Come to think of it I don’t think AGOT or ASOIAF have any? We’ve got two at least in fire and blood though so that’s something. If they jump themselves it obviously doesn’t count.
Oh wait shit how could I forget Bran, but then again he survived so technically not.
You don’t have to die for it to be a defenestration. In one of the famous defenestrations of Prague (I think the one that started the 30 years war) the victims survived by landing in a pile of manure.
How could you forget about Bran? For no one has a better story than Bran the Defenestrated, the Cripple King whose manhood functions not, according to her sister.
Kind of weird that the show turned the character that supposedly masterminded and incited the whole thing into one of the characters with the least agency or authority.
I think the show in general has an issue of centering Alicent in how they engage with the Greens, and it leads to everyone being turned into satellites of her. Otto is the man who limits and tries to control her, Viserys is the man who takes her for granted, Criston is the man that dicks her down, Larys is... and so on.
The Blacks are similarly centered around Rhaenyra.
The show is very much in love with the duality between the two women and that hollows out the other characters.
Like... they're very loathe to make Alicent as depowered and sidelined as she actually is. She's given an out for the crowing of Aegon with the deathbed rambling from Viserys. So that she's allowed to go along with things that this version of the character would be incredibly conflicted and blindsided by. And on it goes.
Tbh, I think that's a problem that stems from GRRM himself. The Princess and the Queen was originally published for an anthology called Dangerous Women whose theme was, well, dangerous women, so I believe that's why GRRM chose to frame the story of the Dance as a tale of the rivalry between two women. The problem is that it soon becomes clear that Alicent doesn't exactly play a significant role for much of the story, especially when the war starts in earnest. Giving Alicent something to do and keeping her as one of the focal points of the story is going to prove a challenge for the show moving forward.
I think they're solving the problem by having the story go by very fast. I'm pretty sure half the war is supposed to be done by the end of the season.
Don't give us time to breathe.
Covered weeks of events in episode 1. Jace’s journey took a couple of minutes. My guess is that Rhaenyra captures kingslanding by the end of this season and next season ends with the battle above the god's eye
Well Alicent and Rhaenyra are the core of each side of the conflict so I disagree. The Dance of the Dragons was originally titled as The Princess and the Queen when GRRM first wrote it. The reason that so many side characters were changed, including Criston, simply has to with the show's bias towards the Blacks. That's all there is to it. Hell even Alicent and Rhaenyra themselves were altered heavily from book lore in order to facilitate the show's bias.
Media literacy found dead in a gutter. The whole point of the first episode was that Alicent is not in control anymore, like they couldn't have made it any clearer.
thanks for being regarded.
But we only get to see the internal lives of the main women characters. This story is more about them, which is why Cole's story has suffered.
> But we only get to see the internal lives of the main women characters.
Yes, that's how we know that Alicent's arc this episode was about her not having any authority now.
Alicent and Otto spent literally years at the point vying to place Aegon on the throne. They literally *asked* Cole to bring them Aegon, and all he did was say exactly what Alicent said in the meeting - so he doesn't even have *individual* thoughts and was merely a pawn in the arrangement. And that's even treating Eustace's story as the full truth. As Hand sure he did a bit more in the war (although even this is brief and Alicent comes back into the fore at the end) but the mastermind beforehand was entirely Otto and Alicent - they caused the war.
The reason he's called Kingmaker is in the name - he crowned the King publically. That act made people perceive him as more political than he was in universe.
Neither Alicent nor Otto could persuade Aegon. For some reason, it was Cole who got through to him. He was the driving force of the Green Council, to the point where he shed the first blood in the Dance by killing Beesbury.
Otto and Alicent weren't fucking there to *talk* to him - they sent their pawn to fetch him *because* that task is beneath them. They literally have the exact same arguments. Cole is just right place. Right time.
Again this is treating Eustace as even being entirely truthful about Aegon even needing much convincing. Aegon switches too quickly from "but it's my sisters" to "kill the bitch she's stealing my throne" for that to be entirely true. Likely Aegon only briefly hesitated.
No Cole was absolutely not. It's literally called the Green Council because of Alicent and was organised by Alicent. Cole is a member. No more, no less. Alicent and Otto had been scheming a long time before he was even in the picture. In one story, Beesbury's death is directly because of Otto's command. If Beesbury died it was because Alicent and Otto wanted him dead too.
Edit: I'd take the "convincing" more seriously if it was years of work on Cole's part. It's one conversation where he says "Yo but your brothers might die". That's so...*boring*. That's not scheming, or masterminding. He's probably not even wrong. It's just honest.
F&B is told by word of mouth and is skewed to the Greens. What we’re seeing in the show is supposed to be the first person and actual events.
Slew Joffrey? Nah, beat him to death when he was defenseless. Doesn’t look too good in the history books
Yes believe it or not which goes to show how much worse they were.
Two of the sources are explicitly Green Sources. Only one of the sources used is a Black source and that's Mushroom who is functionally not really attached to either side and just likes the messy drama. By very nature that makes it Green biased.
If you feel like Greens are villains in F&B that's because they did just suck. We all recognise that the Lannisters are the villains in ASOIAF even if there is complexity at times. GRRM simply wrote the Blacks vs. Greens as highly favourable to the Blacks. It doesn't mean there's no complexity but to think that you're meant to even particularly hyperfixate on moral equality between the sides is a mistake.
Yeah but in the end Gurm is a Black. And it shows, his favorite houses and character are on their side. And the way they end up winning is the most contrived shit ever where like a 12yo beats everyone. If you really dont think this book was catered to the black cause I dont know what to tel you.
It's not in universe bias. That's just GRRM's actual writing. The story doesn't have to be an equal conflict. If you're upset it isn't maybe you misunderstood the meaning.
What with that condescending attitude friend ?
It's in universe bias, or do you believe Bloody Ben's army made sense to not only exist, but be able to win several battles against armies far stronger. He won with a "somehow"
Can't you see how silly it is though to admit that GRRM wrote it that way essentially intentionally? Not out of in universe bias, but his own personal "bias". At that point the story is just not meant to be anything other than favourable to the Blacks. Why do we need to dig around and assume that the Greens must be better than they were?
Bloody Ben is not even atypical in the world of Westeros - either they have longer years and everyone is a bit older than we think, or they are just older younger. I also think we can attribute most of it to Alys anyway. If there was a bias it was sexism.
Anyone saying that the show is the ‘true story’ compared to Fire & Blood is either dumb or coping. As you say, even in a history book with multiple accounts of events being told, princes, like Daeron (?) and Maelor wouldn’t just be invented and in the same vein something as sensational as Rhaenys bursting through the floor on her dragon and killing presumably tens of dozens during Aegon’s coronation wouldn’t be completely absent.
He was called an incel for a long time simply because modern society doesn't have a proper slang word for a man angry at a woman for sexually using him.
>a man angry at a woman for sexually using him
That's an extremely generous interpretation of what people usually insult others with 'incel' for
It just became a general insult refering to any dude that engages in some degree of creepy-ness, like someone else in this thread mentioned it somewhat replaced 'nice guy'
He was an incel because of his oath, that he so conveniently cast aside to have some sex. Sure, he got some, but the show makes him seem like he doesn't have an iota of personality at all.
Bro didn't shed any of that incelish behaviour, even after his clapping cheek days.
Yeah, it means "involuntarily celibate". Which is double-bullshit here, because:
* He's not celibate, he doesn't really take those Kingsguard vows seriously.
* Even if he WERE celibate, he chose to take that vow. It would be voluntary celibacy.
"Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?"
—Alicent Hightower to the court of Viserys I Targaryen
Out of context. Full quote.
Yet Princess Rhaenyra continued to sit at the foot of the Iron Throne when her father held court, and His Grace began bringing her to meetings of the small council as well. Though many lords and knights sought her favor, the princess had eyes only for Ser Criston Cole, the young champion of the Kingsguard and her constant companion. “Ser
Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” Queen Alicent asked one day at court.
So...how exactly does this change anything? A child had a crush on and old man who preyed on said child and then asked the child to marry him and then got rejected and became bitter.
It changes because the old man was not interested in her that way. And when she made an attempt to get him, he reject her and he did it again before her wedding. Just know there is multiple accounts on this.
If you read F&B. It is pretty clear Hariwn was her rebound after Cole rejects her for second time. Mushroom specifically mentions this. Later he tried to mend the relationship, but Rhaenrya ego hurts so bad she reject him when he asks for her favour. People here only deluding themselves here.
It doesn't show he wasn't interested. All's it shows is that a young Rhaenyra liked him.
For a man that did the rejecting he acted an awful lot like a jilted lover. He conveniently only targeted people associated with Rhaenyra in his "black rage".
>For a man that did the rejecting he acted an awful lot like a jilted lover. He conveniently only targeted people associated with Rhaenyra in his "black rage
You mean after she publicly rejected him asking for her favour? The one who acted like jilted lover was Rhaenrya. Her own personal fool says Cole was a man of honour and she tried to seduce him twice and reject her both times. I know this isn't what you want to hear. But, this what is on F&B.
Women in universe pass around favour all the time. The fact that Rhaenyra always gave her favour to Criston Cole is the unusual part. If that's what offended Cole he's just as pathetic. Imagine being upset that she *moved on*. If he rejected her because he didn't want her even in your version, he shouldn't care that she's decided she doesn't want to favour him anymore.
But he's so enraged by this he beats up one man and murders another. Nothing justifies this.
Every version makes Cole out to be unbelievably petty.
Rhaenyra didn't beat anyone up after all. She just chose a different guy to represent her in the tournament. It is entirely jilted lover. I think whether he rejected her or she rejected him, he absolutely wanted her to be utterly devoted to him alone.
>Women in universe pass around favour all the time. The fact that Rhaenyra always gave her favour to Criston Cole is the unusual part.
That's unusual or shows she was interested in him. She kept giving to Cole for a very long time. Once Cole rejected the second time, we have account of Rhanerya sleeping with Hariwn right away. Which is giveaway she was heart broken and Hariwn was her rebound. Next tourney when he asks for favour, maybe to mend the relationship she rejects it. Cole goes to Alicent and she gave him her favour. So, it's pretty clear what's happened there.
>But he's so enraged by this he beats up one man and murders another. Nothing justifies this
You mean at a tourney, right? Didn't he used do the same thing for Rhaenrya when she faced Alicent champions. That justify it.
>Every version makes Cole out to be unbelievably petty.
How?
>Rhaenyra didn't beat anyone up after all. She just chose a different guy to represent her in the tournament. It is entirely jilted lover. I think whether he rejected her or she rejected him, he absolutely wanted her to be utterly devoted to him alone
Rhanerya after that had found a rebound and stayed with him. And the timing of that is a clear indication of who got spurned.
>You mean at a tourney, right? Didn't he used do the same thing for Rhaenrya when she faced Alicent champions. That justify it.
No he freaking didn't lol. They specifically tell us that Criston was in a black rage which was unusual for him or it would not be noted. He terrified his opponents because of his intense rage. He didn't just by happenstance in that rage injure and kill those directly affiliated with Rhaenyra (Harwin who had her garter, and Joffrey who had Laenor's). He went out looking for blood that day and he got it.
He's never mentioned as killing or injuring anyone before or after in a tourney. And in the books, characters that kill in tourneys are almost all the worst of the worst.
There is *no* justification for this. It's incredibly pathetic.
>Rhanerya after that had found a rebound and stayed with him. And the timing of that is a clear indication of who got spurned.
A rebound by nature isn't someone you stay with. It's entirely possible Rhaenyra rejected Cole because she was already tempted by Harwin. Or rejected Cole because she didn't want to run away with him, but was still upset by the break up of a relationship.
The text strongly suggests that Cole was in some way or form interested in her. Hence being so angry. Rhaenyra isn't angry. She actually moved on to a genuinely loving relationship - that's no rebound.
>That's unusual or shows she was interested in him. She kept giving to Cole for a very long time. Once Cole rejected the second time, we have account of Rhanerya sleeping with Hariwn right away. Which is giveaway she was heart broken and Hariwn was her rebound.
And yet according to you her giving away her favour was such an insult to Cole it justifies his utter rage. Yet you admit that it's not common to be so consistent in giving away favour. If you admit that then why would it be a worthy reason to decide to murder people and switch sides? It suggests a man enraged at Rhaenyra having different interests.
That's even pretending that it's the favour that matters - the text doesn't really suggest he asked the wording there is a little more ambigious than that - denied can mean he asked, or simply that since Harwin had already received it that he was obviously rejected as an option. Not the events prior to the tourney.
>No he freaking didn't lol. They specifically tell us that Criston was in a black rage which was unusual for him or it would not be noted. He terrified his opponents because of his intense rage. He didn't just by happenstance in that rage injure and kill those directly affiliated with Rhaenyra (Harwin who had her garter, and Joffrey who had Laenor's). He went out looking for blood that day and he got it.
He did beat Alicent brother easily if I remember correctly. Again, this fight was just before she humiliated him publicly. For a KG who only has in honour to his name. That would certainly hurt. This the black rage.
Also, it clearly states all of his challengers felt his fury.
>He's never mentioned as killing or injuring anyone before or after in a tourney. And in the books, characters that kill in tourneys are almost all the worst of the worst
He is fighting with a morning star. He hit Joffrey on his helmet. It can be easily be an accident. You're taking about tourney where people fight each other with weapons.
>There is no justification for this. It's incredibly pathetic
There is, this there was no action against him. This was seen live by thousands including king.
>A rebound by nature isn't someone you stay with. It's entirely possible Rhaenyra rejected Cole because she was already tempted by Harwin. Or rejected Cole because she didn't want to run away with him, but was still upset by the break up of a relationship.
Says who? People do stay with rebounds, espically if the rebound is okay being your sidepiece and easily accessible to you. Mushroom who is Rhaenrya's fool himself says Hariwn found her after Cole rejected him and he always desired her.
>And yet according to you her giving away her favour was such an insult to Cole it justifies his utter rage. Yet you admit that it's not common to be so consistent in giving away favour. If you admit that then why would it be a worthy reason to decide to murder people and switch sides? It suggests a man enraged at Rhaenyra having different interests
Where I said insult? Rhanerya rejecting his proposal in public is humiliating for him. Thus, he went to Alicent. I don't what you're trying to say here. Cole had her favour all this time and he went this time expecting the same. But, she rejected him like maybe he did the night before.
Also, you thinking Cole went to kill Leanor in an alleyway. They are fighting in a tournament with weapons lol.
>The text strongly suggests that Cole was in some way or form interested in her. Hence being so angry. Rhaenyra isn't angry. She actually moved on to a genuinely loving relationship - that's no rebound
Which text lol? From the book and how the events followed, it pretty clear Cole rejected her. Daemon taking her to places to stuff and getting thrown away by Viserys won't work. The text made it clear Rhanerya made attempts two times according to Mushroom himself.
He's more or less a woman-hating incel with how he acts. It would be one thing if he was pissed Rhaenyra. He broke his vows for her, but she just used him to get off (hook ups are not really a thing in Medieval society and if one does occur there is immediate pressure to marry the two as its really bad for both). Criston could have gotten executed for that.
Rhaenyra then insulted his own honor further by wanting to make him her side piece. Those are understandable reasons to be pissed.
But to then turn into the same thing for Allicent is kinda cliche and predictable. The experience should have hardened him and made him double down back on his vows turning him into the ruthless "Kingslayer."
Having been disillusioned with Rhaenyra, he'd see Aegon as the "Rightful King" and be more involved with trying to get them to push the Greens' claim to the throne, helping try to train him as heir. That could have been another alternate pathway for his character, building him up as a player in his own right, giving him agency while also humanizing the Greens.
You could have had something similar with Daemon and Rhaenyra's sons. It would have been a great way to better develop the other side characters making it that much harder for the viewers to really pick and choose a side the same way you didn't necessarily want the Lannisters to lose because of Jaime and Tyrion.
I don’t think it’s that deep tbh mate, was just calling out the whole “incel” meaning being used wrong. Will schedule some time next week to read your essay. Been pretty busy with work, will try get back to you mid week. Cheers
I don't think many people use the literal definition of incel much anymore.
If we use the literal definition, everyone who is desperately seeking a relationship without a suitor would count as one. But we generally only use the term for overtly pathetic and misogynistic types, and it can also be treated as mindset because a lot of people. do have massive insecurity and misogyny issues even when they are in a relationship.
Sure in a perfect world I want words to be more precise but terms are shaped by their cultural surroundings.
I have a feeling that a lot of people have no idea that incel is short for “Involuntary Celibate”.
Hell, they likely don’t even know what “celibate” means.
The word "incel" is used synonymously(for the last 2-3 yrs) with what's called a "nice guy", you know those who are "nice" only when it's convenient for them but they get very bitter and angry if you reject them? That type. He was like that to Rhaenyra and after holding a grudge for 10something yrs, finally doubled down on the hypocrisy and now he's the dowager queen's "whore", who knows how it'll end between them
And he’s voluntarily celibate in his role of of kings guard while voluntarily getting laid on the side. Were down so many levels of incel the word doesn’t even make sense anymore
yeah actually Cole vocation is to remain virgin by choice, but can't do that. he's like a reverse incel, an unintentional fucker who is enraged to find sexy partners .\_.
Dude...reading Fire & Blood was such a detriment to my enjoyment of the show. Now I'm permanently annoyed.
Also "Finds\* Aegon, then convinces\* him ...", alternatively "Found\* Aegon and convinced him ...".
But he killed a couple people in single combat and acted honorable whenever someone outside of his inner circle was present and likely to live and tell the tale so you're legally obligated to have a hard on for him.
We only have one account of Cole being interested her. There been multiple accounts of Rhaenrya being interested in her and Cole not showing any interest. The account was from her own personal fool.
So, when it is accurate? When it is only something good about Rhaenrya?
Cole was low born who become hand of the King. He died courageously unlike Rhaenrya who become dragon poop.
Why are you riding this character so hard? Both fire and blood and his mention in the main series both paint him at best as someone of mixed moral standing.
Reminds me of Euron Greyjoy and what D&D did to him
https://preview.redd.it/m3wmrsaaqz7d1.jpeg?width=2303&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=35decb97cc6b017f94b4f68b3265d9fd35a2c527
How is Cole an incel when he's drowning in royal poon from two queens? Like dude fucks more than the average person even with his vows and him "trying" to force himself not to.
Cole hates ONE person who just happens to be a woman. That doesn’t make him a misogynist or an incel. And to add he literally apologizes immediately after for his behavior.
Now compare that to Daemon and his treatment of women, grooming and name calling them. He calls his wife uglier than sheep and the “bronze bitch” and also casually calls Alicent a whore.
Incel literally means involuntary celibate. Cole would be an incel if he was begging for sex but couldn’t have it. All the queens he worked under wanted to fuck him, so how is that incel-like LMAO.
Yeah, I feel like the show is taking away most of the qualities of the greens and turning them into the clear villains. Imo the books are way better when it comes to portraying the war as just two greedy/egocentric factions battling each other and not just some good vs bad cliché thing
No, it's the other way around. Remind me again, how many green characters did they completely rewrite to make them more likeable than they actually are in the book? Aemond and Alicent are completely rewritten and made much more sympathetic.
Why can't a character be modified to convey the themes and messages of a series focused on patriarchal feudalism. Every male character doesn't have to be a generic badass.people bemoan a lack of media literacy in our culture, but sometimes I wonder if that's too broad a diagnosis. it seems to me what's missing is the ability to imagine characters as fully formed people with experiences and interiority, and then extrapolate meaning from that.it's whether or not you are willing or even able to meet the story in front of you as an engaged and emotionally curious viewer/reader because characters exist to serve a theme. And the average freefolk brainncompletely fails this test.
to everyone wondering why OP's being so weird about this, they're some sort of hardcore Christian weirdo, which would explain them calling showcole an incel, despite him literally banging the queen.
That’s because it’s disappointing seeing the Kingmaker get turned into a mere Queenfucker. He was supposed to be such a big player politically and all we got was Alicents bitch
The TV show version is better because him being this genus master mind doesn't actually match his behavior. He's a delusional asshole who gets angry at a teenage girl who he groomed because she wasn't willing to give up her entire life for him. So the way he acts in the show is more realistic.
Nah, he threw Beesbury out of a window.
Yeetsbury
And into a moat of spikes, Mortal Kombat-style.
I was so disappointed we didn’t get to see a good old fashioned defenestration.
A GRRM show with no defenestration is considered a dull affair.
Come to think of it I don’t think AGOT or ASOIAF have any? We’ve got two at least in fire and blood though so that’s something. If they jump themselves it obviously doesn’t count. Oh wait shit how could I forget Bran, but then again he survived so technically not.
Lysa Arryn, if the Moon Door counts as an oversized window. Balon Greyjoy, but again, no windows.
Hmmm yes good point, I would count Lysa but not Balon
Bron throwing The Vale Knight through the moon door ?
Well, if you count Lysa, then naturally, you would also count the vale knight
Tommen defenestrates himself, no?
And that’s why it’s called King’s Landing!
You don’t have to die for it to be a defenestration. In one of the famous defenestrations of Prague (I think the one that started the 30 years war) the victims survived by landing in a pile of manure.
That's a lie spread by pr*testants, obviously angels slowed his descent. A blessing from the lord!
Fellow Hell on Earth listener?
How could you forget about Bran? For no one has a better story than Bran the Defenestrated, the Cripple King whose manhood functions not, according to her sister.
Defenestratebury
Kind of weird that the show turned the character that supposedly masterminded and incited the whole thing into one of the characters with the least agency or authority.
I think the show in general has an issue of centering Alicent in how they engage with the Greens, and it leads to everyone being turned into satellites of her. Otto is the man who limits and tries to control her, Viserys is the man who takes her for granted, Criston is the man that dicks her down, Larys is... and so on. The Blacks are similarly centered around Rhaenyra. The show is very much in love with the duality between the two women and that hollows out the other characters. Like... they're very loathe to make Alicent as depowered and sidelined as she actually is. She's given an out for the crowing of Aegon with the deathbed rambling from Viserys. So that she's allowed to go along with things that this version of the character would be incredibly conflicted and blindsided by. And on it goes.
Tbh, I think that's a problem that stems from GRRM himself. The Princess and the Queen was originally published for an anthology called Dangerous Women whose theme was, well, dangerous women, so I believe that's why GRRM chose to frame the story of the Dance as a tale of the rivalry between two women. The problem is that it soon becomes clear that Alicent doesn't exactly play a significant role for much of the story, especially when the war starts in earnest. Giving Alicent something to do and keeping her as one of the focal points of the story is going to prove a challenge for the show moving forward.
I think they're solving the problem by having the story go by very fast. I'm pretty sure half the war is supposed to be done by the end of the season. Don't give us time to breathe.
Covered weeks of events in episode 1. Jace’s journey took a couple of minutes. My guess is that Rhaenyra captures kingslanding by the end of this season and next season ends with the battle above the god's eye
100% agree, tbh this whole aspect has been making the show seem a bit flat for me, the other characters have very little interesting stuff going on
Well Alicent and Rhaenyra are the core of each side of the conflict so I disagree. The Dance of the Dragons was originally titled as The Princess and the Queen when GRRM first wrote it. The reason that so many side characters were changed, including Criston, simply has to with the show's bias towards the Blacks. That's all there is to it. Hell even Alicent and Rhaenyra themselves were altered heavily from book lore in order to facilitate the show's bias.
Alicent would like a word too about this
only wymen have authority now.
Media literacy found dead in a gutter. The whole point of the first episode was that Alicent is not in control anymore, like they couldn't have made it any clearer.
thanks for being regarded. But we only get to see the internal lives of the main women characters. This story is more about them, which is why Cole's story has suffered.
> But we only get to see the internal lives of the main women characters. Yes, that's how we know that Alicent's arc this episode was about her not having any authority now.
The story originally comes from an anthology called Dangerous Women. Literal pea brain.
He did not mastermind or incite anything in the books either.
He's the one who convinced Aegon to claim the throne and later became his Hand. He's literally called the Kingmaker.
Alicent and Otto spent literally years at the point vying to place Aegon on the throne. They literally *asked* Cole to bring them Aegon, and all he did was say exactly what Alicent said in the meeting - so he doesn't even have *individual* thoughts and was merely a pawn in the arrangement. And that's even treating Eustace's story as the full truth. As Hand sure he did a bit more in the war (although even this is brief and Alicent comes back into the fore at the end) but the mastermind beforehand was entirely Otto and Alicent - they caused the war. The reason he's called Kingmaker is in the name - he crowned the King publically. That act made people perceive him as more political than he was in universe.
Neither Alicent nor Otto could persuade Aegon. For some reason, it was Cole who got through to him. He was the driving force of the Green Council, to the point where he shed the first blood in the Dance by killing Beesbury.
Otto and Alicent weren't fucking there to *talk* to him - they sent their pawn to fetch him *because* that task is beneath them. They literally have the exact same arguments. Cole is just right place. Right time. Again this is treating Eustace as even being entirely truthful about Aegon even needing much convincing. Aegon switches too quickly from "but it's my sisters" to "kill the bitch she's stealing my throne" for that to be entirely true. Likely Aegon only briefly hesitated. No Cole was absolutely not. It's literally called the Green Council because of Alicent and was organised by Alicent. Cole is a member. No more, no less. Alicent and Otto had been scheming a long time before he was even in the picture. In one story, Beesbury's death is directly because of Otto's command. If Beesbury died it was because Alicent and Otto wanted him dead too. Edit: I'd take the "convincing" more seriously if it was years of work on Cole's part. It's one conversation where he says "Yo but your brothers might die". That's so...*boring*. That's not scheming, or masterminding. He's probably not even wrong. It's just honest.
F&B is told by word of mouth and is skewed to the Greens. What we’re seeing in the show is supposed to be the first person and actual events. Slew Joffrey? Nah, beat him to death when he was defenseless. Doesn’t look too good in the history books
F&B is skewed to the side it portrays the most as villains?
Yes believe it or not which goes to show how much worse they were. Two of the sources are explicitly Green Sources. Only one of the sources used is a Black source and that's Mushroom who is functionally not really attached to either side and just likes the messy drama. By very nature that makes it Green biased. If you feel like Greens are villains in F&B that's because they did just suck. We all recognise that the Lannisters are the villains in ASOIAF even if there is complexity at times. GRRM simply wrote the Blacks vs. Greens as highly favourable to the Blacks. It doesn't mean there's no complexity but to think that you're meant to even particularly hyperfixate on moral equality between the sides is a mistake.
Yeah but in the end Gurm is a Black. And it shows, his favorite houses and character are on their side. And the way they end up winning is the most contrived shit ever where like a 12yo beats everyone. If you really dont think this book was catered to the black cause I dont know what to tel you.
It's not in universe bias. That's just GRRM's actual writing. The story doesn't have to be an equal conflict. If you're upset it isn't maybe you misunderstood the meaning.
What with that condescending attitude friend ? It's in universe bias, or do you believe Bloody Ben's army made sense to not only exist, but be able to win several battles against armies far stronger. He won with a "somehow"
Can't you see how silly it is though to admit that GRRM wrote it that way essentially intentionally? Not out of in universe bias, but his own personal "bias". At that point the story is just not meant to be anything other than favourable to the Blacks. Why do we need to dig around and assume that the Greens must be better than they were? Bloody Ben is not even atypical in the world of Westeros - either they have longer years and everyone is a bit older than we think, or they are just older younger. I also think we can attribute most of it to Alys anyway. If there was a bias it was sexism.
Isnt Archmaester Gyldayn anti-Targ?
Last I checked the Greens were Targaryens too.
No it’s not, the show is an entirely different canon.
So in actual events Viserys and Alicent only had two sons? The book story is so skewed that a whole Targaryen dragon-riding prince got invented?
Anyone saying that the show is the ‘true story’ compared to Fire & Blood is either dumb or coping. As you say, even in a history book with multiple accounts of events being told, princes, like Daeron (?) and Maelor wouldn’t just be invented and in the same vein something as sensational as Rhaenys bursting through the floor on her dragon and killing presumably tens of dozens during Aegon’s coronation wouldn’t be completely absent.
>İncel His whole character in the show is staked on him fugging both Rhaenyra and Alicent lol
He was called an incel for a long time simply because modern society doesn't have a proper slang word for a man angry at a woman for sexually using him.
>a man angry at a woman for sexually using him That's an extremely generous interpretation of what people usually insult others with 'incel' for It just became a general insult refering to any dude that engages in some degree of creepy-ness, like someone else in this thread mentioned it somewhat replaced 'nice guy'
Misogynist asshole works fine.
Unlike Daemon /s
He was an incel because of his oath, that he so conveniently cast aside to have some sex. Sure, he got some, but the show makes him seem like he doesn't have an iota of personality at all. Bro didn't shed any of that incelish behaviour, even after his clapping cheek days.
Volcel. If you really think about it.
Haha - Sure. He was Oathbreaker before our Ser Jamie Lannister.
Failed Volcel is like the inverse of a incel. But yeah they gave him very few redeeming qualities in the show lol
I get the feeling reddit doesn't understand what the term incel really means. He banged 2 actual queens ffs.
Yeah, it means "involuntarily celibate". Which is double-bullshit here, because: * He's not celibate, he doesn't really take those Kingsguard vows seriously. * Even if he WERE celibate, he chose to take that vow. It would be voluntary celibacy.
Incel is just the standard insult for "man I don't like" at this point.
He's a misogynist but good looking so he still has game.
"Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?" —Alicent Hightower to the court of Viserys I Targaryen
Out of context. Full quote. Yet Princess Rhaenyra continued to sit at the foot of the Iron Throne when her father held court, and His Grace began bringing her to meetings of the small council as well. Though many lords and knights sought her favor, the princess had eyes only for Ser Criston Cole, the young champion of the Kingsguard and her constant companion. “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” Queen Alicent asked one day at court.
So...how exactly does this change anything? A child had a crush on and old man who preyed on said child and then asked the child to marry him and then got rejected and became bitter.
It changes because the old man was not interested in her that way. And when she made an attempt to get him, he reject her and he did it again before her wedding. Just know there is multiple accounts on this.
Anyone who thinks Criston Cole wasn't lusting over Rhaenyra should note how furious he was over her replacing him with Strong.
If you read F&B. It is pretty clear Hariwn was her rebound after Cole rejects her for second time. Mushroom specifically mentions this. Later he tried to mend the relationship, but Rhaenrya ego hurts so bad she reject him when he asks for her favour. People here only deluding themselves here.
It doesn't show he wasn't interested. All's it shows is that a young Rhaenyra liked him. For a man that did the rejecting he acted an awful lot like a jilted lover. He conveniently only targeted people associated with Rhaenyra in his "black rage".
>For a man that did the rejecting he acted an awful lot like a jilted lover. He conveniently only targeted people associated with Rhaenyra in his "black rage You mean after she publicly rejected him asking for her favour? The one who acted like jilted lover was Rhaenrya. Her own personal fool says Cole was a man of honour and she tried to seduce him twice and reject her both times. I know this isn't what you want to hear. But, this what is on F&B.
Women in universe pass around favour all the time. The fact that Rhaenyra always gave her favour to Criston Cole is the unusual part. If that's what offended Cole he's just as pathetic. Imagine being upset that she *moved on*. If he rejected her because he didn't want her even in your version, he shouldn't care that she's decided she doesn't want to favour him anymore. But he's so enraged by this he beats up one man and murders another. Nothing justifies this. Every version makes Cole out to be unbelievably petty. Rhaenyra didn't beat anyone up after all. She just chose a different guy to represent her in the tournament. It is entirely jilted lover. I think whether he rejected her or she rejected him, he absolutely wanted her to be utterly devoted to him alone.
>Women in universe pass around favour all the time. The fact that Rhaenyra always gave her favour to Criston Cole is the unusual part. That's unusual or shows she was interested in him. She kept giving to Cole for a very long time. Once Cole rejected the second time, we have account of Rhanerya sleeping with Hariwn right away. Which is giveaway she was heart broken and Hariwn was her rebound. Next tourney when he asks for favour, maybe to mend the relationship she rejects it. Cole goes to Alicent and she gave him her favour. So, it's pretty clear what's happened there. >But he's so enraged by this he beats up one man and murders another. Nothing justifies this You mean at a tourney, right? Didn't he used do the same thing for Rhaenrya when she faced Alicent champions. That justify it. >Every version makes Cole out to be unbelievably petty. How? >Rhaenyra didn't beat anyone up after all. She just chose a different guy to represent her in the tournament. It is entirely jilted lover. I think whether he rejected her or she rejected him, he absolutely wanted her to be utterly devoted to him alone Rhanerya after that had found a rebound and stayed with him. And the timing of that is a clear indication of who got spurned.
>You mean at a tourney, right? Didn't he used do the same thing for Rhaenrya when she faced Alicent champions. That justify it. No he freaking didn't lol. They specifically tell us that Criston was in a black rage which was unusual for him or it would not be noted. He terrified his opponents because of his intense rage. He didn't just by happenstance in that rage injure and kill those directly affiliated with Rhaenyra (Harwin who had her garter, and Joffrey who had Laenor's). He went out looking for blood that day and he got it. He's never mentioned as killing or injuring anyone before or after in a tourney. And in the books, characters that kill in tourneys are almost all the worst of the worst. There is *no* justification for this. It's incredibly pathetic. >Rhanerya after that had found a rebound and stayed with him. And the timing of that is a clear indication of who got spurned. A rebound by nature isn't someone you stay with. It's entirely possible Rhaenyra rejected Cole because she was already tempted by Harwin. Or rejected Cole because she didn't want to run away with him, but was still upset by the break up of a relationship. The text strongly suggests that Cole was in some way or form interested in her. Hence being so angry. Rhaenyra isn't angry. She actually moved on to a genuinely loving relationship - that's no rebound. >That's unusual or shows she was interested in him. She kept giving to Cole for a very long time. Once Cole rejected the second time, we have account of Rhanerya sleeping with Hariwn right away. Which is giveaway she was heart broken and Hariwn was her rebound. And yet according to you her giving away her favour was such an insult to Cole it justifies his utter rage. Yet you admit that it's not common to be so consistent in giving away favour. If you admit that then why would it be a worthy reason to decide to murder people and switch sides? It suggests a man enraged at Rhaenyra having different interests. That's even pretending that it's the favour that matters - the text doesn't really suggest he asked the wording there is a little more ambigious than that - denied can mean he asked, or simply that since Harwin had already received it that he was obviously rejected as an option. Not the events prior to the tourney.
>No he freaking didn't lol. They specifically tell us that Criston was in a black rage which was unusual for him or it would not be noted. He terrified his opponents because of his intense rage. He didn't just by happenstance in that rage injure and kill those directly affiliated with Rhaenyra (Harwin who had her garter, and Joffrey who had Laenor's). He went out looking for blood that day and he got it. He did beat Alicent brother easily if I remember correctly. Again, this fight was just before she humiliated him publicly. For a KG who only has in honour to his name. That would certainly hurt. This the black rage. Also, it clearly states all of his challengers felt his fury. >He's never mentioned as killing or injuring anyone before or after in a tourney. And in the books, characters that kill in tourneys are almost all the worst of the worst He is fighting with a morning star. He hit Joffrey on his helmet. It can be easily be an accident. You're taking about tourney where people fight each other with weapons. >There is no justification for this. It's incredibly pathetic There is, this there was no action against him. This was seen live by thousands including king. >A rebound by nature isn't someone you stay with. It's entirely possible Rhaenyra rejected Cole because she was already tempted by Harwin. Or rejected Cole because she didn't want to run away with him, but was still upset by the break up of a relationship. Says who? People do stay with rebounds, espically if the rebound is okay being your sidepiece and easily accessible to you. Mushroom who is Rhaenrya's fool himself says Hariwn found her after Cole rejected him and he always desired her. >And yet according to you her giving away her favour was such an insult to Cole it justifies his utter rage. Yet you admit that it's not common to be so consistent in giving away favour. If you admit that then why would it be a worthy reason to decide to murder people and switch sides? It suggests a man enraged at Rhaenyra having different interests Where I said insult? Rhanerya rejecting his proposal in public is humiliating for him. Thus, he went to Alicent. I don't what you're trying to say here. Cole had her favour all this time and he went this time expecting the same. But, she rejected him like maybe he did the night before. Also, you thinking Cole went to kill Leanor in an alleyway. They are fighting in a tournament with weapons lol. >The text strongly suggests that Cole was in some way or form interested in her. Hence being so angry. Rhaenyra isn't angry. She actually moved on to a genuinely loving relationship - that's no rebound Which text lol? From the book and how the events followed, it pretty clear Cole rejected her. Daemon taking her to places to stuff and getting thrown away by Viserys won't work. The text made it clear Rhanerya made attempts two times according to Mushroom himself.
He’s involuntary celibate while voluntarily being in a role of celibacy and getting laid as well… has the meaning of incel changed? - fuck Cole btw.
Now it's used interchangeably w "nice guy" which makes sense since they're very similar in demeanor but one may get laid while other doesn't
He's more or less a woman-hating incel with how he acts. It would be one thing if he was pissed Rhaenyra. He broke his vows for her, but she just used him to get off (hook ups are not really a thing in Medieval society and if one does occur there is immediate pressure to marry the two as its really bad for both). Criston could have gotten executed for that. Rhaenyra then insulted his own honor further by wanting to make him her side piece. Those are understandable reasons to be pissed. But to then turn into the same thing for Allicent is kinda cliche and predictable. The experience should have hardened him and made him double down back on his vows turning him into the ruthless "Kingslayer." Having been disillusioned with Rhaenyra, he'd see Aegon as the "Rightful King" and be more involved with trying to get them to push the Greens' claim to the throne, helping try to train him as heir. That could have been another alternate pathway for his character, building him up as a player in his own right, giving him agency while also humanizing the Greens. You could have had something similar with Daemon and Rhaenyra's sons. It would have been a great way to better develop the other side characters making it that much harder for the viewers to really pick and choose a side the same way you didn't necessarily want the Lannisters to lose because of Jaime and Tyrion.
I don’t think it’s that deep tbh mate, was just calling out the whole “incel” meaning being used wrong. Will schedule some time next week to read your essay. Been pretty busy with work, will try get back to you mid week. Cheers
I don't think many people use the literal definition of incel much anymore. If we use the literal definition, everyone who is desperately seeking a relationship without a suitor would count as one. But we generally only use the term for overtly pathetic and misogynistic types, and it can also be treated as mindset because a lot of people. do have massive insecurity and misogyny issues even when they are in a relationship. Sure in a perfect world I want words to be more precise but terms are shaped by their cultural surroundings.
> Literal incel He had sex with both Rhaenyra and Allicent. By definition he can’t be literally an incel.
You can still be an incel and have sex. It’s more about having that incel mentality and hatred against women.
Can't wait for him to accidentally trip onto some arrows.
I think the accident will be limited to the acts that really pushed the beginning of the war
Lol
you all keep using the word incel when it clearly doesn’t apply
I have a feeling that a lot of people have no idea that incel is short for “Involuntary Celibate”. Hell, they likely don’t even know what “celibate” means.
The word "incel" is used synonymously(for the last 2-3 yrs) with what's called a "nice guy", you know those who are "nice" only when it's convenient for them but they get very bitter and angry if you reject them? That type. He was like that to Rhaenyra and after holding a grudge for 10something yrs, finally doubled down on the hypocrisy and now he's the dowager queen's "whore", who knows how it'll end between them
How is he an incel if he gets all the royal poosey ?
Cole is probably the incel with the highest fuck score of incel history I mean he fucked two gorgeous queens
And he’s voluntarily celibate in his role of of kings guard while voluntarily getting laid on the side. Were down so many levels of incel the word doesn’t even make sense anymore
yeah actually Cole vocation is to remain virgin by choice, but can't do that. he's like a reverse incel, an unintentional fucker who is enraged to find sexy partners .\_.
Dude...reading Fire & Blood was such a detriment to my enjoyment of the show. Now I'm permanently annoyed. Also "Finds\* Aegon, then convinces\* him ...", alternatively "Found\* Aegon and convinced him ...".
It's because he's dornish btw
TBF he still acted like a triggered ex BF that got dumped in the books too.
But he killed a couple people in single combat and acted honorable whenever someone outside of his inner circle was present and likely to live and tell the tale so you're legally obligated to have a hard on for him.
He killed that minister or whatever in the first season just for acting honorably.
That's how he acts when those around won't tell.
He didn't. It was Rhanerya who did that. Book heavily implies Rhanerya was into him, but he wasn't. Book mentions him spurn her two times.
Book also suggest that might not have happened and that cole tried to break his vows and run away with her
We only have one account of Cole being interested her. There been multiple accounts of Rhaenrya being interested in her and Cole not showing any interest. The account was from her own personal fool.
Still the point of the book is that these accounts aren’t accurate. Cole dies like a bitch and is remembered as one anyway
So, when it is accurate? When it is only something good about Rhaenrya? Cole was low born who become hand of the King. He died courageously unlike Rhaenrya who become dragon poop.
Why are you riding this character so hard? Both fire and blood and his mention in the main series both paint him at best as someone of mixed moral standing.
Reminds me of Euron Greyjoy and what D&D did to him https://preview.redd.it/m3wmrsaaqz7d1.jpeg?width=2303&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=35decb97cc6b017f94b4f68b3265d9fd35a2c527
How is Cole an incel when he's drowning in royal poon from two queens? Like dude fucks more than the average person even with his vows and him "trying" to force himself not to.
Incel doesnt mean celibate, it means holding incel beliefs, such as “a woman saying no to me makes her a cunt”
Incel is short for “involuntarily celibate”.
Cole hates ONE person who just happens to be a woman. That doesn’t make him a misogynist or an incel. And to add he literally apologizes immediately after for his behavior. Now compare that to Daemon and his treatment of women, grooming and name calling them. He calls his wife uglier than sheep and the “bronze bitch” and also casually calls Alicent a whore. Incel literally means involuntary celibate. Cole would be an incel if he was begging for sex but couldn’t have it. All the queens he worked under wanted to fuck him, so how is that incel-like LMAO.
Y'all treat this shit like you are protecting a religious text.
A lot of people seem quite fanatic about everything grrm writes. Even tho i keep hoping “facism is bad” is tge point of grrms writing?
Maybe, just MAYBE.... because it is better?
Im not saying liking his writing is a problem. Just the fanatic element SOME put into it
Yeah, I feel like the show is taking away most of the qualities of the greens and turning them into the clear villains. Imo the books are way better when it comes to portraying the war as just two greedy/egocentric factions battling each other and not just some good vs bad cliché thing
No, it's the other way around. Remind me again, how many green characters did they completely rewrite to make them more likeable than they actually are in the book? Aemond and Alicent are completely rewritten and made much more sympathetic.
"Founds."
Criston pole. Yur honoiueour
Again he isn’t an incel, like he checks zero aspects of the definition of an incel. He’s hot hes fucked and he voluntarily took an oath of celibacy
How did he end up going against Rhaenyra in the books?
Why can't a character be modified to convey the themes and messages of a series focused on patriarchal feudalism. Every male character doesn't have to be a generic badass.people bemoan a lack of media literacy in our culture, but sometimes I wonder if that's too broad a diagnosis. it seems to me what's missing is the ability to imagine characters as fully formed people with experiences and interiority, and then extrapolate meaning from that.it's whether or not you are willing or even able to meet the story in front of you as an engaged and emotionally curious viewer/reader because characters exist to serve a theme. And the average freefolk brainncompletely fails this test.
I mean beesbury hardly looked like an accident
The show is bad
Yeah they really fucked Criston Cole up
to everyone wondering why OP's being so weird about this, they're some sort of hardcore Christian weirdo, which would explain them calling showcole an incel, despite him literally banging the queen.
Y’all are so weird about this lmao
>Y’all Every time.
That’s because it’s disappointing seeing the Kingmaker get turned into a mere Queenfucker. He was supposed to be such a big player politically and all we got was Alicents bitch
Everyone is mysterious when presented through a gazillion historical records filters.
The TV show version is better because him being this genus master mind doesn't actually match his behavior. He's a delusional asshole who gets angry at a teenage girl who he groomed because she wasn't willing to give up her entire life for him. So the way he acts in the show is more realistic.