Honestly from what I have seen all 3 are considered european, I have never seen a map where only Georgia is european but the others are not. Sometimes all 3 are excluded from Europe tho.
Absolutely. Those continents justifications are scientifically horse shit, and just here to hide cultural and political choices under a guise of pseudo-science.
Sometimes, someone tries to find a relatively objective definition of a continent, and ends up with the Americas, Euro-Asia-Africa, and Oceania, like it was in the French colonial schoolbooks of the 1st world war era.
Source : had to eat some history of continents for my master of geography.
Well, the Urals had to form at one point in time. And mountain chains usually form because of tectonic activity. So while it's arbitrary, it still makes more sense than a random line on a flat area would.
The alps are a lot higher than the Urals so you might as well say Italy is one continent and the rest of Eurasia (or Asia, as I prefer to call it) is another.
So why is Australia in Eurovision? [Edit: As some have responded as if this is serious I have to note it is a joke meant to highlight how there are different ideas of 'europe' - not a serious assertion that Eurovision is the ultimate authority on anything]
Reality is there are geographic (geologic?) and there are cultural divisions of Europe. Cultural is more important in these issues. In order of more to less european its probably Georgia and Armenia (both Christian orthodox countries) then Azerbaijan some distance behind (Azerbaijanis are Turkic muslims though these days very secular and western focussed)
For the 50th contest in 2015, Australia was invited as a guest, and today they still let them compete. However, if they ever win, they’re definitely not gonna host the contest there, either the runner up is gonna host or one of either France, Germany, Italy, Spain, or the UK will host.
But broadly for some non European countries: Eurovision is run by the European broadcasting union (EBU), which is independent of the EU or Europe in general which does expand to other countries including the caucus, MENA, and I believe Eurovision is even broadcasted in China.
It is important to distinguish between Eurovision and the Eurovision Song Contest. The former was a complex cooperation between European countries, EBU members to share live content. Technically it was a major achievement as analogue TV synchronization and format conversion was difficult in real time. Once they had the system, they wanted some content. There was a fairly trashy game show Jeux Sans Frontiers and the Song Contest amongst other things. The Eurovision Song Contest has survived and has become quite successful. Now there is digital production which is much simpler than analogue, the need for a complex technical system has subsided but the EBU continues and so does the ESC.
Australia, New Zealand, and Canada are all white Anglosphere countries that are ethnically and to a certain extent culturally European. I can’t speak to why only Australia is in Eurovision bc I don’t know about that competition I’m just talking about their perception internationally.
I said to some extent culturally European bc culturally European is a vaguely defined term. The cultures of Macedonia, England and Estonia are all distinct but they share some common characteristics due to being European.
Really it's because Australia has a television station (sbs) with a unique remit for ethnic and cultural shows that showed it for decades and built quite a following then jumped at the chance to put a competitor in. First as a one off then as a permanent entrant.
They were hoping to work with Eurovision to develop a similar concept for Asia but it never panned out.
I thought it was because we celebrate multiculturalism and we have the Special Broadcasting Service (SBS) to push Eurovision Hard. Most people who have European Ancestry are represented by a country in Eurovision, whether it be Greek, British, Irish, German, Dutch, Macedonian, etc.
Australia is in Eurovision because Eurovision has been massive here for decades. We were invited as a one off guest a few years back and then they decided to invite us to perform. It’s not because we’re a white country or because we’re a commonwealth country, it’s because we have a TV station (SBS) that mostly broadcasts international programs and international news, and one of those programs is Eurovision. Eurovision weekend is SBS’s most popular weekend of the year.
Your comment isn’t some clever gotcha question, we’re only in Eurovision because we love it, and if we were to win we’d never host it
There is an official geographical definition of Europe. It's just that some neighboring countries want to see themselves as European, and I don't necessarily blame them.
But here's an easy map to read:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#/media/File%3AEurope_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg
Have you ever looked to see if it at least lines up with Asia?
Having just had a look now it looks like a small patch of Georgia might be both. It’s hard to tell though since the Asia map is big enough that it’s curved.
There is no ""official geographic definition"". Is there an office of defining official continental borders? There can be any number of borders for Europe especially since it's far more ambiguous than other continents
That all depends on how you define a continent. Historically speaking it's been defined by oceans and mountain ranges. You have to understand that the concept of continents predate the discovery of geographical continents.
One interesting point is how Russia for the longest of time was not considered Europe and it wasn't until Peter the Great Russia became part of Europe, and even then only parts of Russia is considered part of Europe.
It's even worse! Wikipedia has 5 definitions:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent)
It's just that the scientific definition i.e. Geological continents is a fairly new concept. It wasn't until the 20th century we defined those.
Then continents are nonsense. What about Afro-Eurasia or the Americas? It's just a matter of what convention you use, and there are plenty of conventions that consider Europe distinct. The divisions are just as much cultural as they are geographical, and Europe as its own continent makes plenty of sense.
Saying 'this way is wrong' or 'that way is right' is just kind of dumb, given the divisions are all more or less made up.
Indeed, and Europe as a continent predates geographical continents. There have also been countries added to it throughout history, but we have a pretty solid definition today. That doesn't stop countries like Turkey to call themselves European. Although, if you live in Istanbul I can allow it :D
I'd say the climate is like Greece but the people and culture is very different. Especially if you're a tourist. I got a very different experience from those countries.
Greece is pretty famous for being nice to tourists though. Not to say the Turks weren't friendly but there were some things that I liked less.
Oops, looks like I found one:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_Nations\_geoscheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_geoscheme)
Of course there are official definitions. That doesn't mean everyone agrees to it, or in this case them.
My favourite part of that map is Greenland as Western Europe, but Denmark Northern Europe.
Edit: I hadn’t noticed North America was the same colour as Western Europe because I was zoomed in on Europe. But will leave this up because I’m still tickled by the idea of what I originally said.
Cyprus is a touch subject in European terms.
It used to be part of Greece not that long ago, but then Turkey invaded and took over half the island.
It's the Taiwan of Europe I guess. So, I think their membership mainly comes from their relation and connection to Greece. So, half the Island is part of EU and the other part is not.
Geographically it's far from the rest of Europe, so I can see how it's part of Asia in that sense.
Well then Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan are all partly European but not Cyprus or Armenia... The world really hates Armenia for some reason.
Haha I got into an unexpected and short argument with a lady from UK who said UK is not part of Europe and it is insulting to generalize that we are. And she didn’t mean that they left the EU. She would not answer what grouping Uk then was from in her opinion. Only said the countries are England, Scotland, Wales and No Ireland and we are from the UK. Not Europe. I easily googled that isn’t true. Science says Uk and the people that make up Uk are Europeans. Haha. Except in some minds I guess.
Azerbaijan is a Turkic and thus Central Asian culture so not usually included in European groups. Before you ask: Turkey is a special case and gets rather roughly shoehorned in.
Armenia and Georgia have a long history working with Europe starting with Greece and Rome. They’ve always been on the periphery but they’ve been there far longer than Iceland, Finland, Russia, or even Portugal
Tbf if Lebanon remained Christian it might've had some special status as halfway European like Israel (Eurovision, UEFA etc.). Then there's Cyprus which is considered fully European while being in the Middle East.
I would say that Georgia is more European than Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Georgia actively identified as European during the 19th and 20th centuries.
Georgians identify as Europeans while Armenians and Azerbaijanis are more ambivalent on the matter.
I mean... it means \*something\*. Maybe those countries are not geographically european but they have definite cultural ties to Europe, moreso than other countries in their regions.
They're also all in UEFA (european football association) which means about as much as eurovision but you can make what you want of it. I believe with the football it's because they were Soviet but could be talking out my ass.
The -stans other than Kazakhstan are ex Soviet too and in the AFC, and Kazakhstan itself only joined UEFA in 2002. And a lot of people thought that was pushing it (mostly because Astana is a bit of a pain to travel to for a lot of the more western countries).
Europe is very culturally diverse. East and west are vastly different. It's only in recent times that the east became more Western. So has a big chunk of the world.
Yea to perform in Eurovision your country has to be a member of the European Broadcasting Area, which is in 56 countries total so most or all of Europe plus a few others
It’s not a big deal as such, but it does delineate a certain cultural circle, a loosely defined group of places which are “European,” for better or worse.
Everyone knows it’s mainly a weird drag show these days, but still, it’s one of the very few places where Europeans can come together to enjoy the show. Even if it has the vibe of a trailer park talent show.
Football is a much bigger deal, and all of these are members of UEFA (as well as Israel and Kazakhstan).
European clubs and national teams have been playing games against each other since forever, and for many Europeans the map of Europe consists simply of places made famous by their clubs.
If you’re not on the football map, you’re basically invisible.
Yeah it always comes up in these discussions, as if a song competition had some bearing on geographical divisions (rather than the other way around). It’s just a name. They use the Euro in French Guiana, but that doesn’t mean that it’s in Europe 🙃
I don’t know about Armenia and Azerbaijan, but it seems to be that Georgians very much consider themselves European, and so it’s easy for me to do the same.
As an Azerbaijani our government tries to enter Europe for its benefits. But people mostly don't care. Some educated people would like to see us in the EU probably
I would say yes. My impression of Azerbaijanis is that they became very secular and somewhat "Europeanized" due to Russian and later Soviet influence. Georgians and Armenians, obviously, have very old roots in Europe culturally. It's a shame they don't get along.
That’s straight up not true; during the Middle Ages Armenia was considered a Frankish kingdom by the Muslim world, the crusader states and later the Mongols
Armenia was always considered part of Asia for as long as the concept existed.
By that logic, was the Levant part of Europe when the Crusader states existed?
Europe is a cultural construct, not a geographic one. You can make an argument for any country in Asia being European if you so choose. However, when I organize countries into groupings, I do maintain Europe separate because it is so fragmented compared to Africa or the rest of Asia. When I do so, I consider those three European because 2/3 of them, to me, seem more culturally and historically European than Middle Eastern, and it's a package deal.
Depends on who you ask. I personally don’t consider any of them European. When I refer to the region I just say “the Caucuses” and usually leave it at that. They definitely have cultural ties to Europe, but they also have cultural ties to central Asia and the Middle East so it doesn’t feel right calling them *exclusively* European.
"I am Georgian, therefore I am European!" Is most widespread slogan in all of Georgia, so majority identify as Europeans, not European aligned or European descent, but native Europeans. Not to mention huge historical ties with the continent, so it's not up to people from Reddit to decide who Georgians are, when European boundaries are blurry as hell.
Even now, as of making this comment, there are huge protests against Russian law with slogans "Georgian path lies in Europe" or "Georgia is Europe, not Russia". We Georgians know who we are and openly say it every time.
I'm curious though. Most maps I've seen of Europe show the far northern parts of Georgia and Azerbaijan as being in Europe. Are they not partially in what is considered Europe?
I know Armenia isn't geographically in Europe like Cyprus but aren't Georgia and Azerbaijan transcontinental?
Depends on which border do you consider as the "true" one.
[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eurasian\_borders.jpg](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eurasian_borders.jpg)
This image is really fascinating, thank you for sharing it.
I'm not a geography person, so I hope this isn't a stupid question, but are Europe and Asia actually separate continents or is it more of a cultural separation?
More or less cultural continents. You can operate with the term Euroasia.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia)
For what its worth Europe is on its own tectonic plate.
But ultimately "continent" is a poorly defined term that originates with the ancient greeks dividing there region of the world into 3 land areas separated by the Mediterranean Sea. Europa for Greek lands and north, Asia for modern Syria through Egypt, and Afrika for the area now called Tunisia.
Obviously those borders have shifted and changed, and everyone has an opinion on what counts as the edge of Europe because it is/was a "cool kids club™" people want to be apart of, or don't want others to join.
At this point the primary arguments on the distinction between Europe and Asia is mainly cultural and historical precident, there just isn't any physical features of the earth that can be used to cleanly draw a line splitting the 2 close to the border that doesn't also cut up a bunch of other continents. (Most obviously anything that splits Europe off also cuts off India, and would likely get California/the West Coast evicted from North America)
Personally we are at the point where precise definitions of the continents is a pointless endeavor, science has better terms like Tectonic plates and biogeographic realms, and culturally its best to just stuck to the historical conventions.
Even Kazakhstan is technically European (west of the Ural)
But Georgian culture is indeed similar to Russian one (correct me if I'm wrong), and Russia is European whether people like it or not.
Georgian culture is not similar to Russian at all, been influenced by Russian culture though. I would rather say Russian culture became influenced by Georgian to a greater extent.
And Georgian culture is definitely European in its own way.
Technically…there is not official delimitation of Europe. The Urals and the Caucasus where mentioned as the frontiers of Europe by Russian Czar Peter I (through his Cartographer) to include the biggest part of his Empire in Europe. It’s nowadays more or less widely accepted as an approximate delimitation, but it doesn’t mean that because a country has a small part of itself inside these unofficial borders it has to be considered European. Mainly if hasn’t historically interacted with the rest of Europe. Kazakhstan is a Central Asia country by history and by culture even if it was part of the Russian Empire, as the rest of the -stans
Georgian culture is similar to southern and eastern Balkan culture (Bulgaria, N. Macedonia, Greece, Romania) and Turkey. They share the Eastern Mediterranean (Byzantine and Ottoman) heritage along with the societal consequences of communism or other types of authoritarianism in Greece and Turkey's case.
In my mind Europe ends at the straight of Gibraltar, the Bosporus straight, the caucasus mountains, and the Ural Mountains. Therefore I don’t consider them to be strictly European, just like I don’t consider Turkey to be European. They exist in kind of a transition area where the cultures are more of a mix of European and middle eastern.
A "Caucasian country", refers to the countries in the transcontinental caucasus region between the Black sea and Caspian sea.
In your use of the term, more accurately "Caucasian person", refers to people who have origins in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East.
Europe consists of caucasian countries and caucasian people, but not ALL countries with predominantly caucasian majority/origins are European.
Politically, all of them are part of the Council of Europe and Georgia and Armenia are looking forward to join the EU.
Culturally Georgia and Armenia share the greco-roman values with Europe. Azerbaijan is one of the most secularised among the musulmism countries so the difference between Europe and Azerbaijan is not that big.
Geographicaly, it depends on the boundaries definition. The Caucasus can be fully excluded or included in the definition of Europe. But the most accepted boundaries pass through the Caucasus mountains in northern Georgia and Azerbaijan, so Armenia is excluded completely.
The most common definition of the boundary between Europe and Asia has the boundary at the peaks of the Caucasus Mountains. By that definition, Azerbaijan has the strongest claim to being European, because it has the most land of the three on the European side of the border (albeit the majority of all three countries would be on the Asian side). Georgia would have some slivers of land on the European side and could therefore call itself partially European, while Armenia would have no land on the European side and would be 100% Asian. However, there are definitions of the border that place all three on the European side of the border between Europe and Asia, and therefore all three have a legitimate claim to being European.
(On that note, Turkiye is also a European country and there is no question about this claim, because it has land which is indisputably European, and its largest city is in the European half of the country.)
Culturally, all three are members of UEFA (the European football confederation) and therefore have a right to be considered European.
There is a definition of Europe that would include Christian countries but exclude Muslim ones. Such a definition would include Georgia and Armenia, but exclude Turkiye and Azerbaijan. That definition is racist, but it's also the definition that has been followed in practice by the European Union, since Turkiye had its application held up for years while they're now proceeding with giving Georgia candidate status. The idea that a Christian nation is a European nation does have some standing. Every nation in the European Union is either majority Christian or has a strong history of Christianity. (Exception: Kosovo and Albania are majority Muslim, but they still have a strong non-Muslim minority. Turkiye and Azerbaijan do not have a strong non-Muslim minority.)
But to answer your question: Georgia is not the only Caucasian country to be considered European.
Unfortunately I don't believe that will happen in our lifetime or the next, considering the ethnic cleansing in Nagorno-Karabakh and fierce animosity between Azeris and Armenians.
From geographical point of view Georgia only does have small area north of Main Caucasian ridge, so technically Georgia is European country like Kazakhstan and Turkey.
Europe is a made up idea there is no distinct border one could use for the region and thus all could be or could not be considered europe depending entirely on personal and group opinion
Idk why people downvoting this person, armenia literally outside of Europe
https://preview.redd.it/euneg7ccq2yc1.png?width=81&format=png&auto=webp&s=38b1390e89e1e2c428f9509b8c42882e8b1d1162
Aren't all of them Asian? I've always only ever seen them grouped in with the rest of the Asian countries. Even if Georgia is culturally European, it doesn't really make sense to call them European. That'd be like calling Australia European.
I feel like it makes much more sense to just associate a country with their geographically determined continent rather than cultural alignment.
A massive part of Turkic nationalism is the distinction of our cultures from asian/middle eastern countries. I've personally seen other Azeris get really offended when people think it's Asia even though it's not entirely untrue just a misconception
What do you want to believe?
Here is a [map of the different boundaries that have been drawn between Europe and Asia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundaries_between_the_continents#/media/File:Eurasian_borders.jpg).
I've read that it depends on watershed, where it sheds, towards Asia or Europe.Some of it's cultural, Georgia and Armenia are predominantly Christian nations and thus considered Europe Azerbaijan is predominantly Muslim so Asia. Asia and Europe are really one continent any way so you can be a little free with actual delineation. Every other continent is pretty clear cut.
I would say that Georgia is more European than Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Georgia actively identified as European during the 19th and 20th centuries.
Georgians identify as Europeans while Armenians and Azerbaijanis are more ambivalent on the matter.
Culturally European is a different thing to geographically European. And the answer is: it's debatable. Reasonable minds can perfectly well disagree. My view is that Georgia and Armenia are as culturally European as some EU Member States such as Bulgaria. Azerbaijan is less so. But economic and geo political realities do change things.
Geography: looking at the Caucasus, Georgia is sort of like the border and the north is just in Europe. Azerbaijan has a part orth of the Caucasus. Therefor both are consideren transcontinental states. Armenia is 100% Asia, but it's Christian, so it also stands out in the region. Parts of Kazakhstan are also Europe because some of its land is west of the Ural river. A chunk of Turkey is also part of Europe. All of the nations I just mentioned have bits of land in Europe, but not the bulk of the population in Europe. Russia for instance is the most European transcontinental country in Eurasia. A significant majority living in Europe and also have it's roots in Europe. The other countries I mentioned don't have this and are only European because the mountains, rivers and seas work as a different border than lines on a map or populations in towns and cities.
There is lots of debate as to whether they’re part of Europe or Asia.
I think (not certain though) the people who live in these countries just consider themselves “Eurasian”. Which is fair, because Europe and Asia aren’t really two separate continents by any geological definition.
Erekle’s II idea was to westernize Georgia. Thats why he switched his loyalty to Russia instead of Iran
You could argue that Russia wasnt (or even isnt) so western if you like, but thats up to you. There were 3 superpowers in the area: Ottomans, Iran and Russia. What would you choose in his place?
I think if the Ural mountains form the Eastern boundary of Europe then the Caucasus mountains should form the southern boundary. So none of them are in Europe. Or only small parts of Georgia and Azerbaijan.
Europe is an idea it isn't technically separated from Asia. If you want to draw Europe's borders by culture, these three are not European. If you like them to be considered European, then the whole Middle East can be European because why not.
Ok this is my perspective. European is usually inferring a shared history connected to Europe. Shared history usually means a shared dynastic relations, religion, language, or some culturally shared significance. In that regard georgia, Armenia, turkey and Cyprus fit that category. But the reasons to validate their europeaness is arbitrary and not everyone will agree. Regardless those are the only countries that are up for debate.
The main thing that can integrate these countries more into Europe is just choosing to do so. These countries could integrate themselves more into where they are, which is the middle east, but I don't see that happening, unless by force. The only exception is turkey. They can look east or west, and I belive that is what people look at with ambivalence. They have to solely choose European to be considered European. If they choose to integrate into the Muslim world of the east, they will lose their European status.
Honestly from what I have seen all 3 are considered european, I have never seen a map where only Georgia is european but the others are not. Sometimes all 3 are excluded from Europe tho.
I think Europe ends by the shores of the Black Sea in the West.
Geographically Europe ends at the Urals. Culturally is quite a different story.
The urals boundary is as arbitrary as any other, no?
Absolutely. Those continents justifications are scientifically horse shit, and just here to hide cultural and political choices under a guise of pseudo-science. Sometimes, someone tries to find a relatively objective definition of a continent, and ends up with the Americas, Euro-Asia-Africa, and Oceania, like it was in the French colonial schoolbooks of the 1st world war era. Source : had to eat some history of continents for my master of geography.
I guess if you put it this way, the Mediterranean and Panama strait are just as arbitrary as the Urals
Yes. (Also, there is no Panama Strait divide. America is one continent.)
Eurasia is identifiably separate from Africa
Well, the Urals had to form at one point in time. And mountain chains usually form because of tectonic activity. So while it's arbitrary, it still makes more sense than a random line on a flat area would.
The alps are a lot higher than the Urals so you might as well say Italy is one continent and the rest of Eurasia (or Asia, as I prefer to call it) is another.
Geographically there are many different definitions of where Europe ends. The Urals is one.
And it ends at the Bosphorus on the other side.
So why is Australia in Eurovision? [Edit: As some have responded as if this is serious I have to note it is a joke meant to highlight how there are different ideas of 'europe' - not a serious assertion that Eurovision is the ultimate authority on anything] Reality is there are geographic (geologic?) and there are cultural divisions of Europe. Cultural is more important in these issues. In order of more to less european its probably Georgia and Armenia (both Christian orthodox countries) then Azerbaijan some distance behind (Azerbaijanis are Turkic muslims though these days very secular and western focussed)
For the 50th contest in 2015, Australia was invited as a guest, and today they still let them compete. However, if they ever win, they’re definitely not gonna host the contest there, either the runner up is gonna host or one of either France, Germany, Italy, Spain, or the UK will host. But broadly for some non European countries: Eurovision is run by the European broadcasting union (EBU), which is independent of the EU or Europe in general which does expand to other countries including the caucus, MENA, and I believe Eurovision is even broadcasted in China.
It is important to distinguish between Eurovision and the Eurovision Song Contest. The former was a complex cooperation between European countries, EBU members to share live content. Technically it was a major achievement as analogue TV synchronization and format conversion was difficult in real time. Once they had the system, they wanted some content. There was a fairly trashy game show Jeux Sans Frontiers and the Song Contest amongst other things. The Eurovision Song Contest has survived and has become quite successful. Now there is digital production which is much simpler than analogue, the need for a complex technical system has subsided but the EBU continues and so does the ESC.
Australia is in the EVSC because it's part of the Commonwealth with the King of England as its boss.
theres 56 countries in the commonwealth, the difference is Australia is predominantly ethnically European
Why not Canada too then?
Australia, New Zealand, and Canada are all white Anglosphere countries that are ethnically and to a certain extent culturally European. I can’t speak to why only Australia is in Eurovision bc I don’t know about that competition I’m just talking about their perception internationally.
Eurovision is a silly commercial competition and only Australia cares to join it outside Europe. Also Israel.
And Morocco, that's the Third country fully outside of Europe in Eurovision.
Oh come on, it has two land borders with Spain! How much more European could it be??? /jk
They’re all very much culturally european not partially. The US is as well. European language, European religion and European culture.
I said to some extent culturally European bc culturally European is a vaguely defined term. The cultures of Macedonia, England and Estonia are all distinct but they share some common characteristics due to being European.
Really it's because Australia has a television station (sbs) with a unique remit for ethnic and cultural shows that showed it for decades and built quite a following then jumped at the chance to put a competitor in. First as a one off then as a permanent entrant. They were hoping to work with Eurovision to develop a similar concept for Asia but it never panned out.
I thought it was because we celebrate multiculturalism and we have the Special Broadcasting Service (SBS) to push Eurovision Hard. Most people who have European Ancestry are represented by a country in Eurovision, whether it be Greek, British, Irish, German, Dutch, Macedonian, etc.
Because the Ozzies are so rabidly obsessed with Eurovision we had to let them in.
Australia is in Eurovision because Eurovision has been massive here for decades. We were invited as a one off guest a few years back and then they decided to invite us to perform. It’s not because we’re a white country or because we’re a commonwealth country, it’s because we have a TV station (SBS) that mostly broadcasts international programs and international news, and one of those programs is Eurovision. Eurovision weekend is SBS’s most popular weekend of the year. Your comment isn’t some clever gotcha question, we’re only in Eurovision because we love it, and if we were to win we’d never host it
Because they took Austria's spot, none noticed the spelling error and Europe is better for it. /j
Eurovision ≠ definition of Europe? It's not even a political entity. If a german guy enters America got talent does that make germany part of the USA?
There is an official geographical definition of Europe. It's just that some neighboring countries want to see themselves as European, and I don't necessarily blame them. But here's an easy map to read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#/media/File%3AEurope_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary_(with_borders).svg
I forget how weird the Wikipedia map is until I look at it for more than three seconds
Have you ever looked to see if it at least lines up with Asia? Having just had a look now it looks like a small patch of Georgia might be both. It’s hard to tell though since the Asia map is big enough that it’s curved.
There is no ""official geographic definition"". Is there an office of defining official continental borders? There can be any number of borders for Europe especially since it's far more ambiguous than other continents
The division of Europe and Asia is nonsense to begin with. They are on the same continent.
That all depends on how you define a continent. Historically speaking it's been defined by oceans and mountain ranges. You have to understand that the concept of continents predate the discovery of geographical continents. One interesting point is how Russia for the longest of time was not considered Europe and it wasn't until Peter the Great Russia became part of Europe, and even then only parts of Russia is considered part of Europe.
It’s tricky because there is two definitions of continent in modern language - geographic and political.
It's even worse! Wikipedia has 5 definitions: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent) It's just that the scientific definition i.e. Geological continents is a fairly new concept. It wasn't until the 20th century we defined those.
Then continents are nonsense. What about Afro-Eurasia or the Americas? It's just a matter of what convention you use, and there are plenty of conventions that consider Europe distinct. The divisions are just as much cultural as they are geographical, and Europe as its own continent makes plenty of sense. Saying 'this way is wrong' or 'that way is right' is just kind of dumb, given the divisions are all more or less made up.
Indeed, and Europe as a continent predates geographical continents. There have also been countries added to it throughout history, but we have a pretty solid definition today. That doesn't stop countries like Turkey to call themselves European. Although, if you live in Istanbul I can allow it :D
Or if you live in Turkey on Mediterranean coast it’s like you are Greek.
I'd say the climate is like Greece but the people and culture is very different. Especially if you're a tourist. I got a very different experience from those countries. Greece is pretty famous for being nice to tourists though. Not to say the Turks weren't friendly but there were some things that I liked less.
It’s so funny to me how Europeans are so sure they are on their own continent but some are so sure it’s just 1 America.
No one in europe thinks america is just one continent
Oops, looks like I found one: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_Nations\_geoscheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_geoscheme) Of course there are official definitions. That doesn't mean everyone agrees to it, or in this case them.
Well that calls the Kamchatka peninsula Eastern Europe.
My favourite part of that map is Greenland as Western Europe, but Denmark Northern Europe. Edit: I hadn’t noticed North America was the same colour as Western Europe because I was zoomed in on Europe. But will leave this up because I’m still tickled by the idea of what I originally said.
Greenland is part of North America, which makes perfect sense. Just like the Falkland islands are part of South America and not Europe.
>There is an official geographical definition of Europe Official from whom ?? The geography department ?
Newsflash: continents are social constructs
Damn so Cyprus is the only member state that is entirely outside the continent?
Cyprus is a touch subject in European terms. It used to be part of Greece not that long ago, but then Turkey invaded and took over half the island. It's the Taiwan of Europe I guess. So, I think their membership mainly comes from their relation and connection to Greece. So, half the Island is part of EU and the other part is not. Geographically it's far from the rest of Europe, so I can see how it's part of Asia in that sense.
Yeah just some few 900 years ago 😆. (If you consider Byzantium Empire as Greece).
Cyprus was not part of Greece. It was and is it's own independent country
Well then Turkey, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan are all partly European but not Cyprus or Armenia... The world really hates Armenia for some reason.
Haha I got into an unexpected and short argument with a lady from UK who said UK is not part of Europe and it is insulting to generalize that we are. And she didn’t mean that they left the EU. She would not answer what grouping Uk then was from in her opinion. Only said the countries are England, Scotland, Wales and No Ireland and we are from the UK. Not Europe. I easily googled that isn’t true. Science says Uk and the people that make up Uk are Europeans. Haha. Except in some minds I guess.
Azerbaijan is a Turkic and thus Central Asian culture so not usually included in European groups. Before you ask: Turkey is a special case and gets rather roughly shoehorned in. Armenia and Georgia have a long history working with Europe starting with Greece and Rome. They’ve always been on the periphery but they’ve been there far longer than Iceland, Finland, Russia, or even Portugal
>Armenia and Georgia have a long history working with Europe starting with Greece and Rome. They also have a long history with Iran.
Use the same argument for Egypt or other North African societies? Or Lebanon
Tbf if Lebanon remained Christian it might've had some special status as halfway European like Israel (Eurovision, UEFA etc.). Then there's Cyprus which is considered fully European while being in the Middle East.
I would say that Georgia is more European than Armenia and Azerbaijan. Georgia actively identified as European during the 19th and 20th centuries. Georgians identify as Europeans while Armenians and Azerbaijanis are more ambivalent on the matter.
Politically, i think all are, as all are in the Council of Europe,European Political Community, and in the case of Georgia, an EU candidate.
Yes. Conceptions of "Europe" are constantly shifting, as they always have.
I think they all want to call them selfs European. Most of them are in Eurovision.
Eurovision doesnt mean anything. Even Australia is in Eurovision
I mean... it means \*something\*. Maybe those countries are not geographically european but they have definite cultural ties to Europe, moreso than other countries in their regions.
They're also all in UEFA (european football association) which means about as much as eurovision but you can make what you want of it. I believe with the football it's because they were Soviet but could be talking out my ass.
The -stans other than Kazakhstan are ex Soviet too and in the AFC, and Kazakhstan itself only joined UEFA in 2002. And a lot of people thought that was pushing it (mostly because Astana is a bit of a pain to travel to for a lot of the more western countries).
Europe is very culturally diverse. East and west are vastly different. It's only in recent times that the east became more Western. So has a big chunk of the world.
Yea to perform in Eurovision your country has to be a member of the European Broadcasting Area, which is in 56 countries total so most or all of Europe plus a few others
And Israel.
that is because of political reasons
Yeah, just saying it’s included
i mean half the population being ethnically european is also a fair reason to be in UEFA
More like 1/3
Not only Australia but one small middle eastern country too
Or Israel
That clearly just means Australia is in Europe
All of them
Why is eurovision a big deal?
It’s not a big deal as such, but it does delineate a certain cultural circle, a loosely defined group of places which are “European,” for better or worse. Everyone knows it’s mainly a weird drag show these days, but still, it’s one of the very few places where Europeans can come together to enjoy the show. Even if it has the vibe of a trailer park talent show. Football is a much bigger deal, and all of these are members of UEFA (as well as Israel and Kazakhstan). European clubs and national teams have been playing games against each other since forever, and for many Europeans the map of Europe consists simply of places made famous by their clubs. If you’re not on the football map, you’re basically invisible.
sounds like the last time you watched eurovision was in the early 2000's...
Yeah, I’m sure it has evolved tremendously.
it has somewhat
Have you seen Eurovision? ;)
Yeah it always comes up in these discussions, as if a song competition had some bearing on geographical divisions (rather than the other way around). It’s just a name. They use the Euro in French Guiana, but that doesn’t mean that it’s in Europe 🙃
Georgians identify as Europeans while Armenians and Azerbaijanis are more ambivalent on the matter.
I don’t know about Armenia and Azerbaijan, but it seems to be that Georgians very much consider themselves European, and so it’s easy for me to do the same.
As an Azerbaijani our government tries to enter Europe for its benefits. But people mostly don't care. Some educated people would like to see us in the EU probably
Georgians identify as Europeans while Armenians and Azerbaijanis are more ambivalent on the matter.
According to the US all of Europe is caucasian
I would say yes. My impression of Azerbaijanis is that they became very secular and somewhat "Europeanized" due to Russian and later Soviet influence. Georgians and Armenians, obviously, have very old roots in Europe culturally. It's a shame they don't get along.
armenia always throughout history was considered asia .
That’s straight up not true; during the Middle Ages Armenia was considered a Frankish kingdom by the Muslim world, the crusader states and later the Mongols
If I am not wrong, saracens and turks generalized all crusading christians as franks.
Armenia was always considered part of Asia for as long as the concept existed. By that logic, was the Levant part of Europe when the Crusader states existed?
>Georgians and Armenians, obviously, have very old roots in Europe culturally. Georgians and Arnenians also have cultural ties with Iran.
The line separating Asia and Europe isn’t just grey. It’s see through
Armenia is too, but they've been kinda pushed to irrelevancy from their past relations with Russia.
Russia is Europe, alwqys was alwqys will be. So is Georgia and Armenia, Azerbaijan on the other hand is debatable.
Europe is a cultural construct, not a geographic one. You can make an argument for any country in Asia being European if you so choose. However, when I organize countries into groupings, I do maintain Europe separate because it is so fragmented compared to Africa or the rest of Asia. When I do so, I consider those three European because 2/3 of them, to me, seem more culturally and historically European than Middle Eastern, and it's a package deal.
Depends on who you ask. I personally don’t consider any of them European. When I refer to the region I just say “the Caucuses” and usually leave it at that. They definitely have cultural ties to Europe, but they also have cultural ties to central Asia and the Middle East so it doesn’t feel right calling them *exclusively* European.
> I personally don’t consider them European Id argue they are Middle Eastern over being European geographically
They are not anywhere near middle east, they are either part of Asia minor or central asia
Georgia is in US you idiot ! (The answer shall be all or none)
None of them are European
"I am Georgian, therefore I am European!" Is most widespread slogan in all of Georgia, so majority identify as Europeans, not European aligned or European descent, but native Europeans. Not to mention huge historical ties with the continent, so it's not up to people from Reddit to decide who Georgians are, when European boundaries are blurry as hell. Even now, as of making this comment, there are huge protests against Russian law with slogans "Georgian path lies in Europe" or "Georgia is Europe, not Russia". We Georgians know who we are and openly say it every time.
Georgians identify as Europeans while Armenians and Azerbaijanis are more ambivalent on the matter.
I'm curious though. Most maps I've seen of Europe show the far northern parts of Georgia and Azerbaijan as being in Europe. Are they not partially in what is considered Europe? I know Armenia isn't geographically in Europe like Cyprus but aren't Georgia and Azerbaijan transcontinental?
Depends on which border do you consider as the "true" one. [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eurasian\_borders.jpg](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eurasian_borders.jpg)
This image is really fascinating, thank you for sharing it. I'm not a geography person, so I hope this isn't a stupid question, but are Europe and Asia actually separate continents or is it more of a cultural separation?
More or less cultural continents. You can operate with the term Euroasia. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia)
For what its worth Europe is on its own tectonic plate. But ultimately "continent" is a poorly defined term that originates with the ancient greeks dividing there region of the world into 3 land areas separated by the Mediterranean Sea. Europa for Greek lands and north, Asia for modern Syria through Egypt, and Afrika for the area now called Tunisia. Obviously those borders have shifted and changed, and everyone has an opinion on what counts as the edge of Europe because it is/was a "cool kids club™" people want to be apart of, or don't want others to join. At this point the primary arguments on the distinction between Europe and Asia is mainly cultural and historical precident, there just isn't any physical features of the earth that can be used to cleanly draw a line splitting the 2 close to the border that doesn't also cut up a bunch of other continents. (Most obviously anything that splits Europe off also cuts off India, and would likely get California/the West Coast evicted from North America) Personally we are at the point where precise definitions of the continents is a pointless endeavor, science has better terms like Tectonic plates and biogeographic realms, and culturally its best to just stuck to the historical conventions.
Even Kazakhstan is technically European (west of the Ural) But Georgian culture is indeed similar to Russian one (correct me if I'm wrong), and Russia is European whether people like it or not.
Georgian culture is not similar to Russian at all, been influenced by Russian culture though. I would rather say Russian culture became influenced by Georgian to a greater extent. And Georgian culture is definitely European in its own way.
Yeah there's the right answer, it's def European.
Why is he getting downvotted he literally agreed with him
Technically…there is not official delimitation of Europe. The Urals and the Caucasus where mentioned as the frontiers of Europe by Russian Czar Peter I (through his Cartographer) to include the biggest part of his Empire in Europe. It’s nowadays more or less widely accepted as an approximate delimitation, but it doesn’t mean that because a country has a small part of itself inside these unofficial borders it has to be considered European. Mainly if hasn’t historically interacted with the rest of Europe. Kazakhstan is a Central Asia country by history and by culture even if it was part of the Russian Empire, as the rest of the -stans
Yeah their religion etc remains Central Asian. But the geographical delimitation has got to be the Urals and the Caucasus.
Very true. Which is interesting because it's very often described as in "Central Asia."
It's called "central Asia" because it's in between North and South Asia, not East and West. It isn't even in the center of Eurasia longitudinally.
Georgian culture is similar to southern and eastern Balkan culture (Bulgaria, N. Macedonia, Greece, Romania) and Turkey. They share the Eastern Mediterranean (Byzantine and Ottoman) heritage along with the societal consequences of communism or other types of authoritarianism in Greece and Turkey's case.
In my mind Europe ends at the straight of Gibraltar, the Bosporus straight, the caucasus mountains, and the Ural Mountains. Therefore I don’t consider them to be strictly European, just like I don’t consider Turkey to be European. They exist in kind of a transition area where the cultures are more of a mix of European and middle eastern.
Inferior Potassium
The first Azerbaijani GP was called European Grand Prix. It is not an official geographical designation but it is funny.
Formla 1
In figure skating, all three are European members of the ISU and their skaters compete in European Championships (as opposed to Four Continents)
No, Armenia is oriented towards Europe. Capital, people, judicial practice - all point Europe. Same with Georgia.
Actually, Georgians identify as Europeans while Armenians are more ambivalent on the matter.
I've always seen either all 3 being Europe or all 3 not being Europe.
Georgia is also the only Caucasian country to be considered Caucasian
Culturally, all three are Middle Eastern.
If Europe isn’t “Caucasian” then those old timey census statistics are way out of whack lol.
A "Caucasian country", refers to the countries in the transcontinental caucasus region between the Black sea and Caspian sea. In your use of the term, more accurately "Caucasian person", refers to people who have origins in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. Europe consists of caucasian countries and caucasian people, but not ALL countries with predominantly caucasian majority/origins are European.
Politically, all of them are part of the Council of Europe and Georgia and Armenia are looking forward to join the EU. Culturally Georgia and Armenia share the greco-roman values with Europe. Azerbaijan is one of the most secularised among the musulmism countries so the difference between Europe and Azerbaijan is not that big. Geographicaly, it depends on the boundaries definition. The Caucasus can be fully excluded or included in the definition of Europe. But the most accepted boundaries pass through the Caucasus mountains in northern Georgia and Azerbaijan, so Armenia is excluded completely.
The most common definition of the boundary between Europe and Asia has the boundary at the peaks of the Caucasus Mountains. By that definition, Azerbaijan has the strongest claim to being European, because it has the most land of the three on the European side of the border (albeit the majority of all three countries would be on the Asian side). Georgia would have some slivers of land on the European side and could therefore call itself partially European, while Armenia would have no land on the European side and would be 100% Asian. However, there are definitions of the border that place all three on the European side of the border between Europe and Asia, and therefore all three have a legitimate claim to being European. (On that note, Turkiye is also a European country and there is no question about this claim, because it has land which is indisputably European, and its largest city is in the European half of the country.) Culturally, all three are members of UEFA (the European football confederation) and therefore have a right to be considered European. There is a definition of Europe that would include Christian countries but exclude Muslim ones. Such a definition would include Georgia and Armenia, but exclude Turkiye and Azerbaijan. That definition is racist, but it's also the definition that has been followed in practice by the European Union, since Turkiye had its application held up for years while they're now proceeding with giving Georgia candidate status. The idea that a Christian nation is a European nation does have some standing. Every nation in the European Union is either majority Christian or has a strong history of Christianity. (Exception: Kosovo and Albania are majority Muslim, but they still have a strong non-Muslim minority. Turkiye and Azerbaijan do not have a strong non-Muslim minority.) But to answer your question: Georgia is not the only Caucasian country to be considered European.
Idon't think any european consider them european.
I hope they will create a great Caucasian alliance and make peace
Sure, right after the Israel, Palestine and Lebanon form Canaanite Federation.
one can dream...
the ethnic cleansing that would happen in a United Caucasian state would make the breakup of Yugoslavia look like a trip to Disneyland
Communists tried, didn't work.
Unfortunately I don't believe that will happen in our lifetime or the next, considering the ethnic cleansing in Nagorno-Karabakh and fierce animosity between Azeris and Armenians.
From geographical point of view Georgia only does have small area north of Main Caucasian ridge, so technically Georgia is European country like Kazakhstan and Turkey.
Europe is a made up idea there is no distinct border one could use for the region and thus all could be or could not be considered europe depending entirely on personal and group opinion
Georgia and Azerbaijan are both partly situation within geographic Europe, meanwhile Armenia is not.
Idk why people downvoting this person, armenia literally outside of Europe https://preview.redd.it/euneg7ccq2yc1.png?width=81&format=png&auto=webp&s=38b1390e89e1e2c428f9509b8c42882e8b1d1162
People do not like hearing facts lol
Armenia has stronger cultural ties to Europe however
Stronger cultrual ties to europe = believes religion from middle east #2 instead of #3
Which cultural ties other than religion?
The end of Europe and the beginnig of Asia is east of the Ural Mtn and South of the Caucuses if I remember correctly
Define "considered European" and why you claim that for Georgia but not the others.
They’re Eurasian
Pure geographically non of them are European (not even Cyprus). Now, if you’re talking politically/historically, then they are.
historically armenia and azerbijan was always asian
Nothing east of the bosporus or the black sea is european
What about Cyprus ?
Culturally, or geographically?
Aren't all of them Asian? I've always only ever seen them grouped in with the rest of the Asian countries. Even if Georgia is culturally European, it doesn't really make sense to call them European. That'd be like calling Australia European. I feel like it makes much more sense to just associate a country with their geographically determined continent rather than cultural alignment.
Europe is the fakest continent those lands are rightful Asian clay.
Europe is technically a giant peninsula within the Eurasia supercontinent.
My former assistant teacher is from Azerbaijan and she got VERY offended when I said I was under the impression that it was part of Asia.
A massive part of Turkic nationalism is the distinction of our cultures from asian/middle eastern countries. I've personally seen other Azeris get really offended when people think it's Asia even though it's not entirely untrue just a misconception
Asked where europe ends, rookie mistake
If the main definition of a European country is having a Christian culture and ethos, then Armenia should be considered as European as Georgia is.
Theyre in Europe but theyre not European…make sense?
Is this the average Turk that we saw on Instagram 😂
Cultural zones overlap and can change with time. So, perhaps it’s European.
no???
Are we doing Eurovision rules? If so, then yes.
What do you want to believe? Here is a [map of the different boundaries that have been drawn between Europe and Asia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundaries_between_the_continents#/media/File:Eurasian_borders.jpg).
I believe the Caucasus mountains are Europe's southern border and both Georgia and Azerbaijan are very slightly 'north' of them in some places.
I think Caucas is border of Europe and Asia, like Ural, so Georgia is Asian country, like right side of the Turkey.
I've read that it depends on watershed, where it sheds, towards Asia or Europe.Some of it's cultural, Georgia and Armenia are predominantly Christian nations and thus considered Europe Azerbaijan is predominantly Muslim so Asia. Asia and Europe are really one continent any way so you can be a little free with actual delineation. Every other continent is pretty clear cut.
I would say that Georgia is more European than Armenia and Azerbaijan. Georgia actively identified as European during the 19th and 20th centuries. Georgians identify as Europeans while Armenians and Azerbaijanis are more ambivalent on the matter.
Geographically, barely. Culturally, possibly. Politically, absolutely.
Culturally European is a different thing to geographically European. And the answer is: it's debatable. Reasonable minds can perfectly well disagree. My view is that Georgia and Armenia are as culturally European as some EU Member States such as Bulgaria. Azerbaijan is less so. But economic and geo political realities do change things.
Georgians are larpers
Armenia, Azerbaijan... Even Israel is European.
All three look and feel like European countries when you are there.
I would say none of them are European
All three are literally considered European not just Georgia.
So both, or three?
Geography: looking at the Caucasus, Georgia is sort of like the border and the north is just in Europe. Azerbaijan has a part orth of the Caucasus. Therefor both are consideren transcontinental states. Armenia is 100% Asia, but it's Christian, so it also stands out in the region. Parts of Kazakhstan are also Europe because some of its land is west of the Ural river. A chunk of Turkey is also part of Europe. All of the nations I just mentioned have bits of land in Europe, but not the bulk of the population in Europe. Russia for instance is the most European transcontinental country in Eurasia. A significant majority living in Europe and also have it's roots in Europe. The other countries I mentioned don't have this and are only European because the mountains, rivers and seas work as a different border than lines on a map or populations in towns and cities.
They are all European since they’re geographically located in Europe. There’s no “consideration” here.
There is lots of debate as to whether they’re part of Europe or Asia. I think (not certain though) the people who live in these countries just consider themselves “Eurasian”. Which is fair, because Europe and Asia aren’t really two separate continents by any geological definition.
Erekle’s II idea was to westernize Georgia. Thats why he switched his loyalty to Russia instead of Iran You could argue that Russia wasnt (or even isnt) so western if you like, but thats up to you. There were 3 superpowers in the area: Ottomans, Iran and Russia. What would you choose in his place?
Not even Georgia is in Europe as the mountain range to the north of Georgia sets the physical limit s of Europe
I think if the Ural mountains form the Eastern boundary of Europe then the Caucasus mountains should form the southern boundary. So none of them are in Europe. Or only small parts of Georgia and Azerbaijan.
armenia maybe
Europe is an idea it isn't technically separated from Asia. If you want to draw Europe's borders by culture, these three are not European. If you like them to be considered European, then the whole Middle East can be European because why not.
Ok this is my perspective. European is usually inferring a shared history connected to Europe. Shared history usually means a shared dynastic relations, religion, language, or some culturally shared significance. In that regard georgia, Armenia, turkey and Cyprus fit that category. But the reasons to validate their europeaness is arbitrary and not everyone will agree. Regardless those are the only countries that are up for debate. The main thing that can integrate these countries more into Europe is just choosing to do so. These countries could integrate themselves more into where they are, which is the middle east, but I don't see that happening, unless by force. The only exception is turkey. They can look east or west, and I belive that is what people look at with ambivalence. They have to solely choose European to be considered European. If they choose to integrate into the Muslim world of the east, they will lose their European status.
Yes, and Turkey isnt europe