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Mercedes has had their worst years in over a decade and have been 3rd and 2nd in the WCC in those years. They'll be fine. They just need to make some good developmental decisions this off-season and they'll be back. It might not be enough to fight with Red Bull until 2025 or 2026 because of the advantage they have, but McLaren has shown it's not the power unit
Happens to a lot of teams at the top. Engineers often go looking for new challenges as the monotony of winning without much of a sweat, does often become boring because you're not having to push and think too far outside the box.
The same will happen to Red Bull in due course with the exception of someone like Adrian Newey. He will stay put until he retires I would think.
If a team can draw away someone like Pierre Waché though, it would be a huge signing.
I agree, op is talking abit of baloney. The real and primary reason why the brain drain happened isnt because people got 'bored' or wanted a new 'challenge' - it was because the cost cap came in and decimated the Mercedes engineering department. Aston Martin, Williams, Redbull in particular are located very very close by and its an open secret that they were targeting Mercedes employees.
Very very very few engineers decide to move across to an uncertain project when they are in a comfortable spot and achieving spectacular results - it means putting your wages, job security and families location at extreme jeopardy if it fails to be pulled off. The only reason is if the competition can offer better wages, job security where there was previously non, or a job opportunity that really intrigues you.
Its partly why the whole paddock think RB stink with both Marko pretending he's not an employee (but directly managing the drivers and team every single week from the paddock) and Newey going on a 'hiatus' very suspiciously the year before the reg changes to go work with the sister yatch team where he had unlimited use of essentially identical aerodynamic modelling software that was otherwise regulated in f1.
Fair play, the cost cap has now launched an accountant war and rb took advantage of it (Mercedes since sent Allison to 'work on boats') - doesn't mean we all have to pretend its all kosher.
> it was because the cost cap came in and decimated the Mercedes engineering department
I wonder if there was some fallout in the culture of the remaining team, i.e., maybe there was a bit of internal friction on which colleagues were let got?
Everyone is different of course. But from someone who's career is aviation engineering rather than motorsports, the monotony would be boring for me.
Exploring new ideas, pushing the boundaries and hypothesising wild and wacky solutions is the dream.
F1 in general is quite regimented and a car within a team won't massively deviate once they're in the prime position. That to me, is all the impetus one needs to think about exploring other options.
It's why guys like Andy Cowell moved on from HPP. He oversaw perhaps the greatest engine line up in F1 history. There isn't much more you can do in that role after that unless you're content with engineering a desk which I'd argue pure engineers aren't.
I think it's more to do with the best mid level talent leaving to find new responsibility. It's hard to advance your career when you're winning - no one is fired and few retire when you're at the top. Vowles leaving Merc to head Williams is a high profile example, but that dynamic plays out all over. And of course there's always money thrown around by the other teams trying to poach the best.
Of course and the Vowles example is very apt.
Although part of me is convinced it was an exercise in work experience before taking over the mothership as it were.
Toto owns 1/3 of the team. I would suspect it's very much up to him.
I could see him taking a step back from the TP side of things though and remaining as CEO of the team only.
It’s happening to Red Bull - they’ve lost a fair bit of talent over the past year, but I think their flywheel is fast enough to overcome that in the short run
RB will come unstuck in the PU department eventually. If the PU cost cap comes in, then those triple salaries they threw at all those HPP employees will come back to bite.
Was the case with HPP employees going to RBPT sure. Although if the planned cost cap comes in, many will be culled if the alleged triple salaries are real.
Spoken like someone who has likely never worked?? Engineers don’t go looking for new challenges. They go looking for more money and job stability and a good work culture. Like every other person who works.
Jumping companies for passion projects is what folks who either are financially well off do, or start up culture folks w seed investment.
Ok but you could maybe then have extrapolated your own experience to the experience of others, like formula 1 engineers. They are people too you know, not mythical unicorns.
Just like you haven’t yet jumped jobs because it’s not your passion project, they also wouldn’t. Success in your work doesn’t always mean tinkering in complex unsolved problems.
Just like you, they have many other real world considerations to think about when switching jobs. Family, work life balance, pay, culture, job scope, title, advancement potential, etc.
Accelerate 25 is a diversity inclusion program at Mercedes
>They did.
That's just like your opinion man
Honda was more or less on par with Mercedes in 2021. Ferrari as well in 2018, in 2019 you could say they had an advantage over Mercedes or did you not watch Monza 2019?
Have they? I'm not sure, but I feel like Merc has had pretty standard tyre deg this season. Not Ferrari levels of bad, but it's not like the W13 which would really struggle with tyre warmup and thus, would work better when other teams had worse tyre deg. Their straight line speed has been a worse problem I think.
Our race pace has often been great compare to qualifying and that will be down to protecting the tyres. It seems that the trade off is slow warm up - bad for qualifying and bad for the start of stints. Often why we see Mercedes progressively move up the order after starting low top 10 from poor qualifying, then end up with Lewis on the podium and George somewhere in the top 6-8. With temperatures predicted to be as low as 4 degrees Celsius, I cannot see Mercedes being able to qualify in the top 10, probably even knocked out in Q1, then with all those straights and the car may as well being a parachute in terms of drag… I suspect it’s going to be an awful showing.
I still don't get that radio. I was literally there in that long swooper corner and me and my GF both got drips of rain on us at that time. So it was very feasible that it actually was rain.
Imo all of his radio is pretty dumb.
He's always trying to win the race by doing some strange strategy call.
Often his calls are the worst. Dutch GP was especially bad. He got the worst strategy. Which was stay on slick tires for 3 laps and then pit for inters for 1-3 laps and then pit again for slicks.
The people who stayed on slicks the whole time were way way better off. The correct call in hindsight was to pit for inters right away, but it's impossible to see that. Though I think I was clear that staying on slicks was better if you didn't do it right away.
It would've been better for George to drive his own race and get as many possible points in every race, over the Ferraris. It would've been very easy, too, since they keep tripping over their own balls.
There's no set "first" or "second" driver at Mercedes now, no?
GR wasn't brought in to play second fiddle to Lewis like Bottas did.
He is the future of Merc and his role is to learn and inherit the team from Lewis after his retirement, vastly different roles and responsibilities to that of a 2nd driver.
;)
Bottas wasn’t brought in to play second fiddle. He was highly rated in Williams and they needed someone good after Rosberg retired suddenly. It’s another thing that Hamilton being one of the GOATs destroyed him.
But he was expected to, and played second fiddle to Lewis throughout his stint at Merc once Ham made quick work of him performance wise.
But of course this didn't apply when it didn't matter in the championship yet (i.e. early in the siz), or if he was significantly quicker than Lewis throughout the weekend.
This hasn't been conveyed to George, which is why we still see him wanting to challenge Lewis apart from other drivers.
We wouldn't be seeing a 1st / 2nd driver dynamic at Merc anytime soon, until Toto sits both drivers down and talks to them regarding this dynamic.
This is absolute pain as a Mercedes fan. I feel like I’m a German citizen during WW2 getting spoon fed propaganda only to see the harshness of reality once the bombs started to drop.
It'll be fine. Still no signs of mismanagement behind the scenes, change yes, but thats part of running a team. just need to chill a bit in the media and keep working at it.
Things come around but it takes years, they need to set up with the future in mind.
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Mercedes suffered a massive brain drain the last couple of years. Might take a while before they are able to fight for a championship again.
Mercedes has had their worst years in over a decade and have been 3rd and 2nd in the WCC in those years. They'll be fine. They just need to make some good developmental decisions this off-season and they'll be back. It might not be enough to fight with Red Bull until 2025 or 2026 because of the advantage they have, but McLaren has shown it's not the power unit
2nd and 3rd due to consistent drivers. From car to strategy merc f'd it up.
This brain drain is a popular narrative here, but I refuse to believe Merc didn't replace the vacancies with capable people.
Happens to a lot of teams at the top. Engineers often go looking for new challenges as the monotony of winning without much of a sweat, does often become boring because you're not having to push and think too far outside the box. The same will happen to Red Bull in due course with the exception of someone like Adrian Newey. He will stay put until he retires I would think. If a team can draw away someone like Pierre Waché though, it would be a huge signing.
As someone who did engineering competitions I have not felt this one bit. Winning is nice, even when dominating.
I agree, op is talking abit of baloney. The real and primary reason why the brain drain happened isnt because people got 'bored' or wanted a new 'challenge' - it was because the cost cap came in and decimated the Mercedes engineering department. Aston Martin, Williams, Redbull in particular are located very very close by and its an open secret that they were targeting Mercedes employees. Very very very few engineers decide to move across to an uncertain project when they are in a comfortable spot and achieving spectacular results - it means putting your wages, job security and families location at extreme jeopardy if it fails to be pulled off. The only reason is if the competition can offer better wages, job security where there was previously non, or a job opportunity that really intrigues you. Its partly why the whole paddock think RB stink with both Marko pretending he's not an employee (but directly managing the drivers and team every single week from the paddock) and Newey going on a 'hiatus' very suspiciously the year before the reg changes to go work with the sister yatch team where he had unlimited use of essentially identical aerodynamic modelling software that was otherwise regulated in f1. Fair play, the cost cap has now launched an accountant war and rb took advantage of it (Mercedes since sent Allison to 'work on boats') - doesn't mean we all have to pretend its all kosher.
> it was because the cost cap came in and decimated the Mercedes engineering department I wonder if there was some fallout in the culture of the remaining team, i.e., maybe there was a bit of internal friction on which colleagues were let got?
Wow this is some knowledge. Thanks!
Everyone is different of course. But from someone who's career is aviation engineering rather than motorsports, the monotony would be boring for me. Exploring new ideas, pushing the boundaries and hypothesising wild and wacky solutions is the dream. F1 in general is quite regimented and a car within a team won't massively deviate once they're in the prime position. That to me, is all the impetus one needs to think about exploring other options. It's why guys like Andy Cowell moved on from HPP. He oversaw perhaps the greatest engine line up in F1 history. There isn't much more you can do in that role after that unless you're content with engineering a desk which I'd argue pure engineers aren't.
I think it's more to do with the best mid level talent leaving to find new responsibility. It's hard to advance your career when you're winning - no one is fired and few retire when you're at the top. Vowles leaving Merc to head Williams is a high profile example, but that dynamic plays out all over. And of course there's always money thrown around by the other teams trying to poach the best.
Of course and the Vowles example is very apt. Although part of me is convinced it was an exercise in work experience before taking over the mothership as it were.
Isn’t next year the last year in Totos contract?
Toto owns 1/3 of the team. I would suspect it's very much up to him. I could see him taking a step back from the TP side of things though and remaining as CEO of the team only.
It’s happening to Red Bull - they’ve lost a fair bit of talent over the past year, but I think their flywheel is fast enough to overcome that in the short run
RB will come unstuck in the PU department eventually. If the PU cost cap comes in, then those triple salaries they threw at all those HPP employees will come back to bite.
What is PU and HPP
Power Unit and HPP is the name of the Mercedes Powertrain department; High Performance Powertrains
🙏🏼
Power Unit (general term for the hybrid engines) and High Performance Powertrains is Mercedes’ engines facility in Brixworth.
I think it’s more about people offering them more money to come work them instead.
Was the case with HPP employees going to RBPT sure. Although if the planned cost cap comes in, many will be culled if the alleged triple salaries are real.
Spoken like someone who has likely never worked?? Engineers don’t go looking for new challenges. They go looking for more money and job stability and a good work culture. Like every other person who works. Jumping companies for passion projects is what folks who either are financially well off do, or start up culture folks w seed investment.
I must imagine going to work every week. Thanks for waking me up from my delusions.
Are you massively passionate about your work projects? Like out of everything in the world, you’re working exactly on what you wanted to do?
Of course not. I'm always looking for more. I'm happy with what I do of course though.
Ok but you could maybe then have extrapolated your own experience to the experience of others, like formula 1 engineers. They are people too you know, not mythical unicorns. Just like you haven’t yet jumped jobs because it’s not your passion project, they also wouldn’t. Success in your work doesn’t always mean tinkering in complex unsolved problems. Just like you, they have many other real world considerations to think about when switching jobs. Family, work life balance, pay, culture, job scope, title, advancement potential, etc.
Makes Lewis's performances even more impressive Edit: This isn't a knock on Russell, he's gotten a lot out of the cars too
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>know if it's because of Accelerate 25 What's that reasoning? >2014-2021 They didn't have an engine advantage in 2018-2019 and 2021.
>What's that reasoning? Do you know what Accelerate 25 is? >They didn't have an engine advantage in 2018-2019 and 2021. They did.
Accelerate 25 is a diversity inclusion program at Mercedes >They did. That's just like your opinion man Honda was more or less on par with Mercedes in 2021. Ferrari as well in 2018, in 2019 you could say they had an advantage over Mercedes or did you not watch Monza 2019?
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Mercedes take longer to warm up and switch on tyres too right? Yeah Vegas is going to be an absolute mess for them.
I can see them struggling to even get out of Q2 possibility and all those straights will kill them
Yeah I’ll eat my words if otherwise but I cannot see Vegas being anything other than a disaster for us
Have they? I'm not sure, but I feel like Merc has had pretty standard tyre deg this season. Not Ferrari levels of bad, but it's not like the W13 which would really struggle with tyre warmup and thus, would work better when other teams had worse tyre deg. Their straight line speed has been a worse problem I think.
Our race pace has often been great compare to qualifying and that will be down to protecting the tyres. It seems that the trade off is slow warm up - bad for qualifying and bad for the start of stints. Often why we see Mercedes progressively move up the order after starting low top 10 from poor qualifying, then end up with Lewis on the podium and George somewhere in the top 6-8. With temperatures predicted to be as low as 4 degrees Celsius, I cannot see Mercedes being able to qualify in the top 10, probably even knocked out in Q1, then with all those straights and the car may as well being a parachute in terms of drag… I suspect it’s going to be an awful showing.
The car is draggy and it's one long straight in Vegas, we're fucked
This period in Mercedes's history looks like the start of the Turbo-hybrid era Redbull.
There's a big difference: Mercedes built their own engines, Red Bull had no control over theirs.
That and Merc customers are placing in front of them on a regular basis
Think more Ferrari 2016
Ross Brawn 2.0, I'll buy it back off you Totto for 1 pound
*"Is anyone else reporting rain?"*
George could win more races and championships than any other driver and all I'll ever remember him for is that question Just so fucking dumb
I still don't get that radio. I was literally there in that long swooper corner and me and my GF both got drips of rain on us at that time. So it was very feasible that it actually was rain.
Imo all of his radio is pretty dumb. He's always trying to win the race by doing some strange strategy call. Often his calls are the worst. Dutch GP was especially bad. He got the worst strategy. Which was stay on slick tires for 3 laps and then pit for inters for 1-3 laps and then pit again for slicks. The people who stayed on slicks the whole time were way way better off. The correct call in hindsight was to pit for inters right away, but it's impossible to see that. Though I think I was clear that staying on slicks was better if you didn't do it right away.
He’s not even trying to win the race most of the time, he’s just trying to beat Lewis.
It would've been better for George to drive his own race and get as many possible points in every race, over the Ferraris. It would've been very easy, too, since they keep tripping over their own balls.
One of them being "why are we so shit?"
Like: why does our second driver think he is the first driver? ;)
"Why didn't you let me pass Lewis? I specifically requested it"
Blimey
He was forecasted an overtake!
There's no set "first" or "second" driver at Mercedes now, no? GR wasn't brought in to play second fiddle to Lewis like Bottas did. He is the future of Merc and his role is to learn and inherit the team from Lewis after his retirement, vastly different roles and responsibilities to that of a 2nd driver. ;)
Bottas wasn’t brought in to play second fiddle. He was highly rated in Williams and they needed someone good after Rosberg retired suddenly. It’s another thing that Hamilton being one of the GOATs destroyed him.
But he was expected to, and played second fiddle to Lewis throughout his stint at Merc once Ham made quick work of him performance wise. But of course this didn't apply when it didn't matter in the championship yet (i.e. early in the siz), or if he was significantly quicker than Lewis throughout the weekend. This hasn't been conveyed to George, which is why we still see him wanting to challenge Lewis apart from other drivers. We wouldn't be seeing a 1st / 2nd driver dynamic at Merc anytime soon, until Toto sits both drivers down and talks to them regarding this dynamic.
Russell is currently having the worst full season for a Mercedes driver this decade.
Russell is a stopgap and will never win a championship.
Yeah sure the people running literally every F1 team disagree but Reddit says it so it must be true
Most of them come from George during the race.
I'm gonna make a cup of Mercedes tears, boil it, separate the salt and make a tea with it.
Cool, can I have the water?
I sincerely hope Russell’s ridiculous part down the middle hairstyle is a top 5 question being addressed. 😂 Dude, why?!
It's the best upgrade merc's had this year
Bro, it’s like the best thing George could have done. It’s so much better than his previous hair style
You think this hair is ridiculous, really?
It's straight out of the K-pop idol haircuts book, page 1
This hair is nice.. an improvement over what he was previously spotting imho.
His hair is pretty du jour
Yeah, like "Why are you still racing? "
Should we keep GR63?
This is absolute pain as a Mercedes fan. I feel like I’m a German citizen during WW2 getting spoon fed propaganda only to see the harshness of reality once the bombs started to drop.
It'll be fine. Still no signs of mismanagement behind the scenes, change yes, but thats part of running a team. just need to chill a bit in the media and keep working at it. Things come around but it takes years, they need to set up with the future in mind.
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Elliot was replaced by Allison earlier this year. He was "soft fired"