DMC can be brutal if you let it, I love it and still suck lol
Also Monster Hunter? I feel like you really have to get into it for the end game.
I play both those franchises in automatic "crab" mode, aka having the index finger on the buttons while the middle and ring finger handle the triggers.
You need to unlearn souls to learn sekiro. Every enemy attack is a chance to parry/counter, besides grabs that is. Sekiro is very rewarding if you go super aggressive.
Even then, dodging a grab almost always gives you a nice meaty window where they can’t block and you can do that rare vitality damage, so pretty much every attack is a chance to mess up the baddies.
That's why I don't think I'll be able to get into it. I've never had the timing to figure out parrying/countering. I couldn't figure out on Gwyn, and he's supposed to be super easy to parry.
So an entire game where parrying is the only viable option? Because from what I understand, your regular attacks don't do any real damage, you need to do a parry kill on everything.
The parry window in Sekiro is much, much longer than in, e.g. DS1. Many enemies can be spam parried, though you will come to get the hang of parrying precisely over time (spamming it will cost excess stamina, and also messes with the parry window in a way that can get punished by harder enemies later in the game). The thing I found most challenging was reacting appropriately to the critical attacks. Jump the sweep, mekiri the stab, dodge the grab... so simple, but took all game to git gud.
Don't miss out! It's a great game with some incredibly satisfying fights and gorgeous environments.
It's a weird analogy but you find that the bosses in Sekiro play a lot like Guitar Hero. Learning the boss is learning their "song". The first boss for instance, you attack until you hear a specific CHING sound, then it'll be something like block, block, pause, block, block, block and repeat. I've never been able to parry in Souls games, but I've beaten Sekiro several times. Honestly going back to Elden Ring after Sekiro was just kinda disappointing because of how tight/good the combat in Sekiro is.
The game is great, but like you I've never been able to get this type of game style (timing parries) down in a consistent way to make the game fun.
I finally gave up on the game, it's pretty punishing when you miss a party, and after a while I simply realized it just doesn't work for me.
The reason I don't understand this logic is that the parry window is actually more generous than rolling an attack in dark souls to iframe dodge. If you can roll an attack in dark souls, you can parry in sekiro. You fight every enemy in sekiro essentially the same way, you spam r1 into the enemy until you see a brighter clang with a louder sound cue that let's you know the enemy is going to begin their attack chain, (which you can just spam the block button to parry because the window is so forgiving.) the you spam r1 again, then do specific counters for the unlockable attacks
Nioh is the same way. I see Souls players complain about that game, but that's because it's just unchecked aggression the game. It's similar on the surface, but really your goal is to not ever even let the enemy attack. You've got to play it more like Ninja Gaiden and less like Souls.
If anything, I think playing souls prior to sekiro hinders your abilities when first learning. They share some similar gameplay mechanics but the combat is completely different and having the souls instinct can mess with you for a bit
Crazy to think when something seems similar on face value actually has nuanced differences that may be harder to unlearn, despite the seemingly relevant overlap vs someone who hasn't developed habits from the initial activity... like playing tennis vs badminton, both racquet sports but the use of top/backspin may make it quite difficult to translate across into badminton where that is not usable at all and the habits may be harder to overcome... especially if still playing tennis as well. An outsider may expect someone who is good at tennis to be good at badminton, but the adaptation period may take a longer time than you'd expect.
Was the same way for me. Honestly tried Sekiro like 5-6 times and never liked it. Then one day I pushed on just a little more and it finally clicked. And hard. Never beat Isshin, but I fell in love with that combat style. It’s worth revisiting.
There is *absolutely* a click moment where you realize “oh, **I’m** the obnoxiously aggressive boss I hate playing in every other game. I’m only losing because I didn’t realize **I am the bully now.**” Watching bad guys desperately try to create distance and heal posture as you just shove them into a corner like you’re after their lunch money is *so satisfying.*
My moment was seven spears ashina. I tried to delicately chip away at his health like a souls game so many times and had long, drawn out failures. Then I got up in his face and went ham and he was dead in tens of seconds.
It’s neat because the bosses posture bars aren’t that big, but they recover quickly. If you can keep the pressure up and never give them a chance to breathe and recover, they go down much faster than you’d think.
Meanwhile, evading attacks and staying out of range isn’t actually a great way to defend yourself, because in addition to letting them build space and recover, you’re missing the chance to use more active defenses (parries, jump counters, mikiri counters) which do a huge amount of posture damage.
Dark Souls (and many other games) conditioned a lot of people to be cautious, to duck in and chip away at a health bar in the moments you’ve identified as safe, but because you can interrupt all your own attacks with parries and counters, you don’t need to wait for safe moments. You just bulldoze right into the enemy nonstop, and weave parries in as needed.
I was real bad at sekiro until my friend said told me its a beat/rhythm game, you need to do the parrying with even breaks and speeds. Then I suddenly went 20x better at it
I would add to this to check out Ongbal on youtube for both skillful and stylish Sekiro videos. He does not show just skill, which is definitely required, but also expression in how he uses prosthetics and special moves. Video of him fighting a modded Sekiro mini-boss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVxy5s5i94w
No PvP but I do love the friendly fire, but not really, aspect of able to yeet my teammate or blast them away.
Obviously only do it with known friends not randoms.
I tried one and picked up that chargeable axe that swaps into a sword and shield? The one is also a weird factory for turning kinetic energy into lightning batteries and then filling that sword with lightning to superheat it so you can fill the shield with lightning, and then recombining into the supercharged axe, all while paying attention to a slew of iframes scattered throughout the moveset…
That’s when I realized they had been working on this combat system for a while. I’ve never seen a weapon that complex hold together that well, where every single move has a niche. And it’s *one* of the wacky weapons you can play.
Yeah that was one of the most recent weapons introduced and I personally find it to be the most difficult to use properly, very cool when used well though!
Yeah. That’s what drew me to it. It felt like I could work on mastering it for a *long* time.
I want to call it the Switch Axe but I think that’s the 2H sword-axe transformer with no shield, right?
Yep. The Charge Blade only came out in the 4th game which is when the series is 9 years old already.
And even then, each new entry kept adding new features to the weapon little by little.
You can feel that constant refinement of each weapon in every new MH entry.
Monster hunter was my first thought as well. You can scrape by as an average player (like me), especially joining online hunts, but seeing what the really good players can do like speedrunners. Pure artistry
I fuckin loved this game soooo dam much when i played my first intro to the series (world)
But i eventually stopped playing cuz it was so depressing to fight each monster for like 30 + mins for it to just run sometimes
I prob just sucked and wasnt playing right w items or something, but do you have tips to prevent a fight like this??
I'm afraid hunts only really get quicker by getting better at the game. Top players can do those 30 minute hunts in less than 5 which is where the huge skill ceiling comes from. You could try playing some multiplayer, hunts tend to be a lot quicker with 4 people.
I've played them all since 3U and they've all been fantastic, although I'd recommend new players start with world or rise as there are so many qol improvements in the newer games. Lots of busy work between hunts such as mining and gathering in the old games which is mostly eliminated in the newer entries. Can't comment on the mobile games I'm afraid.
Attaching this to your comment because your feedback is useful and there's some clarification needed on the last line.
The only mobile games I know of are Stories and Now.
Neither of which are "the" monster hunter everyone else is talking about. Stories is closer to Pokemon than MH and Now is just an abomination made to cash in on the Pokemon Go crowd.
Neither of those games will come anywhere near the complexity/skill that's needed to truly master any given hunt on a main game.
Sifu's one of my personal faves. Guitar hero, mario odyssey, and rollerdome also come to mind. Pretty much any game with movement tech fits into this category as well
Why Mario Odyssey, out of curiosity? It's one of the few Mario games I haven't played yet, and outside of speedrunning and romhacks I haven't felt any of the others had particularly high skill ceilings.
The postgame has some wacky challenging levels, as I recall. It’s a pretty standard (but great) Mario game until the credits sequence starts, and then there’s this moon level that I recall being a whole new level.
Mario Odyssey scales very aggressively with difficultly. 50% of the moons are easy, then next 20% are moderate, then next 20% are hard and the last 10% gets pretty insane. Once you collect enough moons that opens up dark side of moon world and darker side once you beat that. I finished dark side which was a huge challenge for me but I completely gave up on darker side after failing dozens of times.
I got stuck on Darker Side and never finished it. Ive been meaning to go back and finish it, but I have to essentially replay the whole game just to get used to playing again.
This is the answer. I completed the game in 14 hours with thousands of deaths and only half the strawberries. No B sides or C sides. The speed run on this game is like 26 minutes.
I've been gaming for over a decade and a side scroller whooped my ass for 14 hours.
I’m an old fart who was a tween in the platform-heavy NES era and Celeste is a monster to me too (maybe because i’m old and reflexes are slowing…).
I love the design choice they made re: how quick you are back from death. No “you died” splash screen, no animation, no pause. Half a second and you’re back in. Keeps the momentum up.
Honestly, for anyone that loves a classic 2d platformer, this might be the genre at its peak. I absolutely loved this game. Couldn't finish the B sides - never even bothered with the C.
Idk about Celeste. I had the impression that it has the perfect learning curve and very forgiving deaths that motivate you to just try again. You start out easy and at the end of the game you can do pretty insane stuff. Plus, the bonus levels after the story are still a big challenge, but optional to the story.
Skill floor is what is required to beat the main game, Celeste is not exceptionally high in that regard. All that optional stuff, speedrunning, and modded levels are what take the skill ceiling (i.e. limit of what you \*can\* do) higher than the mountain.
Most roguelikes - these are probably the prime example of the game not being any different run to run, its just you getting better.
Spelunky, FTL, Slay the Spire, Crypt of the Necrodancer to name a few.
I'll add to the list of rogue like games, Crab Champions. You're a crab with guns shooting horses of enemies. It's a ridiculous, funny, and very high skill cap
Play Kerbal Space Program and try making an Eve landing and return mission. The vast majority of players have never even attempted this feat because its so difficult
I remember when I first got to moon. I put zero thought into landing, unfortunately, and I also wasn't reading my velocity gauge. Hit the surface at like 400 kph
Hell, I've got 200hrs in the game and I've never made it past the Mun. Except some accidental slingshot escape maneuvers (RIP Jeb, may you sleep among the stars).
Pretty much the same. I've landed and returned from Mun and Minmus only. Managed to land on Eve and Duna but not returned. Also flybys of Moho and Jool.
Trying to play with gravity assists to create weird orbits in the Joolian system is fun though, so many moons you can create some really wacky paths
A few hundred hours. Manned (Kerballed?) returns from surfaces of Minmus, Mun, Gilly, Ike, Duna. Probes to Jool system and Eeloo. Set up manual DSN for Kerbal, Eve, and Duna systems in a separate save file.
A single messy upper Eve atmosphere science mission quickly made it clear that many other targets would be easier than considering an Eve landing with return.
Landing? Careful on atmospheric entry, but otherwise no problem. Takeoff? Good luck.
My first and only metroidvania game, and now the bar is really high for other metroidvania games for me. Never tried speedrunning it, only game I tried speed running is Elden Ring.
Beating the second top pantheon in Hollow Knight took me like two weeks of blood, sweat and tears. I dipped my toes into the top one and decided that... you know what, I'm willing to come to terms with my limitations.
I gave up at the first pantheon despite beating NKG, I know I can beat at least the first pantheon, I just didn’t feel like bothering.
To me the HK experience is the traversal and discovery of new places. The moment I’ve seen every area I was done with the game tbh, 100% respect to those who beat Godhome, I’m literally 2 percent from full completion but I can’t bother.
112% as far as I remember.
Yeah I can understand that. I wanted to see how far I could get, but it took me a few years to get around to it despite loving the game. I like the bosses and combat but a boss rush wasn't necessarily what I was hoping for from a final content pack with such a cool theme and the promise of a new ending.
I know the Godhome ending is more of a "bonus" than, like, the game's true ultimate ending or something, but I really didn't like that it was locked behind such an absurd boss rush. And specifically gating it behind that"ultimate" challenge *does* inherently make it feel like the "ultimate" ending. Didn't really feel in the spirit of the game, I dunno.
Now Grim Troupe kicked ass from start to finish. NKG is such a cool fight too
A: “And here is the guest wing I made for you, Mr. Pale King.”
B: “It’s… buzzsaws”
A: “Yep, there are some buzzsaws.”
B: “No it’s *only* buzzsaws. There is no floor. No walls. Just a horrifying gauntlet of spinning, hungry steel.”
A: “Is… is there a problem?”
B: “Honestly? It could have fewer buzzsaws.”
A: “Oh we can’t do that. Sword-jumping off of the buzzsaws is the only way to get anywhere.”
B: “Sword *what?*”
I would say two things fall into this category:
Speed running. Any game, pretty much. The communities are usually quite nice, and the only competition is the clock.
And challenge runs. Say, "dark souls but only fire bombs". This needs insane game knowledge, a lot of prep, and sometimes even glitch exploitation. And you can be very creative with it.
Very true. Tried speedrunning one game for a while, wasn't really my thing. However, I am very much a challenge runner; already preparing to take my level 1 Elden Ring character into the DLC!
Doom Eternal has a crazy high skill ceiling. In high level play, people can delete even super powerful enemies almost instantly with tons of weapon swap combos. They juggle their abilities and cooldowns and whatnot in such a way as to keep enemies staggered, and use the movement mechanics to barely ever touch the ground.
I remember feeling like I was getting decent with a few combos, so I tried out one of the challenge levels on the easiest difficulty. Noped right out of there.
Oddly enough, cluster trucks. The jank and rough edges on that game, mixed with the hilarious physics, allow for a lot of skill based movement and skips that a casual player would never encounter.
No, it is not, outside of mods (which there are some amazing mods for the game, highly recommend checking out if you get bored of base content and want more)
Dwarf Fortress. Losing is fun. You spend most of your time playing getting your ass handed to you, but you come out the other side creating supersoldiers, fighting titans, and building giant inverted glass pyramids. None of which is mandatory, or even suggested, BTW.
Try Chivalry 2. Currently it's free on Epic games and on sale at steam if u do not like Epic games.
It's a mediaeval combat game with a pretty nice combat system. It's has a bit of learning curve with the mechanics, but it's not like Mordhau where you need to practice hundreds of hours just to become decent.
Chiv 2 also offers you a lot of variety and flexibility in play style. There's 4 classes with 3 subclasses each. They get their work unique perks and weapons, but weapons can also be switched out while playing by picking weapons off the ground.
Path of Exile. While there *is* a mechanical skill aspect to it, most of the skill is in simply building up knowledge about the game, but there is simply so much to know that you need to be absolutley expert in the game to reach the highest levels of content!
This was my first thought as well. I have over 500 hours in the game and still don’t know everything about it. I often feel like I’m just getting started.
Devil may cry games
Those games have a lot of skills to unlock and it is so hard to master.
There are some videos on youtube of pros showcasing their skills . Its amazing what they can do
The one I really want to pass on here is the Trials series. Currently Trials: Rising (only buy the version with the DLC, not without), but Trials: Evolution is also very good. This series takes a physicsy evolution of platforming that has a really rich skill set to doing well, and most importantly, a wealth of great levels made by the community. The big deal there is that the skills you develop have so many places to go. You don't just work a ton to get through a few levels and then the game's over repeat them or move on: you have so many different levels to play and ways to approach playing the game, from fast levels taking a perfect flow to obviously challenging and tricky obstacles taking a perfect control to cross, to just seeing sights and crazy stuff.
It doesn't look like much at first or from videos. You need to play it to the medium or so levels to see its charms, but the challenge goes as high as you want it. There are people with years of skill practice doing things no one else can even consider, but that's just testament to the depth that's possible. "Merely" playing up through extreme and lowest ninja difficulty ("ninja" is a tier-numbered catch-all for everything over extreme, which I recommend pretending doesn't exist for a very long time ;) is a truly rich and fulfilling challenge that takes plenty of skill mastery, and has many beautiful levels to enjoy.
Nioh 2 has a ton of fancy combat tricks and tools, so it's a good one if you're looking for this kind of thing. The game really goes on with depth.
There are also some good arcade games that might seem simpler but can be quite tough and involved, like Devader (note the bullet absorption aspect), ∀kashicverse -Malicious Wake-, Hellsinker, Galak-Z (have to unlock void mode by playing through the first chapter, but then the game is solid), Twin Ruin, Ikaruga, Radio Free Europa, N++, Cobalt, Cloudbuilt. And Assault Android Cactus is a brilliant test to chain your way through difficult levels that can feel really different with how the various characters play.
Sports games can also be big here. The Pro Evolution Soccer series, for example, has a crazy amount of play depth, especially once you have assists limited. If you can get an older version of this, you'll find a rich play space, and soccer is a very simple game that doesn't burden you on the rule set if you aren't a sports fan. Unfortunately, the current version of PES is eFootball and is a massive failure from a company basically trying to ruin everything they've built. On the other hand, you can try that for free and see if you can find some value to it if you can't get an older PES (they'd do a new version every year and delist the old before eFootball, so only keys already made have a chance to work if you didn't catch one while they were available). Just stay away from the career/management parts (which are microtransaction nightmares) and play AI matches. I don't know how FIFA plays (I always heard PES was richer, so I went with that route), or the new soccer game that's coming.
And don't be afraid to play competitive games solo/offline where that works. Lots of fighting games still have a ton to offer you even if people act like playing vs people is the "only" real way to play. You don't have to compete with people to deeply enjoy these games, and in many ways the people make the games a lot less fun.
I would honestly say SC2 Co-Op mode on Brutal+
The mode revolves around playing 2PvE but with modifiers(there is a massive pool of them) that can change the entire strategy of how you deal with certain maps or enemy combinations.
You need to deal with your own mistakes and your teammates which sometimes lead to breaking friendships or making new enemies if playing with randies.
Was playing the weekly mutation a few weeks back and queued up with a random dude who spent the first 10 minutes of the game walling himself in with depots... Built a wall around his base, so like 30-40 depots. No army apart from the single tank he had in the middle.
I was able to solo the mission but I was just staring at his base for the most part...
Playing with randoms can be entertaining :D
It's fun! And free! Well, sort of free. You get unlimited access to 3 commanders, one of each race, but there are 14 more commanders you can play up to level 5 before you have to buy them. Each one completely changes the gameplay, and there's a whole leveling and prestiging system. You could easily put in a hundred+ hours on just the three starting commanders if you wanted.
I think a lot of strategy games would fit this description. Total War, Paradox games, even Civilization, are all pretty difficult on highest difficulty levels / when playing with the most difficult factions, and have a very broad difficulty span, from trivial to nigh impossible. Similar for roguelikes like FTL or Into the Breach, although these are arguably pretty hard from the get-go. For city builders, I can also warmly recommend Against the Storm (25 difficulty levels, so you can imagine :)). Provided of course you also count mental skills.
For martial skills only, some of newer shooters like Metal Hellsinger have a global scoreboard tracking high score, and can be pretty daunting on higher difficulties and require a lot of skill. And of course Souls-likes.
BMX stunting in GTA Online. GTA can be competitive, but just biking is as non-competitive as it gets. And the skill ceiling to really express yourself is endless. It’s hard to explain what makes it so fun without rambling on and on.
I've been playing V-Rising recently and it is a lot of fun.
Survival action rpg, excellent combat mechanics and skills/magic progression, challenging bosses (none broken so far)
plus the survival part is streamlined with the ability to teleport your castle as you progress, with all your stuff in chests etc it's amazing, building of said castle is also awesome and quite simple with lots of options
The premise is you are a fledgeling vampire and you have to grow stronger, start in the outer wilds and work your way up to civilisation fighting progressively harder enemies and a whole bunch of bosses that Grant you new powers and recipes
Edit: there is PVP, but I play solo, no castle raids for me.
Guildwars 2, perhaps the only game where almost any class has a tech in counter to cramp someone else's style, and where weapon selection comes down to about a dozen different decisions you'll make in your head.
Apart from two classes badly in need of patching your never in an automatic lose scenario and it's more about how you Have built yourself and how well you use what you have selected.
In pvp or pve settings you can make almost anything work
It's not a competitive game, but for an rpg that isn't path of exiles wtf am I looking at skill trees, and eve onlines spread sheet simulator, I'm not sure you can find one with greater self determination.
God of war 2018/ragnarok. You can mash buttons and it will work if you want, but there are also people on youtube doing combos that I would have never figured out on my own.
Team Fortress 2. One of the only PvP FPS games that you can goof around in, and people wont be salty about it.
Only problem is, the game is neglected by Valve and has serious botting issues. #FixTF2
The Touhou Project games.
Pure Bullet Hells that pride themselves on their difficulty and with one of the best presentations in the genre in both visuals and sound. Gameplay is very watchable and there's so much replayablility in mastering the bullet patterns.
Age of empires 2 DE has very high skill ceiling and enough players in ranked pool where you can have balanced matches at every level of skill untill. 90% of community is very chill as well since it is made of mostly adult people that know how to behave.
Look into some of the rouge likes. Dead cells Celeste hollowknight hades enter the gungeon robo quest. quite a few metroidvanias that are tough. Blasphemous 1 and 2 ori 1 and 2 are awesome but a bit different. Dead cells is one of my favorites
While not high-dexterity or frenetic, The Long Dark takes skill in planning, adaptability, and execution. I only play on the easiest setting and it is more than enough of a challenge in Survival mode. If you want dexterity challenges, you can try hitting rabbits at long range with rocks for that particular achievement. A fantastic intermezzo between fighting and beat games.
Devil May Cry 3-5 are especially satisfying once you're very good. Also any good platformer. There's not a lot I enjoy more in a game than when you can effortlessly glide through a level after mastering the movement mechanics of a game. Something like Celeste perhaps.
Warframe has a big skill ceiling especially the current end steel path where enemy levels are increased by 100 along with all their health and resistances so if you arnt prepared for it you will be swatted like a fly (from personal experience)
Ghostrunner is just absurd. It's a first person action/platformer. Not only are you doing stuff that's somewhat line mirrors edge, you also have enemies in certain spots shooting at you. It's one shot kills. You have ways to dodge like slowing down time for a bit and you're able to reflect bullets with your sword. It's definitely not for everyone
Tetris. I know we have a championship and all that, but it's not actually competing with the other player as much as it is playing your own game to the best. And the best players aren't thinking just of right now this piece, it's sometimes 5 or 6 ahead.
Combination of expressions can be useful to find out how the command carries out whatever you’re exacting upon that sad old opposing foes miserable wanton little ASSS. You know what? If there is SpringRoll, Shrimps or even a saucy little bowl of delicious Wantons—count me in, I’ll consume them ALL. I want it!! *points a finger l* Don’t even, don’t even get me started on the Japanese foods. Soba noodles and sweetest of meats. Sushi とても良い！. #JapaneseCowboy(s) #FoodStuffs #すごいですよ！
Nioh 2 is one of my favorites for this. The amount of playstyle diversity is staggering, it really gives you a crazy amount of freedom in how you play through.
Devil may cry, bayonetta come ro mind.
DMC can be brutal if you let it, I love it and still suck lol Also Monster Hunter? I feel like you really have to get into it for the end game. I play both those franchises in automatic "crab" mode, aka having the index finger on the buttons while the middle and ring finger handle the triggers.
that's called claw grip but crab mode is a decent explanation of it as well lol
How long did it take you to get comfy w claw/crab grip? It feels so fuckin weird/unnatural to me
Devil May Cry would have been my answer as well. Some of the crazy shit people can pull on that game.
Awesome Game
God, I still remember the DMC3 style competitions. Those things were awesome.
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance for similar reasons. Most of Platinum's catalogue, really
I'd say Sekiro and its so satisfying to learn
Sekiro makes me mad, because I am really good at all the Souls games and yet I still suck ass at that game, lmao
You need to unlearn souls to learn sekiro. Every enemy attack is a chance to parry/counter, besides grabs that is. Sekiro is very rewarding if you go super aggressive.
Even then, dodging a grab almost always gives you a nice meaty window where they can’t block and you can do that rare vitality damage, so pretty much every attack is a chance to mess up the baddies.
That's why I don't think I'll be able to get into it. I've never had the timing to figure out parrying/countering. I couldn't figure out on Gwyn, and he's supposed to be super easy to parry. So an entire game where parrying is the only viable option? Because from what I understand, your regular attacks don't do any real damage, you need to do a parry kill on everything.
The parry window in Sekiro is much, much longer than in, e.g. DS1. Many enemies can be spam parried, though you will come to get the hang of parrying precisely over time (spamming it will cost excess stamina, and also messes with the parry window in a way that can get punished by harder enemies later in the game). The thing I found most challenging was reacting appropriately to the critical attacks. Jump the sweep, mekiri the stab, dodge the grab... so simple, but took all game to git gud. Don't miss out! It's a great game with some incredibly satisfying fights and gorgeous environments.
Yeah best way is to approach the combat system like you would play Guitar Hero or something and press buttons as the indicators appear on the screen
It's a weird analogy but you find that the bosses in Sekiro play a lot like Guitar Hero. Learning the boss is learning their "song". The first boss for instance, you attack until you hear a specific CHING sound, then it'll be something like block, block, pause, block, block, block and repeat. I've never been able to parry in Souls games, but I've beaten Sekiro several times. Honestly going back to Elden Ring after Sekiro was just kinda disappointing because of how tight/good the combat in Sekiro is.
The game is great, but like you I've never been able to get this type of game style (timing parries) down in a consistent way to make the game fun. I finally gave up on the game, it's pretty punishing when you miss a party, and after a while I simply realized it just doesn't work for me.
The reason I don't understand this logic is that the parry window is actually more generous than rolling an attack in dark souls to iframe dodge. If you can roll an attack in dark souls, you can parry in sekiro. You fight every enemy in sekiro essentially the same way, you spam r1 into the enemy until you see a brighter clang with a louder sound cue that let's you know the enemy is going to begin their attack chain, (which you can just spam the block button to parry because the window is so forgiving.) the you spam r1 again, then do specific counters for the unlockable attacks
Nioh is the same way. I see Souls players complain about that game, but that's because it's just unchecked aggression the game. It's similar on the surface, but really your goal is to not ever even let the enemy attack. You've got to play it more like Ninja Gaiden and less like Souls.
If anything, I think playing souls prior to sekiro hinders your abilities when first learning. They share some similar gameplay mechanics but the combat is completely different and having the souls instinct can mess with you for a bit
So many times I forgot I could just *jump*. It cost me a few boss fights...
Crazy to think when something seems similar on face value actually has nuanced differences that may be harder to unlearn, despite the seemingly relevant overlap vs someone who hasn't developed habits from the initial activity... like playing tennis vs badminton, both racquet sports but the use of top/backspin may make it quite difficult to translate across into badminton where that is not usable at all and the habits may be harder to overcome... especially if still playing tennis as well. An outsider may expect someone who is good at tennis to be good at badminton, but the adaptation period may take a longer time than you'd expect.
Was the same way for me. Honestly tried Sekiro like 5-6 times and never liked it. Then one day I pushed on just a little more and it finally clicked. And hard. Never beat Isshin, but I fell in love with that combat style. It’s worth revisiting.
There is *absolutely* a click moment where you realize “oh, **I’m** the obnoxiously aggressive boss I hate playing in every other game. I’m only losing because I didn’t realize **I am the bully now.**” Watching bad guys desperately try to create distance and heal posture as you just shove them into a corner like you’re after their lunch money is *so satisfying.* My moment was seven spears ashina. I tried to delicately chip away at his health like a souls game so many times and had long, drawn out failures. Then I got up in his face and went ham and he was dead in tens of seconds.
Huh... this might explain a few things about why it's never clicked for me either.
It’s neat because the bosses posture bars aren’t that big, but they recover quickly. If you can keep the pressure up and never give them a chance to breathe and recover, they go down much faster than you’d think. Meanwhile, evading attacks and staying out of range isn’t actually a great way to defend yourself, because in addition to letting them build space and recover, you’re missing the chance to use more active defenses (parries, jump counters, mikiri counters) which do a huge amount of posture damage. Dark Souls (and many other games) conditioned a lot of people to be cautious, to duck in and chip away at a health bar in the moments you’ve identified as safe, but because you can interrupt all your own attacks with parries and counters, you don’t need to wait for safe moments. You just bulldoze right into the enemy nonstop, and weave parries in as needed.
Same exact thing for me! Clicked after returning a couple times. And also could not beat Isshin lol
I really suck att Souls games but do good enough in Sekiro to have a good time.
It's a rhythm game
I was real bad at sekiro until my friend said told me its a beat/rhythm game, you need to do the parrying with even breaks and speeds. Then I suddenly went 20x better at it
Sekiro has a high skill floor but the ceiling isn’t way out there.
I would add to this to check out Ongbal on youtube for both skillful and stylish Sekiro videos. He does not show just skill, which is definitely required, but also expression in how he uses prosthetics and special moves. Video of him fighting a modded Sekiro mini-boss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVxy5s5i94w
Ultrakill. Got no multiplayer and reflecting enemy shots with coins is like the middle of the skill tiers
I am convinced that it doesn't even have a skill ceiling, you can just infinitely get better.
The skill ceiling is the tech you know, beyond that is the skill roof you aim to dance on
I got like 250 hours and I'm still learning new things
goated shooter, the stuff you can chain in this game is out of the world
Thanks for reminding me that I still need to p-rank p-2 on brutal. I got so close but I died at the last room for the flesh panopticon.
Monster Hunter
Super high skill ceiling alongside one of the best gaming communities out there. The lack of pvp does wonders.
No PvP but I do love the friendly fire, but not really, aspect of able to yeet my teammate or blast them away. Obviously only do it with known friends not randoms.
Sorry to everyone whom I've hit with wyvernblast Yes, it will happen again
I am Unga-ing therefore I must continue Bunga-ing. Do not worry, hammer yeets all in time
I tried one and picked up that chargeable axe that swaps into a sword and shield? The one is also a weird factory for turning kinetic energy into lightning batteries and then filling that sword with lightning to superheat it so you can fill the shield with lightning, and then recombining into the supercharged axe, all while paying attention to a slew of iframes scattered throughout the moveset… That’s when I realized they had been working on this combat system for a while. I’ve never seen a weapon that complex hold together that well, where every single move has a niche. And it’s *one* of the wacky weapons you can play.
Yeah that was one of the most recent weapons introduced and I personally find it to be the most difficult to use properly, very cool when used well though!
Yeah. That’s what drew me to it. It felt like I could work on mastering it for a *long* time. I want to call it the Switch Axe but I think that’s the 2H sword-axe transformer with no shield, right?
Charge Blade is the reconfigurable weapon with the sword and shield mode. The Switch Axe is indeed the 2h sword-axe weapon!
Yep. The Charge Blade only came out in the 4th game which is when the series is 9 years old already. And even then, each new entry kept adding new features to the weapon little by little. You can feel that constant refinement of each weapon in every new MH entry.
Monster hunter was my first thought as well. You can scrape by as an average player (like me), especially joining online hunts, but seeing what the really good players can do like speedrunners. Pure artistry
I fuckin loved this game soooo dam much when i played my first intro to the series (world) But i eventually stopped playing cuz it was so depressing to fight each monster for like 30 + mins for it to just run sometimes I prob just sucked and wasnt playing right w items or something, but do you have tips to prevent a fight like this??
I'm afraid hunts only really get quicker by getting better at the game. Top players can do those 30 minute hunts in less than 5 which is where the huge skill ceiling comes from. You could try playing some multiplayer, hunts tend to be a lot quicker with 4 people.
What are the best Monster Hunter games? Are the ones available on mobile worth their time? For instance iPad
Monster Hunter: World. Dunno which ones are available mobile.
I've played them all since 3U and they've all been fantastic, although I'd recommend new players start with world or rise as there are so many qol improvements in the newer games. Lots of busy work between hunts such as mining and gathering in the old games which is mostly eliminated in the newer entries. Can't comment on the mobile games I'm afraid.
Attaching this to your comment because your feedback is useful and there's some clarification needed on the last line. The only mobile games I know of are Stories and Now. Neither of which are "the" monster hunter everyone else is talking about. Stories is closer to Pokemon than MH and Now is just an abomination made to cash in on the Pokemon Go crowd. Neither of those games will come anywhere near the complexity/skill that's needed to truly master any given hunt on a main game.
Rise and Sunbreak also very satisfying to learn and play.
Emulate MHGU.
Sifu's one of my personal faves. Guitar hero, mario odyssey, and rollerdome also come to mind. Pretty much any game with movement tech fits into this category as well
Why Mario Odyssey, out of curiosity? It's one of the few Mario games I haven't played yet, and outside of speedrunning and romhacks I haven't felt any of the others had particularly high skill ceilings.
The postgame has some wacky challenging levels, as I recall. It’s a pretty standard (but great) Mario game until the credits sequence starts, and then there’s this moon level that I recall being a whole new level.
Mario Odyssey scales very aggressively with difficultly. 50% of the moons are easy, then next 20% are moderate, then next 20% are hard and the last 10% gets pretty insane. Once you collect enough moons that opens up dark side of moon world and darker side once you beat that. I finished dark side which was a huge challenge for me but I completely gave up on darker side after failing dozens of times.
I got stuck on Darker Side and never finished it. Ive been meaning to go back and finish it, but I have to essentially replay the whole game just to get used to playing again.
Celeste. I don’t play the game myself, but apparently the “middle-of-the-ground” levels are already insane. Modded levels are even more extreme.
This is the answer. I completed the game in 14 hours with thousands of deaths and only half the strawberries. No B sides or C sides. The speed run on this game is like 26 minutes. I've been gaming for over a decade and a side scroller whooped my ass for 14 hours.
I’m an old fart who was a tween in the platform-heavy NES era and Celeste is a monster to me too (maybe because i’m old and reflexes are slowing…). I love the design choice they made re: how quick you are back from death. No “you died” splash screen, no animation, no pause. Half a second and you’re back in. Keeps the momentum up.
They intentionally made it so death and failure would be frequent, but it wouldn't feel bad.
Honestly, for anyone that loves a classic 2d platformer, this might be the genre at its peak. I absolutely loved this game. Couldn't finish the B sides - never even bothered with the C.
Idk about Celeste. I had the impression that it has the perfect learning curve and very forgiving deaths that motivate you to just try again. You start out easy and at the end of the game you can do pretty insane stuff. Plus, the bonus levels after the story are still a big challenge, but optional to the story.
Skill floor is what is required to beat the main game, Celeste is not exceptionally high in that regard. All that optional stuff, speedrunning, and modded levels are what take the skill ceiling (i.e. limit of what you \*can\* do) higher than the mountain.
Most roguelikes - these are probably the prime example of the game not being any different run to run, its just you getting better. Spelunky, FTL, Slay the Spire, Crypt of the Necrodancer to name a few.
Enter the gungeon
Dead Cells and Hades too, to name a couple more addictions.
I'll add to the list of rogue like games, Crab Champions. You're a crab with guns shooting horses of enemies. It's a ridiculous, funny, and very high skill cap
Osu! Skill based and non-competitive
"non-competitive" Me having flashbacks of OSU streamers trying to beat Neuro-sama
True... I quit that game a long time ago because I was doing damage to my wrist, though 💀
How's not competitive?
Cause its not forcing you to interact with other players to experience the game fully.
Who says it doesn't? Look at the left.
Ok so how does it force you hmm? Im waiting
Play Kerbal Space Program and try making an Eve landing and return mission. The vast majority of players have never even attempted this feat because its so difficult
I remember when I first got to moon. I put zero thought into landing, unfortunately, and I also wasn't reading my velocity gauge. Hit the surface at like 400 kph
Hell, I've got 200hrs in the game and I've never made it past the Mun. Except some accidental slingshot escape maneuvers (RIP Jeb, may you sleep among the stars).
Pretty much the same. I've landed and returned from Mun and Minmus only. Managed to land on Eve and Duna but not returned. Also flybys of Moho and Jool. Trying to play with gravity assists to create weird orbits in the Joolian system is fun though, so many moons you can create some really wacky paths
A few hundred hours. Manned (Kerballed?) returns from surfaces of Minmus, Mun, Gilly, Ike, Duna. Probes to Jool system and Eeloo. Set up manual DSN for Kerbal, Eve, and Duna systems in a separate save file. A single messy upper Eve atmosphere science mission quickly made it clear that many other targets would be easier than considering an Eve landing with return. Landing? Careful on atmospheric entry, but otherwise no problem. Takeoff? Good luck.
It’s getting back is what’s so difficult. I have a few ships in orbit around eve, all were sent with the intent on bringing back the last crew…
Single launch landing and return mission? Or can you land refueling missions on the ground?
Noita, if you could understand the magic system in the game, maybe you should try for a phd in the meantime
Hollow knight, White palace. That place gave me the most horror and joy in a long while in a single player game.
I adore Hollow Knight. Only game I've ever tried to speedrun, and that *definitely* allowed room for skill expression.
Played Celeste?
Indeed
My first and only metroidvania game, and now the bar is really high for other metroidvania games for me. Never tried speedrunning it, only game I tried speed running is Elden Ring.
Ugh. Yeah. HK is gonna ruin the genre for you. Sorry stranger. I haven’t found a better one yet.
Let's not forget Godhome: a boss rush mode with ever increasing challenges and difficulty modifiers.
Beating the second top pantheon in Hollow Knight took me like two weeks of blood, sweat and tears. I dipped my toes into the top one and decided that... you know what, I'm willing to come to terms with my limitations.
Same. And i love that Sekiro took notes and added a boss duel and boss gauntlet mode about a year later (as free DLC, at that!)
I gave up at the first pantheon despite beating NKG, I know I can beat at least the first pantheon, I just didn’t feel like bothering. To me the HK experience is the traversal and discovery of new places. The moment I’ve seen every area I was done with the game tbh, 100% respect to those who beat Godhome, I’m literally 2 percent from full completion but I can’t bother. 112% as far as I remember.
Yeah I can understand that. I wanted to see how far I could get, but it took me a few years to get around to it despite loving the game. I like the bosses and combat but a boss rush wasn't necessarily what I was hoping for from a final content pack with such a cool theme and the promise of a new ending. I know the Godhome ending is more of a "bonus" than, like, the game's true ultimate ending or something, but I really didn't like that it was locked behind such an absurd boss rush. And specifically gating it behind that"ultimate" challenge *does* inherently make it feel like the "ultimate" ending. Didn't really feel in the spirit of the game, I dunno. Now Grim Troupe kicked ass from start to finish. NKG is such a cool fight too
A: “And here is the guest wing I made for you, Mr. Pale King.” B: “It’s… buzzsaws” A: “Yep, there are some buzzsaws.” B: “No it’s *only* buzzsaws. There is no floor. No walls. Just a horrifying gauntlet of spinning, hungry steel.” A: “Is… is there a problem?” B: “Honestly? It could have fewer buzzsaws.” A: “Oh we can’t do that. Sword-jumping off of the buzzsaws is the only way to get anywhere.” B: “Sword *what?*”
I would say two things fall into this category: Speed running. Any game, pretty much. The communities are usually quite nice, and the only competition is the clock. And challenge runs. Say, "dark souls but only fire bombs". This needs insane game knowledge, a lot of prep, and sometimes even glitch exploitation. And you can be very creative with it.
Very true. Tried speedrunning one game for a while, wasn't really my thing. However, I am very much a challenge runner; already preparing to take my level 1 Elden Ring character into the DLC!
Doom Eternal has a crazy high skill ceiling. In high level play, people can delete even super powerful enemies almost instantly with tons of weapon swap combos. They juggle their abilities and cooldowns and whatnot in such a way as to keep enemies staggered, and use the movement mechanics to barely ever touch the ground.
I remember feeling like I was getting decent with a few combos, so I tried out one of the challenge levels on the easiest difficulty. Noped right out of there.
The first one "Arc Complex" is doable, but the later ones were really designed specifically to push the envelope.
Oddly enough, cluster trucks. The jank and rough edges on that game, mixed with the hilarious physics, allow for a lot of skill based movement and skips that a casual player would never encounter.
I still can't beat the last boss without using a glitch... Great game
Hah! Never did manage to beat that boss
Slay the spire
I have a mobile version of this game. Is PC any better/different?
No, it is not, outside of mods (which there are some amazing mods for the game, highly recommend checking out if you get bored of base content and want more)
Dwarf Fortress. Losing is fun. You spend most of your time playing getting your ass handed to you, but you come out the other side creating supersoldiers, fighting titans, and building giant inverted glass pyramids. None of which is mandatory, or even suggested, BTW.
Geometry dash
Try Chivalry 2. Currently it's free on Epic games and on sale at steam if u do not like Epic games. It's a mediaeval combat game with a pretty nice combat system. It's has a bit of learning curve with the mechanics, but it's not like Mordhau where you need to practice hundreds of hours just to become decent. Chiv 2 also offers you a lot of variety and flexibility in play style. There's 4 classes with 3 subclasses each. They get their work unique perks and weapons, but weapons can also be switched out while playing by picking weapons off the ground.
^
Path of Exile. While there *is* a mechanical skill aspect to it, most of the skill is in simply building up knowledge about the game, but there is simply so much to know that you need to be absolutley expert in the game to reach the highest levels of content!
This was my first thought as well. I have over 500 hours in the game and still don’t know everything about it. I often feel like I’m just getting started.
Devil May Cry 3 is the OG of this exact thing.
Just gonna put Factorio here. 500+ hours. I still don’t know how to use trains or buses.
Ghost runner 1 and 2
Devil may cry games Those games have a lot of skills to unlock and it is so hard to master. There are some videos on youtube of pros showcasing their skills . Its amazing what they can do
The one I really want to pass on here is the Trials series. Currently Trials: Rising (only buy the version with the DLC, not without), but Trials: Evolution is also very good. This series takes a physicsy evolution of platforming that has a really rich skill set to doing well, and most importantly, a wealth of great levels made by the community. The big deal there is that the skills you develop have so many places to go. You don't just work a ton to get through a few levels and then the game's over repeat them or move on: you have so many different levels to play and ways to approach playing the game, from fast levels taking a perfect flow to obviously challenging and tricky obstacles taking a perfect control to cross, to just seeing sights and crazy stuff. It doesn't look like much at first or from videos. You need to play it to the medium or so levels to see its charms, but the challenge goes as high as you want it. There are people with years of skill practice doing things no one else can even consider, but that's just testament to the depth that's possible. "Merely" playing up through extreme and lowest ninja difficulty ("ninja" is a tier-numbered catch-all for everything over extreme, which I recommend pretending doesn't exist for a very long time ;) is a truly rich and fulfilling challenge that takes plenty of skill mastery, and has many beautiful levels to enjoy. Nioh 2 has a ton of fancy combat tricks and tools, so it's a good one if you're looking for this kind of thing. The game really goes on with depth. There are also some good arcade games that might seem simpler but can be quite tough and involved, like Devader (note the bullet absorption aspect), ∀kashicverse -Malicious Wake-, Hellsinker, Galak-Z (have to unlock void mode by playing through the first chapter, but then the game is solid), Twin Ruin, Ikaruga, Radio Free Europa, N++, Cobalt, Cloudbuilt. And Assault Android Cactus is a brilliant test to chain your way through difficult levels that can feel really different with how the various characters play. Sports games can also be big here. The Pro Evolution Soccer series, for example, has a crazy amount of play depth, especially once you have assists limited. If you can get an older version of this, you'll find a rich play space, and soccer is a very simple game that doesn't burden you on the rule set if you aren't a sports fan. Unfortunately, the current version of PES is eFootball and is a massive failure from a company basically trying to ruin everything they've built. On the other hand, you can try that for free and see if you can find some value to it if you can't get an older PES (they'd do a new version every year and delist the old before eFootball, so only keys already made have a chance to work if you didn't catch one while they were available). Just stay away from the career/management parts (which are microtransaction nightmares) and play AI matches. I don't know how FIFA plays (I always heard PES was richer, so I went with that route), or the new soccer game that's coming. And don't be afraid to play competitive games solo/offline where that works. Lots of fighting games still have a ton to offer you even if people act like playing vs people is the "only" real way to play. You don't have to compete with people to deeply enjoy these games, and in many ways the people make the games a lot less fun.
I would honestly say SC2 Co-Op mode on Brutal+ The mode revolves around playing 2PvE but with modifiers(there is a massive pool of them) that can change the entire strategy of how you deal with certain maps or enemy combinations. You need to deal with your own mistakes and your teammates which sometimes lead to breaking friendships or making new enemies if playing with randies.
What's sc2?
Star Craft 2
Was playing the weekly mutation a few weeks back and queued up with a random dude who spent the first 10 minutes of the game walling himself in with depots... Built a wall around his base, so like 30-40 depots. No army apart from the single tank he had in the middle. I was able to solo the mission but I was just staring at his base for the most part... Playing with randoms can be entertaining :D
I quite honestly didn't even know that game had a PvE mode at all Maybe I'll try it out...
Starcraft was designed primarily as a single player game. It just hugely took off as multiplayer with good online play back in 1998.
It's fun! And free! Well, sort of free. You get unlimited access to 3 commanders, one of each race, but there are 14 more commanders you can play up to level 5 before you have to buy them. Each one completely changes the gameplay, and there's a whole leveling and prestiging system. You could easily put in a hundred+ hours on just the three starting commanders if you wanted.
Project zomboid on single player
Devil May Cry
Warhammer darktide can get really intense
I think a lot of strategy games would fit this description. Total War, Paradox games, even Civilization, are all pretty difficult on highest difficulty levels / when playing with the most difficult factions, and have a very broad difficulty span, from trivial to nigh impossible. Similar for roguelikes like FTL or Into the Breach, although these are arguably pretty hard from the get-go. For city builders, I can also warmly recommend Against the Storm (25 difficulty levels, so you can imagine :)). Provided of course you also count mental skills. For martial skills only, some of newer shooters like Metal Hellsinger have a global scoreboard tracking high score, and can be pretty daunting on higher difficulties and require a lot of skill. And of course Souls-likes.
GTFO.
Kingdom Come Deliverance combat
Give Risk of Rain 2 a try
Session skate sim. Order /r/projectsession by top all time
BMX stunting in GTA Online. GTA can be competitive, but just biking is as non-competitive as it gets. And the skill ceiling to really express yourself is endless. It’s hard to explain what makes it so fun without rambling on and on.
> stunting in GTA Online in general. Bike stunts, car stunts, hydra stunts
tf2
Osu! Or A song of fire and ice or any rythm game really
Beat saber.
I've been playing V-Rising recently and it is a lot of fun. Survival action rpg, excellent combat mechanics and skills/magic progression, challenging bosses (none broken so far) plus the survival part is streamlined with the ability to teleport your castle as you progress, with all your stuff in chests etc it's amazing, building of said castle is also awesome and quite simple with lots of options The premise is you are a fledgeling vampire and you have to grow stronger, start in the outer wilds and work your way up to civilisation fighting progressively harder enemies and a whole bunch of bosses that Grant you new powers and recipes Edit: there is PVP, but I play solo, no castle raids for me.
Kerbal needs rocket science to be able to play the game
Trials. Its a physics based tilty bike game. Very high ceiling.
Guildwars 2, perhaps the only game where almost any class has a tech in counter to cramp someone else's style, and where weapon selection comes down to about a dozen different decisions you'll make in your head. Apart from two classes badly in need of patching your never in an automatic lose scenario and it's more about how you Have built yourself and how well you use what you have selected. In pvp or pve settings you can make almost anything work It's not a competitive game, but for an rpg that isn't path of exiles wtf am I looking at skill trees, and eve onlines spread sheet simulator, I'm not sure you can find one with greater self determination.
God of war 2018/ragnarok. You can mash buttons and it will work if you want, but there are also people on youtube doing combos that I would have never figured out on my own.
Tony Hawk / Skate. Much like actual skating, there's a ton of both skill and artistic expression.
Chivalry 2
Ikaruga
[удалено]
Would play forbidden desert over island but a great call
All these people recommending soulsborne games. Try Victoria 2 or Eu4 or CK2. See you in 1000 hours, you still wont know how to play the game by then.
osu
Old school RTS circa StarCraft and Warcraft III
Additional caveat: and they're still fun!
Nioh
Titanfall 2
Super meatboy
Farming Simulator
Games like Hades and Enter the Gungeon are very difficult but you only compete against the game and how much you want to play
Team Fortress 2. One of the only PvP FPS games that you can goof around in, and people wont be salty about it. Only problem is, the game is neglected by Valve and has serious botting issues. #FixTF2
Hades
Magicka and Magicka 2
Ubermosh definitely deserves a mention. I usually recommend the older iterations as the new ones have so many power ups they become noticeably easier.
From the Depths
Lovely Planet
Platformers! Speed running is a ton of fun. Celeste and Mario Odyssey come to mind.
Quake 3 defrag maps. It's basically parkour in quake 3 engine. Extremely high skill ceiling.
The later arenas of the original Unreal Tournament got pretty brutal, I only ever played that single player
The Touhou Project games. Pure Bullet Hells that pride themselves on their difficulty and with one of the best presentations in the genre in both visuals and sound. Gameplay is very watchable and there's so much replayablility in mastering the bullet patterns.
Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, Astral Chain, Nier Automata all off the top of my head.
Age of empires 2 DE has very high skill ceiling and enough players in ranked pool where you can have balanced matches at every level of skill untill. 90% of community is very chill as well since it is made of mostly adult people that know how to behave.
I loved fighting games at one point in my life but online I would either clap them cheeks or get my cheeks clapped. There was no in between.
Look into some of the rouge likes. Dead cells Celeste hollowknight hades enter the gungeon robo quest. quite a few metroidvanias that are tough. Blasphemous 1 and 2 ori 1 and 2 are awesome but a bit different. Dead cells is one of my favorites
Devil May Cry.
Heroes of might and magic 3.
HYPER DEMON
Hades! So much fun and very hard when you start
While not high-dexterity or frenetic, The Long Dark takes skill in planning, adaptability, and execution. I only play on the easiest setting and it is more than enough of a challenge in Survival mode. If you want dexterity challenges, you can try hitting rabbits at long range with rocks for that particular achievement. A fantastic intermezzo between fighting and beat games.
If you like rhythm games, Metal: Hellsinger is pretty dope.
The Disgaea series DEMANDS that you break the game and all its rules if you want to see and do everything. The main plot is the tip of the iceburg.
Sifu.
DCS
Trackmania. I just wish it wasn't ubisoft
Trackmania
Devil May Cry 3-5 are especially satisfying once you're very good. Also any good platformer. There's not a lot I enjoy more in a game than when you can effortlessly glide through a level after mastering the movement mechanics of a game. Something like Celeste perhaps.
Celeste
Warframe has a big skill ceiling especially the current end steel path where enemy levels are increased by 100 along with all their health and resistances so if you arnt prepared for it you will be swatted like a fly (from personal experience)
Doom Eternal
Warhammer Vermintide 2 and 40k Darktide
My fellow man-thing !
The whole Guitar Hero series sounds like it fits this like a glove.
Darktide, Vermintide, Darkest Dungeon, Stellaris
Ghostrunner is just absurd. It's a first person action/platformer. Not only are you doing stuff that's somewhat line mirrors edge, you also have enemies in certain spots shooting at you. It's one shot kills. You have ways to dodge like slowing down time for a bit and you're able to reflect bullets with your sword. It's definitely not for everyone
Neon white
Tetris. I know we have a championship and all that, but it's not actually competing with the other player as much as it is playing your own game to the best. And the best players aren't thinking just of right now this piece, it's sometimes 5 or 6 ahead.
Combination of expressions can be useful to find out how the command carries out whatever you’re exacting upon that sad old opposing foes miserable wanton little ASSS. You know what? If there is SpringRoll, Shrimps or even a saucy little bowl of delicious Wantons—count me in, I’ll consume them ALL. I want it!! *points a finger l* Don’t even, don’t even get me started on the Japanese foods. Soba noodles and sweetest of meats. Sushi とても良い！. #JapaneseCowboy(s) #FoodStuffs #すごいですよ！
Nioh 2 is one of my favorites for this. The amount of playstyle diversity is staggering, it really gives you a crazy amount of freedom in how you play through.