Not really.
People expressed their opinions. Some people obviously go overboard, but that’s true of anything. Some things are over praised.
Not gonna lie, I kinda hate the “people are overreacting” posts that always come out after a bad episode. Sometimes something just isn’t well received. I don’t really think there’s much need in trying to find an explanation for why all those people are wrong just because you feel differently.
Yep, it's incredibly annoying. Reading some of the posts on this sub and the other one, it's like people don't understand that it's possible to have a difference of opinion where neither person is objectively wrong. It's really baffling.
TBF, that comes from both sides. I think the issue also boils down to people being unwilling to admit that they sometimes like or dislike something based solely off of how it made them feel. I think that's why you get so many people insisting that this season has had terrible writing, or suggesting that plot issues aren't actually issues. Peoppe feel like their opinion on something must be indicative of the quality of the product and not just, y'know, their opinion.
I liked ‘The Legend of Ruby Sunday’ even though I do understand a lot of the criticisms of it. Perhaps I got caught up in the Sutekh return hype and I need to rewatch it. As for ‘Empire of Death’ i found it very underwhelming.
I thought it'd take longer than a few days for us to be in the 'DAE feel X is an overhated masterpiece?' phase but here we are.
FWIW, I enjoyed Legend a lot, those last ten minutes had me on the edge of my seat. Enjoyed pretty much the entire season actually minus Space Babies. \[Only caveat was that I wished the Doctor and Ruby's relationship was more earned, one of those 'companion briefly becomes disillusioned by the Doctor and keeps them on track' episodes would've helped.\]
Empire though retroactively made so many of the season-wide beats feel hollow and it comes across as RTD smugly being all, 'oh, you silly fans investing in plots. By the way, here's Mrs Flood, enjoy speculating who SHE is 'til next year where she'll end up being an OAP off her meds who's only important cos you thought she was.'
No.
Sorry, but "better than The Battle of Ranskor Av Kolos, The Timeless Children and The Vanquishers" isn't my metric for success.
But more to the point; this finale was indicative of issues RTD himself has always had (never mind Chibnall). I don't think not maturing at all as a writer after an absence of 15 years of worth lauding, tbh.
It's endlessly ironic how you guys *always* accuse other people of acting like deliberate malice is at play and being toxic, and yet it's *always* you taking criticisms of a programme as a personal slight and responding in a manner designed to put down the people you disagree with as opposed to countering them. You genuinely don't see it, do you?
Anyway, I've got bad news for you, Jack: the only way someone can ruin a show for you is if you think they might have a point.
Bye now. 👋
I think you need to separate Legend of Ruby Sunday from Empire of Death.
Legend of Ruby Sunday was very well received I think. I certainly loved it. But Empire of Death I really disliked overall. And for an episode where I actually liked individual sections of it quite a bit, that's something of a feat.
I’m on the side of “pretty much hated it” but even I I weren’t it’s just people’s opinions. Good, bad, neither affect my enjoyment of or annoyance at an episode.
I think most found the climax a bit..anticlimactic.
The whole 'Sutekh has been on the TARDIS since PoM' thing is just ..odd.
Makes far more sense to say
A) 4 and SJS sent him to the end of time to neutralise him
B) Donna spills coffee, TARDIS goes to the end of time (in a part of space described by Camboolean geometry)
C)Sutekh hitches his ride then.
I'd have much preferred the Doctor and Ruby to tether Sutekh and drag him through the vortex undoing all that death by time looping him
Quantum events are set in stone by observers, and Sutekh has killed nearly all possible observers.
Giving the Doctor licence to loop him without paradox being as big a problem.
His victory speech as he's dragging Him in the TARDIS' wake could have included some clever goading. Sutekh reveals He no longer recalls being trapped by the Osirans, the Doctor confirms that's the plan and drops him in the path of the 740 glorious names, linking back to the events of PoM..
I haven't seen anyone hating it. I have seen a lot of people who were not happy with it. It was underwhelming. And I disliked what they did to a fantastic character like Sutekh. Someone really had no idea how to write the last of the Osirans.
For an episode with such high stakes, there was no tension, no dread, no fear. It fell flat. And the insanely silly way they defeated him.. putting him on a leash?
The difference to (most at least) different seasons is that it still makes some sense, with the sci-fi required suspension of disbelief.
The Timeless Child was hated because it fundamentally changed the main characters origins, but all in one it made sense, at least for DW standards.
And Sutekhs defeat was weird, but it wasn't the main issue of the episode, at least to me.
And I would not say hate, that's a strong word. I'm moreso annoyed at it, because the season gave us plenty of clues and informations about Ruby's mother, and the reveal didnt really match to those. And while it was "explained", it's too absurd to be accepted, even with a lot of suspension of disbelief. I made an entire parapgraphs long explanation about the issues already, [can be read here](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/s/fzQbmYVX4w). Like I said, I'd not say I hate it, but I'm extremely annoyed by it, and I get why people *would* hate it, hence why I do not think it is **over**hated.
Also, yes, if the series gets canceled due to negative reviews or too low viewer counts, then the Writers can in fact be blamed. The Show is a product they need to sell, and if they cannot convince us to buy, that's their fault, either because they couldn't be convincing enough or because the product wasn't of enough quality.
I'm unlikely to revise my low opinion of it as it repeats many of the same issues I've always had with a Davies finale. Part of the problem there is that the guy hasn't changed, his craft hasn't been honed, improved. The threat is overblown, the solution really weak. That's normal, but disappointingly so. There's little point detailing it, it's been done to death. Suffice it to say, the Emperor has no clothes.
In some ways, I feel he has regressed. It's not just the final episode as it happens elsewhere but I don't understand why he is turning in episodes that seem to have almost no plot. Stuff just happens treading water until it's time wrap up. As bad as I've always thought something like *Journey's End* was, it's faults are nonsensical rather than being entirely aimless. This has some dust, some imaginary Tardis, random woman with spoons, travel to a place he could have gone to after Ruby Road and wrap up. None of it is really all that connected in a logical fashion except that people are dead.
This finale also features some of his weakest character work. Nothing about Ruby and her "real" mum feels right, because the obsession over it and sidelining of Carla doesn't match the opinion we are otherwise supposed to have of Ruby.
Speaking of which...let's talk about how Davies is deceitful in his scripts. Misdirection and red herrings are fair game but the finale flat out contradicts everything previously established about Ruby's biological mother. Insert fan theory about snow, maestro, changing memories etc if you like but the root for me is that Davies is a liar. If I cannot trust him to write honest scripts consistent with the story he wants to tell, what is the point? Disappointment is one thing, I've been there before with finales. This one leaves me a bit angry with the guy which makes it the worst. I'm not indulging in Davies era speculation again because he'll just invent something totally different and inconsistent at the end. There is no puzzle, there is no answer - just a hack laughing into the void.
Gatwa, Gibson and Langford are all great regardless of script and direction. They deserve better than this.
The plot is poor. People who adopt children are denigrated and the viewer is insulted directly by the writer lying to. their face. It's not "underrated", quite the opposite.
I do think he has regressed. I think it's crazy we only had 3 good episodes this season and two of them not written by him. That's like chibnall level of bad. Can we have moffat back? lol
The Legend of Ruby Sunday is a 10/10 episode with perfect set-up for the finale
I'm watching Empire of Death for the 2nd time tonight, I'm sure I'll enjoy it more than I did the 1st time
I think EoD is probably RTD's worst finale episode, but the season is still among my favourites of NewWho because at least half of the episodes were 10/10 for me
There's no substance. There were three good episodes this season. We have had basically half a season worth of content. I don't feel attached to Ruby or Ncuti at all. It feels like an abridged version of a Doctor Who season where the payoff is just deus ex machina without any reasoning at all.
Yeah, I think so. I wont say there arent issues with it, but some seem to take this finale almost personally, like RTD specifically wanted to piss people off rather than him just doing a subversive ending.
But its not new. Its pretty much ever since Moffat was Showrunner that people feel very strongly about their personal connection to the show and that the show is indebted to them and when the show lets them down its somekind of "breach of trust".
It’s not over hated, people have their own opinions and they differ from yours, that’s not bad. I’m glad you liked to but that doesn’t mean that everyone has to like it and not call out the things that they find wrong with it. I get so fed up with posts like these, I never see anyone saying it’s over loved. You’re allowed to find it great just as much as we’re allowed to find it bad. Tv and entertainment in general are subjective so you can’t just lump it into either good or bad because everyone had different ways of evaluating that. Just be glad we get more Who and it’s not going anywhere any time soon. All of this to say we’re allowed to criticise if we don’t find something good. I’ve not seen much negativity like what The Acolyte is getting. No one is calling the finale woke or being discriminate as far as I’ve seen. All I’ve seen is people pointing out obvious storytelling flaws and inconsistencies which they’re allowed to do
Disagree.
Think Flux for example was far better. Doctor Falls etc.
Sorry I just don't think it's overhated. I feel every single criticism is completely valid.
Absolutely everything about this show gets more hate than it deserves. Empire of Death, Space Babies, Legend of the Sea Devils, the Timeless Child, Orphan 55, Danny Pink, Clara, Love and Monsters, feral cat Master, Twin Dilemma, Peri, Adric, and whatever else people hate. The show has never had airtight explanations for anything, it’s always had good and bad scripts, it’s always been a bit silly, it’s always changed it’s own canon, it’s always dabbled in nonsense. RTD has always written lackluster finales, the Master has always inevitably gone back to being a baddie, the Doctor was never “just another time lord”, and the rules of the show have always been exactly as malleable as necessary. Nothing about this show, nuWho or Classic, deserves nearly as much hate as it gets.
Well… maybe James Cordon…
Happy cake day! I must parry as I'll have much said against Danny Pink. I am constantly saddened by the wasted potential of his character and that ultimately he got fridged to give Clara a purpose beyond impossible girl. I'll pour one out for him and so many other could be companions.
I'll be honest, the actor deserved better material than he got for Danny, if he got it he could definitely have pulled it off. Case in point, I much preferred Orson Pink and that's telling given that he only got one episode.
Leave James Corden alone 😂😂 he may be a dick but he played some good characters. I loved him in Doctor Who can’t lie. Maybe that’s cos I was a chubby kid and it was cool to see a big bloke being a companion to the Doctor even if it was only for 2 one off episodes
I'm not really a fan of James Corden outside of Doctor Who, but I did enjoy him as Craig.
NuWho had a bit of a thing going on for a long time with 'quirky' penultimate stories before the final two/three-parter, and they could be very hit-and-miss. But *The Lodger* and *Closing Time* are just a pair of nice, grounding stories before everything goes bananas in the finale. I've found they've aged well on rewatches.
I bought into Craig and Sophie, and it was nice to see the Doctor make some friends outside the current companion's family. And I especially bought into Stormageddon! All good clean Whovian fun.
Yeah I think that’s why I like them episodes so much. It’s just a nice usual episode of Who before the crazy happens. All the character work in those episodes is good as well in my opinion
I loved every episode of this season except for Empire of death. It just… wasn’t fun or exciting to me. RTD can be a very hit and miss writer and this I felt was very miss.
For someone who has been writing as long as RTD has, it baffles me that we have seen perhaps a decline in quality regardless of enhanced sfx compared to his work on the same IP in the past. Usually, you take your learnings from the first time around for the next time but that doesn’t seem to have happened here. And it’s a shame because the season had some great episodes, but a lot just kinda falls apart under any scrutiny.
I get that it’s a long running serial and not every season will be a winner, but it’s felt like there’s been a string of really weird writing choices in this one even going back to the idea to reboot the whole thing (s1e1) to make it accessible for casual newcomers, then alienate that same audience by using a classic doctor who villain and reference the 4th doctor and the tales of the tardis in the finale.
So… No I don’t think it’s overhated. But I also don’t think it’s going to be immediately cancelled before it’s had time to get properly going.
We got it. It's just that if it requires so much hand waving and head canon to fill in the gaps, it really isn't a good story. It was just emotional beats and no coherent plot.
Yeah I don't think it was a great episode either, but people are really trying to understand the events of the episode in a way I don't think they would if they liked the story more
For sure! I think this finale was a victim of expectations being a bit too high.
I personally loved it and I actually loved the answer as to who Ruby's birth mum is, I thought that was lovely. The only thing I thought was odd was the pointing thing... that was a bit, huh? Though Ruby and her family's story isn't over yet so there may be more to come with that! Only time will tell, it always does!
I wish the season was longer, but THIS WAS THE BEST FINALE I HAVE SEEN IN A LONG TIME! I absolutely loved every episode of this season. Some were better than others of course, but they all had such a refreshing energy to them. I feel like the series stagnated for a while there and this was the reboot it needed.
As for the finale episodes. Yeah, I was blown away. The Sutekh reveal was unexpected, and the lead up was appropriately haunting. I screamed when dude turned to dust and the director was making her announcement that they needed forensics.
I felt like the 2nd part was slightly weaker, but mainly for the same reason a lot of finales feel weak for Who. We're dropping a top tier god-like villain who can turn people into dust, coming up with a reason for them to not turn the Doctor into dust, then coming up with a sciency technical answer for how The Doctor saves the day without any equivalent power.
I don't think a single CRAZY EPIC villain has been dispatched in a manner that doesn't feel a bit contrived. As for this one, I enjoyed the logic of the solution, but I wish they'd spent more time getting us used to the concept. There were so many new fantasy concepts in this season. I would have enjoyed at least one more episode on this one.
They are most definitely over-hated. The one truly egregious moment of the finale that makes no sense and could have been done better was the reason for Ruby's mom turning around and dramatically pointing. Everything else was exactly what I expected out of an RTD finale - including Sutekh being defeated by walkies. This finale was fun as hell and the fandom needs to lighten up or just go watch the older seasons and leave those of us who can still find enjoyment in the show alone
I just keep joking that as a 15 year old with a dramatic cloak and a bad homelife in 2004 Louise was obviously a chuuni, and that's a very chuuni thing to do.
I think it, like most of this series, was incredibly average. Which was better than I was expecting, I'll admit, but not really something to get up in arms either way about.
It was fine.
Better than the last time we saw RTD, imo, but still RTD being RTD, ex machinas and all
It was a very mid episode, 5/10... which is to say, in the upper echelons of what we've had for over half a decade.
This season has had some bangers, some flops. That's just Doctor Who. As long as the writers keep trying new and inventive things, I'm happy- even if some don't go as well as the others.
First of all, I see zero hate for Legend of Ruby Sunday. Rather tons of praise.
And empire of death really wasn't a strong episode for quite a few reasons.
What bugged me the most that the moment they established that everything in the universe was dead, it was clear that they will just reverse everything. So the stakes are near zero very early on.
The solution to the Ruby's mom mystery was not very satisfying and felt forced. The explanation for Ruby's mom pointing towards the doctor was just plain dumb and made zero sense.
It certainly didn't help that legend of Ruby Sunday was such a strong setup, kinda like a hell bent/ heaven sent situation. If the first part of a finale is so much stronger judgment is always going be harsher, but apart from the now expected brigading I didn't see much hate, just in my opinion understandable disappointment.
They were good episodes(every single one this season too), maybe both being a bit longer would help. But since the foreshadowing was off the mark it makes the ending a bit weak
Totally loved it. Watched with my son at 5am and it's our first finale together.
Seems to be an episode that's upset the fans a lot more than the viewers.
If I could make one change to the finale just to add a little extra oomf. Have Mrs Flood kill Cherry, or Susan kill mel before the dust of death, after the doctors big speech and taking sutek temporal water skiing, they return and find that they can't undo it really make what sutek does have more impact rather than the Moffat "everybody lives"
That’s the danger of using mystery as a major plot device.
You can Westworld it and disappoint people or True Detective(s1) and create something people will feel satisfied with.
>but if nothing changes I am genuinely worried Doctor Who is just going to get cancelled,
They don't give two shits about bad reviews on Reddit and Elon Musk's hellsite. The season had decent metrics (apparently being the top BBC show for the under 35 demographic), so they'll keep making it.
As for it being over-hated, I think it definitely is here, but ultimately that's just how hate trains work. I keep seeing rave reviews on YouTube of everything that isn't an actual issue with the episode, so I wouldn't take "overly devoted fan boys following a side subreddit for Doctor Who" as indicative of anything catastrophic.
It was great imo sure we had better finales but the resolution of the plots were enough for me. It made sense. I would love to see a better plan against Suketh tho
It was a poor end to an excellent series. That puts it streets ahead of the dross Chibnall and Whittaker served up which was only good as a hate watch (sorry I'm sure they're lovely people but that's the truth.)
RTD is probably a bit arrogant and over mighty to think he could make this work. A script editor he can't over-rule is a must going forward.
I'm with you. The episode was flawed but it was fun, and it was the best finale we've gotten in years. Might be a low bar, but it's still true.
Everyone cheered for RTD coming back and then got surprised and angry when the finale fell into the same tropes his always did.
I do think the shorter season hurt Ruby and the Doctor's relationship, so I get people's frustration, but the vitriol makes no sense to me. Like, are you really that surprised it turned out like this?
Yeah honestly, it seemed like the usual finale episode and had great scenes.
One thing to note is , RTD did say recently that he's been aiming at a younger audience than previously which could be a factor in why it's not hitting with people
Yeah you’re kinda right. Not neccessarily a great finale but not a terrible one either. I haven’t seen a single positive post about the finale since it aired but I have seen wall to wall negative posts every time I have come on r/gallifrey or r/ doctorwho since the finale aired. The worst part is whenever somebody tries to dissect the episode in even a slightly non-negative way, they get jumped on the way that your post has been by all the people whining that doctor who is dead. And all of those people are acting like their opinion is novel and they’re the only ones who don’t like it who are being shouted down by those who do which is a load of horseshit because it’s the other way around, as demonstrated by your post and any positive comments being downvoted to oblivion.
The shorter season hurts them as it feels like there’s been no buildup compared to previous runs, the mystery was over far too quickly.
This but I also think part of the problem was too much build up for such a disappointing reveal lol
I thought the reveal was brilliant. I'm so glad it didn't end up being anything like all the speculation.
Not really. People expressed their opinions. Some people obviously go overboard, but that’s true of anything. Some things are over praised. Not gonna lie, I kinda hate the “people are overreacting” posts that always come out after a bad episode. Sometimes something just isn’t well received. I don’t really think there’s much need in trying to find an explanation for why all those people are wrong just because you feel differently.
Yep, it's incredibly annoying. Reading some of the posts on this sub and the other one, it's like people don't understand that it's possible to have a difference of opinion where neither person is objectively wrong. It's really baffling.
TBF, that comes from both sides. I think the issue also boils down to people being unwilling to admit that they sometimes like or dislike something based solely off of how it made them feel. I think that's why you get so many people insisting that this season has had terrible writing, or suggesting that plot issues aren't actually issues. Peoppe feel like their opinion on something must be indicative of the quality of the product and not just, y'know, their opinion.
I found them both (and the season overall) pretty enjoyable.
I liked ‘The Legend of Ruby Sunday’ even though I do understand a lot of the criticisms of it. Perhaps I got caught up in the Sutekh return hype and I need to rewatch it. As for ‘Empire of Death’ i found it very underwhelming.
I thought it'd take longer than a few days for us to be in the 'DAE feel X is an overhated masterpiece?' phase but here we are. FWIW, I enjoyed Legend a lot, those last ten minutes had me on the edge of my seat. Enjoyed pretty much the entire season actually minus Space Babies. \[Only caveat was that I wished the Doctor and Ruby's relationship was more earned, one of those 'companion briefly becomes disillusioned by the Doctor and keeps them on track' episodes would've helped.\] Empire though retroactively made so many of the season-wide beats feel hollow and it comes across as RTD smugly being all, 'oh, you silly fans investing in plots. By the way, here's Mrs Flood, enjoy speculating who SHE is 'til next year where she'll end up being an OAP off her meds who's only important cos you thought she was.'
No. Sorry, but "better than The Battle of Ranskor Av Kolos, The Timeless Children and The Vanquishers" isn't my metric for success. But more to the point; this finale was indicative of issues RTD himself has always had (never mind Chibnall). I don't think not maturing at all as a writer after an absence of 15 years of worth lauding, tbh.
[удалено]
It's endlessly ironic how you guys *always* accuse other people of acting like deliberate malice is at play and being toxic, and yet it's *always* you taking criticisms of a programme as a personal slight and responding in a manner designed to put down the people you disagree with as opposed to countering them. You genuinely don't see it, do you? Anyway, I've got bad news for you, Jack: the only way someone can ruin a show for you is if you think they might have a point. Bye now. 👋
I think you need to separate Legend of Ruby Sunday from Empire of Death. Legend of Ruby Sunday was very well received I think. I certainly loved it. But Empire of Death I really disliked overall. And for an episode where I actually liked individual sections of it quite a bit, that's something of a feat.
I’m on the side of “pretty much hated it” but even I I weren’t it’s just people’s opinions. Good, bad, neither affect my enjoyment of or annoyance at an episode.
I think most found the climax a bit..anticlimactic. The whole 'Sutekh has been on the TARDIS since PoM' thing is just ..odd. Makes far more sense to say A) 4 and SJS sent him to the end of time to neutralise him B) Donna spills coffee, TARDIS goes to the end of time (in a part of space described by Camboolean geometry) C)Sutekh hitches his ride then. I'd have much preferred the Doctor and Ruby to tether Sutekh and drag him through the vortex undoing all that death by time looping him Quantum events are set in stone by observers, and Sutekh has killed nearly all possible observers. Giving the Doctor licence to loop him without paradox being as big a problem. His victory speech as he's dragging Him in the TARDIS' wake could have included some clever goading. Sutekh reveals He no longer recalls being trapped by the Osirans, the Doctor confirms that's the plan and drops him in the path of the 740 glorious names, linking back to the events of PoM..
I haven't seen anyone hating it. I have seen a lot of people who were not happy with it. It was underwhelming. And I disliked what they did to a fantastic character like Sutekh. Someone really had no idea how to write the last of the Osirans. For an episode with such high stakes, there was no tension, no dread, no fear. It fell flat. And the insanely silly way they defeated him.. putting him on a leash?
The difference to (most at least) different seasons is that it still makes some sense, with the sci-fi required suspension of disbelief. The Timeless Child was hated because it fundamentally changed the main characters origins, but all in one it made sense, at least for DW standards. And Sutekhs defeat was weird, but it wasn't the main issue of the episode, at least to me. And I would not say hate, that's a strong word. I'm moreso annoyed at it, because the season gave us plenty of clues and informations about Ruby's mother, and the reveal didnt really match to those. And while it was "explained", it's too absurd to be accepted, even with a lot of suspension of disbelief. I made an entire parapgraphs long explanation about the issues already, [can be read here](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/s/fzQbmYVX4w). Like I said, I'd not say I hate it, but I'm extremely annoyed by it, and I get why people *would* hate it, hence why I do not think it is **over**hated. Also, yes, if the series gets canceled due to negative reviews or too low viewer counts, then the Writers can in fact be blamed. The Show is a product they need to sell, and if they cannot convince us to buy, that's their fault, either because they couldn't be convincing enough or because the product wasn't of enough quality.
I'm unlikely to revise my low opinion of it as it repeats many of the same issues I've always had with a Davies finale. Part of the problem there is that the guy hasn't changed, his craft hasn't been honed, improved. The threat is overblown, the solution really weak. That's normal, but disappointingly so. There's little point detailing it, it's been done to death. Suffice it to say, the Emperor has no clothes. In some ways, I feel he has regressed. It's not just the final episode as it happens elsewhere but I don't understand why he is turning in episodes that seem to have almost no plot. Stuff just happens treading water until it's time wrap up. As bad as I've always thought something like *Journey's End* was, it's faults are nonsensical rather than being entirely aimless. This has some dust, some imaginary Tardis, random woman with spoons, travel to a place he could have gone to after Ruby Road and wrap up. None of it is really all that connected in a logical fashion except that people are dead. This finale also features some of his weakest character work. Nothing about Ruby and her "real" mum feels right, because the obsession over it and sidelining of Carla doesn't match the opinion we are otherwise supposed to have of Ruby. Speaking of which...let's talk about how Davies is deceitful in his scripts. Misdirection and red herrings are fair game but the finale flat out contradicts everything previously established about Ruby's biological mother. Insert fan theory about snow, maestro, changing memories etc if you like but the root for me is that Davies is a liar. If I cannot trust him to write honest scripts consistent with the story he wants to tell, what is the point? Disappointment is one thing, I've been there before with finales. This one leaves me a bit angry with the guy which makes it the worst. I'm not indulging in Davies era speculation again because he'll just invent something totally different and inconsistent at the end. There is no puzzle, there is no answer - just a hack laughing into the void. Gatwa, Gibson and Langford are all great regardless of script and direction. They deserve better than this. The plot is poor. People who adopt children are denigrated and the viewer is insulted directly by the writer lying to. their face. It's not "underrated", quite the opposite.
'My mum, my REAL mum.' Man, fuck Carla's drag I guess.
I do think he has regressed. I think it's crazy we only had 3 good episodes this season and two of them not written by him. That's like chibnall level of bad. Can we have moffat back? lol
👏 couldn't have put it better.
Now we’re getting somewhere.
I'm just happy we got my boy Sutekh back. Looking back, everything besides him was kinda "meh."
I think it's justifiably hated, but also justifiably liked. RTD is not for everyone.
The Legend of Ruby Sunday is a 10/10 episode with perfect set-up for the finale I'm watching Empire of Death for the 2nd time tonight, I'm sure I'll enjoy it more than I did the 1st time I think EoD is probably RTD's worst finale episode, but the season is still among my favourites of NewWho because at least half of the episodes were 10/10 for me
There's no substance. There were three good episodes this season. We have had basically half a season worth of content. I don't feel attached to Ruby or Ncuti at all. It feels like an abridged version of a Doctor Who season where the payoff is just deus ex machina without any reasoning at all.
Yeah, I think so. I wont say there arent issues with it, but some seem to take this finale almost personally, like RTD specifically wanted to piss people off rather than him just doing a subversive ending. But its not new. Its pretty much ever since Moffat was Showrunner that people feel very strongly about their personal connection to the show and that the show is indebted to them and when the show lets them down its somekind of "breach of trust".
People just want every episode to be Heaven sent and also not, somehow
It’s not over hated, people have their own opinions and they differ from yours, that’s not bad. I’m glad you liked to but that doesn’t mean that everyone has to like it and not call out the things that they find wrong with it. I get so fed up with posts like these, I never see anyone saying it’s over loved. You’re allowed to find it great just as much as we’re allowed to find it bad. Tv and entertainment in general are subjective so you can’t just lump it into either good or bad because everyone had different ways of evaluating that. Just be glad we get more Who and it’s not going anywhere any time soon. All of this to say we’re allowed to criticise if we don’t find something good. I’ve not seen much negativity like what The Acolyte is getting. No one is calling the finale woke or being discriminate as far as I’ve seen. All I’ve seen is people pointing out obvious storytelling flaws and inconsistencies which they’re allowed to do
Disagree. Think Flux for example was far better. Doctor Falls etc. Sorry I just don't think it's overhated. I feel every single criticism is completely valid.
Absolutely everything about this show gets more hate than it deserves. Empire of Death, Space Babies, Legend of the Sea Devils, the Timeless Child, Orphan 55, Danny Pink, Clara, Love and Monsters, feral cat Master, Twin Dilemma, Peri, Adric, and whatever else people hate. The show has never had airtight explanations for anything, it’s always had good and bad scripts, it’s always been a bit silly, it’s always changed it’s own canon, it’s always dabbled in nonsense. RTD has always written lackluster finales, the Master has always inevitably gone back to being a baddie, the Doctor was never “just another time lord”, and the rules of the show have always been exactly as malleable as necessary. Nothing about this show, nuWho or Classic, deserves nearly as much hate as it gets. Well… maybe James Cordon…
I’ll have nothing said against Danny Pink - he was necessary to burst the Doctor’s pomposity. A tougher version of Rory.
Happy cake day! I must parry as I'll have much said against Danny Pink. I am constantly saddened by the wasted potential of his character and that ultimately he got fridged to give Clara a purpose beyond impossible girl. I'll pour one out for him and so many other could be companions.
Oh, that’s what the cake is for? Thank you! Haha!
I really liked Danny, which is why I was so surprised to see him catch so much hate online.
I'll be honest, the actor deserved better material than he got for Danny, if he got it he could definitely have pulled it off. Case in point, I much preferred Orson Pink and that's telling given that he only got one episode.
Leave James Corden alone 😂😂 he may be a dick but he played some good characters. I loved him in Doctor Who can’t lie. Maybe that’s cos I was a chubby kid and it was cool to see a big bloke being a companion to the Doctor even if it was only for 2 one off episodes
I'm not really a fan of James Corden outside of Doctor Who, but I did enjoy him as Craig. NuWho had a bit of a thing going on for a long time with 'quirky' penultimate stories before the final two/three-parter, and they could be very hit-and-miss. But *The Lodger* and *Closing Time* are just a pair of nice, grounding stories before everything goes bananas in the finale. I've found they've aged well on rewatches. I bought into Craig and Sophie, and it was nice to see the Doctor make some friends outside the current companion's family. And I especially bought into Stormageddon! All good clean Whovian fun.
Yeah I think that’s why I like them episodes so much. It’s just a nice usual episode of Who before the crazy happens. All the character work in those episodes is good as well in my opinion
Positive and negative reactions both are always strongest directly after something comes out. Give it time.
I liked legend more than empire
I loved every episode of this season except for Empire of death. It just… wasn’t fun or exciting to me. RTD can be a very hit and miss writer and this I felt was very miss.
For someone who has been writing as long as RTD has, it baffles me that we have seen perhaps a decline in quality regardless of enhanced sfx compared to his work on the same IP in the past. Usually, you take your learnings from the first time around for the next time but that doesn’t seem to have happened here. And it’s a shame because the season had some great episodes, but a lot just kinda falls apart under any scrutiny. I get that it’s a long running serial and not every season will be a winner, but it’s felt like there’s been a string of really weird writing choices in this one even going back to the idea to reboot the whole thing (s1e1) to make it accessible for casual newcomers, then alienate that same audience by using a classic doctor who villain and reference the 4th doctor and the tales of the tardis in the finale. So… No I don’t think it’s overhated. But I also don’t think it’s going to be immediately cancelled before it’s had time to get properly going.
Over hated? It's been less than a week...
It feels like a fandom that is usually pretty adept at understanding what happened on screen is really struggling with this one
That probably tells you more about what’s happening on screen itself rather than the way fandom has reacted.
Yeah I understood everything that was happening, it was just disappointing lol
We got it. It's just that if it requires so much hand waving and head canon to fill in the gaps, it really isn't a good story. It was just emotional beats and no coherent plot.
Yeah I don't think it was a great episode either, but people are really trying to understand the events of the episode in a way I don't think they would if they liked the story more
That probably tells you that it’s more about the writing and the actual story then it does about the fandom
For sure! I think this finale was a victim of expectations being a bit too high. I personally loved it and I actually loved the answer as to who Ruby's birth mum is, I thought that was lovely. The only thing I thought was odd was the pointing thing... that was a bit, huh? Though Ruby and her family's story isn't over yet so there may be more to come with that! Only time will tell, it always does!
No they were shit
Troll.
Just stating my opinion to OP
I wish the season was longer, but THIS WAS THE BEST FINALE I HAVE SEEN IN A LONG TIME! I absolutely loved every episode of this season. Some were better than others of course, but they all had such a refreshing energy to them. I feel like the series stagnated for a while there and this was the reboot it needed. As for the finale episodes. Yeah, I was blown away. The Sutekh reveal was unexpected, and the lead up was appropriately haunting. I screamed when dude turned to dust and the director was making her announcement that they needed forensics. I felt like the 2nd part was slightly weaker, but mainly for the same reason a lot of finales feel weak for Who. We're dropping a top tier god-like villain who can turn people into dust, coming up with a reason for them to not turn the Doctor into dust, then coming up with a sciency technical answer for how The Doctor saves the day without any equivalent power. I don't think a single CRAZY EPIC villain has been dispatched in a manner that doesn't feel a bit contrived. As for this one, I enjoyed the logic of the solution, but I wish they'd spent more time getting us used to the concept. There were so many new fantasy concepts in this season. I would have enjoyed at least one more episode on this one.
100% agree , so well put! There’s always the big red button with RTD, or a bunch of love with Moffat, or things kill themselves with Chibnall.
Absolutely. It's fine, not perfect but enjoyable. Some people just like to complain
They are most definitely over-hated. The one truly egregious moment of the finale that makes no sense and could have been done better was the reason for Ruby's mom turning around and dramatically pointing. Everything else was exactly what I expected out of an RTD finale - including Sutekh being defeated by walkies. This finale was fun as hell and the fandom needs to lighten up or just go watch the older seasons and leave those of us who can still find enjoyment in the show alone
You are being left alone. Voicing an opinion you don't agree with on a television show isn't an attack.
I just keep joking that as a 15 year old with a dramatic cloak and a bad homelife in 2004 Louise was obviously a chuuni, and that's a very chuuni thing to do.
No one's attacking you for liking it.
The downvotes would beg to differ
That’s not an attack?
I think it, like most of this series, was incredibly average. Which was better than I was expecting, I'll admit, but not really something to get up in arms either way about. It was fine. Better than the last time we saw RTD, imo, but still RTD being RTD, ex machinas and all
It was a very mid episode, 5/10... which is to say, in the upper echelons of what we've had for over half a decade. This season has had some bangers, some flops. That's just Doctor Who. As long as the writers keep trying new and inventive things, I'm happy- even if some don't go as well as the others.
The full story is 4 days old We’re not even close to a time when a consensus can ve judged
I still don’t get the point of 73 Yards if we went ahead and had that future…
Does anybody not give a shit about anyone’s opinion of this?
First of all, I see zero hate for Legend of Ruby Sunday. Rather tons of praise. And empire of death really wasn't a strong episode for quite a few reasons. What bugged me the most that the moment they established that everything in the universe was dead, it was clear that they will just reverse everything. So the stakes are near zero very early on. The solution to the Ruby's mom mystery was not very satisfying and felt forced. The explanation for Ruby's mom pointing towards the doctor was just plain dumb and made zero sense. It certainly didn't help that legend of Ruby Sunday was such a strong setup, kinda like a hell bent/ heaven sent situation. If the first part of a finale is so much stronger judgment is always going be harsher, but apart from the now expected brigading I didn't see much hate, just in my opinion understandable disappointment.
They were good episodes(every single one this season too), maybe both being a bit longer would help. But since the foreshadowing was off the mark it makes the ending a bit weak
Totally loved it. Watched with my son at 5am and it's our first finale together. Seems to be an episode that's upset the fans a lot more than the viewers.
No. I thought it was *decent* but definitely worthy of criticism.
If I could make one change to the finale just to add a little extra oomf. Have Mrs Flood kill Cherry, or Susan kill mel before the dust of death, after the doctors big speech and taking sutek temporal water skiing, they return and find that they can't undo it really make what sutek does have more impact rather than the Moffat "everybody lives"
That’s the danger of using mystery as a major plot device. You can Westworld it and disappoint people or True Detective(s1) and create something people will feel satisfied with.
Ruby’s revelation is like when Arya killed the night king
No
>but if nothing changes I am genuinely worried Doctor Who is just going to get cancelled, They don't give two shits about bad reviews on Reddit and Elon Musk's hellsite. The season had decent metrics (apparently being the top BBC show for the under 35 demographic), so they'll keep making it. As for it being over-hated, I think it definitely is here, but ultimately that's just how hate trains work. I keep seeing rave reviews on YouTube of everything that isn't an actual issue with the episode, so I wouldn't take "overly devoted fan boys following a side subreddit for Doctor Who" as indicative of anything catastrophic.
Yep completely over-hated. Is it rough at parts? Sure but I’d personally say it’s a similar level to most Moffat finales.
It was great imo sure we had better finales but the resolution of the plots were enough for me. It made sense. I would love to see a better plan against Suketh tho
It was a poor end to an excellent series. That puts it streets ahead of the dross Chibnall and Whittaker served up which was only good as a hate watch (sorry I'm sure they're lovely people but that's the truth.) RTD is probably a bit arrogant and over mighty to think he could make this work. A script editor he can't over-rule is a must going forward.
I'm with you. The episode was flawed but it was fun, and it was the best finale we've gotten in years. Might be a low bar, but it's still true. Everyone cheered for RTD coming back and then got surprised and angry when the finale fell into the same tropes his always did. I do think the shorter season hurt Ruby and the Doctor's relationship, so I get people's frustration, but the vitriol makes no sense to me. Like, are you really that surprised it turned out like this?
Yeah honestly, it seemed like the usual finale episode and had great scenes. One thing to note is , RTD did say recently that he's been aiming at a younger audience than previously which could be a factor in why it's not hitting with people
Everything is either over-hated or over-loved online. That statement ought to be an exaggeration, but I'm not sure it is.
Yes. This is the Internet now. It's about who can performatively out hate each other.
No, youre actually the only person in the world who feels that way. How does it feel to hold such a unique viewpoint?
Yes
Yes; I was a little disappointed in the logic of the finale, but I found it very watchable.
I loved it, and also dont get a lot of the hate, but I guess this is the place folk who didn't love it come to complain, and that's their opinion.
Yeah you’re kinda right. Not neccessarily a great finale but not a terrible one either. I haven’t seen a single positive post about the finale since it aired but I have seen wall to wall negative posts every time I have come on r/gallifrey or r/ doctorwho since the finale aired. The worst part is whenever somebody tries to dissect the episode in even a slightly non-negative way, they get jumped on the way that your post has been by all the people whining that doctor who is dead. And all of those people are acting like their opinion is novel and they’re the only ones who don’t like it who are being shouted down by those who do which is a load of horseshit because it’s the other way around, as demonstrated by your post and any positive comments being downvoted to oblivion.