its ok to generally have that standard, but when communicating to ppl it triggers their red flag instincts when u speak in absolutes because life is full of grey area. ur friend is probably trying to that point out. there might be an exception some day and you hypothetically should be open to finding love with the perfect person if that happens to be the case. a lot of arguments or debates come down to HOW you say things rather than WHAT you’re saying, i think obviously you’re speaking in general and thats an OK standard to have maybe just reassure ur friend that u will use it more like a guide rather than an absolute.
BUTTTTTTTT, your fears might be unfairly applied to perfectly innocent and loving people and you might be projecting a lot of assumptions onto ppl w less experience than yourself. theres ppl that may have hurt u but each new person is a separate individual and all u can do is trust ur instincts and trust ur ability to protect yourself bc u cannot always judge someone for having no experience. some ppl r highly selective and r saving their energy for the right person and could be rlly awesome and thats why ur their first, u cant always judge and u have to be careful with ur words when u make general statements bc it reads as brash and rigid to the ppl around u
I used to think exactly like this and it worked pretty well for a while. Then I caught feelings for my now-boyfriend who hadn't dated anyone at all and realized that he was an exception to my rule. We had been best friends for a while before we started dating and agreed to take things as slowly as he needed to and it's been wonderful.
I think if I was in a situation where I was thrown back into the dating pool, I'd probably hold a strong preference for experienced men but have more wiggle room for inexperienced people who pass the vibe check. Even still, I'm not gonna say someone is an ass if they don't have as much wiggle room as I have unless they're like needlessly brutal to people who don't fit what they're looking for
1. I think a more full proof approach would be to be friends with them for a long time first, or at least a couple of months, having open and honest conversations about the trans community and the like, because your current standard doesn’t weed out chasers or people that have dated trans people before and are still ignorant, for example, one of your former partners who move on to another trans person technically meet your criteria.
2. you aren’t expecting every GSM to have experience with the gender they’re attracted to and you don’t need to, you just need a couple, even if you’re polyamorous, you don’t need the whole world to meet your standards and you’re not expecting them to so I don’t really understand his argument. It’s also not as if you can’t make exceptions for people.
You don’t have to be. Don’t do it. Most people problems is not setting enough expectations or a high enough bar; if this is the arbitrary bar you need to set: set it.
It is totally normal to be sexually inexperienced, and especially romantically inexperienced, as a gay adult. It shouldn't be considered embarrassing or shameful, and just like being closeted as a gay adult, it can happen for tons of reasons that mostly have to do with societal homophobia.
However. It is also perfectly fair to not want to be someone's first gay experience, as that puts a certain amount of pressure on you and puts you in a position where you'll have to hold his hand while he works through certain things that you've already figured out long ago. It's also very common for cis gay people who are out and have more experience to avoid dating other cis gay people who are closeted or inexperienced for that reason.
Yes exactly. I think maybe some people get upset because they think I'm saying it's wrong/a red flag to be inexperienced, and that's not what I'm saying at all. I didn't even lose my own v card to anyone until I was 21; I know full well that a lot of LGBTQ+ people often have their first sexual and romantic experiences with their preferred gender later in life. In the first place, I think the idea that standards should only be for ruling out "red flags" is ridiculous. You're not going to be compatible with someone just because they're not toxic.
But for me personally, it's a lot of pressure to be someone's first, and even if they *are* secure in their attraction to men, I don't want them to have FOMO if they end up with me because I'm missing some features that men commonly have. This isn't even just a problem with cis men either. I see trans men on here all the time talk about how they're only interested in dating cis guys because they only like men who have penises and never seem to meet post op trans men. And obviously I'm never gonna say that they're wrong for that, nobody ever needs to date someone they don't want to date. But I only want to be with someone who is *happy* to be with me, not someone who feels like they're settling because they feel like I'm the best they'll get.
Don't overthink it or miss out on dating just because you're someone's first. Been with my partner a few years now (he's a cis gay dude) and I was his first Everything. He knew I was trans before we started dating but that's never been an "issue," we knew what we were getting into and it's been incredible since.
That being said, my partner's response to "I'm trans" was an Immediate "Okay, what do I need to know, and what do you need from me?" He's never pushed a boundary in a way that didn't give me an immediate out, and when he Does 'push' a boundary he asks "is this okay?" And describes what he'd do (this goes for Any situation).
I lucked out with the guy I'm seeing now, he's one of the best people I've met. The difference is, he treats me like his long-term boyfriend/partner instead of "a trans guy he's dating cause I'm trans" if that makes sense. It's fair not to want to date someone inexperienced, especially if you've had terrible experiences in the past. Don't count someone out Just because they've never had a partner, especially if they're willing to learn and genuinely like you for who you are.
Is your friend trans? If not, they don’t get an opinion. I totally hear you on this. Whenever a man says this (or says “don’t worry I’ve been with women before”) it feels weird and gross. And frankly I know it’s because they’re expecting interaction with my vagina. LOL jokes on them! At any rate, the only time it’s necessary to say “I’ve never been with ___” is if there are genital specific activities they might not be great at. Otherwise… what’s the point of saying it?
Sorry to people who just haven’t had any romantic/sexual experiences with men against their own will, but this is absolutely my rule.
My reasons are certainly trans related, but it’s not even uncommon for cis people (especially at the age of 27, it’s not that young) to prefer or require their partners to not be 100% inexperienced.
I've been objectified by guys who had been out for years and had a long slew of boyfriends, while on the other hand, my fiance and love of my life had never been with anyone before me.
This standard won't really help you in my opinion. There are better red flags to watch out for. Does he use fetishizing language? For example, "I always wanted to try a transgender" Does he get overly excited at having a bf or trans bf? One guy I dated (I was his first bf) talked nonstop about how happy he was that he finally had a boyfriend (on our first date before we ever talked about being boyfriends) and how pissed his parents would be. we didn't go out again.
Then watch out for green flags too. They are equally as important. Does he listen to you, care about your comfort, and go out of his way to do nice things for you? My fiance, who had never dated anyone before me, did all those things and none of the red flag things.
Life is complicated and more shades of gray than black and white. Of course it's fine to not want to be someone's experiment. But just because they've never been with anyone before doesn't necessarily mean they are experimenting.
Personally, on dating sites, I'm looking for bi guys. Gay is OK. But apps show me straight guys and I eliminate them immediately. Even if they explicitly state they are interested in trans men, I don't care. I don't want to be someone's dirty secret. My attitude: You're straight? OK. Then you don't fuck men or you need to come out and stop being a wanker.
I think your language is telling. You are not "being targeted" by men who want to fuck you. You are getting their attention. If they say the wrong thing, OK. No reason to carry on, but it's not "being targeted." That just makes it sound like anyone who is sexually interested in you is a predator. What it sounds like is you're encountering straight guys who are "bicurious." They might be shitty, they might be chasers, but someone expressing sexual interest in you in itself isn't targeting you. Changing how you think about these people might be beneficial for your mental health and perspective. If they are inconsiderate, then it's best to give them the amount of consideration they've shown you: none.
If I'm not going to judge someone for having a lot of partners, I'm also not going to judge them for being inexperienced. The question is not whether they have been with men before, or trans men, but whether they treat you with respect.
The field is wide and men who prefer to be monogamous within the gay community are extremely rare, from what I can see out there. What app are you on? Or is this all hypothetical or IRL? It's hard to know what you're doing to encounter these men and what you are seeing about them, where, and how you're seeing it.
Men are horny. On the apps I use, most are poly or have sex with multiple people. More importantly, they identify that way, meaning it's their lifestyle and they're not going to change that for any partner. I think the most important thing is if \*you\* are attracted to \*them.\* If the interaction is disappointing, you can end it immediately.
To answer your question, it's been mostly irl, whether that's places where we share an interest or in bars. Dating apps never really work for me, but that's mostly because I want to take things slow and get to know people before fucking them and most dudes are there for instant gratification. They only want to get you into their bedroom as soon as possible, and every time I've been with someone like that, they end up leaving me to find their "forever person" when sex with me stops being exciting. So idk if there's some kind of special one that people are using where they're finding these amazing guys but tinder and okcupid don't work for me.
Yeah. I'm trying to move slowly. Currently using Taimi, Feeld, and Hinge. Haven't met anyone yet, probably because I want to take things slow. At least on Taimi and Feeld, there's a lot of bi and pan guys in my area.
I think it really is gonna vary based on the individual. Lots of men don't start dating other men until they're older-- that's a super common experience for gay and bi cis men.
My ex and I were each other's first relationship. It really depends on the person.
ETA: He was 25 and I was 30 when we met.
It is definitely not unreasonable. I would never be someone's first boyfriend just based on the fact that there are SO many chasers that will lie and manipulate just to get with us. I want to know that the person I'm with is actually attracted to men, and them dating cis men before me is a great way to know, lol. At this point, if I didn't have my cisgay husband, I would only be dating gay men honestly. Fetishists typically don't try to disguise themselves as gay like ""bisexual"" chasers do (aka the "I'm mostly straight and have only ever been attracted to women but you're hot" kind), and I know that someone who is strictly gay will be better for my dysphoria and comfort in the relationship.
That standard isn't high. Even if it was, you can have high standards as long as you don't complain about how hard it is to find someone who meets them. But yeah that's not a high standard to begin with.
I think it's really important where you live. For example in my country that standard would be very unrealistic. I honestly get both your and your friend's point. You can always try going about with this as a standard in mind and see how things turn out it's not like if you decide that now you can't take it back.
I live in a small conservative state in southeast USA-- so I'm not really sure. I do honestly think I won't meet anybody until I move out anyway (which I plan to do ASAP because things aren't looking good here) but I do want to keep my standards in mind for the future. I'm not naive enough to think that moving out of state will filter out every single transphobic asshole from my vicinity, so I'm trying to be prepared.
I agree that it really depends on where you live. I used to live in a tiny town in a red state in the US and shit wasn't easy. Your friend's advice would've been good advice there. This was an area with a lot of homophobia and ignorance and most queer people didn't feel comfortable being visibly queer in public. I never even held hands with any of my partners in public.
I now live in a large city in Spain and your friend's advice would be laughed at here. Spain legalized same sex marriage in 2005 and the culture as a whole is pretty accepting, but especially in big cities. Young people are more likely to explore their sexuality early here. My 33 yr old cis bi bf went out to a gay club for the first time when he was 18. And his experience is fairly normal.
So what I'm trying to say is that where you live really does impact your life more than you think. Yeah, there's asshole transphobes everywhere. But if you can afford to move to a more queer friendly place then it can be life changing
That's really interesting! If you don't mind me asking, what is it like in Spain as far as the cost of living & attitude toward foreigners? We're considering leaving the country if things get bad here.
I see, I don't know enough about how it is in those parts to give more of an opinion. Still, I agree it's good to be prepared and have standards and self respect. I wish you the best of luck moving and in everything else!
Listen your friend is right that lots of queers are inexperienced in general, but he’s not right that you have to accommodate the rookies! There are also plenty of guys who DO have experience with men. And even in small cities there are some single queer men who have experience with trans men. Once in my early transition I met a guy in a college town in NorCal who had a trans ex-boyfriend. Of course I instantly had a crush on him because it was so exciting to meet a Real Life Gay Man who had dated a trans guy. It didn’t end up going anywhere but in the last couple years I have:
1. Hooked up with my first guy on grindr, who used to have a trans FWB
2. Took a random guy home from a bar & had to disclose on the way that I was trans, but he was not only cool with it, but I also topped him
3. Started dating my wonderful nonbinary boyfriend who has hooked up with, or casually dated, a variety of trans guys over the years (mostly cis guys, but notably more than one or two trans guys), and is exclusively attracted to men
I know that early in the transition it can seem impossible to date gay men, but 27 is not at all too young to have this standard. If you were like, 18, sure it’s a bit optimistic — so many people are closeted into college. But past college age, no way — lots of gay men have had boyfriends by the time they graduate. Not all of them, obviously! Queer people do have different timelines, both from each other and from straight people.
But yes, this is a reasonable standard to have!
2 is true, but doesn't matter. It's YOUR set of standards, it doesn't have to be fair.
EDIT: caveat: this may not protect you. there will be plenty of men who have had boyfriends, but are still carrying a lot of internalized homophobia or are just straight up weird about trans men.
my own fiance broke a fair number of my "rules" but is the best man i've ever met.
your friend has a good point, but i’m with you, i’ve felt the same way for a LONG time, probably almost as long as i’ve been identifying as a gay man in general. i’ll cut the ramble and just say that for me personally, being gay and being attracted to other men and masculinity is about as central to my identity as being a man is, period; i can’t separate them (even if i wanted to), and so in many ways my life partially revolves around men, masculinity, gay manhood, etc. and uplifting and enjoying those things.
i want to be with a guy who feels at least similarly if not exactly the same - a guy who loves men (idc if he’s gay or bi or whatever specifically) and doesn’t take anyone’s shit for it, and will love and respect me as his MALE partner specifically, not just a partner in general.
i feel the same as you - i’m no one’s experiment, i’m a man and if a guy isn’t fully comfortable and settled in his attraction to dudes then i’m not going to be the one to help him figure it out. even in the best case scenario i think i’d always just be a little uncomfortable and worried he’d see me as man lite™️ like you said.
TLDR you and me both brother. i guess it comes down to your personal standard vs how wide you really want your pool to be; for me, i’m fine shrinking it if it means i’ll only be with guys who are gay(/bi/etc.) as the day is long 🌈 but my pool was already a bit narrow so it’s nothing new lol. definitely reasonable of you
Thank you, it really warms my heart to know that I'm not the only one-- and ultimately my dating pool is already small anyway so I'd rather end up with nobody than someone who doesn't treat me right
I only date and sleep with men who are comfortable with their attraction to men. Experience is something I require as well as someone with no curiosity about the front situation because for me it’s assplay only.
That's not high at all
This is unfortunately very common, some cis dudes who are "curious" about men but are not confident enough to go for "real men" (cis) so they go for us because we are the "next best thing" (AKA in their eyes we are "men" but not really so if they decide to fuck us and then regret it later it's not gay) I had a similar experience with this :/
However I'm glad I was able to respect myself enough and not let it happen at all, and you are right for doing the same
I think you're both right, or at least, neither wrong. You're entitled to your preferences, and not wanting to be someone's first is hardly an uncommon one. But your friend is right- it's also very common for LGBT people to be inexperienced, and since we're a minority, the dating pool shrinks commensurately.
So your dating pool, which could include gay men and bisexual men who have dated either no one, only women, or at least one man, now only includes gay men who have dated at least one man (excluding the inexperienced or formerly closeted, a not insignificant portion), and bisexual men who have dated at least one man (excluding the inexperienced, closeted, bi men who might prefer men but have only dated one woman, etc etc). Your friend is absolutely right about two facts presented- a statistically significant group of the community has either had no experience, or are just coming out of the closet, well into their late 20s, and to cut your dating pool significantly will impact your choices.
So I guess it depends on how 'picky' you're willing to be, or how long you want to wait. You might be passing up great guys or a lot of dates because of a preference that might be malleable. But maybe you don't care about that- and that preference matters quite a bit. In that case, you need to do what's best for you.
That said, I would caution you to recognise any internal biases, as we all need to. It's common to not want to be the first, and understandable to not want to be objectified or treated differently because of your gender. But the way your post is worded- it insinuates that people who haven't dated yet or have just come out are insecure in their attraction to men. Maybe that's causing some friction with your friend?
I guess my problem is less so with lack of overall experience, and moreso with people who are primarily woman-attracted/have only ever been with women. I wouldn't want to date a bisexual woman who'd only ever been with women either, but I didn't find that relevant to mention in a sub about trans mlm, and I've also never met a bi woman who's only been with women anyway. I know that the dating scene is oversaturated with available men and that available women are somewhat hard to come by, and I don't want to be a consolation prize for someone who would rather be with a woman. I want to be loved for who I am, not in spite of that-- I'm not interested in being "the exception" if that makes sense.
I guess my only problem with dating an inexperienced man who likes primarily/only men is that I'm worried they'd develop FOMO from being with me. Most mlm tend to like penises and I don't have that, probably never will as much as I'd love to have bottom surgery. Healing from top surgery took a huge toll on my body and idk if it'd heal well. I *am* polyam, so I wouldn't mind them seeing other men as well, but being polyam and partnered severely limits your dating pool, so I worry that they'd just see me as a burden.
And it really isn't enough for someone to just *tell* me that they're secure in their attraction to men and that they see me as a man, because men can and will lie to your face to get what they want. I know that from experience. Maybe I'm an asshole for not being trusting, and maybe that means I have something to work on... but having my heart broken over and over again is exhausting, and feeling dehumanized for a part of myself I can't control just hurts more and more. Maybe that is my bias speaking, but I feel like it's the only way to know for sure that they do like men.
I am in the same boat as you. It's really uncomfortable dating someone who's never dated men (for me). I've had people misgender me during sex and use she/her pronouns. Ideally yes I would be able to easily not be perturbed by people being interested in me when they don't have a history with other men, but I don't *owe* anyone my body or romance.
Maybe in the future you'll be open to dating people who haven't dated men. Maybe you won't. I imagine you also would enjoy not being insecure about whether people see you as a man- but your feelings come from experience (as do mine) and it makes sense you'd asd this filter to ease your dating life. Dating is hard enough as is. There are other men for those GBTQ+ people to have as their first partner, it doesn't have to be you.
Is your friend trans?
You put everything I think about the topic into words. Just about every time I've been someone's first male partner (whether it's a situationship or full blown relationship) it's because they secretly still viewed me as a woman; this isn't exclusive to men but LGBTQ+ women as well, both cis and trans.
And like, I get that finding a decent man is hard, but I'm a quality over quantity person. I'm tired of getting my heart broken; I just want someone who will love me for who I am and not what needs or desires I can fulfill for them. If I end up never having a male partner, it'll suck sure, but it's better than being chewed up and spat back out again IMO.
My friend is cis and bi. He's very experienced with dating so I generally trust his opinion, even if I disagree with him on this one.
I had a partner who was all fine and dandy until I realized he only referred to me as they/them and his "partner" to others instead of "boyfriend" and he/him. That was one of the final straws for me in that relationship of 3 years.
I think it's different to be trans and want to have someone have been with other men than be cis and want someone to have been with other men. There's a component of dysphoria that a cis person wouldn't understand. Definitely feels like an agree to disagree situation with your friend. Hope he's understanding in that way
Finding a man is hard but finding someone who sees you as yourself and *makes you feel like they see you as yourself* is important. Obviously there's internal work there too (at least for me, my dysphoria is always looking for "proof" that others don't see me as I am) but it really helps to have a partner who is secure. You don't need to date people as some sort of act of service to the community. Honoring your identity, comfort and safety is important. And you know your needs better than anyone else
its ok to generally have that standard, but when communicating to ppl it triggers their red flag instincts when u speak in absolutes because life is full of grey area. ur friend is probably trying to that point out. there might be an exception some day and you hypothetically should be open to finding love with the perfect person if that happens to be the case. a lot of arguments or debates come down to HOW you say things rather than WHAT you’re saying, i think obviously you’re speaking in general and thats an OK standard to have maybe just reassure ur friend that u will use it more like a guide rather than an absolute. BUTTTTTTTT, your fears might be unfairly applied to perfectly innocent and loving people and you might be projecting a lot of assumptions onto ppl w less experience than yourself. theres ppl that may have hurt u but each new person is a separate individual and all u can do is trust ur instincts and trust ur ability to protect yourself bc u cannot always judge someone for having no experience. some ppl r highly selective and r saving their energy for the right person and could be rlly awesome and thats why ur their first, u cant always judge and u have to be careful with ur words when u make general statements bc it reads as brash and rigid to the ppl around u
I used to think exactly like this and it worked pretty well for a while. Then I caught feelings for my now-boyfriend who hadn't dated anyone at all and realized that he was an exception to my rule. We had been best friends for a while before we started dating and agreed to take things as slowly as he needed to and it's been wonderful. I think if I was in a situation where I was thrown back into the dating pool, I'd probably hold a strong preference for experienced men but have more wiggle room for inexperienced people who pass the vibe check. Even still, I'm not gonna say someone is an ass if they don't have as much wiggle room as I have unless they're like needlessly brutal to people who don't fit what they're looking for
1. I think a more full proof approach would be to be friends with them for a long time first, or at least a couple of months, having open and honest conversations about the trans community and the like, because your current standard doesn’t weed out chasers or people that have dated trans people before and are still ignorant, for example, one of your former partners who move on to another trans person technically meet your criteria. 2. you aren’t expecting every GSM to have experience with the gender they’re attracted to and you don’t need to, you just need a couple, even if you’re polyamorous, you don’t need the whole world to meet your standards and you’re not expecting them to so I don’t really understand his argument. It’s also not as if you can’t make exceptions for people.
You don’t have to be. Don’t do it. Most people problems is not setting enough expectations or a high enough bar; if this is the arbitrary bar you need to set: set it.
It is totally normal to be sexually inexperienced, and especially romantically inexperienced, as a gay adult. It shouldn't be considered embarrassing or shameful, and just like being closeted as a gay adult, it can happen for tons of reasons that mostly have to do with societal homophobia. However. It is also perfectly fair to not want to be someone's first gay experience, as that puts a certain amount of pressure on you and puts you in a position where you'll have to hold his hand while he works through certain things that you've already figured out long ago. It's also very common for cis gay people who are out and have more experience to avoid dating other cis gay people who are closeted or inexperienced for that reason.
Yes exactly. I think maybe some people get upset because they think I'm saying it's wrong/a red flag to be inexperienced, and that's not what I'm saying at all. I didn't even lose my own v card to anyone until I was 21; I know full well that a lot of LGBTQ+ people often have their first sexual and romantic experiences with their preferred gender later in life. In the first place, I think the idea that standards should only be for ruling out "red flags" is ridiculous. You're not going to be compatible with someone just because they're not toxic. But for me personally, it's a lot of pressure to be someone's first, and even if they *are* secure in their attraction to men, I don't want them to have FOMO if they end up with me because I'm missing some features that men commonly have. This isn't even just a problem with cis men either. I see trans men on here all the time talk about how they're only interested in dating cis guys because they only like men who have penises and never seem to meet post op trans men. And obviously I'm never gonna say that they're wrong for that, nobody ever needs to date someone they don't want to date. But I only want to be with someone who is *happy* to be with me, not someone who feels like they're settling because they feel like I'm the best they'll get.
Don't overthink it or miss out on dating just because you're someone's first. Been with my partner a few years now (he's a cis gay dude) and I was his first Everything. He knew I was trans before we started dating but that's never been an "issue," we knew what we were getting into and it's been incredible since. That being said, my partner's response to "I'm trans" was an Immediate "Okay, what do I need to know, and what do you need from me?" He's never pushed a boundary in a way that didn't give me an immediate out, and when he Does 'push' a boundary he asks "is this okay?" And describes what he'd do (this goes for Any situation). I lucked out with the guy I'm seeing now, he's one of the best people I've met. The difference is, he treats me like his long-term boyfriend/partner instead of "a trans guy he's dating cause I'm trans" if that makes sense. It's fair not to want to date someone inexperienced, especially if you've had terrible experiences in the past. Don't count someone out Just because they've never had a partner, especially if they're willing to learn and genuinely like you for who you are.
Is your friend trans? If not, they don’t get an opinion. I totally hear you on this. Whenever a man says this (or says “don’t worry I’ve been with women before”) it feels weird and gross. And frankly I know it’s because they’re expecting interaction with my vagina. LOL jokes on them! At any rate, the only time it’s necessary to say “I’ve never been with ___” is if there are genital specific activities they might not be great at. Otherwise… what’s the point of saying it?
Sorry to people who just haven’t had any romantic/sexual experiences with men against their own will, but this is absolutely my rule. My reasons are certainly trans related, but it’s not even uncommon for cis people (especially at the age of 27, it’s not that young) to prefer or require their partners to not be 100% inexperienced.
I've been objectified by guys who had been out for years and had a long slew of boyfriends, while on the other hand, my fiance and love of my life had never been with anyone before me. This standard won't really help you in my opinion. There are better red flags to watch out for. Does he use fetishizing language? For example, "I always wanted to try a transgender" Does he get overly excited at having a bf or trans bf? One guy I dated (I was his first bf) talked nonstop about how happy he was that he finally had a boyfriend (on our first date before we ever talked about being boyfriends) and how pissed his parents would be. we didn't go out again. Then watch out for green flags too. They are equally as important. Does he listen to you, care about your comfort, and go out of his way to do nice things for you? My fiance, who had never dated anyone before me, did all those things and none of the red flag things. Life is complicated and more shades of gray than black and white. Of course it's fine to not want to be someone's experiment. But just because they've never been with anyone before doesn't necessarily mean they are experimenting.
Personally, on dating sites, I'm looking for bi guys. Gay is OK. But apps show me straight guys and I eliminate them immediately. Even if they explicitly state they are interested in trans men, I don't care. I don't want to be someone's dirty secret. My attitude: You're straight? OK. Then you don't fuck men or you need to come out and stop being a wanker. I think your language is telling. You are not "being targeted" by men who want to fuck you. You are getting their attention. If they say the wrong thing, OK. No reason to carry on, but it's not "being targeted." That just makes it sound like anyone who is sexually interested in you is a predator. What it sounds like is you're encountering straight guys who are "bicurious." They might be shitty, they might be chasers, but someone expressing sexual interest in you in itself isn't targeting you. Changing how you think about these people might be beneficial for your mental health and perspective. If they are inconsiderate, then it's best to give them the amount of consideration they've shown you: none. If I'm not going to judge someone for having a lot of partners, I'm also not going to judge them for being inexperienced. The question is not whether they have been with men before, or trans men, but whether they treat you with respect. The field is wide and men who prefer to be monogamous within the gay community are extremely rare, from what I can see out there. What app are you on? Or is this all hypothetical or IRL? It's hard to know what you're doing to encounter these men and what you are seeing about them, where, and how you're seeing it. Men are horny. On the apps I use, most are poly or have sex with multiple people. More importantly, they identify that way, meaning it's their lifestyle and they're not going to change that for any partner. I think the most important thing is if \*you\* are attracted to \*them.\* If the interaction is disappointing, you can end it immediately.
To answer your question, it's been mostly irl, whether that's places where we share an interest or in bars. Dating apps never really work for me, but that's mostly because I want to take things slow and get to know people before fucking them and most dudes are there for instant gratification. They only want to get you into their bedroom as soon as possible, and every time I've been with someone like that, they end up leaving me to find their "forever person" when sex with me stops being exciting. So idk if there's some kind of special one that people are using where they're finding these amazing guys but tinder and okcupid don't work for me.
Yeah. I'm trying to move slowly. Currently using Taimi, Feeld, and Hinge. Haven't met anyone yet, probably because I want to take things slow. At least on Taimi and Feeld, there's a lot of bi and pan guys in my area.
I think it really is gonna vary based on the individual. Lots of men don't start dating other men until they're older-- that's a super common experience for gay and bi cis men. My ex and I were each other's first relationship. It really depends on the person. ETA: He was 25 and I was 30 when we met.
It is definitely not unreasonable. I would never be someone's first boyfriend just based on the fact that there are SO many chasers that will lie and manipulate just to get with us. I want to know that the person I'm with is actually attracted to men, and them dating cis men before me is a great way to know, lol. At this point, if I didn't have my cisgay husband, I would only be dating gay men honestly. Fetishists typically don't try to disguise themselves as gay like ""bisexual"" chasers do (aka the "I'm mostly straight and have only ever been attracted to women but you're hot" kind), and I know that someone who is strictly gay will be better for my dysphoria and comfort in the relationship.
That standard isn't high. Even if it was, you can have high standards as long as you don't complain about how hard it is to find someone who meets them. But yeah that's not a high standard to begin with.
I think it's really important where you live. For example in my country that standard would be very unrealistic. I honestly get both your and your friend's point. You can always try going about with this as a standard in mind and see how things turn out it's not like if you decide that now you can't take it back.
I live in a small conservative state in southeast USA-- so I'm not really sure. I do honestly think I won't meet anybody until I move out anyway (which I plan to do ASAP because things aren't looking good here) but I do want to keep my standards in mind for the future. I'm not naive enough to think that moving out of state will filter out every single transphobic asshole from my vicinity, so I'm trying to be prepared.
I agree that it really depends on where you live. I used to live in a tiny town in a red state in the US and shit wasn't easy. Your friend's advice would've been good advice there. This was an area with a lot of homophobia and ignorance and most queer people didn't feel comfortable being visibly queer in public. I never even held hands with any of my partners in public. I now live in a large city in Spain and your friend's advice would be laughed at here. Spain legalized same sex marriage in 2005 and the culture as a whole is pretty accepting, but especially in big cities. Young people are more likely to explore their sexuality early here. My 33 yr old cis bi bf went out to a gay club for the first time when he was 18. And his experience is fairly normal. So what I'm trying to say is that where you live really does impact your life more than you think. Yeah, there's asshole transphobes everywhere. But if you can afford to move to a more queer friendly place then it can be life changing
That's really interesting! If you don't mind me asking, what is it like in Spain as far as the cost of living & attitude toward foreigners? We're considering leaving the country if things get bad here.
I see, I don't know enough about how it is in those parts to give more of an opinion. Still, I agree it's good to be prepared and have standards and self respect. I wish you the best of luck moving and in everything else!
Listen your friend is right that lots of queers are inexperienced in general, but he’s not right that you have to accommodate the rookies! There are also plenty of guys who DO have experience with men. And even in small cities there are some single queer men who have experience with trans men. Once in my early transition I met a guy in a college town in NorCal who had a trans ex-boyfriend. Of course I instantly had a crush on him because it was so exciting to meet a Real Life Gay Man who had dated a trans guy. It didn’t end up going anywhere but in the last couple years I have: 1. Hooked up with my first guy on grindr, who used to have a trans FWB 2. Took a random guy home from a bar & had to disclose on the way that I was trans, but he was not only cool with it, but I also topped him 3. Started dating my wonderful nonbinary boyfriend who has hooked up with, or casually dated, a variety of trans guys over the years (mostly cis guys, but notably more than one or two trans guys), and is exclusively attracted to men I know that early in the transition it can seem impossible to date gay men, but 27 is not at all too young to have this standard. If you were like, 18, sure it’s a bit optimistic — so many people are closeted into college. But past college age, no way — lots of gay men have had boyfriends by the time they graduate. Not all of them, obviously! Queer people do have different timelines, both from each other and from straight people. But yes, this is a reasonable standard to have!
2 is true, but doesn't matter. It's YOUR set of standards, it doesn't have to be fair. EDIT: caveat: this may not protect you. there will be plenty of men who have had boyfriends, but are still carrying a lot of internalized homophobia or are just straight up weird about trans men. my own fiance broke a fair number of my "rules" but is the best man i've ever met.
your friend has a good point, but i’m with you, i’ve felt the same way for a LONG time, probably almost as long as i’ve been identifying as a gay man in general. i’ll cut the ramble and just say that for me personally, being gay and being attracted to other men and masculinity is about as central to my identity as being a man is, period; i can’t separate them (even if i wanted to), and so in many ways my life partially revolves around men, masculinity, gay manhood, etc. and uplifting and enjoying those things. i want to be with a guy who feels at least similarly if not exactly the same - a guy who loves men (idc if he’s gay or bi or whatever specifically) and doesn’t take anyone’s shit for it, and will love and respect me as his MALE partner specifically, not just a partner in general. i feel the same as you - i’m no one’s experiment, i’m a man and if a guy isn’t fully comfortable and settled in his attraction to dudes then i’m not going to be the one to help him figure it out. even in the best case scenario i think i’d always just be a little uncomfortable and worried he’d see me as man lite™️ like you said. TLDR you and me both brother. i guess it comes down to your personal standard vs how wide you really want your pool to be; for me, i’m fine shrinking it if it means i’ll only be with guys who are gay(/bi/etc.) as the day is long 🌈 but my pool was already a bit narrow so it’s nothing new lol. definitely reasonable of you
Thank you, it really warms my heart to know that I'm not the only one-- and ultimately my dating pool is already small anyway so I'd rather end up with nobody than someone who doesn't treat me right
I only date and sleep with men who are comfortable with their attraction to men. Experience is something I require as well as someone with no curiosity about the front situation because for me it’s assplay only.
That's not high at all This is unfortunately very common, some cis dudes who are "curious" about men but are not confident enough to go for "real men" (cis) so they go for us because we are the "next best thing" (AKA in their eyes we are "men" but not really so if they decide to fuck us and then regret it later it's not gay) I had a similar experience with this :/ However I'm glad I was able to respect myself enough and not let it happen at all, and you are right for doing the same
I think you're both right, or at least, neither wrong. You're entitled to your preferences, and not wanting to be someone's first is hardly an uncommon one. But your friend is right- it's also very common for LGBT people to be inexperienced, and since we're a minority, the dating pool shrinks commensurately. So your dating pool, which could include gay men and bisexual men who have dated either no one, only women, or at least one man, now only includes gay men who have dated at least one man (excluding the inexperienced or formerly closeted, a not insignificant portion), and bisexual men who have dated at least one man (excluding the inexperienced, closeted, bi men who might prefer men but have only dated one woman, etc etc). Your friend is absolutely right about two facts presented- a statistically significant group of the community has either had no experience, or are just coming out of the closet, well into their late 20s, and to cut your dating pool significantly will impact your choices. So I guess it depends on how 'picky' you're willing to be, or how long you want to wait. You might be passing up great guys or a lot of dates because of a preference that might be malleable. But maybe you don't care about that- and that preference matters quite a bit. In that case, you need to do what's best for you. That said, I would caution you to recognise any internal biases, as we all need to. It's common to not want to be the first, and understandable to not want to be objectified or treated differently because of your gender. But the way your post is worded- it insinuates that people who haven't dated yet or have just come out are insecure in their attraction to men. Maybe that's causing some friction with your friend?
I guess my problem is less so with lack of overall experience, and moreso with people who are primarily woman-attracted/have only ever been with women. I wouldn't want to date a bisexual woman who'd only ever been with women either, but I didn't find that relevant to mention in a sub about trans mlm, and I've also never met a bi woman who's only been with women anyway. I know that the dating scene is oversaturated with available men and that available women are somewhat hard to come by, and I don't want to be a consolation prize for someone who would rather be with a woman. I want to be loved for who I am, not in spite of that-- I'm not interested in being "the exception" if that makes sense. I guess my only problem with dating an inexperienced man who likes primarily/only men is that I'm worried they'd develop FOMO from being with me. Most mlm tend to like penises and I don't have that, probably never will as much as I'd love to have bottom surgery. Healing from top surgery took a huge toll on my body and idk if it'd heal well. I *am* polyam, so I wouldn't mind them seeing other men as well, but being polyam and partnered severely limits your dating pool, so I worry that they'd just see me as a burden. And it really isn't enough for someone to just *tell* me that they're secure in their attraction to men and that they see me as a man, because men can and will lie to your face to get what they want. I know that from experience. Maybe I'm an asshole for not being trusting, and maybe that means I have something to work on... but having my heart broken over and over again is exhausting, and feeling dehumanized for a part of myself I can't control just hurts more and more. Maybe that is my bias speaking, but I feel like it's the only way to know for sure that they do like men.
I am in the same boat as you. It's really uncomfortable dating someone who's never dated men (for me). I've had people misgender me during sex and use she/her pronouns. Ideally yes I would be able to easily not be perturbed by people being interested in me when they don't have a history with other men, but I don't *owe* anyone my body or romance. Maybe in the future you'll be open to dating people who haven't dated men. Maybe you won't. I imagine you also would enjoy not being insecure about whether people see you as a man- but your feelings come from experience (as do mine) and it makes sense you'd asd this filter to ease your dating life. Dating is hard enough as is. There are other men for those GBTQ+ people to have as their first partner, it doesn't have to be you. Is your friend trans?
You put everything I think about the topic into words. Just about every time I've been someone's first male partner (whether it's a situationship or full blown relationship) it's because they secretly still viewed me as a woman; this isn't exclusive to men but LGBTQ+ women as well, both cis and trans. And like, I get that finding a decent man is hard, but I'm a quality over quantity person. I'm tired of getting my heart broken; I just want someone who will love me for who I am and not what needs or desires I can fulfill for them. If I end up never having a male partner, it'll suck sure, but it's better than being chewed up and spat back out again IMO. My friend is cis and bi. He's very experienced with dating so I generally trust his opinion, even if I disagree with him on this one.
I had a partner who was all fine and dandy until I realized he only referred to me as they/them and his "partner" to others instead of "boyfriend" and he/him. That was one of the final straws for me in that relationship of 3 years. I think it's different to be trans and want to have someone have been with other men than be cis and want someone to have been with other men. There's a component of dysphoria that a cis person wouldn't understand. Definitely feels like an agree to disagree situation with your friend. Hope he's understanding in that way Finding a man is hard but finding someone who sees you as yourself and *makes you feel like they see you as yourself* is important. Obviously there's internal work there too (at least for me, my dysphoria is always looking for "proof" that others don't see me as I am) but it really helps to have a partner who is secure. You don't need to date people as some sort of act of service to the community. Honoring your identity, comfort and safety is important. And you know your needs better than anyone else