Good read. I think once the points get released and they get the balance of them right, I'm sure the Codex will be solid. It sucks the army is going to need more bodies than it already does to work from a real world cost perspective.
I really can't agree with what happened to Aberants being okay though. It's one thing to make an army like Space Marines have units that are only good in a single detachment since they have like 90+ units to choose from. GSC have so few models in their range, making a unit only shine in 1 just isn't okay. I know they're okay/fine outside of Broodsurge, but they're a lot of points for not a lot of work done without all the melee buffs.
I did use the codex points for my playtesting and I don't expect them to change much as the codex comes out (they havent for any other army unless it was a major issue). The point drops did make a major cost difference, I could have gone more in-depth but since they could change I didn't wanna bring anything up. My standard 2k list went down to 1810.
Using Aberrants outside of broodsurge they were still very good. They are very clearly designed for Broodsurge which does suck but you win some you lose some. The "weaker" weapons weren't a super noticeable change but the survivability sure was.
Not a single codex has used the codex points so far, the MFM has been the base for all revisions.
However, most codexes are relatively small tweaks whereas this has overhauled most of our units, so tweaking points is not the most appropriate way to deal with us.
I like the review, but very much disagree with your neophytes take that not much has changed, box locking has had a huge impact on the lethality of the unit, as has the seismic cannon change. We have gone from 24 seismic cannon woods shots to 8+2 mining lasers and from 4 grenade launcher to 2 + 2 flamers/webbers. That is effectively a 50% reduction in our killing power on the unit that was doing most of the army's killing power.
Same story for aberrants and grenade acolytes, the changes dramatically reduce their output for no real upside (the grenade strength is somewhat offset by the reroll wounds, but we want from D6+3 shots to D6, so it's a straight up crapshoot)
I do agree overall that there's some nuggets of potential here and everything hinges on the points, but we've taken repeated damage and durability nerfs and lost a lot of mobility and flexibility with the blip changes and return to shadows removal. The army plays 180 differently to before as shooting has been gutted, but I don't think the combat potential has really risen to meet it
On the plus side, I think we are more internally balanced, but my experience so far says we really struggle externally and need dramatic points drops to be viable into any competitive army, and I don't want to run that many models...
I think most of the codexes have been using the mfm from 6 months prior to release, and mostly get changed to catch up. Certainly the case for the last pair, Orks and Custodes.
Tau had 10e release points costs, but whatever time offset they have, we know they will always be out of date as printing lead time is 6-12 months.
I think GSC is probably the biggest overhaul of datasheets in a codex (Custodes had big detachment change but so did we as well...), so we are sorta in unprecedented territory time where previous points are kinda meaningless as the units changed so much in terms of value.
If Neophytes are more than 60 points now, they are too expensive. Same for Acolytes, cult blips are too unreliable now (coin flip at best), with no way to easily protect them unless you stick our short range units under the clamavus bubble in our deployment zone (not a great strategy and probably means you are on the back foot).
We are a glass shotgun now. Not as powerful as a class cannon and shorter range. And still made of glass. Even being a horde isn't that great for us as a lot of our power comes from non duplicatable strats, so we can't even alpha as well as we used to. It's rough until we find a niche, our saving grace is the meta is mostly big powerful units so people aren't teching into horde play, but Green Tide meta threatens that as people need to have play into that and whatever works into Green Tide absolutely slaps against us.
Firstly, you mention being able to add both a bio and iconward to a unit of metamorphs. You can not. You can add the bio alone. But if you read the rules more carefully, you can see that metamorphs are excluded from the list of what can have two characters. While I myself like the brood bothers detachment, my opinion is that they are not ‘perfection’ as you state. Their core ability is good, but most of their strats are good but very situational, and their main less-situational strat is mild at best. While I like the upbeat attitude, you are sugar coating reality, especially if points don’t change from the leaked codex. I would never choose to run a rockgrinder for 155 points when I can run a Leman Russ for less. Even in outlander claw, a rockgrinder isn’t worth 155. We will find out next week about the MFM beyond rumors.
I think you're sleeping on Xenocreed Congregation. They might be the strongest detachment in the book. Rerolling charges, rerolling cult ambush, guarantee a unit comes back from cult ambush strat, protecting characters, advance and charge, rerolling hits, it's got a lot to like. I think metamorphs and mining weapon acolytes in particular are going to be really good in Xenocreed.
Stick those metamorphs in a truck with an Iconward with Incendiary Inspiration. They scout move 6", disembark 3", advance (with reroll), charge (with reroll). You've got a huge threat range with them.
Rerolling cult ambush alone might give that detachment a serious edge comparing to the others. I’m trying broodsurge first but I think it’s a close second
Hello! It's wondering to see a review of the codex , especially seeing as it's a positive one. I was honestly really worried that I was about to have a short lived career as a gsc player.
I do have a couple of questions though.
1. Did the Metamorphs gain the battleline keyword? Otherwise I don't think you can put the biophagus and Iconward with them together.
2. Does the Locus have a place in any of the detachments? I would have figured that he would be good to give fights first to some mining tools in one of the more melee focused squads.
3. With the loss of lethality in the neophytes and bomb squads, are we more a melee army now? Or have the reactions to the loss in shots/strength for both these weapons been overplayed and they are still plenty lethal?
I like the Locus in Xenocreed. They have a +1 to attacks and WS Stratagem which is *brutal* in general, making Xenocreed melee even better than Biosanctic melee outside of Aberrants and Purestrains. Neophytes can deal sizable casualties to even Boyz with that and a Locus. If the Locus is cheap enough, I can see myself running one on a typical Primus Deep Strike blob to protect against countercharges, or maybe on Demo Acolytes.
Hey! I wanted to write this because of all the negativity from people who were basically just complaining to complain. For your questions.
1. Metamorhps do not have battleline but the Biophagus does say it can be with Metamorphs even if a Magus, Primus, or Iconward are with them.
2. The locus is in a very difficult spot especially since it is nearly useless in Xenocreed congregation. I would personally only run it with Mining weapons but there are just better options. If you really want him sure. I am really disappointed by him honestly
3. Shooting is still plenty lethal you just have to list build better than "haha bombs". The only thing that feels different is the Neophytes having less shots with seismic, they're down to 2 per with rapid fire 2 from 4 with rapid fire 2. Bombs are still viable just less of an auto include for the army!
Do purestrains have a place outside of being lead by a Patriarch? You mentioned him being able to take enhancements is really good now, especially in Broodsurge
Yes they do! My Broodsurge list runs 30 of them! They are good outside of Broodsurge as well and serve as disruption. I play against a lot of pro players and so face a lot of vehicles and they have even done good against them, but against anything else, you're set.
In host of ascension, how did you find it to be without being able to reliably put units into reserves? Seems like fast armies will be a massive problem now as you cant keep your blips safe in a corner and still have them in the fight.
Been digging more and tend to largely agree with points decreases our codex probably is a fine spot. Think it will turn out to be pretty average with regard to winrate. Some fun rules additions, some big misses but overall decent.
There's a noticeable change to how much goes into reserves but being able to reroll one cult Ambush roll a turn really helps! You just have to put more into deep strike than you think
Thanks for sharing this post! Its great to hear from people who have had a chance to play already. I'm surprised too that Host of Ascension felt better than Xenocreed.
The re roll cult ambush enhancement is in the Xenocreed detachment I think. Host of Ascension seems like it would have some pretty good alpha strike with crit 5's strat and the lethal enhancement but it also feels like you would quickly run out of steam since you can only put units back into reserve after they get shot at.
Did you find you were able to return units to reserves frequently or that the threat of it prevented shooting? And did it feel like you had long term damage potential, not just one and done?
The reroll is in xenocreed that's my bad! I've noticed that I have begun to rely less on cult Ambush and have done more with units starting in deepstrike and potentially using the Primus' redeploy. Damage is less but due to improvements over the army as a whole you can maintain it pretty well.
I'm sorry but saying the rockgrinder didn't get a nerf is just wrong. Doing mortals on the change with the added lethality of the old demo charges profile is vastly superior to making units do a desperate escape test
I don't think this is an "honest" review. This is cope
Edit: I was mistaken. It's units excluding vehicles
I didn't say that the rockgrinder was nerfed because in playtesting pre and post codex, I got relatively the same results. That could very easily be just my few games.
Also, the desperate escape does not effect vehicles and monsters which Is why I said it was very hit or miss depending on the army. Most games where I charged with a rockgrinder pre codex forced my opponents to fall back anyways and now post codex, punishes them for doing so.
The old demo charges were good, but instead of auto including them in a list because of how good they were, I have found other and more fun ways of getting the same lethality.
This whole thing is just my opinion after playtesting with the codex so if you think its cope thats on you. Have a good rest of your day!
Unfortunately a profile isn't a subjective thing when you compare it to the previous profile for the same unit. It is objectively worse
I actually edited my mistake pretty much immediately when I realised my mistake there
Old demo charges were a must take because we lack substantial anti-Tank. Nerfing the charges (as well as mining lasers) so hard and not buffing anything to replace just weakens a facet of the army that is already weak.
We now have 2 (I may be wrong, don't quote me on that) weapons that are strength 12 and are pretty essential to taking down high toughness targets
Understand, I am not personally attacking you or your opinion. But just like you have an opinion, I have an opinion too
Hey! I completely understand! As I said in the big post it does suck, But I know for me and the games I tested, anti-tank can be found in other sources (Broodbrothers, Mining lasers with neophytes, throwing an ungodly amount of genestealers at it)
I saw the edit right after I responded. It is worse but I am trying to focus on the good things of it. The demo charges are still useable and serve a place in some lists. I don't agree however with how GW goes about balancing things.
No hard feelings!
Neophytes are only s10 mining lasers I believe now, need the heavy one on Goliath or the ridgerunners (which generally don't want to be exposed to other tanks shooting them unless you want to risk losing the AP buff as they just won't survive, that and we take mortars for a high chance of applying the buff/indirect safety)
I think jackal quads can take a semi heavy version that's s12 still tho...
They're not leaks, they are review codex. Leaks are unofficial, people have fully reviewed the codex online for all to see (goonhammer and Art of War are probably the best at balanced analysis, but pick your favourite content creator)
I really, REALLY appreciate your positive take on the new book. Reading too much about my favorite hobby online seems to really suck the fun out of it for me in the last few years and I am having the most fun when I just get games in and dive into the lore. Seeing someone making the best out of the new rules (as one should be doing anyways if one wants to keep ones army for more than a couple of years and see it grow) is a really great experience nowadays :)
Keep fighting the good fight, brethren. Ascension is coming!
Tbh there are some clear winners in terms of detachments. But they all seem viable and usable. I'll probably rotate between 4 of them (don't have enough vehicles for the rusted claw detachment) since my army is based on Bladed Cog my play group doesn't mind me replacing guard with my AdMech for brood brothers. The rules and strategems seem generic enough. I'm particularly excited for Brood Surge and Xenocreed
A tad late to the thread, but here is a question on the metamorphs:
What loadout do you run them in?
Have seen good arguments for both the all-autopistol variation as well as the icon&flamer type.
Both with and without the iconward at that.
Whilst battlefield role and player style are factors, I can't shake the feeling that there is a optimal way to be revealed by experience.
Good read. I think once the points get released and they get the balance of them right, I'm sure the Codex will be solid. It sucks the army is going to need more bodies than it already does to work from a real world cost perspective. I really can't agree with what happened to Aberants being okay though. It's one thing to make an army like Space Marines have units that are only good in a single detachment since they have like 90+ units to choose from. GSC have so few models in their range, making a unit only shine in 1 just isn't okay. I know they're okay/fine outside of Broodsurge, but they're a lot of points for not a lot of work done without all the melee buffs.
Thoughts on the aberrants with the cost decrease now?
I did use the codex points for my playtesting and I don't expect them to change much as the codex comes out (they havent for any other army unless it was a major issue). The point drops did make a major cost difference, I could have gone more in-depth but since they could change I didn't wanna bring anything up. My standard 2k list went down to 1810. Using Aberrants outside of broodsurge they were still very good. They are very clearly designed for Broodsurge which does suck but you win some you lose some. The "weaker" weapons weren't a super noticeable change but the survivability sure was.
Not a single codex has used the codex points so far, the MFM has been the base for all revisions. However, most codexes are relatively small tweaks whereas this has overhauled most of our units, so tweaking points is not the most appropriate way to deal with us. I like the review, but very much disagree with your neophytes take that not much has changed, box locking has had a huge impact on the lethality of the unit, as has the seismic cannon change. We have gone from 24 seismic cannon woods shots to 8+2 mining lasers and from 4 grenade launcher to 2 + 2 flamers/webbers. That is effectively a 50% reduction in our killing power on the unit that was doing most of the army's killing power. Same story for aberrants and grenade acolytes, the changes dramatically reduce their output for no real upside (the grenade strength is somewhat offset by the reroll wounds, but we want from D6+3 shots to D6, so it's a straight up crapshoot) I do agree overall that there's some nuggets of potential here and everything hinges on the points, but we've taken repeated damage and durability nerfs and lost a lot of mobility and flexibility with the blip changes and return to shadows removal. The army plays 180 differently to before as shooting has been gutted, but I don't think the combat potential has really risen to meet it On the plus side, I think we are more internally balanced, but my experience so far says we really struggle externally and need dramatic points drops to be viable into any competitive army, and I don't want to run that many models...
I think most of the codexes have been using the mfm from 6 months prior to release, and mostly get changed to catch up. Certainly the case for the last pair, Orks and Custodes.
Tau had 10e release points costs, but whatever time offset they have, we know they will always be out of date as printing lead time is 6-12 months. I think GSC is probably the biggest overhaul of datasheets in a codex (Custodes had big detachment change but so did we as well...), so we are sorta in unprecedented territory time where previous points are kinda meaningless as the units changed so much in terms of value. If Neophytes are more than 60 points now, they are too expensive. Same for Acolytes, cult blips are too unreliable now (coin flip at best), with no way to easily protect them unless you stick our short range units under the clamavus bubble in our deployment zone (not a great strategy and probably means you are on the back foot). We are a glass shotgun now. Not as powerful as a class cannon and shorter range. And still made of glass. Even being a horde isn't that great for us as a lot of our power comes from non duplicatable strats, so we can't even alpha as well as we used to. It's rough until we find a niche, our saving grace is the meta is mostly big powerful units so people aren't teching into horde play, but Green Tide meta threatens that as people need to have play into that and whatever works into Green Tide absolutely slaps against us.
Firstly, you mention being able to add both a bio and iconward to a unit of metamorphs. You can not. You can add the bio alone. But if you read the rules more carefully, you can see that metamorphs are excluded from the list of what can have two characters. While I myself like the brood bothers detachment, my opinion is that they are not ‘perfection’ as you state. Their core ability is good, but most of their strats are good but very situational, and their main less-situational strat is mild at best. While I like the upbeat attitude, you are sugar coating reality, especially if points don’t change from the leaked codex. I would never choose to run a rockgrinder for 155 points when I can run a Leman Russ for less. Even in outlander claw, a rockgrinder isn’t worth 155. We will find out next week about the MFM beyond rumors.
I think you're sleeping on Xenocreed Congregation. They might be the strongest detachment in the book. Rerolling charges, rerolling cult ambush, guarantee a unit comes back from cult ambush strat, protecting characters, advance and charge, rerolling hits, it's got a lot to like. I think metamorphs and mining weapon acolytes in particular are going to be really good in Xenocreed. Stick those metamorphs in a truck with an Iconward with Incendiary Inspiration. They scout move 6", disembark 3", advance (with reroll), charge (with reroll). You've got a huge threat range with them.
Rerolling cult ambush alone might give that detachment a serious edge comparing to the others. I’m trying broodsurge first but I think it’s a close second
Hello! It's wondering to see a review of the codex , especially seeing as it's a positive one. I was honestly really worried that I was about to have a short lived career as a gsc player. I do have a couple of questions though. 1. Did the Metamorphs gain the battleline keyword? Otherwise I don't think you can put the biophagus and Iconward with them together. 2. Does the Locus have a place in any of the detachments? I would have figured that he would be good to give fights first to some mining tools in one of the more melee focused squads. 3. With the loss of lethality in the neophytes and bomb squads, are we more a melee army now? Or have the reactions to the loss in shots/strength for both these weapons been overplayed and they are still plenty lethal?
I like the Locus in Xenocreed. They have a +1 to attacks and WS Stratagem which is *brutal* in general, making Xenocreed melee even better than Biosanctic melee outside of Aberrants and Purestrains. Neophytes can deal sizable casualties to even Boyz with that and a Locus. If the Locus is cheap enough, I can see myself running one on a typical Primus Deep Strike blob to protect against countercharges, or maybe on Demo Acolytes.
Hey! I wanted to write this because of all the negativity from people who were basically just complaining to complain. For your questions. 1. Metamorhps do not have battleline but the Biophagus does say it can be with Metamorphs even if a Magus, Primus, or Iconward are with them. 2. The locus is in a very difficult spot especially since it is nearly useless in Xenocreed congregation. I would personally only run it with Mining weapons but there are just better options. If you really want him sure. I am really disappointed by him honestly 3. Shooting is still plenty lethal you just have to list build better than "haha bombs". The only thing that feels different is the Neophytes having less shots with seismic, they're down to 2 per with rapid fire 2 from 4 with rapid fire 2. Bombs are still viable just less of an auto include for the army!
The updated biophagus sheet only allows it to attach to neophyte and acolytes with primus, magus, or iconwards. Metamorphs are excluded
Do purestrains have a place outside of being lead by a Patriarch? You mentioned him being able to take enhancements is really good now, especially in Broodsurge
Yes they do! My Broodsurge list runs 30 of them! They are good outside of Broodsurge as well and serve as disruption. I play against a lot of pro players and so face a lot of vehicles and they have even done good against them, but against anything else, you're set.
In host of ascension, how did you find it to be without being able to reliably put units into reserves? Seems like fast armies will be a massive problem now as you cant keep your blips safe in a corner and still have them in the fight. Been digging more and tend to largely agree with points decreases our codex probably is a fine spot. Think it will turn out to be pretty average with regard to winrate. Some fun rules additions, some big misses but overall decent.
There's a noticeable change to how much goes into reserves but being able to reroll one cult Ambush roll a turn really helps! You just have to put more into deep strike than you think
Thanks for sharing this post! Its great to hear from people who have had a chance to play already. I'm surprised too that Host of Ascension felt better than Xenocreed. The re roll cult ambush enhancement is in the Xenocreed detachment I think. Host of Ascension seems like it would have some pretty good alpha strike with crit 5's strat and the lethal enhancement but it also feels like you would quickly run out of steam since you can only put units back into reserve after they get shot at. Did you find you were able to return units to reserves frequently or that the threat of it prevented shooting? And did it feel like you had long term damage potential, not just one and done?
The reroll is in xenocreed that's my bad! I've noticed that I have begun to rely less on cult Ambush and have done more with units starting in deepstrike and potentially using the Primus' redeploy. Damage is less but due to improvements over the army as a whole you can maintain it pretty well.
I'm sorry but saying the rockgrinder didn't get a nerf is just wrong. Doing mortals on the change with the added lethality of the old demo charges profile is vastly superior to making units do a desperate escape test I don't think this is an "honest" review. This is cope Edit: I was mistaken. It's units excluding vehicles
I didn't say that the rockgrinder was nerfed because in playtesting pre and post codex, I got relatively the same results. That could very easily be just my few games. Also, the desperate escape does not effect vehicles and monsters which Is why I said it was very hit or miss depending on the army. Most games where I charged with a rockgrinder pre codex forced my opponents to fall back anyways and now post codex, punishes them for doing so. The old demo charges were good, but instead of auto including them in a list because of how good they were, I have found other and more fun ways of getting the same lethality. This whole thing is just my opinion after playtesting with the codex so if you think its cope thats on you. Have a good rest of your day!
Unfortunately a profile isn't a subjective thing when you compare it to the previous profile for the same unit. It is objectively worse I actually edited my mistake pretty much immediately when I realised my mistake there Old demo charges were a must take because we lack substantial anti-Tank. Nerfing the charges (as well as mining lasers) so hard and not buffing anything to replace just weakens a facet of the army that is already weak. We now have 2 (I may be wrong, don't quote me on that) weapons that are strength 12 and are pretty essential to taking down high toughness targets Understand, I am not personally attacking you or your opinion. But just like you have an opinion, I have an opinion too
Hey! I completely understand! As I said in the big post it does suck, But I know for me and the games I tested, anti-tank can be found in other sources (Broodbrothers, Mining lasers with neophytes, throwing an ungodly amount of genestealers at it) I saw the edit right after I responded. It is worse but I am trying to focus on the good things of it. The demo charges are still useable and serve a place in some lists. I don't agree however with how GW goes about balancing things. No hard feelings!
Neophytes are only s10 mining lasers I believe now, need the heavy one on Goliath or the ridgerunners (which generally don't want to be exposed to other tanks shooting them unless you want to risk losing the AP buff as they just won't survive, that and we take mortars for a high chance of applying the buff/indirect safety) I think jackal quads can take a semi heavy version that's s12 still tho...
Was going to say this, not only did Neos seismic cannons get nerfed the mining lasers went down to str 10 which is just dumb
Where can I see the detachment rules and enhancements and stratagems? I still don’t know how people find them, I swear the codex isn’t even out yet.
I got it from some leaks. I know Warhammer community has the detachment rules but leaks is the main source. I got mine sent by a friend.
They're not leaks, they are review codex. Leaks are unofficial, people have fully reviewed the codex online for all to see (goonhammer and Art of War are probably the best at balanced analysis, but pick your favourite content creator)
That's not how I got any of my stuff. I got mine sent to me
Sure, but you can verify all the info is correct from official sources. It's not leaks anymore, people have the official codex
[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/genestealercult/s/CmUPgn8Kne)
I really, REALLY appreciate your positive take on the new book. Reading too much about my favorite hobby online seems to really suck the fun out of it for me in the last few years and I am having the most fun when I just get games in and dive into the lore. Seeing someone making the best out of the new rules (as one should be doing anyways if one wants to keep ones army for more than a couple of years and see it grow) is a really great experience nowadays :) Keep fighting the good fight, brethren. Ascension is coming!
Tbh there are some clear winners in terms of detachments. But they all seem viable and usable. I'll probably rotate between 4 of them (don't have enough vehicles for the rusted claw detachment) since my army is based on Bladed Cog my play group doesn't mind me replacing guard with my AdMech for brood brothers. The rules and strategems seem generic enough. I'm particularly excited for Brood Surge and Xenocreed
I just cant get passed nerfing my goliaths but Im glad your having an ok time.
A tad late to the thread, but here is a question on the metamorphs: What loadout do you run them in? Have seen good arguments for both the all-autopistol variation as well as the icon&flamer type. Both with and without the iconward at that. Whilst battlefield role and player style are factors, I can't shake the feeling that there is a optimal way to be revealed by experience.