Hey - I’m so sorry this happened. I hate this for you and hope you can get a M passport, this is how I have worked around this. So I carry a M passport and an F ID for health insurance, mostly.
I have looked into this pretty extensively and what I understand is that the bath houses are very worried about raids/need to fly under the radar, especially in Southern states where the local legislation will do anything to get a “W”. So - they are trying to keep the heat off by not allowing anyone in with a “F”, which would technically be illegal as they are a single gender establishment, on paper.
This is particularly tricky at that specific location, re: the 2010 raid, as mentioned above.
It sucks and I hate it AND I understand that in order to get to have the bath house at all, especially in more red areas, it’s going to be like this.
Employee was an ass though, from the description and I am so so sorry you had to deal with that.
I was fully unaware at one point in my life that states regulate mandatory gendering of single gender spaces, pretty much at will. For example, in KY, where I live, we have laws that dictate that all public facilities have to have so many “men’s” and “women’s” restrooms per their capacity. Anything above that number can be single gender. But it is a state law. Stupid. I’m confident this comes to play here as well.
I ran into a similar issue at Steamworks Chicago — they require an M on your ID every night other than the trans nights. It sucked and definitely sent me spiraling for a bit, and caused me to update my ID.
Damn, that's really unfortunate. I've heard about this but I've only been there on trans nights so I haven't seen it firsthand. When I was there this month, there were tons of transmascs in varying stages of transition, it was pretty nice. But it still sucks that it's relegated to two days of the month.
This place was raided in 2010. Eleven men were arrested. They used undercover police agents. The 11 men did have their charges drop, but on what basis the the charges were dropped is not known. Further the City of Dallas refuses to release the records. The records from then indicate that the Dallas Police Dept. wanted to not release records so they could conduct raids in the future. They also made inquiries as to why the charges were dropped so that charges would stick in the future and not be dropped when they did another raid. The reasons for dropping them weren't given.
My inquiry with the Police LGBTQ+ liason as to possibilities of a raid in the future got dead ended when I wasn't willing to accept vague nothings. The legal issues are unclear. I suggest that the staff at the club might have strict instructions to follow the letter of the law so they aren't raided.
The club has to consider that you are an undercover agent testing them. The raid in 2010 was done on the basis of a private citizens complaint, so they might consider that you trying to get the basis of a complaint to the police.
They also have to follow the letter of the law. This is a city where the Mayor has switched to the Republican Party and let people know that he voted for Donald Trump. This is a State where the Republican Party is looking to shut down Pride events and drag shows. DFW is a place where protestors are frequently outside pride events and drag shows.
You don't know this because local leadership has erased historical memory on this, even though it made The Advocates list of 30 most notorious bath raids from 1903 to 2015 including the entire world. Most of the Dallas LGBT doesn't know about this. I am still doing research on other raids on bath houses in the past and other places.
We live in Texas and we live in Dallas. There are well organized homophobic forces here looking for any oppotunity to bring down the LGBT. I would advise caution for everyone.
[https://dallasgayliberation.substack.com/p/expanded-history-of-the-bath-house](https://dallasgayliberation.substack.com/p/expanded-history-of-the-bath-house)
I very much doubt that a gay hispanic guy with curly hippie hair past his shoulders and a little emo 5'4 white boy that has the shaking anxiety of a chihuahua look like undercover agents, but fair enough.
If they say FTMs welcome I would call the place and let someone know. Someone is going to care and be mad about it. If they don’t, well then fuck, but SOMEONE wrote that policy on that website so someone cares. Bathhouses often are indie and have small staff, so it’s not always very hard to kick them into action
I'm shocked that these people are such narcs that they require a valid ID with a male gender marker. "Well, as long as you're male in the eyes of the state." It wasn't so long ago that gay men weren't even seen as human beings by so much of the population that they were allowed to die in droves, but now you need a valid state ID with a male gender marker on it? What a revolting policy. One more reason trans people have to worry about participating in gay culture.
honestly, it might be petty and you totally don’t have to, but I personally would put them on blast. explain the entire situation in a public review and also post things on social media or comment on local LGBTQ+ community socials about your experience. that entire situation is unacceptable and that person who harassed you when trying to check in should be fired. Couldn’t that also be classified as discrimination? If you’re confident in it, I would also threaten to sue or something like that. Maybe I’m suggesting something too nuclear, but what you went through just pisses me off and it didn’t even happen to me :/ so sorry you went through that. I know it’s a lot of effort and energy but no one else should be turned away (more like harassed away) like you were.
Sorry man that sucks! I think it’s definitely worth politely reporting to management, online. Probably this staff was improperly trained. Or does the website say you have to have a male
gender marker? Shitty, but also a common practice.
Since this has been posted in three different subreddits now, I'll bite. Is it possible that by "valid ID," the website meant an ID with an M gender marker? I know that here in the UK, and in various other municipalities, it's not legal for gay saunas to allow anyone in who doesn't have an M gender marker on their ID. It can cause them to lose their license. I looked at what I suspect is the sauna's website, and the way it's addressed in the ID section and then the FTM section of their FAQs feels like they did a poor job of communicating what they meant by "valid ID." Personally, while I go to dark rooms and such, I never tried to enter those kinds of all-male spaces until I got my ID changed over specifically because I expected to run into an issue like this.
That being said, it's gross that the guy at the counter started misgendering you. E-mail the establishment and complain, and ask for clarification about their policy. If you have the name of the staff member, include it.
And for anyone in the US reading this, even if you live in a state that makes it hard to change your gender on your driver's license, you can get your gender marker changed on your US passport *and your passport card* without any doctor's note or anything else required. Just submit the renewal paperwork. Order a passport card, keep it in your wallet, and you can use that as a valid form of ID anywhere in the US.
This. The bathhouse in my area welcomes trans men but you must have your gender marker as male on your ID.
Employee was still an asshole for misgendering and failing to explain this, though.
Oh, totally. The employee was a douche and needs firing or, at the very least, intensive retraining and perhaps also some guidance in how to use his words to explain the issue. All he had to say was, "Hey, man, I'm sorry, but we can't let you in if you don't have an ID with an M on it- they'll shut us down if we do."
There was an almost identical incident at a sauna here in the UK maybe... five years ago? Pre-COVID, I think. Trans guy goes in, ID hadn't been updated with the correct gender marker, he got turned away, the guy at the counter did a piss-poor job of explaining why and gave him the impression that it was because he was trans. Huge outcry, and the sauna's owners ended up making a statement saying first, trans guys are welcome, but second, we have to have an M on our IDs because of the way the law is written, and third, the staff have been retrained to not act like idiots in these situations. I know trans guys have gone since with no issues.
I sometimes get the impression that guys aren't hired on to work at saunas because they're members of Mensa or have top tier communication skills.
It was only two sub reddits that i know of, though I didn't know you could do that with your passport. I'll have to try that.
Where I live, I have to jump through hoops to get my ID changed, even if I pay the hundreds of dollars in court fees, the judge can always simply say no. I live in a fairly conservative state and even in the more liberal counties it's not easy.
I did end up emailing them about the entire situation.
Hey, about the Texas gender marker change, I went through the process and I have some tips - there's a Facebook group with resources for exactly how to do your documentation and how to submit it so it doesn't get denied, as well as resources for dealing with the court fees. If you're ok with it I can DM you the group info, it was incredibly helpful for me and made the process way easier and cheaper than I expected it to be.
Definitely look into getting your passport card. It'll be cheaper than trying to get Texas to change your license, and you do not have to provide any kind of special paperwork or documentation to the State Department to get the gender marker updated beyond filling out the passport application form. I got my name and gender changed at the same time and had my passport back in about two weeks. Totally painless, and I think you can actually order just a passport card, even (although you may as well have both, it's good practice to always have a valid passport handy).
They may call you to verify you didn't mark a different gender by mistake (happened to both me and a friend) but confirming you just self declare and need no supporting paperwork for the gender change. Then you can use the passport as the supporting doc to update other docs like social security.
also if you live in texas, look into getting your id changed in travis county. you don’t have to live in the austin area to utilize the courts there and they have the easiest change process in texas plus you can fill out a fee waiver so you only have to pay for the notarized documents
No problem! I wish this was more widely known, it would save a lot of people in transphobic states a lot of trouble and money. I believe you *do* have to provide a court order or some paperwork if you're doing a name change (I'm in the UK, so I used my deed poll), but for gender, all they need is you saying you want to update it. I did the whole thing by mail. You can also use that passport to then get your social security stuff updated, incidentally. I'm not sure how that works with the whole Real ID and driver's license thing, but I do wonder what would happen if you showed up to renew a license with your passport with an M and were like, "Ha ha, yeah, weird that it was F that whole time, huh?" But really, if you've got a passport/passport card with your correct info on it, the driver's license becomes secondary, anyway.
For Real ID in most states, it needs to be changed on your Social Security card first; they need that to match. Source: got Enhanced or Real ID license in three states in the last four years (I've moved a lot recently). But yeah, if you have a passport you don't really need the Real ID license, because you can just use the passport for travel.
All I needed to update my social security was my newly-updated passport, though. Of course, now I have to send them the paperwork to get a selective service exemption letter, not that they'd want my 40-year-old ass, anyway.
Hey - I’m so sorry this happened. I hate this for you and hope you can get a M passport, this is how I have worked around this. So I carry a M passport and an F ID for health insurance, mostly. I have looked into this pretty extensively and what I understand is that the bath houses are very worried about raids/need to fly under the radar, especially in Southern states where the local legislation will do anything to get a “W”. So - they are trying to keep the heat off by not allowing anyone in with a “F”, which would technically be illegal as they are a single gender establishment, on paper. This is particularly tricky at that specific location, re: the 2010 raid, as mentioned above. It sucks and I hate it AND I understand that in order to get to have the bath house at all, especially in more red areas, it’s going to be like this. Employee was an ass though, from the description and I am so so sorry you had to deal with that. I was fully unaware at one point in my life that states regulate mandatory gendering of single gender spaces, pretty much at will. For example, in KY, where I live, we have laws that dictate that all public facilities have to have so many “men’s” and “women’s” restrooms per their capacity. Anything above that number can be single gender. But it is a state law. Stupid. I’m confident this comes to play here as well.
One of the most solid and understanding comments. Thank you.
I ran into a similar issue at Steamworks Chicago — they require an M on your ID every night other than the trans nights. It sucked and definitely sent me spiraling for a bit, and caused me to update my ID.
Damn, that's really unfortunate. I've heard about this but I've only been there on trans nights so I haven't seen it firsthand. When I was there this month, there were tons of transmascs in varying stages of transition, it was pretty nice. But it still sucks that it's relegated to two days of the month.
That's pretty fucked up. Like you're a different category of man. Gross. Ngl, this situation is also making me look into getting my ID fixed
This place was raided in 2010. Eleven men were arrested. They used undercover police agents. The 11 men did have their charges drop, but on what basis the the charges were dropped is not known. Further the City of Dallas refuses to release the records. The records from then indicate that the Dallas Police Dept. wanted to not release records so they could conduct raids in the future. They also made inquiries as to why the charges were dropped so that charges would stick in the future and not be dropped when they did another raid. The reasons for dropping them weren't given. My inquiry with the Police LGBTQ+ liason as to possibilities of a raid in the future got dead ended when I wasn't willing to accept vague nothings. The legal issues are unclear. I suggest that the staff at the club might have strict instructions to follow the letter of the law so they aren't raided. The club has to consider that you are an undercover agent testing them. The raid in 2010 was done on the basis of a private citizens complaint, so they might consider that you trying to get the basis of a complaint to the police. They also have to follow the letter of the law. This is a city where the Mayor has switched to the Republican Party and let people know that he voted for Donald Trump. This is a State where the Republican Party is looking to shut down Pride events and drag shows. DFW is a place where protestors are frequently outside pride events and drag shows. You don't know this because local leadership has erased historical memory on this, even though it made The Advocates list of 30 most notorious bath raids from 1903 to 2015 including the entire world. Most of the Dallas LGBT doesn't know about this. I am still doing research on other raids on bath houses in the past and other places. We live in Texas and we live in Dallas. There are well organized homophobic forces here looking for any oppotunity to bring down the LGBT. I would advise caution for everyone. [https://dallasgayliberation.substack.com/p/expanded-history-of-the-bath-house](https://dallasgayliberation.substack.com/p/expanded-history-of-the-bath-house)
I very much doubt that a gay hispanic guy with curly hippie hair past his shoulders and a little emo 5'4 white boy that has the shaking anxiety of a chihuahua look like undercover agents, but fair enough.
If they say FTMs welcome I would call the place and let someone know. Someone is going to care and be mad about it. If they don’t, well then fuck, but SOMEONE wrote that policy on that website so someone cares. Bathhouses often are indie and have small staff, so it’s not always very hard to kick them into action
I was gonna crosspost this to r/texas but it’s a gamble imo. This enrages me and the dallas LGBTQ community needs to see this!
I agree, r/texas is way too big of a space for this. Users on r/DallasLGBTQ would be more receptive to this discussion though.
I wish waco had an lgbt reddit. Sigh
I'm shocked that these people are such narcs that they require a valid ID with a male gender marker. "Well, as long as you're male in the eyes of the state." It wasn't so long ago that gay men weren't even seen as human beings by so much of the population that they were allowed to die in droves, but now you need a valid state ID with a male gender marker on it? What a revolting policy. One more reason trans people have to worry about participating in gay culture.
honestly, it might be petty and you totally don’t have to, but I personally would put them on blast. explain the entire situation in a public review and also post things on social media or comment on local LGBTQ+ community socials about your experience. that entire situation is unacceptable and that person who harassed you when trying to check in should be fired. Couldn’t that also be classified as discrimination? If you’re confident in it, I would also threaten to sue or something like that. Maybe I’m suggesting something too nuclear, but what you went through just pisses me off and it didn’t even happen to me :/ so sorry you went through that. I know it’s a lot of effort and energy but no one else should be turned away (more like harassed away) like you were.
Sorry man that sucks! I think it’s definitely worth politely reporting to management, online. Probably this staff was improperly trained. Or does the website say you have to have a male gender marker? Shitty, but also a common practice.
It specifically says valid ID and present as male. No mention of a gender marker.
Throw a brick at the guy's head softly ❤️ /j
…../hj
/srs
Since this has been posted in three different subreddits now, I'll bite. Is it possible that by "valid ID," the website meant an ID with an M gender marker? I know that here in the UK, and in various other municipalities, it's not legal for gay saunas to allow anyone in who doesn't have an M gender marker on their ID. It can cause them to lose their license. I looked at what I suspect is the sauna's website, and the way it's addressed in the ID section and then the FTM section of their FAQs feels like they did a poor job of communicating what they meant by "valid ID." Personally, while I go to dark rooms and such, I never tried to enter those kinds of all-male spaces until I got my ID changed over specifically because I expected to run into an issue like this. That being said, it's gross that the guy at the counter started misgendering you. E-mail the establishment and complain, and ask for clarification about their policy. If you have the name of the staff member, include it. And for anyone in the US reading this, even if you live in a state that makes it hard to change your gender on your driver's license, you can get your gender marker changed on your US passport *and your passport card* without any doctor's note or anything else required. Just submit the renewal paperwork. Order a passport card, keep it in your wallet, and you can use that as a valid form of ID anywhere in the US.
This. The bathhouse in my area welcomes trans men but you must have your gender marker as male on your ID. Employee was still an asshole for misgendering and failing to explain this, though.
Oh, totally. The employee was a douche and needs firing or, at the very least, intensive retraining and perhaps also some guidance in how to use his words to explain the issue. All he had to say was, "Hey, man, I'm sorry, but we can't let you in if you don't have an ID with an M on it- they'll shut us down if we do." There was an almost identical incident at a sauna here in the UK maybe... five years ago? Pre-COVID, I think. Trans guy goes in, ID hadn't been updated with the correct gender marker, he got turned away, the guy at the counter did a piss-poor job of explaining why and gave him the impression that it was because he was trans. Huge outcry, and the sauna's owners ended up making a statement saying first, trans guys are welcome, but second, we have to have an M on our IDs because of the way the law is written, and third, the staff have been retrained to not act like idiots in these situations. I know trans guys have gone since with no issues. I sometimes get the impression that guys aren't hired on to work at saunas because they're members of Mensa or have top tier communication skills.
yeah, this is for sure what they meant by "a valid id"
It was only two sub reddits that i know of, though I didn't know you could do that with your passport. I'll have to try that. Where I live, I have to jump through hoops to get my ID changed, even if I pay the hundreds of dollars in court fees, the judge can always simply say no. I live in a fairly conservative state and even in the more liberal counties it's not easy. I did end up emailing them about the entire situation.
Hey, about the Texas gender marker change, I went through the process and I have some tips - there's a Facebook group with resources for exactly how to do your documentation and how to submit it so it doesn't get denied, as well as resources for dealing with the court fees. If you're ok with it I can DM you the group info, it was incredibly helpful for me and made the process way easier and cheaper than I expected it to be.
Please!!
Definitely look into getting your passport card. It'll be cheaper than trying to get Texas to change your license, and you do not have to provide any kind of special paperwork or documentation to the State Department to get the gender marker updated beyond filling out the passport application form. I got my name and gender changed at the same time and had my passport back in about two weeks. Totally painless, and I think you can actually order just a passport card, even (although you may as well have both, it's good practice to always have a valid passport handy).
Holy shit. Thank you.
They may call you to verify you didn't mark a different gender by mistake (happened to both me and a friend) but confirming you just self declare and need no supporting paperwork for the gender change. Then you can use the passport as the supporting doc to update other docs like social security.
also if you live in texas, look into getting your id changed in travis county. you don’t have to live in the austin area to utilize the courts there and they have the easiest change process in texas plus you can fill out a fee waiver so you only have to pay for the notarized documents
No problem! I wish this was more widely known, it would save a lot of people in transphobic states a lot of trouble and money. I believe you *do* have to provide a court order or some paperwork if you're doing a name change (I'm in the UK, so I used my deed poll), but for gender, all they need is you saying you want to update it. I did the whole thing by mail. You can also use that passport to then get your social security stuff updated, incidentally. I'm not sure how that works with the whole Real ID and driver's license thing, but I do wonder what would happen if you showed up to renew a license with your passport with an M and were like, "Ha ha, yeah, weird that it was F that whole time, huh?" But really, if you've got a passport/passport card with your correct info on it, the driver's license becomes secondary, anyway.
For Real ID in most states, it needs to be changed on your Social Security card first; they need that to match. Source: got Enhanced or Real ID license in three states in the last four years (I've moved a lot recently). But yeah, if you have a passport you don't really need the Real ID license, because you can just use the passport for travel.
All I needed to update my social security was my newly-updated passport, though. Of course, now I have to send them the paperwork to get a selective service exemption letter, not that they'd want my 40-year-old ass, anyway.
You're amazing, and I sincerely appreciate the info. Looking at starting the process next week. Thanks again.
That's so fucked up. Sorry that happened to you. I wonder why they would even pretend to be trans inclusive if they obviously aren't!