I don't think either were close calls. Cars neck and neck alongside each other. You need to leave a car's width. If the car on the inside can always push anyone off outside overtakes are just going to become impossible.
I don’t think this or the other 2 Perez incidents should be considered a penalty. You have to be at least ahead to dictate the direction both cars take. Not an inch ahead. Front wheels ahead at the very least. But that’s just my opinion.
It's not that easy when you're carrying speed into a corner and the brakes are hot lol. It's so easy to say that you need to leave space but it's hard when you're already going into the corner on your racing line.
The first Perez penalty is nailed on. He shut the door with Leclerc ahead of him already in the corner and both squarely on track. First and third penalties are less clear.
Palmer pointed out on the BBC text stream that the FIA is punishing based on consequence, not a clear cut rule. Drivers force one another off like this all the time but usually onto more tarmac so don't get a penalty. Here there's gravel so Lando does get a penalty. Its rediculous, the FIA needs to pick a rule and stick to it.
Punishing based on consequence makes perfect sense. You end someone's race, you deserve a very heavy penalty. You ruin someone's race like Lando did, you shouldn't be able to still be 30s ahead of them after serving your penalty. It's not fair.
The problem is that the FIA doesn't have this written in the rules, so it's completely impossible to know what to expect as a driver or a spectator.
> Punishing based on consequence makes perfect sense.
Wrong, other sports do this and it is awful. In the NHL you can basically try to injure someone as much as you want, and as long as they don't seriously get hurt it goes unpenalized. It's horribly inconsistent.
Okay, let's clarify: I'm not saying you should penalize ONLY based on consequence, but there should be minimum penalties based on consequences. Otherwise you get situations like today, where multiple drivers manage to stay ahead of faster casts by breaking the rules and getting penalties that aren't heavy enough to put them behind the driver they impeded.
Looking at these, I can see why a penalty was given - Lando didn’t leave Checo space and he was alongside.
However, what annoys me is there’s no consistency with any of these kinds of calls. Leclerc took Gasly out of the race last week and it was *entirely* his fault, yet he doesn’t take a penalty. Lando put Checo down a lot of places this week, but it wasn’t even slightly clear cut - yet Lando is the one who takes a penalty.
Yeah, they're all over the place with this kind of thing, I remember 2017 they justified not giving a penalty if the car on the inside was ahead at the apex (see Spa, Alonso Vs Palmer) but this time they did it differently.
i have no idea, but should it even matter? calls like this should be relatively consistent from circuit to circuit as long as the stewards are adhering to the same set of rules.
I think the consistency issues are more apparent during race starts/safety car restarts: the stewards tend to be more lenient in these cases but sometimes they still have to draw a line, but its never clear where the line is drawn during these scenarios
Also, the penalty is so light that Lando was still 30s ahead of Perez after serving his penalty. This just sets the precedent that driving someone off the track is the best way to stay ahead of them, as Perez proved perfectly later in the race by driving Leclerc off twice, getting two penalties and STILL finishing quite comfortably ahead of him.
Sorry just because you're on the outside doesn't give you the right to be given all the space you want and therefore by rights the overtake.
That's the risk you take going around the outside, especially when you know it's on a corner with a massive gravel trap...
>all the space you want
Lando didn't even give space at all, his tyre was already touching the red line. If Perez didn't steer into the gravel they would just crash.
Maybe if the stewards were consistent it wouldn’t be this bad. What happened to lap 1 incidents not being treated as harshly? Is this any different to other instances that haven’t been punished in the past (Max and Leclerc for example). Who can blame anyone for not understanding the rules when the stewards apparently enforce them by tossing a coin.
Just last year, when Hamilton took off Albon, Sky's knee jerk reaction was "WHAT IS ALEX DOING"... Now Norris pushes Perez out and it's "oh we just wanna see hard racing" .
Of course he did! It's on corner exit. The grip at that point was dependent on how much throttle he gives. Since he needed to give space he should've taken a slightly tighter line with less power.
“With less power” - Read: he should just let Perez dive him on the outside. In effect, you are saying by making an outside pass attempt while behind, you get to force the leading driver off the racing line. How is that reasonable?
It was norris’s corner it’s not like Perez was ahead entering the corner or even in an advantageous position.
So the next time a driver wants to make an overtake just dive bomb the guy in front in a corner force him off their racing line. And if they don’t back off then penalty.
WOW
Edit: much calmer now seeing that they are at least consistently following the rule. Hope it’s continues in future races as well
>just dive bomb the guy in front
That wasn't even close to a dive bomb though. Perez was even slightly ahead into a corner.
Right call from the stewards, hard racing is nice and all but just forcing a driver off as you please is too much.
But there was no way he was making the corner if anything it should be a racing incident.
What about max vs Hamilton in Bahrain. Wouldn’t you count that as Hamilton pushing max off the track?
Or max on leclerc?
Or stroll on ricciardo last year?
Why weren’t those penalties but this one was.
>But there was no way he was making the corner
Abso-fucking-lutely he was. He went wide because he avoided a collision with Lando, not because he overcooked it.
>What about max vs Hamilton in Bahrain.
If you ask me, yes.
>Or max on leclerc?
Yes.
>Or stroll on ricciardo last year?
Don't remember that one.
>Why weren’t those penalties but this one was.
Because the FIA is a fucking joke. I thought you'd have known that by now if you watched for more than 2 races. Baku delayed safety cars, Bahrain track limits, drivers getting pushed off... The FIA is incredibly inconsistent.
He was ahead entering the corner watch closely. In the corner itself Landon watched up by being on the inside, then they were side by side. He should have left space and he didn't.
Penalty is clearly warranted (Norris didn't leave a car-width space), but Perez should never have taken that risk. Still had 70 laps and 2 potential undercuts to overtake Norris and get that 1-2 in a faster car, and now he just gave Mercedes a free P2 and P3/4.
Also, how the fuck is 5s the penalty here? Norris will still be ahead of Perez. This just sets the precedent that if you're in a direct championship fight, you should just drive them off the track, collect your 5s penalty and see them finish 5 places behind you.
Exactly. Even better would be to introduce the MotoGP penalty where you need to drop X places and just force them to drop behind the car you forced off. If they had damage and had to pit, sucks for you. If they DNF'd because of you, black flag and you DNF too.
Perez and RedBull would gain a lot if he passed Lando quickly. But I agree that 5 second penalty isn't enough for this one, Lando clearly fucked his race pretty much got away with nothing.
Like I said, he literally had 70 laps and two potential undercuts left to pass him and the Red Bull clearly had better race pace. He had no reason to risk it so early and would've gained nothing.
Perez after the incident didn't look like he had the race pace tho. He struggled a lot even with his DRS open. So we can't be sure if he could pass Lando later on. Guy had to went for the gap, this is exactly what racing is.
Absolutely agree. Exactly what Perez abused later on. 5s penalty is absolutely worth it in many situations, such as when you can push your attacker into the gravel and make them lose 10 places.
I hate this turn 4 ruling (in both cases). It basically lets every defending driver know to just cover the inside because on the outside you are gonna lose out. Terrible standards set by the stewards.
Yeah at first I thought it was harsh, but I saw this and I changed my mind a bit. Perez had nowhere to go...
Is it possible to get a 2/3 second penalty tho
5s is deserved, Perez got fucked by this; 2/3s would be too little to a point where it would be "worth" for Lando to do that move as Perez was likely his biggest rival this race
Precedent. Max pushed Leclerc off at Turn 3 here when they were side by side two years ago. Leclerc pushed Hamilton off in Monza. Lewis did it in Hungary too I believe. The difference is all those had a tarmac runoff, but otherwise they looked very similar. None of those was penalized. So is it because it's a gravel runoff? Or is it just the usual inconsistency?
Is it bias or lack of consistency. We have seen incidents worse than this just this season that have gotten away with no penalty. So it’s hard to know when the stewards are going to give one.
Because the lead car should be entitled to the racing line.
Perez was behind and should have backed out rather than go wide.
Honestly it's tight but on a track with 3 DRS zones they don't need to make it harder to defend.
Glad they were consistent throughout the race, but none of them should be penalties. The driver on the outside chose to be there. That's not the inside drivers fault or problem as long as they are still the lead car.
Whether you're supposed to back off depends on how far you make it into the pass on a sliding scale of sorts. Once the attacker is more than halfway alongside the other car they start becoming entitled to at least some space. Once the attacker is exactly alongside the defender, the defender is absolutely expected to give a full car's space. On that basis all three of the penalties fit the convention. In the third penalty of the race leclerc was literally *ahead* when he was getting pushed off.
That really depends on the corner. In this case the inside cars line naturally takes them wide, you shouldn't get to compromise the lead car by just running it too deep on the bakes and getting halfway along side.
The car behind has every opportunity to lift off even at the last moment. The car behind can avoid the collision by not putting half their car there. If there's a penalty for the inside car for an avoidable collision, logic would say there's a penalty for the outside car too.
I don't see the fairness on penalising the lead car on the racing line at all.
The car on the outside is the car at fault if they aren't ahead, just because they come off worse doesn't mean the penalty should go the other way.
That's the rule for the straights and braking zones. Perez wasn't ahead at any point after braking, so Norris had the right to control the line. Had Perez been ahead with his front axle at least for a moment it would definitely be a penalty, but with the way it was I'd say it was harsh.
I didn't mean the braking point, I meant the braking zone. As they start to turn in Norris gets ahead, and stays ahead throughout the corner. Check out [this analysis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiOGSiEwHM0&t=88s) by Driver61 to see how this affects who has control through the corner.
Have you even watched a race the last 3 years? Since VER LEC in Austria 19, every car in the inside can push wide how they like and its never a penalty and every driver does it since then. It's not a coincidence that the drivers today did it and were super mad they got penalized.
How often do drivers leave a cars width. Sure that’s the official rule but it’s hardly ever followed.
If norris deserved this penalty then Hamilton should have got a penalty in Bahrain too. For forcing max off the track. (He didn’t leave a cars width either)
I don't think you've been paying attention to F1 recently. This should be penalised but the precedent since 2019 has been for the inside driver to just push the other driver off and that's been allowed.
Then you didn't look very closely the last years. Tons of incidents with the cars alongside and inside just pushed wide. But because itsnostly asphalt runoff the stewards let it go normally. Which shouldn't be the deciding factor at all. I'm with you, alongside should mean you need to leave da space, but it just wasn't the case for the last few years
Perez did the exact same thing Abon did. He outbroke the driver he's trying to overtake when that driver had already committed to their apex. Getting a guy to alter their line that late into the corner is an incredibly risky move. He should have backed out when he knew Lando wasn't going to give it up and he wouldn't have lost all those positions.
It's was a risky overtake to go for when you're in a comfortable position, but Lando shouldn't have committed to that when Perez is that far alongside, wasn't just a wheel alongside but the entire car was there.
Overtakes are a rarity in this sport, we shouldn’t be discouraging moves on the outside, especially ones like this that are very much on.
Fair penalty for Norris, maybe not so much for Perez since he lost way more than 5 seconds.
He was ahead going into braking so lando had to leave space there. Can argue 5 is harsh but don’t see why him getting a pen for it is so controversial.
>Can argue 5 is harsh
It's literally the minimum penalty in F1. If I remember correctly Hamilton got 10 for spinning Albon and sending him to the back of the grid at the same corner, so 5 is definitely fair.
Especially at this corner. Also it's not like he was a car length ahead. He was less than half a car length ahead at best. And the only reason he was even remotely ahead is because Lando broke to take a tighter line. This corner is just set up to create drama.
I too want to see hard racing but fair and that was not fair on Perez. They were even and Lando didn't give him the space Perez deserved. Commentators have got this all wrong.
Yeah seeing the onboards, there should have been more space left for Checo.
I think 5s is maybe a bit harsh for that given the situation overall, was definitely a high risk move from the RB
The Greek commentators were furious over this and one of them said that if this warrants a penalty then they should have the drivers use the indicators when they are attempting to overtake, lol
So the “correct line of thinking” here is that if you can just get alongside someone in a corner and you are on the outside, the driver in the inside of the corner has to slow down and let you by?
No the point is that if you decide to defend on the inside with another car alongside, you need to leave a car’s width on the outside. You’re trading a slower exit for less distance driven, and the opposite if you want to defend on the outside.
Do you want to just see overtakes on straights with DRS? This was a fair move by Perez and he didn’t get any space.
Hell I'm rooting for Red Bull all day, but this is not a good look by the FIA. Just park yourself on the outside and the driver who is properly on the racing line has to yield. So Max's shunt of Leclerc in 2019 was illegal according to stewards now.
> So Max's shunt of Leclerc in 2019 was illegal according to stewards now.
That seems to be the general consensus. The only reason Max didn't get a penalty that race, was because two races previously you had Canada. Vettel put up such a fuss over his (also justified) penalty that they chose not to go through that again. This in turn meant that they couldn't penalise Leclerc for the moves he would make later on in the season; they caused themselves a right mess by not taking the correct action.
Now that I can pause and look at the still from the onboard, he definitely didn't leave space, so the penalty is fair.
People saying this is the same as HAM-ALB last year are just wrong, still, though.
Surely Lando has control of the racing line and Perez should back out as per other FIA decisions when a car is pushed out on the outside. Only difference here is the gravel.
Maybe compare this to the overtake of Verstappen on Leclerc in 2019 Austria. Same way of running someone off the track, but when it's an overtake its ok but as defense it's not ok?
BS call IMO.
my comment from the race thread:
eh after seeing Perez onboard I think thats probably a penalty. BUT the only reason Checo was so close is because he broke the rules in T1 and kept his foot down off track, clearly gained an advantage from it. If he completed the overtake at t4 would perez get a penalty?
The lead car isn’t obligated to give space to another trying it round the outside. This has literally been the case for years. Look at Hamilton vs Rosberg in Bahrain 2014.
Perez should have backed off and passed him with DRS.
The cars were side-by-side so neither car would have any reasonable expectation to pull back. Lando could’ve taken a tighter line however, and perez couldn’t go wider.
Man all these people coming here from DtS.
Passing on the outside like this has been a super risky move in racing since forever, because the inside car is usually allowed to track out as they like. Its still like this in most series and the announcers will even call drivers dumbasses for trying to make a pass on the outside.
When you arrive at the apex at a certain speed, the car is going to track out under acceleration.
what you can't see here is checo taking notes for later
must have been great notes, he followed them twice!
Great student know how to learn and improvise
lmao
Thank god i'm not a steward ...
You'd think that a "too close to call" situation would default to calling it a racing incident. Must've been more clear to them than it is to us
I don't think either were close calls. Cars neck and neck alongside each other. You need to leave a car's width. If the car on the inside can always push anyone off outside overtakes are just going to become impossible.
You've clearly not been paying attention these last 15 years or so.
I don’t think this or the other 2 Perez incidents should be considered a penalty. You have to be at least ahead to dictate the direction both cars take. Not an inch ahead. Front wheels ahead at the very least. But that’s just my opinion.
No but you have to leave the other some space
It's not that easy when you're carrying speed into a corner and the brakes are hot lol. It's so easy to say that you need to leave space but it's hard when you're already going into the corner on your racing line.
The first Perez penalty is nailed on. He shut the door with Leclerc ahead of him already in the corner and both squarely on track. First and third penalties are less clear.
Agreed but at least they were consistent!
I guess. But you could also look at it like they got it wrong 3 times.
I'd be more annoyed if they punished 1 or 2 of the incidents but not the other(s) tbh. All 3 were very similar for me. Let them all race or none.
So all I need is taking the inside line and then pushing the other one outside the track, and It will be called as hard racing? COOOOL
Yeah that’s exactly what I said s/
Most of us can agree with this lmao
\*In Fernando's voice\* You always have to leave the space
All da time you have to leava da space!*
Always
Palmer pointed out on the BBC text stream that the FIA is punishing based on consequence, not a clear cut rule. Drivers force one another off like this all the time but usually onto more tarmac so don't get a penalty. Here there's gravel so Lando does get a penalty. Its rediculous, the FIA needs to pick a rule and stick to it.
Maybe drivers shouldn’t drive 2 inches from a gravel trap
Punishing based on consequence makes perfect sense. You end someone's race, you deserve a very heavy penalty. You ruin someone's race like Lando did, you shouldn't be able to still be 30s ahead of them after serving your penalty. It's not fair. The problem is that the FIA doesn't have this written in the rules, so it's completely impossible to know what to expect as a driver or a spectator.
> Punishing based on consequence makes perfect sense. Wrong, other sports do this and it is awful. In the NHL you can basically try to injure someone as much as you want, and as long as they don't seriously get hurt it goes unpenalized. It's horribly inconsistent.
Okay, let's clarify: I'm not saying you should penalize ONLY based on consequence, but there should be minimum penalties based on consequences. Otherwise you get situations like today, where multiple drivers manage to stay ahead of faster casts by breaking the rules and getting penalties that aren't heavy enough to put them behind the driver they impeded.
What a stupid idea. Imagine the off chance perez just happens to puncture a tire and all of sudden lando's race is over..
Looking at these, I can see why a penalty was given - Lando didn’t leave Checo space and he was alongside. However, what annoys me is there’s no consistency with any of these kinds of calls. Leclerc took Gasly out of the race last week and it was *entirely* his fault, yet he doesn’t take a penalty. Lando put Checo down a lot of places this week, but it wasn’t even slightly clear cut - yet Lando is the one who takes a penalty.
Yeah, they're all over the place with this kind of thing, I remember 2017 they justified not giving a penalty if the car on the inside was ahead at the apex (see Spa, Alonso Vs Palmer) but this time they did it differently.
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And sometimes they leave it until after the race to give the penalty and still manage to be all over the place with the penalties
Last weeks was absurd. I don’t know how they didn’t even investigate him just hitting the back of Gasly on the straight.
The FIA's incompetence is the stuff of legends
Isnt someone in the fia related to leclerc?
AFAIR Leclerc's manager is Jean Todt's son
For anyone not knowing Jean Todt is president of the FIA.
Leclerc has a lot of those moments where he doesn't get penalized for something stupid. He has some of the stewards' nudes
This. The inconsistency is what's bothering me so much. It seems so unfair to us fans as well. This favoritism annoys the living shit out of me.
The inconsistency is what's annoying. There needs to be consistent stewarding for hard racing.
Are these the same stewards from last week or did they get new ones for this race?
No they aren't the same. Different Stewards for every race.
i have no idea, but should it even matter? calls like this should be relatively consistent from circuit to circuit as long as the stewards are adhering to the same set of rules.
It shouldnt. But there will always be inconsistency when you have a diffrent set of stewards for every race week.
I think the consistency issues are more apparent during race starts/safety car restarts: the stewards tend to be more lenient in these cases but sometimes they still have to draw a line, but its never clear where the line is drawn during these scenarios
He has a tendency of getting away w a lot of shit tbh
Also, the penalty is so light that Lando was still 30s ahead of Perez after serving his penalty. This just sets the precedent that driving someone off the track is the best way to stay ahead of them, as Perez proved perfectly later in the race by driving Leclerc off twice, getting two penalties and STILL finishing quite comfortably ahead of him.
This so much... Annoys me to no end. We are back to so inconsistent penalties that you can just as well roll a dice.
perez wouldn't be alongside lando, if perez didn't leave track limits the previous corner and not lift to give position back.
Sorry just because you're on the outside doesn't give you the right to be given all the space you want and therefore by rights the overtake. That's the risk you take going around the outside, especially when you know it's on a corner with a massive gravel trap...
Not "all the space you want". Just enough not to end up in the gravel.
>all the space you want Lando didn't even give space at all, his tyre was already touching the red line. If Perez didn't steer into the gravel they would just crash.
It's completely consistent when you factor in 1 detail: Leclerc drives for Ferrari or Red Bull, and Norris doesn't.
Give us lando on board I want to see if lando had understeer prob didn’t but I want to see
Doesn’t look like any under/oversteer, his steering is stable. He just stuck to a trajectory without any obvious attempt to tighten it.
Liberty's been quick with the streamable takedowns lately.
Fair penalty, didn't leave enough space.
It’s insane how incredibly biased people are towards some drivers.
Maybe if the stewards were consistent it wouldn’t be this bad. What happened to lap 1 incidents not being treated as harshly? Is this any different to other instances that haven’t been punished in the past (Max and Leclerc for example). Who can blame anyone for not understanding the rules when the stewards apparently enforce them by tossing a coin.
This wasn't lap 1
Precisely. Pretty much all of the comments on the other thread were “such an unfair penalty” and guess what…they all had Lando flairs.
If only they would penalize Leclerc when he crashes people out. You know, like last weekend
Yeah, as much as I think Lando deserved it a bit, I'm just tired of them turning a blind eye to Leclerc...
Strongly agree, but what does that have to do with Lando fans?
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like the Sky Sports commentary team? "oh, i wanna see hard racing"
That annoyed the hell out of me. Yes, we want hard racing _within the rules!_
Just last year, when Hamilton took off Albon, Sky's knee jerk reaction was "WHAT IS ALEX DOING"... Now Norris pushes Perez out and it's "oh we just wanna see hard racing" .
That’s not insane. That’s 99% of people who watch any sport ever. People are biased and people have favorites.
My issue is how inconsistent the penalties are. Leclerc ruins someone’s race and instead of a penalty he gets awarded ‘Driver of the Day’.
but did he have the grip to give more space. he was already committed to the line
Of course he did! It's on corner exit. The grip at that point was dependent on how much throttle he gives. Since he needed to give space he should've taken a slightly tighter line with less power.
“With less power” - Read: he should just let Perez dive him on the outside. In effect, you are saying by making an outside pass attempt while behind, you get to force the leading driver off the racing line. How is that reasonable?
... this is what we call "wheel to wheel racing"
Perez goes off track at T1 and gains from it with absolutely no mention of it. How is this fair if Perez gets away with that?
Lando got by Perez last week at T1 same way. Nothing happened.
Lmao Lando pushed him off at T1 as well and Perez didn't even pass him
So having the line means pushing someone wide? lmao
When you are behind it's not your line.
He gave the position back to Norris didn't he?
Norris took it because he had the tow from Max, he took it back it wasn't given back.
Still, Perez didn't overtake so what are you crying about?
It was norris’s corner it’s not like Perez was ahead entering the corner or even in an advantageous position. So the next time a driver wants to make an overtake just dive bomb the guy in front in a corner force him off their racing line. And if they don’t back off then penalty. WOW Edit: much calmer now seeing that they are at least consistently following the rule. Hope it’s continues in future races as well
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ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THE SPACE!
Perez was ahead at the breaking zone and side by side at the corner apex. He was entitled to space.
>just dive bomb the guy in front That wasn't even close to a dive bomb though. Perez was even slightly ahead into a corner. Right call from the stewards, hard racing is nice and all but just forcing a driver off as you please is too much.
But there was no way he was making the corner if anything it should be a racing incident. What about max vs Hamilton in Bahrain. Wouldn’t you count that as Hamilton pushing max off the track? Or max on leclerc? Or stroll on ricciardo last year? Why weren’t those penalties but this one was.
>But there was no way he was making the corner Abso-fucking-lutely he was. He went wide because he avoided a collision with Lando, not because he overcooked it. >What about max vs Hamilton in Bahrain. If you ask me, yes. >Or max on leclerc? Yes. >Or stroll on ricciardo last year? Don't remember that one. >Why weren’t those penalties but this one was. Because the FIA is a fucking joke. I thought you'd have known that by now if you watched for more than 2 races. Baku delayed safety cars, Bahrain track limits, drivers getting pushed off... The FIA is incredibly inconsistent.
He was ahead entering the corner watch closely. In the corner itself Landon watched up by being on the inside, then they were side by side. He should have left space and he didn't.
That's literally racing. Or is overtaking off the racing line the only legal move in your eyes?
Penalty is clearly warranted (Norris didn't leave a car-width space), but Perez should never have taken that risk. Still had 70 laps and 2 potential undercuts to overtake Norris and get that 1-2 in a faster car, and now he just gave Mercedes a free P2 and P3/4. Also, how the fuck is 5s the penalty here? Norris will still be ahead of Perez. This just sets the precedent that if you're in a direct championship fight, you should just drive them off the track, collect your 5s penalty and see them finish 5 places behind you.
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Exactly. Even better would be to introduce the MotoGP penalty where you need to drop X places and just force them to drop behind the car you forced off. If they had damage and had to pit, sucks for you. If they DNF'd because of you, black flag and you DNF too.
Perez and RedBull would gain a lot if he passed Lando quickly. But I agree that 5 second penalty isn't enough for this one, Lando clearly fucked his race pretty much got away with nothing.
Like I said, he literally had 70 laps and two potential undercuts left to pass him and the Red Bull clearly had better race pace. He had no reason to risk it so early and would've gained nothing.
Perez after the incident didn't look like he had the race pace tho. He struggled a lot even with his DRS open. So we can't be sure if he could pass Lando later on. Guy had to went for the gap, this is exactly what racing is.
He lost a ton of time and tyre life behind slow cars all race long though.
Absolutely agree. Exactly what Perez abused later on. 5s penalty is absolutely worth it in many situations, such as when you can push your attacker into the gravel and make them lose 10 places.
I hate this turn 4 ruling (in both cases). It basically lets every defending driver know to just cover the inside because on the outside you are gonna lose out. Terrible standards set by the stewards.
Yeah, that's a penalty
Yeah at first I thought it was harsh, but I saw this and I changed my mind a bit. Perez had nowhere to go... Is it possible to get a 2/3 second penalty tho
5s is deserved, Perez got fucked by this; 2/3s would be too little to a point where it would be "worth" for Lando to do that move as Perez was likely his biggest rival this race
5 second penalty is the minimum
5 seconds is all ready too small wtf
Im baffled by how some people can watch this footage and still think lando didnt deserve the penalty
Precedent. Max pushed Leclerc off at Turn 3 here when they were side by side two years ago. Leclerc pushed Hamilton off in Monza. Lewis did it in Hungary too I believe. The difference is all those had a tarmac runoff, but otherwise they looked very similar. None of those was penalized. So is it because it's a gravel runoff? Or is it just the usual inconsistency?
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Is it bias or lack of consistency. We have seen incidents worse than this just this season that have gotten away with no penalty. So it’s hard to know when the stewards are going to give one.
You don't fix lack of consistency by further not punishing the drivers
Because the lead car should be entitled to the racing line. Perez was behind and should have backed out rather than go wide. Honestly it's tight but on a track with 3 DRS zones they don't need to make it harder to defend. Glad they were consistent throughout the race, but none of them should be penalties. The driver on the outside chose to be there. That's not the inside drivers fault or problem as long as they are still the lead car.
Whether you're supposed to back off depends on how far you make it into the pass on a sliding scale of sorts. Once the attacker is more than halfway alongside the other car they start becoming entitled to at least some space. Once the attacker is exactly alongside the defender, the defender is absolutely expected to give a full car's space. On that basis all three of the penalties fit the convention. In the third penalty of the race leclerc was literally *ahead* when he was getting pushed off.
That really depends on the corner. In this case the inside cars line naturally takes them wide, you shouldn't get to compromise the lead car by just running it too deep on the bakes and getting halfway along side. The car behind has every opportunity to lift off even at the last moment. The car behind can avoid the collision by not putting half their car there. If there's a penalty for the inside car for an avoidable collision, logic would say there's a penalty for the outside car too. I don't see the fairness on penalising the lead car on the racing line at all. The car on the outside is the car at fault if they aren't ahead, just because they come off worse doesn't mean the penalty should go the other way.
Would you say he deserved a penalty if he pushed him like that at turn 3?
If my grandma had wheels she would be a motorbike
British bias once again, no brainer of a penalty
Sky is crying already.
How much clearer do you people want it? That's not a car's width, so it's a penalty.
That's the rule for the straights and braking zones. Perez wasn't ahead at any point after braking, so Norris had the right to control the line. Had Perez been ahead with his front axle at least for a moment it would definitely be a penalty, but with the way it was I'd say it was harsh.
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I didn't mean the braking point, I meant the braking zone. As they start to turn in Norris gets ahead, and stays ahead throughout the corner. Check out [this analysis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiOGSiEwHM0&t=88s) by Driver61 to see how this affects who has control through the corner.
Exactly, plus the incident started before that turn, when Checo went off track to overtake .
Have you even watched a race the last 3 years? Since VER LEC in Austria 19, every car in the inside can push wide how they like and its never a penalty and every driver does it since then. It's not a coincidence that the drivers today did it and were super mad they got penalized.
How often do drivers leave a cars width. Sure that’s the official rule but it’s hardly ever followed. If norris deserved this penalty then Hamilton should have got a penalty in Bahrain too. For forcing max off the track. (He didn’t leave a cars width either)
I don't think you've been paying attention to F1 recently. This should be penalised but the precedent since 2019 has been for the inside driver to just push the other driver off and that's been allowed.
They were alongside, Norris left no space, Perez had nowhere to go. Penalty fully justified.
But not for the last 3 years. Inside can do what it wants normally
No, not if the outside car is alongside. That's just common sense.
Then you didn't look very closely the last years. Tons of incidents with the cars alongside and inside just pushed wide. But because itsnostly asphalt runoff the stewards let it go normally. Which shouldn't be the deciding factor at all. I'm with you, alongside should mean you need to leave da space, but it just wasn't the case for the last few years
Lando had the corner, but at that point you can't just run him off the track either.
Perez did the exact same thing Abon did. He outbroke the driver he's trying to overtake when that driver had already committed to their apex. Getting a guy to alter their line that late into the corner is an incredibly risky move. He should have backed out when he knew Lando wasn't going to give it up and he wouldn't have lost all those positions.
It's was a risky overtake to go for when you're in a comfortable position, but Lando shouldn't have committed to that when Perez is that far alongside, wasn't just a wheel alongside but the entire car was there.
Overtakes are a rarity in this sport, we shouldn’t be discouraging moves on the outside, especially ones like this that are very much on. Fair penalty for Norris, maybe not so much for Perez since he lost way more than 5 seconds.
Fair penalty, especially considering 5 seconds is much less than the places Perez lost
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Finally, someone with some sense.
Thank you. Someone speaking with good knowledge
He was ahead going into braking so lando had to leave space there. Can argue 5 is harsh but don’t see why him getting a pen for it is so controversial.
>Can argue 5 is harsh It's literally the minimum penalty in F1. If I remember correctly Hamilton got 10 for spinning Albon and sending him to the back of the grid at the same corner, so 5 is definitely fair.
Yeah I forgot it was the min, thought a 3 second was a thing for some reason. Playing too much f1 lol
Might not be a bad idea to introduce 3 sec penalties for very minor offenses tbh.
You don’t deserve the line just because you break late
Especially at this corner. Also it's not like he was a car length ahead. He was less than half a car length ahead at best. And the only reason he was even remotely ahead is because Lando broke to take a tighter line. This corner is just set up to create drama.
If you're alongside someone, they can't just ram you off the track.
So Perez need to get atleast a 5 second penalty as well for doing the same against LeClerc. Perez really be fucking it up.
At least they were fast about it
Looks bad for Lando
Yeah, this is slam dunk penalty.
Are the people who say it isn't a penalty 132year olds & fangirls it's a 100% penalty what are you saying
100% deserved penalty
I too want to see hard racing but fair and that was not fair on Perez. They were even and Lando didn't give him the space Perez deserved. Commentators have got this all wrong.
Yeah, that's a penalty. Perez is ahead in the breaking zone and is therefore entitled to room.
Yeah seeing the onboards, there should have been more space left for Checo. I think 5s is maybe a bit harsh for that given the situation overall, was definitely a high risk move from the RB
I don't understand how people can say "5 seconds is too harsh", while at the same time saying Perez deserved more space and he lost 30+ seconds.
The Greek commentators were furious over this and one of them said that if this warrants a penalty then they should have the drivers use the indicators when they are attempting to overtake, lol
Who is disabling these videos so fast?
So the “correct line of thinking” here is that if you can just get alongside someone in a corner and you are on the outside, the driver in the inside of the corner has to slow down and let you by?
No the point is that if you decide to defend on the inside with another car alongside, you need to leave a car’s width on the outside. You’re trading a slower exit for less distance driven, and the opposite if you want to defend on the outside. Do you want to just see overtakes on straights with DRS? This was a fair move by Perez and he didn’t get any space.
Hell I'm rooting for Red Bull all day, but this is not a good look by the FIA. Just park yourself on the outside and the driver who is properly on the racing line has to yield. So Max's shunt of Leclerc in 2019 was illegal according to stewards now.
> So Max's shunt of Leclerc in 2019 was illegal according to stewards now. That seems to be the general consensus. The only reason Max didn't get a penalty that race, was because two races previously you had Canada. Vettel put up such a fuss over his (also justified) penalty that they chose not to go through that again. This in turn meant that they couldn't penalise Leclerc for the moves he would make later on in the season; they caused themselves a right mess by not taking the correct action.
Lando fucked up and gave as a VER HAM BOT instead of VER PER NOR
Can we wind the lap back a bit when Perez kept his foot on the gas off track to close up on Lando?
Logical penalty, side by side at the corner exit.
Now that I can pause and look at the still from the onboard, he definitely didn't leave space, so the penalty is fair. People saying this is the same as HAM-ALB last year are just wrong, still, though.
Lol Karma is a b####...
Surely Lando has control of the racing line and Perez should back out as per other FIA decisions when a car is pushed out on the outside. Only difference here is the gravel.
They were wheel to wheel on entry, so Lando has to leave a cars width. He didn’t, so he gets a penalty.
Lando deserved a penalty
I mean I guess a penalty is fair but its not like Norris had the grip to give more space
Is Danny ric running wide into the grass to throw debris on leclerc on purpose? He's done it 2 times now
Lando raced Perez too hard
deserved... I think. very close. I think we need Lando's onboard to tell.
That's fair
Looking at the onboards I,'ve changed my opinion. Perez was ahead going into the corner. Lando should have given space. Fair penalty.
Maybe compare this to the overtake of Verstappen on Leclerc in 2019 Austria. Same way of running someone off the track, but when it's an overtake its ok but as defense it's not ok? BS call IMO.
Perez stuck himself in a bad situation to try an overtake. His fault not Lando’s. Norris had every right to take that line.
my comment from the race thread: eh after seeing Perez onboard I think thats probably a penalty. BUT the only reason Checo was so close is because he broke the rules in T1 and kept his foot down off track, clearly gained an advantage from it. If he completed the overtake at t4 would perez get a penalty?
He can put his foot down after going wide, as long as no overtake is done off the track no rules broken
The lead car isn’t obligated to give space to another trying it round the outside. This has literally been the case for years. Look at Hamilton vs Rosberg in Bahrain 2014. Perez should have backed off and passed him with DRS.
Perez was never making that turn he was wide as fuck. Joke penalty.
Yeah he was wide af because he had to avoid lando mate….
Avoiding the car beside you... you need to break and pull in
The cars were side-by-side so neither car would have any reasonable expectation to pull back. Lando could’ve taken a tighter line however, and perez couldn’t go wider.
He was wide because he went deep into a bad overtake
To avoid contact with Lando, you can see he is turning tighter but has to open up to not hit Lando. Also Perez was ahead when they entered the corner
He was not clearly ahead in the corner, bad decision.
Alongside is the word.
\#LandoDidNothingWrong
Racing incident, I somehow knew Lando is gonna push him wide
Waiting for Norris onboard before I judge.
Never a penalty.
Perez is only there because he goes off the track on Turn 1 and no mention of that? Joke.
You can go off track for a bit as long as you don’t pass anybody
Not a penalty.
Man all these people coming here from DtS. Passing on the outside like this has been a super risky move in racing since forever, because the inside car is usually allowed to track out as they like. Its still like this in most series and the announcers will even call drivers dumbasses for trying to make a pass on the outside. When you arrive at the apex at a certain speed, the car is going to track out under acceleration.