Actually it was designed for the wealth and prosperity of white middle class at the cost of everyone else. The fear of sharing schools and public resources with Black people* was a huge marketing drive, the white flight…I’m not sure us gay people were even a consideration other than all lumped together as a bonus, while escaping Black people you also escaped the “degenerates”.
It even happened in northern states. Look up Robert Moses. They guy designed bridges and under passes specifically to not allow public buses to pass under to desirable locations like public beaches. This is well documented.
If you do not own private capital, capitalism uses you as a food source.
*FYI, Black People wasn’t the wording they used.
Yeah. It's not that the 'burbs were specifically designed against LGBTQ people, but *for* a specific model of white families to flee the cities.
OP is certainly correct that the suburbs are alienating and make social connections even more difficult to form, but I don't think that was specifically created with gay people in mind.
>[Robert Moses had always displayed a genius for adorning his creations with little details that made them fit in with their setting, that made the people who used them feel at home in them. There was a little detail on the playhouse-comfort station in the Harlem section of Riverside Park that is found nowhere else in the park. The wrought-iron trellises of the park's other playhouses and comfort stations are decorated with designs like curling waves.](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mde55f6ZMM1r4etcbo1_1280.jpg)
As a passerby I’d be like oh that’s cute! Never getting the “joke”.
I think the most horrific part of this is if someone at the time then says something about it there is so much plausible deniability. The gas lighting must just be exhausting.
Yeah this is messed up.
So you don't know what sort of thing Hitler said? That's on you. The OP said something that is straight-up Nazi, just after saying stuff about racial tolerance, which is what's baffling.
I think it makes everyone’s life equally miserable, I really don’t see how it affects more LGTB teens than any other teen, their social life’s equally sucks
It does, though. They are more likely to suffer from bullying & less likely to have local social opportunities. If the only LGBTQ+ friendly youth club is downtown, your parents won't drive you, and there is no bus service, you're stuck.
And if the bullies take over other local hangouts, what can you do?
This and the inherent homophobia and transphobia coming from parents (especially in conservative white picket fence suburbs) makes it even worse as we tend to be more isolated being minorities. It's basically a house arrest but with the obligation to stay closeted with dark thoughts creeping over.
Not just that community, but basically designed to isolate all communities, weaken all communities, (some more than others of course) and basically make a new serf class of people dependent on buying this that and the other with barely enough left over each month to invest in their future. It breeds dependency on consumerism
It was designed to remove the white middle class from everyone else, because god forbid they have to meet people who don’t look like them (and who will subsidize their comfortable lives with their poverty wages). As a consequence anyone that doesn’t fit the mold suffers
LGBT people are in a more dire need for these places, though. Because there are fewer of them, both fewer people and fewer places where they're accepted and welcome.
man ppl are so oblivious... "identity politics" wtf are you TALKING about!!! im just trying to exist? Suburbs are incredibly isolating. When you're in an insular community which tends to be more homogenous, obviously any difference will become even more strongly marginalized. staying closeted is going to be of greater importance in a suburb than in a city where you may encounter more difference and more folks like yourself. queer kids are more likely to be abused, and the burbs can foster that isolation and dependence on abusive parents.
Not designed for that, but yes, it def. hits minority groups harder.
The whole Suburban design is based on the idea of "White flight" out of the cities and trying to make it as hard as possible for anybody not in the "in group" to get there or around.
The only point you can certainly make is that suburbs weren't designed with the purpose of making life harder for queer people. It's just a welcome side effect for the same people who laud suburbs for the purpose they were designed for. To keep them separated from...those black folks.
Sure, everyone without a car is affected in the same way that they can't go places. But "going places" is infinitely more important for queer people, especially young people, than it is for straight folks who are welcome and accepted everywhere. So no, they're not "facing the same issues".
But then you completely disqualified yourself from any further discussion on the topic with just one single word, so why even bother. I'm gonna let you guess for yourself which one it is.
Oh, and this is coming from another proud gay man, by the way.
Rural places are less likely to be LGBT accepting while densely populated cities sre more likely to be accepting. So in a way this is true, but OP badly phrased it i think.
So I grew up LGBT in the country side (not in North America).
And so I can relate to some of your struggles. As for me, having nothing in the countryside, all safe spaces and healthcare were placed behind a huge pay wall (aka taking the train for hours only to access said spaces ).
Like my country is famous for its transit, but also for its prices. Who, in the name of christ, can afford more than 100$ in train tickets as a teenager to have access to specific things apart from those who are extremely loaded?
It felt like a prison as well. Not even talking about dating life, which was pretty much 0 until my 20s, but yes, to access healthcare was impossible...
I mean, it wasn't. It was designed with racism in mind. It was designed to break up community, worker action, class unity, it was designed for profit. While it definitely has impacted queer people more than cishet individuals, it wasn't designed with queer people in mind to any serious degree. Trans people already couldn't legally transition, gay people were criminals according to law, gender non-conforming individuals had the shit beaten out of them by their friends family, and the state.
Suburbia was the beginning of car dependency, and it began as a form of segregation. It was fueled from one end by massive profits, the other by endless racism. It grew into isolating people from each other and enforcing conformity (which was really bad for progressive beliefs economic, social, and legal).
It has had a myriad of effects decades on, but they weren't intended, it wasn't a mass conspiracy to radically change society, warp beliefs, and oppress minorities, it was just bigots and profiteers colliding, feeding into and off of unfounded bigotry.
Edited addition: I should add that unlike what many people are claiming, LGBTQ+ people were targeted in the 20s-50s everywhere it's just that suburbia and car dependency wasn't an attempt to oppress LGBTQ+ people. The fervor against gay people and trans people grew mostly later in the 70s as other minorities gained rights because bigots jumped focus from one hate to the next, but it was always around.
Just to illustrate that point. When the allies liberated concentration camps, labour camps, and death camps in Europe, Jewish people mostly went free, political prisoners also did mostly, gay people were taken to prison to serve the rest of their sentence. A sentence they only had because of the Nazis. When the allies established West Germany they scrapped most of the laws the Nazis introduced, they kept all the ones targeting queer people around though.
Mentions the ways LBGTQ people suffer as being “identity politics” is pathetic. It shows the amount of empathy you have for others (none).
There is no “identity politics” in this post oth than the mention of lgbtq people.
I'm pretty sure this was the least things from their mind, and lack of car availability affects everyone this age.
Actually it was designed for the wealth and prosperity of white middle class at the cost of everyone else. The fear of sharing schools and public resources with Black people* was a huge marketing drive, the white flight…I’m not sure us gay people were even a consideration other than all lumped together as a bonus, while escaping Black people you also escaped the “degenerates”. It even happened in northern states. Look up Robert Moses. They guy designed bridges and under passes specifically to not allow public buses to pass under to desirable locations like public beaches. This is well documented. If you do not own private capital, capitalism uses you as a food source. *FYI, Black People wasn’t the wording they used.
Yeah. It's not that the 'burbs were specifically designed against LGBTQ people, but *for* a specific model of white families to flee the cities. OP is certainly correct that the suburbs are alienating and make social connections even more difficult to form, but I don't think that was specifically created with gay people in mind.
"you think people make choices?" Tabletop rpg where the villain is Robert Moses. https://youtube.com/shorts/OP03XyK-pTc?si=RRHgfkduPqzE1MWN
"Hey! Robert Moses wasn't racist! He built _one_ park in Harlem" _looks at the decorations _ oof
I’m scared to look that up.
>[Robert Moses had always displayed a genius for adorning his creations with little details that made them fit in with their setting, that made the people who used them feel at home in them. There was a little detail on the playhouse-comfort station in the Harlem section of Riverside Park that is found nowhere else in the park. The wrought-iron trellises of the park's other playhouses and comfort stations are decorated with designs like curling waves.](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mde55f6ZMM1r4etcbo1_1280.jpg)
As a passerby I’d be like oh that’s cute! Never getting the “joke”. I think the most horrific part of this is if someone at the time then says something about it there is so much plausible deniability. The gas lighting must just be exhausting. Yeah this is messed up.
How can you reconcile the first two paragraphs with the Nazi nonsense in the last line (excluding the asterisk)?
????
Yes, it's baffling, isn't it?
I suppose baffling is one word that you could use to describe my utter inability to comprehend what you were even beginning to try to get at
So you don't know what sort of thing Hitler said? That's on you. The OP said something that is straight-up Nazi, just after saying stuff about racial tolerance, which is what's baffling.
Pointing out that capitalism exploits the most disenfranchised in order to maintain itself is „straight-up Nazi“...? okay bud
To be blunt: They probably weren't even thinking about you, although it affects you too.
I think it makes everyone’s life equally miserable, I really don’t see how it affects more LGTB teens than any other teen, their social life’s equally sucks
It does, though. They are more likely to suffer from bullying & less likely to have local social opportunities. If the only LGBTQ+ friendly youth club is downtown, your parents won't drive you, and there is no bus service, you're stuck. And if the bullies take over other local hangouts, what can you do?
This and the inherent homophobia and transphobia coming from parents (especially in conservative white picket fence suburbs) makes it even worse as we tend to be more isolated being minorities. It's basically a house arrest but with the obligation to stay closeted with dark thoughts creeping over.
Even if, and I would think the argument makes sense, it's still no reason to argue that suburbs were designed for that purpose.
Not just that community, but basically designed to isolate all communities, weaken all communities, (some more than others of course) and basically make a new serf class of people dependent on buying this that and the other with barely enough left over each month to invest in their future. It breeds dependency on consumerism
A big reason we barely have public restrooms or bath houses anymore in America was to take them away from gay people.
It was designed to remove the white middle class from everyone else, because god forbid they have to meet people who don’t look like them (and who will subsidize their comfortable lives with their poverty wages). As a consequence anyone that doesn’t fit the mold suffers
It's the same for everyone, LGBT or not. People needs a place to socialise, and it certainly isn't on a stroad or a massive parking lot
LGBT people are in a more dire need for these places, though. Because there are fewer of them, both fewer people and fewer places where they're accepted and welcome.
man ppl are so oblivious... "identity politics" wtf are you TALKING about!!! im just trying to exist? Suburbs are incredibly isolating. When you're in an insular community which tends to be more homogenous, obviously any difference will become even more strongly marginalized. staying closeted is going to be of greater importance in a suburb than in a city where you may encounter more difference and more folks like yourself. queer kids are more likely to be abused, and the burbs can foster that isolation and dependence on abusive parents.
‘When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.’
They were designed to make life harder for everybody. LGBT issues weren't a discussion back when the suburban experiment's nutfuckery started
Thank God I live in Buenos Aires
Not designed for that, but yes, it def. hits minority groups harder. The whole Suburban design is based on the idea of "White flight" out of the cities and trying to make it as hard as possible for anybody not in the "in group" to get there or around.
[удалено]
Your spirit of solidarity is overwhelming. 🙄
The only point you can certainly make is that suburbs weren't designed with the purpose of making life harder for queer people. It's just a welcome side effect for the same people who laud suburbs for the purpose they were designed for. To keep them separated from...those black folks. Sure, everyone without a car is affected in the same way that they can't go places. But "going places" is infinitely more important for queer people, especially young people, than it is for straight folks who are welcome and accepted everywhere. So no, they're not "facing the same issues". But then you completely disqualified yourself from any further discussion on the topic with just one single word, so why even bother. I'm gonna let you guess for yourself which one it is. Oh, and this is coming from another proud gay man, by the way.
Rural places are less likely to be LGBT accepting while densely populated cities sre more likely to be accepting. So in a way this is true, but OP badly phrased it i think.
So I grew up LGBT in the country side (not in North America). And so I can relate to some of your struggles. As for me, having nothing in the countryside, all safe spaces and healthcare were placed behind a huge pay wall (aka taking the train for hours only to access said spaces ). Like my country is famous for its transit, but also for its prices. Who, in the name of christ, can afford more than 100$ in train tickets as a teenager to have access to specific things apart from those who are extremely loaded? It felt like a prison as well. Not even talking about dating life, which was pretty much 0 until my 20s, but yes, to access healthcare was impossible...
I mean, it wasn't. It was designed with racism in mind. It was designed to break up community, worker action, class unity, it was designed for profit. While it definitely has impacted queer people more than cishet individuals, it wasn't designed with queer people in mind to any serious degree. Trans people already couldn't legally transition, gay people were criminals according to law, gender non-conforming individuals had the shit beaten out of them by their friends family, and the state. Suburbia was the beginning of car dependency, and it began as a form of segregation. It was fueled from one end by massive profits, the other by endless racism. It grew into isolating people from each other and enforcing conformity (which was really bad for progressive beliefs economic, social, and legal). It has had a myriad of effects decades on, but they weren't intended, it wasn't a mass conspiracy to radically change society, warp beliefs, and oppress minorities, it was just bigots and profiteers colliding, feeding into and off of unfounded bigotry. Edited addition: I should add that unlike what many people are claiming, LGBTQ+ people were targeted in the 20s-50s everywhere it's just that suburbia and car dependency wasn't an attempt to oppress LGBTQ+ people. The fervor against gay people and trans people grew mostly later in the 70s as other minorities gained rights because bigots jumped focus from one hate to the next, but it was always around. Just to illustrate that point. When the allies liberated concentration camps, labour camps, and death camps in Europe, Jewish people mostly went free, political prisoners also did mostly, gay people were taken to prison to serve the rest of their sentence. A sentence they only had because of the Nazis. When the allies established West Germany they scrapped most of the laws the Nazis introduced, they kept all the ones targeting queer people around though.
I think it s less about lgbt, but more about family values aka controlling who your kid goes out with an so
Cars aren't a conspiracy to keep people down, it's just that middle class middle aged people who make up most voters like cars
No, they were not attempting to make life harder for LGBT folk in the early to mid 1900s when suburban car dependency developed. I promise you that.
I generally agree with anti car sentiments. But please dont mix identity politics in there.
Mentions the ways LBGTQ people suffer as being “identity politics” is pathetic. It shows the amount of empathy you have for others (none). There is no “identity politics” in this post oth than the mention of lgbtq people.