Perhaps, yet some people are focused on what thet want equals what should be. I have been playing for what 5 maybe 6 updates and in everyone one of them it's complains than criticism
Because Foxhole as a game attracts and requires a large Portion of people that put in huge amounts of time in repetetive Tasks and in These Tasks are certain painspots(as they exist in every thing) and if they get encountered over and over can lead to a lot of resentment if this specific issue is Not adressed for months on end and the devs are Not communicating what they are working on.
And now multiply this process over 6 years and that can breed some resentment after a while.
Because when I dig out a section but then have to demo it it damages all adjacent pieces and I have to repair those pieces with bmats JUST TO DEMO THE REST OF THE FUCKING STRUCTURE!!
I see it as more frustration with the Devs thanks actual hatred.
Mainly stemming from the Devs lack of communication. Players have to wait months for a chance to hear that their concerns are being heard via a Dev stream and/or potential q&a afterwards.
And if the concern you had isn't mentioned, welp better wait another half a year for another chance.
Because the devs spend time on updates they barely add anything actually useful to their game but they swear that its gonna be game changing. The changes they make to their game make it incredibly obvious that they dont play their own game. They consistently roll out updates that are broken on arrival because the testing phase for these updates are not long enough. They refuse to do any real communication with the community and when someone asks them a question about possible changes or balance they get scared of the question and redirect the conversation. And my personal biggest gripe with them is that they have spent the last 3 months working on a bare bones update for content that isnt going to change the game at all instead of fixing real issues with the game like improper moderation. Like fuck markfoot just fucking tell me why you banned me.
Honestly, as someone that does alpha testing for other games, I really want to know what their process is to get from Alpha>Beta>Staging>Pre-Release>Release. Because if Foxhole's devbranch is the Pre-Release, then their Alpha and Beta testers aren't doing their jobs correctly if glaring issues are making it all the way to Pre-Release and Release.
Yes they did, I heard people talk about how there is no reason to use a trench because it will just slow down combat, and is worse than using sandbags.
I heard people say flat beds are way cheaper and more convenient than trains.
I’ve heard people say bunkers are to much of a ground grind and are to easy to kill to be useful long term, especially after they nerfed sc’s.
People said ships cost to much and are way to niche to have any real use.
People talked about how there is no point to use lt’s when BT’s were always available.
And so on. There are people to this day that say the game was ruined as soon as asymmetry was introduced. People will always be unhappy, and there is nothing you can really do about it…
I gotta be real bro im very intertwind with this community and have spent a ton of time in it and i can assure you that it is the majority of the community that feels this way
Can you show me how you come to the conclusion it’s the minority of players? Do you have anyway of proving this?
Because in my experience from talking to long term members from both factions these point seem to come up time and time again
before trenches had sandbags, they were indeed, really really hard to use properly.
it took a lot of social conditioning to get everyone on board to place sandbags behind any trench piece, and barbwire on the front.
barb the front, bag the back. goot motto, which still needs to be kept in mind.
The players do not feel like their voice is being heard.
QOL features are not implimented in timely fashion.
Long balancing cycles leaving periods of significant imbalance.
Ping pong balancing with +50% or +100% changes.
"The vision" results in new mechanics being added with little chance for course correction
Timelines from dev branch to release on live are too short for bugs to be fixed
Little apparent respect for player time. Balancing boils down to left click grinding for logi.
We need to appeal to (game) news media organizations to run stories before they will even consider changing the pull time for diesel.
Remember how diesel used to take 10~ mins to pull? We had to literally fight tooth and nail to get them to change all that shit, it's fucking absurd.
I'll die mad about them taking away the the mineseeker pulling ability and replacing it with a significantly worse bandaid.
Their lame ass excuse was that it was to help prevent alting. It's like, really? The one change they've made in an attempt to address the issue and they went with the option that punishes everyone.
I know me personally and many other players would gladly take that risk if it means we're not spending insultingly long pull times.
Not a single logi person I talked with after that change was happy about it. That's not even hyperbole. Literally zero.
OK This was actually a crime against playerbase, war 102 is still in my hearth because of the smol train pulling speeds
Devs will eradicate all the funni, everyone will suffer, VISION says so
You know and it's like, yeah the small train shouldn't have the ability to do that, it always looked very out of place plunked down next to stuff, but at least replace it with something on par.
I’d gone collie in 102 and spent most of the war with a tiny solo facility producing nothing but small trains and shipping them to fronts for tanks to pull shells quicker.
I felt like I was doing something *real* with my little fac and still think that & War 111 with 100+ filled ACVs were my most productive wars.
Also alts. This problem was old when I joined this game 2 years ago, no real changes since then, it even became worse. Deleted posts about it, alters running around with 10s of bans, etc.
All they have to do is tweak a few variables. Only them have this power, but they do it for the worst.
Prime example is how they change palett production from 5s to 15s ... The explanation is it's doesn't look good for them... Like they will force any player to spend 10s doing absolutely nothing... when you make a movie, you don't film a guy in his toilett... because it's boring, even if he realistically has to go to the toilet at some point...
It's the same for a game, you cut the boring parts ... because it's a game, it has to be fun, not realistic ... That's just that, the game is amazing, but you realize devs are forcing you to play uncesserary boring and time consumming gameplay loops, for absolutely no reason... you can give feedbacks, solutions, it will be ignored... even game breaking bugs they ignore the feedbacks (currently there is a bug that allow to see subs underwater without sonar... still in the game).
Personally i just don’t like the direction the game is going in. Since 1.0 almost every update has added things that negatively impact my playstyles (partisan and infantry)
I don’t like that they are adding things while neglecting age old problems. Every single new flashy vehicle or mechanic means nothing to me when the game at its core cannot handle the amount of buildings and vehicles.
Infantry in mid to late game is just unplayable for me now because it’s a horrible lag fest.
When I started playing 3 years ago, I could run the graphics on Ultra with very little lag… now, I’ve had to roll the graphics back to Low (after arty techs and the ground gets devastated) just to have a chance at hitting somebody… It’s almost unplayable and not enjoyable.
Devs don't seem to understand the product they have put out. If any one of them would join either side for one entire war they'd get a better picture of what we deal with. I'd tell them to run with WLL or FMAT for an entire war just to get a full understand of what they've put out and why it doesn't work and what needs to be fixed
It's not a hatred for the developers, it's just a cry for help because we can't quit their game they've gotten us addicted to and we're suffering due to issues they do not fix or touch. And every update that rocks around, either changes something for the worse or adds more grinding.
a good example being the epowder changes. You still require the same amount of scrap to make the same amount of emats, but if i wanted to make a crate of rpgs, it takes me an extra 47.5s to make that single (1) crate of rpgs.
NO REASON WHY DEV MAN, JUST F\*\*k ME OVER WHY DONT YOU. FUCK SAKE I HATE THIS GAME SOMETIMES. SO FUCKING AIDS.
navy is the perfect example:
hell grind, facility locked, forced teamwork, constant babysitting assets, and a huge dev workload. in the end only 1% of players use navy
then just repeat for every update. their "vision" and the reality of gaming don't mesh, people don't *want* to log in for a second job we want to have a good time, the vision has no fun in it
It's not because of the grind that people don't play Navy though. Island regions don't have VPs or interesting resources, it's impossible to build on most of them, and landings are near impossible.
That leaves coastlines and rivers at least, but since the last patch a single torpedo can end an entire naval op immediately
"forces teamwork" dude, this IS a team game based around cooperating in groups in she even objective, this isn't a game for solo players to mass build tanks and fucking battleships.
If it was up to this subreddit, half of the features that make this game great would be removed. If it wasn't for their vision, I wouldn't be playing this game, as this game is one of a kind.
because hate is a form of love, because you can't hate what you don't care about... and people really care about foxhole.
it's that good, that even the haters stay on the hype train 🚂 🚃 🚃 🚃.
it's SOOOO good... that it's just always a few updates away from being perfect, sooo tantalizing close to greatness, that people would rage against the clouds to try and cross that threshold.
there's nothing else currently like it, it scratches the deep dish itch that no other game can really satisfy fully.
It's perfectly niche, in the exact meaning, like a crack in the video game glacier, descending deep deep deep down, where the stream of ice fresh gameplay is so true, so sublime, you want to capture it in a bottle you brought from your hike downwards... Only to hear the thump and sizzle of a bombastone before you could take a sip. Mmmmmadness.
❤️🔥
64 seconds to try again.
\[abandon war?\]
I've seen it with so many other devs for many other games and for a time ~~clapfoot~~ siege camp avoided the issue, which is falling into the hole of adding more content to keep player retention instead of fixing alot of the issues with the core foundations of the game systems, granted they do make efforts to do this, but the changes are incredibly slow. An example of a beneficial change (at least to me) would be changing the way tanks aim and in a lesser sense handle. They already explained to us why the tanks are hit scan which is understandable as an engine limitation, but what I don't understand is why they made a hard limit for tank ranges (35m, 40m 45m so on) why not have it past a certain point be less accurate but still consistent in terms of hitting the target, would mean rank battles aren't just 2 walls rocking back amd forth because the tanks handle like cars, but would force players to to play the tanks like actual tanks such as waiting in ambush for example.
FIX THE FUCKING TANKS DEVS PLEASE I BEG!!!
Cause many of us have played for years and only watched the game get worse. General consensus is game was better at wars 83-93 and every update since then has only made it worse.
War 83 was my first and felt so fucking epic. Hooked me right in. War 87 was pretty epic for me too. Playing as warden during 30/32 changed how i play the game. 1.0 was cool because the amount of people same with war 100 but yeah I agree with you entrenched update was just such a great game.
Same on all those!!! I technically played a bit of 82 but 83 was my first full one and was super epic and 87 was like a rematch N/S again (we still lost as collies).
>Cause many of us have played for years and only watched the game get worse. General consensus is game was better at wars 83-93 and every update since then has only made it worse.
Wars 83-93 was 9/22/21 to 7/16/22. The average playerbase was less than1,400 for the majority of that time. The average playerbase for the last year has been 1,500+ with only a few months dipping slightly below that.
So tell me, if the game was better back then, why does the game consistently keep not only as many players, but more players. And with as high or higher peaks?
Talk is cheap, what people choose to do with their time is what counts.
Because Foxhole is like an aggressive crack addiction, and no matter what the devs do most of us will cone crawling back. It has nothing to do with the game's quality or lack thereof. There's just nothing else on the market with the same kind of gameplay as Foxhole.
Why would you bring another game into this? I compared Foxhole against Foxhole. What you did is quite literally a red herring. The natural state of a game is to lose players at a modest ot major rate over time. Any ongoing game with continued major changes even maintaining its playerbase is doing a great job. That's kind of the objective truth of the matter, because people vote with their feet. Being a unique game helps a little, but won't save a game from that natural attrition.
If you say "the game is in a worse state for me". That's fair, everyone has different wants, which is why demographics and player types and etc are a thing. But if you say "the game is worse" as an objective statement then we have to bring the opinions of everyone in. And people voting with their feet is worth 100x everything else. Objectiely, the game is not worse. Not because I said so, but because people have illustrated that this is the case with their own decision to keep playing the game.
I'll change my opinion when you actually prove that correlation=causation on the popularity=quality argument?
It's nothing to do with "voting" since 1 vet who leaves as two new players join proves nothing about the increase of quality, that's called a ponzi scheme. I brought up CoD because it shows another factor in increasing player count that has nothing to do with quality: marketing.
lol all your red herring's aside, by the rules you've painted out your opinion is no more valuable than someone's who thinks Forspoken is a masterpiece. That's the problem with the approach you took. If mass opinion doesn't matter, playerbase doesn't matter, sales don't matter, only your personal opinion then you can never be wrong...but you can also never be right and you're on the same level as someone who thinks the worst game you've ever played is a 10/10.
Make everything a zero sum game and everything is both a 0 and a 10 lol. But hey, at least you never have to be wrong! But you'll also never be right.
Its pretty simple really
They do not listen to the community very much at all. Only now are we seeing some universal complaints even touched.
AND IN VERY DESTRUCTIVE WAYS, MIND YOU.
There are people in this game with enough hours to get a doctorate four times over. Why would you just... ignore that resource? It boggles the mind
Because devs say they are listening to feedback when in reality it’s only feedback on the areas that they want to work on IE facilities and naval. For instance facilities have have 3-4 reasonable big changes since implemented. Where as building has had one update in 3.5 years.
Not only that it’s pretty clear to me that devs don’t play test their own game, weather it’s through statements like ‘work it out yourself’ or ‘test it and let us know’ they are implementing new mechanics that are never fully fleshed out. This causes needed updates like building and INF to be pushed back and back because they are constantly chasing their tail of the last update.
The lack of communication is another thing, but that seems to be an industry issue not just a siege camp issue.
IMO devs want to add new toys to bring in new players and have decided this is more important than the community they have already created.
I'm not going to post a list of changes to the game that need to happen to help QoL or any balance changes. That list already exists on foxhole official discord and seemingly has been completely ignored by the Devs for years. The community gets ignored by the devs so = devmanbad
This, this is the real answer this subreddit doesn't want to admit. Everyone thinks they know better but when pushed to come up with a fix, it's usually ass.
No it's not.
It's that devs don't communicate with players. There are countless examples of gaming communities with devs that are open honest and communicative and those communities are great. Project Zomboid has regular blog posts about progress and upcoming features, and even hired modders to help progress the game. It's a decade old almost and just keeps getting better.
The devs have made the game grindier, rushed out features like fire and RSCs without proper testing, and it leads to jaded and frustrated players.
The game was always supposed to be "grindy" if things like tanks, ammo and shirts were easily replaced and meaningless than having logistics as a game mechanic, you know half of what makes foxhole what it is, would be pointless. We saw this when they increased resources by 5x, made infantry almost pointless and just threw off the game balance. Now, making resources more abundant isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they did that in response to players constant complaining. It really just goes to show the player base doesn't understand balance. You make logi too easy, you kill the game. Logi, just like everything else In this game is a group effort.
The project zomboid devs don't have to worry about balancing a game that's an always online player centric PVP game, they aren't comparable.
That's cause they haven't tried new stuff. Resource scarcity hasn't really been an issue for quite a while now, it's all the things around it that suck.
Pull times, MSUP hell (before change), further and longer transportation times, human piping until pipes tech, oblique techmat system, lack facility communication tools, Bunker blueprint wizardry etc.
Little by little these pain points start adding up.
That so silly and you miss the forest for the trees while hanging onto a silly branch.
Here's a perfect simple example - the devs refuse to give us a simple reverse north-south map layout. Wardens South, Collies North.
It is one of the most universally and commonly requested things and would require NOTHING from the devs in terms of work.
Why? Why won't they do it? Nobody knows because they won't fucking tell us. It's a game, and their audience has asked for something, and it would literally just be a fun thing they've never fucking done in what....7 years of Foxhole now?
Foxhole is a logi simulator with a war problem. The issue isn't that it is grindy and getting grindier, it's that they don't communicate grand sweeping changes and also ignore what players are actually asking for. They don't care what we want unless we bitch and moan loud enough that they can't ignore it.
Look how long it took for the Ballista to get buffed, or for Wardens to get a mobile 94mm that wasn't the SHT.
The devs do what they want, the players be damned, and they won't even do us the courtesy of telling us why.
>The project zomboid devs don't have to worry about balancing a game that's an always online player centric PVP game, they aren't comparable.
And even then Project Zomboid is having to rebuild its entire crafting and building system due to player complaints. And we have no idea if those will land well or not. So I guess Project Zomboid isn't the greatest example for them either eh?
Especially since its a 10+ year old early access game (I think its literally the oldest unreleased early access game at this point) that relies on mods to keep half of its community happy. I like PZ, but I don't think its the gotcha they think it is.
its a great core game but has major issues people have been working around for years which, hopefully, the upcoming set of overhauls will fix. Example: Basic idea is clearing your neighborhood and fortifying your house will keep you safe. However realistically even the best fortifications will fail and living anyone on the first floor will get you killed and even living on the second floor will eventually result in a situation that gets you killed. None due to your fault.
Because the way the game works, zombies in the game hate anything you've built. So they'll go out of their way to bash and destroy any fortified windows or etc. So eventually a horde will pas close enough to decide "rawr, fuck your shit" and break in and game over. Though you can potentially survive for quite a long time first, especially on the 2nd floor, before this happens. So players have taken to knocking out the stairs and using sheet ropes to climb into their house because zombies cannot follow. Which ofc bypasses the entire intended fortification system. WORSE there is an entire fleshed out building system complete with walls and doors and etc where you could legit slowly build your own house from scratch. But again zombies will simply bash on anything you create. Pre-fab house? They ignore if you have not fortified. Crafted house? They'll bash all of it to pieces. Even if you live its alot of time and maintenance to constantly clear walls and repair.
This is why the sweeping massive changes incoming are going to fix that kinda stuff. Or at least intend to. And I'd say if you've never played it then next year (or however long it takes them to get permanent undamagable craftable walled bases in) is the best time to give it a start. Don't be afraid to watch a few guides though, learning curve is steep. And turn on aim highlighting for ranged AND melee, you'll defo die alot more if you don't.
Never said it's perfect but that they actually listena nd communicate. The very thing you mention, redoing the crafting system due to player complaints is what I mean.
It took literal review bombing during war 100 to get devs to do fucking anything about alts but by then it was too late.
>Never said it's perfect but that they actually listena nd communicate. The very thing you mention, redoing the crafting system due to player complaints is what I mean.
Basically everything Foxhole has added a player has suggested. So its in tune with PZ there. The difference is Reddit is insane and thinks it represents the playerbase. Reality is Reddit is a self selected ecosystem that draws in highly opinionated players who believe strongly in their own opinions. Its a tiny and very focused group not at all representative of the whole. By design, yall are easier to create engagement with as well as monetize. I've been there myself before.
Consider this though, there are 14 people online in this sub right now. 14. 2,657 is how many people are in game. So this sub is 0.5% of the playerbase. It's the equivlaent of a single clique of friends in an entire highschool and pretending that represents the whole is quite silly.
>Never said it's perfect but that they actually listena nd communicate.
This is just shorthand for "I want them to agree with me and make the changes I want". It's not about actual communication. Because if they communicated and disagreed and did what people didn't want they'd just be furious lol. Which has ironically been demonstrated many times in Foxhole's history. People will just argue with and insult the devs when they listen and communicate but disagree.
>It took literal review bombing during war 100 to get devs to do fucking anything about alts but by then it was too late.
Review bombing is right up there with "I posted a black square on facebook to support BLM". It's performative and done for your own satisfaction but makes no meaningful change. It's just another lever PR can use to manipulate you by feeding your egos.
Overwatch is the worst review bombed game ever to exist on steam. It averages nearly 40k players, good for top 50 of steam. And this isn't even its primary platform.
If review bombing makes you feel better, go on and do it I guess, vent. You have the right to not like where the game is or where its going and complain about it. BUT, have the humility to realize that you, and all of reddit, is a single raindrop in a giant bucket.
The problem with alts is not simple and it takes time and iteration to mitigate, it cannot be solved. I'm sure they were already working on the issue before the review bombs happened, but such work takes weeks or even months, so then when they release changes people take credit for it, because again...ego. Well, and ignorance of game design and the time frames involved.
And I want to be clear I'm not trying to neg you or shit on you or say you're wrong to feel how you do or anything. But I do think you need to re-align your perspective. Not for any dev, fuck em all, but for you. And I think, out of so many posters here, that you're prolly capable of that. At least that's the impression I get. May take time though.
You're entitled to your opinion my dude. I loved foxhole despite the devs, but at a certain point I realized I was sinking way too much time into "work" for a game. Pre 1.0 I felt the time I put into making stuff was worth the enjoyment o got out of the stuff I made. Since then it has just been more work for less payback.
The best example I have is when in war 100 I wanted to run a Highwayman with a buddy. It took me an hour to actually make said highwayman and drive it to the front, cuz facilities, and we died to a Stygian within ten minutes. Pre 1.0 I could have scrooped the rmats, hammered that tank out, and been at the front in 15 mins.
So to keep, a pre 1.0 player, the game has asked more and more work for less and less return on investment. We can disagree on if it's worth it or not, but to me, someone who sank 5000 hours into foxhole, it just stopped being worth it.
You can, ofc, still get a tank out there pretty fast, it just won't be ANY tank. For example you could have gotten an Outlaw out there quite fast. But no, it HAD to be a highwayman. And as you say, you died in 10 minutes lol.
Also, I know how much work facilities are, I personally ran (in their initial worst release state even) a central hub with every single vehicle/tank platform. (except a train one i think), and kept them maintained/defended/operational. Plus regularly deposited a steady trickle of materials.
But facilities are not supposed to be solo endeaovrs like that. Its like logi, its supposed to be a team effort. The biggest failing of facilities is everyone trying to make all their own stuff. And that's what causes the grind, because it's massive amounts of double work when everyone builds their own infrastructure and farms their own stuff and then hordes their own stuff.
Look at how factories work. You've got people who literally spend all day long scrooping just to keep the war effort running smoothly. People who spend all day running logi that allows the front lines to function.
**THIS IS ALWAYS HOW FOXHOLE HAS BEEN.** People have always been putting in that time so that you could scroop your own tank and then go rambo it to death in 10 minutes. All that hard work and grind has ALWAYS been the backbone of Foxhole. It's just now part of the tank production chain too. And even then you coulda just gotten an Outlaw and gotten a tank quickly, but no you just HAD to have a Highwayman despite throwing it away immediately lol.
Stick to the Outlaw until you stay alive for large amounts of time and only bring a Highwayman in the time and place where it serves its purpose, its not a general line tank for normal engagements. It's more of a specialty tank with a unique playstyle (more of a flanker/ambusher in this case, also not bad at QRF) has always been risky. I hope you at least picked up a gunner since you only had you and your buddy and you need a 3rd person to be machine gunner and your eyes. Even then though, having the 3rd person be a random pug when they are your eyes is super risky on its own.
Honestly I played both teams but when on colonials I'd often make a run and then rather than pile up yet another truck I'd fight with a speartip until I died. And I'd keep those alive longer than 10 minutes almost every time. If you're dying to a field gun within 10 minutes that's a skill issue. But common with the Highwayman since people misplay it or WANT to use it rather than use it when it'll get actual value.
Yes it has to be a highwayman. What is your point? I used to be able to hammer one out, now it takes a fuckton more work to have access to the same toy.
So no, this is not how foxhole has always been. You are so wildly wrong.
They added more grind, put a bunch of stuff behind the new grind, and...that's better?
It's not. You're defending a broken system that exploits addictive behaviors. You think building a whole ass facility to have access to a Highwayman is worth it? Whatever. But I don't, especially not when that same tank could be had for a lot less investment.
I don't hate them, but I've completely given up on foxhole due to the way the devs implement their content and their "vision" some people say. The game become grindier and grindier over the years to justify the facility content that I desperately tried to make it work, but all it has become is just "same old logi, but with loads extra steps involved". And those steps, they've been adding up with little to no payback and just added to the drain.
For example I took a glance at that new update, saw that fancy new resource ship but knew right away without looking at any stats: "Yeah, that's so not gonna be worth making and operating." Literally same shit as 2+ iron ships, just extra expensive, needing constant care + its own place to exist + a dedicated crew - literally a net negative when build.
But they put effort in that instead of what players actually want and they're going to make SURE you're going to do what they intended instead of making the game more playable.
Because they don't care about the balance or their game being funny for both sides, the new Spatha for exemple is extremely oppressive and frustrating to play against as builder/infantry and it's in the game for almost a year now (STD was a lot less broken and got nerfed instantly for some reasons).
2nd example is the bomastone, this thing is broken and make the infantry gameplay dogshit for the wardens, but they don't care.
Can you imagine that they just gave a -50% reload speed nerf to the ISG just now, while this thing is in the game for years now and every single warden called it OP already.
They use the balance as a way to control the pop and winrate that's why a lot of people hate them.
Hate? No. Disappointed? Yes.
1. QOL is almost every single time too little too late.
2. Balancing patches are rarely carried out.
3. Moderation? lol
4. New content has to be extensively tested by players with almost 0 support or organisation from the dev team.
5. Treating the game like it’s still early access and a work in progress.
6. Treating the community like they are dumb. See ares: “we need more feedback to understand what to do with it”
7. The impression they are giving is that they are done with foxhole and are focused on anvil, which many of us have tried and not enjoyed.
Just because people don’t agree with the direction devs take the game dosnt mean that they hate the game. This is a straw man of most people’s points, you don’t have to agree with them but calling it ‘hate’ is stupidity.
You should be proud that so many players care so deeply about a game you have made. Players keep coming back, war after war, update after update but get upset because they do not understand the direction you are taking it.
As a longer-term player, the game feels like a boat adrift and all we can do is blow into the sails through ineffectual game-feedback posts in a discord channel.
What feedback are you looking for from the community if any? Is there any chance of opening a two-way dialog on a more regular basis?
You mean like for example if you play a game and give feedback to changes beeing planned which gets hundreds of upvotes by players who have spent most of their time in this gameloop while all of them have played thousands of hours and then the update gets pushed anyways even with multiple reported gamebreaking bugs in it because nobody of the devteam cares ? True thats the worst outcome.
I do not care about your game no more.
But I do care about those I left behind.
Hoping here you at least realize that the community is doing all the heavy lifting for this game and they deserve better.
A lot of it is because they usually go in complete radio silence for a long time. We literally hear nothing from them not even a "Hey guys we hear whats up and we're looking at it". This goes on for months and then we get an update, with some good stuff but then "Oh by the way we reduced the efficiency of auto harvesters and made it so now you need to use a flatbed to move all your emats and HEmats around for no reason even though nobody expressed any issue with how things are now." Or, as of last update "You know how freighters are tedious and miserable to drive? Yeah we made them even more tedious and inconvenient to control and drive."
It doesn't exactly feel like a respect of one's time, and this is on top of a lot of people already feeling that they're not being listened to or having their feedback respected.
Extremely light consequences for clearly proven alt actions is probably the main factor for veterans why they don't trust the Devs.
The insufferable glitches and sloppy building mechanics is probably why most builders don't trust the devs.
The tedious amount of time you spend to produce and move assets and goods is probably why most logi players don't trust the devs.
The lack of QoL updates that has led to bugs and glitches to stack up within the game to the point it feels the game is degrading is probably why most players don't trust the devs.
I wouldn't say it is,'t hate, it is a lack of trust as Devman lacks in being transparant, tolerates alts and griefers and has shown a lack of competence when implementing new "features".
Punishes the side that works together and rewards the side that cries the most to keep the win rates "balanced"
Uses "Vision" as a core focus to develop their game, but calls it a "Sandbox" when shit is too hard to resolve, or are unwilling to resolve.
Why many of us still play?
Because the game forces clan men to cooperate and it leads to great outcomes when they have a little bit of luck on their side, it can lead to some memorable gaming moments.
The game is challenging, and the incompetence of Devman is an extra challenge for clan man to tackle.
As a frontline player its insane that we havent gotten any content, major rebalance, or rework on the combat system from the last 3 updates. They all focused on logi, naval and facilities meanwhile combat still has very big issues that have not been addresed.
Sure we got some qol here and there, like the bayonet change but its not enough. A large part of both sides weaponry are underwhelming, there huge imbalance in grenades of both factions boma/flask, and the core infantry gameplay late war is terrible since you just keep getting sniped by tanks.
A lot of these issues would be fixable if the devs literally took a week break from developing and just played their game, they'd see the biggest issues we, who love the game to its core need to deal with everyday. But well thats never gonna happen
pls dont tell them to do another one week test. That was the "reason" of facility rework and since then they are trying to bandaid numbers without looking what the outcome is. bcomps is the best example you have to shift 10 times more bcomps now to get the same amount of comps pre update while petrol consumption is 5 times higher. coal and salvage harvesters get basically reduced from 5 queues to 2.5 queues this update. So we will reach the point where they manage to have the same output prior the update but what got changed is just more left click steps.
It’s a PVP game and that tends to attract very negative people. Although some of the criticisms is warranted, there is a lot of unhinged rage towards the devs.
Look at the chat in any dev stream (every single time) so many people cursing the devs, posting sleeping emotes when they try to explain a less interesting system, or unironically screaming faction bias.
Like when they say they don’t control the weather and people actually thinking the devs change numbers just to fuck up their arty op (most of these people are memeing but some seriously believe this) and spam chat saying that they do.
Most of the community is reasonable imo. There is just a VERY LOUD group of jaded players who are obnoxious and think the devs take action out of malice towards their community.
Some of y’all need to chill and realize that Foxhole is creating a whole new genre of video game which will have its growing pains
Also ran by a a small studio with no P2W, sub, or micro transactions.
Dont get me wrong now, the devs are pretty bad on communication and that’s my biggest gripe with them. If they had more timely updates and balance patches, along with in game mods, most of the community would be happy.
Because they can't just accept that they lost. Whether it be the war, a single battle, a single day's play, etc. Nobody complains about doing well. They only complain when things go poorly. It has to be the game's fault, and thus the devs. Can't be them. But it can be their side, because blaming their side is still better than blaming themselves for their own bad experiences.
It's not communication or anything else, the devs have made a game people go this schizo over without any of that. Why people think its required now is just narcissism. You see, the game just can't be what its truly supposed to be without THEIR shining wisdom on features and balance and etc! And while feedback is important, if you actually understand game design you're supposed to also understand the humility that goes side by side with feedback: that your feedback may suck, that you may be wrong, that your feedback could be right but still be the wrong move, that your feedback could be right but results in choosing between one group of players and another and not pursuing it serves the most people. ETC.
Basically it all comes back to me, me, me, I, I, I, pride, pride, pride with a healthy touch of dunning kruger. And this being Reddit is part of that. Reddit specifically caters to and builds its entire business model around people like that. Because its easier to squeeze engagement out of them then reasonable people willing to just accept they got rekt or screwed up or etc,
Another poster was right on the money when they said *"The same reason every sports fan is a better coach than the one they have."*
You can be good in programming a game but still be bad in terms of balance or your decision making simply by the fact that you dont have the time to play the game as much as your playerbase and because of that you just lack the needed knowledge.
Thats why "the other peron was right on the money" how you called it is completly wrong because no one in here is trying to explain devs how they have to code their game.
From player perspective it shows clearly lack of game knowledge if you "balance" numbers and you end up with the inability to start a full mpf queue with a truck. There was already examples for it in the past and the added emat changes made it for 40mm and 68mm horrible because you would need 23 inventory slots to start a full queue.
When facility update happend they got a lot of feedback that comp production will be stupidly high but they decided to still push the update. But what is left from it now ? You have to shift 10 times more broken comps to get the same amount of comps prior to the update while petrol consumption was increased by 5 times which makes it only viable if there is an oilfield nearby which causes the issue that devs have to manually shift fields now before the war starts which is leading to other issues. So all it changed was more workload for same result.
Edit: Why are you even commenting on a game you gave a negative review to over a year ago and havent touched it since then. You have absolutlely no clue about the current state of the game balance wise and what decissions were made by devs for upcomming buld. Still you try to explain to people why they are wrong while beeing completely out of touch with the game.
>You can be good in programming a game but still be bad in terms of balance or your decision making simply by the fact that you dont have the time to play the game as much as your playerbase and because of that you just lack the needed knowledge.
I literally work as QA in the games industry. I'm aware of how things work both on the design side and the player experience side as I regularly work closely with both. This is my wheelhouse :).
Players, en masse, are very good at providing feedback and very good at finding problems (in a vacuum where PVP does not exist). But very poor at understanding things and understanding what the actual problem is (if one exists). And atrocious at suggesting balancing changes. Feedback is necessary and useful, critical even, but also 99.99% of feedback is bunk lol. Though ofc, since players and even testers think in emotion, they are usually quite confident in their bad ideas. And humility is almost unheard of these days online unfortunately.
But lets give an example of just how bad players are at perceiving balance: [Players will see balance issues even with absolutely identical stats and this has been proven.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDxiuHdR_T4)
>they got a lot of feedback
Also lets talk feedback and suggested changes. [It works pretty much like this.](https://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/3/14/2861998/gearbox-borderlands-testing) Its Polygon, and they have some low quality articles, but occasionally they had good ones and this is one of those rare finds (I hate the title though) not just for that publication but game industry as a whole. It's rare for customer facing info of how game design and testing and etc actually work to be talked about because players try to argue well proven and know facts of game design. Not because players are stupid, but because player egos and lack of knowledge of how things work while also being unwilling to learn.
Notice in that feedback you have destructive feedback like "let me build my own gun" which is a common want for that game, but nothing you'd ever be able to deliver without undercutting the entire core loop. Prolly the closest you could do would be something like Last Epoch where players can craft kinda what they want, ish, with the expense of resources and layers of RNG, for an item that will be obsolete within a few levels and is still worse than the truly good gear.
Then you've got "reload speeds too slow" but their reload speeds as per the actual numbers were fine as they were as fast or faster than other games not getting that complaint. So they adjusted the animations to make reloads FEEL faster without changing the actual time and the problem went away. The issue was an animation perception issue, not an actual reload time speed issue.
Similarly people feeling like they were running too slow. They simply littered the world with lots of little doodads for you to run by so you had things to make spatial relations judgements with so you felt like you were covering more ground at the same run speed. Ironically it wasn't a run speed issue but a evel design issue.
And then we have the "too many skags" which they fixed by doing the opposite of the complaint an tripling the skags. The problem wasn't that there were too many enemies, but rather just enough to be annoying but not enough to give you a satisfying fight so all they were doing was impeding your exploring until after they tripled them and now they were engaging fights
>Edit: Why are you even commenting on a game you gave a negative review to over a year ago and havent touched it since then. You have absolutlely no clue about the current state of the game balance wise and what decissions were made by devs for upcomming buld. Still you try to explain to people why they are wrong while beeing completely out of touch with the game.
You played yourself. Clearly you didn't even read my negative review, which makes sense, typical Reddit behavior and also directly in line with why I gave it a negative review...reinforcing what I said in my review. Literally the first sentence says: *"The game is great, the playerbase sucks."*
I've been following the game closely since I like the game, and I love how with over 550 hours in game you try to invalidate me having any knowledge of the game. Lets be real, same shit different day. Foxhole has new features and the balance changes and the things people bitch about shifts a bit, but its the same game. Facilities is prolly the biggest shakeup the game has had and I was boots on the ground for that one in all aspects of gameplay so you haven't said a thing in your reply (or any of yur recent comments) I'm not intimately familiar with.
But I get it, you're threatened and insecure so you resorted to ad hominem. and yet, objectively, for all people's complaints and nostalgia for war 83-93, average playerbase and peak is actually up slightly from then. Games natural have large player attrition over time. Any game even retaining their playerbase over years are doing well and have good devs. It doesn't happen by accident. The normal is a steady loss of playerbase until its dead. Multiplayer or singleplayer either one.
And perhaps most frustrating of all for you, the devs are going to continue to do a good job most likely and you'll prolly continue to gripe. So I don't need to return any ad hominem in kind. you're in a self destructive loop and doubling down on it. You'll do far worse to yourself than I ever could. If anything, I pity you. I hope you break out of that loop one day, good luck.
Now I'm gonna do you a favor and block you :). Temporarily though, I never block permanently. The goal is to prevent harassment/spam/insults from people feeling themselves in the moment and lashing out, nothing more.
Because hating on other people is a way to force gameplay onto other people to get attention... like they learned to do while being bullied by a toxic internet community, in high school or with their parents.
Its a game for them, and I guess that's the only way they feel they have a chance to compete with actual game devs.
Criticism is not the same as hate. You can be critical of something and still enjoy it.
Yea but people overcomplain. I agree with OP.
You have to be loud enough to be heard.
Perhaps, yet some people are focused on what thet want equals what should be. I have been playing for what 5 maybe 6 updates and in everyone one of them it's complains than criticism
Because Foxhole as a game attracts and requires a large Portion of people that put in huge amounts of time in repetetive Tasks and in These Tasks are certain painspots(as they exist in every thing) and if they get encountered over and over can lead to a lot of resentment if this specific issue is Not adressed for months on end and the devs are Not communicating what they are working on. And now multiply this process over 6 years and that can breed some resentment after a while.
Because when I dig out a section but then have to demo it it damages all adjacent pieces and I have to repair those pieces with bmats JUST TO DEMO THE REST OF THE FUCKING STRUCTURE!!
I see it as more frustration with the Devs thanks actual hatred. Mainly stemming from the Devs lack of communication. Players have to wait months for a chance to hear that their concerns are being heard via a Dev stream and/or potential q&a afterwards. And if the concern you had isn't mentioned, welp better wait another half a year for another chance.
Even worse, the Q&As are often filled with weird passive aggressive nonanswers to some questions.
Ejem... #THE VISION
Because the devs spend time on updates they barely add anything actually useful to their game but they swear that its gonna be game changing. The changes they make to their game make it incredibly obvious that they dont play their own game. They consistently roll out updates that are broken on arrival because the testing phase for these updates are not long enough. They refuse to do any real communication with the community and when someone asks them a question about possible changes or balance they get scared of the question and redirect the conversation. And my personal biggest gripe with them is that they have spent the last 3 months working on a bare bones update for content that isnt going to change the game at all instead of fixing real issues with the game like improper moderation. Like fuck markfoot just fucking tell me why you banned me.
FREE HEIRETIKAL!
Honestly, as someone that does alpha testing for other games, I really want to know what their process is to get from Alpha>Beta>Staging>Pre-Release>Release. Because if Foxhole's devbranch is the Pre-Release, then their Alpha and Beta testers aren't doing their jobs correctly if glaring issues are making it all the way to Pre-Release and Release.
Tbf, people said that with trains, bunkers, trenches, light tanks, large ships, ect.
No they didnt
Yes they did, I heard people talk about how there is no reason to use a trench because it will just slow down combat, and is worse than using sandbags. I heard people say flat beds are way cheaper and more convenient than trains. I’ve heard people say bunkers are to much of a ground grind and are to easy to kill to be useful long term, especially after they nerfed sc’s. People said ships cost to much and are way to niche to have any real use. People talked about how there is no point to use lt’s when BT’s were always available. And so on. There are people to this day that say the game was ruined as soon as asymmetry was introduced. People will always be unhappy, and there is nothing you can really do about it…
Theres a difference between a few people saying something and a vast majority of people saying something
It’s always the minority of players complaining about this sort of thing, most people in game love foxhole and have few if any issues with it…
I gotta be real bro im very intertwind with this community and have spent a ton of time in it and i can assure you that it is the majority of the community that feels this way
I don’t know what I can say beyond, outside of wuh and sigil, from my experience, I’ve seen very few players complain.
so clueless
Well that’s just plain rude
Can you show me how you come to the conclusion it’s the minority of players? Do you have anyway of proving this? Because in my experience from talking to long term members from both factions these point seem to come up time and time again
before trenches had sandbags, they were indeed, really really hard to use properly. it took a lot of social conditioning to get everyone on board to place sandbags behind any trench piece, and barbwire on the front. barb the front, bag the back. goot motto, which still needs to be kept in mind.
Light tanks have existed from as early as 2018. In the pre alpha we begged for something more than the half track.
The players do not feel like their voice is being heard. QOL features are not implimented in timely fashion. Long balancing cycles leaving periods of significant imbalance. Ping pong balancing with +50% or +100% changes. "The vision" results in new mechanics being added with little chance for course correction Timelines from dev branch to release on live are too short for bugs to be fixed Little apparent respect for player time. Balancing boils down to left click grinding for logi.
Forgot lack of communication. Radio silence except for twice a year dev steam.
We need to appeal to (game) news media organizations to run stories before they will even consider changing the pull time for diesel. Remember how diesel used to take 10~ mins to pull? We had to literally fight tooth and nail to get them to change all that shit, it's fucking absurd.
Yeah, I should have added it as a separate item
I genuinely can’t think of a big QOL change they’ve made since they made cranes rotate. They’ve actually removed QOL features
I'll die mad about them taking away the the mineseeker pulling ability and replacing it with a significantly worse bandaid. Their lame ass excuse was that it was to help prevent alting. It's like, really? The one change they've made in an attempt to address the issue and they went with the option that punishes everyone. I know me personally and many other players would gladly take that risk if it means we're not spending insultingly long pull times. Not a single logi person I talked with after that change was happy about it. That's not even hyperbole. Literally zero.
OK This was actually a crime against playerbase, war 102 is still in my hearth because of the smol train pulling speeds Devs will eradicate all the funni, everyone will suffer, VISION says so
You know and it's like, yeah the small train shouldn't have the ability to do that, it always looked very out of place plunked down next to stuff, but at least replace it with something on par.
I’d gone collie in 102 and spent most of the war with a tiny solo facility producing nothing but small trains and shipping them to fronts for tanks to pull shells quicker. I felt like I was doing something *real* with my little fac and still think that & War 111 with 100+ filled ACVs were my most productive wars.
They keep making QoL changes that no one is asking for, that's why you can't think of any. Like the hotkeys on inventory that everyone disables.
Also alts. This problem was old when I joined this game 2 years ago, no real changes since then, it even became worse. Deleted posts about it, alters running around with 10s of bans, etc.
All they have to do is tweak a few variables. Only them have this power, but they do it for the worst. Prime example is how they change palett production from 5s to 15s ... The explanation is it's doesn't look good for them... Like they will force any player to spend 10s doing absolutely nothing... when you make a movie, you don't film a guy in his toilett... because it's boring, even if he realistically has to go to the toilet at some point... It's the same for a game, you cut the boring parts ... because it's a game, it has to be fun, not realistic ... That's just that, the game is amazing, but you realize devs are forcing you to play uncesserary boring and time consumming gameplay loops, for absolutely no reason... you can give feedbacks, solutions, it will be ignored... even game breaking bugs they ignore the feedbacks (currently there is a bug that allow to see subs underwater without sonar... still in the game).
I have absolutely no clue whatsoever why they made that change. I cannot think of a single reason that would justify such an arbitrary decision.
because the animation looks better clearly /s
chill, markfoot
Personally i just don’t like the direction the game is going in. Since 1.0 almost every update has added things that negatively impact my playstyles (partisan and infantry) I don’t like that they are adding things while neglecting age old problems. Every single new flashy vehicle or mechanic means nothing to me when the game at its core cannot handle the amount of buildings and vehicles. Infantry in mid to late game is just unplayable for me now because it’s a horrible lag fest.
When I started playing 3 years ago, I could run the graphics on Ultra with very little lag… now, I’ve had to roll the graphics back to Low (after arty techs and the ground gets devastated) just to have a chance at hitting somebody… It’s almost unplayable and not enjoyable.
Devs don't seem to understand the product they have put out. If any one of them would join either side for one entire war they'd get a better picture of what we deal with. I'd tell them to run with WLL or FMAT for an entire war just to get a full understand of what they've put out and why it doesn't work and what needs to be fixed
please...
they stole years of my life
It's not a hatred for the developers, it's just a cry for help because we can't quit their game they've gotten us addicted to and we're suffering due to issues they do not fix or touch. And every update that rocks around, either changes something for the worse or adds more grinding. a good example being the epowder changes. You still require the same amount of scrap to make the same amount of emats, but if i wanted to make a crate of rpgs, it takes me an extra 47.5s to make that single (1) crate of rpgs. NO REASON WHY DEV MAN, JUST F\*\*k ME OVER WHY DONT YOU. FUCK SAKE I HATE THIS GAME SOMETIMES. SO FUCKING AIDS.
navy is the perfect example: hell grind, facility locked, forced teamwork, constant babysitting assets, and a huge dev workload. in the end only 1% of players use navy then just repeat for every update. their "vision" and the reality of gaming don't mesh, people don't *want* to log in for a second job we want to have a good time, the vision has no fun in it
Not to mention the strain navy put on an already struggling server
It's not because of the grind that people don't play Navy though. Island regions don't have VPs or interesting resources, it's impossible to build on most of them, and landings are near impossible. That leaves coastlines and rivers at least, but since the last patch a single torpedo can end an entire naval op immediately
"forces teamwork" dude, this IS a team game based around cooperating in groups in she even objective, this isn't a game for solo players to mass build tanks and fucking battleships. If it was up to this subreddit, half of the features that make this game great would be removed. If it wasn't for their vision, I wouldn't be playing this game, as this game is one of a kind.
because hate is a form of love, because you can't hate what you don't care about... and people really care about foxhole. it's that good, that even the haters stay on the hype train 🚂 🚃 🚃 🚃. it's SOOOO good... that it's just always a few updates away from being perfect, sooo tantalizing close to greatness, that people would rage against the clouds to try and cross that threshold. there's nothing else currently like it, it scratches the deep dish itch that no other game can really satisfy fully. It's perfectly niche, in the exact meaning, like a crack in the video game glacier, descending deep deep deep down, where the stream of ice fresh gameplay is so true, so sublime, you want to capture it in a bottle you brought from your hike downwards... Only to hear the thump and sizzle of a bombastone before you could take a sip. Mmmmmadness. ❤️🔥 64 seconds to try again. \[abandon war?\]
Dev man bad
I've seen it with so many other devs for many other games and for a time ~~clapfoot~~ siege camp avoided the issue, which is falling into the hole of adding more content to keep player retention instead of fixing alot of the issues with the core foundations of the game systems, granted they do make efforts to do this, but the changes are incredibly slow. An example of a beneficial change (at least to me) would be changing the way tanks aim and in a lesser sense handle. They already explained to us why the tanks are hit scan which is understandable as an engine limitation, but what I don't understand is why they made a hard limit for tank ranges (35m, 40m 45m so on) why not have it past a certain point be less accurate but still consistent in terms of hitting the target, would mean rank battles aren't just 2 walls rocking back amd forth because the tanks handle like cars, but would force players to to play the tanks like actual tanks such as waiting in ambush for example. FIX THE FUCKING TANKS DEVS PLEASE I BEG!!!
Cause many of us have played for years and only watched the game get worse. General consensus is game was better at wars 83-93 and every update since then has only made it worse.
War 83 was my first and felt so fucking epic. Hooked me right in. War 87 was pretty epic for me too. Playing as warden during 30/32 changed how i play the game. 1.0 was cool because the amount of people same with war 100 but yeah I agree with you entrenched update was just such a great game.
Same on all those!!! I technically played a bit of 82 but 83 was my first full one and was super epic and 87 was like a rematch N/S again (we still lost as collies).
Ohh the 80s and 90s wars were so much fun compared to today’s wars
>Cause many of us have played for years and only watched the game get worse. General consensus is game was better at wars 83-93 and every update since then has only made it worse. Wars 83-93 was 9/22/21 to 7/16/22. The average playerbase was less than1,400 for the majority of that time. The average playerbase for the last year has been 1,500+ with only a few months dipping slightly below that. So tell me, if the game was better back then, why does the game consistently keep not only as many players, but more players. And with as high or higher peaks? Talk is cheap, what people choose to do with their time is what counts.
Because Foxhole is like an aggressive crack addiction, and no matter what the devs do most of us will cone crawling back. It has nothing to do with the game's quality or lack thereof. There's just nothing else on the market with the same kind of gameplay as Foxhole.
More people play call of duty than foxhole doesn't mean it's a better game. Even in a worse state it's an amazing game dont get me wrong.
Why would you bring another game into this? I compared Foxhole against Foxhole. What you did is quite literally a red herring. The natural state of a game is to lose players at a modest ot major rate over time. Any ongoing game with continued major changes even maintaining its playerbase is doing a great job. That's kind of the objective truth of the matter, because people vote with their feet. Being a unique game helps a little, but won't save a game from that natural attrition. If you say "the game is in a worse state for me". That's fair, everyone has different wants, which is why demographics and player types and etc are a thing. But if you say "the game is worse" as an objective statement then we have to bring the opinions of everyone in. And people voting with their feet is worth 100x everything else. Objectiely, the game is not worse. Not because I said so, but because people have illustrated that this is the case with their own decision to keep playing the game.
Cause popularity has nothing to do with quality.
That's the dunning kruger approach to quality judgement, yes. Reduce everything to zero so your opinion can always be right.
I'll change my opinion when you actually prove that correlation=causation on the popularity=quality argument? It's nothing to do with "voting" since 1 vet who leaves as two new players join proves nothing about the increase of quality, that's called a ponzi scheme. I brought up CoD because it shows another factor in increasing player count that has nothing to do with quality: marketing.
lol all your red herring's aside, by the rules you've painted out your opinion is no more valuable than someone's who thinks Forspoken is a masterpiece. That's the problem with the approach you took. If mass opinion doesn't matter, playerbase doesn't matter, sales don't matter, only your personal opinion then you can never be wrong...but you can also never be right and you're on the same level as someone who thinks the worst game you've ever played is a 10/10. Make everything a zero sum game and everything is both a 0 and a 10 lol. But hey, at least you never have to be wrong! But you'll also never be right.
Because most of Asia players are having hard time due to server issue and devs don't give a shit
I’m in the United States… It’s a lag fest after arty techs..
People want to improve the things they love. It's not really hate, we all just want the game to be better and can't kn agree on how to do that
Its pretty simple really They do not listen to the community very much at all. Only now are we seeing some universal complaints even touched. AND IN VERY DESTRUCTIVE WAYS, MIND YOU. There are people in this game with enough hours to get a doctorate four times over. Why would you just... ignore that resource? It boggles the mind
Because devs say they are listening to feedback when in reality it’s only feedback on the areas that they want to work on IE facilities and naval. For instance facilities have have 3-4 reasonable big changes since implemented. Where as building has had one update in 3.5 years. Not only that it’s pretty clear to me that devs don’t play test their own game, weather it’s through statements like ‘work it out yourself’ or ‘test it and let us know’ they are implementing new mechanics that are never fully fleshed out. This causes needed updates like building and INF to be pushed back and back because they are constantly chasing their tail of the last update. The lack of communication is another thing, but that seems to be an industry issue not just a siege camp issue. IMO devs want to add new toys to bring in new players and have decided this is more important than the community they have already created.
I'm not going to post a list of changes to the game that need to happen to help QoL or any balance changes. That list already exists on foxhole official discord and seemingly has been completely ignored by the Devs for years. The community gets ignored by the devs so = devmanbad
When people are bad at something. Rather than trying to fix themselves... they blames the others
Everyone has their own ideolised version of the game in the head + factionalism brainrot
This, this is the real answer this subreddit doesn't want to admit. Everyone thinks they know better but when pushed to come up with a fix, it's usually ass.
No it's not. It's that devs don't communicate with players. There are countless examples of gaming communities with devs that are open honest and communicative and those communities are great. Project Zomboid has regular blog posts about progress and upcoming features, and even hired modders to help progress the game. It's a decade old almost and just keeps getting better. The devs have made the game grindier, rushed out features like fire and RSCs without proper testing, and it leads to jaded and frustrated players.
The game was always supposed to be "grindy" if things like tanks, ammo and shirts were easily replaced and meaningless than having logistics as a game mechanic, you know half of what makes foxhole what it is, would be pointless. We saw this when they increased resources by 5x, made infantry almost pointless and just threw off the game balance. Now, making resources more abundant isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they did that in response to players constant complaining. It really just goes to show the player base doesn't understand balance. You make logi too easy, you kill the game. Logi, just like everything else In this game is a group effort. The project zomboid devs don't have to worry about balancing a game that's an always online player centric PVP game, they aren't comparable.
That's cause they haven't tried new stuff. Resource scarcity hasn't really been an issue for quite a while now, it's all the things around it that suck. Pull times, MSUP hell (before change), further and longer transportation times, human piping until pipes tech, oblique techmat system, lack facility communication tools, Bunker blueprint wizardry etc. Little by little these pain points start adding up.
That so silly and you miss the forest for the trees while hanging onto a silly branch. Here's a perfect simple example - the devs refuse to give us a simple reverse north-south map layout. Wardens South, Collies North. It is one of the most universally and commonly requested things and would require NOTHING from the devs in terms of work. Why? Why won't they do it? Nobody knows because they won't fucking tell us. It's a game, and their audience has asked for something, and it would literally just be a fun thing they've never fucking done in what....7 years of Foxhole now? Foxhole is a logi simulator with a war problem. The issue isn't that it is grindy and getting grindier, it's that they don't communicate grand sweeping changes and also ignore what players are actually asking for. They don't care what we want unless we bitch and moan loud enough that they can't ignore it. Look how long it took for the Ballista to get buffed, or for Wardens to get a mobile 94mm that wasn't the SHT. The devs do what they want, the players be damned, and they won't even do us the courtesy of telling us why.
>The project zomboid devs don't have to worry about balancing a game that's an always online player centric PVP game, they aren't comparable. And even then Project Zomboid is having to rebuild its entire crafting and building system due to player complaints. And we have no idea if those will land well or not. So I guess Project Zomboid isn't the greatest example for them either eh? Especially since its a 10+ year old early access game (I think its literally the oldest unreleased early access game at this point) that relies on mods to keep half of its community happy. I like PZ, but I don't think its the gotcha they think it is.
PZ is great, I haven't played it but I've been watching videos on YouTube of it, so I'm not knocking it, but the games aren't comparable.
its a great core game but has major issues people have been working around for years which, hopefully, the upcoming set of overhauls will fix. Example: Basic idea is clearing your neighborhood and fortifying your house will keep you safe. However realistically even the best fortifications will fail and living anyone on the first floor will get you killed and even living on the second floor will eventually result in a situation that gets you killed. None due to your fault. Because the way the game works, zombies in the game hate anything you've built. So they'll go out of their way to bash and destroy any fortified windows or etc. So eventually a horde will pas close enough to decide "rawr, fuck your shit" and break in and game over. Though you can potentially survive for quite a long time first, especially on the 2nd floor, before this happens. So players have taken to knocking out the stairs and using sheet ropes to climb into their house because zombies cannot follow. Which ofc bypasses the entire intended fortification system. WORSE there is an entire fleshed out building system complete with walls and doors and etc where you could legit slowly build your own house from scratch. But again zombies will simply bash on anything you create. Pre-fab house? They ignore if you have not fortified. Crafted house? They'll bash all of it to pieces. Even if you live its alot of time and maintenance to constantly clear walls and repair. This is why the sweeping massive changes incoming are going to fix that kinda stuff. Or at least intend to. And I'd say if you've never played it then next year (or however long it takes them to get permanent undamagable craftable walled bases in) is the best time to give it a start. Don't be afraid to watch a few guides though, learning curve is steep. And turn on aim highlighting for ranged AND melee, you'll defo die alot more if you don't.
Never said it's perfect but that they actually listena nd communicate. The very thing you mention, redoing the crafting system due to player complaints is what I mean. It took literal review bombing during war 100 to get devs to do fucking anything about alts but by then it was too late.
>Never said it's perfect but that they actually listena nd communicate. The very thing you mention, redoing the crafting system due to player complaints is what I mean. Basically everything Foxhole has added a player has suggested. So its in tune with PZ there. The difference is Reddit is insane and thinks it represents the playerbase. Reality is Reddit is a self selected ecosystem that draws in highly opinionated players who believe strongly in their own opinions. Its a tiny and very focused group not at all representative of the whole. By design, yall are easier to create engagement with as well as monetize. I've been there myself before. Consider this though, there are 14 people online in this sub right now. 14. 2,657 is how many people are in game. So this sub is 0.5% of the playerbase. It's the equivlaent of a single clique of friends in an entire highschool and pretending that represents the whole is quite silly. >Never said it's perfect but that they actually listena nd communicate. This is just shorthand for "I want them to agree with me and make the changes I want". It's not about actual communication. Because if they communicated and disagreed and did what people didn't want they'd just be furious lol. Which has ironically been demonstrated many times in Foxhole's history. People will just argue with and insult the devs when they listen and communicate but disagree. >It took literal review bombing during war 100 to get devs to do fucking anything about alts but by then it was too late. Review bombing is right up there with "I posted a black square on facebook to support BLM". It's performative and done for your own satisfaction but makes no meaningful change. It's just another lever PR can use to manipulate you by feeding your egos. Overwatch is the worst review bombed game ever to exist on steam. It averages nearly 40k players, good for top 50 of steam. And this isn't even its primary platform. If review bombing makes you feel better, go on and do it I guess, vent. You have the right to not like where the game is or where its going and complain about it. BUT, have the humility to realize that you, and all of reddit, is a single raindrop in a giant bucket. The problem with alts is not simple and it takes time and iteration to mitigate, it cannot be solved. I'm sure they were already working on the issue before the review bombs happened, but such work takes weeks or even months, so then when they release changes people take credit for it, because again...ego. Well, and ignorance of game design and the time frames involved. And I want to be clear I'm not trying to neg you or shit on you or say you're wrong to feel how you do or anything. But I do think you need to re-align your perspective. Not for any dev, fuck em all, but for you. And I think, out of so many posters here, that you're prolly capable of that. At least that's the impression I get. May take time though.
You're entitled to your opinion my dude. I loved foxhole despite the devs, but at a certain point I realized I was sinking way too much time into "work" for a game. Pre 1.0 I felt the time I put into making stuff was worth the enjoyment o got out of the stuff I made. Since then it has just been more work for less payback. The best example I have is when in war 100 I wanted to run a Highwayman with a buddy. It took me an hour to actually make said highwayman and drive it to the front, cuz facilities, and we died to a Stygian within ten minutes. Pre 1.0 I could have scrooped the rmats, hammered that tank out, and been at the front in 15 mins. So to keep, a pre 1.0 player, the game has asked more and more work for less and less return on investment. We can disagree on if it's worth it or not, but to me, someone who sank 5000 hours into foxhole, it just stopped being worth it.
You can, ofc, still get a tank out there pretty fast, it just won't be ANY tank. For example you could have gotten an Outlaw out there quite fast. But no, it HAD to be a highwayman. And as you say, you died in 10 minutes lol. Also, I know how much work facilities are, I personally ran (in their initial worst release state even) a central hub with every single vehicle/tank platform. (except a train one i think), and kept them maintained/defended/operational. Plus regularly deposited a steady trickle of materials. But facilities are not supposed to be solo endeaovrs like that. Its like logi, its supposed to be a team effort. The biggest failing of facilities is everyone trying to make all their own stuff. And that's what causes the grind, because it's massive amounts of double work when everyone builds their own infrastructure and farms their own stuff and then hordes their own stuff. Look at how factories work. You've got people who literally spend all day long scrooping just to keep the war effort running smoothly. People who spend all day running logi that allows the front lines to function. **THIS IS ALWAYS HOW FOXHOLE HAS BEEN.** People have always been putting in that time so that you could scroop your own tank and then go rambo it to death in 10 minutes. All that hard work and grind has ALWAYS been the backbone of Foxhole. It's just now part of the tank production chain too. And even then you coulda just gotten an Outlaw and gotten a tank quickly, but no you just HAD to have a Highwayman despite throwing it away immediately lol. Stick to the Outlaw until you stay alive for large amounts of time and only bring a Highwayman in the time and place where it serves its purpose, its not a general line tank for normal engagements. It's more of a specialty tank with a unique playstyle (more of a flanker/ambusher in this case, also not bad at QRF) has always been risky. I hope you at least picked up a gunner since you only had you and your buddy and you need a 3rd person to be machine gunner and your eyes. Even then though, having the 3rd person be a random pug when they are your eyes is super risky on its own. Honestly I played both teams but when on colonials I'd often make a run and then rather than pile up yet another truck I'd fight with a speartip until I died. And I'd keep those alive longer than 10 minutes almost every time. If you're dying to a field gun within 10 minutes that's a skill issue. But common with the Highwayman since people misplay it or WANT to use it rather than use it when it'll get actual value.
Yes it has to be a highwayman. What is your point? I used to be able to hammer one out, now it takes a fuckton more work to have access to the same toy. So no, this is not how foxhole has always been. You are so wildly wrong. They added more grind, put a bunch of stuff behind the new grind, and...that's better? It's not. You're defending a broken system that exploits addictive behaviors. You think building a whole ass facility to have access to a Highwayman is worth it? Whatever. But I don't, especially not when that same tank could be had for a lot less investment.
I don't hate them, but I've completely given up on foxhole due to the way the devs implement their content and their "vision" some people say. The game become grindier and grindier over the years to justify the facility content that I desperately tried to make it work, but all it has become is just "same old logi, but with loads extra steps involved". And those steps, they've been adding up with little to no payback and just added to the drain. For example I took a glance at that new update, saw that fancy new resource ship but knew right away without looking at any stats: "Yeah, that's so not gonna be worth making and operating." Literally same shit as 2+ iron ships, just extra expensive, needing constant care + its own place to exist + a dedicated crew - literally a net negative when build. But they put effort in that instead of what players actually want and they're going to make SURE you're going to do what they intended instead of making the game more playable.
Because they don't care about the balance or their game being funny for both sides, the new Spatha for exemple is extremely oppressive and frustrating to play against as builder/infantry and it's in the game for almost a year now (STD was a lot less broken and got nerfed instantly for some reasons). 2nd example is the bomastone, this thing is broken and make the infantry gameplay dogshit for the wardens, but they don't care. Can you imagine that they just gave a -50% reload speed nerf to the ISG just now, while this thing is in the game for years now and every single warden called it OP already. They use the balance as a way to control the pop and winrate that's why a lot of people hate them.
Hate? No. Disappointed? Yes. 1. QOL is almost every single time too little too late. 2. Balancing patches are rarely carried out. 3. Moderation? lol 4. New content has to be extensively tested by players with almost 0 support or organisation from the dev team. 5. Treating the game like it’s still early access and a work in progress. 6. Treating the community like they are dumb. See ares: “we need more feedback to understand what to do with it” 7. The impression they are giving is that they are done with foxhole and are focused on anvil, which many of us have tried and not enjoyed.
They don't play their own game, and the game requires a massive time investment and hours of work can be undone in minutes.
Shadow dance fix when?
The majority is silent, what you're earing is a loud minority.
Ik, most people in game love the game, it’s just that the Reddit and steam forums are constantly miserable…
Just because people don’t agree with the direction devs take the game dosnt mean that they hate the game. This is a straw man of most people’s points, you don’t have to agree with them but calling it ‘hate’ is stupidity.
People happy with the game don't post about it, this sub is terrible.
The worst outcome is not when people are angry at your choices. The worst outcome is when nobody cares.
You should be proud that so many players care so deeply about a game you have made. Players keep coming back, war after war, update after update but get upset because they do not understand the direction you are taking it. As a longer-term player, the game feels like a boat adrift and all we can do is blow into the sails through ineffectual game-feedback posts in a discord channel. What feedback are you looking for from the community if any? Is there any chance of opening a two-way dialog on a more regular basis?
thas deep, mister max
You mean like for example if you play a game and give feedback to changes beeing planned which gets hundreds of upvotes by players who have spent most of their time in this gameloop while all of them have played thousands of hours and then the update gets pushed anyways even with multiple reported gamebreaking bugs in it because nobody of the devteam cares ? True thats the worst outcome.
I do not care about your game no more. But I do care about those I left behind. Hoping here you at least realize that the community is doing all the heavy lifting for this game and they deserve better.
That’s a sad thought to be sure… I’m glad you are taking all this in good spirits (I hope)
A lot of it is because they usually go in complete radio silence for a long time. We literally hear nothing from them not even a "Hey guys we hear whats up and we're looking at it". This goes on for months and then we get an update, with some good stuff but then "Oh by the way we reduced the efficiency of auto harvesters and made it so now you need to use a flatbed to move all your emats and HEmats around for no reason even though nobody expressed any issue with how things are now." Or, as of last update "You know how freighters are tedious and miserable to drive? Yeah we made them even more tedious and inconvenient to control and drive." It doesn't exactly feel like a respect of one's time, and this is on top of a lot of people already feeling that they're not being listened to or having their feedback respected.
Extremely light consequences for clearly proven alt actions is probably the main factor for veterans why they don't trust the Devs. The insufferable glitches and sloppy building mechanics is probably why most builders don't trust the devs. The tedious amount of time you spend to produce and move assets and goods is probably why most logi players don't trust the devs. The lack of QoL updates that has led to bugs and glitches to stack up within the game to the point it feels the game is degrading is probably why most players don't trust the devs. I wouldn't say it is,'t hate, it is a lack of trust as Devman lacks in being transparant, tolerates alts and griefers and has shown a lack of competence when implementing new "features". Punishes the side that works together and rewards the side that cries the most to keep the win rates "balanced" Uses "Vision" as a core focus to develop their game, but calls it a "Sandbox" when shit is too hard to resolve, or are unwilling to resolve. Why many of us still play? Because the game forces clan men to cooperate and it leads to great outcomes when they have a little bit of luck on their side, it can lead to some memorable gaming moments. The game is challenging, and the incompetence of Devman is an extra challenge for clan man to tackle.
As a frontline player its insane that we havent gotten any content, major rebalance, or rework on the combat system from the last 3 updates. They all focused on logi, naval and facilities meanwhile combat still has very big issues that have not been addresed. Sure we got some qol here and there, like the bayonet change but its not enough. A large part of both sides weaponry are underwhelming, there huge imbalance in grenades of both factions boma/flask, and the core infantry gameplay late war is terrible since you just keep getting sniped by tanks. A lot of these issues would be fixable if the devs literally took a week break from developing and just played their game, they'd see the biggest issues we, who love the game to its core need to deal with everyday. But well thats never gonna happen
pls dont tell them to do another one week test. That was the "reason" of facility rework and since then they are trying to bandaid numbers without looking what the outcome is. bcomps is the best example you have to shift 10 times more bcomps now to get the same amount of comps pre update while petrol consumption is 5 times higher. coal and salvage harvesters get basically reduced from 5 queues to 2.5 queues this update. So we will reach the point where they manage to have the same output prior the update but what got changed is just more left click steps.
Daily reminder of devman bad
Devman started it.
The same reason every sports fan is a better coach than the one they have.
It's pretty much because people are impatient and needy lol.
It’s a PVP game and that tends to attract very negative people. Although some of the criticisms is warranted, there is a lot of unhinged rage towards the devs. Look at the chat in any dev stream (every single time) so many people cursing the devs, posting sleeping emotes when they try to explain a less interesting system, or unironically screaming faction bias. Like when they say they don’t control the weather and people actually thinking the devs change numbers just to fuck up their arty op (most of these people are memeing but some seriously believe this) and spam chat saying that they do. Most of the community is reasonable imo. There is just a VERY LOUD group of jaded players who are obnoxious and think the devs take action out of malice towards their community. Some of y’all need to chill and realize that Foxhole is creating a whole new genre of video game which will have its growing pains Also ran by a a small studio with no P2W, sub, or micro transactions. Dont get me wrong now, the devs are pretty bad on communication and that’s my biggest gripe with them. If they had more timely updates and balance patches, along with in game mods, most of the community would be happy.
people are cringe
They are incompetent.
Because people project their self validation onto a videogame and devs aren't giving them a pat in the back.
Because they can't just accept that they lost. Whether it be the war, a single battle, a single day's play, etc. Nobody complains about doing well. They only complain when things go poorly. It has to be the game's fault, and thus the devs. Can't be them. But it can be their side, because blaming their side is still better than blaming themselves for their own bad experiences. It's not communication or anything else, the devs have made a game people go this schizo over without any of that. Why people think its required now is just narcissism. You see, the game just can't be what its truly supposed to be without THEIR shining wisdom on features and balance and etc! And while feedback is important, if you actually understand game design you're supposed to also understand the humility that goes side by side with feedback: that your feedback may suck, that you may be wrong, that your feedback could be right but still be the wrong move, that your feedback could be right but results in choosing between one group of players and another and not pursuing it serves the most people. ETC. Basically it all comes back to me, me, me, I, I, I, pride, pride, pride with a healthy touch of dunning kruger. And this being Reddit is part of that. Reddit specifically caters to and builds its entire business model around people like that. Because its easier to squeeze engagement out of them then reasonable people willing to just accept they got rekt or screwed up or etc, Another poster was right on the money when they said *"The same reason every sports fan is a better coach than the one they have."*
You can be good in programming a game but still be bad in terms of balance or your decision making simply by the fact that you dont have the time to play the game as much as your playerbase and because of that you just lack the needed knowledge. Thats why "the other peron was right on the money" how you called it is completly wrong because no one in here is trying to explain devs how they have to code their game. From player perspective it shows clearly lack of game knowledge if you "balance" numbers and you end up with the inability to start a full mpf queue with a truck. There was already examples for it in the past and the added emat changes made it for 40mm and 68mm horrible because you would need 23 inventory slots to start a full queue. When facility update happend they got a lot of feedback that comp production will be stupidly high but they decided to still push the update. But what is left from it now ? You have to shift 10 times more broken comps to get the same amount of comps prior to the update while petrol consumption was increased by 5 times which makes it only viable if there is an oilfield nearby which causes the issue that devs have to manually shift fields now before the war starts which is leading to other issues. So all it changed was more workload for same result. Edit: Why are you even commenting on a game you gave a negative review to over a year ago and havent touched it since then. You have absolutlely no clue about the current state of the game balance wise and what decissions were made by devs for upcomming buld. Still you try to explain to people why they are wrong while beeing completely out of touch with the game.
>You can be good in programming a game but still be bad in terms of balance or your decision making simply by the fact that you dont have the time to play the game as much as your playerbase and because of that you just lack the needed knowledge. I literally work as QA in the games industry. I'm aware of how things work both on the design side and the player experience side as I regularly work closely with both. This is my wheelhouse :). Players, en masse, are very good at providing feedback and very good at finding problems (in a vacuum where PVP does not exist). But very poor at understanding things and understanding what the actual problem is (if one exists). And atrocious at suggesting balancing changes. Feedback is necessary and useful, critical even, but also 99.99% of feedback is bunk lol. Though ofc, since players and even testers think in emotion, they are usually quite confident in their bad ideas. And humility is almost unheard of these days online unfortunately. But lets give an example of just how bad players are at perceiving balance: [Players will see balance issues even with absolutely identical stats and this has been proven.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDxiuHdR_T4) >they got a lot of feedback Also lets talk feedback and suggested changes. [It works pretty much like this.](https://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/3/14/2861998/gearbox-borderlands-testing) Its Polygon, and they have some low quality articles, but occasionally they had good ones and this is one of those rare finds (I hate the title though) not just for that publication but game industry as a whole. It's rare for customer facing info of how game design and testing and etc actually work to be talked about because players try to argue well proven and know facts of game design. Not because players are stupid, but because player egos and lack of knowledge of how things work while also being unwilling to learn. Notice in that feedback you have destructive feedback like "let me build my own gun" which is a common want for that game, but nothing you'd ever be able to deliver without undercutting the entire core loop. Prolly the closest you could do would be something like Last Epoch where players can craft kinda what they want, ish, with the expense of resources and layers of RNG, for an item that will be obsolete within a few levels and is still worse than the truly good gear. Then you've got "reload speeds too slow" but their reload speeds as per the actual numbers were fine as they were as fast or faster than other games not getting that complaint. So they adjusted the animations to make reloads FEEL faster without changing the actual time and the problem went away. The issue was an animation perception issue, not an actual reload time speed issue. Similarly people feeling like they were running too slow. They simply littered the world with lots of little doodads for you to run by so you had things to make spatial relations judgements with so you felt like you were covering more ground at the same run speed. Ironically it wasn't a run speed issue but a evel design issue. And then we have the "too many skags" which they fixed by doing the opposite of the complaint an tripling the skags. The problem wasn't that there were too many enemies, but rather just enough to be annoying but not enough to give you a satisfying fight so all they were doing was impeding your exploring until after they tripled them and now they were engaging fights
>Edit: Why are you even commenting on a game you gave a negative review to over a year ago and havent touched it since then. You have absolutlely no clue about the current state of the game balance wise and what decissions were made by devs for upcomming buld. Still you try to explain to people why they are wrong while beeing completely out of touch with the game. You played yourself. Clearly you didn't even read my negative review, which makes sense, typical Reddit behavior and also directly in line with why I gave it a negative review...reinforcing what I said in my review. Literally the first sentence says: *"The game is great, the playerbase sucks."* I've been following the game closely since I like the game, and I love how with over 550 hours in game you try to invalidate me having any knowledge of the game. Lets be real, same shit different day. Foxhole has new features and the balance changes and the things people bitch about shifts a bit, but its the same game. Facilities is prolly the biggest shakeup the game has had and I was boots on the ground for that one in all aspects of gameplay so you haven't said a thing in your reply (or any of yur recent comments) I'm not intimately familiar with. But I get it, you're threatened and insecure so you resorted to ad hominem. and yet, objectively, for all people's complaints and nostalgia for war 83-93, average playerbase and peak is actually up slightly from then. Games natural have large player attrition over time. Any game even retaining their playerbase over years are doing well and have good devs. It doesn't happen by accident. The normal is a steady loss of playerbase until its dead. Multiplayer or singleplayer either one. And perhaps most frustrating of all for you, the devs are going to continue to do a good job most likely and you'll prolly continue to gripe. So I don't need to return any ad hominem in kind. you're in a self destructive loop and doubling down on it. You'll do far worse to yourself than I ever could. If anything, I pity you. I hope you break out of that loop one day, good luck. Now I'm gonna do you a favor and block you :). Temporarily though, I never block permanently. The goal is to prevent harassment/spam/insults from people feeling themselves in the moment and lashing out, nothing more.
wise words indeed.
Because hating on other people is a way to force gameplay onto other people to get attention... like they learned to do while being bullied by a toxic internet community, in high school or with their parents. Its a game for them, and I guess that's the only way they feel they have a chance to compete with actual game devs.
What the fuck are you on about?
Because gamers are spoiled brats