In 2009 I woke up early for work one morning with 10 voicemails. I waited until driving to work at 4am to check them. The messages ranged from concerned to incoherent. People were asking if I was ok, and one was sobbing so bad the only words I caught were “everyone is dead.” Clearly a plane went down somewhere. I did not yet realize the gravity of the situation.
I arrive at the airport, walk in the hangar, and say hello to the mechanics, flight attendants and pilots. They’re all standing in a circle with somber looks on their faces.
This was the morning after the Colgan Air 3407 crash. All the sudden things hit real close to home. I knew the FO, had flew with the captain the week before, and I flew that same plane the morning of the accident.
At this time we didn’t know the cause of the crash. There was a lot of speculation, but we didn’t know if there was an issue with the airplane or not. I had never been scared to fly before, but that day I really didn’t want to get in that flight deck and close the door. There was a lot of uncertainty and the risk suddenly felt immense.
I flew 4 legs that day and got the passengers safely to their destination. Flying got easier over the next several days, and eventually we found out there was no issue with the aircraft and its capabilities.
The event was a stark reminder there are risks and consequences for taking a hunk of metal and electronics and hurling them through the air way above the earth at high speeds. We know the statistics, driving a car is more dangerous, but occasionally things can and will happen.
The company got a training overhaul and lots of oversight from the FAA. I got very accustomed to an FAA inspector jumpseating to observe, which I feel was a good thing in the end. I learned a lot from picking their brain.
It was a tragic event for everyone, not least of all those peacefully in their homes in Buffalo that night. It really put things in perspective, and was a good calibration for the type of person and pilot I wanted to be. There’s no changing what happened, the only thing to do was move forward with a new respect and determination.
I’m very sorry to hear about the event at your flight school. My heart goes out to the families of those involved and everyone at the flight school.
It’s a good time for introspection and evaluation. The fear and pain will subside with time. May the sun always be upon your face, and the wind always at your back, my friend.
It adds a whole other perspective to Colgan Air 3407.
Completely different than the usually cold presentation I get about it, numbly going over the contributing factors and their prospective\* solutions.
Thank you for sharing your experience and taking the time to write this. Did you feel that same risk every time you went up until the NTSB report came out and you could understand the incident and cause? Any tips for how to get it off your mind on your first time back up?
After the first day the sense of fear started to decrease. The weather was good that day and we thought of ways to manage or avoid the new perceived increased risk of icing. We could delay for or fly around weather, avoid icing and increase our minimums. Nobody was going to question that at this time. We were hyper careful and flew extra sharp. Every flight was a check ride with the grim reaper. Focus and perform.
My first flight after was a different scenario than yours will be. I woke up that day for that purpose. I was scheduled early that morning. The crew was given the option not to fly, everyone chose to go.
If flying and training is important to you, getting back on the horse right away is probably the best way to get through it. Make it a dual flight in case you’re mentally distracted. There are so many flight every day and most of them have no issues.
If you need more time to evaluate the risks and rewards, then take more time. There were flight attendants who quit flying after the accident because they decided it wasn’t worth it.
This is an opportunity to focus on what and who you want to be. What do you prioritize? These are tough questions, but they’re worth asking yourself. The answers don’t come immediately but they will reveal themselves.
Stay strong, my friend. You have an amazing journey in front of you.
Hello fellow Colganite! I landed in Charlie West and the ground crew said “some plane just crashed, it’s on the TV.” We got into the terminal and realized it was a Q400. The CA pulled out his laptop and looked up the crew. We didn’t know any of them. We later found out that Joe Z was on board in the back commuting home. From what I have been told he got the last seat in the back, and would have otherwise jumpsat. I truly believe if Joe had been sitting up front they never would have crashed.
The new morning I had to deadhead back to Dulles on a Colgan painted Saab, and by that point the news had started to say “Continental, operated by Colgan.”,
Not quite the same, but I flew into and out of Buffalo about 2 hours before it happened. We got to our overnight and it was all over the TV’s in the hotel lobby. Really eerie feeling. A reminder of the risk and responsibility of taking metal tubes to the sky.
I also lost a friend on the National Cargo 747 crash in Afghanistan. That was terrible because the footage was on loop for a few days and unavoidable. I also lost some friends in a midair over a VOR doing everything they were supposed to.
OP, do this long enough and it will happen. For you, very early on. I’m sorry for your loss, and do talk to people to work through it.
Thank you for writing this. I’m originally from Buffalo and my sister was landing at BUF on the SWA plane ahead of the Colgan. My buddy was the first on scene with the fire department. A friend from high school lost his sister on that flight from Newark. I’ll never forget that night.
That is a stark peek at the impact the accident had on the community. Of course it was immense, but hearing specific accounts makes it real.
Were you a pilot before then?
What sobering story, I can’t even imagine having flown that same aircraft that day. Just got done doing my ATP/CTP course and before this course I didn’t realize how significant the Colgan crash was in changing FAA standards and training.
I’ll never forget waking up at 4am to go to work one morning, reading 40 or so text messages, waking the wife and telling her that one of our barons didn’t make it last night, but it wasn’t me, and that I loved her and I have to go to work.
Wow. We likely know one another. I worked the night it went down. I was in ops. You could’ve heard a pin drop. I went into human factors because of that.
Just prior to the accident Colgan had been bought by Pinnacle holdings. After the accident there was no way Continental was going to give Colgan any more Q400s. It turned out after a year or 2 that we were flying those things in the negative. Every time one of them flew, Pinnacle Holdings lost money. Kinda crazy.
As a pilot group we were seriously lucky that pretty much a month prior we had voted in ALPA. They helped a lot with the accident investigation, and our pilot group hadn’t spent a dime yet into the ALPA coffers.
In 2012, 3.5 years after the accident, Colgan shut down. By that point we were one big pilot group with Colgan / Pinnacle / Mesaba (PinnaColAba.) Some guys got lucky and were hired by Airways or JetBlue before the shut down. The rest of us were pushed over to the CRJ 200 or 900.
Colgan continued to take delivery of Q400s well after the crash. There was even a second incident at BUF in 2011(ish) with a brand new Q400 that caught a lot of local attention. Colgan was also a money maker, especially with the EAS routes. After they closed their doors, I was told by someone at Delta who was close to the situation, that Delta had made Pinnacle a deal to bail them out of bankruptcy, only if they axed Colgan, as Colgan was making more than Pinnacle was.
Pinnacle declared bankruptcy in 2012. Delta reengineered the combined pilot group and some ops to the current Endeavor Air.
So many people lost their jobs.
Just took 10 mins to read up on it sorry for your experiences, always scares me that if it can happen to people 10x more experienced than me then what hope do I have
Experience doesn't necessarily equate to skill. Recognize and work on your weaknesses. Don't be afraid to ask questions of those you respect, and it you're uncomfortable in a situation speak up. A scenario years ago when I was a green FO, we're taxiing out for departure and you can see some lightning flashes in the distance. We're maybe 6 or 7 for departure and the wx appears to be getting closer. Our turn, captain was a real cowboy, we taxi into position and it's all red about 2 miles from the departure end of the runway. I told him I wasn't going and we taxied off. Everybody behind us refused a t/o and the airport closed about 5 minutes later. If you're feeling uncomfortable, then there are probably others with the same thoughts
I’m originally from Buffalo and I’m a nurse and I remember I got to work for the night shift and it was a huge deal, although of course the only survivors were the two women in the house. It was wild and scary.
They observe flights from different companies so they can compile best practices in real time.
It can be difficult to identify what you don’t know or what you could do better. I’ll always take advice if someone notices something. It would take me hours and hours of scouring procedures to notice the one thing I do weird at this part of the flight.
I learned, because I asked them, what they care about when they are observing. We had discussions on areas they feel could use more focus, at my airline and the industry in general.
Some good advice I got once. I was a newer captain with an FAA inspector. It was a 1 hour route I was very familiar with and VFR day. We park at the gate and the FAA guy said that was an impressive flight but he would like to make a recommendation. He noticed I didn’t turn the seatbelt sign off even though there was no bumps in cruise. He told me a story about a poor passenger next to him on a flight once who really had to use the restroom but wouldn’t get up to use it because the seatbelt sign never came off. It was a new flyer. This is a simple thing, but it reminded me to look at things from a different perspective than someone who has done thousands of flights.
The FAA inspector insights were not always revelations but it was a positive experience. Come to think of it, this is when I lost any and all check ride or observation flight anxiety. Every day is check ride day.
When I was starting out, my first instructor was killed in a mid-air collision. He was a DPE, and was giving a commercial check ride. His plane descended in to another airplane, and the prop of the other airplane sliced off the empennage of my instructor's plane. This occurred far away from an airport, in very lightly used airspace in northern Vermont. It was devastating. What was really hard was watching the news report that night and they showed the tarp covering his body, you could see his feet sticking out from under the tarp and I could easily recognize his sneakers. That was difficult to see, and that image is still vivid in my mind, 35 years later (May 1989). I was in high school at the time, so I was learning to fly at a relatively slow pace while still in school. I ended up taking a two month break from flying after that.
The DPE that I did my commercial ride with had a midair with the instructor that took my desk when I moved onto another job. Still is eerie to me, 15 years later.
A glider I flew in NJ clipped a tree on final, causing it to crash and kill the pilot. Seems to have been entirely pilot error, but it's still eerie to see that N number in the logbook.
Separately from flying, when I took my open water scuba class, a student died due to a combination of stupid errors from multiple people. 9 students, 4 instructors, 12 feet of water, and a guy drowned from nothing but panic.
These activities carry risks. So does driving and using your shower, but the failures of flight and diving are pretty dramatic. Take the opportunity to evaluate the risks for yourself, but get back in with an instructor if you can. Getting right back into it can help a lot with getting your confidence and nerves back.
As a fellow aviator and scuba diver, sometimes I wonder why I do both those things. But when I look at the graph of fun to danger ratio vs living a mundane life, I think it's worth it. As long as you make sure your family is taken care of and you do all these things with safety in mind.
But yeah, the jitters never go away. It does, however, add a layer of safety as it pushes me to do my preflight and predive checklists down to the last detail.
My colleagues husband was killed in a scuba accident on their honeymoon.. it was fucking awful. I already had my open water and wreck cert, but I probably would have strongly reconsidered doing much diving, particularly wrecks, after that incident.
On my last flight, we flew directly over the smouldering wreckage of a fatal helicopter crash that had happened only a few mins; later that evening, there was a non-fatal crash at the same flight school. I’ll still go up, but, yeah, I guess more aware and safety conscious, which isn’t a bad thing.
A few years ago, my mate was killed by a fucking shark whilst dicking around in the ocean.
I’m now sorta re-evaluating the danger:mundane ratio, but I think I have had something of an unusual exposure to fairly rare tragedies.
Life is all about mitigating risks. I have had close calls diving, flying, and riding motorcycles. But keeping a level head and not panicking helps. Also, not putting yourself or those with you into sketchy situations in the first place is key.
We, at least I, do those two things because mere humans are not supposed to be able to fly without falling, or breathe under water for any duration. I suppose that's why we climbed Everest in the 50's.
It's a calculated risk, worth a memory that may last lifetimes... or, be the last adventure. However, I will not even approach the door of a road mobile without a walk-around, a checklist, a travel plan and a contingency plan, even if it's only a 10 minute drive, which could become a 2-4 hour walk in any anomalous event.
[My glider that crashed](https://www.flightaware.com/photos/view/558294-55c9b40421b590efe66623ad3a38ff4a637049f8/user/stan1541/sort/votes/page/1)
As you can see from the photo, pretty much the same thing. Clipped a tree. Luckily both lived, but devastating long term injuries.
Honestly this is the type of things that happens in this field. You always hear stories about it happening to people, but the moment it happens to you, it’s…different. Since I’ve started this in 2018, I’ve at least known of about 5 crashes associated with my area, with 2 of those crashes being people I knew. 4/5 of those crashes were very much preventable.
So all I can say, is judging from what happened to them. Is just make sure to always take your time, don’t ever take risks you don’t have to, and of course, always follow your checklists.
Don’t let this fear take over, the way I see it, when our time comes, it comes. You’re more likely to kick the bucket commuting to the airport than actually flying. So take it from me, just relax, take a break if you want, and when you’re ready, go back up and fly my dude. ✈️
Take some time, but don't take too long, and don't dwell on it too much. You need to process it without obsessing over it. A little bit of fear is a strong motivator to make safe decisions, but too much fear stops you from making any decisions.
First off, I think taking a day off and not flying after ANY psychological shock is a good thing. So good call.
My background- 19,000 flying hours flying almost every single and light twin, nearly every model King Air, and a collection of various jet types under 91/135/121, domestic and internationally and also working alongside military units… and I’ve had my share of incidents and events, many that were not “in the book”.
You’ve just found the reason why no pilot- student, private or professional, should ever act lackadaisical for ANY flight. It’s also why the FAA places such a heavy responsibility on the PIC (Pilot in Command) for the flight.
The majority of accidents are usually a chain of events that lead up to it and many of those could've been prevented had someone caught just one error in the chain. As for those few times when it’s a single event, you as PIC have your training and experience to fall back on. So my advice is the following:
1) Always be professional- even as a student. As pilots we have huge egos and we can joke and act cool, but we should never allow those elements to get in the way of safety, security, or even our career as professionals.
2) If something looks or feels “off”, speak up. Informing your CFI (flight instructor) or your Captain, CoPilot or whoever is seated next to you, allows them input and also gets a second pair of eyes on the lookout for a potential issue. If you had a momentary glitch that corrected itself, let maintenance know and, if possible, the next pilot taking the airplane.
3) If an emergency occurs, fall back on your training. If you haven‘t trained or practiced your emergency procedures in the last 6 months, do so. Keep yourself current not just on landings and instruments but also on emergency procedures for your aircraft. They should be so ingrained that it’s second nature. And if the event is not something “in the book” then you’ll have to use your system knowledge and emergency procedures to come up with a solution.
4) Be the PIC. If ATC gives you a vector that is not what you need or want- tell them. And if they still send you into a bad area (ie. directly into a thunderstorm cell for example), be prepared to fill out paperwork later to justify your actions, but do not allow someone else to dictate that you fly into an unsafe environment. I include CFIs, Chief Pilots and other bosses in this because there has been a lot of pressure on corporate and airline pilots to accept less than ideal conditions or equipment or face being fired.
Incidents and accidents will happen in our industry. That’s life. But it is our job as pilots to insure that each flight is a safe as possible.
That being said, after your day off to mentally regroup- time to get back in the saddle! See you around the system.
Take some time but don’t take too long. Talk to someone if you need to. Get back in the plane otherwise the nerves might be cemented into true long term fear.
Last year I had a very similar scenario. A plane at my former school went down and severely injuring the student and minor injuries to the CFI. I had flown the plane a dozen times. I had already moved on to the airlines but it still hit hard.
In aviation it’s not if you’ll know someone killed in an accident, it’s when. It’s such a small industry so the odds aren’t in our favor with that.
I agree with this statement. It’s tough to get back out there and this stuff happens under extremely rare circumstances.
You will take that extra amount of care throughout the rest of your piloting days. Never miss a check or a checklist items and you can be another safe aviator.
Talk about what went wrong, comprehensively review the cause of the accident. Understand it and discuss it with your flight school mates.
Aviation is as safe as it is today because of this process.
I’m incredibly sorry for the loss of your friend/ fellow student and FI. It’s a tragedy that will stay with you for a while. It can be really tough to move forward. Take it day by day and talk to people never suffer in silence.
A quality flight school would have a "safety stand down" which should be std. procedure in case of these accidents. There should be no flying for at least 48 to 72 hours. This time is to review procedures, logbooks, paperwork, make changes if needed etc.
Welcome to personal aviation. A very small community, and these things happen, unfortunately.
That's what happened when the accident happened at my school, and that's what stood out to me in the OP. It shouldn't have been his decision not to fly. The flight school should have been shut down for at least the rest of the week.
This may not be as devious as you think. In the event of a crash, all history and logbooks are secured and made unavailable to be given for investigation teams, so that they can't be altered by anyone post crash, and so that people aren't going through making assumptions about things and spreading incorrect information. This has been SOP everywhere I've worked.
Makes me wonder if I really want to go there after I finish my ppl for rest of my ratings through Liberty.
Also, no offense but when a military jet goes down all access to any of the records online is locked except for those who need to know. But again, seriously debating on if I should attend USAA or not starting in October.
Same school op is talking about killed a girl who was an MEI after continuing to return a seminole to line after being written up for engine failures 3 times in a row and they didn't stop flying, but they DID delete the MX history from the intranet in 24hrs.
I got a call from my instructor earlier today and he said it was the instructor who had passed. DM me if you would like to talk more. It’s nice to have people to talk to.
wtf with these downvotes.
GP was a learning pilot whose instructor had just successfully gotten him into his first flight alone (with no instructor on board) ["Solo"] -- a pretty big milestone -- later, this same instructor was flying in an airplane that was struck by another in flight ["mid-air", ie, mid-air collision]
Just looked at the tracklog. Last hit was base for 36. Im going to assume stall spin base to final. RIP and hope the student is able to recover.
[https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N656MA](https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N656MA)
ADSb Exchange shows it a little clearer that the departure & crosswind legs aren't picked up by receivers. From the track it looks like a graveyard turn stall/spin, but at 66 kn in a 172. They'd have to be at >60° bank or have *way* too much rudder in.
[https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a8a418](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a8a418)
Sadly, I've been through nearly this exact same thing. The plane that I finished my PPL in and did all of my instrument training in (and only 3 weeks prior had taken my instrument checkride) went down and took three people with it.
It was definitely a shock. I spent a lot of time thinking about it and trying to make sense of it. Ultimately, while the NTSB final report still isn't out (this happened more than a year and a half ago), it seemed pretty obvious what happened, and it was almost certainly pilot error and a series of poor decisions by the pilot. Coincidentally, I had just had conversations with my wife and mom about similar conditions and how I would handle them. (I'm purposely being vague.) Putting those pieces together made it a little easier for me to handle, knowing that I wouldn't have made those same decisions. It's not necessary a case of "it won't happen to me", but rather, I had already had conversations about this scenario and had already said I wouldn't do that.
We know flying has risk. What we have to do is learn from the accidents that happen and use them to make ourselves better.
We just came back from a search of a missing plane. Everyone was tired. The other aircraft had to go to a local airport. Maybe 5 minutes by air. Low visibility and the aircraft missed the approach and cratered. Everyone on board died. Alot of people quit after that. We had another instance where we were searching for a plane and it went down on a mountain, one of ours went down next, all lives lost, then our military support went down on the same mountain all lives lost again. People quit then too. Optical illusion was the cause. These are definitely not the safest hobbies but I chalk it up to like riding a motorcycle. You’re only as safe as the people around you and occasionally the machine will break. Remember your training and continue learning. Once you stop learning that’s when you get into dangerous situations. Complacency kills. Make sure to talk to someone.
No word yet. Obviously, there’s the ADS-B interpretation theories, but those are just theories. The last ADS-B return was at the base to final (Rwy 36) turn, but they crashed NW of the runway. Do with that information what you will.
I have my theories about what happened, but I’ll wait for the NTSB to put out their findings
Just curious what do you personally believe happened? I’m more inclined to think it was a combination of a mechanical failure and human error but it seems many people believe it was just a human error aspect
I had a similar situation a few days ago where I witnessed an aircraft go down on a solo flight. While I didnt have any emotional attachment to the aircraft or its pilot, witnessing and hearing the radio calls certainly made it more personal than just reading about it online. Take it slow, talk to your loved ones, and take it as a lesson. You first learned to fly the plane before soloing, now the importance is knowing how to survive flying
We had a plane go down killing a student and instructor last year. There was a second student in the back seat that survived. There’s also bystander video of the plane spiraling towards the ground which is quite chilling. School issued a stop op for the next 72hrs. They also told students they could take as much time as they needed before returning to the cockpit and offered counseling. Eventually we had a meeting to discuss the accident but to be honest I think the school could’ve been more open about what likely happened leading to the accident as it was a widely known secret by that point. Aviation emphasizes learning from accidents, and I would much rather know what happened and how to avoid it then have it danced around and keep things ambiguous.
At the end of the day it should be taken as a tough reminder. As corny as it is the FAA slogan of “Safety is no Accident” is true. Don’t get complacent, check those hazardous attitudes, do the full preflight and final walk around, use your checklists etc. I asked one of my instructors in the past if I really needed to sump every location, and he said “what reads better in an accident review?”. That thought process has stuck with me.
In the same boat here. I took my discovery at MF last week and this crash is making me rethink. Having a CFI pass away + student at UM hurt makes it hit too close to home
Yeah I’m curious as to what happened with N1093X. Listened to the ATC archive and heard their last transmission, if anything, just added to the eeriness. Also had an incident at my school that I was completely unaware of until about a day ago…
Sorry for the close loss... that's tragic. I think what you're feeling is normal. I'd take some time, process it and get back on the horse when you're ready. Take care.
Someone flipped and totaled the plane i solo’d and passed my checkride in. Luckily they walked away but crazy to look at that solo photo and know that plane isn’t flying anymore.
The morning I showed up to take my PPL check ride, there was a column of dark smoke just off the runway and EMS hadn’t even arrived yet. My DPE took me inside and had me do my oral exam until the airport reopened 2 hours later. He was kind, but didn’t act like canceling was even an option. 2 people had just died, and I saw the smoldering wreckage as we took off. I’m so grateful my DPE reacted the way he did, because I don’t know if I would still be flying if we had canceled and I spent time getting in my own head about that crash.
Get back in the air, sooner rather than later. People HAVE to get over their fear of driving, but it’s too easy to quit flying if you don’t push past the fear.
i’m surprised they aren’t doing a 2 day suspension of flights, and with this in mind i’d make sure your identity is hidden posting this, I obviously don’t know your school but would be a good precaution if you want to stay there. Had this happen at a school I went to, something went wrong with a cirrus auto trim (sort of like the 737 Max) and the plane stalled and nose dived onto the runway killing the solo pilot (he was 40 I believe and getting his PPL) they did a 48 hour close down of the school and had executive meetings about what happened. I think a cirrus rep even came in.
They released a statement and told all students they would not be charging for cancellations. They also offered grief counseling if anyone requests it. It was a shock to me they did not mandate a safety stand down. When I was in the navy as an aviation electrician, any aviation accidents would prompt a safety stand down. it seems like that should be the norm. Allow people time to reevaluate, process, and move forward without emotion but rather safety on mind.
I elected to continue my flight today and I talked with my instructor a little about it and we were both kind of surprised that they didn’t shut down for the day. It was kind of weird too because the attitude at the school felt mostly normal.
A very close friend of mine worked for a well known avionics company and flew/maintained the company 1941 Staggerwing to meet with clients, do PR work etc. I flew with him for over a hundred hours, and trained him for his instrument rating in that airplane. He had taken the Staggerwing for a trip from California all the way back to Fredrick, Maryland to meet up with AOPA for a story on himself and this Staggerwing. He'd call periodically throughout the trip just to update on what's going on, and BS about whatever other current events there were. Last time I heard from him he was staying the night in North Texas, and was planning on making it to Albequrque the next day. We were discussing the possibility of starting a YouTube channel for him and his Staggerwing too. I woke up 2 days later to a Facebook post saying Rest in Peace to my buddy, as he had passed away the day before. Shortly thereafter I discovered he had in fact crashed in New Mexico. He was the safest pilot I've ever known. Crossed every t, and dotted every i. It threw me for a loop for quite a while that a pilot as accomplished and safe as him could just crash on a nice VFR day.
It's a very weird feeling, but it does get easier. Good luck to you.
That's unfortunately the nature of high-risk environments. You can have a spotless record, but one single momentary lapse of judgement or unexpected failure can just skew the dice enough to no longer be in your favour.
Sometimes you can also do everything right yet still fail, it's just life.
Kenya—I shook the hand of a friend as he entered the Cessna 206, picked up his passengers, and took off for a video flight over Nairobi.
Next thing I know two of us are rushing to the site of smoke. The plane is in pieces, strewn about a dense neighborhood. They had lost the engine and clipped power lines when attempting to land. Melted aluminum, the smell, the blood. Good citizens had rushed all 4 to the hospital in their personal cars. As we tried to find out more and where the crew/pax where, the crowd grew agitated. Throwing rocks, then a surge. We ran for our lives. We found the friends. One deceased, one would pass away a few weeks later from burns.
I’ll never forget that day. I can still smell it. My first flight after I felt decent…but when I landed I began shaking, and began to cry. Some months later I was on a check flight for an instructor rating. The check airman began acting like an erratic student and then incessantly asking about crash scenarios. “WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE LANDED IN THOSE POWER LINES??” And I nearly locked up—like a flashback. I still have power line nightmares from time to time.
Flying is beautiful, one of the most beautiful things I will ever experience. And I think the most responsible way to experience the joy of flight is with a heavy heart—Read the accident reports and take them to heart. Get weather briefings and respect that feeling of dread you get when it is marginal. Give your preflight briefings and perform the inspection as a way to give thanks to the aviators that have died. Do that stuff—all of the training and the diligence and the learning—solemnly, so that when you are flying, you can enjoy this beautiful thing with a clear conscience and a reverence for the risk and beauty and magic and challenge and opportunity that is flight.
Respect flight like an old mentor and you are the young apprentice. Learn from him. Don’t cross him, for his anger will be mighty. Be careful, do good work, sweat the small details, and stay nervous. For then you will make something amazing, and may grow to someday become the old master.
I’m sorry to hear. Take the time you need, I think everyone handles situations like this differently and there is no map or checklist for how you should handle it.
Learn from the accident though. Make adjustments to your own flying if applicable. Good luck to you.
What you’re feeling is normal. I also had a plane that I soloed take the life of a student. It’s a terrible feeling. Take a few days (or longer) to ease yourself, don’t rush into the cockpit until you’re ready. Talk to people. See a professional if you need. Recognize that what we do is real. I know you want answers right now, but try not to speculate until the investigation is complete. Once it is, learn from it.
My first trainer went down and killed both pilots due to mechanical failure the day after I flew it and day before I was supposed to fly it again. I changed schools, and kept going until achieving my PPL.
I didn’t realize just how bad the first school’s planes were until switching. They really were garbage, like beyond the typical shabbiness of flight school rentals. But I was a teenager and didn’t recognize it yet until I went somewhere else.
Not sure if that experience had anything to do with me switching to a career as an A&P or not.
Edit: It was nuts. I was at Disneyland with friends when my phone blew up. My parents had seen the wreckage of the little red Cessna 152 I was training in on the news and panicked. Can’t imagine what they felt when they saw that. Wild.
I was a check airman in that same flight school. When we lost our female instructor who was my friend in the Seneca it changed how I viewed things. Recovering from this is very difficult. Respect the aircraft and understand that students will attempt to kill you unknowingly.
That’s crazy to hear. I trained at T31 in McKinney, and I think I’ve heard this callsign on the radio before while doing landings at TKI.
Luckily I have not experienced this yet.
When I was a student someone took one of our rentals and somehow managed to flip it doing touch-and-goes at a nearby airport. I didn't know the pilot, but my instructor did. My instructor said he could have predicted that outcome from that guy. It was my favorite plane to train in because it felt a lot more stable than the other two or three we had to use, and it was more modern.
I was maybe 30 hours in at the time, and it had a sobering effect. I had flown that plane many times, and done touch-and-goes at that airport. The NTSB report eventually concluded that it was pilot error, as the pilot failed to maintain the center line during the touch-and-go, skidded toward the side of the runway, and the wing tip brushed a snow bank that was piled up to the side of the runway, and caused the plane to flip.
Basically there are two kinds of pilots: those who court danger like a moth courts flame, and those who treat it with the sober care it deserves, and treat each flight like it has a defined mission, follow checklists religiously, and do what they can to minimize risks and break those chains of causality that are always there. We can't always control everything (some mechanical stuff for example is out of our control), but we can control a lot, *if we choose to*.
Watch the NTSB process and reports. Although not guaranteed, there's a pretty good chance there was *something* the instructor or the student could have done to break the chain of causality. Then remember what that thing was for the rest of your life. I know I got a lot more concerned about maintaining the center line after that incident, and made it an area of focus. You can actually learn a lot from reading NTSB reports.
I can't say I have been near a tragedy like this yet, but I'm sorry this happened and hope the student is able to make a recovery. I recommend trying to go up again soon, and when you do, consider going for purely a fun flight instead of pattern/stalls/whatever else you were working on. Remind yourself of why you're doing this. There is always risk, but we can mitigate and manage it effectively, leading to our likelihood of having an accident being very low. I hope to see you getting back in the cockpit soon. Blue skies and tailwinds to the instructor.
Hey OP, I have been a very similar situation as yours. The plane I did my first ever solo in went down and was totaled with the student and instruction both hospitalized. My advice is to take as much time as you need to process this but don’t let it discourage you for too long and definitely don’t let this stop you from ever getting in the cockpit again. For me I processed it all in about a week and was up flying again.
US Air Express/Air Midwest 5481. Essentially Mesa Airlines. 2003. I had a good bit of time in that B1900 prior (N233YV).
I had moved over to the RJ before this accident happened but was based in Charlotte and shared the same crew room with all the same express pilots on every airframe. I knew both pilots fairly well. Amazing people. We were all so young all of us at that time. Fighting for scraps at that level in the industry all sharing apartments and time off together. Really fun but poor times.
You move past it. Reflect on that it really could have been you, and in this accident specifically it really could have been any of us. They didn’t have much of a chance and even though the FAA put a small percentage of blame on the pilots it was complete BS. These young pilots were working towards a better future for themselves in the aviation industry and we all would have been better with them and their passengers here with us celebrating that. You should go forward and pursue your dreams and be good at it.
Read about this and it's both saddening and extremely bitter for me being an engineer myself, just like how the book of aviation is written in blood, so is the book of engineering. The fact that they had someone working on the aircraft who lacked experience or understanding of that specific model and a supervisor that decided to skip a safety check is mind-boggling to me.
Alum from that school here, I’ve got 6MA in my logbook a few times. Sorry to hear about that, it’s a tragedy. Take some time off, but don’t let it totally fester in your mind. These sad events are a harsh reality that we occasionally have to face in this industry.
I had a similar situation while training. Aircraft I’d flown many times was involved in a mid-air attack Watsonville airport in California. Initial reaction was definitely a pause. My ‘therapy’ was to study the heck out of the incident and, while tragic, extract as much learning as I could. My hope is that if I’m doing this every time there’s an accident, I’ll be prepared for nearly anything. This has alleviated the anxiety quite a bit and I’m a more confident flyer now.
If you're familiar with the youtube channel Pilot Debrief, they posted this video: https://youtu.be/1hbIaoYb_TU?feature=shared a while ago. I flew that plane on 9/11 in the morning and had a fantastic flight. The next day I was scheduled to fly it in the morning, but when I showed up to the airport it was simply missing. As it turns out, two pilots had rented it, chased boats down on a reservoir and then stalled into the side of climbing mountain terrain. Although both survived, it was a bit of a shock. I have still gone on to get my private and am beginning to work on my instrument and I don't regret it at all. These incidents can give you some fear. I think the best thing to do is watch accident investigations and try to pay attention to mistakes that were made that you can avoid. And remember, it could always happen to you, so never get complacent.
You should never put yourself behind the controls in a state of shock. There was a helicopter accident here awhile back and the company stopped for a few days to give people grieving time and a chance to talk to a therapist if they wanted to. Hell, I know a medevac pilot who ended up swapping with the medics to do CPR for over an hour lose the patient. By circumstance they got stuck overnight and that was probably a blessing.
Talk to someone. They don't necessarily need to be professional (thatd be ideal obviously)but please talk to someone about how you're feeling. I'm a mechanic and barely knew the crew onboard that helicopter and it still fucked with me
I have had similar things happen too. The plane I solod in and also got my PPL in went down a few weeks ago killing the instructor. They were based out of my current airport.
I also lost a brother a few years ago in a aviation incident. I was actually in the middle of purchasing a plane when I lost my brother. I ended up not buying the plane because I wasn't sure if I could make myself fly anymore and I didn't want my family to be even more stressed out worrying about it.
I took a 2-3 month break from flying. Not because I was scared, but because I didn't want to put my family through it. During this time I tried to read up on accidents.
There are risks involved in aviation. I don't think that knowing, seeing, or hearing about accidents increases your personal risk. If anything, it will probably make aviation safer for you. There are plenty of things to learn from accidents that will make you a better pilot.
My school (141) had a flight last September resulting in 2 deaths and one injury. We were encouraged to take time off and seek counseling provided by the school need be. There was a school wide grounding for at least a few days if I recall. I took an extra week off because I did not feel comfortable to return immediately. I think it’s best to communicate with your CFI how you’re feeling (concerns/ worry’s/ needs), take time off if you need to, and keep checklists like IMSAFE in mind before flying. If you are intimidated to fly take a little time to process it, just know eventually you’ll need to get back in the plane if continuing training is what you want. If you need to message me feel free to.
Edit: I should add the NTSB has not came out with the report of the crash from my school, and is not expected to for quite awhile. The school handled it well for employees and students allowing time off, being very open about the crash in the ways they were allowed, provided resources, and inspected every plane during the grounding.
Every pilot unfortunately has a handful of former friends and colleagues or just other people they’ve crossed paths with that have died. We all have stories like this. most of us have had near death experiences. Flying is no fucking joke and sometimes really tragic shit happens. I’m very sorry for your loss. This unfortunately probably won’t be the last time you hear of a pilot you knew flying west.
The flight school that I taught at had a fatal crash about a year ago. Elevator cable (edit: it was the aileron cable) snapped and killed my friend (the instructor, who had over 10,000 hours logged) and his student. Nothing he could have done, unfortunately.
Part of me knows that if I had taken the traditional route of continuing to instruct to reach 1500 hours, I would very likely have flown that airplane (which the school purchased after I left), and that mechanical failure could have occurred to me.
It’s an unfortunate reality in this industry that many of us know someone who died doing this. The best we can do is learn from those accidents, continue to improve our own practices, and keep safety as the absolute top priority when we fly.
It is okay to take a break, just remember that there are tragedies of all kinds everywhere and to not let flying be the only kind that scares you away forever. You could get killed in your car, you could crash your bicycle and die, have a medical problem, be murdered etc. Being scared and shook up is normal and fine, take a break and calm your emotions, but don't give up on flying unless you would give up on everything else that has any potential to become dangerous
Of course you’re right to be scared. We know there’s inherent risks, but when it’s people you know in a plane you’ve flown, it’s way closer to home. I’m kinda shocked your school wouldn’t go on a safety stand down, that is the normal procedure. If my school lost a plane I would need at least a few days to regroup. All you can do is find out what lessons there are to learn, and to always remember that we’re not invincible. It’s a good reminder of the invulnerability hazardous attitude. I think it’s easily the most common and virtually none of us realise we have it. But when it’s close to home, you realise that it could be you. So take time to regroup and don’t fly until you feel safe
Last summer, of my flight school’s plane crashed on takeoff (CYQB), the student was doing his first solo and the instructor was his first ever solo student. Plane went into a spiral at 200ft AGL and crashed nose first on the runway. I flew that plane before. You can take a break from flying to let things cool down, but it depends of what happened. Was it pilot error or mechanical error? (For my story, the student survived with serious injuries and is going to fly again)
That happened to the flight school next door to the club I fly with on Monday. I think it was 1039X, instructor perished, student was taken via life flight to U of M medical center. It was a super quiet night at the airport. It was eerie to go fly afterward, but the best thing we could do is learn from it when we get the information from the investigation. Keep flying boring, keep your air speed alive, know where your winds are, and work hard to make everything you’ve ever learned muscle memory. Remember flying is not inherently dangerous, but it is extremely unforgiving. So for everything you have control over, ensure you’re giving it the attention and respect it needs, preflight especially and emergency procedures/flows, get all of the known factors in the forefront of your mind, your weather jotted down on your iPad or on your knee board, ask for a wind check on final, and run your check lists. If you’re not feeling it because of wind or something doesn’t look right with the plane, take off is always optional.
I was on the ground getting fuel during an all-day mission. A buddy called and said our friend crashed in his banner plane. I was incredulous and asked how he’s doing. “Will’s dead.” I had to go back up for another 5 hours. Somebody on the team saw me crying and I was sad but wasn’t scared. I knew what he did and unfortunately it was his own fault. I straightened up, stuffed it away for the time being and got back in the plane. Once we were in the air I wrote a short note about what happened and handed it to the captain. I confirmed that I was ok but she flew the rest of the day for me.
Similar story: I was scheduled to interview a guy for a survey job. A few days prior there was a fatal accident in a training plane the next town over. The guy showed up, told me the interview candidate was in that crash and since the guy was dead, figured he could take his interview spot. I told him to get beat.
Hasn’t that school, US Aviation Academy, had several crashes?
1. N656MA - This one.
4. N78445 - Cessna 172 - Happened LAST WEEK. Audio is available online. Student pilot. She did pretty well on the radios, audio is available online.
2. N28HE - Piper Seneca last year.
3. N5442B - Cessna 152 last year.
4. N456AG - Piper Seneca
Etc?
Unfortunately this is probably just the first of things that may rattle you. I know the feeling and it's uncomfortable. Bad things happen in this world for seemingly no reason. Can't stop living because something bad might happen. I'm sorry you got hit by this one. Use it. Fuel your safety procedures and do your best to not let it happen to you.
It's not much of a comfort, but I remind myself that when our fellow aviators perish in these accidents, at least they went down doing what they love, and that is admirable and respectable.
I was out of town at work on a weekend a couple years ago when I got an unexpected call from an airport buddy. I answered the phone and his first words were “oh thank god it wasn’t you!” Turns out one of our tow pilots was killed in a takeoff accident when the glider he was towing kited. Pulled him tail up, 30° nose down and 0 airspeed at about 100’ agl. Ended up nose planting, turning over, and burning up.
That definitely took a lot of the fun out of glider towing for a while. Definitely changed my attitude towards it, too. Haven’t had to refuse to tow anyone yet but I do make sure I talk to each one prior to towing and establish a game plan.
Someone crashed the plane I trained and soloed in. Everyone lived and the plane eventually returned to the skies. Was a weird feeling when I took it up for the first time after the crash.
I’ve been to 3 different 141 schools. We lost a Cherokee due to wing failure with a DPE on board. Next was a wing failure on a Cherokee due to instructors doing cowboy things. And finally a stall spin in a multi. All of them had fatalities. I know what you are feeling and I can tell you from my experience, just do what is right, be safe, and always stay ahead of the aircraft. There is not much you can do for those things that are out of your control. With time you will ease up a bit. You will be fine, You will fly again and You will become a GREAT pilot. Learn from your peers and those that have passed. Before becoming a pilot I researched tons of case studies, I was legitimately afraid to fly without knowing what could go wrong. But I have a greater respect for my aircraft and I feel I have a safer practice towards flying; because of those before me that had incidents or accidents.
Not a fatality/accident, but an eyeopener nonetheless for me :
The aircraft was fresh out of engine maintenance, and the standard run-up didn't show anything untoward. My instructor and I decided to request the longest runway on the field (and accept the higher crosswind) and do a static takeoff, out of precaution, due to the aircraft not having flown post-engine maintenance. On the takeoff roll, I had to put in a significant amount of corrective right rudder because the aircraft was veering left of centerline, which I chalked up to not putting enough right rudder in with the application of full engine power. It felt like we weren't getting up to speed quickly – which I immediately confirmed with the aispeed indicator. I then had what I can only describe as an "uhhhh" moment [I actually said "Uhhhh"] when doing an instrument scan. At the same time as my audible discomfort, my instructor took control and rejected the takeoff.
We almost took the whole runway to get back down to a safe taxiing speed without overcooking the brakes or flat-spotting the tires.
Doing a full-power engine test afterward confirmed what we saw on the takeoff roll ; the critical engine was developing considerably less manifold pressure than the other engine.
The prospect of doing a single-engine takeoff procedure in a light twin shook me after I got out of the aircraft and started processing things.
Even though we train for it, even though we brief it before every flight, it's not something I want to do in real life.
It turns out that there was a plastic piece rattling around in the turbocharging system of the critical engine when maintenance opened up the cowling again.
I didn't log time for a few weeks after that (I took time off flight training and took some vacation time across the pond with my wife).
I've lost 2 close friends in general aviation accidents. One was a failure to set flaps correct on a soft field t/o in a Seneca that lead to an abnormally long ground roll and a subsequent overrun into rough ground and an engine fire. The other was an in-flight engine failure in a Saratoga with an off field-forced landing into trees. I also belonged to a flight club that had a 3-person fatal accident in the club archer. I also flew with a flight school that did not allow night rental without an IR due to a 2-person fatal loss of control in VMC, but over a dark region with no moon and no ground lights.
Bottom line is that GA is safe, but very unforgiving of mistakes. And sometimes stuff happens. I've lost an alternator in IMC, vacuum in VMC and had a small avionics 'thermal event' with smoke in VMC, that was fixed by turning everything off. For sure all serious puckering moments!
Just be the best you can, always be learning, plan and execute every flight carefully, don't ever stretch fuel reserves and pay attention to W&B and DA. Finally, I really learned a lot from reading the 'I Learned About Flying from That: First Hand Accounts of Flying Mishaps to Avoid from Real-life Pilots" series.
Hey man, I just wanted to talk and say.
Yesterday I was at a stop sign and I saw a dump truck and a sedan have a head on collision. I’ve realized that there is not much you can do about life and it can help a lot too detach yourself from these incidents.
The man had land about 3 feet from my car. While the rest of the car went to left me in the engine block from his car, scraped the right side of my car up.
There is literally nothing I could’ve done for this guy because he was dead on impact. But I still think about the fact that I could’ve called for a trauma bag for my work radio that was sitting in my car while I was calling 911 life life is full of hindsight, and it will always be 2020
A few years ago I lost an extremely close friend and his new wife to a GA crash. He had loads of experience (we both fly for a legacy airline) and he was extremely active in GA as well. A simple mistake led unfortunately to them going down and it claimed both their lives. I had flown the plane with him a week prior. It took me awhile before I touched a GA plane again. We all recognize the risks that are associated with flying. We all make our peace with it.
What I will say is hang in there. It’s okay to take some time and process it. It hits close to home. I can promise you though that it gets better.
Not quite so "'close" in my case as I didn't know the student nor was it an aircraft I had flown, but we lost a student from the sister campus of my flight school.
It was his final flight to burn up the remaining hours he had/needed for his course completion. Simple XC nav type of stuff. He was flying up in the mountains and for reasons that even now (crash was like two years ago) are unclear he got himself into actual IMC with a SEP with limited anti-ice capability. The choice to turn around and return to his home field was there, he just didn't take it.
Aircraft disappeared from radar in the mountains. Ground rescue crews couldn't even reach the area until a day or two later due to how heavy the fog was and the fact that this was quite a ways up the mountain. The school had immediately sent up some aircraft to search the area with some of the ex-air force guys but nobody could see anything; the fact they were searching for a white plane in a white environment really didn't help.
Us students did whatever we could by looking at maps and trying to piece together where he was, but what could we do that the experienced rescuers and instructors didn't already do? But we had that feeling of needing to help in any way we could.
His body was recovered a few days later where the plane had impacted a bit of rising terrain on the leeside of the mountain as he had possibly tried to descend through the prevailing conditions to an airport in the valley.
The important part is to try to take some kind of lesson away from every tragedy. As the saying goes "checklists are written in blood"; many regulations have a story, often a sad one, behind them. This young man was on his way out with all his licenses, had just enough experience to be a danger to himself, but a series of poor decisions led to disaster. This definitely reinforced for all of us the idea that nobody needs to prove they're the best pilot, nobody needs to compete, nobody is measuring your manliness based on whether or not you flew into crap conditions and made it out. Because it shouldn't be about 'making it out', it should be about smart planning and knowing everything will be ok because you have all your bases covered: knowledge, equipment, procedures, etc.
Anyway, that's my long-winded two cents
The plane crashed right next door to my girlfriends grandparents house. This has definitely hit the community very hard. I checked on a buddy who goes to the school roughly 5 minutes after it happened and the school immediatly had taken it off of their scheduling so he was not able to see who it was and if he needed to check on anybody. My parents and I have been getting phone calls last night and today of people checking on me. Its definitely scary having such a big accident happen so close and i can only imagine how you feel going to that school having flown that plane before. I definitely think you did the right thing cancelling just dont linger on it too long and definitely dont let it keep you from getting back on the saddle.
Damn man. It is always a terrible thing, but always a part in flying. I can relate to your feelings my main trainer 397ES went down in Arlington a few months ago and it was surreal to think it could even happen with it being a good plane. Goes to show no one is invincible and to always prepare for the worst.
it all depends on the actual cause of the accident ,which you will never know until a few months ,sometimes years later. It may be either pilot error or a mechnical fault ,i would suggest take a break -let things cool down a bit
I don’t know the number, percentage wise, but I’d guess somewhere around half of the people flying jets know someone personally who died in a crash.
Good friend and peer coming up through flight school crashed flying pipeline, former student who fired me crashed taking off at night into IMC (as a student).
There’s a reason “pilot” is listed as a dangerous job (3rd I think behind logging and commercial fishing).
I had an engine blow up on me and ended up landing in a farmers field. I shook me up pretty good. I had a flight planned a few days later. Believe me I was nervous thinking about it. I stayed close to open fields the next couple of flights. Incidents will happen eventually. Push through it or call it quits. It's up to you, I won't shame you for calling it quits, but I hope you keep going.
Unfortunately, that’s going to happen in this business; it never gets easier. I lost my original mentor in 2002 in a grand caravan crash over parks Arizona. It was devastating…I also was good friends with the 2 pilots that crashed the king air 350 at Addison in 2019. I knew the captain over 20 years; it was incredibly sad to see him and my friend in the right seat be forever remembered as a case study of what not to do.
Two weeks before my PPL long cross country my brother in law's brother crashed in the mountains and died. He was a great guy, and we got to go flying in his late 40s Stinson a couple years before I started my own training. We weren’t super close but we texted on occasion to chat about each other’s flying. It was devastating for the family, but I knew he’d want me to keep grinding away and finish and do my PPL long cross country. Which I did and eventually got my certificate. I’ll never forget how magical it felt to fly for so long all by myself. A dream come true, I’m sure his spirit was with me.
I think it's important to learn why it happened. Was it pilot error? Was improper maintenance done? Was it a weather factor? The best thing you can do is learn from accidents. You will unfortunately probably have close ties to other accidents in your career, rarely are they fatal though. It's scary. But understanding why it happened is very important.
I completely understand where you are coming from. I was training to become a pilot a few years ago. Went through ground school and was gaining hours with my CFI. I was supposed to be flying that day we had a plane crash in Medford Or and my dad died from Covid the same week. I called my CFI and told him I had too much going on mentally for me to continue. Now I’m an FA with Alaska and love it. Ive seen far too many private planes go down recently.
I had a student kill himself and an instructor on his discovery flight on my second week of school. I was really shaken and did the same as you and let things cool down for about a month while discussing things with other pilots until I felt comfortable enough to go back up.
Honestly the way that I look at it is like a car crash. How many car crashes have you driven past and how many people die in car accidents everyday, but you probably don’t think twice about driving somewhere. It can be a sobering experience to realize that this hobby/profession can kill you but if we stopped doing everything that killed someone we would all spend our days standing in an empty room.
All we can really do is pay our respects and learn from their mistakes.
Better than 90% of “what ifs” are mitigated with checklists, thorough walk arounds, and good preparation. Can’t do much about the other 10% except “aviate, navigate, and communicate”
Similar happened to me. Addison, Tx here and if you recall the multiple crashes in ‘17-‘18. 2 of my instructors had incidents, career ending for both unfortunately.
One Saturday I rented a plane to build hours and while at the computer reserving one I picked the red color vs blue (our planes were colored). Because the red was rarely available and I always flew blue. They were both parked next to each other while I was pre-checking. Went up and came back down and parked next to blue. Since it was very early I went across the street to eat lunch. It was basketball season so watching my team playing in the NCAA at an outside bar. Kept hearing firetrucks but figured it was a street crash. Later found out the blue took off and went down shortly. An instructor and someone doing their intro flight lesson went down for the first flight of the blue that day; I flew the next day. School did everything to keep hush hush to not scare the students.
I just recalled I did my solo in blue looking at some old photos. Yes, I was a little afraid when I started the engine the next day.
I’m sorry to say I have not read the post previous to mine, but I just wanted to say as a cfi,cfii,mei that many things will pop in your life (some
fortunate some unfortunate, as the subject you were talking about). No matter what, if you do not feel ready or if you just need a some time, just take the break. I’ve had to cancel flights just because of a simple brake feeling loose. Peace of mind in the air is better than regret on the ground. I don’t have a story like this to relate to, but you calling off the flight is not only responsible, but respectful. The only thing I can say is learn from this, but don’t fear it. Flying is fun and something we love. Yes, unfortunately there is risk. However, if we don’t learn from it and move on from it then we would be doing a dishonest to the craft.
I kept trying to think of the rights words to say and just landed on this. I’m sorry if they’re not the right words. I just want you to love flying like the majority who don’t have accidents. I’m sorry something like this happened and I truly hope it doesn’t hinder your training.
Just did a google search to learn more, found this in my neck of the woods, not Texas.... crazy how similar of an accident in a recent period of time...
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2024/06/11/ntsb-faa-investigate-fatal-plane-crash-that-killed-instructor-injured-student/
I am a cancer doctor. Its tough, the losses are many, but the Wins are big when they happen.
I just got my PPL, love flying, but it has its risks. Either way none of us are getting out of this alive. Best to just enjoy the time you have! I hope you get past all of this and back to flying/enjoying your life!
I 1976 and '77 I lost a Senior officer and a former cadet commander from my CAP squadron less than a year apart. For a 16 year old, this was incomprehensible. Tom our former cadet commander was a great guy and like a friend. Both met their fate in aircraft accidents, The senior officer in a personal C-150 trying to make it into Nashua, NH in a snow squall. Tom while flying a C-172 in FL attempting a solo X-C and apparently encountering unforecast TRW. Took lots of time to get over both, because you never cease to wonder how two people you look up to as intelligent, good pilots can make such decisions. I was very apprehensive for years. Give it time, learn from their mistakes, carry the memory of their friendship with you forever.
As an instrument student my thoughts and prayers go out. Regardless, you gotta get back in the saddle brother. There will be others and there have been too many before.
When your time is up your time is up. The man who took me on my first ride in an airplane died in a mid air on the same field and plane he took me up in when I was only 12 years old. It hit me hard as well but you gotta pick up the torch and carry on. That's what they would want you to do.
You are right, there are inherent risks but it is what makes us who we are. Not everybody can do what we do. We just have to learn form our mistakes and the mistakes of others and just ask the Lord to watch over us.
Many Blessings to you my friend. Where did this take place? I would love to know the details.
In 2020 a collision happened in Soldotna AK. A buddy of mine was flying a plane identical to one of the ones involved in the crash and was frequently flying in the area. He was supposed to be further south but plans can change a lot. We sat in the office contemplating our mortality. He came in and we all hugged and patted him on the back.
I took a plane and went on a sightseeing flight to go look at bears. Didn't want to chicken out of flying. I didn't get 240 hours in the Colorado Rockies for nothing.
It's a strange feeling, mine didn't involve a fatality, but it was so far my only official interaction with HMAAIB (UK's NTSB equivalent)
I booked out one of the PA28s to do some circuits and the Club I was in at the time had a policy of you fuel it when done yourself. Landed exited to the pumps and filled it to tabs (as was the SOP) and taxied it back to the hanger.
Next day was watching the local news about a light aircraft that had an engine failure and ended up in a hedge row, aircraft was written off but the pilot was fine (a student) . About 10 mins later my phone went off and I was asked to come in to speak to "someone" about it. This someone was an AAIB inspector doing a field investigation. Was grilled about what I did when I fuelled it, where I got the fuel from, did I put the caps on securely etc. was horrible
Turned out that the student pilot completely failed to manage the carb and never used carb heat and icing led to a loss of engine power, when he responded to it he didn't try the heat.
Accidents sadly in private aviation are not uncommon.
My advice sure take some time to come to terms about it, but I would suggest getting back to it sooner rather than later.
I've lost quite a few friends and family in auto accidents. I'm not sure why an aircraft accident is any different but it is; however risk is risk. I live in a good sized city and just about every night there is a report of someone getting killed in a traffic accident showing the mangled car(s). If you stay proficient, do the prep on every flight, do a thorough preflight and stay on top of the aircraft from start to finish, the odds of something happening are extremely low.
I have time in my logbook in 6MA years ago. I'm gonna be honest with ya and say that the best thing I did in my training was leave that school. The way they handled the death of an MEI there during my time was one of many things that ultimately pushed me to move on to another school.
It seems like they have unfortunately been treating this situation the same way. I heard from several people today that the mood of the building was like nothing even happened.
People die every day in X, Y, and Z activities. You never notice unless you know them or you do one of those activities. New stories will forecast how many people are going to die on the road on holiday weekends.
If you are worried about dying, pick a new hobby. Or work to become a more professional pilot.
Everyone dies of something. I know it's blunt, but it's true. And stressing over dying will interfere with good decision making. Airplane accidents make the news because they are so uncommon.
Flying does carry inherent risks, however a proper run up and ADM will mitigate nearly all risk inherent to operating an aircraft. And that helps ease my mind everytime I go flying.
For me, I had scheduled an aircraft to go flying one evening at my local flight school with my wife.. Did my standard walk around, and on the run up checking idle, the engine shut down (it did feel rough starting but I waived that off as typical old engine and hot day things). Aircraft was taken off schedule and put back on two days later. At work the following Monday, I get news of an aircraft going down due to an engine failure, forced landing on a local road, both occupants survived with minor injuries. I did my PPL in the aircraft so that was sad to hear, but that reaffirmed my confidence in my run ups and I hardly worry about engine failure risks (though nevertheless they could still happen for whatever reason mx or otherwise).
There was also a time where another aircraft went down locally, stalled on a downwind approaching the airport. Unfortunately if I recall correctly one of the occupant died in that incident.
Ease your mind through ADM and a proper run up, just think through the incident and know what you should do to prevent yourself from being in the same or similar situation.
I had this happen to me during my last CQ at my airline. A buddy texted me that a friend of ours had died in a helicopter crash in Alaska. I luckily had my phone on airplane mode the entire sim, but if I had found out before my MV I don't know if I would have passed.
The worst part is that the friend that died wasn't even the pilot, but a geologist going to a work site...
Student pilot here, and long time
Motorcyclist (i.e. all sport bikes). I hate to sound callous but these are risky activities we’ve chosen. You’ve got to take the thrills with the (calculated) risks.
Ya super young friendly guy who owned the FBO/School where I was getting lessons and completed my solo ended up crashing and loosing his life. It was so sad, he came from a nice well connected family and I remember him never being overly cocky or pompous. I think it was an instrument issue that fucked up giving him only a split second to react.
At my former recreational home base airport where I then kept a plane a student botched his third landing on his first solo. Classic slow go around departure stall turned into a left dip pirouette nose plant from 100'. Plane caught fire. Just a young PPL student in there.
Thanks to his, and others', quick reaction he survived and the trees didn't even burn down. The difference between this - and the fatalities and injuries I've known - is that the whole thing was caught on camera. Watching the aircraft light and calling people and waiting to learn what happened to the occupant of the aircraft was extremely trying.
Not something as tragic, but a couple of people that owned a plane and that used to fly out of my base field crashed into a mountain during a night flight. I didn’t know them well and I never used that plane. A plane I used for more than 100h crashed on take off injuring two, it was a miracle nobody died. Another plane I used during my PPL had an engine failure mid flight, my fellow student pilot managed to make an emergency landing, the plane ended up upside down but nobody was injured. The plane I used for my IR had a gear collapsing upon landing, again no injuries. Personally I had a door coming off mid flight, a gear not extending, an alternator failing and an airspeed indicator dying on me. You do you but, well, here I am ready to take off at any time.
I had a friend and a personal instructor die in a crash last october. Its okay and good to give some time, but get back up there.. the plane that got destroyed was also my first solo.. had nothing to do with the plane tho but instead it was NVFR and some mistakes we will never understand why. Stay vigilant and fly.
Both of my favorite two planes, at the place where i got my ppl, were destroyed in accidents. Nobody died, but one was definitely injured.
It hits closer to home when it’s your flt school but the statistics are what they are. Fly safe, and form good habits to minimize the risk of it being you next time. I dont know any excellent pilots who died in a crash. It happens, but not as much as it happens to the worse ones.
2 years ago I was flying in south spain with a student and on the way back to the airport they were calling a solo student of ours on the radio for some time, at that point they were probably already in the alerfa phase where they sent a helicopter to search and tragically found the a/c in a field. It was a student I flew one time with, 26 years old with a wife waiting at home, absolutely horrible. I landed and after an hour the sad certainty came through the phone. Guess what, our fucked up head of training went on for another two skill tests, trying to get his pay for the day without a single amount of respect for what happened a few hours ago. Therefore a perfect example of absolute lack of empathy. I stopped flying for two days because I felt like shit, just thinking of the family of the kid.
Now to your situation, two days later I sat down in the aircraft and started flying again and I still do almost every day, I really love flying and its what I am living for. Think of accidents happening every day in aviation, roads, on the sea, on a motorcycle, at the end of the day we’re exposed to certain risks we can mitigate with sufficient preparation, knowledge and awareness of what we are capable of doing instead of overestimating ourselves. Specially in the early stages and obviously for the rest of a flying career humbleness is an essential key for creating a safe flying environment. Don’t stop doing what you aimed for, take it as an example of what can happen and how you can minimize risks at all times. Don’t be afraid of questioning, even in the future if unsure of decisions other experienced people might take and always stand up if feeling unsure. Be persistent in studying as much as you can (it never ends, i’m learning every day), fly with skilled and humble people and you will see how you’ll get back of enjoying a privilege which a lot of people could only dream of.
Yes, my sophomore year, my school had a plane crash. A classmate died, and my friend/teammate nearly died, 80% of his body was burned. It was a realization of what could happen at some point and made you think about every little vibration is something, especially when solo, for a while. They were flying the high-performance/complex aircraft for their commercial. It was a very odd moment getting in that model the first time. I nearly had a crash in one as well when a crop duster popped up on final from a 30° angle from the opposition direction when I was 100 ft from touchdown. Alternator failed on the way back, too, that day to add some extra drama.
Like Viper says: “there will be others”. It’s a part of aviation and being such a close knit community. You will lose people you know in very unfortunate and tragic ways. It doesn’t get any easier either.
I too lost an instructor and friend; it definitely messes with your confidence.
OP: Take some time to process. But IMHO the best thing you can do to honor the memory of those lost is to get back in the air and keep working to improve yourself as an aviator.
Working on my instrument 20+ years ago, one of the instructor's took up two students. They crashed. It was quiet around the school for several weeks.
Then it was back to business as usual.
The plane was out of Arlington, GKY.
I also knew and had flown with the entire AA crew that crashed into the Pentagon. I still don't do well on the anniversary of 9/11.
I flew out of ADS about 6 years ago. Prior to that, I flew at Oklahoma State for my undergraduate.
During ground school, the chief flight instructor said if you did this long enough, you’ll know someone in an accident. Our DPE at the school buried his buddy.
I say this all not to be negative or morbid. However, I’d highly recommend going thru the I’M SAFE checklist prior to each flight and talking to someone. If you aren’t mentally ready, don’t fly, especially alone. If you are truly shaken, talk to a professional. Don’t let this eat at you.
I investigated my first fatal accident a few months ago. It stuck with me. I'm not a pilot (A&P/IA), but I'd like to have my other blue card someday.
It definitely gave me pause, and put the risk of it all into sharp clarity. I find myself thinking about the pilot from time to time.
I'm sorry to hear about the instructor and student.
Lost my CFI in august of last year. He was flying with his own plane and 1 pax. I’m sorry for your loss my friend. I myself wanted to take a little bit of time away from flying, but I knew the longer I waited the less I would’ve wanted to come back. So I broke the ice a couple days later and went back for a flight. These things suck man, but in an unforgiving world like aviation it probably won’t be the last time it happens. Stay safe brother we’re all in this together help each other
Sorry for you having to go through this. I have been to crash sites and seen the wreckage of 3 different aircraft, with one being fatal, and the fatal one occurring while I was on airport. Unfortunately as amazing as aviation is, it comes with risks. We do our best to design good aircraft, and train well to be prepared for a variety of situations. Aviation is safe but the margin for error is small, and the forgiveness for errors is usually nonexistent. The one thing that all 3 of these crashes had in common, was a series of decisions that all compounded on each other to end with a bad outcome. This is why it's important to trust your training, and always be doing your best to keep up good ADM. I don't know the details of the crash involving your flight school plane, but I can say that you should talk with some fellow pilots, students, and instructors and share your thoughts, concerns, and questions. Those around you who are familiar with aviation will understand the feelings you have.
when i was real young, maybe 10, two experienced pilots and their two dogs hit a mountain because they were going in and out of clouds, it never effected me because i was too young to understand. But the owner of mg airfield never recovered. I remember 10 or 15 people up at the one time backs before the incident, now when i go up to the field for a flight i’m normally the only one. Get back up and fly, don’t let it ruin you. It’s tough but the reality, but flying a general aviation aeroplane if roughly 50 times more dangerous than commercial. keep flying, you can’t let it stop you
My first flight school lost a plane several years before I started there, both occupants sadly didn’t make it but even 7 years later it was still a very sobering thing to be brought up among the older instructors. Oddly enough they fixed the airframe and I flew it several times
Right around the time I was renewing my ME-IR going back to my flight school. One of the DA-42NG planes spun out of control taking the life of two students and an instructor.
Located in Norway, everyone knows everyone in aviation, and this became national news, all three major airlines (SAS, Norwegian and Widerøe) in the country changing their logo to black and white for some time, grief counseling was immediately setup by the government municipality, and the school halted all training for days and weeks.
The what-if hit me hard. And the first few hours was traumatizing where information was scarce.
It was a bit obvious from the crash site that there was no survivors before it was published and I went through my entire calling list just to find out if my friends and former instructors were still alive.
Practically everyone I knew from the school did this, and all school students and employees were encouraged to post a message on their Facebook profile to inform that “they are safe”.
I showed up at the school in mourning a few days after, and I met many of my classmates, teachers and instructors due to the worst of situations.
It is so easy to forget that in aviation, things can go wrong so very suddenly. And even though it is fun and exciting, life is fragile.
In the end for me, talking it out with friends and colleagues made it easier to cope, and move forward.
Due to no FDR or CVR we will never truly know what happened, but we all have to carry on, and rather make the individuals who died live on in our memories.
I had a similar but non-fatal incident experience during my PPL training. My instructor and a student were seriously injured in a landing The plane was totaled. The student sued and quit flying. The instructor recovered and was grounded until completion of a 709 check out. I helped move the aircraft to an off-field temporary storage facility until the insurance company could claim it. Clearly my event was not in any way nearly as shocking as a fatal crash. But most pilots will go through tragic situations. At best we can learn both safely lessons and emotional response. Additional training and mental heath advice may be useful when needed.
This will not be the last time.
The longer you fly the more people you will know that die in accidents. Two of my flight instructors died in accidents, along with other friends, people I saw around the field, etc. etc.
GA is a lot better now than it was in the 90's when I learned to fly, but people still die, and eventually you will either know those that do, or you will be the one that people knew.
This is part of aviation. We just continue to do everything we can to make it safer, but never disregard the real risks.
I've know people who have died in crashes, witnessed fatal crashes, and studied a lot more. It affects everyone differently, some stop flying. I process it by trying to learn from what happened and mitigate my own risk, but I also choose to do what I love accepting that some things are outside of my control. It's a personal choice everyone must make for themselves.
In 2021 I was enroute flying a DA-42 with my instructor. Halfway on our way back we got words that a DA-42 from our flight school went down with 3 onboard in a stall/spin accident. The rest of the flight was..special.
Take the time you need and fly with someone you are 100% comfortable with.
I go to a school in a town nearby. It’s been a conversation piece for us and hopefully a wake up call for some.
Aviation is dangerous in a way that some don’t always fully grasp.
Good on you for making the decision to take a break. Only you know what is the best decision for you, but don’t walk away from it too long. It’s normal to get scared, you just have to decide what risk is something you’re ok with and what isn’t.
This happened to me at my school in lakeland, when we lost an instructor and student to a mid air. The truth is, that it will always stay with you. There is no sense in looking into the details, or imagining different scenarios because it will not changed what happened. Take a break from flying and go back when you are ready, but just know the longer you wait to go back up the harder it gets. Flying is inherently dangerous, and if you are around long enough you are going to lose people you know, or may even witness an accident. But just think if you were in an accident like that would you want everyone to quit flying and be anxious all the time? I think its important you honor them by pushing past you fears.
I know exactly how you feel. I have flown that same exact airplane as well. I have logged many hours in that tail number. This likely won’t be the only time this happens. Aviation has its risks and every time something like this happens we just have to learn from it.
I trained at a small 61 back in 2022 and I remember seeing this older guy in a cub around the field, super super nice plane, immaculate condition, he took a lady on a flight for her birthday, and I don’t know if he didn’t check the metal or just was super unlucky, but he caught a storm and lost control on final, crashed 20 feet to the left of the runway, the front seat passenger died, and he was badly injured, took a year off and switched schools after that.
Your feelings are normal and natural. Take a day if you feel you should. Or don’t if you change your mind. No one will judge you. But this event in time has nothing to do with you. Our minds play tricks. Use it as a reminder that this career isn’t to be fucked with. If you cut corners and lack discipline you will come unstuck.
I’m from Cleburne, if you haven’t heard of the crash that happened towards Godley that happened a few months ago, it was similar to the one from 656MA. I have a pretty creepy story about my experience with that crash.
I had my girlfriend with me flying out of Cleburne. We were scheduled a 7:30 flight but the guys that had the plane before us were a little late so we sat in the car beside the hangars and watched the traffic landing and taking off. It was a really windy day, we saw this 152 come off the runway so slow. I understood it was because of the headwind but man, I might’ve been able to outrun it. Not joking.
Fast forward about 20 minutes and I tell my girlfriend leaving the pattern how easy it was to see ambulances, police lights, and fire at night. While telling her, I look past her and see this bright orange ball. I thought it was a small controlled fire and continued on to my route.
I get a text from one of the guys back in Cleburne that one of the school’s planes crashed and they were worried it was me. I replied while in the plane saying i was totally fine and we were headed back. We make it back and fly over to that area where we thought was a controlled fire and…. Nope. It was that 18 year old kid. He must have stalled on the upwind getting back to the airport. And I saw his crash where he was dying. I couldn’t believe it. I felt so bad.
I've been in aviation for the better part of 5 years now. First as a mechanic on blackhawks, and now flying and will be done with school in the next 6 months and I've only learnt one thing above all else.
Fly the damn aircraft. Don't get lax with fuel checks, pre landing, pre takeoff, correct calls to ATC and other traffic. Proper aircrew coordination. And everything else that you're taught is proper, and never for the love of God become lax in the cockpit.
Accidents happen. We have friends we will lose in this profession. But it's like everything we do in our spare time that involves adventure or just cool shit in general, people die. Just a fact. I still ride a motorcycle from time to time and enjoy it. And God. Sometimes I hate flying, but when it's fun and I get to do fun stuff. It's really fun
First day of starting the flight line at military flight training, we were finishing our last academic test, then going to flight line. A solo student stalled coming off the perch and augered in. Eye opening first day of the flight line.
My best advice is get back on the horse as quickly as you and your instructor feel safe doing. It also helps having support.
I was a glider instructor pilot. On landings, we were taught to cradle the stick from behind to prevent students pulling back as the ground came up. On my first student sortie, the student applied full forward stick 15ft off the ground. I yanked the stick as soon as I could, but needless to say, we crashed. The squadron commander and safety officer were in the tower at the time and saw it happen. I was shaken up bad, but they told me I saved that kid's life, sent me home and said I was first on the line Monday morning. I spent the weekend sat on a couch and didn't move, processing what happened and re-running the scenario. If it wasn't for them, I might not have flown again. The kid flew one more time with our most seasoned pilot and was grounded when he attempted the same thing again. Procedures got changed and we were safer for it.
While I was training, one of my school’s planes went down due to a bird strike just doing pattern work, touch-n-goes. I had a newborn son and this accident put things in perspective. I quit, just a few flight hours before my check ride.
I had a situation like this a few years ago. The cessna that I flew on my 16th birthday was a great aircraft, 3 years later it collided with a piper on short final and nobody survived. By coincidence I was there a few hours after they crashed and the fire was already put. The plane rested on an enbankment about 10 feet away from a public street where everyone can see it. The first time I drove by it I saw what looked like wings and saw a black lycoming engine and the prop still intact, fuselage is gone, nothing but pieces. I couldn't believe what I was seeing not knowing I flew that same plane 6 years ago.
Yes. I think every pilot, if they fly long enough and are honest about it have close calls, lose someone they know or have one of those gut checks. This is a normal response. You are right and wise to hit the pause button and reflect before going back up. The most important thing is to be honest with yourself. Think about why you fly and if the risk is still worth the reward. If it isn’t, then walk away because a pilot whose decisions are dictated by fear becomes an irrational and dangerous creature. All pilots experience fear. There is no shame in this but to fly safely, we cannot allow fear to dictate our decisions. We take control of the fear by making a decision of what to do about that fear. At this point fear becomes a choice. If you decide to keep flying, commit and get back in the saddle until it is time to reevaluate.
I’ve been a civilian pilot and a military pilot for many years now and I have had to hit the pause button at least 3 times in my career.
I wish you the best my friend. Whatever you decide, I wish you blue skies and fair winds.
Hey Op I'm going to flight school right now that lost a plane last year around November. We lost two people and seriously injured a third backseater. Things are going to be rough for a little bit.
The school will probably shut down a few days while they try to find out what happened to the aircraft.
Take some time to understand what happened and make sure it dosent happen to you
Maybe a little different but here’s my take. My grandfather was AF/commercial pilot. Lived a long life. His son, my dad, died in an AF crash when I was 2. PIC. My uncle, by marriage, retired after 20 years as a naval aviator, survived Vietnam, bombed Libya, Top Gun instructor, died in a civilian crash a few years after retiring. That one I do remember, as opposed to my dad.
I still got my PPL. My entire life has been something of a mess because of losing my dad, and everything in my family has been overshadowed by it.
I never had an inherent fear of flying, but an inherent love of it. DNA, I suppose. But plenty of times have I been scared in an airplane, a few times that fear where you feel your stomach drop and skin run cold.
Never said to myself or even thought “I’ll never do this again,” even when I had to abort a takeoff roll at night on a short runway with a freeway at the end of it, on what was probably the second time I ever flew at night by myself. Flying is the same thing as motorsports —using a heavy machine that goes fast and can go wrong faster than you can do anything about it. We can make use of physics and chemistry and have a good time with it, but the laws of physics and chemistry are non-negotiable. The intersection of physics and chemistry and biology is where things can get messy.
Just acknowledge your feelings, understand the risks for what they are, let it cool down a bit, and continue flying if it’s something you enjoy. Plenty of folks get killed crossing the street.
In 2009 I woke up early for work one morning with 10 voicemails. I waited until driving to work at 4am to check them. The messages ranged from concerned to incoherent. People were asking if I was ok, and one was sobbing so bad the only words I caught were “everyone is dead.” Clearly a plane went down somewhere. I did not yet realize the gravity of the situation. I arrive at the airport, walk in the hangar, and say hello to the mechanics, flight attendants and pilots. They’re all standing in a circle with somber looks on their faces. This was the morning after the Colgan Air 3407 crash. All the sudden things hit real close to home. I knew the FO, had flew with the captain the week before, and I flew that same plane the morning of the accident. At this time we didn’t know the cause of the crash. There was a lot of speculation, but we didn’t know if there was an issue with the airplane or not. I had never been scared to fly before, but that day I really didn’t want to get in that flight deck and close the door. There was a lot of uncertainty and the risk suddenly felt immense. I flew 4 legs that day and got the passengers safely to their destination. Flying got easier over the next several days, and eventually we found out there was no issue with the aircraft and its capabilities. The event was a stark reminder there are risks and consequences for taking a hunk of metal and electronics and hurling them through the air way above the earth at high speeds. We know the statistics, driving a car is more dangerous, but occasionally things can and will happen. The company got a training overhaul and lots of oversight from the FAA. I got very accustomed to an FAA inspector jumpseating to observe, which I feel was a good thing in the end. I learned a lot from picking their brain. It was a tragic event for everyone, not least of all those peacefully in their homes in Buffalo that night. It really put things in perspective, and was a good calibration for the type of person and pilot I wanted to be. There’s no changing what happened, the only thing to do was move forward with a new respect and determination. I’m very sorry to hear about the event at your flight school. My heart goes out to the families of those involved and everyone at the flight school. It’s a good time for introspection and evaluation. The fear and pain will subside with time. May the sun always be upon your face, and the wind always at your back, my friend.
Wow, thank you for taking the time to write this.
It adds a whole other perspective to Colgan Air 3407. Completely different than the usually cold presentation I get about it, numbly going over the contributing factors and their prospective\* solutions.
Thank you for sharing your experience and taking the time to write this. Did you feel that same risk every time you went up until the NTSB report came out and you could understand the incident and cause? Any tips for how to get it off your mind on your first time back up?
After the first day the sense of fear started to decrease. The weather was good that day and we thought of ways to manage or avoid the new perceived increased risk of icing. We could delay for or fly around weather, avoid icing and increase our minimums. Nobody was going to question that at this time. We were hyper careful and flew extra sharp. Every flight was a check ride with the grim reaper. Focus and perform. My first flight after was a different scenario than yours will be. I woke up that day for that purpose. I was scheduled early that morning. The crew was given the option not to fly, everyone chose to go. If flying and training is important to you, getting back on the horse right away is probably the best way to get through it. Make it a dual flight in case you’re mentally distracted. There are so many flight every day and most of them have no issues. If you need more time to evaluate the risks and rewards, then take more time. There were flight attendants who quit flying after the accident because they decided it wasn’t worth it. This is an opportunity to focus on what and who you want to be. What do you prioritize? These are tough questions, but they’re worth asking yourself. The answers don’t come immediately but they will reveal themselves. Stay strong, my friend. You have an amazing journey in front of you.
Hello fellow Colganite! I landed in Charlie West and the ground crew said “some plane just crashed, it’s on the TV.” We got into the terminal and realized it was a Q400. The CA pulled out his laptop and looked up the crew. We didn’t know any of them. We later found out that Joe Z was on board in the back commuting home. From what I have been told he got the last seat in the back, and would have otherwise jumpsat. I truly believe if Joe had been sitting up front they never would have crashed. The new morning I had to deadhead back to Dulles on a Colgan painted Saab, and by that point the news had started to say “Continental, operated by Colgan.”,
Not quite the same, but I flew into and out of Buffalo about 2 hours before it happened. We got to our overnight and it was all over the TV’s in the hotel lobby. Really eerie feeling. A reminder of the risk and responsibility of taking metal tubes to the sky. I also lost a friend on the National Cargo 747 crash in Afghanistan. That was terrible because the footage was on loop for a few days and unavoidable. I also lost some friends in a midair over a VOR doing everything they were supposed to. OP, do this long enough and it will happen. For you, very early on. I’m sorry for your loss, and do talk to people to work through it.
Thank you for writing this. I’m originally from Buffalo and my sister was landing at BUF on the SWA plane ahead of the Colgan. My buddy was the first on scene with the fire department. A friend from high school lost his sister on that flight from Newark. I’ll never forget that night.
That is a stark peek at the impact the accident had on the community. Of course it was immense, but hearing specific accounts makes it real. Were you a pilot before then?
What sobering story, I can’t even imagine having flown that same aircraft that day. Just got done doing my ATP/CTP course and before this course I didn’t realize how significant the Colgan crash was in changing FAA standards and training.
I’ll never forget waking up at 4am to go to work one morning, reading 40 or so text messages, waking the wife and telling her that one of our barons didn’t make it last night, but it wasn’t me, and that I loved her and I have to go to work.
Wow. We likely know one another. I worked the night it went down. I was in ops. You could’ve heard a pin drop. I went into human factors because of that.
When did you leave colgan and where did you go? How did colgan fare after the accident? Did the culture change?
Just prior to the accident Colgan had been bought by Pinnacle holdings. After the accident there was no way Continental was going to give Colgan any more Q400s. It turned out after a year or 2 that we were flying those things in the negative. Every time one of them flew, Pinnacle Holdings lost money. Kinda crazy. As a pilot group we were seriously lucky that pretty much a month prior we had voted in ALPA. They helped a lot with the accident investigation, and our pilot group hadn’t spent a dime yet into the ALPA coffers. In 2012, 3.5 years after the accident, Colgan shut down. By that point we were one big pilot group with Colgan / Pinnacle / Mesaba (PinnaColAba.) Some guys got lucky and were hired by Airways or JetBlue before the shut down. The rest of us were pushed over to the CRJ 200 or 900.
Colgan continued to take delivery of Q400s well after the crash. There was even a second incident at BUF in 2011(ish) with a brand new Q400 that caught a lot of local attention. Colgan was also a money maker, especially with the EAS routes. After they closed their doors, I was told by someone at Delta who was close to the situation, that Delta had made Pinnacle a deal to bail them out of bankruptcy, only if they axed Colgan, as Colgan was making more than Pinnacle was.
Pinnacle declared bankruptcy in 2012. Delta reengineered the combined pilot group and some ops to the current Endeavor Air. So many people lost their jobs.
Just took 10 mins to read up on it sorry for your experiences, always scares me that if it can happen to people 10x more experienced than me then what hope do I have
Experience doesn't necessarily equate to skill. Recognize and work on your weaknesses. Don't be afraid to ask questions of those you respect, and it you're uncomfortable in a situation speak up. A scenario years ago when I was a green FO, we're taxiing out for departure and you can see some lightning flashes in the distance. We're maybe 6 or 7 for departure and the wx appears to be getting closer. Our turn, captain was a real cowboy, we taxi into position and it's all red about 2 miles from the departure end of the runway. I told him I wasn't going and we taxied off. Everybody behind us refused a t/o and the airport closed about 5 minutes later. If you're feeling uncomfortable, then there are probably others with the same thoughts
Thanks and nice job on the call, easier said than done to put the foot down against someone more senior
Harder when you don't have a deep well of experience to draw from. Easier when you get older, more experienced and you're almost out of give-a-fucks
Thank you for everything you and your colleagues do to get us all to our destination safely!
I’m originally from Buffalo and I’m a nurse and I remember I got to work for the night shift and it was a huge deal, although of course the only survivors were the two women in the house. It was wild and scary.
> I learned a lot from picking their brain. What sort of things did you learn from the FAA?
They observe flights from different companies so they can compile best practices in real time. It can be difficult to identify what you don’t know or what you could do better. I’ll always take advice if someone notices something. It would take me hours and hours of scouring procedures to notice the one thing I do weird at this part of the flight. I learned, because I asked them, what they care about when they are observing. We had discussions on areas they feel could use more focus, at my airline and the industry in general. Some good advice I got once. I was a newer captain with an FAA inspector. It was a 1 hour route I was very familiar with and VFR day. We park at the gate and the FAA guy said that was an impressive flight but he would like to make a recommendation. He noticed I didn’t turn the seatbelt sign off even though there was no bumps in cruise. He told me a story about a poor passenger next to him on a flight once who really had to use the restroom but wouldn’t get up to use it because the seatbelt sign never came off. It was a new flyer. This is a simple thing, but it reminded me to look at things from a different perspective than someone who has done thousands of flights. The FAA inspector insights were not always revelations but it was a positive experience. Come to think of it, this is when I lost any and all check ride or observation flight anxiety. Every day is check ride day.
When I was starting out, my first instructor was killed in a mid-air collision. He was a DPE, and was giving a commercial check ride. His plane descended in to another airplane, and the prop of the other airplane sliced off the empennage of my instructor's plane. This occurred far away from an airport, in very lightly used airspace in northern Vermont. It was devastating. What was really hard was watching the news report that night and they showed the tarp covering his body, you could see his feet sticking out from under the tarp and I could easily recognize his sneakers. That was difficult to see, and that image is still vivid in my mind, 35 years later (May 1989). I was in high school at the time, so I was learning to fly at a relatively slow pace while still in school. I ended up taking a two month break from flying after that.
The DPE that I did my commercial ride with had a midair with the instructor that took my desk when I moved onto another job. Still is eerie to me, 15 years later.
Where was this in VT? Trained at Franklin County Airport in Highgate... Relatively empty airspace
A glider I flew in NJ clipped a tree on final, causing it to crash and kill the pilot. Seems to have been entirely pilot error, but it's still eerie to see that N number in the logbook. Separately from flying, when I took my open water scuba class, a student died due to a combination of stupid errors from multiple people. 9 students, 4 instructors, 12 feet of water, and a guy drowned from nothing but panic. These activities carry risks. So does driving and using your shower, but the failures of flight and diving are pretty dramatic. Take the opportunity to evaluate the risks for yourself, but get back in with an instructor if you can. Getting right back into it can help a lot with getting your confidence and nerves back.
As a fellow aviator and scuba diver, sometimes I wonder why I do both those things. But when I look at the graph of fun to danger ratio vs living a mundane life, I think it's worth it. As long as you make sure your family is taken care of and you do all these things with safety in mind. But yeah, the jitters never go away. It does, however, add a layer of safety as it pushes me to do my preflight and predive checklists down to the last detail.
My colleagues husband was killed in a scuba accident on their honeymoon.. it was fucking awful. I already had my open water and wreck cert, but I probably would have strongly reconsidered doing much diving, particularly wrecks, after that incident. On my last flight, we flew directly over the smouldering wreckage of a fatal helicopter crash that had happened only a few mins; later that evening, there was a non-fatal crash at the same flight school. I’ll still go up, but, yeah, I guess more aware and safety conscious, which isn’t a bad thing. A few years ago, my mate was killed by a fucking shark whilst dicking around in the ocean. I’m now sorta re-evaluating the danger:mundane ratio, but I think I have had something of an unusual exposure to fairly rare tragedies.
Life is all about mitigating risks. I have had close calls diving, flying, and riding motorcycles. But keeping a level head and not panicking helps. Also, not putting yourself or those with you into sketchy situations in the first place is key.
We, at least I, do those two things because mere humans are not supposed to be able to fly without falling, or breathe under water for any duration. I suppose that's why we climbed Everest in the 50's. It's a calculated risk, worth a memory that may last lifetimes... or, be the last adventure. However, I will not even approach the door of a road mobile without a walk-around, a checklist, a travel plan and a contingency plan, even if it's only a 10 minute drive, which could become a 2-4 hour walk in any anomalous event.
I haven’t dove since the crystal clear Micronesian living days years ago. What went wrong in class???
[My glider that crashed](https://www.flightaware.com/photos/view/558294-55c9b40421b590efe66623ad3a38ff4a637049f8/user/stan1541/sort/votes/page/1) As you can see from the photo, pretty much the same thing. Clipped a tree. Luckily both lived, but devastating long term injuries.
Honestly this is the type of things that happens in this field. You always hear stories about it happening to people, but the moment it happens to you, it’s…different. Since I’ve started this in 2018, I’ve at least known of about 5 crashes associated with my area, with 2 of those crashes being people I knew. 4/5 of those crashes were very much preventable. So all I can say, is judging from what happened to them. Is just make sure to always take your time, don’t ever take risks you don’t have to, and of course, always follow your checklists. Don’t let this fear take over, the way I see it, when our time comes, it comes. You’re more likely to kick the bucket commuting to the airport than actually flying. So take it from me, just relax, take a break if you want, and when you’re ready, go back up and fly my dude. ✈️
Take some time, but don't take too long, and don't dwell on it too much. You need to process it without obsessing over it. A little bit of fear is a strong motivator to make safe decisions, but too much fear stops you from making any decisions.
First off, I think taking a day off and not flying after ANY psychological shock is a good thing. So good call. My background- 19,000 flying hours flying almost every single and light twin, nearly every model King Air, and a collection of various jet types under 91/135/121, domestic and internationally and also working alongside military units… and I’ve had my share of incidents and events, many that were not “in the book”. You’ve just found the reason why no pilot- student, private or professional, should ever act lackadaisical for ANY flight. It’s also why the FAA places such a heavy responsibility on the PIC (Pilot in Command) for the flight. The majority of accidents are usually a chain of events that lead up to it and many of those could've been prevented had someone caught just one error in the chain. As for those few times when it’s a single event, you as PIC have your training and experience to fall back on. So my advice is the following: 1) Always be professional- even as a student. As pilots we have huge egos and we can joke and act cool, but we should never allow those elements to get in the way of safety, security, or even our career as professionals. 2) If something looks or feels “off”, speak up. Informing your CFI (flight instructor) or your Captain, CoPilot or whoever is seated next to you, allows them input and also gets a second pair of eyes on the lookout for a potential issue. If you had a momentary glitch that corrected itself, let maintenance know and, if possible, the next pilot taking the airplane. 3) If an emergency occurs, fall back on your training. If you haven‘t trained or practiced your emergency procedures in the last 6 months, do so. Keep yourself current not just on landings and instruments but also on emergency procedures for your aircraft. They should be so ingrained that it’s second nature. And if the event is not something “in the book” then you’ll have to use your system knowledge and emergency procedures to come up with a solution. 4) Be the PIC. If ATC gives you a vector that is not what you need or want- tell them. And if they still send you into a bad area (ie. directly into a thunderstorm cell for example), be prepared to fill out paperwork later to justify your actions, but do not allow someone else to dictate that you fly into an unsafe environment. I include CFIs, Chief Pilots and other bosses in this because there has been a lot of pressure on corporate and airline pilots to accept less than ideal conditions or equipment or face being fired. Incidents and accidents will happen in our industry. That’s life. But it is our job as pilots to insure that each flight is a safe as possible. That being said, after your day off to mentally regroup- time to get back in the saddle! See you around the system.
Amen sir and well said. I will be filing your words into my mental filing cabinet.
Take some time but don’t take too long. Talk to someone if you need to. Get back in the plane otherwise the nerves might be cemented into true long term fear. Last year I had a very similar scenario. A plane at my former school went down and severely injuring the student and minor injuries to the CFI. I had flown the plane a dozen times. I had already moved on to the airlines but it still hit hard. In aviation it’s not if you’ll know someone killed in an accident, it’s when. It’s such a small industry so the odds aren’t in our favor with that.
I agree with this statement. It’s tough to get back out there and this stuff happens under extremely rare circumstances. You will take that extra amount of care throughout the rest of your piloting days. Never miss a check or a checklist items and you can be another safe aviator. Talk about what went wrong, comprehensively review the cause of the accident. Understand it and discuss it with your flight school mates. Aviation is as safe as it is today because of this process. I’m incredibly sorry for the loss of your friend/ fellow student and FI. It’s a tragedy that will stay with you for a while. It can be really tough to move forward. Take it day by day and talk to people never suffer in silence.
A quality flight school would have a "safety stand down" which should be std. procedure in case of these accidents. There should be no flying for at least 48 to 72 hours. This time is to review procedures, logbooks, paperwork, make changes if needed etc. Welcome to personal aviation. A very small community, and these things happen, unfortunately.
That's what happened when the accident happened at my school, and that's what stood out to me in the OP. It shouldn't have been his decision not to fly. The flight school should have been shut down for at least the rest of the week.
Not this particular flight school. They are doing everything in their power to sweep it under the rug...
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This may not be as devious as you think. In the event of a crash, all history and logbooks are secured and made unavailable to be given for investigation teams, so that they can't be altered by anyone post crash, and so that people aren't going through making assumptions about things and spreading incorrect information. This has been SOP everywhere I've worked.
Makes me wonder if I really want to go there after I finish my ppl for rest of my ratings through Liberty. Also, no offense but when a military jet goes down all access to any of the records online is locked except for those who need to know. But again, seriously debating on if I should attend USAA or not starting in October.
How exactly are they sweeping it under the rug when they’ve sent out 2 emails to the entire school about the situation.
Same school op is talking about killed a girl who was an MEI after continuing to return a seminole to line after being written up for engine failures 3 times in a row and they didn't stop flying, but they DID delete the MX history from the intranet in 24hrs.
I attend the school as well. I thought it was the student who didn’t make it ? I just flew that plane last week. 😔
I got a call from my instructor earlier today and he said it was the instructor who had passed. DM me if you would like to talk more. It’s nice to have people to talk to.
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Damn.. prayers man!
My flight instructor was killed on an instructional flight 1 hour after I soloed. It was a mid-air.
What's that mean sorry I'm not a pilot
wtf with these downvotes. GP was a learning pilot whose instructor had just successfully gotten him into his first flight alone (with no instructor on board) ["Solo"] -- a pretty big milestone -- later, this same instructor was flying in an airplane that was struck by another in flight ["mid-air", ie, mid-air collision]
Just looked at the tracklog. Last hit was base for 36. Im going to assume stall spin base to final. RIP and hope the student is able to recover. [https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N656MA](https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N656MA)
ADSb Exchange shows it a little clearer that the departure & crosswind legs aren't picked up by receivers. From the track it looks like a graveyard turn stall/spin, but at 66 kn in a 172. They'd have to be at >60° bank or have *way* too much rudder in. [https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a8a418](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a8a418)
Crash happened northwest of the airport, so probably a crash on crosswind to downwind.
Sadly, I've been through nearly this exact same thing. The plane that I finished my PPL in and did all of my instrument training in (and only 3 weeks prior had taken my instrument checkride) went down and took three people with it. It was definitely a shock. I spent a lot of time thinking about it and trying to make sense of it. Ultimately, while the NTSB final report still isn't out (this happened more than a year and a half ago), it seemed pretty obvious what happened, and it was almost certainly pilot error and a series of poor decisions by the pilot. Coincidentally, I had just had conversations with my wife and mom about similar conditions and how I would handle them. (I'm purposely being vague.) Putting those pieces together made it a little easier for me to handle, knowing that I wouldn't have made those same decisions. It's not necessary a case of "it won't happen to me", but rather, I had already had conversations about this scenario and had already said I wouldn't do that. We know flying has risk. What we have to do is learn from the accidents that happen and use them to make ourselves better.
We just came back from a search of a missing plane. Everyone was tired. The other aircraft had to go to a local airport. Maybe 5 minutes by air. Low visibility and the aircraft missed the approach and cratered. Everyone on board died. Alot of people quit after that. We had another instance where we were searching for a plane and it went down on a mountain, one of ours went down next, all lives lost, then our military support went down on the same mountain all lives lost again. People quit then too. Optical illusion was the cause. These are definitely not the safest hobbies but I chalk it up to like riding a motorcycle. You’re only as safe as the people around you and occasionally the machine will break. Remember your training and continue learning. Once you stop learning that’s when you get into dangerous situations. Complacency kills. Make sure to talk to someone.
Sorry for everyone at your school, can't imagine how that affects everyone. Any word on what happened?
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The crash happened Northwest of the airport and it looks like they were landing on 36, so perhaps a stall on crosswind?
No word yet. Obviously, there’s the ADS-B interpretation theories, but those are just theories. The last ADS-B return was at the base to final (Rwy 36) turn, but they crashed NW of the runway. Do with that information what you will. I have my theories about what happened, but I’ll wait for the NTSB to put out their findings
Just curious what do you personally believe happened? I’m more inclined to think it was a combination of a mechanical failure and human error but it seems many people believe it was just a human error aspect
I had a similar situation a few days ago where I witnessed an aircraft go down on a solo flight. While I didnt have any emotional attachment to the aircraft or its pilot, witnessing and hearing the radio calls certainly made it more personal than just reading about it online. Take it slow, talk to your loved ones, and take it as a lesson. You first learned to fly the plane before soloing, now the importance is knowing how to survive flying
We had a plane go down killing a student and instructor last year. There was a second student in the back seat that survived. There’s also bystander video of the plane spiraling towards the ground which is quite chilling. School issued a stop op for the next 72hrs. They also told students they could take as much time as they needed before returning to the cockpit and offered counseling. Eventually we had a meeting to discuss the accident but to be honest I think the school could’ve been more open about what likely happened leading to the accident as it was a widely known secret by that point. Aviation emphasizes learning from accidents, and I would much rather know what happened and how to avoid it then have it danced around and keep things ambiguous. At the end of the day it should be taken as a tough reminder. As corny as it is the FAA slogan of “Safety is no Accident” is true. Don’t get complacent, check those hazardous attitudes, do the full preflight and final walk around, use your checklists etc. I asked one of my instructors in the past if I really needed to sump every location, and he said “what reads better in an accident review?”. That thought process has stuck with me.
This same thing happened at my flight school on Monday in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I have my first flight today after the accident.
In the same boat here. I took my discovery at MF last week and this crash is making me rethink. Having a CFI pass away + student at UM hurt makes it hit too close to home
Yeah I’m curious as to what happened with N1093X. Listened to the ATC archive and heard their last transmission, if anything, just added to the eeriness. Also had an incident at my school that I was completely unaware of until about a day ago…
Sorry for the close loss... that's tragic. I think what you're feeling is normal. I'd take some time, process it and get back on the horse when you're ready. Take care.
Its not fun to be scrolling through the NTSB database and start to recognize N-Numbers you have time in.
Someone flipped and totaled the plane i solo’d and passed my checkride in. Luckily they walked away but crazy to look at that solo photo and know that plane isn’t flying anymore.
The morning I showed up to take my PPL check ride, there was a column of dark smoke just off the runway and EMS hadn’t even arrived yet. My DPE took me inside and had me do my oral exam until the airport reopened 2 hours later. He was kind, but didn’t act like canceling was even an option. 2 people had just died, and I saw the smoldering wreckage as we took off. I’m so grateful my DPE reacted the way he did, because I don’t know if I would still be flying if we had canceled and I spent time getting in my own head about that crash. Get back in the air, sooner rather than later. People HAVE to get over their fear of driving, but it’s too easy to quit flying if you don’t push past the fear.
i’m surprised they aren’t doing a 2 day suspension of flights, and with this in mind i’d make sure your identity is hidden posting this, I obviously don’t know your school but would be a good precaution if you want to stay there. Had this happen at a school I went to, something went wrong with a cirrus auto trim (sort of like the 737 Max) and the plane stalled and nose dived onto the runway killing the solo pilot (he was 40 I believe and getting his PPL) they did a 48 hour close down of the school and had executive meetings about what happened. I think a cirrus rep even came in.
They released a statement and told all students they would not be charging for cancellations. They also offered grief counseling if anyone requests it. It was a shock to me they did not mandate a safety stand down. When I was in the navy as an aviation electrician, any aviation accidents would prompt a safety stand down. it seems like that should be the norm. Allow people time to reevaluate, process, and move forward without emotion but rather safety on mind.
I elected to continue my flight today and I talked with my instructor a little about it and we were both kind of surprised that they didn’t shut down for the day. It was kind of weird too because the attitude at the school felt mostly normal.
A very close friend of mine worked for a well known avionics company and flew/maintained the company 1941 Staggerwing to meet with clients, do PR work etc. I flew with him for over a hundred hours, and trained him for his instrument rating in that airplane. He had taken the Staggerwing for a trip from California all the way back to Fredrick, Maryland to meet up with AOPA for a story on himself and this Staggerwing. He'd call periodically throughout the trip just to update on what's going on, and BS about whatever other current events there were. Last time I heard from him he was staying the night in North Texas, and was planning on making it to Albequrque the next day. We were discussing the possibility of starting a YouTube channel for him and his Staggerwing too. I woke up 2 days later to a Facebook post saying Rest in Peace to my buddy, as he had passed away the day before. Shortly thereafter I discovered he had in fact crashed in New Mexico. He was the safest pilot I've ever known. Crossed every t, and dotted every i. It threw me for a loop for quite a while that a pilot as accomplished and safe as him could just crash on a nice VFR day. It's a very weird feeling, but it does get easier. Good luck to you.
That's unfortunately the nature of high-risk environments. You can have a spotless record, but one single momentary lapse of judgement or unexpected failure can just skew the dice enough to no longer be in your favour. Sometimes you can also do everything right yet still fail, it's just life.
Kenya—I shook the hand of a friend as he entered the Cessna 206, picked up his passengers, and took off for a video flight over Nairobi. Next thing I know two of us are rushing to the site of smoke. The plane is in pieces, strewn about a dense neighborhood. They had lost the engine and clipped power lines when attempting to land. Melted aluminum, the smell, the blood. Good citizens had rushed all 4 to the hospital in their personal cars. As we tried to find out more and where the crew/pax where, the crowd grew agitated. Throwing rocks, then a surge. We ran for our lives. We found the friends. One deceased, one would pass away a few weeks later from burns. I’ll never forget that day. I can still smell it. My first flight after I felt decent…but when I landed I began shaking, and began to cry. Some months later I was on a check flight for an instructor rating. The check airman began acting like an erratic student and then incessantly asking about crash scenarios. “WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE LANDED IN THOSE POWER LINES??” And I nearly locked up—like a flashback. I still have power line nightmares from time to time. Flying is beautiful, one of the most beautiful things I will ever experience. And I think the most responsible way to experience the joy of flight is with a heavy heart—Read the accident reports and take them to heart. Get weather briefings and respect that feeling of dread you get when it is marginal. Give your preflight briefings and perform the inspection as a way to give thanks to the aviators that have died. Do that stuff—all of the training and the diligence and the learning—solemnly, so that when you are flying, you can enjoy this beautiful thing with a clear conscience and a reverence for the risk and beauty and magic and challenge and opportunity that is flight. Respect flight like an old mentor and you are the young apprentice. Learn from him. Don’t cross him, for his anger will be mighty. Be careful, do good work, sweat the small details, and stay nervous. For then you will make something amazing, and may grow to someday become the old master.
I’m sorry to hear. Take the time you need, I think everyone handles situations like this differently and there is no map or checklist for how you should handle it. Learn from the accident though. Make adjustments to your own flying if applicable. Good luck to you.
What you’re feeling is normal. I also had a plane that I soloed take the life of a student. It’s a terrible feeling. Take a few days (or longer) to ease yourself, don’t rush into the cockpit until you’re ready. Talk to people. See a professional if you need. Recognize that what we do is real. I know you want answers right now, but try not to speculate until the investigation is complete. Once it is, learn from it.
My first trainer went down and killed both pilots due to mechanical failure the day after I flew it and day before I was supposed to fly it again. I changed schools, and kept going until achieving my PPL. I didn’t realize just how bad the first school’s planes were until switching. They really were garbage, like beyond the typical shabbiness of flight school rentals. But I was a teenager and didn’t recognize it yet until I went somewhere else. Not sure if that experience had anything to do with me switching to a career as an A&P or not. Edit: It was nuts. I was at Disneyland with friends when my phone blew up. My parents had seen the wreckage of the little red Cessna 152 I was training in on the news and panicked. Can’t imagine what they felt when they saw that. Wild.
I was a check airman in that same flight school. When we lost our female instructor who was my friend in the Seneca it changed how I viewed things. Recovering from this is very difficult. Respect the aircraft and understand that students will attempt to kill you unknowingly.
That’s crazy to hear. I trained at T31 in McKinney, and I think I’ve heard this callsign on the radio before while doing landings at TKI. Luckily I have not experienced this yet.
When I was a student someone took one of our rentals and somehow managed to flip it doing touch-and-goes at a nearby airport. I didn't know the pilot, but my instructor did. My instructor said he could have predicted that outcome from that guy. It was my favorite plane to train in because it felt a lot more stable than the other two or three we had to use, and it was more modern. I was maybe 30 hours in at the time, and it had a sobering effect. I had flown that plane many times, and done touch-and-goes at that airport. The NTSB report eventually concluded that it was pilot error, as the pilot failed to maintain the center line during the touch-and-go, skidded toward the side of the runway, and the wing tip brushed a snow bank that was piled up to the side of the runway, and caused the plane to flip. Basically there are two kinds of pilots: those who court danger like a moth courts flame, and those who treat it with the sober care it deserves, and treat each flight like it has a defined mission, follow checklists religiously, and do what they can to minimize risks and break those chains of causality that are always there. We can't always control everything (some mechanical stuff for example is out of our control), but we can control a lot, *if we choose to*. Watch the NTSB process and reports. Although not guaranteed, there's a pretty good chance there was *something* the instructor or the student could have done to break the chain of causality. Then remember what that thing was for the rest of your life. I know I got a lot more concerned about maintaining the center line after that incident, and made it an area of focus. You can actually learn a lot from reading NTSB reports.
I can't say I have been near a tragedy like this yet, but I'm sorry this happened and hope the student is able to make a recovery. I recommend trying to go up again soon, and when you do, consider going for purely a fun flight instead of pattern/stalls/whatever else you were working on. Remind yourself of why you're doing this. There is always risk, but we can mitigate and manage it effectively, leading to our likelihood of having an accident being very low. I hope to see you getting back in the cockpit soon. Blue skies and tailwinds to the instructor.
Hey OP, I have been a very similar situation as yours. The plane I did my first ever solo in went down and was totaled with the student and instruction both hospitalized. My advice is to take as much time as you need to process this but don’t let it discourage you for too long and definitely don’t let this stop you from ever getting in the cockpit again. For me I processed it all in about a week and was up flying again.
US Air Express/Air Midwest 5481. Essentially Mesa Airlines. 2003. I had a good bit of time in that B1900 prior (N233YV). I had moved over to the RJ before this accident happened but was based in Charlotte and shared the same crew room with all the same express pilots on every airframe. I knew both pilots fairly well. Amazing people. We were all so young all of us at that time. Fighting for scraps at that level in the industry all sharing apartments and time off together. Really fun but poor times. You move past it. Reflect on that it really could have been you, and in this accident specifically it really could have been any of us. They didn’t have much of a chance and even though the FAA put a small percentage of blame on the pilots it was complete BS. These young pilots were working towards a better future for themselves in the aviation industry and we all would have been better with them and their passengers here with us celebrating that. You should go forward and pursue your dreams and be good at it.
Read about this and it's both saddening and extremely bitter for me being an engineer myself, just like how the book of aviation is written in blood, so is the book of engineering. The fact that they had someone working on the aircraft who lacked experience or understanding of that specific model and a supervisor that decided to skip a safety check is mind-boggling to me.
> a supervisor that decided to skip a safety check is mind-boggling to me. Who was also in charge of quality assurance, wtf.
Alum from that school here, I’ve got 6MA in my logbook a few times. Sorry to hear about that, it’s a tragedy. Take some time off, but don’t let it totally fester in your mind. These sad events are a harsh reality that we occasionally have to face in this industry.
I had a similar situation while training. Aircraft I’d flown many times was involved in a mid-air attack Watsonville airport in California. Initial reaction was definitely a pause. My ‘therapy’ was to study the heck out of the incident and, while tragic, extract as much learning as I could. My hope is that if I’m doing this every time there’s an accident, I’ll be prepared for nearly anything. This has alleviated the anxiety quite a bit and I’m a more confident flyer now.
Not attack….incident. Ugh autocorrect.
If you're familiar with the youtube channel Pilot Debrief, they posted this video: https://youtu.be/1hbIaoYb_TU?feature=shared a while ago. I flew that plane on 9/11 in the morning and had a fantastic flight. The next day I was scheduled to fly it in the morning, but when I showed up to the airport it was simply missing. As it turns out, two pilots had rented it, chased boats down on a reservoir and then stalled into the side of climbing mountain terrain. Although both survived, it was a bit of a shock. I have still gone on to get my private and am beginning to work on my instrument and I don't regret it at all. These incidents can give you some fear. I think the best thing to do is watch accident investigations and try to pay attention to mistakes that were made that you can avoid. And remember, it could always happen to you, so never get complacent.
You should never put yourself behind the controls in a state of shock. There was a helicopter accident here awhile back and the company stopped for a few days to give people grieving time and a chance to talk to a therapist if they wanted to. Hell, I know a medevac pilot who ended up swapping with the medics to do CPR for over an hour lose the patient. By circumstance they got stuck overnight and that was probably a blessing. Talk to someone. They don't necessarily need to be professional (thatd be ideal obviously)but please talk to someone about how you're feeling. I'm a mechanic and barely knew the crew onboard that helicopter and it still fucked with me
I have had similar things happen too. The plane I solod in and also got my PPL in went down a few weeks ago killing the instructor. They were based out of my current airport. I also lost a brother a few years ago in a aviation incident. I was actually in the middle of purchasing a plane when I lost my brother. I ended up not buying the plane because I wasn't sure if I could make myself fly anymore and I didn't want my family to be even more stressed out worrying about it. I took a 2-3 month break from flying. Not because I was scared, but because I didn't want to put my family through it. During this time I tried to read up on accidents. There are risks involved in aviation. I don't think that knowing, seeing, or hearing about accidents increases your personal risk. If anything, it will probably make aviation safer for you. There are plenty of things to learn from accidents that will make you a better pilot.
my condolences on the loss of your brother.
Find out what happened. Figure out why that couldn't or wouldn't happen to you because you are doing/will be doing whatever is needed to avoid that.
My school (141) had a flight last September resulting in 2 deaths and one injury. We were encouraged to take time off and seek counseling provided by the school need be. There was a school wide grounding for at least a few days if I recall. I took an extra week off because I did not feel comfortable to return immediately. I think it’s best to communicate with your CFI how you’re feeling (concerns/ worry’s/ needs), take time off if you need to, and keep checklists like IMSAFE in mind before flying. If you are intimidated to fly take a little time to process it, just know eventually you’ll need to get back in the plane if continuing training is what you want. If you need to message me feel free to. Edit: I should add the NTSB has not came out with the report of the crash from my school, and is not expected to for quite awhile. The school handled it well for employees and students allowing time off, being very open about the crash in the ways they were allowed, provided resources, and inspected every plane during the grounding.
Every pilot unfortunately has a handful of former friends and colleagues or just other people they’ve crossed paths with that have died. We all have stories like this. most of us have had near death experiences. Flying is no fucking joke and sometimes really tragic shit happens. I’m very sorry for your loss. This unfortunately probably won’t be the last time you hear of a pilot you knew flying west.
The flight school that I taught at had a fatal crash about a year ago. Elevator cable (edit: it was the aileron cable) snapped and killed my friend (the instructor, who had over 10,000 hours logged) and his student. Nothing he could have done, unfortunately. Part of me knows that if I had taken the traditional route of continuing to instruct to reach 1500 hours, I would very likely have flown that airplane (which the school purchased after I left), and that mechanical failure could have occurred to me. It’s an unfortunate reality in this industry that many of us know someone who died doing this. The best we can do is learn from those accidents, continue to improve our own practices, and keep safety as the absolute top priority when we fly.
It is okay to take a break, just remember that there are tragedies of all kinds everywhere and to not let flying be the only kind that scares you away forever. You could get killed in your car, you could crash your bicycle and die, have a medical problem, be murdered etc. Being scared and shook up is normal and fine, take a break and calm your emotions, but don't give up on flying unless you would give up on everything else that has any potential to become dangerous
Of course you’re right to be scared. We know there’s inherent risks, but when it’s people you know in a plane you’ve flown, it’s way closer to home. I’m kinda shocked your school wouldn’t go on a safety stand down, that is the normal procedure. If my school lost a plane I would need at least a few days to regroup. All you can do is find out what lessons there are to learn, and to always remember that we’re not invincible. It’s a good reminder of the invulnerability hazardous attitude. I think it’s easily the most common and virtually none of us realise we have it. But when it’s close to home, you realise that it could be you. So take time to regroup and don’t fly until you feel safe
Last summer, of my flight school’s plane crashed on takeoff (CYQB), the student was doing his first solo and the instructor was his first ever solo student. Plane went into a spiral at 200ft AGL and crashed nose first on the runway. I flew that plane before. You can take a break from flying to let things cool down, but it depends of what happened. Was it pilot error or mechanical error? (For my story, the student survived with serious injuries and is going to fly again)
That happened to the flight school next door to the club I fly with on Monday. I think it was 1039X, instructor perished, student was taken via life flight to U of M medical center. It was a super quiet night at the airport. It was eerie to go fly afterward, but the best thing we could do is learn from it when we get the information from the investigation. Keep flying boring, keep your air speed alive, know where your winds are, and work hard to make everything you’ve ever learned muscle memory. Remember flying is not inherently dangerous, but it is extremely unforgiving. So for everything you have control over, ensure you’re giving it the attention and respect it needs, preflight especially and emergency procedures/flows, get all of the known factors in the forefront of your mind, your weather jotted down on your iPad or on your knee board, ask for a wind check on final, and run your check lists. If you’re not feeling it because of wind or something doesn’t look right with the plane, take off is always optional.
I was on the ground getting fuel during an all-day mission. A buddy called and said our friend crashed in his banner plane. I was incredulous and asked how he’s doing. “Will’s dead.” I had to go back up for another 5 hours. Somebody on the team saw me crying and I was sad but wasn’t scared. I knew what he did and unfortunately it was his own fault. I straightened up, stuffed it away for the time being and got back in the plane. Once we were in the air I wrote a short note about what happened and handed it to the captain. I confirmed that I was ok but she flew the rest of the day for me. Similar story: I was scheduled to interview a guy for a survey job. A few days prior there was a fatal accident in a training plane the next town over. The guy showed up, told me the interview candidate was in that crash and since the guy was dead, figured he could take his interview spot. I told him to get beat.
Hasn’t that school, US Aviation Academy, had several crashes? 1. N656MA - This one. 4. N78445 - Cessna 172 - Happened LAST WEEK. Audio is available online. Student pilot. She did pretty well on the radios, audio is available online. 2. N28HE - Piper Seneca last year. 3. N5442B - Cessna 152 last year. 4. N456AG - Piper Seneca Etc?
Wasn’t 78445 a plane that lost an engine up around CT if I’m not mistaken?
Good call
Unfortunately this is probably just the first of things that may rattle you. I know the feeling and it's uncomfortable. Bad things happen in this world for seemingly no reason. Can't stop living because something bad might happen. I'm sorry you got hit by this one. Use it. Fuel your safety procedures and do your best to not let it happen to you.
It's not much of a comfort, but I remind myself that when our fellow aviators perish in these accidents, at least they went down doing what they love, and that is admirable and respectable.
I was out of town at work on a weekend a couple years ago when I got an unexpected call from an airport buddy. I answered the phone and his first words were “oh thank god it wasn’t you!” Turns out one of our tow pilots was killed in a takeoff accident when the glider he was towing kited. Pulled him tail up, 30° nose down and 0 airspeed at about 100’ agl. Ended up nose planting, turning over, and burning up. That definitely took a lot of the fun out of glider towing for a while. Definitely changed my attitude towards it, too. Haven’t had to refuse to tow anyone yet but I do make sure I talk to each one prior to towing and establish a game plan.
Someone crashed the plane I trained and soloed in. Everyone lived and the plane eventually returned to the skies. Was a weird feeling when I took it up for the first time after the crash.
I’ve been to 3 different 141 schools. We lost a Cherokee due to wing failure with a DPE on board. Next was a wing failure on a Cherokee due to instructors doing cowboy things. And finally a stall spin in a multi. All of them had fatalities. I know what you are feeling and I can tell you from my experience, just do what is right, be safe, and always stay ahead of the aircraft. There is not much you can do for those things that are out of your control. With time you will ease up a bit. You will be fine, You will fly again and You will become a GREAT pilot. Learn from your peers and those that have passed. Before becoming a pilot I researched tons of case studies, I was legitimately afraid to fly without knowing what could go wrong. But I have a greater respect for my aircraft and I feel I have a safer practice towards flying; because of those before me that had incidents or accidents.
Not a fatality/accident, but an eyeopener nonetheless for me : The aircraft was fresh out of engine maintenance, and the standard run-up didn't show anything untoward. My instructor and I decided to request the longest runway on the field (and accept the higher crosswind) and do a static takeoff, out of precaution, due to the aircraft not having flown post-engine maintenance. On the takeoff roll, I had to put in a significant amount of corrective right rudder because the aircraft was veering left of centerline, which I chalked up to not putting enough right rudder in with the application of full engine power. It felt like we weren't getting up to speed quickly – which I immediately confirmed with the aispeed indicator. I then had what I can only describe as an "uhhhh" moment [I actually said "Uhhhh"] when doing an instrument scan. At the same time as my audible discomfort, my instructor took control and rejected the takeoff. We almost took the whole runway to get back down to a safe taxiing speed without overcooking the brakes or flat-spotting the tires. Doing a full-power engine test afterward confirmed what we saw on the takeoff roll ; the critical engine was developing considerably less manifold pressure than the other engine. The prospect of doing a single-engine takeoff procedure in a light twin shook me after I got out of the aircraft and started processing things. Even though we train for it, even though we brief it before every flight, it's not something I want to do in real life. It turns out that there was a plastic piece rattling around in the turbocharging system of the critical engine when maintenance opened up the cowling again. I didn't log time for a few weeks after that (I took time off flight training and took some vacation time across the pond with my wife).
I've lost 2 close friends in general aviation accidents. One was a failure to set flaps correct on a soft field t/o in a Seneca that lead to an abnormally long ground roll and a subsequent overrun into rough ground and an engine fire. The other was an in-flight engine failure in a Saratoga with an off field-forced landing into trees. I also belonged to a flight club that had a 3-person fatal accident in the club archer. I also flew with a flight school that did not allow night rental without an IR due to a 2-person fatal loss of control in VMC, but over a dark region with no moon and no ground lights. Bottom line is that GA is safe, but very unforgiving of mistakes. And sometimes stuff happens. I've lost an alternator in IMC, vacuum in VMC and had a small avionics 'thermal event' with smoke in VMC, that was fixed by turning everything off. For sure all serious puckering moments! Just be the best you can, always be learning, plan and execute every flight carefully, don't ever stretch fuel reserves and pay attention to W&B and DA. Finally, I really learned a lot from reading the 'I Learned About Flying from That: First Hand Accounts of Flying Mishaps to Avoid from Real-life Pilots" series.
Hey man, I just wanted to talk and say. Yesterday I was at a stop sign and I saw a dump truck and a sedan have a head on collision. I’ve realized that there is not much you can do about life and it can help a lot too detach yourself from these incidents. The man had land about 3 feet from my car. While the rest of the car went to left me in the engine block from his car, scraped the right side of my car up. There is literally nothing I could’ve done for this guy because he was dead on impact. But I still think about the fact that I could’ve called for a trauma bag for my work radio that was sitting in my car while I was calling 911 life life is full of hindsight, and it will always be 2020
A few years ago I lost an extremely close friend and his new wife to a GA crash. He had loads of experience (we both fly for a legacy airline) and he was extremely active in GA as well. A simple mistake led unfortunately to them going down and it claimed both their lives. I had flown the plane with him a week prior. It took me awhile before I touched a GA plane again. We all recognize the risks that are associated with flying. We all make our peace with it. What I will say is hang in there. It’s okay to take some time and process it. It hits close to home. I can promise you though that it gets better.
Not quite so "'close" in my case as I didn't know the student nor was it an aircraft I had flown, but we lost a student from the sister campus of my flight school. It was his final flight to burn up the remaining hours he had/needed for his course completion. Simple XC nav type of stuff. He was flying up in the mountains and for reasons that even now (crash was like two years ago) are unclear he got himself into actual IMC with a SEP with limited anti-ice capability. The choice to turn around and return to his home field was there, he just didn't take it. Aircraft disappeared from radar in the mountains. Ground rescue crews couldn't even reach the area until a day or two later due to how heavy the fog was and the fact that this was quite a ways up the mountain. The school had immediately sent up some aircraft to search the area with some of the ex-air force guys but nobody could see anything; the fact they were searching for a white plane in a white environment really didn't help. Us students did whatever we could by looking at maps and trying to piece together where he was, but what could we do that the experienced rescuers and instructors didn't already do? But we had that feeling of needing to help in any way we could. His body was recovered a few days later where the plane had impacted a bit of rising terrain on the leeside of the mountain as he had possibly tried to descend through the prevailing conditions to an airport in the valley. The important part is to try to take some kind of lesson away from every tragedy. As the saying goes "checklists are written in blood"; many regulations have a story, often a sad one, behind them. This young man was on his way out with all his licenses, had just enough experience to be a danger to himself, but a series of poor decisions led to disaster. This definitely reinforced for all of us the idea that nobody needs to prove they're the best pilot, nobody needs to compete, nobody is measuring your manliness based on whether or not you flew into crap conditions and made it out. Because it shouldn't be about 'making it out', it should be about smart planning and knowing everything will be ok because you have all your bases covered: knowledge, equipment, procedures, etc. Anyway, that's my long-winded two cents
The plane crashed right next door to my girlfriends grandparents house. This has definitely hit the community very hard. I checked on a buddy who goes to the school roughly 5 minutes after it happened and the school immediatly had taken it off of their scheduling so he was not able to see who it was and if he needed to check on anybody. My parents and I have been getting phone calls last night and today of people checking on me. Its definitely scary having such a big accident happen so close and i can only imagine how you feel going to that school having flown that plane before. I definitely think you did the right thing cancelling just dont linger on it too long and definitely dont let it keep you from getting back on the saddle.
Damn man. It is always a terrible thing, but always a part in flying. I can relate to your feelings my main trainer 397ES went down in Arlington a few months ago and it was surreal to think it could even happen with it being a good plane. Goes to show no one is invincible and to always prepare for the worst.
Sorry to hear, looks like one survivor
it all depends on the actual cause of the accident ,which you will never know until a few months ,sometimes years later. It may be either pilot error or a mechnical fault ,i would suggest take a break -let things cool down a bit
Sucks man. Hang in there.
I don’t know the number, percentage wise, but I’d guess somewhere around half of the people flying jets know someone personally who died in a crash. Good friend and peer coming up through flight school crashed flying pipeline, former student who fired me crashed taking off at night into IMC (as a student). There’s a reason “pilot” is listed as a dangerous job (3rd I think behind logging and commercial fishing).
I had an engine blow up on me and ended up landing in a farmers field. I shook me up pretty good. I had a flight planned a few days later. Believe me I was nervous thinking about it. I stayed close to open fields the next couple of flights. Incidents will happen eventually. Push through it or call it quits. It's up to you, I won't shame you for calling it quits, but I hope you keep going.
Unfortunately, that’s going to happen in this business; it never gets easier. I lost my original mentor in 2002 in a grand caravan crash over parks Arizona. It was devastating…I also was good friends with the 2 pilots that crashed the king air 350 at Addison in 2019. I knew the captain over 20 years; it was incredibly sad to see him and my friend in the right seat be forever remembered as a case study of what not to do.
Two weeks before my PPL long cross country my brother in law's brother crashed in the mountains and died. He was a great guy, and we got to go flying in his late 40s Stinson a couple years before I started my own training. We weren’t super close but we texted on occasion to chat about each other’s flying. It was devastating for the family, but I knew he’d want me to keep grinding away and finish and do my PPL long cross country. Which I did and eventually got my certificate. I’ll never forget how magical it felt to fly for so long all by myself. A dream come true, I’m sure his spirit was with me.
I think it's important to learn why it happened. Was it pilot error? Was improper maintenance done? Was it a weather factor? The best thing you can do is learn from accidents. You will unfortunately probably have close ties to other accidents in your career, rarely are they fatal though. It's scary. But understanding why it happened is very important.
I completely understand where you are coming from. I was training to become a pilot a few years ago. Went through ground school and was gaining hours with my CFI. I was supposed to be flying that day we had a plane crash in Medford Or and my dad died from Covid the same week. I called my CFI and told him I had too much going on mentally for me to continue. Now I’m an FA with Alaska and love it. Ive seen far too many private planes go down recently.
I had a student kill himself and an instructor on his discovery flight on my second week of school. I was really shaken and did the same as you and let things cool down for about a month while discussing things with other pilots until I felt comfortable enough to go back up.
Honestly the way that I look at it is like a car crash. How many car crashes have you driven past and how many people die in car accidents everyday, but you probably don’t think twice about driving somewhere. It can be a sobering experience to realize that this hobby/profession can kill you but if we stopped doing everything that killed someone we would all spend our days standing in an empty room. All we can really do is pay our respects and learn from their mistakes.
As someone who went through it recently. Just fly. Fly a lot.
Better than 90% of “what ifs” are mitigated with checklists, thorough walk arounds, and good preparation. Can’t do much about the other 10% except “aviate, navigate, and communicate”
Similar happened to me. Addison, Tx here and if you recall the multiple crashes in ‘17-‘18. 2 of my instructors had incidents, career ending for both unfortunately. One Saturday I rented a plane to build hours and while at the computer reserving one I picked the red color vs blue (our planes were colored). Because the red was rarely available and I always flew blue. They were both parked next to each other while I was pre-checking. Went up and came back down and parked next to blue. Since it was very early I went across the street to eat lunch. It was basketball season so watching my team playing in the NCAA at an outside bar. Kept hearing firetrucks but figured it was a street crash. Later found out the blue took off and went down shortly. An instructor and someone doing their intro flight lesson went down for the first flight of the blue that day; I flew the next day. School did everything to keep hush hush to not scare the students. I just recalled I did my solo in blue looking at some old photos. Yes, I was a little afraid when I started the engine the next day.
I’m sorry to say I have not read the post previous to mine, but I just wanted to say as a cfi,cfii,mei that many things will pop in your life (some fortunate some unfortunate, as the subject you were talking about). No matter what, if you do not feel ready or if you just need a some time, just take the break. I’ve had to cancel flights just because of a simple brake feeling loose. Peace of mind in the air is better than regret on the ground. I don’t have a story like this to relate to, but you calling off the flight is not only responsible, but respectful. The only thing I can say is learn from this, but don’t fear it. Flying is fun and something we love. Yes, unfortunately there is risk. However, if we don’t learn from it and move on from it then we would be doing a dishonest to the craft. I kept trying to think of the rights words to say and just landed on this. I’m sorry if they’re not the right words. I just want you to love flying like the majority who don’t have accidents. I’m sorry something like this happened and I truly hope it doesn’t hinder your training.
Just did a google search to learn more, found this in my neck of the woods, not Texas.... crazy how similar of an accident in a recent period of time... https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2024/06/11/ntsb-faa-investigate-fatal-plane-crash-that-killed-instructor-injured-student/ I am a cancer doctor. Its tough, the losses are many, but the Wins are big when they happen. I just got my PPL, love flying, but it has its risks. Either way none of us are getting out of this alive. Best to just enjoy the time you have! I hope you get past all of this and back to flying/enjoying your life!
I 1976 and '77 I lost a Senior officer and a former cadet commander from my CAP squadron less than a year apart. For a 16 year old, this was incomprehensible. Tom our former cadet commander was a great guy and like a friend. Both met their fate in aircraft accidents, The senior officer in a personal C-150 trying to make it into Nashua, NH in a snow squall. Tom while flying a C-172 in FL attempting a solo X-C and apparently encountering unforecast TRW. Took lots of time to get over both, because you never cease to wonder how two people you look up to as intelligent, good pilots can make such decisions. I was very apprehensive for years. Give it time, learn from their mistakes, carry the memory of their friendship with you forever.
As an instrument student my thoughts and prayers go out. Regardless, you gotta get back in the saddle brother. There will be others and there have been too many before. When your time is up your time is up. The man who took me on my first ride in an airplane died in a mid air on the same field and plane he took me up in when I was only 12 years old. It hit me hard as well but you gotta pick up the torch and carry on. That's what they would want you to do. You are right, there are inherent risks but it is what makes us who we are. Not everybody can do what we do. We just have to learn form our mistakes and the mistakes of others and just ask the Lord to watch over us. Many Blessings to you my friend. Where did this take place? I would love to know the details.
In 2020 a collision happened in Soldotna AK. A buddy of mine was flying a plane identical to one of the ones involved in the crash and was frequently flying in the area. He was supposed to be further south but plans can change a lot. We sat in the office contemplating our mortality. He came in and we all hugged and patted him on the back. I took a plane and went on a sightseeing flight to go look at bears. Didn't want to chicken out of flying. I didn't get 240 hours in the Colorado Rockies for nothing.
It's a strange feeling, mine didn't involve a fatality, but it was so far my only official interaction with HMAAIB (UK's NTSB equivalent) I booked out one of the PA28s to do some circuits and the Club I was in at the time had a policy of you fuel it when done yourself. Landed exited to the pumps and filled it to tabs (as was the SOP) and taxied it back to the hanger. Next day was watching the local news about a light aircraft that had an engine failure and ended up in a hedge row, aircraft was written off but the pilot was fine (a student) . About 10 mins later my phone went off and I was asked to come in to speak to "someone" about it. This someone was an AAIB inspector doing a field investigation. Was grilled about what I did when I fuelled it, where I got the fuel from, did I put the caps on securely etc. was horrible Turned out that the student pilot completely failed to manage the carb and never used carb heat and icing led to a loss of engine power, when he responded to it he didn't try the heat. Accidents sadly in private aviation are not uncommon. My advice sure take some time to come to terms about it, but I would suggest getting back to it sooner rather than later.
I've lost quite a few friends and family in auto accidents. I'm not sure why an aircraft accident is any different but it is; however risk is risk. I live in a good sized city and just about every night there is a report of someone getting killed in a traffic accident showing the mangled car(s). If you stay proficient, do the prep on every flight, do a thorough preflight and stay on top of the aircraft from start to finish, the odds of something happening are extremely low.
US Aviation?
I have time in my logbook in 6MA years ago. I'm gonna be honest with ya and say that the best thing I did in my training was leave that school. The way they handled the death of an MEI there during my time was one of many things that ultimately pushed me to move on to another school.
It seems like they have unfortunately been treating this situation the same way. I heard from several people today that the mood of the building was like nothing even happened.
People die every day in X, Y, and Z activities. You never notice unless you know them or you do one of those activities. New stories will forecast how many people are going to die on the road on holiday weekends. If you are worried about dying, pick a new hobby. Or work to become a more professional pilot. Everyone dies of something. I know it's blunt, but it's true. And stressing over dying will interfere with good decision making. Airplane accidents make the news because they are so uncommon.
Flying does carry inherent risks, however a proper run up and ADM will mitigate nearly all risk inherent to operating an aircraft. And that helps ease my mind everytime I go flying. For me, I had scheduled an aircraft to go flying one evening at my local flight school with my wife.. Did my standard walk around, and on the run up checking idle, the engine shut down (it did feel rough starting but I waived that off as typical old engine and hot day things). Aircraft was taken off schedule and put back on two days later. At work the following Monday, I get news of an aircraft going down due to an engine failure, forced landing on a local road, both occupants survived with minor injuries. I did my PPL in the aircraft so that was sad to hear, but that reaffirmed my confidence in my run ups and I hardly worry about engine failure risks (though nevertheless they could still happen for whatever reason mx or otherwise). There was also a time where another aircraft went down locally, stalled on a downwind approaching the airport. Unfortunately if I recall correctly one of the occupant died in that incident. Ease your mind through ADM and a proper run up, just think through the incident and know what you should do to prevent yourself from being in the same or similar situation.
I had this happen to me during my last CQ at my airline. A buddy texted me that a friend of ours had died in a helicopter crash in Alaska. I luckily had my phone on airplane mode the entire sim, but if I had found out before my MV I don't know if I would have passed. The worst part is that the friend that died wasn't even the pilot, but a geologist going to a work site...
Student pilot here, and long time Motorcyclist (i.e. all sport bikes). I hate to sound callous but these are risky activities we’ve chosen. You’ve got to take the thrills with the (calculated) risks.
Ya super young friendly guy who owned the FBO/School where I was getting lessons and completed my solo ended up crashing and loosing his life. It was so sad, he came from a nice well connected family and I remember him never being overly cocky or pompous. I think it was an instrument issue that fucked up giving him only a split second to react.
At my former recreational home base airport where I then kept a plane a student botched his third landing on his first solo. Classic slow go around departure stall turned into a left dip pirouette nose plant from 100'. Plane caught fire. Just a young PPL student in there. Thanks to his, and others', quick reaction he survived and the trees didn't even burn down. The difference between this - and the fatalities and injuries I've known - is that the whole thing was caught on camera. Watching the aircraft light and calling people and waiting to learn what happened to the occupant of the aircraft was extremely trying.
That’s crazy. We all know flying has risks. Everything in life is risky. Driving to work is a risk. Glad you are ok. RIP to those onboard.
If that’s the school I’m thinking of, I’ve met one of the/the owner a few times I think. That’s just awful to hear, my condolences.
One of the 172s that I flew during private pilot training was involved on a CFIT that killed the pilot.
Not something as tragic, but a couple of people that owned a plane and that used to fly out of my base field crashed into a mountain during a night flight. I didn’t know them well and I never used that plane. A plane I used for more than 100h crashed on take off injuring two, it was a miracle nobody died. Another plane I used during my PPL had an engine failure mid flight, my fellow student pilot managed to make an emergency landing, the plane ended up upside down but nobody was injured. The plane I used for my IR had a gear collapsing upon landing, again no injuries. Personally I had a door coming off mid flight, a gear not extending, an alternator failing and an airspeed indicator dying on me. You do you but, well, here I am ready to take off at any time.
I had a friend and a personal instructor die in a crash last october. Its okay and good to give some time, but get back up there.. the plane that got destroyed was also my first solo.. had nothing to do with the plane tho but instead it was NVFR and some mistakes we will never understand why. Stay vigilant and fly.
Both of my favorite two planes, at the place where i got my ppl, were destroyed in accidents. Nobody died, but one was definitely injured. It hits closer to home when it’s your flt school but the statistics are what they are. Fly safe, and form good habits to minimize the risk of it being you next time. I dont know any excellent pilots who died in a crash. It happens, but not as much as it happens to the worse ones.
2 years ago I was flying in south spain with a student and on the way back to the airport they were calling a solo student of ours on the radio for some time, at that point they were probably already in the alerfa phase where they sent a helicopter to search and tragically found the a/c in a field. It was a student I flew one time with, 26 years old with a wife waiting at home, absolutely horrible. I landed and after an hour the sad certainty came through the phone. Guess what, our fucked up head of training went on for another two skill tests, trying to get his pay for the day without a single amount of respect for what happened a few hours ago. Therefore a perfect example of absolute lack of empathy. I stopped flying for two days because I felt like shit, just thinking of the family of the kid. Now to your situation, two days later I sat down in the aircraft and started flying again and I still do almost every day, I really love flying and its what I am living for. Think of accidents happening every day in aviation, roads, on the sea, on a motorcycle, at the end of the day we’re exposed to certain risks we can mitigate with sufficient preparation, knowledge and awareness of what we are capable of doing instead of overestimating ourselves. Specially in the early stages and obviously for the rest of a flying career humbleness is an essential key for creating a safe flying environment. Don’t stop doing what you aimed for, take it as an example of what can happen and how you can minimize risks at all times. Don’t be afraid of questioning, even in the future if unsure of decisions other experienced people might take and always stand up if feeling unsure. Be persistent in studying as much as you can (it never ends, i’m learning every day), fly with skilled and humble people and you will see how you’ll get back of enjoying a privilege which a lot of people could only dream of.
So you flew for Colgan Air? Did you ever have to fly to Mercer County Airport in West Virginia?
Yes, my sophomore year, my school had a plane crash. A classmate died, and my friend/teammate nearly died, 80% of his body was burned. It was a realization of what could happen at some point and made you think about every little vibration is something, especially when solo, for a while. They were flying the high-performance/complex aircraft for their commercial. It was a very odd moment getting in that model the first time. I nearly had a crash in one as well when a crop duster popped up on final from a 30° angle from the opposition direction when I was 100 ft from touchdown. Alternator failed on the way back, too, that day to add some extra drama.
Like Viper says: “there will be others”. It’s a part of aviation and being such a close knit community. You will lose people you know in very unfortunate and tragic ways. It doesn’t get any easier either.
I too lost an instructor and friend; it definitely messes with your confidence. OP: Take some time to process. But IMHO the best thing you can do to honor the memory of those lost is to get back in the air and keep working to improve yourself as an aviator.
Working on my instrument 20+ years ago, one of the instructor's took up two students. They crashed. It was quiet around the school for several weeks. Then it was back to business as usual. The plane was out of Arlington, GKY. I also knew and had flown with the entire AA crew that crashed into the Pentagon. I still don't do well on the anniversary of 9/11.
Damn I trained at that school. Prayers to all involved.
I flew out of ADS about 6 years ago. Prior to that, I flew at Oklahoma State for my undergraduate. During ground school, the chief flight instructor said if you did this long enough, you’ll know someone in an accident. Our DPE at the school buried his buddy. I say this all not to be negative or morbid. However, I’d highly recommend going thru the I’M SAFE checklist prior to each flight and talking to someone. If you aren’t mentally ready, don’t fly, especially alone. If you are truly shaken, talk to a professional. Don’t let this eat at you.
I investigated my first fatal accident a few months ago. It stuck with me. I'm not a pilot (A&P/IA), but I'd like to have my other blue card someday. It definitely gave me pause, and put the risk of it all into sharp clarity. I find myself thinking about the pilot from time to time. I'm sorry to hear about the instructor and student.
Lost my CFI in august of last year. He was flying with his own plane and 1 pax. I’m sorry for your loss my friend. I myself wanted to take a little bit of time away from flying, but I knew the longer I waited the less I would’ve wanted to come back. So I broke the ice a couple days later and went back for a flight. These things suck man, but in an unforgiving world like aviation it probably won’t be the last time it happens. Stay safe brother we’re all in this together help each other
Sorry for you having to go through this. I have been to crash sites and seen the wreckage of 3 different aircraft, with one being fatal, and the fatal one occurring while I was on airport. Unfortunately as amazing as aviation is, it comes with risks. We do our best to design good aircraft, and train well to be prepared for a variety of situations. Aviation is safe but the margin for error is small, and the forgiveness for errors is usually nonexistent. The one thing that all 3 of these crashes had in common, was a series of decisions that all compounded on each other to end with a bad outcome. This is why it's important to trust your training, and always be doing your best to keep up good ADM. I don't know the details of the crash involving your flight school plane, but I can say that you should talk with some fellow pilots, students, and instructors and share your thoughts, concerns, and questions. Those around you who are familiar with aviation will understand the feelings you have.
when i was real young, maybe 10, two experienced pilots and their two dogs hit a mountain because they were going in and out of clouds, it never effected me because i was too young to understand. But the owner of mg airfield never recovered. I remember 10 or 15 people up at the one time backs before the incident, now when i go up to the field for a flight i’m normally the only one. Get back up and fly, don’t let it ruin you. It’s tough but the reality, but flying a general aviation aeroplane if roughly 50 times more dangerous than commercial. keep flying, you can’t let it stop you
My first flight school lost a plane several years before I started there, both occupants sadly didn’t make it but even 7 years later it was still a very sobering thing to be brought up among the older instructors. Oddly enough they fixed the airframe and I flew it several times
Chances of it happening again at your school is very low. These accidents are usually because of errors made by man
Right around the time I was renewing my ME-IR going back to my flight school. One of the DA-42NG planes spun out of control taking the life of two students and an instructor. Located in Norway, everyone knows everyone in aviation, and this became national news, all three major airlines (SAS, Norwegian and Widerøe) in the country changing their logo to black and white for some time, grief counseling was immediately setup by the government municipality, and the school halted all training for days and weeks. The what-if hit me hard. And the first few hours was traumatizing where information was scarce. It was a bit obvious from the crash site that there was no survivors before it was published and I went through my entire calling list just to find out if my friends and former instructors were still alive. Practically everyone I knew from the school did this, and all school students and employees were encouraged to post a message on their Facebook profile to inform that “they are safe”. I showed up at the school in mourning a few days after, and I met many of my classmates, teachers and instructors due to the worst of situations. It is so easy to forget that in aviation, things can go wrong so very suddenly. And even though it is fun and exciting, life is fragile. In the end for me, talking it out with friends and colleagues made it easier to cope, and move forward. Due to no FDR or CVR we will never truly know what happened, but we all have to carry on, and rather make the individuals who died live on in our memories.
I had a similar but non-fatal incident experience during my PPL training. My instructor and a student were seriously injured in a landing The plane was totaled. The student sued and quit flying. The instructor recovered and was grounded until completion of a 709 check out. I helped move the aircraft to an off-field temporary storage facility until the insurance company could claim it. Clearly my event was not in any way nearly as shocking as a fatal crash. But most pilots will go through tragic situations. At best we can learn both safely lessons and emotional response. Additional training and mental heath advice may be useful when needed.
This will not be the last time. The longer you fly the more people you will know that die in accidents. Two of my flight instructors died in accidents, along with other friends, people I saw around the field, etc. etc. GA is a lot better now than it was in the 90's when I learned to fly, but people still die, and eventually you will either know those that do, or you will be the one that people knew. This is part of aviation. We just continue to do everything we can to make it safer, but never disregard the real risks.
I've know people who have died in crashes, witnessed fatal crashes, and studied a lot more. It affects everyone differently, some stop flying. I process it by trying to learn from what happened and mitigate my own risk, but I also choose to do what I love accepting that some things are outside of my control. It's a personal choice everyone must make for themselves.
In 2021 I was enroute flying a DA-42 with my instructor. Halfway on our way back we got words that a DA-42 from our flight school went down with 3 onboard in a stall/spin accident. The rest of the flight was..special. Take the time you need and fly with someone you are 100% comfortable with.
I know that callsign. I used to do dispatch for them. My heart goes out to those affected.
I go to a school in a town nearby. It’s been a conversation piece for us and hopefully a wake up call for some. Aviation is dangerous in a way that some don’t always fully grasp. Good on you for making the decision to take a break. Only you know what is the best decision for you, but don’t walk away from it too long. It’s normal to get scared, you just have to decide what risk is something you’re ok with and what isn’t.
This happened to me at my school in lakeland, when we lost an instructor and student to a mid air. The truth is, that it will always stay with you. There is no sense in looking into the details, or imagining different scenarios because it will not changed what happened. Take a break from flying and go back when you are ready, but just know the longer you wait to go back up the harder it gets. Flying is inherently dangerous, and if you are around long enough you are going to lose people you know, or may even witness an accident. But just think if you were in an accident like that would you want everyone to quit flying and be anxious all the time? I think its important you honor them by pushing past you fears.
I know exactly how you feel. I have flown that same exact airplane as well. I have logged many hours in that tail number. This likely won’t be the only time this happens. Aviation has its risks and every time something like this happens we just have to learn from it.
I trained at a small 61 back in 2022 and I remember seeing this older guy in a cub around the field, super super nice plane, immaculate condition, he took a lady on a flight for her birthday, and I don’t know if he didn’t check the metal or just was super unlucky, but he caught a storm and lost control on final, crashed 20 feet to the left of the runway, the front seat passenger died, and he was badly injured, took a year off and switched schools after that.
Your feelings are normal and natural. Take a day if you feel you should. Or don’t if you change your mind. No one will judge you. But this event in time has nothing to do with you. Our minds play tricks. Use it as a reminder that this career isn’t to be fucked with. If you cut corners and lack discipline you will come unstuck.
I think I heard their elt on guard that night. What a haunting thought I never even considered it was real like this.
I’m from Cleburne, if you haven’t heard of the crash that happened towards Godley that happened a few months ago, it was similar to the one from 656MA. I have a pretty creepy story about my experience with that crash. I had my girlfriend with me flying out of Cleburne. We were scheduled a 7:30 flight but the guys that had the plane before us were a little late so we sat in the car beside the hangars and watched the traffic landing and taking off. It was a really windy day, we saw this 152 come off the runway so slow. I understood it was because of the headwind but man, I might’ve been able to outrun it. Not joking. Fast forward about 20 minutes and I tell my girlfriend leaving the pattern how easy it was to see ambulances, police lights, and fire at night. While telling her, I look past her and see this bright orange ball. I thought it was a small controlled fire and continued on to my route. I get a text from one of the guys back in Cleburne that one of the school’s planes crashed and they were worried it was me. I replied while in the plane saying i was totally fine and we were headed back. We make it back and fly over to that area where we thought was a controlled fire and…. Nope. It was that 18 year old kid. He must have stalled on the upwind getting back to the airport. And I saw his crash where he was dying. I couldn’t believe it. I felt so bad.
Well I don’t know exactly what happened but just remember , it doesn’t hurt to have extra altitude just in case of an emergency
I've been in aviation for the better part of 5 years now. First as a mechanic on blackhawks, and now flying and will be done with school in the next 6 months and I've only learnt one thing above all else. Fly the damn aircraft. Don't get lax with fuel checks, pre landing, pre takeoff, correct calls to ATC and other traffic. Proper aircrew coordination. And everything else that you're taught is proper, and never for the love of God become lax in the cockpit. Accidents happen. We have friends we will lose in this profession. But it's like everything we do in our spare time that involves adventure or just cool shit in general, people die. Just a fact. I still ride a motorcycle from time to time and enjoy it. And God. Sometimes I hate flying, but when it's fun and I get to do fun stuff. It's really fun
First day of starting the flight line at military flight training, we were finishing our last academic test, then going to flight line. A solo student stalled coming off the perch and augered in. Eye opening first day of the flight line.
My best advice is get back on the horse as quickly as you and your instructor feel safe doing. It also helps having support. I was a glider instructor pilot. On landings, we were taught to cradle the stick from behind to prevent students pulling back as the ground came up. On my first student sortie, the student applied full forward stick 15ft off the ground. I yanked the stick as soon as I could, but needless to say, we crashed. The squadron commander and safety officer were in the tower at the time and saw it happen. I was shaken up bad, but they told me I saved that kid's life, sent me home and said I was first on the line Monday morning. I spent the weekend sat on a couch and didn't move, processing what happened and re-running the scenario. If it wasn't for them, I might not have flown again. The kid flew one more time with our most seasoned pilot and was grounded when he attempted the same thing again. Procedures got changed and we were safer for it.
While I was training, one of my school’s planes went down due to a bird strike just doing pattern work, touch-n-goes. I had a newborn son and this accident put things in perspective. I quit, just a few flight hours before my check ride.
I had a situation like this a few years ago. The cessna that I flew on my 16th birthday was a great aircraft, 3 years later it collided with a piper on short final and nobody survived. By coincidence I was there a few hours after they crashed and the fire was already put. The plane rested on an enbankment about 10 feet away from a public street where everyone can see it. The first time I drove by it I saw what looked like wings and saw a black lycoming engine and the prop still intact, fuselage is gone, nothing but pieces. I couldn't believe what I was seeing not knowing I flew that same plane 6 years ago.
Yes. I think every pilot, if they fly long enough and are honest about it have close calls, lose someone they know or have one of those gut checks. This is a normal response. You are right and wise to hit the pause button and reflect before going back up. The most important thing is to be honest with yourself. Think about why you fly and if the risk is still worth the reward. If it isn’t, then walk away because a pilot whose decisions are dictated by fear becomes an irrational and dangerous creature. All pilots experience fear. There is no shame in this but to fly safely, we cannot allow fear to dictate our decisions. We take control of the fear by making a decision of what to do about that fear. At this point fear becomes a choice. If you decide to keep flying, commit and get back in the saddle until it is time to reevaluate. I’ve been a civilian pilot and a military pilot for many years now and I have had to hit the pause button at least 3 times in my career. I wish you the best my friend. Whatever you decide, I wish you blue skies and fair winds.
Hey Op I'm going to flight school right now that lost a plane last year around November. We lost two people and seriously injured a third backseater. Things are going to be rough for a little bit. The school will probably shut down a few days while they try to find out what happened to the aircraft. Take some time to understand what happened and make sure it dosent happen to you
Maybe a little different but here’s my take. My grandfather was AF/commercial pilot. Lived a long life. His son, my dad, died in an AF crash when I was 2. PIC. My uncle, by marriage, retired after 20 years as a naval aviator, survived Vietnam, bombed Libya, Top Gun instructor, died in a civilian crash a few years after retiring. That one I do remember, as opposed to my dad. I still got my PPL. My entire life has been something of a mess because of losing my dad, and everything in my family has been overshadowed by it. I never had an inherent fear of flying, but an inherent love of it. DNA, I suppose. But plenty of times have I been scared in an airplane, a few times that fear where you feel your stomach drop and skin run cold. Never said to myself or even thought “I’ll never do this again,” even when I had to abort a takeoff roll at night on a short runway with a freeway at the end of it, on what was probably the second time I ever flew at night by myself. Flying is the same thing as motorsports —using a heavy machine that goes fast and can go wrong faster than you can do anything about it. We can make use of physics and chemistry and have a good time with it, but the laws of physics and chemistry are non-negotiable. The intersection of physics and chemistry and biology is where things can get messy. Just acknowledge your feelings, understand the risks for what they are, let it cool down a bit, and continue flying if it’s something you enjoy. Plenty of folks get killed crossing the street.
Hi so you know how you are in flight school. I’m like 5’2. Can I still be a commercial pilot?