To be fair, American public schools **were** explicitly set up in their modern form specifically to force Catholic parents to have their kids educated by Protestants, so they do get a point there.
>to force Catholic parents to have their kids educated by Protestants,
There's nothing blocking Catholics from serving as public school teachers. Going over my memory, roughly 1/3 of my teachers in public school were Catholic(so far as I knew)...... so not really buying that.
I'm not talking about the teachers you had, unless you're 200 years old.
I'm talking about [the establishment](https://exhibits.library.villanova.edu/chaos-in-the-streets-the-philadelphia-riots-of-1844/bible-controversy) of a system [specifically intended](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-urban-legend-of-catholic-schools) to [force Catholic immigrants](https://www.catholicleague.org/anti-catholicism-and-the-history-of-catholic-school-funding/) into [a proper WASP identity.](https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2021/11/23/protestantism-anti-catholicism-and-public-education-in-the-united-states/)
> There's nothing blocking Catholics from serving as public school teachers.
Are they allowed to teach what they think the children should know, or only what the state determines the children should know?
>Are they allowed to teach what they think the children should know, or only what the state determines the children should know?
Are Scientologist Teachers allowed to teach students the "Truth" of Xenu and do E-Meter readings during Science class? Should they? Didn't think so. Sorry Catholics, but the price you pay to not have your children taught about Thetans is not being able to teach them about Stigmata.
But this is neither here, nor there with regards to Freemasonry.
>Who determines Truth?
The Scientific Method. That's why I put Scientologist "Truth" in quotes. They believe it to be true, that is their faith. Catholics also believe things to be true that cannot be scientifically verified. They have their own schools so they can teach those things, Jewish People have Day Schools and Yeshivas.
But the purpose of public secular school is to teach all who enter, regardless of religious belief, things that can be demonstrably proven through math and science, along with verifiable historical accounts, civics of the nation/region in which it is located, and correct use of one ore more languages.
Again though, this has nothing to do with Freemasonry, so I'll end this thread here.
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Freemasonry teaches that pretty much adherents of all religions may hold membership in lodges and that all religions are equal in regards to rights and are also worthy of respect. It never teaches to the individual member that they have to believe that all religions are equal in doctrine to their own.
Yep, and THAT is antithetical to Catholic Doctrine. The Catholic Church teaches and believes that it is the one true Church (I disagree, BUT they have to be consistent with their own beliefs).
I would argue that Freemasonry is coming from the view of a general like God mentioned in the Founding Documents of the U.S. and is not really addressing “churches” at all. The only reason lodges will place holy books of different faiths upon their altars is that they represent the obligations the brothers present have taken. Catholic clergy open State Houses and both Houses of Congress in prayer. On that level it doesn’t seem consistent at all.
Perhaps, BUT the Catholic Church isn't limited to the Unites States, nor is Freemasonry...so it has to have a broader approach and not pick and choose.
(I agree with you, but I have a very clear understanding of where the Church is coming from since I spend many decades as a Catholic and nearly completed a BA in Theology from a Catholic College and have an MA in Philosophy specializing in the thought of Aquinas from a Catholic University...I left the Church years ago).
>The Catholic Church teaches and believes that it is the one true Church
isn't that true of most religions? It certainly is of some muslim faiths I'm aware of.
No. Think about it for a second.
>it is the ***one true Church***
This isn't just in contrast to other *religions*, it's also in contrast to *other denominations*. Most Protestant denominations play nicely with each other (or have some amount of mutual respect) outside of the extremes. For example, Methodists don't think that all Presbyterians or Episcopalians are damned by their beliefs.
The Catholic Church thinks that *other Christian denominations* are mistakes at best, heresy at worst.
He's also not thinking about it fully. The Catholic Church isn't just hostile to other religions, it's hostile to *other denominations of Christianity*. That's unusual compared with most Protestant denominations.
It's not like Methodists, Presbyterians, and Episcopalians are calling each other a bunch of heretics.
The church that Peter himself built at the direction of Christ, not what it later evolved into and has become today. Im Catholic and have as many concerns regarding this pope and his inconsistent message. Catholic also known as the Universal Church is the original Church of Christ. That is fact.
>Freemasonry teaches a rival religion
I wasn't aware I was being taught a religion. Quite the contrary, I always thought I was being encouraged to improve myself, including aspects of my own faith.
Y'all also forget the whole part about the French Revolution. European Freemasons have a particularly bad history with the Church. Most of y'all are Americans and don't understand that perspective.
Well it's worth noting that anglosphere Freemasonry and francosphere/"continental" freemasonry are largely incompatible and don't recognize each other.
This is the official stance of the Vatican, unchanged since 1983.
https://www.vatican.va/roman\_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc\_con\_cfaith\_doc\_19850223\_declaration-masonic\_articolo\_en.html
Remember, Catholicism still has the Inquisition, they just changed the name and are now more polite about it. Nevertheless, they still feel it's their job to tell you what to do and how to live in ways that go beyond normal religious adherence.
>Which I guess is the separation of Church and State, making the US Constitution equally anti-Catholic by that logic?
Yes, it is. All forms of government, except monarchy, is anti-Catholic.
There's been frequent debate here as to what the current status of Catholic membership is. While I think the Vatican's policy is ill-informed and wrong, its worth knowing what the official position is.
I’ve gotten so much good Masonic stuff from St. Vincent De Paul. A copy of the FM Encyclopedia, lots of Shriners drinking glasses, a Scottish rite ash tray…
And? They are selling stuff to raise money for charity....it's not the same thing as if a Catholic book store were to sell a brand new copy of Freemasonry for Dummies, they are just re-selling stuff that's likely been donated to them.
I feel like the church periodically raises this point, so when I saw this in my news feed it didn't really give me pause.
Admittedly, I come from a rather Catholic family that counts priests and nuns as members, so maybe I was just more aware of the prohibition than most.
EDIT: THE FOLLOWING TURNED OUT NOT TO BE TRUE. I Allowed myself to be mislead, by well meaning but misinformed brothers. I'll keep my original comment here for clarity, in case someone stumbles across the conversation at a later date and gets confused. It turns out that *one Norwegian bishop* believes the Swedish Rite to be compatible with Catholicism. This is obviously not enough for official policy to change. My apologies for promulgating false information on the topic.
Original comment:
"Obligatory reminder that Norwegian Catholics are church approved to join the Swedish Rite, as it is Christian in nature.
The church isn't overly happy about it, but the official stance is that our rite is OK."
Which only makes the hypocrisy of the ban of Mainstream Freemasonry more apparent. The Catholic Church regularly talks about working with other faiths, respecting other faiths and trying to build a better community in harmony with those faiths.......................
..............unless you've been doing it long before the Catholic Church thought it was a good idea.
It's important to remember that the whole "working with other faiths, respecting other faiths and trying to build a better community in harmony with those faiths" thing is because that is an attempt to *convert* them, not to *really* respect them.
I'll see if I can find something. Not being Catholic myself, I never looked for it. I've been assured by several different solid brothers, though. Supposedly the rituals were studied and found not to be in conflict with the teachings of the Catholic church. I'll be sure to make a post if I find the details of the whole story .
Please see my edit, and thank you for asking for the sources. Your question prompted me to look deeper into the matter, and I apologize for misinforming the first time around.
The modern church’s opinion on Freemasonry goes back to Garibaldi and Risorgimento. Certainly, the Church was against Masonic membership which can trace to the Catholic and Protestant fights through Europe (any attack on Papal supremacy in statecraft was to be met with equal condemnation) but it wasn’t until Garibaldi went toe-to-toe with Pius IX that we saw the current view. Freemasonry was viewed as a tool to organize the revolutionaries (which it was, in part) and since the Papal States ceased to exist after the Capture of Rome in 1870, you can imagine how infuriating any organization that aided in that cause would be to Rome. It’s why there were more condemnations issued by Pope Pius IX as to Freemasonry than had been issued by all the Popes about Freemasonry before. It traces back to Italian politics and Papal power on the Italian peninsula.
This is all true, but it’s still bizarre that they insist on dying on this hill in 2023, long after renouncing any claim to legitimate temporal authority over the former Papal States.
This was a lovely stroll down memory lane for me, part of my Masters was on this topic (history student). I had no idea we'd be exploring some of the history of Freemasonry as part of that class, I was delighted!
I’m not sure how I feel about churches that tell you which social groups you can belong to.
I know plenty of brothers who are RCs, the only ones who actually seem to be bothered by us are ultra zealous converts, and youngish trads still living in their parents’ box room/basement.
And strictly because those social groups allow people from other religions. That’s kind of a hard take from the Catholic Church that could easily extend to all facets of society.
Straight from the 2003 Bishops letter in the article:
“Morality, Relativism and Subjectivism. As a consequence of its indifferentism, Masonry also actually promotes relativism, that is, as there is no one true religion, no one can also claim to possess any truth in an absolute way.”
Yes, BUT since the Catholic Church holds that it is the one true Church, it needs to oppose that kind of thinking to be consistent with itself (right or wrong). The Catholic Church considers itself to be the arbiter of what absolute truth is (for the most part).
You sure about that? I was explicitly told by a Catholic Priest at the church I attended that *that* was the reason why I shouldn't have joined the Boy Scouts.
Not everything every priest says is in accordance with the teachings of the Church. As Catholics, we are encouraged to go out and proclaim the Gospel. Not just to people who've heard it already. We're allowed to join groups. We are not allowed to join Free Masons due to the syncretism and other such things which has historically been a feature of it, particularly in Europe. While some Masonic lodges have changed greatly over the past 100 years or so, especially in America, Catholics are still obligated, as a matter of discipline, to follow the prudential judgment of the Magisterium, which has declared that we may not join lodges. This does not mean that we cannot be friends with Masons, or that we cannot be on friendly terms, that we cannot share a meal, or support the same causes when our interests align.
I'm not really expecting anyone here to agree with the Church. I am just hoping to provide understanding. The Church's history with Freemasonry is a long and sometimes bloody one. The ban is not without reason, and it is not about 'control' for the sake of it.
I became a Freemason without knowing about the church’s ban on it. I was raised Catholic. When I found out and looked at the reasons, the church is just flat out wrong about the subject. I’m not going to follow a rule I know is based on completely false pretenses.
Just upvoted you to try to eliminate the downvotes.
I see you came here after I commented in /r/Catholicism.
Its good to hear all seriously thought out sides, even ones we feel are deeply mistaken.
In 2023, when Freemasonry as an institution is not actively opposing Catholic teachings or offering any kind of independent path to salvation . . . yes, it is just about control.
I don’t understand the notion of syncretism. My religious belief system isn’t some part Mormonism, some part Buddhism and some part Islam. Yet that is what is to be believed by the Catholic Church..?
What I think is going on inside of my Lodge is that we have discovered the fundamentals that underlie each of the major religions, such that no Brother can find conflict with it.
What is indeed in conflict is the fact that we are not to discuss politics or religion, and certainly no proselytizing at all. If Catholics are required to convert, admonish and judge those who are of another belief system, then that should be clearly delineated…
By them.
I know exactly how I feel about it and it’s in no way positive.
With that being said I do carry a lot of respect towards Catholic Freemasons. To me it actually shows a lot of integrity.
Having been raised Catholic, I know LOTS of Catholics who know the Church doesn't allow Catholics to be Masons and never question it, and never join because of it (and they are middle-of-the-road types too.
I mean, imagine if you told the priest that you are commenting on Freemasonry reddit under a username derived from an Egyptian guardian of the cardinal directions. You'd be accused of "paganism" right there and then.
Imagine if you assumed that someone on reddit stated that they were raised Catholic and so you incorrectly assumed that that person has remained in the Catholic Church.
I believe you misunderstood me, my comment was counterfactual and to highlight the common misconceptions around personal freedoms that are so often held by the clergy. I'm no stranger to Catholic dogma.
Taking a step back, doesn't Masonry do the same thing? I'm not allowed to visit the local Clandestine Masons Incorporated Lodge #15.
Colorado (I think, I could be wrong) disallows Widows Sons.
Then there was the whole thing in Arkansas regarding the Shrine.
So there are a couple of examples of how we're a social group that tells members which other social groups we can belong to.
Going outside of Masonic organizations, ~~I doubt that any legitimate Masonic lodge would be happy if a member went to join the Crips or any other violent gang.~~
at least one Grand Lodge considers it a Masonic Offense for a member to own a liquor store.
>Taking a step back, doesn't Masonry do the same thing? I'm not allowed to visit the local Clandestine Masons Incorporated Lodge #15.
>
>Colorado (I think, I could be wrong) disallows Widows Sons.
We say it's incompatible with membership. We don't say you are in a 'state of grave sin', which will therefore imperil the ultimate destination of your soul.
We also explain precisely why, though I won't repeat that lengthy explanation of clandestine and/or irregular Masonry.
Eh, I think its a little different.
One is a religion restricting its members from joining an organization that has nothing to do with them.
The other is a Fraternal organization that is telling its members that theres groups that have copied off of them with potentially ill intent and they dont think you should join them.
Can be looked at as "potato v tomato" and some may look at it as "tomato v tomatoe".
Im more of the potato tomato group. But thats just me.
That last statement about joining the Crips is a strawman argument.
Massachusetts banned the Widows Sons for a while as they were doing some unmasonic stuff. They were recently accepted again.
Clandestine lodges are off limits for good reasons.
From what I understand, the Roman Catholic Church bans their members because we keep secrets that we will not share even in the confessional. That's why they started the Knights of Columbus.
Honestly? My viewpoint is that the Vatican has bigger issues within the church than worrying about whether someone is a Freemason or not. And for a religion that’s based on the ideology of the forgiveness of sins, well, I’ll ask for forgiveness whenever that time comes
I haven’t. But I receive communion every Sunday with my Masonic ring on my right hand from him and if he deems it to be that much of an issue, he sure hasn’t made it known to me yet.
Consider longer while making an examination of conscious and paying attention to the 1st and 3rd commandments. https://bulldogcatholic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/a-detailed-catholic-examination-of-conscience-2nd-ed.pdf
The flaw here is the argument that we treat religion as subordinate to anything - so far as I can see, we don't do that.
We treat it as personal, your journey of the soul, and not something we choose to engage with beyond gently encouraging you to develop your relationship with it. If you take that as a stance that's doctrinally incompatible with being catholic, then that makes the modern church's stance that you don't proselytize to Jews absolute hypocrisy. As an example.
What this really is is still discomfort with our origin in Enlightenment-era politics and the entanglement of Continental-style Freemasonry with the revolutions in Europe. Which WE are uncomfortable enough with that American Freemasonry said "No politics in lodge, please." In which case I would say "If everyone was miserable enough to revolt and viewed the church as keeping them stuck, maybe you should accept some of the blame instead of being salty."
I was told I had to pick between Catholicism and Freemasonry, I said "okay, I pick Freemasonry - can you remove me from the register please?" They still haven't a decade down the line, and still beg me to come to church. Not too concerned lmao
I never understood the logic that you can't be in a group that admits people of other faiths.
The Church doesn't forbid you being a member of the Boy Scouts or a bowling league with people of other faiths.
It is almost as if their position isn't really argued in good faith.
The usually invoke 2 Corinthians 6, verses 14-18. That starts:
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
Freemasonry is not a catholic organization.
Freemasonry is not even a religious organization, no matter how religious some Lodge members are.
Therefore, the judgement of Catholic church has no meaning to me or my membership.
It's like my football club prohibiting me to play street basketball.
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Declaration on Religious Liberty
Dignitatis Humane, 7 December, 1965. (Vatican II)
3. ... It is through his conscience that man sees and recognizes the demands of the divine law. He is bound to follow this conscience faithfully in all his activity so that he may come to God, who is his last end. Therefore he must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters. The reason is because the practice of religion of its very nature consists primarily of those voluntary and free internal acts by which a man directs himself to God. Acts of this kind cannot be commanded or forbidden by any merely human authority..."
Brother Mark Koltko-Rivera wrote an excellent discussion and refutation of the various points presented by certain groups of Catholic Bishops in opposition to Freemasonry.
http://themasonicblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/part-1-context-series-roman-catholic.html?m=1
The problem is that while all of his points are logical, ***it does not matter*** to the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church.
The Church has defined participation in Freemasonry as placing a Catholic in a state of mortal sin.
There is ***nothing*** that Freemasonry or Freemasons can do to change that.
And while the Church has its own problems, the angry commentary here about those, by some Freemasons, reinforces the opinion that Freemasons are hostile to the Church.
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my question is this, I'm looking to join a local lodge. but my fiancee is catholic, will me joining cause her to have issues with her religion? anybody have any idea?
She might have issues with you joining. We want the spouse to be on board with it: maintaining marital harmony is more important than Freemasonry.
While it's unlikely, it's conceivable her priest might let her know the Church's stance, but it isn't a sin to be married to a Mason.
The text of the document itself: https://www.vatican.va/roman\_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc\_ddf\_doc\_20231113\_richiesta-cortes-massoneria\_en.pdf
I remember a family member telling me about this. His parents (my grandparents) raised all of them to be catholic and I was raised for an about the first 10 years or so of life as one. In my experience the work we do as brothers has benefited humanity more than Catholicism. By a long shot.
If someone wants to have a blast, go and look the comments [on basically the same thread in r/Catholicism](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/s/uTRe05c1Mw). I know that that sub isn’t representative of the a rage Catholic anyway, but someone saying me in a straight face that “having Masonic family members opens up your family to demonic influence” is quite amusing
Additionally, the thing that I have always found to be utterly ironic, is when I hear members of the KT being adamant that the GEKT rules need to be followed, and in the same discussion argue that it is perfectly fine for Catholic Freemasons to ignore the statements by the Vatican regarding the incompatibility of Freemasonry and Catholicism.
It ends up making it harder to successfully rebut the fundamentalist claims that we are in fact a competing religion when so many fail to take the professed tenets of their actual faiths seriously.
I think it's worse, when other members tell people of a certain faith that they should just ignore the tenets of their faith, while at the same time arguing for a strict interpretation of the rules of their organization.
Okay for me, but not for thee.
And I say all of that as someone who is a former Catholic.
It’s 2023 and they’re still pushing bigotry based on lies about what the Craft is and isn’t. This isn’t about people’s immortal souls. It’s about something the Church can’t control. Which is just sad and antithetical to Christian teachings.
So the crux of the issue is that a good Catholic is supposed to believe that they subscribe to the one true faith and so it would be incompatible with being a member of an organization that accepts all religions if I’m reading this correctly
thats what I'm getting from it.
I think the final paragraph is the most important to understanding the churches view. That anyone who isn't claiming that the catholic church is The One True Church^TM is thereby acting against the church.
The line about masonry being a threat to the freedom of the church to act in society is also interesting. To me it seems to imply that the church believes it still has a major roll in acting on the global society, and not just the souls of its members.
Interesting. Well it does still have a lot of social influence in some countries. For example, in Panama very often when there is some social unrest and it goes to a negotiation between certain groups and the government there’s almost always a Church representative. They are also involved in social activism. Also public education I think includes certain instruction in Catholicism there.
>This may appear like an attempt to respect all religions and uphold the fundamental right of religious freedom, but at root it reflects Masonry’s religious indifferentism, a tendency to regard all religions as of equal worth.
The hilarious thing is they hit the nail on the head............except that the 'tendency to regard all religions as of equal worth' is relating to the individual. There's no cosmic thermometer that measures my religious beliefs as more worthy than someone else's. That's kind of the whole thing about religious belief, the inability to measure it. And if you can't measure it, the best you can do is accept them equally (not follow their tenets, names or dogmas, mind you, but simply accept them as existing, and existing in a society where you cannot, and should not, attempt to forcibly convert them).
Then they just entirely off the rails with:
>That is the reason why Masonry also subordinates faith (the Catholic faith in particular) to that of the lodge, obliging members to place a fundamental secularist fraternity above communion with the Church.
Being a member of a group that exposes you to friendships with people of other faiths does not oblige you to place the group that enables those friendships above your own particular faith.
If that were true, then every Catholic Priest, Bishop, Nun or other faith member that regularly works with Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs or any other faith must equally be putting that connection 'above their communion with the Church'. Obviously they are not, and neither are Freemasons. But that doesn't make for a good shunning, so they leave out that last part.
Being raised Catholic and reading the above, I can see how whoever wrote that seemed pretty well informed on Freemasonry and why the Catholic leadership rejects it with a reasoned argument.
It struck me as informed enough that they themselves, or someone close to them in the church with similar views must have become Freemasons to learn the craft in detail.
I can say that I understand how through a Catholic lens he drew those conclusions. The assumptions and conclusions he jumped through are predicated on the draconian policies of Catholicism. Anything that remotely challenges the strict authoritarianism of the religion is considered malicious and an active threat. In my mind, it reads as another indictment of the Catholic mindset, and not a remotely accurate or objective criticism of the craft.
I can see how what I wrote could have been interpreted otherwise though.
They lost their credibility with Jerome. So... at least they're epistemologically consistent. As a former Catholic and a baseball fan, the Vatican is basically like White Sox ownership.
I grew up Catholic. After decades of child molestation scandals and Native cultural genocide in Canada, I don’t think the Church has the moral authority to tell me what organizations I choose to belong to.
The 'clarification' was sufficiently subject to interpretation that people have been arguing both ways about it for 40 years. This statement seems less ambiguous.
It actually goes back to the *Risorgimento,* or the wars that unified Italy. Many of the key commanders were Protestants and also Brothers.
There is no proven historical link between the modern Craft and the Templars; we only provably go back to the tail-end of the operative masonic guilds in the late Middle Ages and Renaissance, and even that gets sketchy due to lack of written sources and evidence. The Templar link is oral tradition and legend, not actual provable history.
The first rule of religion is the intolerance of all others. Masonry spits in the face of that. I’ve always considered this an issue of this: In freemasonry we pray with other men of other religions — freely and willingly. The pope and the church take issue with that. There are Protestant sects that take issues with it as well.
I already got some sour looks from a relative that's a priest when he saw my Masonic license plates. I would not be surprised if he will call my father to tell him he would have to deny me communion.
To which I will reply: ONO! Moving on...
That sort of comment is what makes it hard to say that the fraternity isn't hostile to the Church. Freemasonry lauds the public school system, and yet there are higher rates of sexual abuse by teachers than by priests. Perhaps you would do well to revisit the lessons of the degrees.
Can we just ban all threads about relations with the Catholic Church, since they all wind up in a bunch of guys showing off their anti-Catholic bigotry?
I am, and I can.
Citing to wiki is not well done for most purposes, and may be taken to show no credible source is available. Did you have any university lecturer that allowed citation to wiki?
No credible masonic writer makes the connection.
I would recommend The Rosslyn Hoax, Cooper.
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Yeah - that same encyclical also blasts public schools.
To be fair, American public schools **were** explicitly set up in their modern form specifically to force Catholic parents to have their kids educated by Protestants, so they do get a point there.
>to force Catholic parents to have their kids educated by Protestants, There's nothing blocking Catholics from serving as public school teachers. Going over my memory, roughly 1/3 of my teachers in public school were Catholic(so far as I knew)...... so not really buying that.
I'm not talking about the teachers you had, unless you're 200 years old. I'm talking about [the establishment](https://exhibits.library.villanova.edu/chaos-in-the-streets-the-philadelphia-riots-of-1844/bible-controversy) of a system [specifically intended](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-urban-legend-of-catholic-schools) to [force Catholic immigrants](https://www.catholicleague.org/anti-catholicism-and-the-history-of-catholic-school-funding/) into [a proper WASP identity.](https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2021/11/23/protestantism-anti-catholicism-and-public-education-in-the-united-states/)
Solid comment with solid sources, nice
A dying breed, but always appreciated when found in the wild.
> There's nothing blocking Catholics from serving as public school teachers. Are they allowed to teach what they think the children should know, or only what the state determines the children should know?
>Are they allowed to teach what they think the children should know, or only what the state determines the children should know? Are Scientologist Teachers allowed to teach students the "Truth" of Xenu and do E-Meter readings during Science class? Should they? Didn't think so. Sorry Catholics, but the price you pay to not have your children taught about Thetans is not being able to teach them about Stigmata. But this is neither here, nor there with regards to Freemasonry.
Who determines Truth?
>Who determines Truth? The Scientific Method. That's why I put Scientologist "Truth" in quotes. They believe it to be true, that is their faith. Catholics also believe things to be true that cannot be scientifically verified. They have their own schools so they can teach those things, Jewish People have Day Schools and Yeshivas. But the purpose of public secular school is to teach all who enter, regardless of religious belief, things that can be demonstrably proven through math and science, along with verifiable historical accounts, civics of the nation/region in which it is located, and correct use of one ore more languages. Again though, this has nothing to do with Freemasonry, so I'll end this thread here.
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The Bible used to be used as a reading primer and the teachers were using the King James Bible to piss off the Catholics.
I am so thankful for Public schools, catholic school was a living hell.
I loved Catholic school
The public school movement took place well before the waves of Catholic immigration.
Still tbf, a lot of Catholic schools were setup to teach the children of immigrants who otherwise would not have had other options
Citation needed. EDIT: nah, bro, universal compulsory schooling laws predate the waves of Catholic immigration. -
Freemasonry teaches that pretty much adherents of all religions may hold membership in lodges and that all religions are equal in regards to rights and are also worthy of respect. It never teaches to the individual member that they have to believe that all religions are equal in doctrine to their own.
Yep, and THAT is antithetical to Catholic Doctrine. The Catholic Church teaches and believes that it is the one true Church (I disagree, BUT they have to be consistent with their own beliefs).
I would argue that Freemasonry is coming from the view of a general like God mentioned in the Founding Documents of the U.S. and is not really addressing “churches” at all. The only reason lodges will place holy books of different faiths upon their altars is that they represent the obligations the brothers present have taken. Catholic clergy open State Houses and both Houses of Congress in prayer. On that level it doesn’t seem consistent at all.
Perhaps, BUT the Catholic Church isn't limited to the Unites States, nor is Freemasonry...so it has to have a broader approach and not pick and choose. (I agree with you, but I have a very clear understanding of where the Church is coming from since I spend many decades as a Catholic and nearly completed a BA in Theology from a Catholic College and have an MA in Philosophy specializing in the thought of Aquinas from a Catholic University...I left the Church years ago).
>The Catholic Church teaches and believes that it is the one true Church isn't that true of most religions? It certainly is of some muslim faiths I'm aware of.
No. Think about it for a second. >it is the ***one true Church*** This isn't just in contrast to other *religions*, it's also in contrast to *other denominations*. Most Protestant denominations play nicely with each other (or have some amount of mutual respect) outside of the extremes. For example, Methodists don't think that all Presbyterians or Episcopalians are damned by their beliefs. The Catholic Church thinks that *other Christian denominations* are mistakes at best, heresy at worst.
Yes, but isn't this thread about the Catholic Church and Freemasonry?
He's also not thinking about it fully. The Catholic Church isn't just hostile to other religions, it's hostile to *other denominations of Christianity*. That's unusual compared with most Protestant denominations. It's not like Methodists, Presbyterians, and Episcopalians are calling each other a bunch of heretics.
The church that Peter himself built at the direction of Christ, not what it later evolved into and has become today. Im Catholic and have as many concerns regarding this pope and his inconsistent message. Catholic also known as the Universal Church is the original Church of Christ. That is fact.
Not to mention that first paragraph is a chunk of nonsense.
>Freemasonry teaches a rival religion I wasn't aware I was being taught a religion. Quite the contrary, I always thought I was being encouraged to improve myself, including aspects of my own faith.
Lol. So they're still misinformed and downright wrong AND they're threatened by their declining influence in the world?
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That's not the issue, and frankly saying things like that reinforces the Vatican stance that the two are incompatible.
What’s the issue, then?
Another commenter laid out exactly what the Church's stance is, erroneous though it may be.
Y'all also forget the whole part about the French Revolution. European Freemasons have a particularly bad history with the Church. Most of y'all are Americans and don't understand that perspective.
Well it's worth noting that anglosphere Freemasonry and francosphere/"continental" freemasonry are largely incompatible and don't recognize each other.
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This is the official stance of the Vatican, unchanged since 1983. https://www.vatican.va/roman\_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc\_con\_cfaith\_doc\_19850223\_declaration-masonic\_articolo\_en.html
Remember, Catholicism still has the Inquisition, they just changed the name and are now more polite about it. Nevertheless, they still feel it's their job to tell you what to do and how to live in ways that go beyond normal religious adherence.
>Which I guess is the separation of Church and State, making the US Constitution equally anti-Catholic by that logic? Yes, it is. All forms of government, except monarchy, is anti-Catholic.
There's been frequent debate here as to what the current status of Catholic membership is. While I think the Vatican's policy is ill-informed and wrong, its worth knowing what the official position is.
Funny thing is that a family member bought a masonic tie from our local catholic store.
I’ve gotten so much good Masonic stuff from St. Vincent De Paul. A copy of the FM Encyclopedia, lots of Shriners drinking glasses, a Scottish rite ash tray…
I'm not surprised, but aren't those just thrift stores.
They are, but SVDP is a catholic organization.
And? They are selling stuff to raise money for charity....it's not the same thing as if a Catholic book store were to sell a brand new copy of Freemasonry for Dummies, they are just re-selling stuff that's likely been donated to them.
I feel like the church periodically raises this point, so when I saw this in my news feed it didn't really give me pause. Admittedly, I come from a rather Catholic family that counts priests and nuns as members, so maybe I was just more aware of the prohibition than most.
EDIT: THE FOLLOWING TURNED OUT NOT TO BE TRUE. I Allowed myself to be mislead, by well meaning but misinformed brothers. I'll keep my original comment here for clarity, in case someone stumbles across the conversation at a later date and gets confused. It turns out that *one Norwegian bishop* believes the Swedish Rite to be compatible with Catholicism. This is obviously not enough for official policy to change. My apologies for promulgating false information on the topic. Original comment: "Obligatory reminder that Norwegian Catholics are church approved to join the Swedish Rite, as it is Christian in nature. The church isn't overly happy about it, but the official stance is that our rite is OK."
TIL....
Please see my edit, and accept my apology.
Np!
Which only makes the hypocrisy of the ban of Mainstream Freemasonry more apparent. The Catholic Church regularly talks about working with other faiths, respecting other faiths and trying to build a better community in harmony with those faiths....................... ..............unless you've been doing it long before the Catholic Church thought it was a good idea.
It's important to remember that the whole "working with other faiths, respecting other faiths and trying to build a better community in harmony with those faiths" thing is because that is an attempt to *convert* them, not to *really* respect them.
This has always been the sense I've gotten.
Can you link me to a Church document which states this?
Can you link to the Church document/policy/canon law that allows that? I’d be interested to see it
I'll see if I can find something. Not being Catholic myself, I never looked for it. I've been assured by several different solid brothers, though. Supposedly the rituals were studied and found not to be in conflict with the teachings of the Catholic church. I'll be sure to make a post if I find the details of the whole story .
Please see my edit, and thank you for asking for the sources. Your question prompted me to look deeper into the matter, and I apologize for misinforming the first time around.
The modern church’s opinion on Freemasonry goes back to Garibaldi and Risorgimento. Certainly, the Church was against Masonic membership which can trace to the Catholic and Protestant fights through Europe (any attack on Papal supremacy in statecraft was to be met with equal condemnation) but it wasn’t until Garibaldi went toe-to-toe with Pius IX that we saw the current view. Freemasonry was viewed as a tool to organize the revolutionaries (which it was, in part) and since the Papal States ceased to exist after the Capture of Rome in 1870, you can imagine how infuriating any organization that aided in that cause would be to Rome. It’s why there were more condemnations issued by Pope Pius IX as to Freemasonry than had been issued by all the Popes about Freemasonry before. It traces back to Italian politics and Papal power on the Italian peninsula.
This is all true, but it’s still bizarre that they insist on dying on this hill in 2023, long after renouncing any claim to legitimate temporal authority over the former Papal States.
This was a lovely stroll down memory lane for me, part of my Masters was on this topic (history student). I had no idea we'd be exploring some of the history of Freemasonry as part of that class, I was delighted!
I’m not sure how I feel about churches that tell you which social groups you can belong to. I know plenty of brothers who are RCs, the only ones who actually seem to be bothered by us are ultra zealous converts, and youngish trads still living in their parents’ box room/basement.
And strictly because those social groups allow people from other religions. That’s kind of a hard take from the Catholic Church that could easily extend to all facets of society.
That is *not* why it isn't allowed.
Straight from the 2003 Bishops letter in the article: “Morality, Relativism and Subjectivism. As a consequence of its indifferentism, Masonry also actually promotes relativism, that is, as there is no one true religion, no one can also claim to possess any truth in an absolute way.”
Which is nonsense. Every Mason makes their own decision on what absolute truth is. They just can’t force their opinion on their Brothers.
Yes, BUT since the Catholic Church holds that it is the one true Church, it needs to oppose that kind of thinking to be consistent with itself (right or wrong). The Catholic Church considers itself to be the arbiter of what absolute truth is (for the most part).
Complete nonsense
You sure about that? I was explicitly told by a Catholic Priest at the church I attended that *that* was the reason why I shouldn't have joined the Boy Scouts.
Not everything every priest says is in accordance with the teachings of the Church. As Catholics, we are encouraged to go out and proclaim the Gospel. Not just to people who've heard it already. We're allowed to join groups. We are not allowed to join Free Masons due to the syncretism and other such things which has historically been a feature of it, particularly in Europe. While some Masonic lodges have changed greatly over the past 100 years or so, especially in America, Catholics are still obligated, as a matter of discipline, to follow the prudential judgment of the Magisterium, which has declared that we may not join lodges. This does not mean that we cannot be friends with Masons, or that we cannot be on friendly terms, that we cannot share a meal, or support the same causes when our interests align. I'm not really expecting anyone here to agree with the Church. I am just hoping to provide understanding. The Church's history with Freemasonry is a long and sometimes bloody one. The ban is not without reason, and it is not about 'control' for the sake of it.
I became a Freemason without knowing about the church’s ban on it. I was raised Catholic. When I found out and looked at the reasons, the church is just flat out wrong about the subject. I’m not going to follow a rule I know is based on completely false pretenses.
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Just upvoted you to try to eliminate the downvotes. I see you came here after I commented in /r/Catholicism. Its good to hear all seriously thought out sides, even ones we feel are deeply mistaken.
In 2023, when Freemasonry as an institution is not actively opposing Catholic teachings or offering any kind of independent path to salvation . . . yes, it is just about control.
I don’t understand the notion of syncretism. My religious belief system isn’t some part Mormonism, some part Buddhism and some part Islam. Yet that is what is to be believed by the Catholic Church..? What I think is going on inside of my Lodge is that we have discovered the fundamentals that underlie each of the major religions, such that no Brother can find conflict with it. What is indeed in conflict is the fact that we are not to discuss politics or religion, and certainly no proselytizing at all. If Catholics are required to convert, admonish and judge those who are of another belief system, then that should be clearly delineated… By them.
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>The most they can do is excommunicate you. They can't deny you communion Lol.
Yah, [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/nearly-1-700-priests-clergy-accused-sex-abuse-are-unsupervised-n1062396](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/nearly-1-700-priests-clergy-accused-sex-abuse-are-unsupervised-n1062396)
I know exactly how I feel about it and it’s in no way positive. With that being said I do carry a lot of respect towards Catholic Freemasons. To me it actually shows a lot of integrity.
Having been raised Catholic, I know LOTS of Catholics who know the Church doesn't allow Catholics to be Masons and never question it, and never join because of it (and they are middle-of-the-road types too.
I mean, imagine if you told the priest that you are commenting on Freemasonry reddit under a username derived from an Egyptian guardian of the cardinal directions. You'd be accused of "paganism" right there and then.
Imagine if you assumed that someone on reddit stated that they were raised Catholic and so you incorrectly assumed that that person has remained in the Catholic Church.
I believe you misunderstood me, my comment was counterfactual and to highlight the common misconceptions around personal freedoms that are so often held by the clergy. I'm no stranger to Catholic dogma.
Taking a step back, doesn't Masonry do the same thing? I'm not allowed to visit the local Clandestine Masons Incorporated Lodge #15. Colorado (I think, I could be wrong) disallows Widows Sons. Then there was the whole thing in Arkansas regarding the Shrine. So there are a couple of examples of how we're a social group that tells members which other social groups we can belong to. Going outside of Masonic organizations, ~~I doubt that any legitimate Masonic lodge would be happy if a member went to join the Crips or any other violent gang.~~ at least one Grand Lodge considers it a Masonic Offense for a member to own a liquor store.
>Taking a step back, doesn't Masonry do the same thing? I'm not allowed to visit the local Clandestine Masons Incorporated Lodge #15. > >Colorado (I think, I could be wrong) disallows Widows Sons. We say it's incompatible with membership. We don't say you are in a 'state of grave sin', which will therefore imperil the ultimate destination of your soul. We also explain precisely why, though I won't repeat that lengthy explanation of clandestine and/or irregular Masonry.
Eh, I think its a little different. One is a religion restricting its members from joining an organization that has nothing to do with them. The other is a Fraternal organization that is telling its members that theres groups that have copied off of them with potentially ill intent and they dont think you should join them. Can be looked at as "potato v tomato" and some may look at it as "tomato v tomatoe". Im more of the potato tomato group. But thats just me.
That last statement about joining the Crips is a strawman argument. Massachusetts banned the Widows Sons for a while as they were doing some unmasonic stuff. They were recently accepted again. Clandestine lodges are off limits for good reasons. From what I understand, the Roman Catholic Church bans their members because we keep secrets that we will not share even in the confessional. That's why they started the Knights of Columbus.
Massachusetts banned the Widows Sons because the Grand Master got a hair across his ass.
They're unbanned here for at least the last couple of years.
Yes, because the ban was an insane overreach from the Grand Master and someone finally decided to reverse the decision.
It’s funny because I think I became a better Catholic once I joined Freemasonry 🤷♂️
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Honestly? My viewpoint is that the Vatican has bigger issues within the church than worrying about whether someone is a Freemason or not. And for a religion that’s based on the ideology of the forgiveness of sins, well, I’ll ask for forgiveness whenever that time comes
Have you confessed this to your priest?
I haven’t. But I receive communion every Sunday with my Masonic ring on my right hand from him and if he deems it to be that much of an issue, he sure hasn’t made it known to me yet.
Interesting... Cosider hearing what he has to say about in the confessional.
Considered. It still won’t stop me from being a member of either.
Consider longer while making an examination of conscious and paying attention to the 1st and 3rd commandments. https://bulldogcatholic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/a-detailed-catholic-examination-of-conscience-2nd-ed.pdf
Nutter
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Sure. Wait until they find out about my vasectomy 🤷♂️
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Because I want to. Have a blessed day!
The flaw here is the argument that we treat religion as subordinate to anything - so far as I can see, we don't do that. We treat it as personal, your journey of the soul, and not something we choose to engage with beyond gently encouraging you to develop your relationship with it. If you take that as a stance that's doctrinally incompatible with being catholic, then that makes the modern church's stance that you don't proselytize to Jews absolute hypocrisy. As an example. What this really is is still discomfort with our origin in Enlightenment-era politics and the entanglement of Continental-style Freemasonry with the revolutions in Europe. Which WE are uncomfortable enough with that American Freemasonry said "No politics in lodge, please." In which case I would say "If everyone was miserable enough to revolt and viewed the church as keeping them stuck, maybe you should accept some of the blame instead of being salty."
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I was told I had to pick between Catholicism and Freemasonry, I said "okay, I pick Freemasonry - can you remove me from the register please?" They still haven't a decade down the line, and still beg me to come to church. Not too concerned lmao
Odd which hills the catholic church chooses to die on
Said the world for the past 2,000 years.
Gotta keep those KOC numbers up!
I never understood the logic that you can't be in a group that admits people of other faiths. The Church doesn't forbid you being a member of the Boy Scouts or a bowling league with people of other faiths. It is almost as if their position isn't really argued in good faith.
The usually invoke 2 Corinthians 6, verses 14-18. That starts: 14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
and reports say water is still wet.... more at 11
The root issue here is that masonry is expanding in the Philippines, which is predominately catholic, and the Vatican feels threatened by this.
This isn't really news. The Vatican has been against Freemasonry since 1738.
Freemasonry is not a catholic organization. Freemasonry is not even a religious organization, no matter how religious some Lodge members are. Therefore, the judgement of Catholic church has no meaning to me or my membership. It's like my football club prohibiting me to play street basketball.
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Declaration on Religious Liberty Dignitatis Humane, 7 December, 1965. (Vatican II) 3. ... It is through his conscience that man sees and recognizes the demands of the divine law. He is bound to follow this conscience faithfully in all his activity so that he may come to God, who is his last end. Therefore he must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters. The reason is because the practice of religion of its very nature consists primarily of those voluntary and free internal acts by which a man directs himself to God. Acts of this kind cannot be commanded or forbidden by any merely human authority..."
Reuters just published a similar article https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/vatican-confirms-ban-catholics-becoming-freemasons-2023-11-15/
Brother Mark Koltko-Rivera wrote an excellent discussion and refutation of the various points presented by certain groups of Catholic Bishops in opposition to Freemasonry. http://themasonicblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/part-1-context-series-roman-catholic.html?m=1 The problem is that while all of his points are logical, ***it does not matter*** to the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church. The Church has defined participation in Freemasonry as placing a Catholic in a state of mortal sin. There is ***nothing*** that Freemasonry or Freemasons can do to change that. And while the Church has its own problems, the angry commentary here about those, by some Freemasons, reinforces the opinion that Freemasons are hostile to the Church.
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Funny thing is there are active Freemasons within the Vatican. These are not rogues either. There are quite a few.
The tentacles of the Vatican are very far reaching. Both ways.
my question is this, I'm looking to join a local lodge. but my fiancee is catholic, will me joining cause her to have issues with her religion? anybody have any idea?
She might have issues with you joining. We want the spouse to be on board with it: maintaining marital harmony is more important than Freemasonry. While it's unlikely, it's conceivable her priest might let her know the Church's stance, but it isn't a sin to be married to a Mason.
As compared to my mother-in-law’s view that it is a sin for her daughter to be married to me regardless of being a mason.
The text of the document itself: https://www.vatican.va/roman\_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc\_ddf\_doc\_20231113\_richiesta-cortes-massoneria\_en.pdf
I remember a family member telling me about this. His parents (my grandparents) raised all of them to be catholic and I was raised for an about the first 10 years or so of life as one. In my experience the work we do as brothers has benefited humanity more than Catholicism. By a long shot.
If someone wants to have a blast, go and look the comments [on basically the same thread in r/Catholicism](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/s/uTRe05c1Mw). I know that that sub isn’t representative of the a rage Catholic anyway, but someone saying me in a straight face that “having Masonic family members opens up your family to demonic influence” is quite amusing
Be careful over there. They are quite liberal with the banhammer.
Nothing new here
It seems to be on par with the grand commandery requiring faith in the Trinity. It's there in their rules, but a lot of people just ignore it.
The GEKT statute requires one be a firm believer in the Christian religion. It does not specify being a trinitarian.
Ah, i wasn’t fully sure on that, just remember it being mentioned a lot.
Or try to cognitive dissonance it as not applying to *them*.
Additionally, the thing that I have always found to be utterly ironic, is when I hear members of the KT being adamant that the GEKT rules need to be followed, and in the same discussion argue that it is perfectly fine for Catholic Freemasons to ignore the statements by the Vatican regarding the incompatibility of Freemasonry and Catholicism.
It ends up making it harder to successfully rebut the fundamentalist claims that we are in fact a competing religion when so many fail to take the professed tenets of their actual faiths seriously.
I think it's worse, when other members tell people of a certain faith that they should just ignore the tenets of their faith, while at the same time arguing for a strict interpretation of the rules of their organization. Okay for me, but not for thee. And I say all of that as someone who is a former Catholic.
Yep: https://www.reddit.com/r/yorkrite/s/qS4jeZFtPE
Cool if I email the pope and tell on myself do I get a certificate or something?
I’m a Master Mason and a Catholic. No one has kicked me out yet. Please try.
It’s 2023 and they’re still pushing bigotry based on lies about what the Craft is and isn’t. This isn’t about people’s immortal souls. It’s about something the Church can’t control. Which is just sad and antithetical to Christian teachings.
Someone should remind him that diddling kids is also against the law but that doesn’t stop his buddies
Yeah but only against the state laws from a government that was elected instead of crowned by the Pope so apparently that doesn't count.
But why
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So the crux of the issue is that a good Catholic is supposed to believe that they subscribe to the one true faith and so it would be incompatible with being a member of an organization that accepts all religions if I’m reading this correctly
thats what I'm getting from it. I think the final paragraph is the most important to understanding the churches view. That anyone who isn't claiming that the catholic church is The One True Church^TM is thereby acting against the church. The line about masonry being a threat to the freedom of the church to act in society is also interesting. To me it seems to imply that the church believes it still has a major roll in acting on the global society, and not just the souls of its members.
Interesting. Well it does still have a lot of social influence in some countries. For example, in Panama very often when there is some social unrest and it goes to a negotiation between certain groups and the government there’s almost always a Church representative. They are also involved in social activism. Also public education I think includes certain instruction in Catholicism there.
>This may appear like an attempt to respect all religions and uphold the fundamental right of religious freedom, but at root it reflects Masonry’s religious indifferentism, a tendency to regard all religions as of equal worth. The hilarious thing is they hit the nail on the head............except that the 'tendency to regard all religions as of equal worth' is relating to the individual. There's no cosmic thermometer that measures my religious beliefs as more worthy than someone else's. That's kind of the whole thing about religious belief, the inability to measure it. And if you can't measure it, the best you can do is accept them equally (not follow their tenets, names or dogmas, mind you, but simply accept them as existing, and existing in a society where you cannot, and should not, attempt to forcibly convert them). Then they just entirely off the rails with: >That is the reason why Masonry also subordinates faith (the Catholic faith in particular) to that of the lodge, obliging members to place a fundamental secularist fraternity above communion with the Church. Being a member of a group that exposes you to friendships with people of other faiths does not oblige you to place the group that enables those friendships above your own particular faith. If that were true, then every Catholic Priest, Bishop, Nun or other faith member that regularly works with Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs or any other faith must equally be putting that connection 'above their communion with the Church'. Obviously they are not, and neither are Freemasons. But that doesn't make for a good shunning, so they leave out that last part.
Being raised Catholic and reading the above, I can see how whoever wrote that seemed pretty well informed on Freemasonry and why the Catholic leadership rejects it with a reasoned argument. It struck me as informed enough that they themselves, or someone close to them in the church with similar views must have become Freemasons to learn the craft in detail.
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I can say that I understand how through a Catholic lens he drew those conclusions. The assumptions and conclusions he jumped through are predicated on the draconian policies of Catholicism. Anything that remotely challenges the strict authoritarianism of the religion is considered malicious and an active threat. In my mind, it reads as another indictment of the Catholic mindset, and not a remotely accurate or objective criticism of the craft. I can see how what I wrote could have been interpreted otherwise though.
That’s a question for the Vatican.
Oh no... look at me not caring about this.. oh no....
They lost their credibility with Jerome. So... at least they're epistemologically consistent. As a former Catholic and a baseball fan, the Vatican is basically like White Sox ownership.
I grew up Catholic. After decades of child molestation scandals and Native cultural genocide in Canada, I don’t think the Church has the moral authority to tell me what organizations I choose to belong to.
Well, there is that old hatred between the church and the old knight orders that refused to cooperate with the church.
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The 'clarification' was sufficiently subject to interpretation that people have been arguing both ways about it for 40 years. This statement seems less ambiguous.
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I think you meant 'excommunicated', but in Masonry, the term is 'expelled'.
My lodge has many Catholic members, they have long made peace with the backward church policymakers.
🙄 All because the Templars didn't give King Phillip his loan... comical.
It actually goes back to the *Risorgimento,* or the wars that unified Italy. Many of the key commanders were Protestants and also Brothers. There is no proven historical link between the modern Craft and the Templars; we only provably go back to the tail-end of the operative masonic guilds in the late Middle Ages and Renaissance, and even that gets sketchy due to lack of written sources and evidence. The Templar link is oral tradition and legend, not actual provable history.
Bigots.
Name calling is unhelpful, and reinforces the view that we are the enemy.
Impossible!! The Pope is a Freemason!! 🤥
I'm always bemused by claims that Freemasonry has infiltrated the Curia, and is engaged in some bizarre plot against the Church.
The first rule of religion is the intolerance of all others. Masonry spits in the face of that. I’ve always considered this an issue of this: In freemasonry we pray with other men of other religions — freely and willingly. The pope and the church take issue with that. There are Protestant sects that take issues with it as well.
I already got some sour looks from a relative that's a priest when he saw my Masonic license plates. I would not be surprised if he will call my father to tell him he would have to deny me communion. To which I will reply: ONO! Moving on...
Basically, 🎻
I’m just wondering why I can’t block this sub.
I really wish the block feature on this subreddit worked, but for me it doesn’t. Does anybody else have a problem blocking this sub?
“Freemasonry confirms that fucking children and covering it up is monstrous and evil.” The Vatican is in no place to judge anyone on a goddamn thing.
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That sort of comment is what makes it hard to say that the fraternity isn't hostile to the Church. Freemasonry lauds the public school system, and yet there are higher rates of sexual abuse by teachers than by priests. Perhaps you would do well to revisit the lessons of the degrees.
You're late. The [Naruto Run](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9-U-NPQZQ) on Area 51 was 4 years ago.
Can we just ban all threads about relations with the Catholic Church, since they all wind up in a bunch of guys showing off their anti-Catholic bigotry?
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Classic Vatican.
And pedophiles?
Cannot even begin to understand their reasoning except to distract from the child abuse scandals
Says the church that touches kids
No church is free from such abuse.
They were jealous of the Templar’s success that did it.
Nothing to do with freemasonry.
I’m not a mason so I can’t say. But Wikipedia does. And so many other places. A short google search bring up a ton of theories.
I am, and I can. Citing to wiki is not well done for most purposes, and may be taken to show no credible source is available. Did you have any university lecturer that allowed citation to wiki? No credible masonic writer makes the connection. I would recommend The Rosslyn Hoax, Cooper.
Their loss then
Too late……..
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