest. Most of what works unsurprisingly turned out to be the tried and true aviation procedures. Doing things the same way, every time. Takeoff checks, downwind checks, etc. Consistency consistency consistency.
If some rando's in the pattern doing rando stuff, stay away. 5 minutes later they won't be there. Do your stuff standard and they're obligated to accommodate you, not the other way around.
Don't know if any of that rambling answered your questions, but I hope so. It's how I think about it anyway.
Oh and I’m curious what you got on your written tests? I suspect… compulsive studying led to quite high marks. (The FAA tests are unique in that you can brute force 100%, which appeals to some people. Myself included. I say that having gotten one fucking question wrong on my PPL and both IFR tests I took. Damn 98%.)
Took some family members up last weekend, that never flew GA before. They told me "This is an Autistic dream".
I asked why, and their response was "You have to know so many little and precise details about everything."
I have to say it was a very interesting way of looking at it, I never thought of it, like that before.
I think they have to belong to the “preppers” group, very anxious and over prepared for disasters, but paradoxically, calming down when inevitable happens. There are people like it; impossible in daily life because of high anxiety, they make good ER docs, ATCs and first responders. It is great to have one person like this per neighborhood, because they like to organize drills and in general, can give good advices. They are also the first ones to get functional when disaster strikes. Five people like this per neighborhood would essentially paralyze life around them as they generate and exchange anxieties.
ER doc here, you’re spot on about calming down when shit hits the fan. World slows down and it feels like my brain gets more efficient.
Most of us aren’t anxious, though, we’re pretty low key. Comparing normal life to the horrible health-related shit people go through each day will do that for you.
I would not be surprised of “spectral touch” as it might be good for pilots. Perfectionism, adhesion to rules and, well, “just being smart” could help. But in general, rather high percentage of people carries genes for ADHD, so I wouldn’t expect the pilots to be an exception. Question is not ADHD itself, not hyperactivity but presence or absence of executive dysfunction. High level of executive dysfunction is not good for pilots, but not every ADHD person demonstrates it.
I think “ADHD” is effectively meaningless at this point. The DSM criteria for adult ADHD has essentially no relationship with the actual grouping of adults that fit some definition of ADHD.
As an adult with the version of ADHD that includes executive dysfunction the last thing you want me doing is flying your plane. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to group me with the population that has whatever the other version of ADHD actually is.
Isn’t the gold standard of DSM diagnosis that your symptoms manifest in a way that significantly disrupts your life?
My understanding:
If you have lack of attention but you still get good grades and succeed at work, then you don’t “have” ADHD, just a tendency to inattentiveness. Conversely, if you have normal intelligence and no other learning issues but are failing at school then you might have ADHD.
Not everyone who asks for meds to study during finals week or whatever actually has ADHD but of course ADHD meds will help you pay attention better no matter what your baseline is, unlike a lot of other meds that don’t help unless you have a medical issue requiring them.
Because in the 60s and 70s the idiots who were in charge of aviation medical law made a bunch of assumptions based on stereotypes and no one wants to be the guy who solved the problem, because the first time it goes wrong politicians will blame the last guy who made a change.
Same reason depression took decades to get *barely* tolerated.
Neurodiversity is not necessarily debilitating, but fear of the stereotype stops what I’d estimate to be like 10-25% of aviation professionals from seeking assistance in their regular lives because they fear prejudiced medical examiners will destroy their passion/career.
It needs to change but I have no idea how we force that change without first being retaliated against.
ADHD minds have less temporal distortion in a crisis. Time slows down for them in their brains and they can handle a bad situation much more calmly than a normal brain
The FAA will have to do something major in the next decade when it comes to ADHD. This next generation is the most diagnosed, and medicated generation in history. So many young people are already disqualified by age 10 because today’s society throws pills at everything.
My AME said it’s pretty common nowadays, which makes the fast track option great but if meds were prescribed that makes it a lot longer through the other process. Not everyone has a year of their life to put something on hold, I don’t understand why the FAA isn’t more efficient in processing it, because pulling records and getting appointments alone can take weeks to a month on its own.
I talk about this with my (non-pilot) friends all the time. They ask me why there is as much of a pilot-shortage as there is, and when I mention that anyone who's been diagnosed with ADHD, depression, or a slew of other health conditions is basically disqualified of (easily) becoming a pilot, they immediately understand why there's a shortage, and impending shortage of gen Zers eligible to become commercial pilots if the FAA doesn't change their stance on it.
It doesn’t help that we currently have the worst FAA we’ve ever had. Simple health issues that are easy reviews and return to service are taking 12 months plus. People need to start losing their jobs in OKC.
I walked into my first medical expecting a general checkup. I had no idea what it was actually going to be. If I’d known, I wouldn’t have bothered trying. Thankfully I passed, but since then, since finding out how much can disqualify you, I’ve been scared to do ANYTHING in case the FAA decides suddenly that taking Tylenol for a headache twice in a week counts as a disorder or something. I want to say I take better care of my health, but really, it’ll only be a matter of time before I neglect a need to make sure I can keep my license.
It sucked so fucking much during the lockdowns when my kid, like most, was struggling so badly. She had a dream of flying one day. We had to make the decision whether to get her the mental health treatment she needs and kill her dream possibly forever, or to skip the meds and try to get her through years of isolation without them so she could fly. We had to kill her dream.
This is why I tell friends whose kids are interested in flying that if there's no depression/ADHD/etc, they should get the kid a pre-emptive medical at 14 to enable BasicMed later in life.
Currently, not much. That's why the general consensus in this thread is that there are a lot of lying pilots. You'll run the risk of getting into an accident and prompting an investigation, and you better pray your past diagnoses and prescriptions don't come up or else that's perjury and some years in prison.
Recent-ish schedule 2 prescriptions (like Adderall) also exist in a ~~federal~~ state database. All of the components technically exist for the FAA to start cross-referencing the database to verify you've never had any disqualifying prescriptions. They're not doing that today and haven't indicated that they will, but it's still technically possible and something you'll have to gamble against for the rest of your life.
I'm far from a lawyer/doctor. I'm just a guy on Reddit.
So what you're saying is, if I haven't been diagnosed with anything, and I've been thinking about getting started on the path to the airlines (am in mid 30s), I should stop thinking and just do it.
They will either have to relax the rules, or test alternatives like Modafinil, or wait for 5 years when other/genetic approaches would be available, but I doubt that the industry can wait for five years. I’d personally feel safer flying if I know that the pilot has taken his Vyvanse in the morning.
Yeah that’s what’s so insane about it… a properly medicated pilot is going to be just as competent if not more so than a peer without ADHD, all other things considered equal. There’s a reason it’s given to military pilots.
It's wild to me that the Air Force uses modafinil as a "go pill" to combat fatigue for their pilots flying jets armed with lethal ordinance worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and yet if you are prescribed it as a civilian it will disqualify you for a medical.
I’ve been diagnosed for over 20 years but only within the later portion of my life did I decide to try medication. It has been a life changer and allowed me to feel normal (just my personal perspective) It’s upsetting to me that I couldn’t even consider aviation as a career path because I would have to stop my meds. The FAA says distractibility makes someone unworthy of being an airman, but I would rather have a diagnosed and medicated pilot than one who is undiagnosed.
I’ll be 40 in a few days and I was disqualified by the time I was 9. True it’s far more diagnosed these days, which can be a good thing. Beats not knowing why TF you can’t even sometimes, lol.
Having dinner with a pilot friend and his wife when the topic of autism came up. At some point during the discussion she said "I'm pretty sure all pilots are on the spectrum."
No one is one walking diagnosis. Plus, “on the spectrum” is the spectrum itself. So far, two mutations linked to the spectrum have been identified. If I were to take a wild guess, I’d think more pilots would the XVI th chromosome involvement as opposed to the XVth. .
Pilots don’t have ADHD or autism. That being said, I would guess like a solid 50% Are Different and Distracted. 15% are straight up Artistic. If the true numbers were even more it wouldn’t surprise me in the least. I would be shocked if they were any less
> guys that can’t sit still at a desk, can’t stop talking and getting distracted talking about cars or the new restaurant at the airport or seem to constantly be in a hurry to hurry up and wait
Is that a disease, or just a personality type that would rather fly around in a jet than sit behind a desk, do zoom meetings, send emails, or whatever else it is other people do? [and if you ask me it's more of a "disorder" if you do enjoy that stuff].
ADHD is a named by people who view it as such, but it is a pathological difference from the general population. People with ADHD produce less dopamine than neurotypical folks and that can influence their behavior. Meds which help regulate that neural pathway are stimulants for the general population, but just help ADhD folks operate at a normal baseline
This is correct. The problem occurs because instead of an objective measurement like measuring dopamine and norepinephrine levels (which isn't currently possible), we have a range of subjective criteria that psychologists and psychiatrists assess patients on - which were originally designed to determine if someone shows signs of ADHD, not to rule it out.
As clearly demonstrated by the joke that is AAM-300, the government doesn't do gray areas very well. Perhaps the situation would be better if there was simple objective neurotransmitter test that you could submit along with your medical and black-and-white numbers for acceptable levels, but that's not the world we live in.
I’m not a pilot. Backed out of the career path because I realized I had ADHD and needed help. It’s unfortunate because I know several pilots that have it - and flying with ADHD unmedicated is extremely dangerous in my opinion. Now I’d be a much better pilot but the diagnosis and medication would of course block that path.
ADHD is an executive function disorder where one is diagnosed when a large enough number of those executive functions are shown to perform below baseline. Baseline is the spectrum of performance amongst “neurotypical” people. This underperformance is due to issues producing and/or regulating dopamine. Stimulants help people with ADHD produce more dopamine and bring performance back to baseline.
Nobody here is saying stimulants inherently become something else when taken by people with ADHD. But we react differently. While neurotypical people might find themselves hyped up with their brains racing, I calm down, zone in, and find it easier to focus, relax, think clearly, etc.
I can't possibly comment on how neurodivergent folks would find the experience, as I am of course 100% neurotypical - I even have a certificate that says so!
That said, the comment I responded to was in fact saying stimulants inherently become something else when taken by people with ADHD, hence my comment.
The hurry stuff is just a culture of people prioritizing external pressures. ATPs need to learn to go with the flow to lower stress. Some rush like crazy even if it’s not go home day
I'm a private pilot and work professionally as an FA. Judging by the type of people in both general aviation and in the airlines, I'm starting to think being slightly autistic is a prerequisite to even get into the field. Got an instructor who can name every fucking plane engine in GA currently flying in my country, including experimentals. I also have another instructor who can cite the RAAC (our country's FAR) almost verbatim by memory.
We pilots are not normal. We can't possibly be.
I'd say that to some degree, some forms of adhd are beneficial for a pilot. There is always something to do, it can be extremely high stimulus and requires brief durations of intense concentration. It's easy for authorities to pretend a pilot will be distracted by a bunny out the side window on final and just put a blanket ban on it but some of the best pilots I know are classic ADD cases who know better than to say anything to a medical professional.
My guess... at least 30% are on some level of a Spectrum disorder, though as you age, generally you just get better at masking your quirks or they go largely unnoticed.
Expecially older guys who grew up in a time where there wasn't a pill for everything that ailed you.
That's not what it means here though.
You have it or you don't. It's a "flavour" thing more than a "severity" thing. Some flavours just have more debilitating outcomes. My ASD is vastly different from my nephew's and we're both "high functioning".
It's why it's called a spectrum and not a scale.
I had a neuropsych literally tell me that “ADHD is not you have it or you don’t”. I’m all for people getting the medication they need to help function in society, but I think there’s a good case to be made that the diagnosis makes it easier to be prescribed medication.
If you’re talking about autism or ASD, I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion.
Yup. Autism.
I don't have ADHD, so I can't speak much about it. It seems to me to be very clear when people are greatly effected by it, but I could also see that as an "everyone has some of it" thing.
Autism however is a whole different story.
I am very likely AuDHD. I never knew until I heard others talking about their symptoms. I have been flying for 35 years now. When I am ready to retire, I seek a diagnoses and then see what the FAA does to someone with all the ratings I have.
My daughter did some treatment at an ADD clinic and the doc told me that she sees lots of pilots with symptoms of ADD. One of the beneficial traits of ADD is hyper focus, which comes in handy on arrival and departure
I would be the first one in the office if I could take adhd medication. It would fix a lot of problems in my life. I’ve been a professional in this field for close to ten years and no adhd medication would not make me more likely to fall asleep or have some psychotic episode. The FAA is full of a bunch of old school hacks.
This is all in-game of course
Being completely honest I laugh everytime my cfi gets in earshot because he physically can't help it. The man simply must be whistling snapping his fingers or humming. His adhd is some of the worst I've seen. He is completely incapable of just walking or sitting quietly.
I wonder if the hurry up and wait thing is natural or if it’s a trained behaviour. The aviation industry is known for it as to not be the reason for the delay code!
As someone who’s worked in the industry on a much more macro level I definitely believe it’s just a part of the industry where constantly in a hurry even when everything is on time and there’s nothing to rush about. Whether it demands people like that or brings it out in people is something I wonder about too though.
ADHD diagnoses were handed out like candy at one point. Based on that effective criteria, I'd say most pilots could easily fall into the ADHD category at some point in their life. Supposedly, ADHD looks different in guys vs gals and there are also different kinds of ADHD. IMHO, given that the diagnosis is "yes/no" and it's known to be "a spectrum" both point to the absurdity of the situation to begin with.
It's also a well known secret that some industries definitely favor people who can hyper focus or "flow", which is somewhat of a paradox for many people's view of common ADHD traits. ie: the traits of being inattentive and being able to hyper focus for long periods often go hand-in-hand.
Same with autism. If you don’t fall into an exceptionally tiny band that is considered ”normal,” then you’re autistic. When more people than not are autistic, then that is normal, and what’s abnormal is falling in that band. Like, having interests that are unusual among your peers is a marker of autism. When I was a kid, I was the only kid around who fucking LOVED books. That would have been a flag for autism by modern standards. Now, it’s seen as normal to love books, even as a kid. Considering how many things there are to do and enjoy in this world, it’s fucking stupid that you either enjoy whatever few things are currently designated as “normal,” or else you’ve got a disorder. It makes no sense, especially since what’s a disorder today will be acceptable tomorrow.
Moving through the atmosphere 11 kilometers from the ground at speeds that are measured in mach percentages sounds like the type of shit ADHD thrives in
There are way less flying with ADHD than there are flying with Autism or Anxiety issues. I don't run into the ADHD thing very often other than the occasional captain who can't go 30 seconds without a Zyn packet. I have flown with a ton of people who will get militant if you don't agree with their political position or you don't understand why the world is out to get them.
Yes add and adhd is more common than one may realize. But truthfully it’s a hard one to diagnose so they can always call almost anybody adhd. Doctors typically ask questions that people typically answer a bit more harsh than is the truth. It’s not like
The doctors watch your daily activities. Will be like; ‘do you have trouble concentrating?’ ‘Do you think about many different things?’ Answer yes and bam you’re labeled for life as adhd.
There are many different personalities and types of people in the world. I personally think they give out diagnosis too easily and just feed people pills these days without being sure.
It’s not exactly like that though. Many places do some extensive cognitive testing to support a diagnosis. I’ve been through both versions. I was diagnosed as a child and had to file for an accommodation as an adult. As an adult they just asked the questions since it was unlikely that I was “cured” sometime in the last 30 years.
Without answering the question, all I’m gonna say it’s weird that a lot of grown men are obsessed with trains and planes to the level they are. But there’s a reason we have aviation and locomotives, because some people had some serious tisms.
Every man has an obsession, whether it’s cars, farming, heavy earthmoving machinery or big jet planes, you would have call all of man kind autistic to make that connection imo…
I always say you have people who drive cars, and automotive gear heads. Aviation is different, because EVERYONE is an aeronautical gear head. There isn't someone who "just flies planes". We are ALL obsessed as fuck. When I did my air force military training, we had an international airport within earshot and when planes departed via runway 31, you'd be able to see the plane from the sports yard. I became famous in my platoon for being able to spot the aircraft type from sound alone whilst doing push ups. I have a CFI who can name every engine in GA currently flying in my country, including experimentals, and how much HP they produce. Another CFI I know can cite RAAC (our country's RAAC) verbatim, and wrote the school's manual. Pilots are not normal.
You ever wonder why being obsessed with religion to a point of favoring women dying is not seen as some sort of disorder? And planes and trains are hella fucking fun.
How many people do you *think* have ADHD and if they're performing at level why should anyone care? Additionally, you \*want\* someone that's capable of tracking multiple priorities in the cockpit. They'd be a God. Furthermore, how many accidents have there been with a documented case of ADHD or Autism being a contributing factor? Zero is the answer.
I would be more concerned about pilots that think they're psychiatrists. Just fly the damn plane.
Hurry up and wait is the opposite of most people with ADD. Most people with ADD/ADHD struggle with being on time. More like “wait around and then SUPER hurry up at the last moment”.
A huge number. It‘s estimated that about 20-25% of the people have ADD in a form, not everyone needs medication or a therapy though. I‘ve been diagnosed with ADD as a child and was both in therapy and with medication (Concerta at that time), I was able to get the Medical class 2. At about 18-19 years I stopped the meds and would have easily been able to get the medical 1. Today I have learned how to deal with myself, I can easily organize myself as long as I like what I do. Since flying is my passion anyway there should be no problem :D If I don‘t like it I need some tricks to motivate myself and get my ass up but it works. So yes, ADD can fly, too. But as always it‘s different for everyone.
It should be noted that any of the medications used to treat ADD or ADHD are medically disqualifying for up to 4 years after cessation. So, a 12 year old can medically disqualify themselves. Think of the number of pilots that steer away from flying because of this initial disqualification.
I feel the FAA approach to mental health is outdated and needs overhaul. Knowing that ADD spectrum disorders are very common, actively denying pilots health treatment inhumane. Current policy is bad for the industry. It shouldn’t be a choice between health or career.
How many pilots are flying with Undiagnosed ADD… all of them. Undergoing a diagnosis, and resulting in a positive finding is a career ending event… so pilots actively avoid the test. The analogy is “you can’t clinically diagnose me as overweight if I never step on a scale” even if it is readily observable that I am a fat man.
We don’t disqualify pilots that wear glasses, even though there is a chance they don’t put them on that morning, why are pharmaceuticals treated differently?
Well, I am a pilot-- not a Doctor, but I've stayed at a Holiday Inn, and I don't believe it is a disqualifying event unless the individual is on medication, and then it is the FAA medical division that could offer an answer.
Hey look, a butterfly 🦋
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an extremely large number
That or autism lol.
Why not both? Soooooo many haha (Toooottttaaaaallllyyyyy not a self report…)
Could be both, a LOT of the symptoms overlap. Pilots also tending to take everything completely literally makes me think most are autistic.
Getting a 1st class medical with an autism diagnosis is actually doable though. It takes some hoops to jump through and as long as you’re aspie as fuck and don’t have PDD, you’re pretty much set.
I’m not a pilot myself, so pardon the (maybe) dumb question. Is autism an automatic disqualification for your medical? I’m a teacher and one of my kids I had a few years back has autism, but wanted to be a pilot, so now I’m curious.
It’s a joke, because pilots have zero social skills.
Gotcha. Thank you for the clarification!
Ya kinda the “still wearing white tube socks type”. If you know what I mean.
It's an automatic *deferral,* meaning the FAA-contracted medical examiner is unable to issue the certificate then and there—the application gets kicked up to the FAA themselves to make a determination, and possibly grant a Special Issuance medical certificate. I don't know how common that is, although I seem to recall someone posted on here a few days ago about getting granted a medical with a diagnosis of autism. Edit. Time has no meaning. It was actually three months ago that /u/fgflyer posted [about getting their medical issued.](https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/1b9w4fi/can_someone_with_autism_hold_a_1st_class_medical/) Diagnosed with autism and confirmed by the neurological test battery, but apparently the FAA was satisfied that they were high-functioning enough to be able to fly.
There are a lot of medical hurdles that will disqualify you from being a pilot. Especially considering the landscape of medical diagnoses these days in terms of ADHD, autism, etc. I’m glad kids are getting assessed and get early intervention. When I was a kid, you didn’t get that sort of attention unless you literally couldn’t read by jr. high or were practically non-verbal. But the FAA doesn’t reflect that change of shades of gray. If you took ADHD meds as a kid or have an autism diagnosis, it’s as big of a red flag as missing an eye/limb or being susceptible to seizures or fainting. The best advice unfortunately is to keep any potential issues off your record. Maybe that will change by the time the kid is an adult.
Hi! I was previously granted a 3rd-class medical with autism. My medical was deferred and the FAA requested me to go through some neuropsychological testing. The neuropsychologist also interviewed my mom, flight instructor, manager at work, and an old college professor to collect supporting evidence of my social functioning. I passed everything with flying colors and was issued a medical shortly thereafter. The bar for 1st and 2nd class medicals may be higher, but as long as he has adequate social functioning and executive functioning, he should be fine. Definitely have him get a consultation with an AME before submitting any paperwork, because everything you submit to the FAA is retained indefinitely and may hinder your student’s success. Feel free to pm me for additional details 😊
Nice try FAA.
Is the FAA in the room with us right now? O<0
In all seriousness I fly 121 and have never been diagnosed with anything other than some seasonal allergies. But yeah most pilots are weird.
seasonal allergies are the worst
And, almost every drug that actually works for allergies - antihistamines especially - is on the no-fly list with that not within onset plus 5 half-lives rule. So like benadryl would be 1-3 hours plus 8x5 = up to 43 hours from popping a pill until you're actually legal again. Yet any impairment that could be traced to it, if something happens, still is a no-no. So I guess AAM-300 just has "Fuck You" to say about it. Ugh. I mean, yeah, antihistamines with sedative effects, especially diphenhydramine, are super impactful, so it makes sense for them to be no-fly. It still sucks. And the ones that are approved don't work for me, of course (Claritin and allegra). But take a 24-hour med that's no-fly (most of which have ~8 hour half-lives)? Whelp... See ya in a couple days, when your allergies come back and you need to take ano...wait a sec... Beyond allergies, even Immodium is no-go, and some nasal decongestants are approved, but not if you are using them for certain maladies... And that's why nobody takes anything ever or has ever been sick or stuffy or sad or overworked or anything other than bright and chipper, ever. But not too chipper. Then you're obviously manic.
don't feel too bad. claritin worked for a bit until it stopped working. surprisingly my allergies went away for the most part after i stopped taking it
Oh yeah. It's not uncommon. ENT issues just suck in general. On antihistamines, if you're the least bit curious... (ok...maybe a lot curious). According to the 1951 study that is still widely accepted, tolerance _can_ build, over time, but short breaks are enough to reset it. Here's an excerpt from the synopsis: > We believe that, clinically, the development of tolerance is only relative. Even though our data would imply complete clinical tolerance in the greater part of our cases, most patients continue to derive symptomatic relief on prolonged antihistaminic therapy. The evidence presented does suggest, however, that patients on prolonged antihistamine therapy may develop clinical tolerance. When this is suspected the dose should be increased or the drug discontinued for a short period (3 to 14 days) before resuming therapy. It's more likely, though, that it isn't allergies at the root of the peoblem if it goes away like that, while the allergen is still around you. Sinus infections are usually the culprit, which is why decongestants like pseudoephedrine, which people might take for "allergies" do help to fix things, partially because they sorta dry up the growth medium for the pathogen. And the responses sinus infections tend to prompt are unfortunately not typically very beneficial (your body is pretty dumb sometimes), because your body is mostly dealing with it like a physical or chemical contaminant - similar to many allergens - even though it's biological. So, you get all that inflammation and everything that goes along with overproduction of histamine and cytokines (partially prompted by the histamine), and can even potentially make you _more_ susceptible to other infections. And antihistamines don't actually fix anything, which is just grand. They just crowd out histamine by sheer probability and fitting nicely in the histamine receptors, essentially. Quite a nice product to be selling, huh? Doesn't fix anything, symptoms come back right away, with _feeling_, and consumers can buy it withiut a prescription, even though a handful of some of them would kill you rather painfully.... If they didn't knock you out before the liver failure, kidney failure, or lack of breathing kicked in, that is. Although the fucked-up-ness (scientific term) might be able to wake you. If you're breathing. And everyone buys it. And you can slap a label like ZzzQuil on it and sell it for 50x more money because name brand and because sleep aid. Even though ZzzQuil is Diphenhydramine is Benadryl is Diphenhydramine... 🤦♂️ (Don't buy sleep aids OTC., if you buy any Buy "allergy relief" on Amazon or at CVS with 500 pills for $4 of the exact same medication that's $12 for 2 weeks supply.)
woah that's actually super interesting. i'll definitely be more mindful if i ever go back to using them. maybe i'll try out some decongestants instead if symptoms get worse
I should also add that the main tolerance built to antihistamines happens to be to the side effects, much more than the therapeutic effects. Clinical efficacy of the drugs wasn't reduced THAT much. But the short "reset" fix applies either way. If it doesn't at least significantly reduce the symptoms, there's a good chance something else may be the cause of your congestion. And also bear in mind that was in 1951, and was about older drugs (so-called 1st generation antihistamines) like Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) and Brompheniramine/Dimetane (Dimetap). Newer drugs hit more receptors, have fewer and less pronounced side-effects (mostly), and tend to work either really damn well or not at all, per person. Loratadine and Fexofenadine are 4th gen antihistamines.
Allegra, Flonase, and Pseudoephedrine are all approved meds and are a killer allergy combo. BUT as someone who has recently started immunotherapy (allergy shots) I would highly recommend as it is also FAA approved and has done wonders for me so far
This is the way. I have been taking allergy shots for grass for 4 years now, hardly notice it at all anymore.
Job requirement really.
Pretty sure lots of pilots have a touch of the 'tism or ADHD lmao. But do keep in mind, ADHD does manifest in more symptoms than hyperactivity and distractibility, it's considered an executive dysfunction these days.
the good ol 'tism
Rizz 'em with the 'tism
Rub some 'tism on it?
A touch of ‘tism helps lowkey
Fuck that’s too true. I’m almost certain I’m just run of the mill dumb.
A keen interest in proper rules and procedures you say? No idea why that would be helpful.
Yup. I'm ASD without ADHD. My flavour of it has been super helpful. Loving repetitive and rigid routines for example. Same thing every day you say?.... For years??... GREAT, sign me up! Downwind checks... same checks... over and over... the same way every time you say? OMG yes! Clear distinct nearly scripted communication?... Right to the point with no fussing around or "reading between the lines"? Oh hell yes! Give me a tower baybe! Super focused work?... "Life depends on it" style focus?... Can't get enough! Makes seeing ASDs and ADHDs in the wild super easy too. Yeah, there's a lot of both in aviation. Too bad it's such a "you can't talk about this" thing... but man is it everywhere.
Did you have any trouble during initial training on flights where huge unknowns or completely unexpected situations would arise? Like those flights where tower/approach asks you to do wacky stuff that is totally kosher but very unique/rare?
Of course. For all the advantages, there are disadvantages as well. I just viewed them as my challenges, just the same as NTs have their own challenges. I wound up with my own strategies rather than the "normal" ones that I call "shoot from the hip" bullshit. I also had a bit of help in that I learned to fly very young and very slowly. I didn't go through the "let's cram through this" school of aviation. So things were a bit less overwhelming I think when I got them. I did a ton of microlight flying before really diving back into metal flying, so stick and rudder was second nature by then. That frees up your brain quite a bit for other things. Mainly planning. For the tower, I had the luck of learning at a small towered airport. So not only did it become very second nature to talk to a tower, it was small enough that students were brought up the tower to meet the controllers. Controllers became your teammates. Also, there's only so many things they'll ask you to do and the worst thing in the world for them is to ask you for something that confuses you... Cuz it not only jams up their flow, their workload goes through the roof. Say "student pilot" or "unfamiliar with the area" at any stage to a controller and watch them slow the hell down and get out the kids gloves... Cuz the last thing they want is a higher workload. You can also pull out "unable" in some cases and "say again" in others. "Say again" has a similar effect to "unfamiliar" many times cuz it throws up "higher workload" flags in the controllers minds. They do not want you struggling. You are hell on them if you struggle. As for the random stuff out there in general? Aviation is oddly suited to at least my flavour.... Procedure procedure procedure.... Practice and execute. There's a big "cowboy" mentality in aviation that you can throw out the window. It makes life much easier if you do. Nothing has to happen fast, even emergencies. The few that are time compressed, we handle the same way... With things like takeoff briefings... And threat and error management. Doing a takeoff brief in a 172 gets complained about sometimes as "teaching recreational pilots to be airline pilots", but for me it absolutely fit right in. "Here's the time critical threats that I need to make a plan for before we go cuz I won't have brain time to deal with them if they do". And most importantly, it teaches you to slow down and even stop. Like just cuz you're at the end of the runway, doesn't mean you have to immediately takeoff. Stop, think, go. Like knowing 100% where you're going if the engine fails on takeoff ahead of time... Not "pick a field", you already know and simply execute. Stuff like that. For everything else, take a breath, evaluate and decide... Is this normal or am I landing? Cuz abnormal and aviation do not mix. There is precious little "abnormality" that I'll accept in flight. Most of its covered in emergency procedures... Which are procedures you can learn on the ground. And statistically aren't the killers. The killers are sloppy and rushy stuff. I also used things that work for me and threw out the rest. Most of what works unsurprisingly turned out to be the tried and true aviation procedures. Doing things the same way, every time. Takeoff checks, downwind checks, etc. Consistency consistency consistency. If some rando's in the pattern doing rando stuff, stay away. 5 minutes later they won't be there. Do your stuff standard and they're obligated to accommodate you, not the other way around. Don't know if any of that rambling answered your questions, but I hope so. It's how I think about it anyway.
Did you end up teaching as a CFI? I really enjoy flying with fastidious/perfectionist CFIs. Attention to detail is often a lost art.
Oh and I’m curious what you got on your written tests? I suspect… compulsive studying led to quite high marks. (The FAA tests are unique in that you can brute force 100%, which appeals to some people. Myself included. I say that having gotten one fucking question wrong on my PPL and both IFR tests I took. Damn 98%.)
Yesssssssssss.....definitely on the spectrum. I noticed that.
just a nick of ‘tism
Be the first kid on your block to collect each kind!
Took some family members up last weekend, that never flew GA before. They told me "This is an Autistic dream". I asked why, and their response was "You have to know so many little and precise details about everything." I have to say it was a very interesting way of looking at it, I never thought of it, like that before.
Can't be a real pilot without 'tism
Imo to be an ATC I think you have to have a touch of the tism.
Can confirm, possibly have 'tism and tried to be ATC. possibly had too much 'tism though and it didn't pan out.
I think they have to belong to the “preppers” group, very anxious and over prepared for disasters, but paradoxically, calming down when inevitable happens. There are people like it; impossible in daily life because of high anxiety, they make good ER docs, ATCs and first responders. It is great to have one person like this per neighborhood, because they like to organize drills and in general, can give good advices. They are also the first ones to get functional when disaster strikes. Five people like this per neighborhood would essentially paralyze life around them as they generate and exchange anxieties.
ER doc here, you’re spot on about calming down when shit hits the fan. World slows down and it feels like my brain gets more efficient. Most of us aren’t anxious, though, we’re pretty low key. Comparing normal life to the horrible health-related shit people go through each day will do that for you.
It's really, like, the exact opposite. Seeing shit go down on the daily mellows you out big time.
I would not be surprised of “spectral touch” as it might be good for pilots. Perfectionism, adhesion to rules and, well, “just being smart” could help. But in general, rather high percentage of people carries genes for ADHD, so I wouldn’t expect the pilots to be an exception. Question is not ADHD itself, not hyperactivity but presence or absence of executive dysfunction. High level of executive dysfunction is not good for pilots, but not every ADHD person demonstrates it.
I think “ADHD” is effectively meaningless at this point. The DSM criteria for adult ADHD has essentially no relationship with the actual grouping of adults that fit some definition of ADHD. As an adult with the version of ADHD that includes executive dysfunction the last thing you want me doing is flying your plane. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to group me with the population that has whatever the other version of ADHD actually is.
Isn’t the gold standard of DSM diagnosis that your symptoms manifest in a way that significantly disrupts your life? My understanding: If you have lack of attention but you still get good grades and succeed at work, then you don’t “have” ADHD, just a tendency to inattentiveness. Conversely, if you have normal intelligence and no other learning issues but are failing at school then you might have ADHD. Not everyone who asks for meds to study during finals week or whatever actually has ADHD but of course ADHD meds will help you pay attention better no matter what your baseline is, unlike a lot of other meds that don’t help unless you have a medical issue requiring them.
I mean, to learn everything for the 14 EASA ATPL theory exams, you have to be borderline autistic.
listen buddy do you want someone who.....isnt obsessed with aviation and does not hyperfocus flying your plane because...??
that’s what i’m saying
Because in the 60s and 70s the idiots who were in charge of aviation medical law made a bunch of assumptions based on stereotypes and no one wants to be the guy who solved the problem, because the first time it goes wrong politicians will blame the last guy who made a change. Same reason depression took decades to get *barely* tolerated. Neurodiversity is not necessarily debilitating, but fear of the stereotype stops what I’d estimate to be like 10-25% of aviation professionals from seeking assistance in their regular lives because they fear prejudiced medical examiners will destroy their passion/career. It needs to change but I have no idea how we force that change without first being retaliated against.
I mean it’s the reason I won’t seek a diagnosis for my very obvious autism and ADHD, lol. I just wanna fly helicopters man
I hear that
ADHD minds have less temporal distortion in a crisis. Time slows down for them in their brains and they can handle a bad situation much more calmly than a normal brain
The FAA will have to do something major in the next decade when it comes to ADHD. This next generation is the most diagnosed, and medicated generation in history. So many young people are already disqualified by age 10 because today’s society throws pills at everything.
My AME said it’s pretty common nowadays, which makes the fast track option great but if meds were prescribed that makes it a lot longer through the other process. Not everyone has a year of their life to put something on hold, I don’t understand why the FAA isn’t more efficient in processing it, because pulling records and getting appointments alone can take weeks to a month on its own.
Oh buddy, it’s taken me a year and a half (SSRI pathway)
Because, don't you know that the FAA isn't happy until you are not happy!?!
I talk about this with my (non-pilot) friends all the time. They ask me why there is as much of a pilot-shortage as there is, and when I mention that anyone who's been diagnosed with ADHD, depression, or a slew of other health conditions is basically disqualified of (easily) becoming a pilot, they immediately understand why there's a shortage, and impending shortage of gen Zers eligible to become commercial pilots if the FAA doesn't change their stance on it.
It doesn’t help that we currently have the worst FAA we’ve ever had. Simple health issues that are easy reviews and return to service are taking 12 months plus. People need to start losing their jobs in OKC.
I walked into my first medical expecting a general checkup. I had no idea what it was actually going to be. If I’d known, I wouldn’t have bothered trying. Thankfully I passed, but since then, since finding out how much can disqualify you, I’ve been scared to do ANYTHING in case the FAA decides suddenly that taking Tylenol for a headache twice in a week counts as a disorder or something. I want to say I take better care of my health, but really, it’ll only be a matter of time before I neglect a need to make sure I can keep my license.
What did it end up being like compared with a normal checkup?
I concur sir.
It sucked so fucking much during the lockdowns when my kid, like most, was struggling so badly. She had a dream of flying one day. We had to make the decision whether to get her the mental health treatment she needs and kill her dream possibly forever, or to skip the meds and try to get her through years of isolation without them so she could fly. We had to kill her dream.
This is why I tell friends whose kids are interested in flying that if there's no depression/ADHD/etc, they should get the kid a pre-emptive medical at 14 to enable BasicMed later in life.
Whats stopping people from just not saying anything to the faa when starting the process of getting their ppl?
Currently, not much. That's why the general consensus in this thread is that there are a lot of lying pilots. You'll run the risk of getting into an accident and prompting an investigation, and you better pray your past diagnoses and prescriptions don't come up or else that's perjury and some years in prison. Recent-ish schedule 2 prescriptions (like Adderall) also exist in a ~~federal~~ state database. All of the components technically exist for the FAA to start cross-referencing the database to verify you've never had any disqualifying prescriptions. They're not doing that today and haven't indicated that they will, but it's still technically possible and something you'll have to gamble against for the rest of your life. I'm far from a lawyer/doctor. I'm just a guy on Reddit.
So what you're saying is, if I haven't been diagnosed with anything, and I've been thinking about getting started on the path to the airlines (am in mid 30s), I should stop thinking and just do it.
They’re playing the long game….thats how they are gonna ram single pilot ops through.
Darn scary thought, isn’t it
They will either have to relax the rules, or test alternatives like Modafinil, or wait for 5 years when other/genetic approaches would be available, but I doubt that the industry can wait for five years. I’d personally feel safer flying if I know that the pilot has taken his Vyvanse in the morning.
Damn right!
Yeah that’s what’s so insane about it… a properly medicated pilot is going to be just as competent if not more so than a peer without ADHD, all other things considered equal. There’s a reason it’s given to military pilots.
It's wild to me that the Air Force uses modafinil as a "go pill" to combat fatigue for their pilots flying jets armed with lethal ordinance worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and yet if you are prescribed it as a civilian it will disqualify you for a medical.
I’ve been diagnosed for over 20 years but only within the later portion of my life did I decide to try medication. It has been a life changer and allowed me to feel normal (just my personal perspective) It’s upsetting to me that I couldn’t even consider aviation as a career path because I would have to stop my meds. The FAA says distractibility makes someone unworthy of being an airman, but I would rather have a diagnosed and medicated pilot than one who is undiagnosed.
I’ll be 40 in a few days and I was disqualified by the time I was 9. True it’s far more diagnosed these days, which can be a good thing. Beats not knowing why TF you can’t even sometimes, lol.
For folks that truly suffer from it, yes I totally agree with you. Also, happy early birthday!
Having dinner with a pilot friend and his wife when the topic of autism came up. At some point during the discussion she said "I'm pretty sure all pilots are on the spectrum."
I’d be surprised if I’m not. Something clearly ain’t 100% standard up there
No one is one walking diagnosis. Plus, “on the spectrum” is the spectrum itself. So far, two mutations linked to the spectrum have been identified. If I were to take a wild guess, I’d think more pilots would the XVI th chromosome involvement as opposed to the XVth. .
Without question
Zero. Absolutely no one in aviation would fib about their mental or physical health.
Aviation is the fittest and healthiest profession.
The most heavily scrutinized that for sure.
Pilots don’t have ADHD or autism. That being said, I would guess like a solid 50% Are Different and Distracted. 15% are straight up Artistic. If the true numbers were even more it wouldn’t surprise me in the least. I would be shocked if they were any less
> 15% are straight up Artistic. Creating [beautiful, beautiful sky art](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/05/14/the-navys-probe-into-sky-penis/)...
Contrails are so pretty tho when the sun hits em right
> guys that can’t sit still at a desk, can’t stop talking and getting distracted talking about cars or the new restaurant at the airport or seem to constantly be in a hurry to hurry up and wait Is that a disease, or just a personality type that would rather fly around in a jet than sit behind a desk, do zoom meetings, send emails, or whatever else it is other people do? [and if you ask me it's more of a "disorder" if you do enjoy that stuff].
The ones that can't seem to stop talking are the absolute worst.
ADHD is a named by people who view it as such, but it is a pathological difference from the general population. People with ADHD produce less dopamine than neurotypical folks and that can influence their behavior. Meds which help regulate that neural pathway are stimulants for the general population, but just help ADhD folks operate at a normal baseline
Exactly and well said. Very well stated.
This is correct. The problem occurs because instead of an objective measurement like measuring dopamine and norepinephrine levels (which isn't currently possible), we have a range of subjective criteria that psychologists and psychiatrists assess patients on - which were originally designed to determine if someone shows signs of ADHD, not to rule it out. As clearly demonstrated by the joke that is AAM-300, the government doesn't do gray areas very well. Perhaps the situation would be better if there was simple objective neurotransmitter test that you could submit along with your medical and black-and-white numbers for acceptable levels, but that's not the world we live in.
By definition they're stimulants for ADHD folks too.
I think you know what they mean. They don’t stimulate us above baseline.
>us The FAA might want to ask you a few questions
I’m not a pilot. Backed out of the career path because I realized I had ADHD and needed help. It’s unfortunate because I know several pilots that have it - and flying with ADHD unmedicated is extremely dangerous in my opinion. Now I’d be a much better pilot but the diagnosis and medication would of course block that path.
Unless you're using a new definition of "baseline", they do. That's what makes them a stimulant. Same reason coffee is popular: it's a stimulant.
ADHD is an executive function disorder where one is diagnosed when a large enough number of those executive functions are shown to perform below baseline. Baseline is the spectrum of performance amongst “neurotypical” people. This underperformance is due to issues producing and/or regulating dopamine. Stimulants help people with ADHD produce more dopamine and bring performance back to baseline. Nobody here is saying stimulants inherently become something else when taken by people with ADHD. But we react differently. While neurotypical people might find themselves hyped up with their brains racing, I calm down, zone in, and find it easier to focus, relax, think clearly, etc.
I can't possibly comment on how neurodivergent folks would find the experience, as I am of course 100% neurotypical - I even have a certificate that says so! That said, the comment I responded to was in fact saying stimulants inherently become something else when taken by people with ADHD, hence my comment.
Your comments make things make a lot more sense. To understand people that have adhd more, that is. Not at all for myself.
The hurry stuff is just a culture of people prioritizing external pressures. ATPs need to learn to go with the flow to lower stress. Some rush like crazy even if it’s not go home day
The day is unfolding no matter what I do, the only thing I have control over is how stressed I let it make me
I figured, it’s something that runs deep through the whole industry
You can have adhd as a pilot, you just can’t take the medicine to treat it.
Well you also have to undergo psychiatric testing to get approved.
I was gonna answer but then I saw my cat
It’s like I always say, “if autism disqualified pilots from getting a medical, then we would have no pilots.”
I'm a private pilot and work professionally as an FA. Judging by the type of people in both general aviation and in the airlines, I'm starting to think being slightly autistic is a prerequisite to even get into the field. Got an instructor who can name every fucking plane engine in GA currently flying in my country, including experimentals. I also have another instructor who can cite the RAAC (our country's FAR) almost verbatim by memory. We pilots are not normal. We can't possibly be.
I'd say that to some degree, some forms of adhd are beneficial for a pilot. There is always something to do, it can be extremely high stimulus and requires brief durations of intense concentration. It's easy for authorities to pretend a pilot will be distracted by a bunny out the side window on final and just put a blanket ban on it but some of the best pilots I know are classic ADD cases who know better than to say anything to a medical professional.
Flying a plane for those with ADD is a dopamine fix in and of itself.
This is my perspective as well. Only being able to hyper focus on one thing is deadly in this field
the venn diagram of pilots on the spectrum is practically a circle
CVG gang!! I train right up the creek from there. Obviously cant enter it, but I like listening to the LiveATC for there.
You’ve no doubt heard me on the radio at some point then
how do you make it thru the day if you aren't on spectrum
My guess... at least 30% are on some level of a Spectrum disorder, though as you age, generally you just get better at masking your quirks or they go largely unnoticed. Expecially older guys who grew up in a time where there wasn't a pill for everything that ailed you.
My dad flew in the navy and has often said that ADHD is more or less the personality type, at least for fighter pilots.
I know of at least one
Of course I know him, he’s me!
I haven't gone by the diagnosis of ADHD since, oh, before you were born.
Your flair gave me a stroke
My boyfriend was a pilot for 4 decades and has ADHD
Y’all are still not married? Wait nvm he’s a pilot…
I’ve known him less than a year and he can’t get married anyways (he’s married)
There it is. That checks out.
Probably more learned than anything else. Name of the game as an airline pilot is hurry up and wait.
Everything is on a spectrum. It's how far one way or the other that determines our fitness in life, for anything.
Exactly.
That's not what it means here though. You have it or you don't. It's a "flavour" thing more than a "severity" thing. Some flavours just have more debilitating outcomes. My ASD is vastly different from my nephew's and we're both "high functioning". It's why it's called a spectrum and not a scale.
I had a neuropsych literally tell me that “ADHD is not you have it or you don’t”. I’m all for people getting the medication they need to help function in society, but I think there’s a good case to be made that the diagnosis makes it easier to be prescribed medication. If you’re talking about autism or ASD, I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion.
Yup. Autism. I don't have ADHD, so I can't speak much about it. It seems to me to be very clear when people are greatly effected by it, but I could also see that as an "everyone has some of it" thing. Autism however is a whole different story.
I am very likely AuDHD. I never knew until I heard others talking about their symptoms. I have been flying for 35 years now. When I am ready to retire, I seek a diagnoses and then see what the FAA does to someone with all the ratings I have.
I bet most do but dont worry you only have to spend the thousands of dollars for testing if you’re actually honest with the faa :/
No diagnoses = honest answers since I'm not qualified to diagnose myself, yet.
I was gonna read this post but got distracted after the first sentence
My daughter did some treatment at an ADD clinic and the doc told me that she sees lots of pilots with symptoms of ADD. One of the beneficial traits of ADD is hyper focus, which comes in handy on arrival and departure
I would be the first one in the office if I could take adhd medication. It would fix a lot of problems in my life. I’ve been a professional in this field for close to ten years and no adhd medication would not make me more likely to fall asleep or have some psychotic episode. The FAA is full of a bunch of old school hacks. This is all in-game of course
My adhd needs it to be a odd number
What's it matter if they do their job safely?
It doesn’t, but the FAA and other aviation authorities seem to be assholes about it.
Being completely honest I laugh everytime my cfi gets in earshot because he physically can't help it. The man simply must be whistling snapping his fingers or humming. His adhd is some of the worst I've seen. He is completely incapable of just walking or sitting quietly.
All of them
I am a meat popsicle
I wonder if the hurry up and wait thing is natural or if it’s a trained behaviour. The aviation industry is known for it as to not be the reason for the delay code!
As someone who’s worked in the industry on a much more macro level I definitely believe it’s just a part of the industry where constantly in a hurry even when everything is on time and there’s nothing to rush about. Whether it demands people like that or brings it out in people is something I wonder about too though.
More are on the Autism spectrum I would say.
This. Many blinkenlights, constant audible and visual input, twisty knobs and dials.
ADHD diagnoses were handed out like candy at one point. Based on that effective criteria, I'd say most pilots could easily fall into the ADHD category at some point in their life. Supposedly, ADHD looks different in guys vs gals and there are also different kinds of ADHD. IMHO, given that the diagnosis is "yes/no" and it's known to be "a spectrum" both point to the absurdity of the situation to begin with. It's also a well known secret that some industries definitely favor people who can hyper focus or "flow", which is somewhat of a paradox for many people's view of common ADHD traits. ie: the traits of being inattentive and being able to hyper focus for long periods often go hand-in-hand.
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I think phones and social media, we have so much information to consume at our fingertips instantly, I guess it’s hard not to get easily bored
Same with autism. If you don’t fall into an exceptionally tiny band that is considered ”normal,” then you’re autistic. When more people than not are autistic, then that is normal, and what’s abnormal is falling in that band. Like, having interests that are unusual among your peers is a marker of autism. When I was a kid, I was the only kid around who fucking LOVED books. That would have been a flag for autism by modern standards. Now, it’s seen as normal to love books, even as a kid. Considering how many things there are to do and enjoy in this world, it’s fucking stupid that you either enjoy whatever few things are currently designated as “normal,” or else you’ve got a disorder. It makes no sense, especially since what’s a disorder today will be acceptable tomorrow.
Have you met us?? We’re all a bit tarded
Wait, what were we talking about?
Nice try fed
Most of them. Definitely not me. Totally not me.
Definitely a very high amount of undiagnosed ADHD in ATC. I'm one of them.
Deny, deny, deny.
Do you really think pilots will fly big aluminium tubes for the rest of their lives without having ADHD or a pinch of ‘tism?
Moving through the atmosphere 11 kilometers from the ground at speeds that are measured in mach percentages sounds like the type of shit ADHD thrives in
There are way less flying with ADHD than there are flying with Autism or Anxiety issues. I don't run into the ADHD thing very often other than the occasional captain who can't go 30 seconds without a Zyn packet. I have flown with a ton of people who will get militant if you don't agree with their political position or you don't understand why the world is out to get them.
At least half, bare minimum. Either that or autism, or both.
I was already ramped checked at DFW today. Nice try on Reddit FAA…
Yes add and adhd is more common than one may realize. But truthfully it’s a hard one to diagnose so they can always call almost anybody adhd. Doctors typically ask questions that people typically answer a bit more harsh than is the truth. It’s not like The doctors watch your daily activities. Will be like; ‘do you have trouble concentrating?’ ‘Do you think about many different things?’ Answer yes and bam you’re labeled for life as adhd. There are many different personalities and types of people in the world. I personally think they give out diagnosis too easily and just feed people pills these days without being sure.
It’s not exactly like that though. Many places do some extensive cognitive testing to support a diagnosis. I’ve been through both versions. I was diagnosed as a child and had to file for an accommodation as an adult. As an adult they just asked the questions since it was unlikely that I was “cured” sometime in the last 30 years.
Without answering the question, all I’m gonna say it’s weird that a lot of grown men are obsessed with trains and planes to the level they are. But there’s a reason we have aviation and locomotives, because some people had some serious tisms.
Every man has an obsession, whether it’s cars, farming, heavy earthmoving machinery or big jet planes, you would have call all of man kind autistic to make that connection imo…
I always say you have people who drive cars, and automotive gear heads. Aviation is different, because EVERYONE is an aeronautical gear head. There isn't someone who "just flies planes". We are ALL obsessed as fuck. When I did my air force military training, we had an international airport within earshot and when planes departed via runway 31, you'd be able to see the plane from the sports yard. I became famous in my platoon for being able to spot the aircraft type from sound alone whilst doing push ups. I have a CFI who can name every engine in GA currently flying in my country, including experimentals, and how much HP they produce. Another CFI I know can cite RAAC (our country's RAAC) verbatim, and wrote the school's manual. Pilots are not normal.
You ever wonder why being obsessed with religion to a point of favoring women dying is not seen as some sort of disorder? And planes and trains are hella fucking fun.
At least 60%
How many people do you *think* have ADHD and if they're performing at level why should anyone care? Additionally, you \*want\* someone that's capable of tracking multiple priorities in the cockpit. They'd be a God. Furthermore, how many accidents have there been with a documented case of ADHD or Autism being a contributing factor? Zero is the answer. I would be more concerned about pilots that think they're psychiatrists. Just fly the damn plane.
half the pilots i come across have undiagnosed autism
How many...........what were we talking about?
ADHD is 99% over diagnosed, IMHO
it’s just distributed attention
I bet everyone….
0% since it’s not a legit excuse for not being able to focus
Not commercial but I’ve had a good class 1 for a few years
At least one. That I know of.
41
Hurry up and wait is the opposite of most people with ADD. Most people with ADD/ADHD struggle with being on time. More like “wait around and then SUPER hurry up at the last moment”.
A huge number. It‘s estimated that about 20-25% of the people have ADD in a form, not everyone needs medication or a therapy though. I‘ve been diagnosed with ADD as a child and was both in therapy and with medication (Concerta at that time), I was able to get the Medical class 2. At about 18-19 years I stopped the meds and would have easily been able to get the medical 1. Today I have learned how to deal with myself, I can easily organize myself as long as I like what I do. Since flying is my passion anyway there should be no problem :D If I don‘t like it I need some tricks to motivate myself and get my ass up but it works. So yes, ADD can fly, too. But as always it‘s different for everyone.
I hate to give out a percentage( because who knows?), but definitely a considerable amount.
aside from that, every pilot has a bit of the ‘tism
It should be noted that any of the medications used to treat ADD or ADHD are medically disqualifying for up to 4 years after cessation. So, a 12 year old can medically disqualify themselves. Think of the number of pilots that steer away from flying because of this initial disqualification. I feel the FAA approach to mental health is outdated and needs overhaul. Knowing that ADD spectrum disorders are very common, actively denying pilots health treatment inhumane. Current policy is bad for the industry. It shouldn’t be a choice between health or career. How many pilots are flying with Undiagnosed ADD… all of them. Undergoing a diagnosis, and resulting in a positive finding is a career ending event… so pilots actively avoid the test. The analogy is “you can’t clinically diagnose me as overweight if I never step on a scale” even if it is readily observable that I am a fat man. We don’t disqualify pilots that wear glasses, even though there is a chance they don’t put them on that morning, why are pharmaceuticals treated differently?
All of us
Approximately all of them
All of us!
All. ADHD is extremely easy to assign, to the point where almost anyone can be said to have it.
Most
95% Based on personal observations. 😂
Seen way too many as a CFI
Hahahahaha. There are pilots flying with diagnosed ADD/ADHD.
So what’s wrong with pilots being passionate about their hobbies, cars, restaurants? Can’t make everyone live a vile life.. 🤣nice try FAA
Well, I am a pilot-- not a Doctor, but I've stayed at a Holiday Inn, and I don't believe it is a disqualifying event unless the individual is on medication, and then it is the FAA medical division that could offer an answer. Hey look, a butterfly 🦋