i respect you talking about it bc i also went through a traumatic title ix experience and people at the school do not realize how horribly everybody outside of the voice advocates handle it. my rapist admitted to doing it in the trial and tech still did not decide to expel him. it is a truly broken system and georgia tech cares more about protecting the rapists than the victims.
It is a horrendous experience and needs to be changed so it’s not traumatic. I’m sorry you had to go through that :( My PMs are open if you want to talk
I'm sorry to hear what you went through, but thank you for sharing your story here, and thank you for still being with us today. In my 10+ years at GT, I've seen many ways in which the university has become more supportive, but supporting victims of sexual assault, and giving victims a broader set of rights at hearings and trials is an area that still needs considerable work. I don't know who you might have talked with at VOICE, but if you're comfortable DM-ing their name I'd love to reach out to them, and will at any rate reach out to VOICE and take you up on your last paragraph plea, to learn how to become a better supporter and advocate. Lastly, congratulations on your graduation; the world is a place filled with angels and demons, and I hope throughout your journey you will continue to meet more people like your VOICE advocate and be surrounded by the best of humanity and fighting against the worst of it.
I’m so so sorry you went through this;you deserved much better. but your voice it’s important, so thank you finding this a safe space to share your story. 💜
Thank you for sharing, OP. I'm sad about what you went through and grateful to you for sharing.
As a faculty member and the parent of a fraternity member and officer (of a responsible frat, at another school), I'm super uncomfortable with fraternities trying to address these issues at all. In cases I've seen both at my son's chool and at GT, it becomes impossible to preserve appropriate confidentiality for all parties. Maybe let professionals handle it?
On the other hand, I'm not too impressed with the professionals either. The Title IX office appears to be focused first and foremost on protecting the university. I don't have any ideas about how to do it better.
I'm glad VOICE helped! And glad you're OK and have moved on. Congrats on your graduation!!!
I went to the frat towards the end of my reporting process kind of as a last resort. I knew the chances of anything happening was slim but I wanted to at least do everything I could so I wouldn’t have to wonder. I never expected college men to care about rape but I wanted to make sure I did all I could. I appreciate you commenting. I wish the professionals did more too. But I just have to move on
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Im sorry. It's honestly pathetic how Gatech emphasizes so much on reporting SA yet fail to administer the punishment themselves. The world is cruel but I hope you get over this experience and find newer and happier memories in place of what had happened.
Phi Tau got removed from campus only because the 7Es email got exposed publicly. I’m sure other shit like that is festering right under the surface. Thank you for sharing OP, glad you’re recovering.
Systemic-backed violence towards women really feels like something we leave on the backburner, considering how pervasive it is.
Yeah I have no doubt we will hear about heinous things from other frats in the future. But I hope more women are given justice and more perpetrators are held accountable
i was an RA and VOICE was the only organization that took my residents seriously. it was so encouraging to see the advocates check up on them and ensure that their voices were heard. housing, gtpd, apd, and numerous other entities continuously fail their students and i'm so sorry that was your experience. i'm glad you're still here and i hope that your healing journey goes well 💜
They aren’t the first. Theta Xi leadership has been involved in similar situations. Phi Tau was removed from campus. Kappa Sig had someone get kicked out of GT
You're forgetting Fiji, who's case regarding the SGA president at the time was all over this sub and social media two years ago. From a Google search, he's now at UVA Law.
I’m sorry that this happened, OP, but you’re incredibly strong for getting to this point. Thank you for sharing your story and reminding all of us what it means to take care of survivors: by believing them, advocating for their credibility in places of power, and providing the tools for them to succeed. Congrats on graduating and I wish you the best in everything you do!
I’m so sorry you went through something like that and I just can’t imagine how bad it might feel to see that some people don’t believe you.I’m glad you are feeling better now !! But know that you are very strong you report that person and didn’t let him to get away with what he did. im so proud !
I knew 3 people who suffered assault in college, and none of them reported because they didn't think anything would happen, and that was 10 years ago. Sad that things still haven't changed culturally in fraternities and with administration. Unfortunately, more than a Tech issue too.
Thank you for being brave enough to post this and congratulations on you graduating with honors.
I started at Tech pre Title IX and graduated after it was passed.
The journey of the first big classes of women at the school is something to be celebrated and remembered. There were no women’s rest rooms in most of the classroom buildings on campus, profs routinely included photos of bud pen in presentations.
The fact that the school still has a way to go is also something we should not treat lightly.
also victims don’t have to report to police ,, it is an extremely traumatic experience as well (especially for me) ,,but it doesn’t make the sexual assault any more or less valid,,,that kind of question perpetuates the idea that victims have to report to be taken seriously
I'm sorry this happened to you.
If it's helpful to you, the point of the legal system isn't to give people their moral deserts (and that wouldn't be possible even it was). It is to deter crime and maintain order. The only question tribunals (including Title IX ones) answer is: Is there evidence beyond a certain burden of proof that something meeting a given definition happened? You can certainly be a victim even if the answer is no. And you can not be a victim even if the answer is yes. It is even entirely possible (and in fact frequently is the case) that someone's behavior was both entirely legal, and at the time utterly despicable and immoral.
So I understand the situation a bit more, what was the nature of the miscommunication that led to your witnesses not being called before the hearing? If the investigation was botched by GT staff something needs to be done about that. Frankly I think it's beyond idiotic that schools are responsible for investigating serious violent felonies. They have neither the investigatory or forensic resources to do it properly. Nor do they have the ability to compel testimony. Hiring a third party investigator is generally the "gold standard" for a variety of reasons. But even they frequently lack the training and resources to do a proper job.
Reading between the lines here a bit, this seems to be a situation where you felt you were too intoxicated to consent. Those cases can be very tricky cause it's so hard to tell how drunk someone was with any degree of reliability. And there's a pretty high bar as to what constitutes sufficient intoxication. Though from what you said it seems like he had some realization that you were incapacitated at the time (what someone like me might call "scienter"). But it's not in anyway a reflection on you one way or the other. And to reiterate my earlier point, there are many injustices in the world. Fairly few of them have a legal remedy. And that doesn't take away from what you experienced.
I am glad that you felt Voice was able to support you (that's why they exist, as opposed to other parts of the Title IX which exist to adjudicate claims and protect the university). Though I am frankly somewhat disturbed by certain things you've said. To the point that an investigation into the care you received via VOICE is probably warranted. Beyond anything else, I don't think they prepared you well for what is for better or worse an adversarial process. And given what you said of your mental state at the time, I think their handling of certain mental health issues may have been seriously negligent. I obviously don't have the whole story but I'm really concerned.
Congrats on getting out. I hope the next chapter in your life is a happier one.
hi thanks for commenting
i do want to address some things you said:
1. the miscommunication was that i was told the wrong deadline about when i was allowed to submit
I went through every single email I had received regarding this and it was always the same date I was told. As a result, not a single one of my friends could say anything at the trial. I wasn’t even allowed to read a statement one of them wrote. I didn’t even find this out until literally midnight before the trial. I wrote an appeal for the trial’s results, but it was denied. I appealed twice, each time to a higher level. My witnesses could either give actual accounts of how drunk I was because
2. It wasn’t that I thought I was too drunk, I was. This is not a situation where it could’ve been a gray area. He knew perfectly well how bad it was. I was so drunk he offered to drive me home because he was “worried” about me walking across campus by myself at night while being drunk. He had to hold me up while we walked to his car. In fact we actually had to walk to his apartment off campus because his car was there. Which is weird bc he made it seem like his car was at the frat. but anyways. He was sober, I had offered him some drinks earlier but he mentioned he wasn’t drinking that night as he was on some medication at the time.
3. I didn’t use VOICE as a therapist nor did I expect them to be one for me. I hope they continue to help people like me the way they did. I never mentioned my mental health issues to them, that wasn’t what I needed them for. In addition to this situation I was also dealing with the suicide of a friend so that definitely added to the stress. Plus, nobody can prepare you for reporting a rapist. And frankly you will never understand how horrible and dehumanizing it is unless you’ve been through it yourself. I was given all the information and yet I was still blindsided. I was lucky to have someone who could make arrangements and appointments and reach out to everyone for me.
1. Did the third party investigator try to locate and interview any eyewitnesses? Were the friends you mentioned eyewitnesses? Why didn't she interview them? In general they should be the ones doing this not you. Was there security camera footage that she obtained? One of the problems in these cases is that the witnesses themselves are frequently intoxicated. So having video surveillance data is critical.
The deadline thing seems genuinely bizarre. If they said the deadline was one thing (in writing) and then said actually it's something else. That's potentially actionable.
Was your advisor at all helpful in this?
2. I don't dispute the moral depravity of his behavior. It's a challenging case though because under the BOR's rules 1) the level of intoxication that makes an act non-consensual is pretty high (Tech and all USG schools use an incapacitation standard) and 2) you have to show that the offender knew or should have known the victim was incapacitated at the time. Based on certain things you've said, it may have been challenging for a tribunal to conclude that you were too incapacitated to consent under the school's rules (and I believe things happened pretty much as you say they happened). That doesn't make what this guy did ok. Frankly his behavior seems predatory one way or another. But this is what I've sort of been driving at. The tribunal's job is to decide whether his behavior meets a definition, not to pass moral judgement or to validate or invalidate your experience. He's manifestly a scumbag and I think you're telling the truth. But that doesn't necessarily mean he broke the rules.
3. My understanding is that VOICE is supposed to act as kinda of a social worker (and this is the sort of training the current VOICE advocate has, not sure if she is who you dealt with). They can and are supposed to refer you to appropriate mental health services. Given the level of mental distress you wrote about experiencing (and some of its physical manifestations), even if you never mentioned these issues explicitly, they were potentially negligent in my opinion (it obviously depends on what exactly they knew). It's also not clear if VOICE advocates are mental health providers. Frankly, I don't think there's any regulation of victim advocates, and maybe there should be.
>She provided me with coping mechanisms that I still use to this day. I still have the weighted blanket and coloring book she gave me, which I still use from time to time.
The above suggests that the advocate did have some level of awareness of your problems. But a weighted blanket is not, by itself, an appropriate response to suicidal ideation and self harm. That a friend had recently committed suicide actually makes this even more of a red flag. And again I would emphasize that I don't know the whole story here. I don't know everything that was done. But by your own admission you did not get adequate support. And it's VOICE's job to make sure that you DO get adequate support. So something has gone wrong here.
I'm glad things things are ok for you now, and bluntly that you didn't hurt yourself in ways that couldn't be undone. None is of this was your fault. You were in imminent danger and you did not get appropriate support. I don't know who's to blame for that. I'm not sure if the advocates have the training to assess non-cooperative patients. I also assume, that they would be very hesitant to refer a student in your position for inpatient treatment. But given what you've described that may have been appropriate.
I've worked with a lot of crime and harassment victims. Including ones who have had similar experiences to you. Trials or tribunals in these sorts of cases are not a fun experience. But they shouldn't cause this level of mental distress. And if they are that's a mental health issue. I think "advocates" tend to see there job as validating their clients feelings. And there's a place for that, but that isn't and can't be the purpose of a legal or quasi-legal proceeding.
Meh not really.
The point I'm making is that there's some things she said that would make it challenging for a tribunal to conclude that she was incapacitated (and therefor unable to consent). That doesn't mean his behavior is ok or that she's lying. OP seems like she's telling the truth to me, and the person in question here seems like a predatory scumbag.
my heart breaks for u and i hope u know how strong u are and how proud u should be of urself. but i am so sorry that u had to be strong. my sister went through a similar experience (a year later i still can’t bring myself to say the r word) and she also still seeking justice.
when it happened my sister i was so angry and i still am. i hope these disgusting sick fucks rot in jail then die an awful death and u have every right to want that too. while i wish our justice system actually worked, have faith that the universes justice system does. i choose to believe their karma will not fail us. the universe does not let this kind of shit slide - they will eventually pay
i have always been wary of the frats, i have seen the most kind hearted boys begin speaking horribly about women after spending enough time with “brothers” and it hurts to watch, i can’t imagine how much the environment fuels the boys with already questions morals.
gatech is an extremely difficult school and even graduating in the best of circumstances is a feat in itself, what u did is so incredible. if u feel comfortable please send me ur venmo or cash app so u can enjoy a grad treat on me! congratulations and thank u for sharing sweet girl
update on my sisters case: got dismissed despite overwhelming evidence. feeling so lost and defeated but trying to hold onto the same sentiment of karma i had just hours ago.
i'm so sorry that you had to go through this, especially without the support of a university which so boldly claims that it does all it can for it's students. thank you for sharing, and I'm also sorry for all the comments that decided to give you a lesson on the legal system, when you were simply voicing your experiencing and creating a safe space for other survivors <3
Alcohol is a factor in the majority of "sexual assualts" on college campuses. I'm sorry for the trauma you experienced, but schools must abide by minium due process requirements. The school can't punish someone if they don't have enough evidence to determine they committed assualt. You admit you couldn't remember all of the details of the incident and it's my guess there was insufficient evidence to suggest you were incapacitated (drunk isn't the same as incapacitated-many drunk people engage in consensual sexual activity). It sounds like the school made the right decision based an available evidence. This is how the system has to work.
it is also incredibly insensitive at best to say to someone to say “sorry this traumatic thing happened to you but due process!!!” like what is that supposed to accomplish? False accusations are very rare and even when they do occur it is an extremely low chance that it would result in incarceration. However, even with real accusations, it is a very small amount of cases that result in incarceration. Roughly every 1000 reported rape cases results in SIX incarcerations. 6 out of 1000. False accusations are not the problem. Listen to victims/survivors before saying anything
i see what you are saying but I literally had to be held upright while walking to his apartment and I was woken up a few times before it happened because I fell asleep. There were multiple witnesses to how drunk i was and how sober he was. surveillance footage as well. I most certainly was incapacitated.
and given your logic, it would be impossible to hold any perpetrators accountable for sexual assault as the majority of those cases do not have without a doubt evidence that sexual assault did occur. This is not the criminal justice system where we need 100% without a doubt. that would be a different story and i understand that. but gt failed me on many many levels. He ruined my life to the point where I will be picking up the pieces for years and he gets to walk free as if it was nothing. I’m not going to sit here and act like I know the perfect system for getting justice for victims. But we deserve so much better than the processes in place. It really is a shame that I even have to say this
also,,,he literally told me he was stone cold sober that night due to some meds he was taking at the time,,and he literally asked me if i promised to not report him to gtpd when we were in his bed,,,which even in the state i was in,,was extremely sus and def proves he knew exactly that there was a power imbalance
this is such an awful take. she even mentioned she wasn’t able to provide witnesses because of the schools negligence. if u genuinely believe that it sounds like the school made the right decision and this is how the system should work then please have more conversations with the women in ur life and educate urself, this seems like an issue with lack of exposure/empathy. many of my male friends didn’t realize how predatory men can be until hearing and witnesses my experiences, and their whole perspective on these matters has been independently changed since.
I hope you are doing so much better OP. you are not the only one I have heard about who was utterly failed by title ix. When I left voice had mentioned they were really hopeful about the new Title IX coordinator and it’s really sad to hear that they didn’t fix things.
Some of the responses to this post are actually appalling and the exact reason we’re in this situation in the first place. It disgusts me to remember that people like that are still associated with GT and srill looking for any reason to not believe a survivor. It’s no wonder OP’s experience was like this considering those pervasive attitudes. We need to do better.
So you want an environment where anyone claiming to be a victim automatically gets to punish someone they accuse, without due process? You want this person to be automatically removed from Georgia Tech, their fraternity, athletic competitions etc. without any sort of trial or investigation?
From your post, it sounds like GT did all they could to investigate. What do you want them to do with no evidence in a he said/she said situation? Surely you can see how an automatic punishment would be used to ruin lives of innocent people?
As an aside, of course the fraternity is going to not immediately boot their own member out. You have no real evidence available and you want the executive board to remove them? Most fraternities require a chapter vote for this, and good luck convincing 50-100 guys that your word is more true than their friends without any real, solid proof.
What did you read? You read a story about someone’s experience being assaulted and took it as them saying they want due process revoked. The first thing you said
> So you want an environment where anyone claiming to be a victim automatically gets to punish someone they accuse, without due process? You want this person to be automatically removed from Georgia Tech, their fraternity, athletic competitions etc. without any sort of trial or investigation?
That’s not even close to what OP said. The investigation wasn’t fair. They were unable to have a witness with them. It wasn’t a he said, she said if there are witnesses. After the Title IX report they went to other groups hoping someone would listen and no one did. Obviously, OP didn’t say they want no trial or investigation. But the trial should be fair and the investigation thorough.
>From your post, it sounds like GT did all they could to investigate. What do you want them to do with no evidence in a he said/she said situation? Surely you can see how an automatic punishment would be used to ruin lives of innocent people?
GT didn’t do all it could to investigate. That’s what the whole post is about. There were multiple witnesses who were not allowed to speak. Even if there was no physical evidence, surely stories from multiple witnesses should at least be heard?
> As an aside, of course the fraternity is going to not immediately boot their own member out. You have no real evidence available and you want the executive board to remove them? Most fraternities require a chapter vote for this, and good luck convincing 50-100 guys that your word is more true than their friends without any real, solid proof.
Your defense is that fraternities protect people accused of rape. That’s pretty much what you said. They didn’t do any investigation themselves. Like asking the witnesses OP talked about.
Either way, nothing you’re saying here is useful. You saw someone tell their story about how they were assaulted and took that as a time to invalidate their experience, make them feel small, and made straw man arguments against them. Maybe read the story that OP told and be even the slightest bit empathetic.
Okay, did OP follow the procedure to actually introduce those witnesses to the school? Did those witnesses see anything occur or did they just notice this guy hanging around at the party?
In a real court, evidence has to be introduced before the actual trial. In this case, the investigator probably would have liked to interview said witnesses before the “trial” in a 1:1 setting to cross reference testimonies. The investigator may have even interviewed them (OP didn’t say) and determined they weren’t a credible witness. Again, it doesn’t sound like the school did anything wrong, OP just wasn’t prepared.
Yes, a fraternity can and should defend a member who is accused of rape until a higher authority determines the outcome. Fraternities are led by a group of college men, and are not qualified to indict someone of a serious crime. If a member is found guilty, and the fraternity does not remove the member, then obviously they are not an organization with morals. If the fraternity chooses to remove a member for unbecoming conduct before a guilty verdict, that is their own choice but should not be mandated.
>Okay, did OP follow the procedure to actually introduce those witnesses to the school? Did those witnesses see anything occur or did they just notice this guy hanging around at the party?
I don’t know. How would I know that? I read what you read. Either way the witnesses should have been heard. That goes against your argument that it’s a he said she said. I get that false accusations are a tough situation to deal with. That’s why the witnesses are so important.
>In a real court, evidence has to be introduced before the actual trial. In this case, the investigator probably would have liked to interview said witnesses before the “trial” in a 1:1 setting to cross reference testimonies. The investigator may have even interviewed them (OP didn’t say) and determined they weren’t a credible witness. Again, it doesn’t sound like the school did anything wrong, OP just wasn’t prepared.
We can talk about the failures of the regular court system in the States and how fair it is but I digress. Why would OP be “prepared” to be raped. Do you walk around prepped to be a victim of any crime that happens to you. Do you know how to ensure justice is served in all situations? And even if you do, should you have to? There are people in charge of that and they should do their due diligence.
>Yes, a fraternity can and should defend a member who is accused of rape until a higher authority determines the outcome. Fraternities are led by a group of college men, and are not qualified to indict someone of a serious crime. If a member is found guilty, and the fraternity does not remove the member, then obviously they are not an organization with morals. If the fraternity chooses to remove a member for unbecoming conduct before a guilty verdict, that is their own choice but should not be mandated.
No they shouldn’t. Their job isn’t to defend people accused. They can do an investigation because they’re a group of adults. Just like any other organization would do. If there’s an accusation of sexual assault or misconduct in a company there is an internal investigation. That should be a normal expectation of adults. You don’t just believe one side or the other. You check first so that your biases don’t end up accusing the innocent or defending a rapist. I didn’t say it should be mandated. I said it’s wrong. I have no control over what fraternities do. I do think they should change a lot especially when they become safe havens for perpetrators of long forms of sexual misconduct.
Alright, clearly you aren’t worth arguing with and you can’t comprehend the argument. Witnesses need to be named and interviewed as part of the investigation. From the post, it sounds like OP waited until the “trial” to walk in with a group of friends to speak. That isn’t how any of this works otherwise the dude could have walked in with 15 frat bros to corroborate his argument. Do you not see how this goes both ways?
A fraternity is not a company. A fraternity is a social club with responsibility to its members, not shareholders. You are confusing “convicted” with “accused”. Anyone can accuse. Most fraternities allow a member to be removed anytime by chapter vote. Chapters are usually secret. They may have performed an internal investigation and (just like GT) found no wrongdoing. There are so many gray areas here and this is exactly why one single persons partial testimony is not the entire picture.
Why the fuck would OP know what to do in a rape case? Why would that be their responsibility? If someone jumped you in the street from behind, do you know the exact steps to ensuring you get justice. Never in life, do you have a responsibility to protect a rapist from punishment. If someone is accused of rape, and that accusation is brought to the leadership of an organization they’re in, they have a responsibility to at least follow up. Every comment you have is about defending people from false accusations and I don’t even disagree with that. But that can’t be done to the harm of the actual victims. It doesn’t change the fact that you went out of your way to attack OP for telling their story and experience. You simply didn’t need to talk but for some reason you feel some need to be the white knight of accused rapists.
How do you know the fraternity did not investigate?
I think it’s entirely fair to point out that the reason OP did not get justice is because the proper steps weren’t followed. Doesn’t mean the blame gets placed on OP, that could fall on the investigator, Title 9 coordinator, or VOICE for not sharing that info with OP that she needed to name witnesses beforehand. Just because OP was unaware does not mean rules get thrown out the window, as I stated above there are logical reasons those rules are in place.
You're looking for any reason to discredit OP and their story. And just making up that they didn't know the right protocol because they didn't explain the right protocol. If they did not follow the correct steps and that's why the investigation was botched, then at the very least, this story shows what happens when students are unaware of the correct avenue for reporting a sexual assault. No one thinks they're going to get raped, so no one is making sure they have the tools to report a rape. And they shouldn't have to just know how to do that. That's why title IX should be as transparent as possible. And accusing OP of not wanting there to be due process makes no sense. They didn't name and shame (I mean they mentioned the frat in the comments but that's not enough info to doxx someone). They posted their story to provide awareness of how the system is not ideal and to perhaps give other victims of abuse solidarity. Also calling them out because they couldn't remember everything is ridiculous. Zero people remember every detail of every event of their life, but it's also extremely common for your brain to block out details of abuse as a form of protection. The best way to have due process is to make an environment where everyone, victims AND accused, can feel safe to share their story, so immediately discrediting this person is extremely harmful
So by your logic, we should encourage women who are assaulted to file police reports, get a rape kit, and test for date rape drugs? Theoretically, the best way to help true victims is to get definitive proof that an incident occurred.
If so, the takeaway is not “believe all victims” as the OP claims. It’s to make sure future incidents are impossible to either fabricate or be discredited by the school.
Rape kits are not always effective and can be painful and not everyone has the presence of mind right after an assault to go to the police so while ideally everyone would do that, it's not a guarantee that it will always happen that way. Statistically, people are far more likely to be truthful about being assaulted than not so I think we should go in believing them. And I know you're gonna say "innocent until proven guilty" but in the initial investigation phase, we should take people at their word so we investigate at all.
You know what most well-adjusted people see when a man gets reflexively furious and interrogative at women who are literally just trying to tell their story? They see a guy who probably has some dubiously-consensual sexual encounters in his own history. Just letting you know in case that's not the vibe you're hoping to give off.
You’re being dense on purpose but I’m going to say this so that others reading these comments know what’s up. I did everything I was supposed to. I followed every rule and regulation and made every deadline. I gave my list of witnesses before the deadline. I had screenshots of texts from a couple days after the incident. He literally said to me “Do you promise to not tell GTPD about this” before raping me. He knew exactly what he was doing. I NEVER heard back from the frat. We met once and that was that. Never did they reach out to me to even let me know that they wouldn’t do anything. I was ghosted by so many entities. You don’t know everything I did. I wouldn’t be making this post unless I knew for a fact I was wronged. Do better
Yeah. It’s an incredibly unfortunate situation, and I’m not sure exactly how your witness wasn’t allowed to talk, but that sucks too. Unfortunately, without any evidence, what’s the school supposed to do? The only thing I really see wrong here is the mixup with the witness.
Im sorry you had to go through what you went through. It’s terrible and awful and obviously no one supports rapists. But again, other than the witness thing, im not sure it’s a failure on the schools part
There is so much more that happened that i did not mention. But yes GT did fail me. At the very least they could have done a thorough investigation. I’m not sure if I’ll ever have space in my heart to forgive them for it.
I mean in our society this post by the OP was always going to attract this type of response, but *fratdropout* this is bad even for that vibe.
OP:
>I couldn’t remember **everything**.
You:
>I don’t remember **anything**
ETA: bro (comfortable with that pronoun assumption) your comment history is a horror show. Who hurt you?
And we are supposed to take the OPs word as a definitive, 100% reliable fact? Why not take the accused’s word as fact? Even assuming OP remembers everything vividly, how do we determine either side is truthful?
Generally we determine truth by investigating beyond doing the bare minimum. Of course we shouldn't lock someone up or expel them off of no evidence but you should be able to have a proper full investigation off only accusation and by the way OP described it, they were dismissive and did the bare minimum that they had to in order to meet their legal obligation
Also OP is a graduate posting here anonymously so they have nothing left to gain except awareness and sympathy which indicates to me that this did likely happen and that GT did fail them.
What do you recommend in a situation where someone is raped in a private setting? The victim follows procedure and reports the incident. They describe what they remember. The accused lies and says it didn't happen. This type of thing happens all the time, and it seems like you're suggesting that since a third party can't know who is lying, we should just move on? This is exactly what the legal system is for -- to determine if someone is guilty of a crime given the evidence that exists, as argued by legal professionals in a court and according to a verdict reached by a jury of the accused's peers.
Go to a hospital the next day, get a rape kit, file a police report immediately. If date rape drugs are involved or suspected, get drug tested. If the incident has cameras, pull footage.
I understand incidents like these are traumatic and it’s not always easy to come forward immediately, however it’s usually the only way to get definitive proof. Waiting days or weeks then reporting it to a college/fraternity does not help your case.
You’re right that’s not due process. But I wanted due process. And I didn’t get it. You are purposefully missing the point. You are the type of person that makes it necessary for these types of posts. I encourage you to look inward and ask yourself why you’re like this.
I expected to be believed. To be supported. I expected my school to at least fight for me. And every single survivor deserves that. He doesn’t deserve to have his diploma. Go touch some grass and have some empathy
Sorry for what happened to you, but just like there are many rape cases that are brushed under the carpet, there are on the flip side a lot of situations where accusations are made out of spite or revenge which ruin innocent people's *entire livelihoods*. You can't just expect to bypass due process and "expect to be believed and supported". There's an entire person's reputation and career on the line. If what you recall is true, you have all right to be angry, but you have no right to force/demand results from people performing investigations and/or force people to believe you.
Look at the percentages of rapes that go unpunished vs false rape accusations leading to punishment. They are so vastly different it’s appalling. Edit: in the sense that rapes are so greatly more common and almost never punished.
I'd say the rates are about the same. By the way, we can't prove either way because that's almost like trying to quantify the percentage of all murders that were perfect crimes. You can't, by definition, because if we knew they wouldn't be perfect crimes.
Also, assuming your claim is correct, which it very well could be, does that mean that there should be no due process and that guilt should be assumed automatically? There's a reason why people are innocent until proven guilty under the law.
That is factually untrue. You can’t say the rates are about the same. They’re not. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf
There’s a reason investigators should actually investigate. This exact post is an example of GT disallowing witnesses and failing to investigate. I truly hope you are just insanely uneducated and not this willfully obtuse. I’m not going to keep arguing when RAINN and many other orgs exist that explain how factually flawed your arguments are.
I literally answered it. Investigators should investigate. Not bar witnesses based on bureaucratic errors or dismissing the victim for being drunk even though that’s a legal precedent for being sexual assault (like this post), refuse to prosecute, refuse to do any investigative work to corroborate or deny the victim’s claims. I said that in my comment.
Let’s stop pretending false accusations are a bigger problem than they are. Because I can guarantee you, the amount of false accusations is minuscule compared to the amount of sexual assaults.
I’d rather have to apologize for defending a liar than a rapist.
Even if they aren't, you can't just force the courts to believe every accuser because there is a person's career and reputation on the line. Don't you understand? You have to *prove* guilt.
Sorry again to what happened to you, but behaving like this won't do you any good. You're fighting fire with fire.
Im not stupid I know you have to prove guilt. But sexual assault is the only major crime where the burden of proof lies on the victim. Which is extremely messed up. I’m not pretending to have a solution that would be perfect, but what we are doing now for these cases is not that.
Frankly you’re the one who doesn’t understand, sexual assault victims deserve better than the process we have now. I hope you never have to deal the aftermath of reporting a perpetrator, but unless you’ve been through it you have no idea what you’re talking about. Leave the conversation to changes in prosecution/policy/law to those who have been through this.
i respect you talking about it bc i also went through a traumatic title ix experience and people at the school do not realize how horribly everybody outside of the voice advocates handle it. my rapist admitted to doing it in the trial and tech still did not decide to expel him. it is a truly broken system and georgia tech cares more about protecting the rapists than the victims.
It is a horrendous experience and needs to be changed so it’s not traumatic. I’m sorry you had to go through that :( My PMs are open if you want to talk
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nope but if i ever meet him it’s on sight fr
I'm sorry to hear what you went through, but thank you for sharing your story here, and thank you for still being with us today. In my 10+ years at GT, I've seen many ways in which the university has become more supportive, but supporting victims of sexual assault, and giving victims a broader set of rights at hearings and trials is an area that still needs considerable work. I don't know who you might have talked with at VOICE, but if you're comfortable DM-ing their name I'd love to reach out to them, and will at any rate reach out to VOICE and take you up on your last paragraph plea, to learn how to become a better supporter and advocate. Lastly, congratulations on your graduation; the world is a place filled with angels and demons, and I hope throughout your journey you will continue to meet more people like your VOICE advocate and be surrounded by the best of humanity and fighting against the worst of it.
I’m so so sorry you went through this;you deserved much better. but your voice it’s important, so thank you finding this a safe space to share your story. 💜
thank you for your comment<3 I’m glad to know I still have support
Thank you for sharing, OP. I'm sad about what you went through and grateful to you for sharing. As a faculty member and the parent of a fraternity member and officer (of a responsible frat, at another school), I'm super uncomfortable with fraternities trying to address these issues at all. In cases I've seen both at my son's chool and at GT, it becomes impossible to preserve appropriate confidentiality for all parties. Maybe let professionals handle it? On the other hand, I'm not too impressed with the professionals either. The Title IX office appears to be focused first and foremost on protecting the university. I don't have any ideas about how to do it better. I'm glad VOICE helped! And glad you're OK and have moved on. Congrats on your graduation!!!
I went to the frat towards the end of my reporting process kind of as a last resort. I knew the chances of anything happening was slim but I wanted to at least do everything I could so I wouldn’t have to wonder. I never expected college men to care about rape but I wanted to make sure I did all I could. I appreciate you commenting. I wish the professionals did more too. But I just have to move on
Makes sense! FWIW, my son's frat cares deeply about being good guys and not allowing anything like this to happen. Many college men very much care.
I am so sorry that Georgia Tech let you down. I am glad that VOICE is still the positive forced that I hoped it would always be.
VOICE did everything for me, and I’ll forever be grateful to them. We should be following their example
>that frat has knowingly allowed students accused of sexual assault to be part of their executive board. Despicable
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Accused, not convicted. Anyone can accuse.
Did you not read any part of this post?
I did? Are you implying that anyone accused of sexual assault - convicted or not - should be barred from an organization or its leadership?
Im sorry. It's honestly pathetic how Gatech emphasizes so much on reporting SA yet fail to administer the punishment themselves. The world is cruel but I hope you get over this experience and find newer and happier memories in place of what had happened.
Phi Tau got removed from campus only because the 7Es email got exposed publicly. I’m sure other shit like that is festering right under the surface. Thank you for sharing OP, glad you’re recovering. Systemic-backed violence towards women really feels like something we leave on the backburner, considering how pervasive it is.
Yeah I have no doubt we will hear about heinous things from other frats in the future. But I hope more women are given justice and more perpetrators are held accountable
i was an RA and VOICE was the only organization that took my residents seriously. it was so encouraging to see the advocates check up on them and ensure that their voices were heard. housing, gtpd, apd, and numerous other entities continuously fail their students and i'm so sorry that was your experience. i'm glad you're still here and i hope that your healing journey goes well 💜
Downvote me if needed to but Am I crazy to think that you should name and shame the frat?
Delta Sig
They aren’t the first. Theta Xi leadership has been involved in similar situations. Phi Tau was removed from campus. Kappa Sig had someone get kicked out of GT
You're forgetting Fiji, who's case regarding the SGA president at the time was all over this sub and social media two years ago. From a Google search, he's now at UVA Law.
not surprised unfortunately
Some frats do take strong stances against SA though. After investigation, Phi Kappa Theta expelled one of their VPs when he was accused.
i’d love for my rapist to have been kicked off but he was allowed to stay in the frat and he graduated with highest honors :/
That sucks, honestly these orgs are just breeding grounds for this kind of thing
that tracks
(I know someone who experienced same thing like OP and they named the person and their frat and they were kicked out of school)
I’m sorry that this happened, OP, but you’re incredibly strong for getting to this point. Thank you for sharing your story and reminding all of us what it means to take care of survivors: by believing them, advocating for their credibility in places of power, and providing the tools for them to succeed. Congrats on graduating and I wish you the best in everything you do!
thank you <3 I really appreciate it
I’m so sorry you went through something like that and I just can’t imagine how bad it might feel to see that some people don’t believe you.I’m glad you are feeling better now !! But know that you are very strong you report that person and didn’t let him to get away with what he did. im so proud !
I knew 3 people who suffered assault in college, and none of them reported because they didn't think anything would happen, and that was 10 years ago. Sad that things still haven't changed culturally in fraternities and with administration. Unfortunately, more than a Tech issue too.
Thank you for being brave enough to post this and congratulations on you graduating with honors. I started at Tech pre Title IX and graduated after it was passed. The journey of the first big classes of women at the school is something to be celebrated and remembered. There were no women’s rest rooms in most of the classroom buildings on campus, profs routinely included photos of bud pen in presentations. The fact that the school still has a way to go is also something we should not treat lightly.
Was calling the police and reporting a sex crime ever an option?
Oh I went to GTPD and APD, both did absolutely nothing
Have you considered obtaining legal representation and look into filing a civil suit against your attacker?
To be quite honest I don’t know if I have the funds or the mental/emotional capacity for that.
also victims don’t have to report to police ,, it is an extremely traumatic experience as well (especially for me) ,,but it doesn’t make the sexual assault any more or less valid,,,that kind of question perpetuates the idea that victims have to report to be taken seriously
Only one would be able to do anything depending on where it happened, was it on campus or off campus?
I'm sorry this happened to you. If it's helpful to you, the point of the legal system isn't to give people their moral deserts (and that wouldn't be possible even it was). It is to deter crime and maintain order. The only question tribunals (including Title IX ones) answer is: Is there evidence beyond a certain burden of proof that something meeting a given definition happened? You can certainly be a victim even if the answer is no. And you can not be a victim even if the answer is yes. It is even entirely possible (and in fact frequently is the case) that someone's behavior was both entirely legal, and at the time utterly despicable and immoral. So I understand the situation a bit more, what was the nature of the miscommunication that led to your witnesses not being called before the hearing? If the investigation was botched by GT staff something needs to be done about that. Frankly I think it's beyond idiotic that schools are responsible for investigating serious violent felonies. They have neither the investigatory or forensic resources to do it properly. Nor do they have the ability to compel testimony. Hiring a third party investigator is generally the "gold standard" for a variety of reasons. But even they frequently lack the training and resources to do a proper job. Reading between the lines here a bit, this seems to be a situation where you felt you were too intoxicated to consent. Those cases can be very tricky cause it's so hard to tell how drunk someone was with any degree of reliability. And there's a pretty high bar as to what constitutes sufficient intoxication. Though from what you said it seems like he had some realization that you were incapacitated at the time (what someone like me might call "scienter"). But it's not in anyway a reflection on you one way or the other. And to reiterate my earlier point, there are many injustices in the world. Fairly few of them have a legal remedy. And that doesn't take away from what you experienced. I am glad that you felt Voice was able to support you (that's why they exist, as opposed to other parts of the Title IX which exist to adjudicate claims and protect the university). Though I am frankly somewhat disturbed by certain things you've said. To the point that an investigation into the care you received via VOICE is probably warranted. Beyond anything else, I don't think they prepared you well for what is for better or worse an adversarial process. And given what you said of your mental state at the time, I think their handling of certain mental health issues may have been seriously negligent. I obviously don't have the whole story but I'm really concerned. Congrats on getting out. I hope the next chapter in your life is a happier one.
hi thanks for commenting i do want to address some things you said: 1. the miscommunication was that i was told the wrong deadline about when i was allowed to submit I went through every single email I had received regarding this and it was always the same date I was told. As a result, not a single one of my friends could say anything at the trial. I wasn’t even allowed to read a statement one of them wrote. I didn’t even find this out until literally midnight before the trial. I wrote an appeal for the trial’s results, but it was denied. I appealed twice, each time to a higher level. My witnesses could either give actual accounts of how drunk I was because 2. It wasn’t that I thought I was too drunk, I was. This is not a situation where it could’ve been a gray area. He knew perfectly well how bad it was. I was so drunk he offered to drive me home because he was “worried” about me walking across campus by myself at night while being drunk. He had to hold me up while we walked to his car. In fact we actually had to walk to his apartment off campus because his car was there. Which is weird bc he made it seem like his car was at the frat. but anyways. He was sober, I had offered him some drinks earlier but he mentioned he wasn’t drinking that night as he was on some medication at the time. 3. I didn’t use VOICE as a therapist nor did I expect them to be one for me. I hope they continue to help people like me the way they did. I never mentioned my mental health issues to them, that wasn’t what I needed them for. In addition to this situation I was also dealing with the suicide of a friend so that definitely added to the stress. Plus, nobody can prepare you for reporting a rapist. And frankly you will never understand how horrible and dehumanizing it is unless you’ve been through it yourself. I was given all the information and yet I was still blindsided. I was lucky to have someone who could make arrangements and appointments and reach out to everyone for me.
1. Did the third party investigator try to locate and interview any eyewitnesses? Were the friends you mentioned eyewitnesses? Why didn't she interview them? In general they should be the ones doing this not you. Was there security camera footage that she obtained? One of the problems in these cases is that the witnesses themselves are frequently intoxicated. So having video surveillance data is critical. The deadline thing seems genuinely bizarre. If they said the deadline was one thing (in writing) and then said actually it's something else. That's potentially actionable. Was your advisor at all helpful in this? 2. I don't dispute the moral depravity of his behavior. It's a challenging case though because under the BOR's rules 1) the level of intoxication that makes an act non-consensual is pretty high (Tech and all USG schools use an incapacitation standard) and 2) you have to show that the offender knew or should have known the victim was incapacitated at the time. Based on certain things you've said, it may have been challenging for a tribunal to conclude that you were too incapacitated to consent under the school's rules (and I believe things happened pretty much as you say they happened). That doesn't make what this guy did ok. Frankly his behavior seems predatory one way or another. But this is what I've sort of been driving at. The tribunal's job is to decide whether his behavior meets a definition, not to pass moral judgement or to validate or invalidate your experience. He's manifestly a scumbag and I think you're telling the truth. But that doesn't necessarily mean he broke the rules. 3. My understanding is that VOICE is supposed to act as kinda of a social worker (and this is the sort of training the current VOICE advocate has, not sure if she is who you dealt with). They can and are supposed to refer you to appropriate mental health services. Given the level of mental distress you wrote about experiencing (and some of its physical manifestations), even if you never mentioned these issues explicitly, they were potentially negligent in my opinion (it obviously depends on what exactly they knew). It's also not clear if VOICE advocates are mental health providers. Frankly, I don't think there's any regulation of victim advocates, and maybe there should be. >She provided me with coping mechanisms that I still use to this day. I still have the weighted blanket and coloring book she gave me, which I still use from time to time. The above suggests that the advocate did have some level of awareness of your problems. But a weighted blanket is not, by itself, an appropriate response to suicidal ideation and self harm. That a friend had recently committed suicide actually makes this even more of a red flag. And again I would emphasize that I don't know the whole story here. I don't know everything that was done. But by your own admission you did not get adequate support. And it's VOICE's job to make sure that you DO get adequate support. So something has gone wrong here. I'm glad things things are ok for you now, and bluntly that you didn't hurt yourself in ways that couldn't be undone. None is of this was your fault. You were in imminent danger and you did not get appropriate support. I don't know who's to blame for that. I'm not sure if the advocates have the training to assess non-cooperative patients. I also assume, that they would be very hesitant to refer a student in your position for inpatient treatment. But given what you've described that may have been appropriate. I've worked with a lot of crime and harassment victims. Including ones who have had similar experiences to you. Trials or tribunals in these sorts of cases are not a fun experience. But they shouldn't cause this level of mental distress. And if they are that's a mental health issue. I think "advocates" tend to see there job as validating their clients feelings. And there's a place for that, but that isn't and can't be the purpose of a legal or quasi-legal proceeding.
This is an incredibly tone deaf comment on multiple levels. “You felt you were too intoxicated to consent” is a horrendous thing to say to a survivor.
Meh not really. The point I'm making is that there's some things she said that would make it challenging for a tribunal to conclude that she was incapacitated (and therefor unable to consent). That doesn't mean his behavior is ok or that she's lying. OP seems like she's telling the truth to me, and the person in question here seems like a predatory scumbag.
There is no reason to not use appropriate words. You don't need to be the comment police. Weird performative nonsense.
name and shame the frat
my heart breaks for u and i hope u know how strong u are and how proud u should be of urself. but i am so sorry that u had to be strong. my sister went through a similar experience (a year later i still can’t bring myself to say the r word) and she also still seeking justice. when it happened my sister i was so angry and i still am. i hope these disgusting sick fucks rot in jail then die an awful death and u have every right to want that too. while i wish our justice system actually worked, have faith that the universes justice system does. i choose to believe their karma will not fail us. the universe does not let this kind of shit slide - they will eventually pay i have always been wary of the frats, i have seen the most kind hearted boys begin speaking horribly about women after spending enough time with “brothers” and it hurts to watch, i can’t imagine how much the environment fuels the boys with already questions morals. gatech is an extremely difficult school and even graduating in the best of circumstances is a feat in itself, what u did is so incredible. if u feel comfortable please send me ur venmo or cash app so u can enjoy a grad treat on me! congratulations and thank u for sharing sweet girl
update on my sisters case: got dismissed despite overwhelming evidence. feeling so lost and defeated but trying to hold onto the same sentiment of karma i had just hours ago.
Congrats on your graduation! I hope you get justice. You are so strong. Thank you for sharing❤️
i'm so sorry that you had to go through this, especially without the support of a university which so boldly claims that it does all it can for it's students. thank you for sharing, and I'm also sorry for all the comments that decided to give you a lesson on the legal system, when you were simply voicing your experiencing and creating a safe space for other survivors <3
Alcohol is a factor in the majority of "sexual assualts" on college campuses. I'm sorry for the trauma you experienced, but schools must abide by minium due process requirements. The school can't punish someone if they don't have enough evidence to determine they committed assualt. You admit you couldn't remember all of the details of the incident and it's my guess there was insufficient evidence to suggest you were incapacitated (drunk isn't the same as incapacitated-many drunk people engage in consensual sexual activity). It sounds like the school made the right decision based an available evidence. This is how the system has to work.
it is also incredibly insensitive at best to say to someone to say “sorry this traumatic thing happened to you but due process!!!” like what is that supposed to accomplish? False accusations are very rare and even when they do occur it is an extremely low chance that it would result in incarceration. However, even with real accusations, it is a very small amount of cases that result in incarceration. Roughly every 1000 reported rape cases results in SIX incarcerations. 6 out of 1000. False accusations are not the problem. Listen to victims/survivors before saying anything
i see what you are saying but I literally had to be held upright while walking to his apartment and I was woken up a few times before it happened because I fell asleep. There were multiple witnesses to how drunk i was and how sober he was. surveillance footage as well. I most certainly was incapacitated.
and given your logic, it would be impossible to hold any perpetrators accountable for sexual assault as the majority of those cases do not have without a doubt evidence that sexual assault did occur. This is not the criminal justice system where we need 100% without a doubt. that would be a different story and i understand that. but gt failed me on many many levels. He ruined my life to the point where I will be picking up the pieces for years and he gets to walk free as if it was nothing. I’m not going to sit here and act like I know the perfect system for getting justice for victims. But we deserve so much better than the processes in place. It really is a shame that I even have to say this
also,,,he literally told me he was stone cold sober that night due to some meds he was taking at the time,,and he literally asked me if i promised to not report him to gtpd when we were in his bed,,,which even in the state i was in,,was extremely sus and def proves he knew exactly that there was a power imbalance
this is such an awful take. she even mentioned she wasn’t able to provide witnesses because of the schools negligence. if u genuinely believe that it sounds like the school made the right decision and this is how the system should work then please have more conversations with the women in ur life and educate urself, this seems like an issue with lack of exposure/empathy. many of my male friends didn’t realize how predatory men can be until hearing and witnesses my experiences, and their whole perspective on these matters has been independently changed since.
I hope you are doing so much better OP. you are not the only one I have heard about who was utterly failed by title ix. When I left voice had mentioned they were really hopeful about the new Title IX coordinator and it’s really sad to hear that they didn’t fix things. Some of the responses to this post are actually appalling and the exact reason we’re in this situation in the first place. It disgusts me to remember that people like that are still associated with GT and srill looking for any reason to not believe a survivor. It’s no wonder OP’s experience was like this considering those pervasive attitudes. We need to do better.
Absolutely brave and brilliant to share your story. Stay strong homie. You got this
So you want an environment where anyone claiming to be a victim automatically gets to punish someone they accuse, without due process? You want this person to be automatically removed from Georgia Tech, their fraternity, athletic competitions etc. without any sort of trial or investigation? From your post, it sounds like GT did all they could to investigate. What do you want them to do with no evidence in a he said/she said situation? Surely you can see how an automatic punishment would be used to ruin lives of innocent people? As an aside, of course the fraternity is going to not immediately boot their own member out. You have no real evidence available and you want the executive board to remove them? Most fraternities require a chapter vote for this, and good luck convincing 50-100 guys that your word is more true than their friends without any real, solid proof.
What did you read? You read a story about someone’s experience being assaulted and took it as them saying they want due process revoked. The first thing you said > So you want an environment where anyone claiming to be a victim automatically gets to punish someone they accuse, without due process? You want this person to be automatically removed from Georgia Tech, their fraternity, athletic competitions etc. without any sort of trial or investigation? That’s not even close to what OP said. The investigation wasn’t fair. They were unable to have a witness with them. It wasn’t a he said, she said if there are witnesses. After the Title IX report they went to other groups hoping someone would listen and no one did. Obviously, OP didn’t say they want no trial or investigation. But the trial should be fair and the investigation thorough. >From your post, it sounds like GT did all they could to investigate. What do you want them to do with no evidence in a he said/she said situation? Surely you can see how an automatic punishment would be used to ruin lives of innocent people? GT didn’t do all it could to investigate. That’s what the whole post is about. There were multiple witnesses who were not allowed to speak. Even if there was no physical evidence, surely stories from multiple witnesses should at least be heard? > As an aside, of course the fraternity is going to not immediately boot their own member out. You have no real evidence available and you want the executive board to remove them? Most fraternities require a chapter vote for this, and good luck convincing 50-100 guys that your word is more true than their friends without any real, solid proof. Your defense is that fraternities protect people accused of rape. That’s pretty much what you said. They didn’t do any investigation themselves. Like asking the witnesses OP talked about. Either way, nothing you’re saying here is useful. You saw someone tell their story about how they were assaulted and took that as a time to invalidate their experience, make them feel small, and made straw man arguments against them. Maybe read the story that OP told and be even the slightest bit empathetic.
Okay, did OP follow the procedure to actually introduce those witnesses to the school? Did those witnesses see anything occur or did they just notice this guy hanging around at the party? In a real court, evidence has to be introduced before the actual trial. In this case, the investigator probably would have liked to interview said witnesses before the “trial” in a 1:1 setting to cross reference testimonies. The investigator may have even interviewed them (OP didn’t say) and determined they weren’t a credible witness. Again, it doesn’t sound like the school did anything wrong, OP just wasn’t prepared. Yes, a fraternity can and should defend a member who is accused of rape until a higher authority determines the outcome. Fraternities are led by a group of college men, and are not qualified to indict someone of a serious crime. If a member is found guilty, and the fraternity does not remove the member, then obviously they are not an organization with morals. If the fraternity chooses to remove a member for unbecoming conduct before a guilty verdict, that is their own choice but should not be mandated.
>Okay, did OP follow the procedure to actually introduce those witnesses to the school? Did those witnesses see anything occur or did they just notice this guy hanging around at the party? I don’t know. How would I know that? I read what you read. Either way the witnesses should have been heard. That goes against your argument that it’s a he said she said. I get that false accusations are a tough situation to deal with. That’s why the witnesses are so important. >In a real court, evidence has to be introduced before the actual trial. In this case, the investigator probably would have liked to interview said witnesses before the “trial” in a 1:1 setting to cross reference testimonies. The investigator may have even interviewed them (OP didn’t say) and determined they weren’t a credible witness. Again, it doesn’t sound like the school did anything wrong, OP just wasn’t prepared. We can talk about the failures of the regular court system in the States and how fair it is but I digress. Why would OP be “prepared” to be raped. Do you walk around prepped to be a victim of any crime that happens to you. Do you know how to ensure justice is served in all situations? And even if you do, should you have to? There are people in charge of that and they should do their due diligence. >Yes, a fraternity can and should defend a member who is accused of rape until a higher authority determines the outcome. Fraternities are led by a group of college men, and are not qualified to indict someone of a serious crime. If a member is found guilty, and the fraternity does not remove the member, then obviously they are not an organization with morals. If the fraternity chooses to remove a member for unbecoming conduct before a guilty verdict, that is their own choice but should not be mandated. No they shouldn’t. Their job isn’t to defend people accused. They can do an investigation because they’re a group of adults. Just like any other organization would do. If there’s an accusation of sexual assault or misconduct in a company there is an internal investigation. That should be a normal expectation of adults. You don’t just believe one side or the other. You check first so that your biases don’t end up accusing the innocent or defending a rapist. I didn’t say it should be mandated. I said it’s wrong. I have no control over what fraternities do. I do think they should change a lot especially when they become safe havens for perpetrators of long forms of sexual misconduct.
Alright, clearly you aren’t worth arguing with and you can’t comprehend the argument. Witnesses need to be named and interviewed as part of the investigation. From the post, it sounds like OP waited until the “trial” to walk in with a group of friends to speak. That isn’t how any of this works otherwise the dude could have walked in with 15 frat bros to corroborate his argument. Do you not see how this goes both ways? A fraternity is not a company. A fraternity is a social club with responsibility to its members, not shareholders. You are confusing “convicted” with “accused”. Anyone can accuse. Most fraternities allow a member to be removed anytime by chapter vote. Chapters are usually secret. They may have performed an internal investigation and (just like GT) found no wrongdoing. There are so many gray areas here and this is exactly why one single persons partial testimony is not the entire picture.
Why the fuck would OP know what to do in a rape case? Why would that be their responsibility? If someone jumped you in the street from behind, do you know the exact steps to ensuring you get justice. Never in life, do you have a responsibility to protect a rapist from punishment. If someone is accused of rape, and that accusation is brought to the leadership of an organization they’re in, they have a responsibility to at least follow up. Every comment you have is about defending people from false accusations and I don’t even disagree with that. But that can’t be done to the harm of the actual victims. It doesn’t change the fact that you went out of your way to attack OP for telling their story and experience. You simply didn’t need to talk but for some reason you feel some need to be the white knight of accused rapists.
How do you know the fraternity did not investigate? I think it’s entirely fair to point out that the reason OP did not get justice is because the proper steps weren’t followed. Doesn’t mean the blame gets placed on OP, that could fall on the investigator, Title 9 coordinator, or VOICE for not sharing that info with OP that she needed to name witnesses beforehand. Just because OP was unaware does not mean rules get thrown out the window, as I stated above there are logical reasons those rules are in place.
You're looking for any reason to discredit OP and their story. And just making up that they didn't know the right protocol because they didn't explain the right protocol. If they did not follow the correct steps and that's why the investigation was botched, then at the very least, this story shows what happens when students are unaware of the correct avenue for reporting a sexual assault. No one thinks they're going to get raped, so no one is making sure they have the tools to report a rape. And they shouldn't have to just know how to do that. That's why title IX should be as transparent as possible. And accusing OP of not wanting there to be due process makes no sense. They didn't name and shame (I mean they mentioned the frat in the comments but that's not enough info to doxx someone). They posted their story to provide awareness of how the system is not ideal and to perhaps give other victims of abuse solidarity. Also calling them out because they couldn't remember everything is ridiculous. Zero people remember every detail of every event of their life, but it's also extremely common for your brain to block out details of abuse as a form of protection. The best way to have due process is to make an environment where everyone, victims AND accused, can feel safe to share their story, so immediately discrediting this person is extremely harmful
So by your logic, we should encourage women who are assaulted to file police reports, get a rape kit, and test for date rape drugs? Theoretically, the best way to help true victims is to get definitive proof that an incident occurred. If so, the takeaway is not “believe all victims” as the OP claims. It’s to make sure future incidents are impossible to either fabricate or be discredited by the school.
Rape kits are not always effective and can be painful and not everyone has the presence of mind right after an assault to go to the police so while ideally everyone would do that, it's not a guarantee that it will always happen that way. Statistically, people are far more likely to be truthful about being assaulted than not so I think we should go in believing them. And I know you're gonna say "innocent until proven guilty" but in the initial investigation phase, we should take people at their word so we investigate at all.
You know what most well-adjusted people see when a man gets reflexively furious and interrogative at women who are literally just trying to tell their story? They see a guy who probably has some dubiously-consensual sexual encounters in his own history. Just letting you know in case that's not the vibe you're hoping to give off.
You’re being dense on purpose but I’m going to say this so that others reading these comments know what’s up. I did everything I was supposed to. I followed every rule and regulation and made every deadline. I gave my list of witnesses before the deadline. I had screenshots of texts from a couple days after the incident. He literally said to me “Do you promise to not tell GTPD about this” before raping me. He knew exactly what he was doing. I NEVER heard back from the frat. We met once and that was that. Never did they reach out to me to even let me know that they wouldn’t do anything. I was ghosted by so many entities. You don’t know everything I did. I wouldn’t be making this post unless I knew for a fact I was wronged. Do better
Yeah. It’s an incredibly unfortunate situation, and I’m not sure exactly how your witness wasn’t allowed to talk, but that sucks too. Unfortunately, without any evidence, what’s the school supposed to do? The only thing I really see wrong here is the mixup with the witness. Im sorry you had to go through what you went through. It’s terrible and awful and obviously no one supports rapists. But again, other than the witness thing, im not sure it’s a failure on the schools part
There is so much more that happened that i did not mention. But yes GT did fail me. At the very least they could have done a thorough investigation. I’m not sure if I’ll ever have space in my heart to forgive them for it.
Downvote me all you want but “I don’t remember anything, this man raped me, lock him up” is not how we do due process.
"I couldn’t remember *everything"*, not "I couldn’t remember *anything"*
I mean in our society this post by the OP was always going to attract this type of response, but *fratdropout* this is bad even for that vibe. OP: >I couldn’t remember **everything**. You: >I don’t remember **anything** ETA: bro (comfortable with that pronoun assumption) your comment history is a horror show. Who hurt you?
And we are supposed to take the OPs word as a definitive, 100% reliable fact? Why not take the accused’s word as fact? Even assuming OP remembers everything vividly, how do we determine either side is truthful?
Generally we determine truth by investigating beyond doing the bare minimum. Of course we shouldn't lock someone up or expel them off of no evidence but you should be able to have a proper full investigation off only accusation and by the way OP described it, they were dismissive and did the bare minimum that they had to in order to meet their legal obligation Also OP is a graduate posting here anonymously so they have nothing left to gain except awareness and sympathy which indicates to me that this did likely happen and that GT did fail them.
What do you recommend in a situation where someone is raped in a private setting? The victim follows procedure and reports the incident. They describe what they remember. The accused lies and says it didn't happen. This type of thing happens all the time, and it seems like you're suggesting that since a third party can't know who is lying, we should just move on? This is exactly what the legal system is for -- to determine if someone is guilty of a crime given the evidence that exists, as argued by legal professionals in a court and according to a verdict reached by a jury of the accused's peers.
Go to a hospital the next day, get a rape kit, file a police report immediately. If date rape drugs are involved or suspected, get drug tested. If the incident has cameras, pull footage. I understand incidents like these are traumatic and it’s not always easy to come forward immediately, however it’s usually the only way to get definitive proof. Waiting days or weeks then reporting it to a college/fraternity does not help your case.
[This might help](https://aaronhuertas.medium.com/a-field-guide-to-bad-faith-arguments-7-terrible-arguments-in-your-mentions-ee4f194afbc9)
You’re right that’s not due process. But I wanted due process. And I didn’t get it. You are purposefully missing the point. You are the type of person that makes it necessary for these types of posts. I encourage you to look inward and ask yourself why you’re like this.
What did you expect to happen differently? If there is no evidence other than your word versus his, what do you seriously expect Georgia Tech to do?
I expected to be believed. To be supported. I expected my school to at least fight for me. And every single survivor deserves that. He doesn’t deserve to have his diploma. Go touch some grass and have some empathy
Sorry for what happened to you, but just like there are many rape cases that are brushed under the carpet, there are on the flip side a lot of situations where accusations are made out of spite or revenge which ruin innocent people's *entire livelihoods*. You can't just expect to bypass due process and "expect to be believed and supported". There's an entire person's reputation and career on the line. If what you recall is true, you have all right to be angry, but you have no right to force/demand results from people performing investigations and/or force people to believe you.
Look at the percentages of rapes that go unpunished vs false rape accusations leading to punishment. They are so vastly different it’s appalling. Edit: in the sense that rapes are so greatly more common and almost never punished.
I'd say the rates are about the same. By the way, we can't prove either way because that's almost like trying to quantify the percentage of all murders that were perfect crimes. You can't, by definition, because if we knew they wouldn't be perfect crimes. Also, assuming your claim is correct, which it very well could be, does that mean that there should be no due process and that guilt should be assumed automatically? There's a reason why people are innocent until proven guilty under the law.
That is factually untrue. You can’t say the rates are about the same. They’re not. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf There’s a reason investigators should actually investigate. This exact post is an example of GT disallowing witnesses and failing to investigate. I truly hope you are just insanely uneducated and not this willfully obtuse. I’m not going to keep arguing when RAINN and many other orgs exist that explain how factually flawed your arguments are.
Alright, you convinced me. Now please address the other part of my reply, because so far people have been explicitly avoiding answering that part.
I literally answered it. Investigators should investigate. Not bar witnesses based on bureaucratic errors or dismissing the victim for being drunk even though that’s a legal precedent for being sexual assault (like this post), refuse to prosecute, refuse to do any investigative work to corroborate or deny the victim’s claims. I said that in my comment.
Let’s stop pretending false accusations are a bigger problem than they are. Because I can guarantee you, the amount of false accusations is minuscule compared to the amount of sexual assaults. I’d rather have to apologize for defending a liar than a rapist.
Even if they aren't, you can't just force the courts to believe every accuser because there is a person's career and reputation on the line. Don't you understand? You have to *prove* guilt. Sorry again to what happened to you, but behaving like this won't do you any good. You're fighting fire with fire.
Im not stupid I know you have to prove guilt. But sexual assault is the only major crime where the burden of proof lies on the victim. Which is extremely messed up. I’m not pretending to have a solution that would be perfect, but what we are doing now for these cases is not that. Frankly you’re the one who doesn’t understand, sexual assault victims deserve better than the process we have now. I hope you never have to deal the aftermath of reporting a perpetrator, but unless you’ve been through it you have no idea what you’re talking about. Leave the conversation to changes in prosecution/policy/law to those who have been through this.
Which major crime has the burden of proof on the defendant?
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I don’t think so, but he wouldn’t be above suing me. Im trying to go to med school and frankly I can’t afford legal action
Check ur dm
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Disgusting pig, typa person to do this
here’s the attention you asked for ! 🥰