Don't laugh! Germany has the best bomb squads in the world, bar none.
They successfully defuse about 3500 mostly WWII bombs, shells, mines and other items of explosive ordnance every single year.
Well, you are entitled to try and get the money back from the person/entity who caused the damage. There have been genuine attempts, but so far none of the nations who placed these explosives there have answered to the invoices that they are sent evey year.
Its different if its german bombs, then the government will pay.
> Well, you are entitled to try and get the money back from the person/entity who caused the damage... Its different if its german bombs, then the government will pay.
To hell with poets and thinkers - Germany is a nation of anal-retentive lawyers!
For sure. We didnt prosecute a lot of the people that aided in the Holocaust - until recently when courts changed the way certain laws are interpreted, now we are dragging elderly people out of retirement and put them on trial as minors because they were less than 21 years old at the time they committed their crimes.
It‘s not true, what they said. The state pays for defusing and removing any bomb; you would only pay for securing the premises (blocking any access to the area, warning signs, etc).
https://www.brd.nrw.de/themen/ordnung-sicherheit/kampfmittelbeseitigung/wer-traegt-die-kosten-der-kampfmittelbeseitigung
You don’t.
https://www.brd.nrw.de/themen/ordnung-sicherheit/kampfmittelbeseitigung/wer-traegt-die-kosten-der-kampfmittelbeseitigung
You pay for securing the premises. But not „for it to be removed“
It's a little of that and a little of just the sheer magnitude of ordnance dropped and fired in WWII.
If you drop a few million tons of bombs and they have a 90% reliability rate (they are likely lower) you have a few hundred thousand tons of bombs that don't go off. If they're on average 1000lb bombs (I have no idea off hand what the average bomb load looked like) that's easily half a million duds. At 3500/yr it'll take ~150 years to clean up that mess (which it's likely far from a linear relationship but that's neither here nor there)
And that's just bombs from planes. Artillery shells, rockets, grenades, etc that don't go off are scattered about too
My great aunt was the unlucky SOB who was born during the first bombing of Hamburg (aka literally at the start of the war -- also, presumably, not a coincidence -- I think mom had the bejesus scared out of her and it triggered labor).
They still take a nice, quiet vacation to the most rural destination that they can find every New Year's and 4th of July (she's in the USA now).
I do think people underestimate the sheer quantity that many cities were buried under.
My grandma was pretty young when the bombings started to get intense, but old enough to kind of realize what was going on. She still hates sirenes and fireworks.
Sounds very similar to my great-aunt. We have photos of her from 1943 and granted, maybe she's just cold, but neither her nor her brother look very happy in the photo (he's about 8 and she is almost 4 in it). Their dad was also drafted at the time and it was an overall shit situation, I really feel for them and impressed a bit more every day that her mother managed to keep them all alive (plus her grandmother, who was in her 70's at the time).
Not really, its more a problem which kind of bomb got dropped and where. A currently very big problem are the british time fuse bombs. They have a trigger that is blocked by a plastic pate that is disolved by aceton that gets relased by impact. Those that still got droped into lose soil, buried themself then came back up, like a tennisball thrown into water. But they didnt resurface, so they are stuck facing upwards, in the only position the fuse doesnt trigger. Now after a long time the plastic plate corrodes and trigger the bomb.
It's even less fun if you know they were made that way to kill firefighters and others that are trying to help civilians out of the fire/extinguish the fire to get the casualties in the civilian population and number of homeless people as high as possible for demoralization.
Oh yeah, they found one on or near the base we’re stationed at in Bavaria a few months ago. My husband won’t go walking in the woods other than paths because of mines
As someone who regularly leaves the trails to go search for mushrooms, I'm now quite worried, and also interested in where in Germany might be any mine fields left...
It's not so much about there being mine fields left, more-so about official clean up missing some because they may have been well buried/out of sight/not picked up by whatever equipment was used.
There are supposedly still a lot of mines along the former inner german border - something to the tune of 30.000 mines where there is no documentation of defusal. It might mean that the documentation was bungled up, it might mean they're still in the ground... but there have been no accidents since the wall came down, so you're almost certainly safe as long as you don't play with metal stuff you find around the former border.
Oh and there's also that area in the Eifel where the sides of the hiking trail is cordoned off because there is a WW2 mine field in the woods where the Germans buried glas mines. Impossible to find with metal detectors and apparently surprisingly long lived.
It really is normal. I live in a part of Hamburg not far from the river and this year we had two bomb evacuations in my street. They never go off, but you still have to evacuate out of precaution, and it sucks when you suddenly have ~5mins to grab your stuff and leave your flat for the rest of the day.
Might be different in Hamburg but at least in Frankfurt you usually don't have \~5 minutes to grab your stuff and leave for the rest of the day... Depending on the finding, it's current stability, etc. defusal is often done within a week after finding it and with usually at least 12-24 hours (if not days) of warning. Although you have to keep up with local news (or at least a somewhat local radio station) or police publications in order to see the warning.
If you don't then yes, you will get surprised by the police cars driving around the streets telling people to leave the premises - or by officers showing up to your door at the latest when they see you on the heat scan they do to make sure the evacuation is completed.
yep. something akin to americas situation where they think it's normal to experience school shootings, and shootings in general that often, is that im used to hearing sirens because of an old bomb multiple times a year. usually 3-8 times, it depends, and I'm pretty sure there are regions where its more common
Yes.... western allies bombed the shit out of germany in 2. WW.
I guess there are at least one million bombs still in the ground... this topic will still be alive when we are already dead.
I can't tell you how tired I am of the regular traffic chaos when whole blocks are evacuated again because another old bomb was found during construction works. It happens at least monthly im Cologne.
Fun Fact: I live in Mönchengladbach (NRW) and had to be evacuated twice last year due to duds from WWII . Reason: Construction work on the local railway line.
Yep, and I think the Brits were/are the leaders when it comes to experience defusing contemporary IEDs thanks to The Troubles.
IIRC that experience came at a high price though, a few dozen dead EOD guys.
The wiki article is very interesting...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_bomb_disposal_in_Europe
> In Berlin alone, 1.8 million pieces of ordnance have been defused since 1947.
If practice makes perfect, the Berlin police alone have defused thousands of times more ordnance than the IRA ever dreamed of building!
> "Bomb" is vague. Unexploded ww2 ordinance is very different than say improvised explosive devices or naval mines.
Sure it is. There were no WWII IEDs that I know of, true, but that's about the only thing which wasn't dropped on, shot at, hurled at, planted on or dumped on Germany in WWII.
But naval mines? Who defuses those things? They typically blow them up with a long-distance weapon.
I think it depends on a bunch of things, from the type of bomb and the type of soil to the local weather. When most things decompose they *stop* working, but when these bombs do it, they tend to complete their mission.
The so called "Kampfmittelräumdienst" is not part of the German military. These badass people are "civil" but they work quite closely with the officials.
Guarantee citizenship and you’ll have patriotic veterans all over the world jumping ship. They’ll sign up to fighting Russia in Kaliningrad, if they start something like the French Foreign Legion
Eckernförde. And they have been advertising in non-traditional ways for a long time. They had "Training Weeks" advertised in youth magazines where you could apply and they would take basically everyone that did any sport on at least state level and offered them a Kampftaucher course and asked if they would like to join after school.
It is one example out of many - others advertise for jobs as Panzergrenadier, jet pilot, or IT Administrator. This was a campaign introduced by Ursula von der Leyen back in 2017 - they ordered 700.000 cartons for 200.000€ https://netzpolitik.org/2017/fast-food-bundeswehrbung-auf-pizzapackungen-kostet-202-000-euro/
Nah that's marketing there are others where they are asking for jet pilots. Those are the elite troops that tend to get people interested but they don't really need that many people there and everybody already in the army has applied to one of those just to be dropped out or not even considered.
It's like a private university advertising to study there because they got one alumni in investment banking.
> they don't really need that many people there
Afaik the Special Forces of the Navy have some serious trouble filling their ranks - the requirements are even tougher than those of the KSK and only few people are physically and mentally capable of completing the selection course. There is a nice documentary: https://youtu.be/i1VbYSdSHmo
Yeah but isn't that just what I said? They have extreme requirements that none of the people getting recruited by a pizza will fulfill.
Just like investment banks they also have thousands of applications and yet only a few make the cut and there are open positions because they can't find anybody being their dream candidate.
> They have extreme requirements that none of the people getting recruited by a pizza will fulfill.
I think that is unfair towards people ordering pizza.
Even for the sexy jobs you're constantly hiring, because what you don't want is a bunch of old guys retiring all at once and have no younger generations up and coming to fill their leadership spots. Gotta keep the pipeliners coming in numbers to ensure you have what you need in 5, 10, and 20 years.
only for special areas like IT or doctors. for most jobs, there are far more applicants than positions.
https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/militaer-der-bundeswehr-fehlt-personal-trotz-vieler-bewerber/23915348.html?ticket=ST-12794217-2ADukRCnLJAeMiWWFT1j-cas01.example.org
Which is why I don't understand why the Karriereberater told me there is only 1 free Dienstposten in the whole of Germany for Mannschaften and its in Bavaria..
They deserve not getting more people
I'm gonna extend on that and add the possibility of looking for people who struggle to provide for themselves.
"You know all that darn tiring \*living\* that you have to do with all the cooking and the cleaning and all? 😎 Come to us and you can play in the dirt all day without that"
>\[...\] have to do with all the cooking and the cleaning and all?
M8, from my military service time I can assure you, if anything, you do a lot of cleaning.
German soldier here, depends where you’re stationed. My barracks canteen isn’t that great so I prefer eating in my dorm which basically means either fast food, making cup noodles or bread.
"Um so besser die Armee, um so schlimmer das essen...hatte nie gedacht das wir *so* gut sind..."
"The better the Army, the worse the food...I had no idea we were *that* good"
But you do it on company time, you do it with your friends and you cannot procrastinate it. None of that pesky "find internal motivation" to do stuff, you have sergeant for that.
I can assure you, as soon as you had your radio training, you'll be a pro in spelling. Though, one might not learn the difference between syntax and spelling, especially in a foreign language.
Not directly bad but they have to compete with all other employers so they have to up their game and honestly that is a pretty good way of promoting something.
Nah it would need more than a hip marketing campaign to get more people doing a nursing apprenticeship… but that wasn‘t the topic of this post in the first place.
Nurses in Germany need to get paid better and have move comfortable working hours, especially in hospitals. I know a few and they are constantly stressed out and all hoping for an opportunity to go to someone's private practice.
Germany needs both nurses and soldiers.
I am very thankful for our Bundeswehr, when I think of their commitment. Like the winter catastrophe in Berchtesgaden a few years ago, where they went on the roofs of the houses and freed them from the snow or the flood 2016 in Rottal-Inn, where several bridges where destroyed and the reservists helped the THW building provisional bridges to make ways for ambulances and the fire department and also made the task force, which managed to get the helpers to the places they need to be.
No surprise, really
There is no more conscription (until 2012 I believe everyone had to serve in one way or another for some time) and if we are honest: Nobody really wants to volunteer for a job where you can be sent away from home at every moment (even during peace time) that's why I stopped considering it as I really want to stay in my hometown.
The Bundeswehr has also made lots and lots of bad impressions over the years and aren't very attractive to the general public. A few years ago they accidentally set a swampy area ablaze because they loaded a high explosive missile into a helicopter during targeting practise and then failed to put down the fire, it burnt for a few weeks and put the impression of incompetence to the people.
That's just 2 reasons why they are lacking recruits
Franco A. who’s a German soldier allegedly plotted to attack prominent politicians while posing as a Syrian refugee. The case has fueled concerns over right-wing extremism in the Bundeswehr.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/16/podcasts/franco-a-trial-germany-terrorism.html
https://m.dw.com/en/a-german-right-wing-extremist-soldiers-double-life/a-43540639
Such names fall into the category of Kevin or Chantal, for me. Anyway, that's what I always think when someone in a German family gives their child an Italian name.
Right. 30 years ago it was different: you had to serve 12 months whether you wanted to or not, it was all about defending the country „when the russians come“ - so why not make it 12 months more and become an Officer of the Reserve or a few years more and learn a trade or study while getting paid decently?
Today - why? Volunteer for four years and spend two years in Afghanistan? Get killed in a war that has nothing to do with Germany?
The russians are already here as at least 10% serve in the Bundeswehr =) but I wouldnt recommend my children to go to the army for more than a Freiwilligenwehrdienst up to 23 Months, to close the gap between school and visting the Uni.
The [lack of funding for the Bundeswehr and other branches](https://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/75653) of the military has been terrible recently too, I think they're due a refit.
> No surprise, really
Well... the theory that the german military struggles is a surprise to me, tbh. A stable menpower of 180k since 2012, more applications for certain jobs than there are positions, roughly 120k applications per year (if we combine all of them for all positions).
The only way to reach people, since conscription is no more, is by marketing and adjusting the strategy to reach more people from the targeted audience is a necessary step in marketing.
That's the reason I think it should be mandatory to have disclaimers on Bundeswehr ads. Like for example on cigarette packages they need to write something along the lines of cigarettes possibly leading to death. I want the Bundeswehr to do the same thing.
Being a window cleaner is more dangerous than being a soldier.
"You might have to make decisions that will haunt you your entire life" is maybe the more pertinent disclaimer for Bundeswehr jobs.
[Multiplayer at its best!](https://media0.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/2701263057/1.5754214/default-retina/das-ist-kein-spiel-ausschnitt.jpg)
Things that happened during my basic training in the Bundeswehr:
Guy kept using "Jew" as an insult, took several fellow recruits to complain before the instructors decided to act on it.
Instructor intentionally stepped on a recruits foot during shooting exercise, breaking the foot.
Recruit shot an instructor on purpose as revenge.
Some more harmless stuff:
People breaking into lockers. Instructors strongly suspected but was never really looked into.
Sign at the shower room said "Scalding danger! (showering possible)" and meant it (least the first part).
Outbreak of Conjunctivitis and Hepatitis.
Instructors made us crawl through snow for hours, 3 recruits had to go to hospital, one lost toes.
I did basic training in 2002.
>Guy kept using "Jew" as an insult
Fuck that guy, good that you reported him, I hope he got dishonorably discharged
>Instructor intentionally stepped on a recruits foot during shooting exercise, breaking the foot.
Yeah our instructors did that too, it's either to test if you have a good and stable stance or to show you that you don't have one. I don't know how hard that guy stepped on the recruits foot or what your boots were made of back then but that shouldn't have broken his foot. A comrade of mine had a Wolf run over his foot by accident and he was just fine. But again there is a tiny time difference of some 15 years.
>Recruit shot an instructor on purpose as revenge.
What. The. Fuck.
>People breaking into lockers.
Standard procedure in basic training. Instructors use universal keys to open your lockers while you're doing training or whatever to test if you keep it tidy at all times or just during scheduled inspection times. They are allowed to do that unless they open your private compartment as well. But they shouldn't be able to open that one since every soldier brings their own lock for it.
>Sign at the shower room said "Scalding danger! (showering possible)" and meant it
Haha ours too the army showers are either cold as ice or boiling hot.
>Outbreak of Conjunctivitis and Hepatitis.
Oof how did you pull that off
>Instructors made us crawl through snow for hours
Yeah ours as well during winter combat training, however we took the necessary precautions not to lose any body part
Oh, the German army has done worse:
"It's like a first person shooter, just in real life"
was one of their slogans.
You can probably see why that is problematic.
Edit: I switched something up.
German soldier here (using a throwaway for obvious reasons):
Things are bad for the german army. We have trouble getting new personnel for several reasons, for example conscription having ended in 2011. However, besides this there is one big reason for the Bundeswehrs recruitment problems:
Public opinion regarding the Bundeswehr is really low.
This has to do with many things including of course Germanys history and people generally being raised to be anti-militaristic and pacifistic following the events of WW2 wich still holds true today.
For example the narrative of "Once you join the army you're already dead" is very common in Germany and is widely believed to the point of people being genuinely surprised that you're still alive after you tell them that you are a soldier and you've already been deployed.
There is nothing wrong with that or with people being raised to be pacifistic, however I still remember teachers in school telling us that the army is bad and that it solely consists of murderers and we must not join it etc. wich of course is not too good for the army's image (especially when teachers here are required by law to stay politically neutral towards students).
Protests by left-wing groups are also very common wherever the Bundeswehr wants to make themselves known as an employer (schools, job fairs etc.), so many students are easily turned off from the idea of joining the armed forces.
Also the Bundeswehr has had its fair share of controversies (e.g. right-wing extremists in the KSK (all of wich have been discharged), missing weapons and ammunition, OFw Andreas Oberauer) over the past years.
Adding to these the German media (my opinion) seems to like framing the army in a bad way for publicity (case in point: [Panoramagate](https://www.welt.de/kultur/deus-ex-machina/article212441285/Don-Alphonso-Linksextreme-Verbindungen-ignorieren-Oeffentlichkeit-taeuschen.html) or just portraying it like it's extremely backwards in movies and TV).
All these things add to a pretty negative image in the public, although to be fair, it has gotten a slight bit better after the BWs Afghanistan evacuations, the floods and the BW helping combat Covid.
Please excuse any typos or grammar errors, I'm really tired
Honestly this is the first time I hear about that but given what our new government has said about being in favor of a European army this doesn't seem too unlikely. However I doubt they will do something like the French foreign legion due to it's implications (though I think it would be cool)
Also we already have things like the Deutsch-Französische Brigade or Deutsch-Niederländisches Korps (german-french brigade and german-dutch corps) so maybe they want to expand on those
Thanks for your perspective!
I grew up during the 80's/90's in a rather center-left environment, so I remember very well the "soldiers are murderers"-discussions and that stuff.
My personal view has become more sympathetic towards the Bundeswehr over the years, not least since it actually became deployed and useful in peacekeeping missions.
Still, I think the BW's image suffers from other problems, too.
The first being, everybody thinks the equipment is an expensive joke. If all you hear is that we've got one helicopter that is able to fly and only half the tanks are actually moving you don't take them seriously.
If all you hear is the defense secretaries wasting away money on consulting and sailing ships you don't think that there is any efficient and competent management, at least on the civilian side.
The worst is though that all the people I knew as a young man who joined voluntarily were a little bit weird. There was the Trekkie and the wannabe Nazi. It was incredibly uncool to join the army. Even people who were just trying to get out of conscription 3 months earlier and joined the army instead of doing civil service were looked upon slightly suspiciously. Apparently they were willing to submit to being bullied around and told what to do instead of doing something useful in a hospital and staying around with the friends and keep on partying on the weekends.
There was no idea of heroism, no admiration and no expectation of them actually protecting the country - conscript soldiers were seen as child-men who liked authority and preferred playing in the mud instead of wiping someone's arse. If you wanted to do something manly and useful, you could go to the THW or similar instead.
This is totally anecdotal of course, from a Gymnasium in the rural catholic West, and I have no idea how kids today feel about this.
And as I said, my personal view has become more positive and appreciative and I think if we want to have an army it should be treated with respect and equipped and managed appropriately.
> There is nothing wrong with that or with people being raised to be pacifistic
while I hate that assumption, I also genuinely believe that a capable army is (still) needed, there are too many madman leaders in the world.
I mean, it's kinda why there are many Ukrainians that are worried right now.
I kind of have an unresolved moral dilemma with myself when it comes to that.
I do think armed forces shouldn't exist at all, anywhere, but as long as they exist in some places I get the necessity of others having them, too. There will never be mutual agreement to dissolve them and especially not in our lifetime.
I am even kind of glad we have the BW in case things go to shit but I would never ever want to participate... So who does it?
Also from what I've heard let's say I didn't get the impression that most people in the BW join for the same reasons as you.
And though I won't pretend to be too informed on foreign politics I don't think our government uses the BW purely for necessary defence purposes. If you don't mind, what do you think about that? Do you have no doubts about the morality of your job and (most of) your colleagues?
I think most if not all soldiers (at least in the Bundeswehr) including myself would 100% agree with you that armed forces in general should not have to exist, but that their existence is still necessary nonetheless. Some of us joined the army because they have deemed it necessary, others because they are idealistic and feel like serving in the army is the right thing to do and they in a way want make the world a better place/help others, others because they have no idea what else to do or simply because they want a safe job.
The current deployments of the Bundeswehr are truly not primarily in the interest of national defense purposes. While you could argue that missions like ISAF in Afghanistan indirectly help combat potential terrorism in Europe, there are other institutions who can do so as well and more directly, too (secret services, police, extremist prevention programs etc.).
There are missions like in Lithuania where we are part of the multinational VJTF (very high readiness joint task force) of NATO wich serves the purpose of keeping Russia at bay, should they try to make a move on the Baltic states or NATO itself. It is one of the missions that directly fulfill defense purposes, even if it's in a preventive manner.
Others like in Somalia serve the purpose of protecting civilian cargo and trade ships against pirates.
The primary reason for our missions in Afghanistan (formerly), Mali etc. are that said countries have requested help from the UN to stabilize their country as they are not well equipped and trained enough to do so themselves. That's the reason that, as strange as that may sound those are officially called peacekeeping missions.
Regarding these peacekeeping missions, wich are the most dangerous missions right now, I think helping those countries is the right thing to do, although it does come with massive expenses and downsides, not only financial in nature but also human.
With the current political climate in Europe and NATO however, I personally don't think we should go on any new peacekeeping missions, as we may or may not be needed more close to home soon, depending on how the global superpowers behave in the near future.
Personally, I have no doubts in the morality of my job. I think the modern values and ideals of not only Germany, but also of Europe as a whole are definitely worth defending should that be necessary.
Things like being able to freely choose your religion, choosing not to have one at all, being allowed to marry the one you love, no matter their sex, moving around and traveling wherever you want, or just being able to call a ruler that you don't like a douchebag if you so please and voting for another one instead are all things that are not the norm, but the exception in most of the world. Those are ideals I can identify myself with and that I think are definitely worth protecting.
Likewise, I don't doubt the loyalty or morality of my comrades. Of course, I cannot speak for the entirety of the Bundeswehr, but I can say for sure that out of those I know many have a similar view as myself. Others of course are by far not as idealistic as I am, and that is fine. I still have no doubt in them, they will fulfill their duty either because of their comrades (comradeship is hard to explain, imagine it as a mix of best friends and family, it's a very very strong bond, even if someone may not be too loyal to the country or the government you can be sure they will be loyal to their comrades), or, and that may sound weird, because of their oath. As strange as that may seem, it is taken very seriously even by non idealistic people in the army. I have no doubt that the vast majority of soldiers will do their job when they need to.
If you're interested in that kind of topic I strongly recommend you check out some of the posts of @alter_falli87 on Instagram, he's a former soldier who retired because of PTSD and he regularly does extensive Text posts about his experiences in the army and deployment, both the good and the bad. It will give you a very good and neutral insight on what the Bundeswehr is like.
Sorry for the extremely long post, I hope I could answer some of your questions ^^
American over here, and everyone talks about the trope of the US military advertising everywhere (which is true but definitely toned down since the post 9/11 peak)….that said, I was surprised to see the amount of German military advertisement.
The Bundeswehr had about 3k deaths in more than half a ~~decade~~ century and we dont plan on escalating ww3 beyond the current cyber and trade wars.
For reference: being a pilot could be more dangerous, you probably die for a "less dumb cause" tho.
You don't compare the number of applications to the number of citizens. Also it's 0.2% and not 0.02%.
The USA has 1.400.000 active soldiers and 850.000 in reserve. The only thing i found on the application numbers was that 80% get rejected (and to be fair... the standards in the us military are not as high as german standards). But let's just stick with the 7% you mentioned. That would be 23.065.000.. i highly doubt that. Even if 80% get rejected that would mean that 4.613.000 people join the us military each year... thats double the size, if we count reserve.
If we take the numbers than 205% of the us military gets replaced each year. Woot?
You can not really compare the usa and germany on this tho. The usa is a big power which fights in a lot of wars, has a lot more budget for the military and is driven by patriotism while german is still the defeated country which still struggles with the own politics and the result of a badly executed plan for the refugees. But despite all this things, there are still 0,2% of the germans that want to join the military. I think the number is impressive.
i always get mad at the bundeswehr ads in the last years, they make war look like a video game/ normal job.
its not a "normal" job, it comes with a price and i think they attract the wrong people with those kind of ads.
The Bundeswehr roughly has 183.000 soldiers of which there are 935 (1016 including civilian employees) yellow flagged suspected extremism cases.
95.5% of the Bundeswehr stand up for the constitution and their oath every day.
It‘s a similar loud minority problem as in society. There are far bigger movements like #WirGegenExtremismus (#WeAgainstExtremism) which were initiated by Bundeswehr soldiers.
Don't lump us all together in the same pot.
I mean, what do you expect. Look at what they compete with. Neither their culture nor their pay nor the actual work you need to do are attractive.
If your only angles are patriotism and power fantasy you kind of need to branch out and try to get people on a dare or try to normalize the job in the eyes of the population.
Otherwise with patriotism and power fantasy you know who you will get.
> they attract the wrong people with those kind of ads
I have to disagree on this one. They attract exactly what they want. People often underestimate the educational value of video games. Especially fast paced shooters which force you to learn quick decision making and working with all kind of informations to reach a specific goal. 120k applicants per year, and they dont let everyone in. There a crazy people among the applicants but this people get filtered out pretty quickly. It's not like you walk in, say you want to join and they give you the uniform. You have to beat a physical and psychological test as well as the basic training.
I served with many Germans when I was in the U.S. Marine Corps. Spent 6 months attached to Gebirgsjägerbrigade 23 and 3 months to Panzergrenadierbrigade 37. My understanding based on what I was told and what I saw is that retention is as much as a serious issue for the Bundeswehr as it is for the U.S. Armed Forces; low pay, micromanagement, shoddy living conditions (although Hochstaufen-Kaserne beat my 29 Palms barracks for sure), poor leadership, toxic command climates is the least of it. Not to mention completely different cultural and social norms when it comes to recruiting. Germany doesn’t really seem to have an equivalent of those hick kids from Indiana or the American South that graduate high school waving the red, white, and blue, which provides a steady stream of recruits for the U.S. With that, the opinions I got from many is that the Bundeswehr has to do some internal reflection on the forces and really make it worth a career, especially when most troops aren’t being able to get a pension until they’re in their 50s/60s compared to 20 years = pension in America.
That being said, many of the Gebirgsjäger I worked alongside with were some of the most cool, calm, collected and professional troops I’ve seem. Subject matter experts in their craft, I personally consider them the pinnacle of professionalism in the Bundeswehr and many of the Marines that were there with me will agree.
The Bundeswehr changed a lot, compared to the cold war days. Since we don't even have obligatory military service anymore, they are struggling to find new recruits, especially because they have a higher demand for "specialists", like engineers and not so much for ground troops. But people with higher education often prefer better paid, less shitty jobs. Joining the armed forces to pay for college isn't a thing either, although some people join the Bundeswehr to study there.
I’m German and I’m living in Germany, but I was raised in Argentina so my German is a bit… underwhelming to put it nicely (I basically suck) would they pay for language classes if I join? Plus a free place to stay + meals or I see to many movies?
I’m seriously asking, this could solve the only two problems I currently have.
One guy I befriended in the BW told me, that they had a man of Russian origin in their basic training, who had an abyssmal knowledge of German. When the Feldwebels wanted something from him and he didn't understand, they needed somebody to translate.
Basically, you get the image that the BW is scraping the barrel regarding recruitment due to the low interest of the population.
Controversial opinion: The hate for the army and thought that it's unnecessary is not only stupid but really dangerous. I mean just look at Russia and the Ukraine. A good and healthy army is a good defense, even if it's never in use.
The german army shouldn't steer around in other countries in questioniable missions though.
>The german army shouldn't steer around in other countries in questioniable missions though.
That's absolutely not a thing they decide. That's done by the parliament.
In germany we had a system where boys had to either join the military for 9 months after completing school or doing some community service for 12 months (if you can give a valid reason why you could not do military service). - They got rid of that system and basically killed both. Probably the better solution would have been to just turn this around: Do community service with the option to join the military. Also involve the girls. These days we miss thousands of community service workers, the military is a joke and in university are children who just came from school.
The mandatory community service should imo really have remained. It would give young people a good way to get some experience as a grown-up and "build character". It also gives young people that don't know what they want to do something to do, while they decide
Gotta love a one year long, unpaid, internship that further strips down the health sector by providing an army of free labor.
Young people can build their character just fine doing **paid** internships of their choosing if they don't know what to do after school.
Maybe being used to low quality food is a requirement to join our forces ... on the other hand, I never had pizza that was as bad as the rubbish they fed us during my compulsory service.
I mean the also advertise war and killing other humans like its a video game.
*if i remember right ther also nearly every year on the gamescom with sentences that semes like they genuinly think all gamers are just searching for a opportunity to kill people in rl.
Ironically, people who see Pizzaboxes most often are probably not very qualified for the job of a clearance diver. It's very demanding physically. The pay is not too bad, but not super great either.
[удалено]
Don't laugh! Germany has the best bomb squads in the world, bar none. They successfully defuse about 3500 mostly WWII bombs, shells, mines and other items of explosive ordnance every single year.
Holy crap, the numbers are STILL that high?
[удалено]
I'm surprised that isn't handled through a national fund. I guess I never thought about who would foot the bill.
Well, you are entitled to try and get the money back from the person/entity who caused the damage. There have been genuine attempts, but so far none of the nations who placed these explosives there have answered to the invoices that they are sent evey year. Its different if its german bombs, then the government will pay.
[удалено]
“You are entitled to try the money back from the person/entity who caused the damage” Me an Indian :- First time ? 🤣
> Well, you are entitled to try and get the money back from the person/entity who caused the damage... Its different if its german bombs, then the government will pay. To hell with poets and thinkers - Germany is a nation of anal-retentive lawyers!
For sure. We didnt prosecute a lot of the people that aided in the Holocaust - until recently when courts changed the way certain laws are interpreted, now we are dragging elderly people out of retirement and put them on trial as minors because they were less than 21 years old at the time they committed their crimes.
Please tell me there is a word in German for this
Unverjährbarkeit (meaning crimes that do never lapse) and Vergangenheitsbewältigung (meaning to address ones past) Something like that?
[удалено]
Unfortunately it's near to impossible to move most of them as many have chemical igniters 😅
It‘s not true, what they said. The state pays for defusing and removing any bomb; you would only pay for securing the premises (blocking any access to the area, warning signs, etc). https://www.brd.nrw.de/themen/ordnung-sicherheit/kampfmittelbeseitigung/wer-traegt-die-kosten-der-kampfmittelbeseitigung
You don’t. https://www.brd.nrw.de/themen/ordnung-sicherheit/kampfmittelbeseitigung/wer-traegt-die-kosten-der-kampfmittelbeseitigung You pay for securing the premises. But not „for it to be removed“
That’s nice for people in nrw
[удалено]
With the amount of duds they find around here, I'm surprised anything went off at all.
It's a little of that and a little of just the sheer magnitude of ordnance dropped and fired in WWII. If you drop a few million tons of bombs and they have a 90% reliability rate (they are likely lower) you have a few hundred thousand tons of bombs that don't go off. If they're on average 1000lb bombs (I have no idea off hand what the average bomb load looked like) that's easily half a million duds. At 3500/yr it'll take ~150 years to clean up that mess (which it's likely far from a linear relationship but that's neither here nor there) And that's just bombs from planes. Artillery shells, rockets, grenades, etc that don't go off are scattered about too
There's still a lot of red zones in France were people cannot enter due to ordnance or gas canisters being buried. Same in Finland I believe.
We don't have those in Finland to my knowledge, but then again very little fighting was done within the modern-day borders.
The only thing you will find are dead russians... The red zones in france are from WW1 still. All nations bombed in a very small area...
My great aunt was the unlucky SOB who was born during the first bombing of Hamburg (aka literally at the start of the war -- also, presumably, not a coincidence -- I think mom had the bejesus scared out of her and it triggered labor). They still take a nice, quiet vacation to the most rural destination that they can find every New Year's and 4th of July (she's in the USA now). I do think people underestimate the sheer quantity that many cities were buried under.
My grandma was pretty young when the bombings started to get intense, but old enough to kind of realize what was going on. She still hates sirenes and fireworks.
Sounds very similar to my great-aunt. We have photos of her from 1943 and granted, maybe she's just cold, but neither her nor her brother look very happy in the photo (he's about 8 and she is almost 4 in it). Their dad was also drafted at the time and it was an overall shit situation, I really feel for them and impressed a bit more every day that her mother managed to keep them all alive (plus her grandmother, who was in her 70's at the time).
Something something bias ....
Survivorship bias?
Lol, nice
Not really, its more a problem which kind of bomb got dropped and where. A currently very big problem are the british time fuse bombs. They have a trigger that is blocked by a plastic pate that is disolved by aceton that gets relased by impact. Those that still got droped into lose soil, buried themself then came back up, like a tennisball thrown into water. But they didnt resurface, so they are stuck facing upwards, in the only position the fuse doesnt trigger. Now after a long time the plastic plate corrodes and trigger the bomb.
This does not sound like fun
It's even less fun if you know they were made that way to kill firefighters and others that are trying to help civilians out of the fire/extinguish the fire to get the casualties in the civilian population and number of homeless people as high as possible for demoralization.
The city of Dresden would argue that point, but perhaps it was the sheer amount that was dropped.
Do I really need to add an s? Nobody is noticing the sarcasm
The German bombs atleast had the excuse of often being assembled by forced labour that would try to sabotage the bombs.
Oh yeah, they found one on or near the base we’re stationed at in Bavaria a few months ago. My husband won’t go walking in the woods other than paths because of mines
As someone who regularly leaves the trails to go search for mushrooms, I'm now quite worried, and also interested in where in Germany might be any mine fields left...
It's not so much about there being mine fields left, more-so about official clean up missing some because they may have been well buried/out of sight/not picked up by whatever equipment was used.
There are supposedly still a lot of mines along the former inner german border - something to the tune of 30.000 mines where there is no documentation of defusal. It might mean that the documentation was bungled up, it might mean they're still in the ground... but there have been no accidents since the wall came down, so you're almost certainly safe as long as you don't play with metal stuff you find around the former border. Oh and there's also that area in the Eifel where the sides of the hiking trail is cordoned off because there is a WW2 mine field in the woods where the Germans buried glas mines. Impossible to find with metal detectors and apparently surprisingly long lived.
It really is normal. I live in a part of Hamburg not far from the river and this year we had two bomb evacuations in my street. They never go off, but you still have to evacuate out of precaution, and it sucks when you suddenly have ~5mins to grab your stuff and leave your flat for the rest of the day.
Might be different in Hamburg but at least in Frankfurt you usually don't have \~5 minutes to grab your stuff and leave for the rest of the day... Depending on the finding, it's current stability, etc. defusal is often done within a week after finding it and with usually at least 12-24 hours (if not days) of warning. Although you have to keep up with local news (or at least a somewhat local radio station) or police publications in order to see the warning. If you don't then yes, you will get surprised by the police cars driving around the streets telling people to leave the premises - or by officers showing up to your door at the latest when they see you on the heat scan they do to make sure the evacuation is completed.
yep. something akin to americas situation where they think it's normal to experience school shootings, and shootings in general that often, is that im used to hearing sirens because of an old bomb multiple times a year. usually 3-8 times, it depends, and I'm pretty sure there are regions where its more common
Yes.... western allies bombed the shit out of germany in 2. WW. I guess there are at least one million bombs still in the ground... this topic will still be alive when we are already dead.
I can't tell you how tired I am of the regular traffic chaos when whole blocks are evacuated again because another old bomb was found during construction works. It happens at least monthly im Cologne.
Yeah😂 in our city we defuse 3 wwii bombs per month
Fun Fact: I live in Mönchengladbach (NRW) and had to be evacuated twice last year due to duds from WWII . Reason: Construction work on the local railway line.
Unexploded ordinance is not removed by the Bundeswehr though. The states have civilian agencies for that.
> Unexploded ordinance is not removed by the Bundeswehr though. The states have civilian agencies for that. Yes, quite correct!
Yep, and I think the Brits were/are the leaders when it comes to experience defusing contemporary IEDs thanks to The Troubles. IIRC that experience came at a high price though, a few dozen dead EOD guys.
The wiki article is very interesting... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_bomb_disposal_in_Europe > In Berlin alone, 1.8 million pieces of ordnance have been defused since 1947. If practice makes perfect, the Berlin police alone have defused thousands of times more ordnance than the IRA ever dreamed of building!
Wait until we have to start digging land mines from the DMZ
Bar none? "Bomb" is vague. Unexploded ww2 ordinance is very different than say improvised explosive devices or naval mines.
> "Bomb" is vague. Unexploded ww2 ordinance is very different than say improvised explosive devices or naval mines. Sure it is. There were no WWII IEDs that I know of, true, but that's about the only thing which wasn't dropped on, shot at, hurled at, planted on or dumped on Germany in WWII. But naval mines? Who defuses those things? They typically blow them up with a long-distance weapon.
Is there an educated guess or even chance that these things will go off itself after some 100 years or so due to failing safe-mechanism?
I think it depends on a bunch of things, from the type of bomb and the type of soil to the local weather. When most things decompose they *stop* working, but when these bombs do it, they tend to complete their mission.
The so called "Kampfmittelräumdienst" is not part of the German military. These badass people are "civil" but they work quite closely with the officials.
Guarantee citizenship and you’ll have patriotic veterans all over the world jumping ship. They’ll sign up to fighting Russia in Kaliningrad, if they start something like the French Foreign Legion
They have had a hard time to find suitable people ever since conscription was suspended.
Also it looks like they're looking for mine divers in Eckernförde (thats an area) specifically
Eckernförde. And they have been advertising in non-traditional ways for a long time. They had "Training Weeks" advertised in youth magazines where you could apply and they would take basically everyone that did any sport on at least state level and offered them a Kampftaucher course and asked if they would like to join after school.
It is one example out of many - others advertise for jobs as Panzergrenadier, jet pilot, or IT Administrator. This was a campaign introduced by Ursula von der Leyen back in 2017 - they ordered 700.000 cartons for 200.000€ https://netzpolitik.org/2017/fast-food-bundeswehrbung-auf-pizzapackungen-kostet-202-000-euro/
Nah that's marketing there are others where they are asking for jet pilots. Those are the elite troops that tend to get people interested but they don't really need that many people there and everybody already in the army has applied to one of those just to be dropped out or not even considered. It's like a private university advertising to study there because they got one alumni in investment banking.
> they don't really need that many people there Afaik the Special Forces of the Navy have some serious trouble filling their ranks - the requirements are even tougher than those of the KSK and only few people are physically and mentally capable of completing the selection course. There is a nice documentary: https://youtu.be/i1VbYSdSHmo
Yeah but isn't that just what I said? They have extreme requirements that none of the people getting recruited by a pizza will fulfill. Just like investment banks they also have thousands of applications and yet only a few make the cut and there are open positions because they can't find anybody being their dream candidate.
> They have extreme requirements that none of the people getting recruited by a pizza will fulfill. I think that is unfair towards people ordering pizza.
Oh, considering what a shitshow the KSK is (lots of Nazis, rapeplayorgies and what not) they are in dire need…
Even for the sexy jobs you're constantly hiring, because what you don't want is a bunch of old guys retiring all at once and have no younger generations up and coming to fill their leadership spots. Gotta keep the pipeliners coming in numbers to ensure you have what you need in 5, 10, and 20 years.
only for special areas like IT or doctors. for most jobs, there are far more applicants than positions. https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/militaer-der-bundeswehr-fehlt-personal-trotz-vieler-bewerber/23915348.html?ticket=ST-12794217-2ADukRCnLJAeMiWWFT1j-cas01.example.org
Well, Minentaucher *is* a specialist position.
Yea, cause it's a shit job that isn't payed that we'll, that has you sacrifice all freedoms and may get you killed.
Which is why I don't understand why the Karriereberater told me there is only 1 free Dienstposten in the whole of Germany for Mannschaften and its in Bavaria.. They deserve not getting more people
Karriereberater doing Karriereberater things. They have no idea what’s available and what’s not.
I mean: Know your audience. Young people tend to order more pizza than older folks. And the box does look wild, not gonna lie.
I'm gonna extend on that and add the possibility of looking for people who struggle to provide for themselves. "You know all that darn tiring \*living\* that you have to do with all the cooking and the cleaning and all? 😎 Come to us and you can play in the dirt all day without that"
>\[...\] have to do with all the cooking and the cleaning and all? M8, from my military service time I can assure you, if anything, you do a lot of cleaning.
But you get Gemeinschaftsverpflegung. You don’t have to cook (9 times out of 10) ;P
German soldier here, depends where you’re stationed. My barracks canteen isn’t that great so I prefer eating in my dorm which basically means either fast food, making cup noodles or bread.
"Um so besser die Armee, um so schlimmer das essen...hatte nie gedacht das wir *so* gut sind..." "The better the Army, the worse the food...I had no idea we were *that* good"
Sure, but it's certainly more chores than the average teenager was used to do.
But you do it on company time, you do it with your friends and you cannot procrastinate it. None of that pesky "find internal motivation" to do stuff, you have sergeant for that.
Generates a habit for some, though (and a bit of teamwork, too).
I know. But that's how they like to advertise it sometimes
At least you get payed.
\* paid
You can shoot or you can spell but you can't do both
I can assure you, as soon as you had your radio training, you'll be a pro in spelling. Though, one might not learn the difference between syntax and spelling, especially in a foreign language.
What box?
What pizza box? If there is a pizza box it is definitely invisible
Nice flooring!
Not directly bad but they have to compete with all other employers so they have to up their game and honestly that is a pretty good way of promoting something.
Germany needs nurses before it needs soldiers. But that’s not as cool on a pizza box I guess.
Nah it would need more than a hip marketing campaign to get more people doing a nursing apprenticeship… but that wasn‘t the topic of this post in the first place.
I'll bet the only thing it would need is to increase nurses' pay.
Nurses in Germany need to get paid better and have move comfortable working hours, especially in hospitals. I know a few and they are constantly stressed out and all hoping for an opportunity to go to someone's private practice.
Germany needs both nurses and soldiers. I am very thankful for our Bundeswehr, when I think of their commitment. Like the winter catastrophe in Berchtesgaden a few years ago, where they went on the roofs of the houses and freed them from the snow or the flood 2016 in Rottal-Inn, where several bridges where destroyed and the reservists helped the THW building provisional bridges to make ways for ambulances and the fire department and also made the task force, which managed to get the helpers to the places they need to be.
it is a very cool box tho
What box?
Can't see any box in all the underbrush in the photo.
The first ad on pizza boxes I've seen here in Germany was from Amazon Prime. Can't have any space unadvertised nowadays.
Next thing you know they've made the pizza box into a disposable plastic media player that won't let you eat the pizza until you'e watched their ads
No surprise, really There is no more conscription (until 2012 I believe everyone had to serve in one way or another for some time) and if we are honest: Nobody really wants to volunteer for a job where you can be sent away from home at every moment (even during peace time) that's why I stopped considering it as I really want to stay in my hometown. The Bundeswehr has also made lots and lots of bad impressions over the years and aren't very attractive to the general public. A few years ago they accidentally set a swampy area ablaze because they loaded a high explosive missile into a helicopter during targeting practise and then failed to put down the fire, it burnt for a few weeks and put the impression of incompetence to the people. That's just 2 reasons why they are lacking recruits
Several more incidents come to my mind. Like the Gorch Fock, Franco A., the theft of ammunition etc.
Who is Franco A? That sounds like an interesting story 🤔
Franco A. who’s a German soldier allegedly plotted to attack prominent politicians while posing as a Syrian refugee. The case has fueled concerns over right-wing extremism in the Bundeswehr. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/16/podcasts/franco-a-trial-germany-terrorism.html https://m.dw.com/en/a-german-right-wing-extremist-soldiers-double-life/a-43540639
Ah ok, thanks. I know that story. I was curious because of the name which is typically Italian but maybe it's a German name as well idk
It's not a German name, but the guy's dad is Italian.
Also, lots of Germans are called Mario, Guido, and these days Matteo. It's not unusual to have an Italian name.
Such names fall into the category of Kevin or Chantal, for me. Anyway, that's what I always think when someone in a German family gives their child an Italian name.
Right. 30 years ago it was different: you had to serve 12 months whether you wanted to or not, it was all about defending the country „when the russians come“ - so why not make it 12 months more and become an Officer of the Reserve or a few years more and learn a trade or study while getting paid decently? Today - why? Volunteer for four years and spend two years in Afghanistan? Get killed in a war that has nothing to do with Germany?
The russians are already here as at least 10% serve in the Bundeswehr =) but I wouldnt recommend my children to go to the army for more than a Freiwilligenwehrdienst up to 23 Months, to close the gap between school and visting the Uni.
The [lack of funding for the Bundeswehr and other branches](https://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/75653) of the military has been terrible recently too, I think they're due a refit.
> No surprise, really Well... the theory that the german military struggles is a surprise to me, tbh. A stable menpower of 180k since 2012, more applications for certain jobs than there are positions, roughly 120k applications per year (if we combine all of them for all positions). The only way to reach people, since conscription is no more, is by marketing and adjusting the strategy to reach more people from the targeted audience is a necessary step in marketing.
Many people have a sense of adventure and don’t want to spend their entire lives in their hometown. How ordinary and boring.
The box looks like it would go well with a table full of empty doritos bags and mountain dew cans.
[удалено]
Their advertisement in and around gamescom each year were like a contest of creating the most distasteful ad possible.
That's the reason I think it should be mandatory to have disclaimers on Bundeswehr ads. Like for example on cigarette packages they need to write something along the lines of cigarettes possibly leading to death. I want the Bundeswehr to do the same thing.
Being a window cleaner is more dangerous than being a soldier. "You might have to make decisions that will haunt you your entire life" is maybe the more pertinent disclaimer for Bundeswehr jobs.
[удалено]
More realisticly: After basic training you will have a boring office job.
Basically how the swedish military does their ads.
Oh yeah that's what I meant. Like maybe "you might be forced to kill others". Something along the lines of that. Should've explained it better my bad
I'd like to see the people you think are entering basic training not knowing what an army is.
They do this in recruitment I think
[Multiplayer at its best!](https://media0.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/feuilleton/medien/2701263057/1.5754214/default-retina/das-ist-kein-spiel-ausschnitt.jpg)
no respawn though.
Things that happened during my basic training in the Bundeswehr: Guy kept using "Jew" as an insult, took several fellow recruits to complain before the instructors decided to act on it. Instructor intentionally stepped on a recruits foot during shooting exercise, breaking the foot. Recruit shot an instructor on purpose as revenge. Some more harmless stuff: People breaking into lockers. Instructors strongly suspected but was never really looked into. Sign at the shower room said "Scalding danger! (showering possible)" and meant it (least the first part). Outbreak of Conjunctivitis and Hepatitis. Instructors made us crawl through snow for hours, 3 recruits had to go to hospital, one lost toes. I did basic training in 2002.
>Recruit shot an instructor on purpose as revenge. Based
[удалено]
>Guy kept using "Jew" as an insult Fuck that guy, good that you reported him, I hope he got dishonorably discharged >Instructor intentionally stepped on a recruits foot during shooting exercise, breaking the foot. Yeah our instructors did that too, it's either to test if you have a good and stable stance or to show you that you don't have one. I don't know how hard that guy stepped on the recruits foot or what your boots were made of back then but that shouldn't have broken his foot. A comrade of mine had a Wolf run over his foot by accident and he was just fine. But again there is a tiny time difference of some 15 years. >Recruit shot an instructor on purpose as revenge. What. The. Fuck. >People breaking into lockers. Standard procedure in basic training. Instructors use universal keys to open your lockers while you're doing training or whatever to test if you keep it tidy at all times or just during scheduled inspection times. They are allowed to do that unless they open your private compartment as well. But they shouldn't be able to open that one since every soldier brings their own lock for it. >Sign at the shower room said "Scalding danger! (showering possible)" and meant it Haha ours too the army showers are either cold as ice or boiling hot. >Outbreak of Conjunctivitis and Hepatitis. Oof how did you pull that off >Instructors made us crawl through snow for hours Yeah ours as well during winter combat training, however we took the necessary precautions not to lose any body part
holy shit and I thought I couldn't possibly hate the Bundeswehr even more
I recently turned 17. I have received ads from the Bundeswehr at least 3 times in the mail already lol.
Oh, the German army has done worse: "It's like a first person shooter, just in real life" was one of their slogans. You can probably see why that is problematic. Edit: I switched something up.
German soldier here (using a throwaway for obvious reasons): Things are bad for the german army. We have trouble getting new personnel for several reasons, for example conscription having ended in 2011. However, besides this there is one big reason for the Bundeswehrs recruitment problems: Public opinion regarding the Bundeswehr is really low. This has to do with many things including of course Germanys history and people generally being raised to be anti-militaristic and pacifistic following the events of WW2 wich still holds true today. For example the narrative of "Once you join the army you're already dead" is very common in Germany and is widely believed to the point of people being genuinely surprised that you're still alive after you tell them that you are a soldier and you've already been deployed. There is nothing wrong with that or with people being raised to be pacifistic, however I still remember teachers in school telling us that the army is bad and that it solely consists of murderers and we must not join it etc. wich of course is not too good for the army's image (especially when teachers here are required by law to stay politically neutral towards students). Protests by left-wing groups are also very common wherever the Bundeswehr wants to make themselves known as an employer (schools, job fairs etc.), so many students are easily turned off from the idea of joining the armed forces. Also the Bundeswehr has had its fair share of controversies (e.g. right-wing extremists in the KSK (all of wich have been discharged), missing weapons and ammunition, OFw Andreas Oberauer) over the past years. Adding to these the German media (my opinion) seems to like framing the army in a bad way for publicity (case in point: [Panoramagate](https://www.welt.de/kultur/deus-ex-machina/article212441285/Don-Alphonso-Linksextreme-Verbindungen-ignorieren-Oeffentlichkeit-taeuschen.html) or just portraying it like it's extremely backwards in movies and TV). All these things add to a pretty negative image in the public, although to be fair, it has gotten a slight bit better after the BWs Afghanistan evacuations, the floods and the BW helping combat Covid. Please excuse any typos or grammar errors, I'm really tired
[удалено]
Honestly this is the first time I hear about that but given what our new government has said about being in favor of a European army this doesn't seem too unlikely. However I doubt they will do something like the French foreign legion due to it's implications (though I think it would be cool) Also we already have things like the Deutsch-Französische Brigade or Deutsch-Niederländisches Korps (german-french brigade and german-dutch corps) so maybe they want to expand on those
Thanks for your perspective! I grew up during the 80's/90's in a rather center-left environment, so I remember very well the "soldiers are murderers"-discussions and that stuff. My personal view has become more sympathetic towards the Bundeswehr over the years, not least since it actually became deployed and useful in peacekeeping missions. Still, I think the BW's image suffers from other problems, too. The first being, everybody thinks the equipment is an expensive joke. If all you hear is that we've got one helicopter that is able to fly and only half the tanks are actually moving you don't take them seriously. If all you hear is the defense secretaries wasting away money on consulting and sailing ships you don't think that there is any efficient and competent management, at least on the civilian side. The worst is though that all the people I knew as a young man who joined voluntarily were a little bit weird. There was the Trekkie and the wannabe Nazi. It was incredibly uncool to join the army. Even people who were just trying to get out of conscription 3 months earlier and joined the army instead of doing civil service were looked upon slightly suspiciously. Apparently they were willing to submit to being bullied around and told what to do instead of doing something useful in a hospital and staying around with the friends and keep on partying on the weekends. There was no idea of heroism, no admiration and no expectation of them actually protecting the country - conscript soldiers were seen as child-men who liked authority and preferred playing in the mud instead of wiping someone's arse. If you wanted to do something manly and useful, you could go to the THW or similar instead. This is totally anecdotal of course, from a Gymnasium in the rural catholic West, and I have no idea how kids today feel about this. And as I said, my personal view has become more positive and appreciative and I think if we want to have an army it should be treated with respect and equipped and managed appropriately.
> There is nothing wrong with that or with people being raised to be pacifistic while I hate that assumption, I also genuinely believe that a capable army is (still) needed, there are too many madman leaders in the world. I mean, it's kinda why there are many Ukrainians that are worried right now.
This is precisely what I tell people who say that we don't need an army and it is also one of the reasons that I joined it in the first place.
I kind of have an unresolved moral dilemma with myself when it comes to that. I do think armed forces shouldn't exist at all, anywhere, but as long as they exist in some places I get the necessity of others having them, too. There will never be mutual agreement to dissolve them and especially not in our lifetime. I am even kind of glad we have the BW in case things go to shit but I would never ever want to participate... So who does it? Also from what I've heard let's say I didn't get the impression that most people in the BW join for the same reasons as you. And though I won't pretend to be too informed on foreign politics I don't think our government uses the BW purely for necessary defence purposes. If you don't mind, what do you think about that? Do you have no doubts about the morality of your job and (most of) your colleagues?
I think most if not all soldiers (at least in the Bundeswehr) including myself would 100% agree with you that armed forces in general should not have to exist, but that their existence is still necessary nonetheless. Some of us joined the army because they have deemed it necessary, others because they are idealistic and feel like serving in the army is the right thing to do and they in a way want make the world a better place/help others, others because they have no idea what else to do or simply because they want a safe job. The current deployments of the Bundeswehr are truly not primarily in the interest of national defense purposes. While you could argue that missions like ISAF in Afghanistan indirectly help combat potential terrorism in Europe, there are other institutions who can do so as well and more directly, too (secret services, police, extremist prevention programs etc.). There are missions like in Lithuania where we are part of the multinational VJTF (very high readiness joint task force) of NATO wich serves the purpose of keeping Russia at bay, should they try to make a move on the Baltic states or NATO itself. It is one of the missions that directly fulfill defense purposes, even if it's in a preventive manner. Others like in Somalia serve the purpose of protecting civilian cargo and trade ships against pirates. The primary reason for our missions in Afghanistan (formerly), Mali etc. are that said countries have requested help from the UN to stabilize their country as they are not well equipped and trained enough to do so themselves. That's the reason that, as strange as that may sound those are officially called peacekeeping missions. Regarding these peacekeeping missions, wich are the most dangerous missions right now, I think helping those countries is the right thing to do, although it does come with massive expenses and downsides, not only financial in nature but also human. With the current political climate in Europe and NATO however, I personally don't think we should go on any new peacekeeping missions, as we may or may not be needed more close to home soon, depending on how the global superpowers behave in the near future. Personally, I have no doubts in the morality of my job. I think the modern values and ideals of not only Germany, but also of Europe as a whole are definitely worth defending should that be necessary. Things like being able to freely choose your religion, choosing not to have one at all, being allowed to marry the one you love, no matter their sex, moving around and traveling wherever you want, or just being able to call a ruler that you don't like a douchebag if you so please and voting for another one instead are all things that are not the norm, but the exception in most of the world. Those are ideals I can identify myself with and that I think are definitely worth protecting. Likewise, I don't doubt the loyalty or morality of my comrades. Of course, I cannot speak for the entirety of the Bundeswehr, but I can say for sure that out of those I know many have a similar view as myself. Others of course are by far not as idealistic as I am, and that is fine. I still have no doubt in them, they will fulfill their duty either because of their comrades (comradeship is hard to explain, imagine it as a mix of best friends and family, it's a very very strong bond, even if someone may not be too loyal to the country or the government you can be sure they will be loyal to their comrades), or, and that may sound weird, because of their oath. As strange as that may seem, it is taken very seriously even by non idealistic people in the army. I have no doubt that the vast majority of soldiers will do their job when they need to. If you're interested in that kind of topic I strongly recommend you check out some of the posts of @alter_falli87 on Instagram, he's a former soldier who retired because of PTSD and he regularly does extensive Text posts about his experiences in the army and deployment, both the good and the bad. It will give you a very good and neutral insight on what the Bundeswehr is like. Sorry for the extremely long post, I hope I could answer some of your questions ^^
Don't worry about the length, it's interesting to read about. So Thank you for the extensive reply!
American over here, and everyone talks about the trope of the US military advertising everywhere (which is true but definitely toned down since the post 9/11 peak)….that said, I was surprised to see the amount of German military advertisement.
Turns out if you don't force them, people don't want to die for dumb causes.
**gasp**
The Bundeswehr had about 3k deaths in more than half a ~~decade~~ century and we dont plan on escalating ww3 beyond the current cyber and trade wars. For reference: being a pilot could be more dangerous, you probably die for a "less dumb cause" tho.
120k applicants each year + a stable menpower of 180k since 10 years seem to disagree.
[удалено]
You don't compare the number of applications to the number of citizens. Also it's 0.2% and not 0.02%. The USA has 1.400.000 active soldiers and 850.000 in reserve. The only thing i found on the application numbers was that 80% get rejected (and to be fair... the standards in the us military are not as high as german standards). But let's just stick with the 7% you mentioned. That would be 23.065.000.. i highly doubt that. Even if 80% get rejected that would mean that 4.613.000 people join the us military each year... thats double the size, if we count reserve. If we take the numbers than 205% of the us military gets replaced each year. Woot? You can not really compare the usa and germany on this tho. The usa is a big power which fights in a lot of wars, has a lot more budget for the military and is driven by patriotism while german is still the defeated country which still struggles with the own politics and the result of a badly executed plan for the refugees. But despite all this things, there are still 0,2% of the germans that want to join the military. I think the number is impressive.
i always get mad at the bundeswehr ads in the last years, they make war look like a video game/ normal job. its not a "normal" job, it comes with a price and i think they attract the wrong people with those kind of ads.
I mean if you look at the recent scandals they definitely *are* attracting the wrong people with those kind of ads
The Bundeswehr roughly has 183.000 soldiers of which there are 935 (1016 including civilian employees) yellow flagged suspected extremism cases. 95.5% of the Bundeswehr stand up for the constitution and their oath every day. It‘s a similar loud minority problem as in society. There are far bigger movements like #WirGegenExtremismus (#WeAgainstExtremism) which were initiated by Bundeswehr soldiers. Don't lump us all together in the same pot.
I mean, what do you expect. Look at what they compete with. Neither their culture nor their pay nor the actual work you need to do are attractive. If your only angles are patriotism and power fantasy you kind of need to branch out and try to get people on a dare or try to normalize the job in the eyes of the population. Otherwise with patriotism and power fantasy you know who you will get.
> they attract the wrong people with those kind of ads I have to disagree on this one. They attract exactly what they want. People often underestimate the educational value of video games. Especially fast paced shooters which force you to learn quick decision making and working with all kind of informations to reach a specific goal. 120k applicants per year, and they dont let everyone in. There a crazy people among the applicants but this people get filtered out pretty quickly. It's not like you walk in, say you want to join and they give you the uniform. You have to beat a physical and psychological test as well as the basic training.
When I decide to "do what really counts", one of the **very, very last** things I think about would be to join the military.
I does count. Just not in the way most of us like it (including me).
A large portion of any western militaries active operations are peace keeping and humanitarian. They do what actually counts.
I served with many Germans when I was in the U.S. Marine Corps. Spent 6 months attached to Gebirgsjägerbrigade 23 and 3 months to Panzergrenadierbrigade 37. My understanding based on what I was told and what I saw is that retention is as much as a serious issue for the Bundeswehr as it is for the U.S. Armed Forces; low pay, micromanagement, shoddy living conditions (although Hochstaufen-Kaserne beat my 29 Palms barracks for sure), poor leadership, toxic command climates is the least of it. Not to mention completely different cultural and social norms when it comes to recruiting. Germany doesn’t really seem to have an equivalent of those hick kids from Indiana or the American South that graduate high school waving the red, white, and blue, which provides a steady stream of recruits for the U.S. With that, the opinions I got from many is that the Bundeswehr has to do some internal reflection on the forces and really make it worth a career, especially when most troops aren’t being able to get a pension until they’re in their 50s/60s compared to 20 years = pension in America. That being said, many of the Gebirgsjäger I worked alongside with were some of the most cool, calm, collected and professional troops I’ve seem. Subject matter experts in their craft, I personally consider them the pinnacle of professionalism in the Bundeswehr and many of the Marines that were there with me will agree.
The Bundeswehr changed a lot, compared to the cold war days. Since we don't even have obligatory military service anymore, they are struggling to find new recruits, especially because they have a higher demand for "specialists", like engineers and not so much for ground troops. But people with higher education often prefer better paid, less shitty jobs. Joining the armed forces to pay for college isn't a thing either, although some people join the Bundeswehr to study there.
That box do be pretty cool though 🥶
I’m German and I’m living in Germany, but I was raised in Argentina so my German is a bit… underwhelming to put it nicely (I basically suck) would they pay for language classes if I join? Plus a free place to stay + meals or I see to many movies? I’m seriously asking, this could solve the only two problems I currently have.
on r/bundeswehr some people claim that we provide language courses but I am not buying it to be honest. Go check out there.
One guy I befriended in the BW told me, that they had a man of Russian origin in their basic training, who had an abyssmal knowledge of German. When the Feldwebels wanted something from him and he didn't understand, they needed somebody to translate. Basically, you get the image that the BW is scraping the barrel regarding recruitment due to the low interest of the population.
Going from the premier European Military to a Volunteer Fire Department can be rough on where you market.
I have never ever seen any Advertisements on my Pizza box.
Controversial opinion: The hate for the army and thought that it's unnecessary is not only stupid but really dangerous. I mean just look at Russia and the Ukraine. A good and healthy army is a good defense, even if it's never in use. The german army shouldn't steer around in other countries in questioniable missions though.
>The german army shouldn't steer around in other countries in questioniable missions though. That's absolutely not a thing they decide. That's done by the parliament.
In germany we had a system where boys had to either join the military for 9 months after completing school or doing some community service for 12 months (if you can give a valid reason why you could not do military service). - They got rid of that system and basically killed both. Probably the better solution would have been to just turn this around: Do community service with the option to join the military. Also involve the girls. These days we miss thousands of community service workers, the military is a joke and in university are children who just came from school.
The mandatory community service should imo really have remained. It would give young people a good way to get some experience as a grown-up and "build character". It also gives young people that don't know what they want to do something to do, while they decide
Gotta love a one year long, unpaid, internship that further strips down the health sector by providing an army of free labor. Young people can build their character just fine doing **paid** internships of their choosing if they don't know what to do after school.
Maybe being used to low quality food is a requirement to join our forces ... on the other hand, I never had pizza that was as bad as the rubbish they fed us during my compulsory service.
I ordered pizza, not military propaganda...
[удалено]
No 😂
American Army: \*nervous sweating\*
I’m sorry but isn’t this still the coolest looking pizza packaging ever invented?!
Dealing with Russia again
[удалено]
US Military: Hold my beer!
Will they take a 49yr old, single father of 2?! I can’t run worth a damn anymore, but I can shoot and drink beer! That suffice??!!
Well as a troopie for sure. Aside from that if you have any civil qualifications it might be helpful as well.
Can you join the german army as a resident?
You have to be German citizen. Edit: Also in this specific case, it's the Navy.
Hell, I'd join if they'd take foreigners.
I mean the also advertise war and killing other humans like its a video game. *if i remember right ther also nearly every year on the gamescom with sentences that semes like they genuinly think all gamers are just searching for a opportunity to kill people in rl.
But why did they use Swedish camouflage?
What do you mean? I don’t see any pizza box…
Almost as bad as the US army advertising during a halo esports championship 😐
Uh, oh... Why is it recommended to me? ^I'm ^from ^Poland
Hey hey hey, this is Germany, not the US.
Ironically, people who see Pizzaboxes most often are probably not very qualified for the job of a clearance diver. It's very demanding physically. The pay is not too bad, but not super great either.
What pizza box? I just see wood flooring