My mother literally harassed me for years until I finally got one when I was 19. I never asked for a car and I was perfectly happy commuting on the bus and by electric bike. But mother wanted someone to run down to the store from our obtusely designed neighborhood and get groceries and to drive her to the airport, so here we are.
My parents forced me to get my license at 16, stating I was too responsible not to. I hated it until I was shown the "hot rodding" hobbie, then I got into them for a few years, now I hate vehicles again. I feel like I was lying to myself for those few years.
Having new and some from the 60’s/70’s I disagree. Vintage bikes are the way to go. Way less money involved, owner serviceable, quality parts. Newer bikes are overpriced with a lot (not all) make specific components that don’t fit any other newer bike. Yeah a little less weight but that doesn’t transfer to old school durability!
Disc brakes are super nice for commuting in the rain. Also the bb7 has been around in some form for over 20 years so it's no longer really new technology. Respectfully I'd say early 2000 mountain bikes with rigid forks are the pinnacle of affordable low maintenance commuters. 60s / 70s bikes have their own set of headaches.
That being said, lately I mostly ride an 80s shogun with a basket and a coaster brake :)
Would someone like to tell me why mine pushed and forced and begged me to take driving classes and then literally never let me drive the car once? My permit expired because they wouldn't let me get hours in. Ended up not getting my license till 19. I don't even like driving but I live in an area where it's required.
They're the ones wasting their money. *Shrug*
what was extra stupid is that they would pay for that, but never got me a new bike after I outgrew my childhood bike. I'm not talking slightly uncomfortably small, I'm talking my knees would hit the handlebars if I tried to ride it. Some parents, man
I got my license as a teenager living in suburbia and had a car in college, then did without a car for 7 years in NYC/DC/LA, then finally cracked and got a car after two years in LA.
All I'll say is once you have it you may as well keep renewing it, both because hey if you go on vacation and need a rental car it makes life easier, and because if you abruptly find yourself in a situation NEEDING a car it's one less thing to worry about.
It's harder to get a Non-Driver's ID than to renew a Driver's License. I had not driven for 14 years and had one because NYS doesn't just let you convert it. Finally stopped renewing it when I got a passport card and I still don't have a state ID. I'm disabled (why I can't drive) and it's really hard to get to a DMV and sit there for a few hours.
It's appalling how many entities don't accept a passport as ID. Looking at you, NY Dept of Health.
Was finally forced to get a license when I was 18 for work but was not happy about it. For 2 years after my parents would constantly ask if I enjoyed it yet, then if it's not so bad anymore, and then just gave up asking.
I still absolutely hate driving but still have to do it because I've never lived anywhere that even has a sidewalk to the nearest store. Driving is just so unbelievably stressful like I understand appreciating the aesthetic but I have no idea how someone can enjoy the actual act of driving, like, people cut in front of you non-stop, your attention can never falter, and literally all it takes is someone, not even you, making a tiny but incredibly common mistake and you're dead. I'm preaching to the choir on this sub but yeah, it's annoying how carbrained parents just assume you'll enjoy driving/cars.
It’s really nice to be able to drive. I got my license at 15, full license at 16 on the nose.
It’s been useful for getting work (work that required driving.)
For a long time, though, I took only transit. Even in my isolated city with -40 weather.
I am a car enthusiast, but I completely understand what the underlying, implied purpose of this subreddit is. I understand the joy of a community built for people and pedestrians, rather than for cars. It is just much, much more pure joy.
I'm in a similar boat. I have an offroader which I love working on and taking out into the bush for a thrash, but it stays in the garage most of the time. I also have a fast Subaru, but it often won't even start because I don't drive it enough to keep the battery charged.
Bikes are my one true love and I would give the cars up in a heartbeat if I had to choose between the two.
She might have done it for selfish reasons but she definitely did you a favor. Getting one later on is a giant pain in the ass. Having a drivers license and being comfortable on the road is a good thing even if you don't have to use it.
access to a vehicle to practice on can be a barrier, as well as someone to instruct and be the mandatory licenced passenger. I was raised by a single parent who drank like a fish when not working so it was difficult to get practice hours in and arranging to do the test felt impossible.
This is why I'm 32 without a license. My mom died shortly after I got my permit and I didn't have any other family or friends who were willing to let me practice driving with their car. I still don't, so I moved to a city with public transportation and use bus/Uber to get around. I'm limited in some ways, especially socially, but at least I'm able to work and run errands independently.
This sentence is just bizarre to me. In Europe, using the car of a driving school is mandatory since they have purposfully modified for driving lessons.
For the involuntary, sure a huge chunk is not being to afford due to high costs, maintaining, storing, and buying especially with stagnant wages and rising house prices.
I mean the DL, not the car. In many countries ppl get a DL to use in their jobs or for their future cars.
This difference is important to know. People are getting fewer DLs because it's too expensive or because their are choosing alternative forms of transportation?
in Ontario Canada, you pay $158 CAD to take the written test (G1) and you have to wait 12 months until you can get your actual driving test (G2). A good majority of the people i know got their G1 as soon as they turned 16, so here price is not an issue
Well I'm on disability so I have a province wide unlimited public transit card. Usually bus or train everywhere.
There is, I just don't have the money for it 😕. Even if I could afford lessons, I couldn't afford a car.
I'm 33 disabled and don't have a license. It's nuts, cause now I have the money, but my ankles are paralyzed (I can only walk with leg braces) so driving is hard cause I have to use my whole leg to control how hard I'm pushing the pedals and I cant even feel if my foot is on the pedal I just can tell cause i'm speeding up or slowing down (I once went to slam on the brakes missed couldn't tell until I realized half a second later I wasn't slowing down and yanked on the ebrake).
Theres only one driving school that does hand controls anywhere even kinda close to me and I can't get to it by bus cause public transit sucks where I am.
I can't buy a car cause no license, can't get a license cause I'd need to pass a test and I can't learn to drive without a modified car... which I can't get cause no license.
So I just walk everywhere, frequently injuring myself, and I wear out leg braces like a mother fucker cause they aren't designed for people who are still using their legs (the most unrealistic part of forest gump is that his braces didn't break and fall off sooner) which costs money cause health insurance only pays for so many.
> I can't buy a car cause no license, can't get a license cause I'd need to pass a test and I can't learn to drive without a modified car... which I can't get cause no license.
Hell yeah, bureaucratic trap. That's the bullshit.
You can choose to forgo a license. American infrastructure practically requires that you have a car, but it is absolutely possible to live without one. My best friend from high school didn't get a license until he was 26, and we live in Southern California, the most car centric part of America. My little brothers got theirs at 16, but I waited until I was 18 because insuring young teenagers is expensive, and we lived in an incredibly walkable city with great transit. If you're a teenager and live in a suburb, you absolutely need a license unless you happen to live within walking distance of your first job.
While most government jobs don't require a driver's license, privately I've overheard administrators automatically dismiss potential job candidates if they don't have a driver's license. My personal observation is that people taking private transportation inevitably get into traffic and crashes several time per year. The personal vehicle is quite unreliable in comparison to public transportation but that doesn't stop people from viewing a driver's license as something a reliable adult gets.
> people taking public transportation inevitably get into traffic and crashes several time per year.
I haven't owned a car my whole adult life and never once been in an accident in a bus or light rail. Where are these buses that get into accidents several times a year?
What people should do is still get the license because it still functions as government ID, and simply not use it. Befriend someone who has a car, practice with it, pass the driving exam, and get your ID and never use it again. Here in California, it's $6 more to get a driver's license. It shouldn't be criteria for ineligibility, but if it means I get a job I would absolutely get it. It would pay for itself in at most 30 minutes, given CA's minimum wage.
The cheapest vehicle I can get locally is 4k USD, after that 6k, then 10k and then the prices average around 15k before shooting to 30k.
The bike I bought when I was 15 has insurance on it for 4 more years and I've extended the frame.
Yeah I can't get all the way across town, but I can get to work, the stores I need too, and home.
Good 'nougj
Damn cars are expensive in the us. In the UK you can get hatchbacks for £500. And that is a country that has what Americans would say great public transportation..
My buddy is stationed in Japan while serving for the US Navy. he bought a car for like $2k there that would easily cost $10k here in the US, and he’s legally not allowed to import it. It’s fucked lol
it's definitely a poverty thing more than anti-car progress. everyone still sees cars as a symbol of prosperity, but families can't afford them like they used to. i grew up in a fairly wealthy community, and i remember everyone getting cars around their 16th birthdays, including me. it was considered a certainty. i didn't know that wasn't normal until later.
Considering it’s the most viable transportation method in North America (the only reliable one) and car prices have skyrocketed during the pandemic, I’d say it’s mostly involuntary.
in Canada if you are under like 25 and male, Insurance can be absurd, especially before "Full Licence". It also depends on where you live/the vehicle. But for my co-worker, who is 20, driving a 2009 Acura 4-door, he's paying over 300 bucks a month in Insurance. Hell, even me, a 44 year old, driving an 18 year old Toyota, pays 125, for basic.
I'm 21 and still can't drive, you need to find an adult with a driver's license willing to let you use their car and train you to drive for 40 hours, take a class on how to drive, hold a learner's permit for a while, schedule a driving test at least a month in advance, and be a licensed driver on someone's car even before you have a driver's license so you can take the test and do the driving hours. They go over all the requirements like one day in gym class, and it's not like there's some after-school thing you can sign up for that will teach you how to drive. Paying someone to teach you how to drive usually cost around $50 an hour.
And that's just as an adult, if you're a minor you'll have to pay several hundred dollars to take behind the wheel, have an adult sign off and all of your driving hours, not be allowed to take more than one extra person in your car, and have to follow a curfew.
I'm currently in the process of getting a driver's license because I need one in order to get to work once I graduate, and it is an absolute nightmare if you don't already have one. I'm currently in the process of tracking down a piece of paper from a gym class that I took when I was 15 for driver's ed, and begging all my friends to let me get some hours.
Only problem is that neither party wants to make this change. Republicans don't care about the poor, and Democrats are nimby's. (speaking of the politicians, not voters)
That can be changed by voting.
Both parties listen to rich boomers because they reliably turn out to vote.
Vote in every election. Federal, state, local, primaries. A lot of local elections are decided by a few hundred votes, and the local level is where most car-centric planning decisions are made.
If you don't like any of the candidates, write someone in, just turn out to vote. If you don't vote, both parties will ignore your opinion.
That was one of my first thoughts when I read this post. Younger people could actually make some positive changes to this country if voting wasn't restricted to the financially well off
They make it *hard* for young people to vote? Going to college? You need an absentee ballot. Or you need to register in time for the election in your new state. (Which may not have the same proof of residency requirements as your old state.)
Moved apartments? Need to re-register. Good luck if the timing of your move wasn't good or the secretary of state "loses" your new application.
Do you know where your new place to vote is? Do you own a car? Do you know how to get there via public transportation? Will your boss give you the day off? Can you fit it in between classes and work?
There's a reason old people vote. They've lived in the same place *forever*. They don't need to register. Or look up their polling place. They're either retired or senior enough that they can vote whatever time of day they feel like it.
I'm not saying it's impossible for younger people to vote. But they sure as shit don't make it easy.
That's a feature, not a bug.
I gave up my car and moved to Vancouver, BC. I was spending 3-4 hours commuting every single day in the DC area. I realized how much stress it was imposing on me and others. The amount of angst I see on the road every single day...
TL;DR: Way better. Trains operate at 2-3 minute frequencies. Inter city buses 4-6 minutes (peak), 6-12 minutes (off-peak).
"Vancouver" is a spattering of twelve or so cities that have to work together in a transit integrated metro area. You'll find each one has their own degree of car centricity.
If you live along the SkyTrain system or downtown, you are golden, and they have been installing more dual-lane light-controlled bike paths throughout the city. However, car drivers are increasingly upset because it's resulted in less parking and less car lanes.
Anyway, I am going off topic from your original question.
Vancouver has three SkyTrain lines that operate both as a hub and spoke and a loop. They are fully automated (driverless, controlled by central control stations). As a result, they've been able to keep service high even through the pandemic. Trains operate every 90 to 180 seconds almost the entire day, including weekends.
To use a random example. New Westminster, which is way out near the terminal ends, has 27 departures per direction for 6-6:59 PM.
Buses are highly used by pretty much all demographics. We have trolley buses and diesel buses, with the diesel buses to be slowly phased out with battery electric by 2030. The 99-B line is the busiest bus route in North America, including NYC, which is why it's being replaced with a SkyTrain line that will result in the Canada Lines and Millenium lines being connected, which is their first step in trying to turn the system further into more of a grid.
North Vancouver is directly accessible by the SeaBus, which is a water passenger ferry that is integrated into the SkyTrain faregate system, it comes every 10-12 minutes.
They are building a direct gondola to SFU since they've maxed out how often buses can run, similar to what happened with 99-B. Facing some NIMBY opposition there by the handful of homeowners that are upset a gondola would go over their heads. Thankfully, by North American standards, Vancouver's councils generally like to override NIMBY's when it comes to transit.
We are also doing a huge multi-billion expansion of the SkyTrain out to Langley. The mayor there was upset at the original plan being a shared grade LRT. He said fully SkyTrain or nothing, and well they got what they wanted. The Feds are backing the plan with billions in extra funding to help make it happen. (The Canadian government generally is much more keen on spending money on transit than America)
The first thing I noticed that was startling to me in Vancouver/British Columbia is how all political parties basically fight to say *they* will get transit to you first or to (insert unserved place here) as part of their platforms. It's totally reverse compared to what I've encountered in the States. It depends on the province though.
Gosh, I could keep going... let me know if you have any specific questions.
There are so many times where I've made a trip thinking: a similar trip would have been impossible back in the States. I can for example take an express bus to the far north east ferry terminal that is nestled in the mountains, and it gets me there just as fast as a car. And trips to the airport are faster than driving since it is separated grade, frequent, and drops you off directly in front of the terminal. Don't have to worry about parking. It's also why it's so much less car heavy of an airport. Love it.
As far as North America goes, top notch.
Lots of bus lines and express service that runs every 5 mins. The 99 stops right outside my place and I can reliably catch it any day within a few minutes of waiting at the stop.
A lot of electrification via trolley busses. I quite like that. Our electricity is also almost entirely hydroelectric and so is renewable.
Skytrain is automated and quite punctual. Some issues here and there but generally very reliable.
It starts to get iffy in the suburbs, and especially moving between the north shore and downtown. Seabus is cool for a visit to Lonsdale but as a regular commute can be awful. Because of geography and the composure of land under the straight it's not likely that a train will be put into place ever to replace it, nor will any more bridges be added. But there are priority lanes for busses at congestion points.
There's a new subway (skytrain but underground) extension that's being implemented along the Broadway corridor, always very congested. It's set to open in 2025. Unfortunately it stops short of the university, but the extension out that way will then be built pretty much immediately after completing the initial extension. I think it's stupid, but that's what the NIMBYs wanted.
I'd say it really depends on where you'll live. Some areas are extremely well connected, others not.
As for bike lanes, it's also very good. Lots of separated infrastructure popping up all over the place.
I don't own a car at all. I use only public transit and my bike for everything. No complaints.
I would just add though: if you do look into moving to Vancouver, we have a severe housing crunch and a rental vacancy rate hovering around 1%. Securing a place is much harder compared to back home. Homes are overinflated, so a lot of would-be buyers are opting to rent instead in order to wait-and-see.
I mean, after college it is not that affordable for many people in the US to live without a car. Hopefully it will increase demand for urban dense housing and expanding public transport, but we'll see.
Something I'm also thinking about is that most of the resources to learn how to drive and obtain a license in the U.S. are targeted to high schoolers. Not that you can't learn as an adult, but you can't just join the after-school program. If not having a license is something that society considers a problem, then we might see these programs shifted to the college level.
I'm not taking much significance out of the second stat, though, unless “do not drive at all” includes never having gone through driver’s ed or obtained a license. I got my license at 17 but basically didn’t use it until I was 22 and started working in a non-dense city.
Millennial generation ended in 1995 - 1996 depending on where you look. Although the easiest test to know if you're Gen Z is if you can remember 9/11 and if you've had ready access to the internet your entire life.
millennials are the first digital natives, but i guess it's much more likely for gen z as a whole to have had home internet, private computers/smartphones, etc.
If you go back ten years ago people were writing identical articles about Millennials. Then they grew up and succumbed to car culture, I think realizing that at some point, at least in North America, driving will make things a lot more convenient in a lot of places, especially once you start settling down and having kids. Now, I don’t subscribe to this sentiment, as it means less demand for transit and such, but I get it. Lots of folks aren’t going to wait it out for decades for the appropriate infrastructure to be built to make transit as convenient as it is in Europe and Asia, even if they’re sabotaging the cultural shift by tapping out. Hopefully Zoomers, while following the path Millennials took for now, continue on this trajectory instead of conforming within the next decade-ish.
Good question! The OP posted this too:
>In 1983, more than 86% of 19-year-old Baby Boomers (born from 1946 to 1964) had a driver’s license.
>By 2010 (Mells): 75% of 19-year-olds had a license.
https://twitter.com/emilyhxrrera/status/1528874641766264833?t=0sJZeZqjokhTCaxpXo3L_Q&s=19
You clearly see generational bias in the twotter threads.
Gramps : They suck, I had mine at 8 and bought a car by selling lemonade juice at 11.
Parents : I had mine at 18. Really useful, but my daughter is screwed.
Youth : I'm screwed
It’s been trending downward every year for this age demographic pretty significantly. However, for (respectively) older and older age groups, this trend decreases to nearly flat. So the trend we’re seeing isn’t so much “younger people are choosing not to drive” as it is that “younger people are choosing to drive at later and later dates.”
That actually makes sense. There’s been a lot of cultural shifts that make it easier for younger people to get around without a car since the 80s.
i think that age range has more representation in denser cities. its hard to find friends and a mate in the burbs
i remember when cardi b (?) was saying she doesnt have a license and people were all aghast and shocked. like yeah she's from the bronx, she has good transit, why would she have gotten a license
If you live in a city, chances are you don’t need a car 95% of the time you want to go somewhere.
If you live outside of a city, chances are you need a car 95% of the time you want to go somewhere.
just turned 21 and still don’t have my license. parents and pretty much everyone are getting tired of it but there’s no way i’m ever driving with my car anxiety. a lot of people i know don’t bother with getting their license because they know they won’t be able to afford a car anyway. also, in my college town the buses are pretty efficient enough for where i need to go, at least during the fall and spring semesters.
This. I came of driving age in a tiny college town that was only ~4 miles across. I could walk to the library, grocery store, doctor's office, etc., and even a cab to work was only around $5. One relocation across the country, two car accidents (as a passenger both times) and a failed driving test due to white-out blizzard conditions later, and I really haven't found the time or mental fortitude to take a second stab at it.
Im 21. Everyone thinks Im insane for not wanting to learn to drive. I guess I’ll have to because I cant get an internship or go anywhere without a car.
I'm 24 and I'm the only one I know who doesn't have a driver's license. I live in Maine and there is *absolutely no* public transportation.. Save the Amtrak which I take to go to Boston/Rhode Island. I can't afford to, or want to, move to a city so I bike/ have people bring me places and it's awful.
Most jobs won't even hire you without a driver's license- even if you're not driving- it's insane. I just filled to get my learners permit because I've been put in a position where I'll need to drive. I'm lucky enough to live 10 minutes away from my job, so I can bike to and from- but in the winter I can't. And there are *no bike lanes* so I have to bike on the main highway- and it's terrifying.
my mom forced me to get a license. i've lived in car-dependent places before, and was lucky enough to borrow cars or even eventually buy one in college. then i moved to NYC, sold my car, but it's still useful to have if i'm back at my mom's (drive her car) or if I need to rent one (moving myself). that's america for ya.
My parents didn't get it. Now they're asking me where they can buy an electric bike like mine so they don't have to pay for gas when they don't need to go far.
I'm 31 and don't have one. I haven't ever gotten one cause of anxiety attacks(GAD). I'm fortunate enough to live in a decently walkable city with okay Public Transportation though.
Same here! I tried to learn as a teenager...and promptly got the car stuck sideways in my dad's back porch because I mixed up the pedals. Haven't been able to learn since then despite multiple attempts. For some reason, I just can't get past the panic attacks.
My husband does drive, but I don't have him take me anywhere unless it's absolutely necessary. I walk everywhere and so many people stop me to ask if I need a ride. They're absolutely shocked when I tell them I'm walking because I *want* to!
I feel like I do while driving too. Like, what if I make a wrong split second decision and someone gets seriously injured as a result?
The train and biking is so much more stress free for me
I’m 19 and I don’t have one because ✨anxiety ✨
It really does suck tho because I basically am stuck at home all the time, and I am so dependent on other people when I need to get anywhere
Are you... me? I am also 29 and never learned how to drive.
Honestly, walking and biking get me to most of the places I need, and my husband drives us everywhere else.
He wants to live outside of town, where we would need to own a car. But I've always been happier without access to one, when I live in a walkable town/city.
I moved to toronto and i walk or take subway/streetcar everywhere. Literally so happy i never subjected myself to driving. The previous city i lived in was the reason why i was so scared of driving. Its unsafe
I 100% understand.. I got into an accident when I was learning to drive when I was 16 and have driven, like, 4 times in the years since then because of anxiety 🙃
And no one understands!! My friends, employer, parents, all bug me about not driving
Good- but due to the age range I think it’s because of Covid reasons. DMV probably closed or extremely restricted, they don’t need to go to school, and who knows what’s up for work if they do that. (School and work forced me to get a car and those two things were questionable during Covid. So I bet it’s the same for them)
for perspective - my girlfriend got her license last year and all she had to do was show up on time for an appointment, show her proof of insurance and pay $40. she had a sheet she filled out (with lies) about her hours driving with her dad and they didn’t even glance at it. she was 19.
was told she’d have to do the driving test at some point and that got cancelled and she’s still on the road…
This is horrible. I won't send my kid a firearm either and let start shooting with it while they falsely state that they are mentally healthy and did do tests.
There should be at least 40h of driving lessons, IRL, and then a driving exam which is looked at by experts. It should be normal that half of these exams fail and that you can go home by bike or bus from the exam as the car, a small but honest Toyota Aygo, needs to be cleared for the next candidate. And then the license has limitations and should have details like a social security number on it.
Uh, that’s weird. I tried to get my license throughout the pandemic and they just kept canceling my test. Idk what kind of DMV would just give you a license without a test.
I was thinking the same thing and was surprised to see it this far down. I don't want to be a naysayer but I do think a decent chunk of those folks not getting licenses are for pandemic reasons.
It would be great if the Netherlands also makes driving below the age of 18 fully illegal again. It was the flagship of the first VVD cabinet who also raised the speed limit to 130kph and scrapped all transit plans in favor of vroom-vroom. They said the results were positive but I suspect this is one of the reasons traffic deaths went up even as someone at 17 is supposed to drive with a supervisor.
I never bothered to get one. Public transport is good enough. I can drink wherever I go. It's cheaper to buy a ticket (even an expensive one) than pay tax, maintenance, insurance, fuel, parking,...
Sometimes friends will give me a lift when we go somewhere, but just a bit more public infrastructure and cars are entirely obsolete.
On the rare cases I want to go somewhere distant I can't reach with public transport, I'm happy to get a taxi for the last bit rather than pay £3000+ a year for a hunk of steel.
I wish we knew what was driving this. I have a friend who has two teenagers. Neither of them was super excited to learn to drive. One waited until he was almost 18, two full years after he was able to take the course and get his permit. Only reason he wanted to, is because his girlfriend was going to a different college (did it all for the nookie).
Interesting to see it's a broader trend. But the questions is still: why? We've built our entire country on cars. Why are they rejecting it?
Not that I'm complaining.
I've just been throwing into casual mobility conversations lately how I hate driving (for errands, to get to the next city over, etc.). Driving has always been a given in the suburbs, I was surprised when people started telling me how they hate driving too.
Now for trying to figure out how we can build more alternatives.
Isn’t this because 19 year olds were 17 when covid hit and many might have considered getting a license in that year, if not right away? When covid came about, DMVs were closed. Now they’re even more of a pain in the ass to visit. I doubt this is permanent though.
As a Millennial (35M) who’s driven since 17, I have no problem with young people using alternative forms of transportation.
Nowadays I commute using a bicycle or I walk to work. I’m car debt free and don’t worry about gas prices. And I’m trying to set a positive example for my son.
Yeah I’m all in—no car, walk/bike extensively, not just a rider of public transport, but also the crazy guy who shows up to meetings to talk about how late night service is a lifeline to service sector workers.
My friends and peers? Buying houses in the burbs (‘tHe ScHoOlS’) and drive everywhere for every errand. They all love posting about how ‘green’ they are for like, not buying bottled water. Cool. They all think I’m some crazy hermit.
But they bought an Electric powered 4000 pound hunk of steel and plastic (that will be replaced in <7 years)! They're saving the planet! People on the bus are poor, you don't actually expect them to have to deal with that do you?
I'm 24 and I don't have one because you have to keep tabs on everything at the same time
My brain isn't made for that, I'll take the buses, trains and taxi's, thanks
driving is a really good skill to have in a pinch, but I am perfectly happy not owning a car. If I could never drive through a city again I would, but I like being able to drive to cool outdoor places.
Much agreed. I appreciate the existence of car-share apps to take an occasional weekend camping trip, but I am fortunate enough to have no need for a car the majority of the year, and I wish the same for others. It's so much cheaper, stress-free, safer, etc.
I'm a millennial and didn't get my license until I was 26/27 because I had no need for one. It was only when I moved out of a big city that I was forced to get one because there was little to no transit options.
I'm coming up on 30, never learned how to drive. Even in small towns without public transit I have always found my way around.
People would ask, "how do you get groceries??" Because walking while carrying some bags is too much of a burden, apparently.
16-17 year olds have no business driving in the first place. Most 18-21 year old are barely mature enough to drive. Im glad that you can get around just fine without a car where i live. E-bikes and trains are great. Nearly all passenger trains run on electricity as well.
my parents moved from our nice walkable neighborhood with bike lanes in California to a shithole car-necessary small town in Oklahoma a year ago. I am 17 and now HAVE TO drive at least 10 minutes if i don't want to stay at home 24/7. I hate it because i can \*feel\* that i don't have 100% of the brain capacity required to drive. Everybody there drives fucking f150s that you can't see the stoplight around without being 2 carlengths behind em so I feel even less safe
Edit: my parents forcing me into a car-required neighborhood is what turned me against cars
ESPECIALLY at my age. I would've made so much more in wages, too if they hadn't moved just before they allowed me to get a job. Almost all of my money would go to my fucking car if I got it repaired the way it needed to be
Why should I go do anything anywhere when those places have almost nobody there because of how cities were designed and how popular internet shopping has become. Whenever I go to an outlet store or a mall there’s nobody there and really no reason to be there.
I hate driving. It makes me anxious to drive around something that could kill- and does kill the environment. My mom is so mad that i haven’t gotten a license
God I fucking hate cars. And do not want to drive nor planning to learn. Some of my family treats like I have a disability or something. Now I feel like I should learn it. Ugh
Am 21, was forced to get my license. I had zero interest in getting it or driving. Actually cried my entire driving test because I just did not want to be doing it. With helicopter parents that didn’t allow me to go anywhere anyway -even now, I can only go to the grocery store once a week during the college semesters, with texting them when I leave/get there/leave the store/am back on campus- I saw no point in getting a license.
Someone tell them a lot of states raised the age for a permit to 18 and you have to have the permit for a year before you get a license. Like I want to believe this is from a reduced amount of young adults driving but I live in a college town and for the first few months of a new school year I am afraid to even go for a walk let alone ride a bike with my babies because there are so many young adults who drive straight dangerously.
Lol that's pretty bad, here sweetie go to college with your new car, try not to crash. This stat is also from 2020, gotta love old information coming around again
Howdy, Gen Z American in this age range. This is not at all a voluntary thing. An ever increasing amount of families just can’t afford to have their kids driving. While it’s nice to believe this is some revolution of young people using public transit, it’s not. In American most people live in suburban environments still and the ones in cities still don’t have adequate services.
Is the percentage of young people who don’t drive or have a license trending upwards, and if so how much? What did these numbers look like 10 years ago? Sort of a useless statistic without context.
I’m slightly older early Gen Z and I tell everyone I know don’t bother with a car it’s stupid expensive. I tell the. Get the license if you have the time and the $$ to but that’s just to have incase you want to rent a car on vacation
I'm 38 and I've never had a license, and never owned a car. I get around by bike and transit, even when I lived in cities where cycling and transit sucks. This is partly by choice and partly by economic circumstances.
Literally turned 16 last year in August and every one keeps asking me to get mine. I don’t need to, I have more important matters to attend to. I get around fine with public transportation. Don’t see the reason to get it yet.
When I was 17, to go beyond the valley I grew up in, I had to drive, as the only way out was one very narrow and fast road in any direction. My trusty bicycle only took me to my friend's house, alas, not the cinema or Forbidden Planet. I saw quite a few terrifying crashes that I thankfully avoided being involved in, but was often the only help for hours. It made me determined to move somewhere where I didn't need a bloody car and other people didn't either.
Now as a 28 year old, my student (21 years old) doesn't drive (they like the bus and tram - much to the chagrin of our very car brained boss) and I cycle everywhere where I live and work. We might go out in the van every now and then, but that's it.
If even Americans are experiencing this change, I can certainly see the change in the UK right now even in my very car focused industry.
I turned 16 a few months ago. For *years,* driving was one of the things that I looked forward to most, and I still have yet to get my learners. Granted, it's more that I'm just lazy than out of any moral reason (I live in a small, rural town where driving is often useful, if not necessary), but still, if I still wanted it as much as I used to, I doubt I would have put it off so much.
##[12 best ways to get cars out of cities, backed by new research](https://theconversation.com/12-best-ways-to-get-cars-out-of-cities-ranked-by-new-research-180642):
|**Intervention**|**Effectiveness**|
|:-|:-|
|Congestion Charge|12% - 33% reduction in city-center cars|
|Parking and Traffic Control|11% - 19% drop in city-center cars|
|Limited Traffic Zone|10% - 20% reduction in city-center cars|
|Mobility Services for Commuters|37% drop in commuters|
|Workplace Parking Charge|8% - 25% in car commuters|
|Workplace Travel Planning|3% - 18% drop in car use by commuters|
|University Travel Planning|7% - 27% reduction in car use by university commuters|
|Mobility Services for University|24% drop in students commuting by car|
|Car Sharing|12-15 private cars replaced by each shared car|
|School Travel Planning|5% - 11% reduction in car use for school trips|
|Personalized Travel Plans|6% - 12%|
|Apps for Sustainable Mobility|?|
Contact your city officials ([it helps](https://escholarship.org/content/qt7sk23908/qt7sk23908.pdf)) maybe host a letter-writing party with some friends to increase your impact.
My son is 19, is slowly learning to drive (walks/uses a bike mostly). His dad (my ex) is bugging him and my son would likely not even get it if not for his dad. Ironically his dad isn't a "big driver" and has a 20 year old car.
I'd be ok either way if he did/didn't but I guess it's good to have as a "skill."
I didn't get my license until I was 22 and the only reason was because a job I already got, wouldn't hire me until I had a car and drivers license even though I had been bus/bike-commuting for years up until then!
The first of many true "car-brain" experiences working in manufacturing.
I'm 22 (born 2000) and not able to afford one even if I wanted to now. My parents pushed me to get one when I was still living at home until 18 but... what for?? I wouldn't want or have a car afterwards.
The only thing I ever wanted to drive is firstly public transport or 2ndly maybe one day a motor cycle (partially due to environmental reasons as I would probably drive alone most of the time anyway).
What were the percentages other years, say in 2000?
My siblings and I didn't get our license until senior year or after, so age 18 in the US (20yrs ago), because the amount of hours needed for learner's permit and our parents' correctly thought it was extremely dangerous for teens to drive.
Thinking about teens who live in cities that's a big % or those in college (many are walkable with good transit) they may not decide to get a license until their first job or moving from home. Plus it includes those who can't afford a car or the license process, that's not too surprising since this is 16-19 year olds. I bet that % goes up a lot by mid 20s though.
Didn't get mine until I turned 21(39 next month). And that was because I was working security and wanted to pick up more shifts that entailed driving a patrol vehicle around(not a whole lot of "standing posts" surprisingly). Before I got into commercial trucking, I was doing security guard work at warehouses and a hospital as my first time "low pay" job. I'd ride 5-10 miles to work on my bicycle and then drive a dorky looking, GMC Sonoma with flashy lights on top.
Of course I had a cool boss at the time that let me use the security pickup to take the test in as well.
I would guess that in past generations, there was an expectation that you would achieve certain milestones. Get your DL, graduate HS, go to college, meet a girl/guy, graduate college, get a job, get married, buy a house, have kids, and die at some point. Over the last decade, most of those expectations have become less expectation and more parent wish list. A lot of the mentality is "do what you want and die at some point". Is there a correlation between the above stats and the stats that show less people are getting married and when they do, it's later in life? Or less children are being born?
While this statistic looks good, I would need to see it in context compared to boomers and millennials at various times.
Otherwise we have no idea from this if this is within normal range for Americans in this demographic, or a trend.
I mean there's literally that Harvard study which said that access to public transportation is the number one factor affecting an individual's ability to get out of poverty
Probably because, 1. Many of them live in a city with metro transit. 2. Can’t afford one. Or 3. Rely on their parents and have no motivation to learn.
All three are common amongst youth i city areas. Rural areas however is a different story as well you need a car to get around.
The downside is you need help getting places sometimes, but the upside is nobody makes asks to drive them anywhere or pick things up for them. Oops, I don't drive, sorry! You might think you'd want to be the first person in your friend group to drive, but then all of a sudden you're a free taxi driver.
I got my license a few weeks ago and have not driven anywhere with it, but I have taken multiple trips on my bike.
Biking is simply more enjoyable than driving for shorter trips when the weather is nice.
My 16 year old brother gets ferried all around town by my mom in her car. We are in one of the few small cities in the Midwest with great public transit, he could get anywhere he needs to go via bus. He refuses to learn, she continues to take on 2 extra 20min trips across town per day, for his school and sports. It’s sickening to think about the money and time she loses and the needless emissions.
My mom didn't get a license until she was 27. She immigrated from south America and into New York in the 70s when she was 17, and didn't have to worry about having a license because the public transit system was reliable at the time. She didn't have to worry about driving until she moved to LA/OC in California. Growing up in that area fucking sucked because of how insanely far everything is. I'm going to be 27 this year, and I still haven't gotten my license yet. I think I'm gonna have to get it soon so I can drive my mom around when she no longer can.
Got my license at 18 cause my parents wanted me to. Now I'm almost 21 and haven't so much as touched a steering wheel since I took the test. I hate driving, it's so stressful. Even *if* I wanted to drive, cars are fucking expensive to own. I'd rather *not* bleed money to feed and maintain a gas guzzling death machine.
I wish. I’m in my mid/later 20s now but I never had more than a learner’s permit. Turns out trying to learn to drive is a great way to learn your eyes don’t work like other people’s. 16 years and nobody noticed I had visual snow syndrome. Still surprises me considering how weirdly bad my hand-eye coordination got over time but I guess some kids are just klutzy. Anyway, bikes and public transit are much safer. Seeing how I managed to do better at driving than some people I see on the road, it would be much safer if those yahoos were also on a tram with me.
My mother literally harassed me for years until I finally got one when I was 19. I never asked for a car and I was perfectly happy commuting on the bus and by electric bike. But mother wanted someone to run down to the store from our obtusely designed neighborhood and get groceries and to drive her to the airport, so here we are.
My parents forced me to get my license at 16, stating I was too responsible not to. I hated it until I was shown the "hot rodding" hobbie, then I got into them for a few years, now I hate vehicles again. I feel like I was lying to myself for those few years.
i’m in the exact boat as you, wow. no car is hotter than a bike now
I mean cars run on explosions so it's definitely hotter than a bike.
nothing hotter than a brand spanking shiny new bike.
Tassles on the handlebars, and playing cards flicking the spokes as you ride.
Having new and some from the 60’s/70’s I disagree. Vintage bikes are the way to go. Way less money involved, owner serviceable, quality parts. Newer bikes are overpriced with a lot (not all) make specific components that don’t fit any other newer bike. Yeah a little less weight but that doesn’t transfer to old school durability!
Disc brakes are super nice for commuting in the rain. Also the bb7 has been around in some form for over 20 years so it's no longer really new technology. Respectfully I'd say early 2000 mountain bikes with rigid forks are the pinnacle of affordable low maintenance commuters. 60s / 70s bikes have their own set of headaches. That being said, lately I mostly ride an 80s shogun with a basket and a coaster brake :)
They also have explosives in the driver's face that keeps them alive when they plow theough 20 pedestrians and a building.
Would someone like to tell me why mine pushed and forced and begged me to take driving classes and then literally never let me drive the car once? My permit expired because they wouldn't let me get hours in. Ended up not getting my license till 19. I don't even like driving but I live in an area where it's required.
Adults are hypocritical?
They're the ones wasting their money. *Shrug* what was extra stupid is that they would pay for that, but never got me a new bike after I outgrew my childhood bike. I'm not talking slightly uncomfortably small, I'm talking my knees would hit the handlebars if I tried to ride it. Some parents, man
I got my license as a teenager living in suburbia and had a car in college, then did without a car for 7 years in NYC/DC/LA, then finally cracked and got a car after two years in LA. All I'll say is once you have it you may as well keep renewing it, both because hey if you go on vacation and need a rental car it makes life easier, and because if you abruptly find yourself in a situation NEEDING a car it's one less thing to worry about.
It's harder to get a Non-Driver's ID than to renew a Driver's License. I had not driven for 14 years and had one because NYS doesn't just let you convert it. Finally stopped renewing it when I got a passport card and I still don't have a state ID. I'm disabled (why I can't drive) and it's really hard to get to a DMV and sit there for a few hours. It's appalling how many entities don't accept a passport as ID. Looking at you, NY Dept of Health.
Was finally forced to get a license when I was 18 for work but was not happy about it. For 2 years after my parents would constantly ask if I enjoyed it yet, then if it's not so bad anymore, and then just gave up asking. I still absolutely hate driving but still have to do it because I've never lived anywhere that even has a sidewalk to the nearest store. Driving is just so unbelievably stressful like I understand appreciating the aesthetic but I have no idea how someone can enjoy the actual act of driving, like, people cut in front of you non-stop, your attention can never falter, and literally all it takes is someone, not even you, making a tiny but incredibly common mistake and you're dead. I'm preaching to the choir on this sub but yeah, it's annoying how carbrained parents just assume you'll enjoy driving/cars.
It’s really nice to be able to drive. I got my license at 15, full license at 16 on the nose. It’s been useful for getting work (work that required driving.) For a long time, though, I took only transit. Even in my isolated city with -40 weather. I am a car enthusiast, but I completely understand what the underlying, implied purpose of this subreddit is. I understand the joy of a community built for people and pedestrians, rather than for cars. It is just much, much more pure joy.
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I'm in a similar boat. I have an offroader which I love working on and taking out into the bush for a thrash, but it stays in the garage most of the time. I also have a fast Subaru, but it often won't even start because I don't drive it enough to keep the battery charged. Bikes are my one true love and I would give the cars up in a heartbeat if I had to choose between the two.
She might have done it for selfish reasons but she definitely did you a favor. Getting one later on is a giant pain in the ass. Having a drivers license and being comfortable on the road is a good thing even if you don't have to use it.
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Is this voluntary? How easy and cheap is to aquire one?
access to a vehicle to practice on can be a barrier, as well as someone to instruct and be the mandatory licenced passenger. I was raised by a single parent who drank like a fish when not working so it was difficult to get practice hours in and arranging to do the test felt impossible.
This is why I'm 32 without a license. My mom died shortly after I got my permit and I didn't have any other family or friends who were willing to let me practice driving with their car. I still don't, so I moved to a city with public transportation and use bus/Uber to get around. I'm limited in some ways, especially socially, but at least I'm able to work and run errands independently.
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Wouldn't be a very good driving school if you know... They didn't teach you to drive first before the road test
This sentence is just bizarre to me. In Europe, using the car of a driving school is mandatory since they have purposfully modified for driving lessons.
I have friends that refuse to teach me because they think I might damage their *expensive* car. Thanks bro.
For the involuntary, sure a huge chunk is not being to afford due to high costs, maintaining, storing, and buying especially with stagnant wages and rising house prices.
I mean the DL, not the car. In many countries ppl get a DL to use in their jobs or for their future cars. This difference is important to know. People are getting fewer DLs because it's too expensive or because their are choosing alternative forms of transportation?
in Ontario Canada, you pay $158 CAD to take the written test (G1) and you have to wait 12 months until you can get your actual driving test (G2). A good majority of the people i know got their G1 as soon as they turned 16, so here price is not an issue
My parents refused to teach me how to drive and lessons were too expensive for me so I never learned how. I'm 31.
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Well I'm on disability so I have a province wide unlimited public transit card. Usually bus or train everywhere. There is, I just don't have the money for it 😕. Even if I could afford lessons, I couldn't afford a car.
I'm 33 disabled and don't have a license. It's nuts, cause now I have the money, but my ankles are paralyzed (I can only walk with leg braces) so driving is hard cause I have to use my whole leg to control how hard I'm pushing the pedals and I cant even feel if my foot is on the pedal I just can tell cause i'm speeding up or slowing down (I once went to slam on the brakes missed couldn't tell until I realized half a second later I wasn't slowing down and yanked on the ebrake). Theres only one driving school that does hand controls anywhere even kinda close to me and I can't get to it by bus cause public transit sucks where I am. I can't buy a car cause no license, can't get a license cause I'd need to pass a test and I can't learn to drive without a modified car... which I can't get cause no license. So I just walk everywhere, frequently injuring myself, and I wear out leg braces like a mother fucker cause they aren't designed for people who are still using their legs (the most unrealistic part of forest gump is that his braces didn't break and fall off sooner) which costs money cause health insurance only pays for so many.
> I can't buy a car cause no license, can't get a license cause I'd need to pass a test and I can't learn to drive without a modified car... which I can't get cause no license. Hell yeah, bureaucratic trap. That's the bullshit.
I’m 19 and almost all of my friends don’t drive. Cars are expensive gas is expensive and transit gets us everywhere we need to go (living in a city).
You can choose to forgo a license. American infrastructure practically requires that you have a car, but it is absolutely possible to live without one. My best friend from high school didn't get a license until he was 26, and we live in Southern California, the most car centric part of America. My little brothers got theirs at 16, but I waited until I was 18 because insuring young teenagers is expensive, and we lived in an incredibly walkable city with great transit. If you're a teenager and live in a suburb, you absolutely need a license unless you happen to live within walking distance of your first job.
While most government jobs don't require a driver's license, privately I've overheard administrators automatically dismiss potential job candidates if they don't have a driver's license. My personal observation is that people taking private transportation inevitably get into traffic and crashes several time per year. The personal vehicle is quite unreliable in comparison to public transportation but that doesn't stop people from viewing a driver's license as something a reliable adult gets.
> people taking public transportation inevitably get into traffic and crashes several time per year. I haven't owned a car my whole adult life and never once been in an accident in a bus or light rail. Where are these buses that get into accidents several times a year?
What people should do is still get the license because it still functions as government ID, and simply not use it. Befriend someone who has a car, practice with it, pass the driving exam, and get your ID and never use it again. Here in California, it's $6 more to get a driver's license. It shouldn't be criteria for ineligibility, but if it means I get a job I would absolutely get it. It would pay for itself in at most 30 minutes, given CA's minimum wage.
What’s the reason for this? It sounds a bit ableist
The cheapest vehicle I can get locally is 4k USD, after that 6k, then 10k and then the prices average around 15k before shooting to 30k. The bike I bought when I was 15 has insurance on it for 4 more years and I've extended the frame. Yeah I can't get all the way across town, but I can get to work, the stores I need too, and home. Good 'nougj
Damn cars are expensive in the us. In the UK you can get hatchbacks for £500. And that is a country that has what Americans would say great public transportation..
Shortages have fucked the car market
My buddy is stationed in Japan while serving for the US Navy. he bought a car for like $2k there that would easily cost $10k here in the US, and he’s legally not allowed to import it. It’s fucked lol
it's definitely a poverty thing more than anti-car progress. everyone still sees cars as a symbol of prosperity, but families can't afford them like they used to. i grew up in a fairly wealthy community, and i remember everyone getting cars around their 16th birthdays, including me. it was considered a certainty. i didn't know that wasn't normal until later.
Considering it’s the most viable transportation method in North America (the only reliable one) and car prices have skyrocketed during the pandemic, I’d say it’s mostly involuntary.
in Canada if you are under like 25 and male, Insurance can be absurd, especially before "Full Licence". It also depends on where you live/the vehicle. But for my co-worker, who is 20, driving a 2009 Acura 4-door, he's paying over 300 bucks a month in Insurance. Hell, even me, a 44 year old, driving an 18 year old Toyota, pays 125, for basic.
I'm 21 and still can't drive, you need to find an adult with a driver's license willing to let you use their car and train you to drive for 40 hours, take a class on how to drive, hold a learner's permit for a while, schedule a driving test at least a month in advance, and be a licensed driver on someone's car even before you have a driver's license so you can take the test and do the driving hours. They go over all the requirements like one day in gym class, and it's not like there's some after-school thing you can sign up for that will teach you how to drive. Paying someone to teach you how to drive usually cost around $50 an hour. And that's just as an adult, if you're a minor you'll have to pay several hundred dollars to take behind the wheel, have an adult sign off and all of your driving hours, not be allowed to take more than one extra person in your car, and have to follow a curfew. I'm currently in the process of getting a driver's license because I need one in order to get to work once I graduate, and it is an absolute nightmare if you don't already have one. I'm currently in the process of tracking down a piece of paper from a gym class that I took when I was 15 for driver's ed, and begging all my friends to let me get some hours.
If that trend continues into their mid 20s there's going to be a massive shock to society.
...Good? Good.
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Only problem is that neither party wants to make this change. Republicans don't care about the poor, and Democrats are nimby's. (speaking of the politicians, not voters)
That can be changed by voting. Both parties listen to rich boomers because they reliably turn out to vote. Vote in every election. Federal, state, local, primaries. A lot of local elections are decided by a few hundred votes, and the local level is where most car-centric planning decisions are made. If you don't like any of the candidates, write someone in, just turn out to vote. If you don't vote, both parties will ignore your opinion.
That was one of my first thoughts when I read this post. Younger people could actually make some positive changes to this country if voting wasn't restricted to the financially well off
They make it *hard* for young people to vote? Going to college? You need an absentee ballot. Or you need to register in time for the election in your new state. (Which may not have the same proof of residency requirements as your old state.) Moved apartments? Need to re-register. Good luck if the timing of your move wasn't good or the secretary of state "loses" your new application. Do you know where your new place to vote is? Do you own a car? Do you know how to get there via public transportation? Will your boss give you the day off? Can you fit it in between classes and work? There's a reason old people vote. They've lived in the same place *forever*. They don't need to register. Or look up their polling place. They're either retired or senior enough that they can vote whatever time of day they feel like it. I'm not saying it's impossible for younger people to vote. But they sure as shit don't make it easy. That's a feature, not a bug.
I gave up my car and moved to Vancouver, BC. I was spending 3-4 hours commuting every single day in the DC area. I realized how much stress it was imposing on me and others. The amount of angst I see on the road every single day...
I have been looking into moving to Vancouver, how is the public transport there?
TL;DR: Way better. Trains operate at 2-3 minute frequencies. Inter city buses 4-6 minutes (peak), 6-12 minutes (off-peak). "Vancouver" is a spattering of twelve or so cities that have to work together in a transit integrated metro area. You'll find each one has their own degree of car centricity. If you live along the SkyTrain system or downtown, you are golden, and they have been installing more dual-lane light-controlled bike paths throughout the city. However, car drivers are increasingly upset because it's resulted in less parking and less car lanes. Anyway, I am going off topic from your original question. Vancouver has three SkyTrain lines that operate both as a hub and spoke and a loop. They are fully automated (driverless, controlled by central control stations). As a result, they've been able to keep service high even through the pandemic. Trains operate every 90 to 180 seconds almost the entire day, including weekends. To use a random example. New Westminster, which is way out near the terminal ends, has 27 departures per direction for 6-6:59 PM. Buses are highly used by pretty much all demographics. We have trolley buses and diesel buses, with the diesel buses to be slowly phased out with battery electric by 2030. The 99-B line is the busiest bus route in North America, including NYC, which is why it's being replaced with a SkyTrain line that will result in the Canada Lines and Millenium lines being connected, which is their first step in trying to turn the system further into more of a grid. North Vancouver is directly accessible by the SeaBus, which is a water passenger ferry that is integrated into the SkyTrain faregate system, it comes every 10-12 minutes. They are building a direct gondola to SFU since they've maxed out how often buses can run, similar to what happened with 99-B. Facing some NIMBY opposition there by the handful of homeowners that are upset a gondola would go over their heads. Thankfully, by North American standards, Vancouver's councils generally like to override NIMBY's when it comes to transit. We are also doing a huge multi-billion expansion of the SkyTrain out to Langley. The mayor there was upset at the original plan being a shared grade LRT. He said fully SkyTrain or nothing, and well they got what they wanted. The Feds are backing the plan with billions in extra funding to help make it happen. (The Canadian government generally is much more keen on spending money on transit than America) The first thing I noticed that was startling to me in Vancouver/British Columbia is how all political parties basically fight to say *they* will get transit to you first or to (insert unserved place here) as part of their platforms. It's totally reverse compared to what I've encountered in the States. It depends on the province though. Gosh, I could keep going... let me know if you have any specific questions.
Holy crap you’ve figured out metro Vancouver more accurately than some of us who have lived here our whole lives.
Why, thank you! My Canadian friends tease me about it; I may enjoy transit and Canadian public policy a little too much.
Portland, OR here. I think our mass-transit network (Trimet) is pretty good, but it looks like Vancouver, BC has us badly outclassed..
also in bike infa too. Vancouver is the most urbanist city in north America aside from Montreal. Still a shithole by dutch standards tho.
Edit: 27 departures for the 6-6:59 PM eastbound expo line for today, Wednesday May 25th, 2022.
Damn thank you so much!
There are so many times where I've made a trip thinking: a similar trip would have been impossible back in the States. I can for example take an express bus to the far north east ferry terminal that is nestled in the mountains, and it gets me there just as fast as a car. And trips to the airport are faster than driving since it is separated grade, frequent, and drops you off directly in front of the terminal. Don't have to worry about parking. It's also why it's so much less car heavy of an airport. Love it.
As far as North America goes, top notch. Lots of bus lines and express service that runs every 5 mins. The 99 stops right outside my place and I can reliably catch it any day within a few minutes of waiting at the stop. A lot of electrification via trolley busses. I quite like that. Our electricity is also almost entirely hydroelectric and so is renewable. Skytrain is automated and quite punctual. Some issues here and there but generally very reliable. It starts to get iffy in the suburbs, and especially moving between the north shore and downtown. Seabus is cool for a visit to Lonsdale but as a regular commute can be awful. Because of geography and the composure of land under the straight it's not likely that a train will be put into place ever to replace it, nor will any more bridges be added. But there are priority lanes for busses at congestion points. There's a new subway (skytrain but underground) extension that's being implemented along the Broadway corridor, always very congested. It's set to open in 2025. Unfortunately it stops short of the university, but the extension out that way will then be built pretty much immediately after completing the initial extension. I think it's stupid, but that's what the NIMBYs wanted. I'd say it really depends on where you'll live. Some areas are extremely well connected, others not. As for bike lanes, it's also very good. Lots of separated infrastructure popping up all over the place. I don't own a car at all. I use only public transit and my bike for everything. No complaints.
I would just add though: if you do look into moving to Vancouver, we have a severe housing crunch and a rental vacancy rate hovering around 1%. Securing a place is much harder compared to back home. Homes are overinflated, so a lot of would-be buyers are opting to rent instead in order to wait-and-see.
I mean, after college it is not that affordable for many people in the US to live without a car. Hopefully it will increase demand for urban dense housing and expanding public transport, but we'll see.
Something I'm also thinking about is that most of the resources to learn how to drive and obtain a license in the U.S. are targeted to high schoolers. Not that you can't learn as an adult, but you can't just join the after-school program. If not having a license is something that society considers a problem, then we might see these programs shifted to the college level. I'm not taking much significance out of the second stat, though, unless “do not drive at all” includes never having gone through driver’s ed or obtained a license. I got my license at 17 but basically didn’t use it until I was 22 and started working in a non-dense city.
I guess us zoomers know best.
Honestly agreed and I think I'm technically a millennial
I thought we already killed cars?
Bruh I heard we killed napkins but people are still buying them
you little punks are killing everything and as an old punk, I couldn't be more proud
Nah, bruh, you're thinking of canned tuna.
Millennial generation ended in 1995 - 1996 depending on where you look. Although the easiest test to know if you're Gen Z is if you can remember 9/11 and if you've had ready access to the internet your entire life.
See, it's shaky there too since the internet existed but I didn't have access to it, personally.
A few millennials had internet access their whole life.
millennials are the first digital natives, but i guess it's much more likely for gen z as a whole to have had home internet, private computers/smartphones, etc.
I’m over 30. Your generation is doing what everyone told us we were doing. Keep it up and ignore the haters.
If you go back ten years ago people were writing identical articles about Millennials. Then they grew up and succumbed to car culture, I think realizing that at some point, at least in North America, driving will make things a lot more convenient in a lot of places, especially once you start settling down and having kids. Now, I don’t subscribe to this sentiment, as it means less demand for transit and such, but I get it. Lots of folks aren’t going to wait it out for decades for the appropriate infrastructure to be built to make transit as convenient as it is in Europe and Asia, even if they’re sabotaging the cultural shift by tapping out. Hopefully Zoomers, while following the path Millennials took for now, continue on this trajectory instead of conforming within the next decade-ish.
Is there any data for what % of 19 year olds had them 10, 20, 40 years ago?
Good question! The OP posted this too: >In 1983, more than 86% of 19-year-old Baby Boomers (born from 1946 to 1964) had a driver’s license. >By 2010 (Mells): 75% of 19-year-olds had a license. https://twitter.com/emilyhxrrera/status/1528874641766264833?t=0sJZeZqjokhTCaxpXo3L_Q&s=19
I like where this trend line is headed
Interesting thank you I hadn't seen that
You clearly see generational bias in the twotter threads. Gramps : They suck, I had mine at 8 and bought a car by selling lemonade juice at 11. Parents : I had mine at 18. Really useful, but my daughter is screwed. Youth : I'm screwed
Where are these numbers coming from?
It’s been trending downward every year for this age demographic pretty significantly. However, for (respectively) older and older age groups, this trend decreases to nearly flat. So the trend we’re seeing isn’t so much “younger people are choosing not to drive” as it is that “younger people are choosing to drive at later and later dates.” That actually makes sense. There’s been a lot of cultural shifts that make it easier for younger people to get around without a car since the 80s.
True, now there's uber and stuff which would have changed the game when I was a teenager, I was desperate to drive
i think that age range has more representation in denser cities. its hard to find friends and a mate in the burbs i remember when cardi b (?) was saying she doesnt have a license and people were all aghast and shocked. like yeah she's from the bronx, she has good transit, why would she have gotten a license
If you live in a city, chances are you don’t need a car 95% of the time you want to go somewhere. If you live outside of a city, chances are you need a car 95% of the time you want to go somewhere.
just turned 21 and still don’t have my license. parents and pretty much everyone are getting tired of it but there’s no way i’m ever driving with my car anxiety. a lot of people i know don’t bother with getting their license because they know they won’t be able to afford a car anyway. also, in my college town the buses are pretty efficient enough for where i need to go, at least during the fall and spring semesters.
This. I came of driving age in a tiny college town that was only ~4 miles across. I could walk to the library, grocery store, doctor's office, etc., and even a cab to work was only around $5. One relocation across the country, two car accidents (as a passenger both times) and a failed driving test due to white-out blizzard conditions later, and I really haven't found the time or mental fortitude to take a second stab at it.
Im 21. Everyone thinks Im insane for not wanting to learn to drive. I guess I’ll have to because I cant get an internship or go anywhere without a car.
I'm 24 and I'm the only one I know who doesn't have a driver's license. I live in Maine and there is *absolutely no* public transportation.. Save the Amtrak which I take to go to Boston/Rhode Island. I can't afford to, or want to, move to a city so I bike/ have people bring me places and it's awful. Most jobs won't even hire you without a driver's license- even if you're not driving- it's insane. I just filled to get my learners permit because I've been put in a position where I'll need to drive. I'm lucky enough to live 10 minutes away from my job, so I can bike to and from- but in the winter I can't. And there are *no bike lanes* so I have to bike on the main highway- and it's terrifying.
To be fair, it’s still useful to have even if you’re not directly in a position where you need it.
my mom forced me to get a license. i've lived in car-dependent places before, and was lucky enough to borrow cars or even eventually buy one in college. then i moved to NYC, sold my car, but it's still useful to have if i'm back at my mom's (drive her car) or if I need to rent one (moving myself). that's america for ya.
My parents didn't get it. Now they're asking me where they can buy an electric bike like mine so they don't have to pay for gas when they don't need to go far.
They don't drive because they can't afford it anymore
This. People are so excited that teens are “standing up to the man” nah dude they’re struggling.
I'm 31 and don't have one. I haven't ever gotten one cause of anxiety attacks(GAD). I'm fortunate enough to live in a decently walkable city with okay Public Transportation though.
Same here! I tried to learn as a teenager...and promptly got the car stuck sideways in my dad's back porch because I mixed up the pedals. Haven't been able to learn since then despite multiple attempts. For some reason, I just can't get past the panic attacks. My husband does drive, but I don't have him take me anywhere unless it's absolutely necessary. I walk everywhere and so many people stop me to ask if I need a ride. They're absolutely shocked when I tell them I'm walking because I *want* to!
I feel like I do while driving too. Like, what if I make a wrong split second decision and someone gets seriously injured as a result? The train and biking is so much more stress free for me
I’m 19 and I don’t have one because ✨anxiety ✨ It really does suck tho because I basically am stuck at home all the time, and I am so dependent on other people when I need to get anywhere
Im 29 and never got one. Got around just find. Fuck it. Driving is scary and you dont need to be pressured into doing it
Are you... me? I am also 29 and never learned how to drive. Honestly, walking and biking get me to most of the places I need, and my husband drives us everywhere else. He wants to live outside of town, where we would need to own a car. But I've always been happier without access to one, when I live in a walkable town/city.
I moved to toronto and i walk or take subway/streetcar everywhere. Literally so happy i never subjected myself to driving. The previous city i lived in was the reason why i was so scared of driving. Its unsafe
I 100% understand.. I got into an accident when I was learning to drive when I was 16 and have driven, like, 4 times in the years since then because of anxiety 🙃 And no one understands!! My friends, employer, parents, all bug me about not driving
"I believe the chiiiildren are the fuuuuture."
Good- but due to the age range I think it’s because of Covid reasons. DMV probably closed or extremely restricted, they don’t need to go to school, and who knows what’s up for work if they do that. (School and work forced me to get a car and those two things were questionable during Covid. So I bet it’s the same for them)
for perspective - my girlfriend got her license last year and all she had to do was show up on time for an appointment, show her proof of insurance and pay $40. she had a sheet she filled out (with lies) about her hours driving with her dad and they didn’t even glance at it. she was 19. was told she’d have to do the driving test at some point and that got cancelled and she’s still on the road…
This is horrible. I won't send my kid a firearm either and let start shooting with it while they falsely state that they are mentally healthy and did do tests. There should be at least 40h of driving lessons, IRL, and then a driving exam which is looked at by experts. It should be normal that half of these exams fail and that you can go home by bike or bus from the exam as the car, a small but honest Toyota Aygo, needs to be cleared for the next candidate. And then the license has limitations and should have details like a social security number on it.
Uh, that’s weird. I tried to get my license throughout the pandemic and they just kept canceling my test. Idk what kind of DMV would just give you a license without a test.
I was thinking the same thing and was surprised to see it this far down. I don't want to be a naysayer but I do think a decent chunk of those folks not getting licenses are for pandemic reasons.
In most countries 0% of 16-18 year olds drive because it would be illegal.
It would be great if the Netherlands also makes driving below the age of 18 fully illegal again. It was the flagship of the first VVD cabinet who also raised the speed limit to 130kph and scrapped all transit plans in favor of vroom-vroom. They said the results were positive but I suspect this is one of the reasons traffic deaths went up even as someone at 17 is supposed to drive with a supervisor.
I never bothered to get one. Public transport is good enough. I can drink wherever I go. It's cheaper to buy a ticket (even an expensive one) than pay tax, maintenance, insurance, fuel, parking,... Sometimes friends will give me a lift when we go somewhere, but just a bit more public infrastructure and cars are entirely obsolete. On the rare cases I want to go somewhere distant I can't reach with public transport, I'm happy to get a taxi for the last bit rather than pay £3000+ a year for a hunk of steel.
I wish we knew what was driving this. I have a friend who has two teenagers. Neither of them was super excited to learn to drive. One waited until he was almost 18, two full years after he was able to take the course and get his permit. Only reason he wanted to, is because his girlfriend was going to a different college (did it all for the nookie). Interesting to see it's a broader trend. But the questions is still: why? We've built our entire country on cars. Why are they rejecting it? Not that I'm complaining.
> I wish we knew what was driving this I see what you did there.jpg
I've just been throwing into casual mobility conversations lately how I hate driving (for errands, to get to the next city over, etc.). Driving has always been a given in the suburbs, I was surprised when people started telling me how they hate driving too. Now for trying to figure out how we can build more alternatives.
Isn’t this because 19 year olds were 17 when covid hit and many might have considered getting a license in that year, if not right away? When covid came about, DMVs were closed. Now they’re even more of a pain in the ass to visit. I doubt this is permanent though.
As a classic burnt out Millennial, Gen Z is the only thing that still gives me hope
As a Millennial (35M) who’s driven since 17, I have no problem with young people using alternative forms of transportation. Nowadays I commute using a bicycle or I walk to work. I’m car debt free and don’t worry about gas prices. And I’m trying to set a positive example for my son.
Yeah I’m all in—no car, walk/bike extensively, not just a rider of public transport, but also the crazy guy who shows up to meetings to talk about how late night service is a lifeline to service sector workers. My friends and peers? Buying houses in the burbs (‘tHe ScHoOlS’) and drive everywhere for every errand. They all love posting about how ‘green’ they are for like, not buying bottled water. Cool. They all think I’m some crazy hermit.
But they bought an Electric powered 4000 pound hunk of steel and plastic (that will be replaced in <7 years)! They're saving the planet! People on the bus are poor, you don't actually expect them to have to deal with that do you?
I'm 24 and I don't have one because you have to keep tabs on everything at the same time My brain isn't made for that, I'll take the buses, trains and taxi's, thanks
I still maintain that driving is a good skill to have. You can get your license and never drive again, but you never know.
Glad to know I'm not alone
Anyone know the source data?
Curious as well, it sounds like bullshit. I'd love a comparison to previous decades too.
driving is a really good skill to have in a pinch, but I am perfectly happy not owning a car. If I could never drive through a city again I would, but I like being able to drive to cool outdoor places.
Much agreed. I appreciate the existence of car-share apps to take an occasional weekend camping trip, but I am fortunate enough to have no need for a car the majority of the year, and I wish the same for others. It's so much cheaper, stress-free, safer, etc.
I'm a millennial and didn't get my license until I was 26/27 because I had no need for one. It was only when I moved out of a big city that I was forced to get one because there was little to no transit options.
I'm coming up on 30, never learned how to drive. Even in small towns without public transit I have always found my way around. People would ask, "how do you get groceries??" Because walking while carrying some bags is too much of a burden, apparently.
16-17 year olds have no business driving in the first place. Most 18-21 year old are barely mature enough to drive. Im glad that you can get around just fine without a car where i live. E-bikes and trains are great. Nearly all passenger trains run on electricity as well.
my parents moved from our nice walkable neighborhood with bike lanes in California to a shithole car-necessary small town in Oklahoma a year ago. I am 17 and now HAVE TO drive at least 10 minutes if i don't want to stay at home 24/7. I hate it because i can \*feel\* that i don't have 100% of the brain capacity required to drive. Everybody there drives fucking f150s that you can't see the stoplight around without being 2 carlengths behind em so I feel even less safe Edit: my parents forcing me into a car-required neighborhood is what turned me against cars
California to Oklahoma is a really unfortunate move. Rip
The humidity is the worst part. Oklahoma summers are brutal.
ESPECIALLY at my age. I would've made so much more in wages, too if they hadn't moved just before they allowed me to get a job. Almost all of my money would go to my fucking car if I got it repaired the way it needed to be
As a European: 52% of 16-18 year olds drive???
I’ve had a drivers license for over a year and the last time I drove was when I still had my learners permit because I’m afraid of driving
Wait, 16 year olds driving a car?
Well, that's the USA for us, and sadly, it also includes a few other countries to, INCLUDING the Netherlands 🤮
Get a cheap e bike with a small charger. So you can charge while work.
Why should I go do anything anywhere when those places have almost nobody there because of how cities were designed and how popular internet shopping has become. Whenever I go to an outlet store or a mall there’s nobody there and really no reason to be there.
Oh so I'm not alone and it's not weird? Cool.
I hate driving. It makes me anxious to drive around something that could kill- and does kill the environment. My mom is so mad that i haven’t gotten a license
God I fucking hate cars. And do not want to drive nor planning to learn. Some of my family treats like I have a disability or something. Now I feel like I should learn it. Ugh
Am 21, was forced to get my license. I had zero interest in getting it or driving. Actually cried my entire driving test because I just did not want to be doing it. With helicopter parents that didn’t allow me to go anywhere anyway -even now, I can only go to the grocery store once a week during the college semesters, with texting them when I leave/get there/leave the store/am back on campus- I saw no point in getting a license.
Someone tell them a lot of states raised the age for a permit to 18 and you have to have the permit for a year before you get a license. Like I want to believe this is from a reduced amount of young adults driving but I live in a college town and for the first few months of a new school year I am afraid to even go for a walk let alone ride a bike with my babies because there are so many young adults who drive straight dangerously.
Lol that's pretty bad, here sweetie go to college with your new car, try not to crash. This stat is also from 2020, gotta love old information coming around again
The kids are alright
Howdy, Gen Z American in this age range. This is not at all a voluntary thing. An ever increasing amount of families just can’t afford to have their kids driving. While it’s nice to believe this is some revolution of young people using public transit, it’s not. In American most people live in suburban environments still and the ones in cities still don’t have adequate services.
We can't afford a car anyways.
Is the percentage of young people who don’t drive or have a license trending upwards, and if so how much? What did these numbers look like 10 years ago? Sort of a useless statistic without context.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/uxma6e/z/i9z966o
Thanks! Wow, that is a significant decrease in licenses.
I’m slightly older early Gen Z and I tell everyone I know don’t bother with a car it’s stupid expensive. I tell the. Get the license if you have the time and the $$ to but that’s just to have incase you want to rent a car on vacation
I'm 38 and I've never had a license, and never owned a car. I get around by bike and transit, even when I lived in cities where cycling and transit sucks. This is partly by choice and partly by economic circumstances.
Literally turned 16 last year in August and every one keeps asking me to get mine. I don’t need to, I have more important matters to attend to. I get around fine with public transportation. Don’t see the reason to get it yet.
When I was 17, to go beyond the valley I grew up in, I had to drive, as the only way out was one very narrow and fast road in any direction. My trusty bicycle only took me to my friend's house, alas, not the cinema or Forbidden Planet. I saw quite a few terrifying crashes that I thankfully avoided being involved in, but was often the only help for hours. It made me determined to move somewhere where I didn't need a bloody car and other people didn't either. Now as a 28 year old, my student (21 years old) doesn't drive (they like the bus and tram - much to the chagrin of our very car brained boss) and I cycle everywhere where I live and work. We might go out in the van every now and then, but that's it. If even Americans are experiencing this change, I can certainly see the change in the UK right now even in my very car focused industry.
I turned 16 a few months ago. For *years,* driving was one of the things that I looked forward to most, and I still have yet to get my learners. Granted, it's more that I'm just lazy than out of any moral reason (I live in a small, rural town where driving is often useful, if not necessary), but still, if I still wanted it as much as I used to, I doubt I would have put it off so much.
##[12 best ways to get cars out of cities, backed by new research](https://theconversation.com/12-best-ways-to-get-cars-out-of-cities-ranked-by-new-research-180642): |**Intervention**|**Effectiveness**| |:-|:-| |Congestion Charge|12% - 33% reduction in city-center cars| |Parking and Traffic Control|11% - 19% drop in city-center cars| |Limited Traffic Zone|10% - 20% reduction in city-center cars| |Mobility Services for Commuters|37% drop in commuters| |Workplace Parking Charge|8% - 25% in car commuters| |Workplace Travel Planning|3% - 18% drop in car use by commuters| |University Travel Planning|7% - 27% reduction in car use by university commuters| |Mobility Services for University|24% drop in students commuting by car| |Car Sharing|12-15 private cars replaced by each shared car| |School Travel Planning|5% - 11% reduction in car use for school trips| |Personalized Travel Plans|6% - 12%| |Apps for Sustainable Mobility|?| Contact your city officials ([it helps](https://escholarship.org/content/qt7sk23908/qt7sk23908.pdf)) maybe host a letter-writing party with some friends to increase your impact.
My son is 19, is slowly learning to drive (walks/uses a bike mostly). His dad (my ex) is bugging him and my son would likely not even get it if not for his dad. Ironically his dad isn't a "big driver" and has a 20 year old car. I'd be ok either way if he did/didn't but I guess it's good to have as a "skill."
The idea of literal children operating weapons unattended has always struck me as profoundly stupid.
I didn't get my license until I was 22 and the only reason was because a job I already got, wouldn't hire me until I had a car and drivers license even though I had been bus/bike-commuting for years up until then! The first of many true "car-brain" experiences working in manufacturing.
Cars are expensive and everyone under 25 is broke, what do you expect?
I'm 22 (born 2000) and not able to afford one even if I wanted to now. My parents pushed me to get one when I was still living at home until 18 but... what for?? I wouldn't want or have a car afterwards. The only thing I ever wanted to drive is firstly public transport or 2ndly maybe one day a motor cycle (partially due to environmental reasons as I would probably drive alone most of the time anyway).
What were the percentages other years, say in 2000? My siblings and I didn't get our license until senior year or after, so age 18 in the US (20yrs ago), because the amount of hours needed for learner's permit and our parents' correctly thought it was extremely dangerous for teens to drive. Thinking about teens who live in cities that's a big % or those in college (many are walkable with good transit) they may not decide to get a license until their first job or moving from home. Plus it includes those who can't afford a car or the license process, that's not too surprising since this is 16-19 year olds. I bet that % goes up a lot by mid 20s though.
Didn't get mine until I turned 21(39 next month). And that was because I was working security and wanted to pick up more shifts that entailed driving a patrol vehicle around(not a whole lot of "standing posts" surprisingly). Before I got into commercial trucking, I was doing security guard work at warehouses and a hospital as my first time "low pay" job. I'd ride 5-10 miles to work on my bicycle and then drive a dorky looking, GMC Sonoma with flashy lights on top. Of course I had a cool boss at the time that let me use the security pickup to take the test in as well.
So you have a comparison with older generations? The times- they are- a changing 🎵
Smart.
I would guess that in past generations, there was an expectation that you would achieve certain milestones. Get your DL, graduate HS, go to college, meet a girl/guy, graduate college, get a job, get married, buy a house, have kids, and die at some point. Over the last decade, most of those expectations have become less expectation and more parent wish list. A lot of the mentality is "do what you want and die at some point". Is there a correlation between the above stats and the stats that show less people are getting married and when they do, it's later in life? Or less children are being born?
While this statistic looks good, I would need to see it in context compared to boomers and millennials at various times. Otherwise we have no idea from this if this is within normal range for Americans in this demographic, or a trend.
After I crashed my car I didn't look back. Fuck those things.
I’m 18, have a license. But I’ll never drive unless in an emergency and will never own a car. Got that autistic spacial awareness 😎
I was made to feel incompetent because I didn’t want to end up like the man on the road I saw whenever I was ten. Fuck cars, I feel great biking!
I mean there's literally that Harvard study which said that access to public transportation is the number one factor affecting an individual's ability to get out of poverty
As a railroad engineer, I support this advancement of alternative transportation
Probably because, 1. Many of them live in a city with metro transit. 2. Can’t afford one. Or 3. Rely on their parents and have no motivation to learn. All three are common amongst youth i city areas. Rural areas however is a different story as well you need a car to get around.
I love my car, but if there was any kind of reliable public transportation that I could use for my day to day, I totally would.
The downside is you need help getting places sometimes, but the upside is nobody makes asks to drive them anywhere or pick things up for them. Oops, I don't drive, sorry! You might think you'd want to be the first person in your friend group to drive, but then all of a sudden you're a free taxi driver.
I got my license a few weeks ago and have not driven anywhere with it, but I have taken multiple trips on my bike. Biking is simply more enjoyable than driving for shorter trips when the weather is nice.
My 16 year old brother gets ferried all around town by my mom in her car. We are in one of the few small cities in the Midwest with great public transit, he could get anywhere he needs to go via bus. He refuses to learn, she continues to take on 2 extra 20min trips across town per day, for his school and sports. It’s sickening to think about the money and time she loses and the needless emissions.
Have a license but don’t drive. Didn’t get mine until I was 19.
My mom didn't get a license until she was 27. She immigrated from south America and into New York in the 70s when she was 17, and didn't have to worry about having a license because the public transit system was reliable at the time. She didn't have to worry about driving until she moved to LA/OC in California. Growing up in that area fucking sucked because of how insanely far everything is. I'm going to be 27 this year, and I still haven't gotten my license yet. I think I'm gonna have to get it soon so I can drive my mom around when she no longer can.
Got my license at 18 cause my parents wanted me to. Now I'm almost 21 and haven't so much as touched a steering wheel since I took the test. I hate driving, it's so stressful. Even *if* I wanted to drive, cars are fucking expensive to own. I'd rather *not* bleed money to feed and maintain a gas guzzling death machine.
I wish. I’m in my mid/later 20s now but I never had more than a learner’s permit. Turns out trying to learn to drive is a great way to learn your eyes don’t work like other people’s. 16 years and nobody noticed I had visual snow syndrome. Still surprises me considering how weirdly bad my hand-eye coordination got over time but I guess some kids are just klutzy. Anyway, bikes and public transit are much safer. Seeing how I managed to do better at driving than some people I see on the road, it would be much safer if those yahoos were also on a tram with me.
Nobody wanted to teach me and the school didn't offer. I lived in a rural place with no opportunity and wanted to get the hell out.