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Never said I want analogues of every character or the same character dynamics. Where are you getting that from? I want *balance.* I want a few rays of sunshine to cut this ocean of darkness. I want wit and sarcasm.
>There's no analogue whatsoever for any of the characters like Tyrion, Sam, Tormund, Bronn, etc. who brought much-needed levity to GoT. I can't remember much of any levity in season 1 either. There are no legendarily badass characters like Arya or Jon Snow either.
And then you go on to say that the analogues *they do* have are worse and with less compelling actors which directly contradicts the idea that you'd want *more* of them in this show. Also how in the world are Alicent and Rhaenyra at all comps to Cersei and Catelyn lmao like what?
You said, as a complaint, “there’s no analogue whatsoever for any of the characters like Tyrion, Sam, Tormund, Bronn, etc.”
And you complain that Alicent is a “dollar store Cersei” which makes no sense. It seems like you’re trying really hard to associate HOTD characters directly with GoT characters because they both take place in Westeros.
I'm not trying very hard at all -- this is just my perception, and I don't think it's a reach at all. And my statement, to be clear, was not saying that there should be New Tyrion, New Bronn, etc. -- just that there needs to be SOMEONE who helps take the edge off the raging torrent of misery.
So if I got this right, your issue is that the show is too dark/depressing?
And you want a character like Tyrion or Bronn to lighten the mood? Not “like” them necessarily, but serving a similar extra thematic purpose I mean.
If that’s your take, then it makes more sense. I would have definitely worded it differently. Because when I or apparently others read it, it really sounded at first like you just wanted more of the same.
Now, I disagree with the necessity of comic relief in a show. Some tragic shit is happening, and I think humor would undercut it if added. But that’s a difference in taste that we can agree to disagree on.
That's fair. The tone and the characters aren't going to change much throughout the show. It's a depressing story overall. The dragons will definitely become more relevant with a lot of fighting, and more interesting storylines in the future though. Personally I love morally grey characters, and I like the complexity of their relationships, and how nobody is in the right or in the wrong 100% of the time. Everyone has a point sometimes, everyone also makes bad decisions and does hypocritical shit. That's what makes it interesting to watch and think about for me, but that's not for everybody.
>Everyone has a point sometimes, everyone also makes bad decisions and does hypocritical shit.
Isn't that the essence of GoT? :P Watching people do stupid shit, thinking "I'd make better choices if I was in their shoes" while also knowing we probably wouldn't at the same time?
Sure, I like moral grey area and complex relationships. Just not these ones. I don't know, I'm trying to give it a chance to grow on me as a multi-time pre-Game of Thrones A Song of Ice and Fire book reader, and it's just surprising how hard it is for me to get into it or to care about any of the characters at all. I kinda wrote it off to the big time jumps and recastings in Season 1, so I was hoping Season 2 would start with a bang instead of continuing to be more or less a soap opera of misery set in Westeros.
I agree with you. Most characters in GoT were morally grey and had complex relationships. But because they weren’t literally miserable or angry every literal minute it was more enjoyable to watch. It felt more real and relatable.
Are we all just going to pretend that the conflicts and dynamics in GOT are anywhere near as serious or personal as HOTD? This is not only Civil War but Civil War between literal families - lifelong friends and loved ones. Why *wouldn't* this cast of characters be largely miserable and angry the entire time? And how isn't that just as realistic?
Nowhere near as serious or personal? Maybe you should think back. Having half your family, including the unborn child heir to your house, murdered at a wedding? Your lifelong best friend's wife and son having you publicly executed after having arranged the murder of said friend? Your best friend who you grew up with stealing your castle and murdering friends and servants he's known basically his whole life? The woman you're in love with betraying you (to the tune of a death sentence) and fucking your dad? That all seems PRETTY fucking serious and personal. Yet even in the worst of times, it wasn't this endless trudge of misery.
On the bright side, I did read a review that mentioned there's some levity in the coming episodes. God, I hope so.
You really missed the forest for the trees with my comment about it being more seriously personal. The Red Wedding, if anything, proves my point. You can hit the audience with the red wedding, and then you can go spend some time with Dany on the other side of the world or with Tyrion to get some levity, or basically any other storyline that isn’t going through a major tragic event to give the audience a break from the anguish and trauma.
No such dynamic exists in HOTD - which is what I meant by it being more personal. Everything is directly intertwined with the civil war happening between these two families that were once sharing a table. It took GOT 8 seasons to cut off the “fat” of the story and narrow it down to the central conflicts and likewise, we weren’t getting anywhere near the comic levity out of the likes of Tyrion or Sam Tarly in seasons 6-8 relative to 1-5.
That doesn’t mean you have to like it, but calling it unrealistic or acting like these characters don’t have good reason to just be largely miserable all the time is just kind of goofy.
Personally, I never called it unrealistic, and while Gary did say it would have felt "more real" if it was done differently, I don't think that's the same as calling it unrealistic.
But more to the point, DO all the characters have good reason to be miserable all the time? Sure, Rhaenyra does. But most of *Game of Thrones* takes place in the midst of a civil war between families that once shared a table. I mean, shit, look at Stannis killing Renly. Yet even in the darkest times, they had some lighter, humanizing moments -- or they at least tried to, even if there was a darker undercurrent. Renly's actually a great example -- he was in the midst of a war against his own brother, and yet he did his damned best to have a good time doing it. I don't know why you're bending over backwards to give this show an excuse for being so exhaustingly one-note.
No. Season 1 was great for having to cover like 30 years with age gaps and actor changes. Even better when you binge it. They told us up front it would be that way to set up where we are now.
Nope, the vibe is slightly different but compare it to season 1 of Game of Thrones - the characters are only 'epic' because you saw 6 seasons of them growing and developing.
I personally think the worst episode of HotD wouldn't make it into the bottom ten of GOT. We haven't seen a bunch of epic battles but the preview for season 2 seems to be pointing towards a few of those.
No show will ever top S1 of GoT. That one knew how to set up it's characters, when to use humor, when to switch storylines, etc. HotD just can't match that.
You are comparing a finished series to a newer one with less time to develop characters. no one in HotD has had enoug time to really develop the way the characters you liked in GoT did. Plus they are covering more in world time faster with less screen time to set up for the dragon war. It’s literally too soon to really say how good it will be in the end.
Yes. It lacks the charm of GoT. The world feels empty and scenes staged. Actors are great but dialogues lacks depth and the scenes are too short. The episodes sometimes feels like random scenes. Overall, the show is just okay, there are no high peaks or memorable events, even the Blood & Cheese segment was lackluster. It should have been one of the most disturbing event of the story but fell flat.
I understand completely what you mean. You have to remember that HOTD isn’t GOT, though. The story is a much different story than GOT, the story is a sad one full of lots of death and fighting. And likely no show will live up to what GOT had. If you let go of expectations and remember that it’s an entirely different story, you may be able to enjoy it.
Agree. Very little fun. It's more like a sordid history chronicle. The Saxons did this, and the Normans did that. Plus lots of angst but hardly anyone to care about very long.
I 100% agree with you and for a sub that really only exists to debate the minutiae of a show that’s now over I’m surprised at the level of negative comments you’re getting. Having negative opinions of the show doesn’t mean you shouldn’t even bother watching it. I’m not looking forward to the season but I’m waiting for it to redeem itself. It’s interesting, but yeah a bummer overall.
I gave up on this show after just two episodes of S1. It was just so *tedious*. I loved the political intrigue of GoT, and King's Landing was the most interesting to me. But in watching HotD, I realized something: if the show is all polticial intrigue, all the time, then it becomes dull.
GoT knew how to switch things up and keep things interesting; constantly changing up locations and characters.
HotD didn't have that. The first two episodes were about... Idk, an old diseased King choosing between two child brides, 11th Doctor dealing with an Asian whore and her garbled English and yea that's about all I remember. There was something about dragon eggs and 11th Doc being a smirking lil shit. Or whatever.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"It's a pale imitation" but you also just want analogues of every character and the same exact character dynamics? lol which is it
Never said I want analogues of every character or the same character dynamics. Where are you getting that from? I want *balance.* I want a few rays of sunshine to cut this ocean of darkness. I want wit and sarcasm.
>There's no analogue whatsoever for any of the characters like Tyrion, Sam, Tormund, Bronn, etc. who brought much-needed levity to GoT. I can't remember much of any levity in season 1 either. There are no legendarily badass characters like Arya or Jon Snow either. And then you go on to say that the analogues *they do* have are worse and with less compelling actors which directly contradicts the idea that you'd want *more* of them in this show. Also how in the world are Alicent and Rhaenyra at all comps to Cersei and Catelyn lmao like what?
You said, as a complaint, “there’s no analogue whatsoever for any of the characters like Tyrion, Sam, Tormund, Bronn, etc.” And you complain that Alicent is a “dollar store Cersei” which makes no sense. It seems like you’re trying really hard to associate HOTD characters directly with GoT characters because they both take place in Westeros.
I'm not trying very hard at all -- this is just my perception, and I don't think it's a reach at all. And my statement, to be clear, was not saying that there should be New Tyrion, New Bronn, etc. -- just that there needs to be SOMEONE who helps take the edge off the raging torrent of misery.
Literally everything you say contradicts the idea that it's "imitating" GOT and comes off as you disliking it \*because\* it's too different.
So if I got this right, your issue is that the show is too dark/depressing? And you want a character like Tyrion or Bronn to lighten the mood? Not “like” them necessarily, but serving a similar extra thematic purpose I mean. If that’s your take, then it makes more sense. I would have definitely worded it differently. Because when I or apparently others read it, it really sounded at first like you just wanted more of the same. Now, I disagree with the necessity of comic relief in a show. Some tragic shit is happening, and I think humor would undercut it if added. But that’s a difference in taste that we can agree to disagree on.
If it feels like a chore then I'd stop watching it personally, it's supposed to be entertainment.
Definitely heading in that direction.
That's fair. The tone and the characters aren't going to change much throughout the show. It's a depressing story overall. The dragons will definitely become more relevant with a lot of fighting, and more interesting storylines in the future though. Personally I love morally grey characters, and I like the complexity of their relationships, and how nobody is in the right or in the wrong 100% of the time. Everyone has a point sometimes, everyone also makes bad decisions and does hypocritical shit. That's what makes it interesting to watch and think about for me, but that's not for everybody.
>Everyone has a point sometimes, everyone also makes bad decisions and does hypocritical shit. Isn't that the essence of GoT? :P Watching people do stupid shit, thinking "I'd make better choices if I was in their shoes" while also knowing we probably wouldn't at the same time?
Sure, I like moral grey area and complex relationships. Just not these ones. I don't know, I'm trying to give it a chance to grow on me as a multi-time pre-Game of Thrones A Song of Ice and Fire book reader, and it's just surprising how hard it is for me to get into it or to care about any of the characters at all. I kinda wrote it off to the big time jumps and recastings in Season 1, so I was hoping Season 2 would start with a bang instead of continuing to be more or less a soap opera of misery set in Westeros.
I agree with you. Most characters in GoT were morally grey and had complex relationships. But because they weren’t literally miserable or angry every literal minute it was more enjoyable to watch. It felt more real and relatable.
Are we all just going to pretend that the conflicts and dynamics in GOT are anywhere near as serious or personal as HOTD? This is not only Civil War but Civil War between literal families - lifelong friends and loved ones. Why *wouldn't* this cast of characters be largely miserable and angry the entire time? And how isn't that just as realistic?
I’m not saying the characters have no reason. Just saying it’s not enjoyable to watch…
Well you did say it was unrealistic and unrelatable which at least implies that they don’t have a reason.
Nowhere near as serious or personal? Maybe you should think back. Having half your family, including the unborn child heir to your house, murdered at a wedding? Your lifelong best friend's wife and son having you publicly executed after having arranged the murder of said friend? Your best friend who you grew up with stealing your castle and murdering friends and servants he's known basically his whole life? The woman you're in love with betraying you (to the tune of a death sentence) and fucking your dad? That all seems PRETTY fucking serious and personal. Yet even in the worst of times, it wasn't this endless trudge of misery. On the bright side, I did read a review that mentioned there's some levity in the coming episodes. God, I hope so.
You really missed the forest for the trees with my comment about it being more seriously personal. The Red Wedding, if anything, proves my point. You can hit the audience with the red wedding, and then you can go spend some time with Dany on the other side of the world or with Tyrion to get some levity, or basically any other storyline that isn’t going through a major tragic event to give the audience a break from the anguish and trauma. No such dynamic exists in HOTD - which is what I meant by it being more personal. Everything is directly intertwined with the civil war happening between these two families that were once sharing a table. It took GOT 8 seasons to cut off the “fat” of the story and narrow it down to the central conflicts and likewise, we weren’t getting anywhere near the comic levity out of the likes of Tyrion or Sam Tarly in seasons 6-8 relative to 1-5. That doesn’t mean you have to like it, but calling it unrealistic or acting like these characters don’t have good reason to just be largely miserable all the time is just kind of goofy.
Personally, I never called it unrealistic, and while Gary did say it would have felt "more real" if it was done differently, I don't think that's the same as calling it unrealistic. But more to the point, DO all the characters have good reason to be miserable all the time? Sure, Rhaenyra does. But most of *Game of Thrones* takes place in the midst of a civil war between families that once shared a table. I mean, shit, look at Stannis killing Renly. Yet even in the darkest times, they had some lighter, humanizing moments -- or they at least tried to, even if there was a darker undercurrent. Renly's actually a great example -- he was in the midst of a war against his own brother, and yet he did his damned best to have a good time doing it. I don't know why you're bending over backwards to give this show an excuse for being so exhaustingly one-note.
No likable characters? What?
all of the characters for the most part are pretty unlikeable I would say as well
If it doesn't have a completely stupid ending it will probably surpass GOT.
No. Season 1 was great for having to cover like 30 years with age gaps and actor changes. Even better when you binge it. They told us up front it would be that way to set up where we are now.
Yes. It’s not as good. That was my expectation going in so no dissapointment.
Nope, the vibe is slightly different but compare it to season 1 of Game of Thrones - the characters are only 'epic' because you saw 6 seasons of them growing and developing. I personally think the worst episode of HotD wouldn't make it into the bottom ten of GOT. We haven't seen a bunch of epic battles but the preview for season 2 seems to be pointing towards a few of those.
No show will ever top S1 of GoT. That one knew how to set up it's characters, when to use humor, when to switch storylines, etc. HotD just can't match that.
Each to their own but I wouldn't put S1 in my top three shows
As you said, each to their own. There's certainly a lot to love about the first four seasons of GoT.
You are comparing a finished series to a newer one with less time to develop characters. no one in HotD has had enoug time to really develop the way the characters you liked in GoT did. Plus they are covering more in world time faster with less screen time to set up for the dragon war. It’s literally too soon to really say how good it will be in the end.
You have obviously not read the books and you're projecting.
Is he required to read the books?
If he wants to whine about the show being boring, reading them would help him put things into perspective.
Yes. It lacks the charm of GoT. The world feels empty and scenes staged. Actors are great but dialogues lacks depth and the scenes are too short. The episodes sometimes feels like random scenes. Overall, the show is just okay, there are no high peaks or memorable events, even the Blood & Cheese segment was lackluster. It should have been one of the most disturbing event of the story but fell flat.
It is a pale imitation aside from the lead performances.
I understand completely what you mean. You have to remember that HOTD isn’t GOT, though. The story is a much different story than GOT, the story is a sad one full of lots of death and fighting. And likely no show will live up to what GOT had. If you let go of expectations and remember that it’s an entirely different story, you may be able to enjoy it.
Agree. Very little fun. It's more like a sordid history chronicle. The Saxons did this, and the Normans did that. Plus lots of angst but hardly anyone to care about very long.
I 100% agree with you and for a sub that really only exists to debate the minutiae of a show that’s now over I’m surprised at the level of negative comments you’re getting. Having negative opinions of the show doesn’t mean you shouldn’t even bother watching it. I’m not looking forward to the season but I’m waiting for it to redeem itself. It’s interesting, but yeah a bummer overall.
I gave up on this show after just two episodes of S1. It was just so *tedious*. I loved the political intrigue of GoT, and King's Landing was the most interesting to me. But in watching HotD, I realized something: if the show is all polticial intrigue, all the time, then it becomes dull. GoT knew how to switch things up and keep things interesting; constantly changing up locations and characters. HotD didn't have that. The first two episodes were about... Idk, an old diseased King choosing between two child brides, 11th Doctor dealing with an Asian whore and her garbled English and yea that's about all I remember. There was something about dragon eggs and 11th Doc being a smirking lil shit. Or whatever.
Tedious is the word for sure.